12/11/2012 Newsnight


12/11/2012

Analysis of the day's headlines, with Emily Maitlis. The BBC tries to purge its management and Abu Qatada is out of jail. Plus, is the chancellor planning more cuts?


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Transcript


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This programme coin tains scenes of repetitive flashing images.

:00:11.:00:18.

After the apology, the resignation, and now a management Petersburg --

:00:19.:00:22.

purge of sorts, account BBC work properly.

:00:22.:00:27.

The BBC pay off the previous Director-General with double what

:00:27.:00:32.

he's entitled. To REPORTER: Did you ever say I'm trying to put trust

:00:32.:00:37.

into the BBC and you are paying him �450,000? In terms of just coming

:00:37.:00:40.

into the job, I have to work on into the job, I have to work on

:00:40.:00:42.

what I can control. We talk to the BBC Creative

:00:42.:00:45.

Director, Alan Yentob. Is the Chancellor planning a new

:00:45.:00:50.

batch of cuts in the Autumn Statement? The markets might like

:00:50.:00:54.

it, but at ground level it is just not what they are crying out for.

:00:54.:00:57.

People are trying to get work, and you have to give them a bit more

:00:57.:01:02.

money, to at least let them live. Abu Qatada isn't getting sent to

:01:02.:01:07.

jail in Jordan, he's getting sent back to his home, right here.

:01:07.:01:10.

Britain's ten-year struggle to counter this militant Islamist, has

:01:10.:01:14.

suffered another setback, and it could still take years for the case

:01:14.:01:21.

to be closed. Seven barren island, two powerful

:01:21.:01:25.

nation, will old enemies really use military force to control this land.

:01:25.:01:29.

This crisis is clearly not over, in China and now in Japan as well,

:01:30.:01:34.

this crisis is bringing back to the surface old anomosities, and long

:01:34.:01:44.
:01:44.:01:49.

Good evening. The Culture Secretary has already hinted that the

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outgoing Director-General of the BBC, George Entwistle, could be

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striped of his payout. Maria Miller confirmed the National Audit Office

:01:57.:02:00.

could review the payment, and suggested that the former Director-

:02:00.:02:04.

General should consider whether it was appropriate to accept the money.

:02:04.:02:07.

This evening, the internal MacQuarrie report into the

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Newsnight broadcast, that wrongly accused a Tory politician of child

:02:11.:02:15.

abuse, confirmed that basic journalistic checks were not

:02:15.:02:18.

completed, and final checks were unclear, and disciplinary

:02:19.:02:23.

procedures have begun. Have today's appointments left anything more

:02:23.:02:28.

than a shadow struck teeure at the BBC, and will it be enough to re--

:02:28.:02:32.

structure at the BBC, will it be enough to restore trust.

:02:32.:02:39.

This is the day the BBC tried 0 get a grip, and recover from one of the

:02:39.:02:43.

worst crises in its his treatment The start of disciplinary

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proceedings, senior executives stepping asierbgsd and the process

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fundamental change to restore trust in the BBC and all its programme,

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especially Newsnight. It is the biggest crisis for the BBC. At the

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heart of the BBC's troubles is the report by this programme that

:03:03.:03:08.

accused an innocent man of being a paedophile. A full on-air

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retraction one week later, couldn't undo what has been called "awful

:03:13.:03:16.

shoddy journalism", George Entwistle resigned less than eight

:03:16.:03:22.

weeks into his job. The man who leads the BBC Trust, and who

:03:22.:03:26.

appointed him, called it one of the saddest nights of his life. This is

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not a clean break, today the Trust's decision to pay him a

:03:30.:03:34.

year's salary, �450,000, generated new criticism. Diverting attention

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from Lord Patten's commitment, yesterday, to fundamental change in

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BBC management. If you are saying, does the BBC

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need a thorough structural, radical overhaul, absolutely it does.

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morning, the new acting DG, Tim Davie, arrived for work, promising

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a brisk start with immediate changes. Just into the job I have

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got full grip of the situation by clarifying exactly who is in charge,

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which, by the way, was a key learning curve from the report. If

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the public have a BBC they can trust, I have to be very clear, as

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Director-General, on who is running the news operation, and ensuring

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that journalism we put out passes muster. The first decision I have

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made is takingsings and on that, and put a clear line of command --

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taking control of that and putting a clear line of command.

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Helen Boaden, Head of News, and her deputy, Stephen Mitchell, will be

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stepping aside from normal roles, until the Pollard Review report,

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they can then expect to return to their positions. Because Pollard is

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investigating their part, if any, in the first Newsnight crisis, that

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is the decision not to air a report exposing Jimmy Savile, boast of

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those executives had already stepped aside from some of their

:04:56.:05:00.

duties. That meant neither of them was in any way involved in the more

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recent decision to run Newsnight's report on the North Wales children

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home. Another consequence of that,

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according to new findings from an internal BBC investigation is this,

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there was ambiguity around who was taking the ultimate editorial

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responsibility for the Newsnight report. The result of all this,

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turmoil among BBC management. But it also means tonight there are

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many BBC leaders in temporary, acting jobs, so the BBC has an

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"acting" Director-General and Editor in Chief, below him an

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"acting" director of news, and her new "acting" deputy. All overseeing

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a new "acting" editor of Newsnight. It may be a clear chain of command,

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after weeks of confusion, but it is still a temporary fix. We have got

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ago theing heads in almost every major division, an acting head of

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vision, the person responsible for the TV channels acting, the person

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responsible for radio is acting, the person responsible for news is

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acting, and the DG himself is acting. When you are acting, it is

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much more difficult to take major decisions that are going to have

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long-term consequences. So, some stability, people need to know who

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they are going to be reporting in to, who their boss is. They need to

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have confidence that those bosses are capable of sorting problems

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like this out. Today in parliament, the anger was obvious. MPs queued

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up to complain about BBC failings and the pay-off for George

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Entwistle, when he resigned. circumstances of his departure make

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it hard to justify the level of severence money that has been

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agreed. Here, here. Here. Contractual arrangements are a

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matter for the BBC Trust, but the Trust also has clear

:06:48.:06:52.

responsibilities to ensure value for money for the license fee payer.

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The BBC Trust cannot justify a pay- off of double the amount laid down

:06:57.:07:01.

in his contract. Does she, therefore, take the same view that

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I do, that George Entwistle should reflect on this, and only take that

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to which he is entitled, under his contract.

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The recent catalogue of senior management failings, has given

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opponents to attack for what is the most part a great broadcasting

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institution. Lord Patten justifies his decision

:07:24.:07:34.
:07:34.:07:44.

to offer George Entwistle a year's Lord Patten makes clear the Trust

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needed quick agreement, and Mr Entwistle's co-operation with

:07:48.:07:58.
:07:58.:08:02.

What a difference three months makes. The BBC's coverage of the

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Olympics was widely applauded, as part of a national triumph.

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Contrast those memories with a collapse of public trust in the BBC

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after Savile. One recent poll suggests more people no longer

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trust the BBC than do trust it. Another poll will be conducted

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tomorrow, results expected by the end of the week.

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As soon as it starts to get back on its front foot again, and offering

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very good programmes, I think public trust will return. As long

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as it is transparent in what it does and how it sorts things out,

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that will help support trust as well. It is more difficult these

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days, the BBC has so much competition, not just from print

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and broadcaster, but from the Internet as well. Therefore, for

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many people in the audience, it doesn't have the central role that

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it had even 10-20 years ago. Rebuilding trust and that buy-in to

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what the BBC represents in Britain, gets more complicated and difficult,

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but I'm confident it can be done. Is the BBC on a path to recovery?

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Maybe. But there is still huge uncertainty. As some staff face

:09:09.:09:12.

disciplinary hearings, some sit on the sidelines, others fill their

:09:12.:09:16.

jobs in acting roles. And, the hunt for the next Director-General goes

:09:16.:09:23.

Alan Yentob, the BBC's Creative Director joins me now. Listening

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there to what James said, do you feel that the BBC is in a better

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place tonight than it was 24 hours ago? I don't think we can be

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complacent about any of the events of the last few weeks. This has

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been a tumultuous few weeks. I think the consequence of the

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turmoil and of the last of the earlier part of this was also led

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to, I think, these event on Newsnight in the last few weeks.

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The confusion, the chain of command, the fact that some people were

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acting, others were having to step back, because of the investigations.

:09:58.:10:07.

So I think we have gone through a very difficult time. I do believe I

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thought Tim Davie, the acting Director-General, made it clear

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today, that we need to correct those things and rebuild trust.

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Nobody is saying it is an easy task. I would say one thing about the

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issue of trust, the BBC has been in trouble before, we have lost trust

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with the audience, and we have had to rebuild it and work at it.

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talk about what has happened today, because we have seen a report out

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already this evening, highlighting the mass confusion of that chain of

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command, and now we have another chain of command, where as you

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heard, just about everyone in a senior position is acting? Up to a

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point, that's true. But I think the confusion we have had is not what

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we have now. What has gone on, because of these investigations, it

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has meant that certain people have stepped down. I want to make it

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clear. They have stepped aside, they could step back again at any

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point? Let's be clear Helen Boaden and Stephen Mitchell, the Head of

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News and deputy, have stepped aside in order that the Pollard report

:11:08.:11:11.

can happen. Because of the events of the last few weeks and the fact

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it was difficult to know who was in charge, I think that has led to the

:11:16.:11:19.

consequences on Newsnight. And mistakes have been made, which

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would not normally have been made. It is entirely unacceptable. So,

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now, the chain of command is much clearer, Tim has made that very

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evident. We now need to learn the lessons, and to try to move on.

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That is tough, but we can do it. But is there any chance that the

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organisation can, this terrible phrase "get a grip", when everyone

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is essentially in a temporary position, unable to make an actual

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change to their department and when we have people that are outside

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possibly stepping back in as well? I do it is possible. I think it is

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more than possible. The people in Vision have a very good team, the

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people in radio have a very good team. There has been a shift. It is

:12:01.:12:05.

a responsibility of the team to work together. Now, the team have

:12:05.:12:08.

learned some of the lessons of the last few weeks, they are working

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together. Tim is looking at that. The Trust will have to look forward

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to what the next appointment will be. I don't consider that the

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circumstances which we are in are unmanageable. However, I do want to

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say, that the mistakes that have been made are bad, and we need to

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learn lessons from that. What do we do, for example, about the poll

:12:31.:12:35.

that James Robins was talking about, that shows for the first time, more

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people don't trust the BBC than do. I'm looking at my security badge,

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which has "trust" at the top, "the foundation of the BBC, audiences

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are at the heart of everything we do". If we have eroded the first

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two, we are in trouble? Of course we are in trouble. Look, the

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Director-General of the BBC, after 54 days has resigned, honourably. I

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would like to know, in the context of the media, how many people in

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other companies, which I won't name, have stepped down, when they

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decided that was the right thing to do. So the BBC has understood the

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gravity of this, and as a consequence we need to move on and

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try to rebuild the place. Can I say, we have had problems like this

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before, and we have had to rebuild that trust, that is not an easy

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task, but it is possible, and we intend to do it. When you talk

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about rebuilding trust, we have been told that investigations have

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been halted, for the time being, that's a weird state to be in, and

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clearly it feels very uncomfortable, me asking you this, from the

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position of a Newsnight presenter, but where does this leave

:13:44.:13:48.

investigative journalism on a programme like Newsnight? The thing

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is this, that investigative journalism is not the only thing

:13:51.:13:56.

that Newsnight does. Newsnight has done some very good investigative

:13:56.:13:58.

journalism. I think the first thing that has to happen is the team have

:13:59.:14:02.

to understand what went wrong, from now on wards, if they have got a

:14:02.:14:07.

show that they want to do or a story they have to tell, they have

:14:07.:14:09.

to ask themselves twice if that is right. They have to ensure they

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know who they are reporting to. It is perfectly obvious. What went

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wrong in the last, on that programme about abuse in the care

:14:17.:14:23.

home, was unacceptable. I think Newsnight, it is so unlike what

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this programme has done in the past. It is different from the last event.

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The next Director-General, whoever that is, will find themselves

:14:34.:14:39.

renegotiating the Charter, this is where, I guess, the existential

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question about whether the BBC still deserves that �145.50 from

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everyone in the country? Let me say this, we have to prove we deserve

:14:48.:14:52.

it. We have to rebuild that trust, the new Charter isn't yet there, we

:14:52.:14:56.

are not yet negotiating it. I would also like to point out, as you just

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said yourself, a few month ago, we had the Olympics, it was

:15:00.:15:04.

spectacularly well done. We have had the Shakespeare season, we have

:15:04.:15:08.

had investigative programme, not least Panorama investigating the

:15:08.:15:12.

same story that Newsnight didn't investigate. We have held ourselves

:15:12.:15:19.

to account in a way that other organisations don't. George had to

:15:19.:15:23.

go on with John Humphrys, just like any CEO would, and had to face him.

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And I think that in the end we have to trust that if the BBC makes the

:15:27.:15:31.

mistake, it will address that mistake. Was it a mistake for

:15:31.:15:33.

George Entwistle to leave with double what he was entitled to?

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me just say, these were circumstances in which he behaved

:15:38.:15:41.

extremely well, he had only been two months in the job, he had given

:15:41.:15:44.

up another safe job. The decision there was taken with some thought,

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I know, by the chairman of the BBC and the Trust, it wasn't a decision

:15:49.:15:52.

I was involved in, but I know he and his colleagues feel they did

:15:52.:15:55.

the right thing. We have seen parliament involved now, do you

:15:55.:15:59.

think, is your gut instinct telling you he will give that money back

:15:59.:16:04.

and he should? That is for George and the Trust to decide. However, I

:16:04.:16:08.

do understand in the environment we are in, that it is tough for people

:16:08.:16:12.

to see that. However, he took a very difficult decision. I don't

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know quite what the contractual arrangements are, I think the

:16:15.:16:18.

chairman has made clear that the alternative would have been, would

:16:18.:16:22.

be more brutal and he would have had to pay him more money. I don't

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want to really go there, because that's not, I don't know the

:16:25.:16:30.

details. Briefly, do you think that the BBC will look, sound very

:16:30.:16:35.

different in six months time. don't think going forwards means

:16:35.:16:40.

forgetting where we have been. This is, this period that we have been

:16:40.:16:43.

through has been a terrible period. If we learn the lesson, as we have

:16:43.:16:48.

in the past from things, I admit this is worse than many. I think we

:16:48.:16:52.

will be back on the road to recovery. There are a lot of people

:16:52.:16:55.

in this organisation who have to band together and make that happen.

:16:55.:16:58.

It is not about just saying it will just happen, it won't just happen,

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we have to make it happen. That, by the way, is nothing to do with

:17:02.:17:05.

structures, it has to do with people and their conviction. It has

:17:05.:17:08.

to do with their ability to speak to each other, and understand what

:17:09.:17:13.

the issues are, and where they are going. And that's a journey that we

:17:13.:17:16.

are all going to have to make together.

:17:16.:17:18.

Thank you very much, thanks for coming in.

:17:18.:17:22.

Could we be in for another �48 billion worth of spending cuts,

:17:22.:17:25.

when the Chancellor announces his Autumn Statement next month. The

:17:25.:17:29.

sums are the work of the Social Market Foundation and think-tank

:17:29.:17:32.

that thinks his deficit reduction plans are in double. A lack of

:17:32.:17:35.

growth and I here costs of borrowing, has created something of

:17:35.:17:39.

a black hole in the finances, they believe could translate into bigger,

:17:39.:17:46.

bolder and cuts in every department that isn't ring-fenced.

:17:46.:17:50.

The macro economy looks very macro indeed from all the way up here.

:17:50.:17:54.

But hurtle down, as we hurdle towards the Government's next grand

:17:54.:17:57.

economic pronouncement in a few weeks time, and reality Hoves into

:17:58.:18:06.

view. From a million anonymous streets,

:18:06.:18:09.

to London one street where the reality is played out at length. On

:18:09.:18:14.

the oneen end the very wealthy, the other end -- on one end the very

:18:14.:18:17.

wealthy and the other not very wealthy.

:18:17.:18:21.

Wages have been flatlining and the Government is trying to address the

:18:21.:18:25.

balance? I can see that, sometimes they need to look at where they are

:18:25.:18:30.

addressing the balance. What would you say? The other ideas in the mix

:18:30.:18:33.

is the rich would shoulder a bit more of the burden? That does

:18:33.:18:36.

spring to mind. The Conservatives are certainly preparing for a bang.

:18:36.:18:40.

We revealed some time ago on Newsnight that they planned to

:18:40.:18:43.

freeze working-age benefits, which would loosely affect some people

:18:43.:18:47.

living on this side of the street. But the Lib Dems believe, up the

:18:47.:18:51.

street, at the Abbey Road end, it is the other lot who should

:18:51.:18:55.

shoulder the burden. But why is the Government even on the hunt for

:18:56.:18:59.

more savings? In 2010, on takes office, the Chancellor set out two

:19:00.:19:06.

fiscal targets, one of them, the more forgotten one, was that by

:19:06.:19:09.

2015/16 fiscaly, debt as a proportion of GDP would be falling.

:19:09.:19:13.

Today a new report has come out suggesting that there is an even

:19:13.:19:18.

larger black hole than we realised. It is possibly as much as �48

:19:18.:19:23.

billion. Just how did the black hole get quite that black.

:19:23.:19:26.

The Royal Society of Arts and the Social Market Foundation study

:19:26.:19:30.

shows that �11 billion is due largely to a predicted rise in

:19:30.:19:33.

social security spending. That is because things like the number of

:19:33.:19:37.

pensioners, or an increase in rent costs, affecting housing benefit,

:19:37.:19:41.

are outside the Government's control. We know that already.

:19:41.:19:46.

A further �15 billion of spending cuts were included in the 2011 out

:19:46.:19:50.

dumb statement, because the economy had per-- Autumn Statement because

:19:50.:19:55.

the economy had performed more poor lie. The �22 billion hole

:19:55.:20:00.

identified today is partly because of borrow, and the UK economy is

:20:00.:20:03.

performing nearer its potential. Good news, except it leaves the

:20:03.:20:07.

Chancellor with a larger long-term structural deficit to plug.

:20:07.:20:12.

This Government is essentially run by a quad, four people, Nick Clegg,

:20:12.:20:21.

David Cameron, George Osborne and Danny Alexander. When Iain Duncan

:20:21.:20:24.

Smith goes to them and tells them what cuts to expect in the social

:20:24.:20:27.

welfare, we know the Conservative side of the Government believes

:20:27.:20:31.

they have to find if cuts to other departments are to remain the same

:20:31.:20:35.

level as they are now. We didn't know that in coming weeks in the

:20:35.:20:38.

Autumn Statement that set down what Conservative sources are saying to

:20:38.:20:44.

me, is a downpayment towards that �10 billion. In short, in the next

:20:45.:20:48.

few weeks we will find out what more cuts will come in and how soon.

:20:48.:20:55.

Take the benefits cut, �26 -- benefits cap �26,000, that is one

:20:55.:21:01.

of the most popular policies so far. My constituents say �26,000, that

:21:01.:21:07.

is a lot of money, we could reopen the debt cap and look more further

:21:07.:21:11.

being realistic at �20,000. It is not just welfare payments to the

:21:11.:21:16.

less well off we need to look at. We need to look at issues around

:21:16.:21:21.

the Winter Fuel Payment. I have heard examples that it is used to

:21:21.:21:24.

heat people's swimming pools. That is not there for that.

:21:24.:21:28.

I hear the Chancellor is threatening if he doesn't get his

:21:28.:21:30.

welfare cuts he will cut departments elsewhere, before the

:21:31.:21:35.

next election. It is probably bluff, but I understand Iain Duncan Smith,

:21:35.:21:40.

the Welfare Secretary, will meet Lib Dem leader, Nick Clegg, to

:21:40.:21:45.

discuss these possible cut. The Conservatives think popular support

:21:45.:21:50.

for welfare cuts could force a Liberal Democrat change of heart.

:21:50.:21:54.

The Liberal Democrats think they are cannier than that. What do they

:21:54.:21:58.

really want? Council tax is something that should be looked at.

:21:58.:22:01.

We have a situation at the moment where you have hugely expensive

:22:01.:22:04.

properties in the same banding as what people would regard as fairly

:22:04.:22:07.

modest family homes. So I think there is an opportunity to look at

:22:07.:22:11.

that as well as an opportunity to look at how we can achieve that in

:22:11.:22:15.

different situation. Elsewhere, in the negotiations, there is a desire

:22:15.:22:20.

that some of any savings made will go into something else all together.

:22:20.:22:24.

Newsnight can reveal that the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, is

:22:24.:22:29.

pushing for the reallocation of over �1 billion to his department

:22:29.:22:33.

in the Autumn Statement. My sources also suggest, that with the

:22:33.:22:36.

Chancellor he's pushing at an open- door. They want more money on

:22:36.:22:40.

science, they want more money on Aerospace, the sweet spot for those

:22:40.:22:44.

across Government, they want to reallocate funds from they believe

:22:44.:22:48.

to be unproductive areas of spending, like benefits, towards

:22:48.:22:52.

productive areas. The trouble is, even if they g can get agreement,

:22:52.:22:56.

for many, it won't go far enough the short-term we would be much

:22:56.:22:59.

better off if we were borrowing more and spending more,

:22:59.:23:03.

particularly on infrastructure and investment. We can borrow for

:23:03.:23:05.

essentially nothing, interest rates are at historically low level, the

:23:06.:23:08.

Government could afford to borrow and spend more, good for the

:23:08.:23:12.

economy in the short-term. Over the medium-to-long-term, the Government

:23:12.:23:18.

is right, we need to balance the book. There is a medium to long-

:23:18.:23:23.

term question of how do we get borrowing at levels we are happy

:23:23.:23:26.

with. They are aiming to balance wealth and welfare, can they get

:23:26.:23:29.

the mix right for the wealth of the nation.

:23:29.:23:33.

Joining me in the studio, Margot James, the Conservative MP for

:23:33.:23:37.

Stourbridge, and the former Treasury spokesman, Lib Dem peer,

:23:37.:23:42.

Lord Oakshott, welcome you both. Do you accept that the Government

:23:43.:23:46.

will have to find more spending cuts, or more taxes to raise?

:23:46.:23:50.

think the important thing is that we have reduced the deficit now by

:23:50.:23:54.

25%, and the economy is starting to grow again. So I think we have got

:23:54.:23:58.

the fundamentals right. That wasn't the question I asked, do you accept

:23:58.:24:02.

there will be more spending cuts? You are referring to the rorl that

:24:02.:24:06.

Allegra Stratton has just reported on. -- report that Allegra Stratton

:24:06.:24:10.

has just reported on. Chalt has already said the time which --

:24:10.:24:13.

Chancellor has already said the time we will address the deficit is

:24:13.:24:17.

longer than originally planned. Yes, I think there may well have to be

:24:17.:24:22.

further cuts in spending. Where would you want those to be? I think

:24:23.:24:27.

one of the areas under consideration may well be the rise

:24:27.:24:32.

in people's benefits. This year there was a very generous rise in

:24:32.:24:36.

benefits by over 5%. Many of us felt with inflation down to just

:24:37.:24:41.

over 2% that was perhaps too high, and I can see, you know, a freeze

:24:41.:24:45.

on benefit increase. That is pure speculation at this stage. Would

:24:45.:24:49.

you buy that? Would you first acknowledge that we will see these

:24:49.:24:54.

spending cuts? No. Go on? Simple answer. The last thing we need, we

:24:54.:24:58.

don't know whether the economy is growing, it has one good zig after

:24:58.:25:01.

three bad zags. The Governor of the Bank of England says it is

:25:01.:25:07.

basically flat. The last thing we need is get stuck on a down

:25:07.:25:10.

escalator, and no growth, and slower growth. That is economic

:25:10.:25:13.

disSASer t we are not going along with it, they are not my words,

:25:13.:25:16.

they are Vince Cable in the party conference speech. It is

:25:16.:25:19.

economically mad to have further cuts now when the economy is flat

:25:19.:25:23.

on the floor. We need to stimulate it, getting the banks lending and

:25:24.:25:29.

builders building. This suggests you, Vince Cable, do not accept

:25:29.:25:32.

that Osborne's fiscal golden rules that debt should be falling by the

:25:33.:25:36.

end of this parliament is immutable? That is different. The

:25:36.:25:40.

debt is the balance sheet, the deficit is what we are worrying

:25:40.:25:44.

about immediately now. Frankly, we are not. That is a golden rule

:25:44.:25:47.

isn't it? We are not going to get there. If the economy doesn't grow,

:25:47.:25:50.

and there is no growth. It depends whichever country we are in, the

:25:50.:25:54.

IMF, everyone seeing that, we had to take urgent action to get on top

:25:55.:26:01.

of the deficit to start W frankly, now, the policy is not work --

:26:01.:26:07.

start with. Frankly now the policy is not working. I disagree that the

:26:07.:26:11.

policy is not working. A million new private sector jobs have been

:26:11.:26:14.

created in the last two years. There is no growth, there was a

:26:14.:26:22.

tiny. There is not much growth in Stourbridge, but maybe London.

:26:22.:26:29.

have growth in Stourbridge, every visit I -- to business I go to they

:26:29.:26:34.

are having growth. Construction? With the one exception of

:26:34.:26:40.

construction? That is getting the economy in depression on its own.

:26:40.:26:45.

Let's talk about some of the issues, looking forward to the Autumn

:26:45.:26:50.

Statement are you happy to see a relook at council tax bands? I hope

:26:50.:26:53.

very much, I moved the amendment in our conference that we should go

:26:53.:26:57.

for the mansion tax. He has ruled that out? If you look at the

:26:57.:26:59.

financial tax today, leading Conservatives are saying we need

:26:59.:27:03.

much more fairness on. That we need to move the balancing of taxation

:27:03.:27:08.

from income to wealth. And how can it be right that on a �200 million

:27:08.:27:12.

in London you pay the same property tax as you do on a modest semi-.

:27:12.:27:17.

That can't be fair. Is the mansion tax back on the table now? I hope

:27:17.:27:21.

not, tax should be fair and affordable. I think this Government

:27:21.:27:25.

has put in place some measures to tax the wealthier far more than

:27:25.:27:34.

they were under the last Government. The increase in stamp duty and the

:27:34.:27:39.

freeze on allowances against tax avoidance. That doesn't catch the

:27:39.:27:42.

non-Dom, they hide their houses behind a brass plate. The rich

:27:42.:27:45.

people in central London, stamp duty doesn't catch them, the

:27:45.:27:49.

mansion tax is the only tax they can't dodge. If it turned into a

:27:50.:27:54.

council tax band enlargement, or rise, it is an ugly phrase, would

:27:54.:27:58.

that satisfy the Liberal Democrats? We don't expect to get exactly our

:27:58.:28:02.

specific policy S if we were going to get something, whereby the

:28:02.:28:07.

people in the �5 million, �10 million, and �20 million. In most

:28:07.:28:10.

constituencies there aren't any of those. If they are paying their

:28:10.:28:13.

fair share, I would be surprised if Margot James didn't support t

:28:13.:28:18.

Conservative voters support it, overwhelmingly, why don't you?

:28:18.:28:22.

don't think a tax on homes people have worked hard to pay for is

:28:22.:28:28.

necessary at this stage. I don't think a simple council tax

:28:28.:28:32.

reevaluation will trap non-Doms in �200 million homes, that wouldn't

:28:32.:28:36.

work at all, that was the example you gave. What we are trying to do

:28:36.:28:46.
:28:46.:28:57.

is not increase the tax burden that people are suffering at the moment.

:28:57.:29:00.

Eight million are out of tax at the moment already. Come back nearer

:29:00.:29:05.

the time and discuss it then. What were the sanctions be if we just

:29:05.:29:09.

put Abu Qatada on a plane and sent him home to Jordan. The question

:29:09.:29:12.

was asked of the Home Secretary in the Commons, after the terror

:29:12.:29:15.

suspect won his latest battle against deportation. Tomorrow

:29:15.:29:18.

morning Abu Qatada will still be under 16-hour curfew, but

:29:18.:29:21.

technically, he will be free to stay in this country. The Home

:29:21.:29:26.

Secretary, as she has pretty much admitted, powerless to do anything

:29:26.:29:30.

concrete without breaking the law. Given all parties and the country

:29:30.:29:34.

seem united and impotent in seeing the suspect to go. Is it time to

:29:34.:29:38.

put the law on to one side. How did this happen? It was a

:29:38.:29:42.

decision by a British court, a special immigration appeals court,

:29:42.:29:46.

three judge. Essentially, on the question of would he get a grossly

:29:46.:29:51.

unfair trial if send sent back to Jordan. This goes to article -- if

:29:51.:29:54.

he got sent back to Jordan. This goes to article six of the

:29:54.:29:59.

Convention on Human rights. The Government thought he they had done

:29:59.:30:03.

enough to convince that he would get a fair trial. That is what the

:30:03.:30:07.

Home Secretary said, she felt she had convinced them of, large low,

:30:07.:30:12.

when she was speaking in the Commons. The court said that the

:30:12.:30:15.

Jordanian judiciary, like their executive counterparts, are

:30:15.:30:18.

determined to ensure that the appellant will receive and be seen

:30:18.:30:28.
:30:28.:30:28.

to receive a fair retrial. SIAC also said, if the only question we

:30:28.:30:33.

had to answer was whether or not the appellant would be subject to

:30:33.:30:39.

an unfair trial in Jordan, our unquestioning answer would be he

:30:39.:30:43.

would not. Then to the but. Two expert witnesses talking about the

:30:43.:30:46.

Jordanian system of justice, would he get justice, one for the

:30:46.:30:49.

Government, one for Abu Qatada's side of the argument. The court

:30:49.:30:54.

tended towards Abu Qatada's person. His expert witness who essentially

:30:54.:30:58.

argued that information from torture might still, despite the

:30:58.:31:02.

guarantees, be introduced into the trial, and he might still be

:31:02.:31:12.

subject to some abitary form of detention. We are 11 years on, this

:31:12.:31:15.

is bit embarrassing for the Government? They had gone to all

:31:15.:31:18.

the trouble to negotiate safe agreements with the Jordanians and

:31:18.:31:21.

changed their constitution last year in an attempt to ease

:31:21.:31:24.

situations like this one, the Jordanian Justice Minister, tonight,

:31:24.:31:29.

speaking of his disappointment with the British court's decision. It is

:31:29.:31:31.

politically embarrassing, the European Court, it is not part of

:31:31.:31:35.

the EU, but it is a European institution. And the European

:31:35.:31:37.

Convention on Human Rights is very much resented by many backbenchers

:31:37.:31:42.

in the Tory Party, making it a very politically difficult issue for the

:31:42.:31:48.

Home Secretary. From here, the lawyers are happy, presumably?

:31:48.:31:51.

continues as a Dickensian saga, it would seem. The Government

:31:51.:31:54.

immediately said it would appeal the decision to the Appeal Court in

:31:54.:31:58.

the UK. If the issue is still deadlocked, it could go to the

:31:59.:32:01.

Supreme Court. That could easily take a year. The thing could then

:32:01.:32:06.

go beyond that, as we discovered today, talking to a leading human

:32:06.:32:10.

rights QC. I think we have another year's worth of UK let gaigs at

:32:10.:32:15.

least. If Abu Qatada is the -- litigation at Lee. If Abu Qatada is

:32:16.:32:20.

the loser at the domestic phase, he can go back to the European Court

:32:20.:32:23.

and say the English courts have misunderstood the evidence, and the

:32:23.:32:29.

European Court will look at it in 2015, or whatever it is, there is a

:32:29.:32:33.

possibility we are in for several years more of litigation.

:32:33.:32:40.

Several years more of litigation, Shami Chakrabarti and Peter Bone

:32:40.:32:44.

join me now. You up for seven more years of this? That is unacceptable.

:32:44.:32:49.

He should be on the plane tonight, going home, we will worry about the

:32:49.:32:52.

consequences afterwards. I'm absolutely sure that 95% of British

:32:52.:32:56.

people would support that. Most people in this country would

:32:56.:32:59.

probably agree with that? Qatada has followed me around for

:32:59.:33:03.

longer than he has followed Mr Bone's around, possibly even you.

:33:03.:33:09.

But here is the thing, you don't get to pick and choose which courts

:33:09.:33:13.

you obey. Whether you are a kid. You do, actually. This was a

:33:13.:33:17.

domestic court? This is a British court. You are a kid on a council

:33:17.:33:20.

estate, and you are told the magistrate tell you, this is your

:33:20.:33:23.

ASBO, and it is unfair, and you don't like it, and you desagree

:33:23.:33:26.

with it, and you are the Government, the Prime Minister, the Home

:33:26.:33:29.

Secretary, and you disagree with the court, you don't get to pick

:33:29.:33:34.

and choose, that is the rule of law. We tell people, you don't riot, you

:33:34.:33:37.

don't disobey the law or the courts, you tell people that, if you are

:33:37.:33:42.

the Government you have to lead by example. You are a legislator, what

:33:42.:33:46.

message does that send out? That is wrong, the Supreme Court of this

:33:46.:33:49.

country has said Abu Qatada can be deported, that should have been

:33:49.:33:52.

good enough for. It is the fact that the European Court has

:33:52.:33:57.

interfered. That is where you do come and pick and choose. Say our

:33:57.:33:59.

Supreme Court should be the ultimate judge, not this fancy

:33:59.:34:03.

court in Europe. That's the difference. It is legal, completely

:34:03.:34:07.

legal to send him home. Today's judgment is not from a fancy court

:34:07.:34:12.

in Europe. What about Italy, Italy deported a man to Tunisia, it has

:34:12.:34:18.

been fined �12,000, we don't call Italy a lawless country? Listen, it

:34:18.:34:22.

is not about Italy or Russia or Jordan. There are all sort of

:34:22.:34:25.

countries that have all sorts of different standards about human

:34:25.:34:31.

rights, and about the law. Today a British court set up by a British

:34:31.:34:35.

parliament, the Special Immigration Appeals Commission is a court, a

:34:35.:34:39.

special secret court, that the Government gets to put people

:34:39.:34:43.

secret intelligence to, and it said he can't be deported. I don't know

:34:43.:34:48.

that's what it decided, does the Prime Minister say, two fingers to

:34:48.:34:51.

you. Doucet follow the rule of law? Our Supreme Court said he could be

:34:51.:34:55.

deported. No it didn't. Yes it did. You are fundamentally wrong on that.

:34:55.:34:59.

What has happened is since then the European Court raised the bar. I

:34:59.:35:03.

did agree to the Home Secretary today, she laid this at the door of

:35:03.:35:06.

the European Court of human right. What we should be doing is

:35:06.:35:12.

accepting our law as the supreme law and ignore all the rest of it.

:35:12.:35:17.

She is not going to put him on a plane? She's entitled to appeal.

:35:17.:35:21.

Think she will, I think the British people will make her put him on the

:35:21.:35:24.

plane. It is absurd we have years and years of more legal argument.

:35:24.:35:27.

The Home Secretary and I do not agree about many things, she today

:35:27.:35:30.

said she will appeal. That is the decent, honourable thing to do.

:35:30.:35:34.

will go on for years, put him on the plane now, send him home, worry

:35:34.:35:39.

about it afterward. You think Theresa May will put him on the

:35:39.:35:43.

plane and worry about the consequences, that is what you thu

:35:43.:35:46.

she should do? I think she should, and she will be a national hero if

:35:46.:35:52.

she does it. She tell people who riot and she tells kids on council

:35:52.:35:59.

estates, stop it! Abu Qatada is he allowed to remain here

:35:59.:36:02.

indefinitely? To be honest she has picked this problem, she has

:36:02.:36:06.

inherited this problem, this has gone on for years, he should have

:36:06.:36:10.

been charged with offences years ago.

:36:10.:36:14.

Thank you very much. This is a row about eight uninhabited islands

:36:14.:36:18.

with a total area of sevenkms squared. It is not what they are

:36:18.:36:22.

but where they are, lodged in the China sea between Japan and China,

:36:22.:36:29.

two hours with a history of empty, and a resurgence, many would say,

:36:29.:36:33.

of nationalism. The Shins or Diaoyu islands matter because they are for

:36:33.:36:37.

rich fishing and may contain oi deposit. In the first of a series

:36:37.:36:43.

of films about the new China, eing from the 18th Congress being held

:36:43.:36:47.

in Beijing. We have been to the islands to assess rising tensions

:36:47.:36:55.

between China and Japan. Just after dawn we get our first

:36:55.:37:00.

view of the islands. A jagged huddle of rock, sticking

:37:00.:37:07.

up from the deep blue waters of the China Sea. It has taken ten hours

:37:07.:37:12.

sailing to get here from China's closest inhabited islands. As we

:37:13.:37:18.

approach the Japanese coastguard speeds alongside, making sure we

:37:19.:37:24.

don't get any closer. For decades these islands were long forgotten.

:37:24.:37:28.

The last settlers left during World War II.

:37:28.:37:35.

But now, a newly emboldened China has decided to assert its

:37:35.:37:40.

historical claim. As if on cue, the Chinese make their entrance. The

:37:40.:37:44.

skipper aboard our boat has just been told by the Japanese

:37:44.:37:46.

coastguard, which is coming alongside here, we have to move

:37:46.:37:50.

around to the north of the island, because they say there are Chinese

:37:50.:37:52.

ships off to the south here, they are worried they will come and

:37:52.:37:58.

board us. Things now start to get very busy.

:37:58.:38:03.

Four Chinese ships are clearly visible, well inside Japan's

:38:03.:38:08.

territorial water. Overhead a Japanese air force plane

:38:08.:38:14.

swoops low. But the Chinese ships steam on, undeterred. Until last

:38:14.:38:19.

month, it was inconceivable that Japan and China could come to blows

:38:19.:38:24.

over this uninhabited, remote group of islands. Look at the situation

:38:24.:38:28.

today, there are four Chinese coastguard cutters, and two

:38:28.:38:30.

Japanese coastguard cutters within my sight. There is a tense stand-

:38:30.:38:34.

off going on, the Japanese coastguard is very nervous about us

:38:34.:38:37.

being here, they are clearly worried this could turn into some

:38:37.:38:40.

sort of international incident. This crisis is clearly not over. In

:38:40.:38:45.

China, and now in Japan as well, this crisis is bringing back to the

:38:45.:38:52.

surface old anomosities, and long dormant nationalism.

:38:53.:38:58.

In September, the island dispute burst on to the streets of China's

:38:58.:39:02.

cities. Protests turned into riots against anything Japanese. Cars

:39:02.:39:07.

were smashed, Japanese-owned businesses burned. In Tokyo, the

:39:07.:39:11.

man who will probably be Japan's next Prime Minister, doesn't hide

:39:11.:39:21.

his anger when decribing to me what he thinks happened.

:39:21.:39:24.

TRANSLATION: The Chinese Government does not live up to international

:39:24.:39:29.

standards or rules, it deliberately allows attacks on Japanese

:39:29.:39:34.

companies, and organises boycotts of Japanese goods. We have not

:39:34.:39:42.

retaliated but we won't yield to the Chinese pressure.

:39:42.:39:47.

Since World War II, jat pan has been committed to a -- Japan has

:39:47.:39:51.

been committed to a pacifist constitution. But that is changing,

:39:51.:39:55.

these students belong to nationalist group called Students

:39:55.:40:00.

for the Future. They think it is time for Japan to rearm, and they

:40:00.:40:05.

point to China as the reason. Do you think Japanese people fear the

:40:05.:40:13.

rise of China? TRANSLATION: Because of what is happening with the

:40:13.:40:16.

island, people are starting to realise there is a problem with

:40:16.:40:23.

China, that it is a threat to us. On Sunday afternoon, in Tokyo's

:40:23.:40:28.

main shopping district, Students for the Future is out recruiting.

:40:28.:40:33.

Until recently, nationalism was a dirty word here, confined to a tiny

:40:33.:40:37.

minority of hard right extremists. But listen to what these kids have

:40:37.:40:41.

to say. TRANSLATION: If something happened

:40:41.:40:45.

with China, we need to be able to use our own military force to

:40:45.:40:50.

protect our islands. This young woman likens what is

:40:50.:40:56.

going on here to Britain's conflict in the Falklands.

:40:56.:41:00.

TRANSLATION: Japanese needs to see the islands like Margaret Thatcher

:41:00.:41:04.

did with the Falkland, Japanese need to have determination like she

:41:04.:41:13.

did to protect the Falklands. Would Japan really be prepared to

:41:13.:41:20.

go to war over a few rocks? These people would. These are hard right

:41:20.:41:25.

nationalists, who want to scrap Japan's pacifist constitution. This

:41:25.:41:29.

is their spiritual leader, Shantaro Ishihara, the controversial

:41:29.:41:35.

Governor of Tokyo. He sometimes is described as the

:41:35.:41:43.

Jeanne Marie Le Penn of Japan. This is the man who ignited the dispute

:41:43.:41:48.

with China when he tried to buy the islands. The Governor of Tokyo has

:41:48.:41:53.

set the cat amongst the pigeons, by stepping down as governor and

:41:53.:41:58.

starting a new party, to force Japan to get much tougher with

:41:58.:42:04.

China. How should Japan respond to China's actions? TRANSLATION:

:42:04.:42:11.

must be ready to draw its sword. Then he returns to make sure I have

:42:11.:42:18.

understood. Do you know the meaning of that

:42:18.:42:20.

(speaks Japanese) very important that.

:42:20.:42:26.

Anybody who thinks Japan doesn't have a sword, should look at this.

:42:26.:42:30.

Officially Japan doesn't have a Navy. In reality, it is one of the

:42:30.:42:37.

most modern and powerful in the world. It's open day on the

:42:37.:42:44.

flagship of Japan's "not" Navy. The Huger is a 19,000 tonne helicopter

:42:44.:42:48.

carrier. Hundreds of ordinary Japanese are claiming aboard,

:42:48.:42:53.

fascinated to see this sleek new ship.

:42:53.:42:57.

Officially this is called a helicopter destroyier, but as the

:42:57.:43:01.

saying goes, if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it

:43:01.:43:05.

probably is a duck. This is essentially a small aircraft

:43:05.:43:10.

carrier, the first to be built in Japan since the end of the Second

:43:10.:43:12.

World War, this is just the beginning. Two more of these ship,

:43:12.:43:16.

twice as big as this one, are currently under construction just

:43:16.:43:21.

down the coast here. The question is, why has Japan decided it needs

:43:21.:43:31.

to build aircraft carriers. Today it is getting more and more

:43:31.:43:38.

nervous. The Chinese, they are very, more active day by day, and then

:43:38.:43:44.

Japanese Government is not responding well enough yet.

:43:44.:43:48.

TRANSLATION: To see we have ships like this makes me feel more safe.

:43:49.:43:53.

If we didn't have the ships like this, our territory could easily be

:43:53.:43:58.

taken away from us. There is now an undeclared arms

:43:58.:44:08.
:44:08.:44:20.

race going on in East Asia, driven Japan's opposition leader believes

:44:20.:44:24.

China's military spending is being driven by clear territorial

:44:24.:44:31.

ambitions. In order to secure oil and gas reserve the Chinese is

:44:31.:44:36.

building up its Navy. Its military spending has increased by more than

:44:36.:44:40.

10% every year for 20 years. It is aggressively trying to take over

:44:40.:44:49.

the South China Sea, and now the east China sea. Including our

:44:49.:44:53.

Shenkaku islands. The Chinese are trying to draw them into the a game

:44:53.:44:56.

of chicken. Like any game of chicken. What is

:44:56.:45:01.

going on out here is very dangerous. Since we left the island, Chinese

:45:01.:45:07.

ships have been reported inside Japanese waters every single day.

:45:07.:45:12.

The Japanese Government is so far resisting the urge to act. But with

:45:12.:45:17.

a game of chicken, if both side refuse to back down, there is

:45:17.:45:22.

usually only one, possible outcome. We will be in China late this week,

:45:22.:45:28.

where Paul Mason has gone to cover the once-in-a-decade handover of

:45:28.:45:29.

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