27/11/2012 Newsnight

family from future problems. Much as they may want to protect them

from events, it may not be the decision in the event -- in the end.

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, should our top universities be

forced to take more students from poor backgrounds? And should they

be fined if they don't? St Andrews says it's trying but

it's not prepared to lower its standards. Does the university have

a point? Good evening. This looks like a

classic conflict of right against right. The Scottish Government

wants more students from poor backgrounds to go to university.

The universities go along to an extent, but insist they can't lower

their standards and are suspicious of any suggestion of quotas. Today

St Andrews became the latest to try to square the circle. But will it

work? Here's Seonag Mackinnon. It is sometimes referred to as

Scotland's Oxford, and with the future king and queen among its

graduates, little wonder. But even that Prince William has shown his

commitment to recruiting more youngsters from poorer backgrounds.

The appeal we are launching today aims to raise �100 million to

invest in people and ideas. Insuring that the brightest

students, that is you and me of course, come to St Andrews

regardless of background and circumstances.

Ba Miller and Christopher, who come from state schools in Fife, save

the reputation is overstated and should not put applicants offer.

When I first came, it was strange hearing all the accents. My room-

mate was from Chicago, and when we first met each other I was so

excited about seeing an American and he was so excited about seeing

a Scotsman, but we were not too intimidated by each other's accents.

St Andrews is very international, and that is one of the things I

like about being here. It is a bit intimidating if you come from

somewhere local, but it is one of the best parts of being at the

University. By last year's St Andrews only

admitted 14 from Scotland's most disadvantaged homes. Today the

university says it hopes to increase that to 20, set aside an

extra �400,000 for bursaries. Student leaders are underwhelmed.

By would expect a few -- a bit more ambition. It seems they are coming

up with excuses about what they can't do rather than saying what

they can do. We have seen good evidence from elsewhere but you can

look at offering slightly different rates depending on the type of

school you have been at. But the university says it makes an

offer to the majority of those who apply from poorer homes, and it

says that Vestey on campus cannot just be the responsibility of

university leaders. -- diversity. It is about the wider cultural of

attainment in Scotland. It is wrong to say it is just the point of

leaving secondary school and entering university. Is it down to

the schools that not enough students have the ambition? I think

it is everything, and the universities can do more to create

aspiration, but we also have to have engagement from everywhere

else in society in relation to the wider societal effort.

Sir is Scotland failing its poorest students? In 2011 across Scotland,

2.5% of them got at least three A grades in their hires. In East

Renfrewshire it was 5.6%. Edinburgh, just 1.4%.

They there are about 220 people from those backgrounds who have the

basic qualifications to come here, and that would be three a pass

higher exams. If we can take 20 from that 220, that is 10%. We did

not represent 10% of Scotland's capacity in Scotland's education.

St Andrew's say they do not want to admit...

The Scottish Government says it understands the dilemma and

commence steps forward, but warns universities it may apply more

pressure. Be it is a modest step forward, but it is a step forward

and I think sick and resistor be commended for recognising the need

to be admit students from elsewhere. I want to see progress on this -

every one of Scotland wants to see progress and progress is welcomed.

They are on Lake -- also right to argue they are not the only players.

There are ways to get children from poorer backgrounds into further and

higher education. Everyone agrees to few from modest

homes win places on campuses, but the big question is billed the

threat from -- of a cut from public funding UCCA any time soon, or

achieve a breakthrough? I'm joined now from Dundee by St

Andrews University's vice-principal responsible for admissions, Stephen

Magee. Here in Glasgow is Gerry Lyons, head teacher of St Andrews

secondary school in Carntyne, who's speaking on behalf of the School

Leaders Scotland organisation. And in Edinburgh Dr Cristina Ianelli,

an educational sociologist specialising in social mobility.

21st of all explain, this document that you should today with these

commitments on it - what is the status of that, is that an

agreement you have made with the Scottish Government? Partly. Many

of these things which are in the statement, for example the increase

in bursaries, up or articulation of routes with further education

colleges, we are doing already. understand that, but there had been

some suggestions that the Scottish Government might find it

universities, but it was not happy we were doing enough to increase

intake from poorer backgrounds? the moment we are in the process of

negotiating outcome agreements, which is what the Cabinet Secretary

referred to. These have not been finalised now -- yet. So it would

in theory be possible for the Scottish funding council to come

back and say, that is not good enough? Bay would ask us by our

ambition is at that scale, and we have tried to explain to date why

we want to put in as much effort as we can't, but we are committed to

this absolutely. We have to get across the scale of the problem,

and a great deal of effort is going to have to go in to accept Bevis

more changes. This is you're opening bid, from what you are

saying? No, there was an outcome agreement last year, but this was a

prototype. This is part of the ongoing process of discussing a

widely just how complex this problem is, and showing each

institution's commitment to solving it. But the point is you have to

come to an agreement, you have not done it yet, and this is your

attempt to say, is that good enough? This is part of it, there

is more to it. Presumably, is there are thinning it in the university

but you are being asked to do two things but or contradictory? You

are in a situation where in England they now have tuition fees, so you

are under great pressure to keep standards up, particularly in

research, but on the other hand you have to take people from poorer

backgrounds? That is correct, there is the possibility of a

contradiction, but I think we can do both those things. But all of

this institution within which I work is committed to excellence in

teaching research, but also being accessible. If we want to be

accessible, and we want to allow young Scots to rub shoulders with

very bright people from the rest of the world. A commitment on you're

part to take six more students from poorer backgrounds is hardly

staggering. There are the best part of 30,000 places available in

Scottish Higher Education four degrees each year, in St Andrews

about 500. If we increase the number to 20, that 20 represents

quite a big number out of the hall capacity. I want to bring the other

people in, but a lot of people will understand your predicament as a

university, and many of your Ordnance may have merit. The

problem of this idea of we will do our bit, but it is a broader

societal problem, is that everybody says it is a broad problem to do

with society and Ben Franklin nothing happens. Up by am hoping

something does happen. To the evidence in the coming years will

show we are actually doing quite a lot. Dr Cristina Ianelli, do

sympathise with their predicament? I do, because I think it is a

complex phenomenon. So-so inequalities are starting from when

people on board. There is no doubt that people who experience live

conditions which or very disadvantaged, they bring these

disadvantages onwards in their life, and in the school and in the labour

market. There is no doubt that this is not just education, the problem

is more a societal problem, and in that -- inequalities which exist in

our society. But they have an obligation to counteract this

imbalance. Gerry Lyons, do you think the University of ordering

enough? Imagine it if you scroll, we were trying to get eight more

students to get better grades? Fundamentally it is about the

intake. I think you have to engage with the problem of and parts of

the problem you can impact on, and certainly in schools that is what

we try to do. There are a range of things we can do to counteract

disadvantage and give young people opportunities that perhaps might be

deprived -- might deprive them if it were not for the quality of the

work the schools do. A if you look at the statistics for Scotland in

general, there does not seem to be any evidence that that is happening.

By would dispute that. In the two schools are served in Glasgow, we

increased the number of people going on to universities by 11% in

one and 6% in the other in the last How many more students do you have

going to university? We now have 25% of school levers going on the

university. My school was 1640 young people. Of those 1640, how

many last year got what Stephen Magee would want, and correct me if

I am wrong, I think is three As and a B. Three As and a B. Could cha be

one sitting? They can come back in the sixth year. In the main one

sitting is to be preferred. many of your students... In one

sitting you would talk about 6% of that year group. That is the fourth

year, year group. You are talking about 25 young people. Right. In

fact you think you would have 25 young people coming out of your

school, one school, that could go to Stephen Magee's university.

Absolutely. Do they want do that? Interestingly, know they no they

don't. That is one of the issues that Steven has to address, of the

220 young people from deprived areas who got the necessary

qualification to go to St Andrews only 55 applied to go there. 34 of

them were offered placed and only 14 took them. There is an issue for

St Andrews which I am sure Steven is happy to engage with, which is

about how do you make St Andrews more of a viable option for young

people from deprived backgrounds, and challenge that perception,

which is that is for another group of people in our society and not

for us.. If I can come in, I think that is absolutely right. I would

dearly love to be able to persuade my fellow Glaswegians is a good

option. Why do you think will have a problem? It is a very ugly phrase

but we are least local credit union versety in Scotland. Possibly the

least lobg in the UK. 95% of our students don't come from this area.

They have to commute, they have to live here. Typically we are

attracting good student from a variety of schools rather than a

large number from a small variety as you might find in Glasgow. In

the case of Gerry's school... wouldn't find that in Edinburgh?

is a large urban population, it is not the same at all. In the case of

Gerry's school. We had six application in the last were to

three years and two entrants which I think is about pretty good

average, given the numbers we are talking about. We can do more.

you think there is a problem as it were on the other side, t it is not

that universities need to do more to attract people from poorer

background, but there is a barrier to people perceiving. Even if they

do have the academic results, they perceive they don't want to go?

agree. When I speak with a widening access with from the University of

Edinburgh. They complain they don't have enough applicants with lower

social background, so there is a perception among students from less

advantaged background they can't fit in in those university, in that

sense we can do much more, and the university can do nor show it is

not an elitist university. It is an elitist credit union versety

because it produces high quality research. This is the kind of

things which should attract everybody, all the student

population, not just the most advantaged students. What do you

student, the ones who get the pass, what do they say to you about why

they don't want to go places like St Andrews? They very much focus on,

I think, the local university, a lot of them apply to Glasgow,

Strathclyde, Glasgow Caledonian and their focus is very much there.

Interestingly because those universities engage directly with

us. Our young people have link programmes with those university,

they spend time in them, they are mentored by students from those

universities, there is a widening access programme there. Stephen

right, we have sent students to St Andrews but in my time I have never

engaged from anyone from St Andrews although I would be delight dod so.

I think that is an invitation. would delighted to take it up. I

will write to Gerry in the morning. That is excellent. There is a high

Newsnight Scotland commissioning fee! Of course! We can discuss

that! We write to every high school in Scotland. Let us they have 350.

We visit 100 every year. If you consider the number of students

that enter St Andrews in a given year from Scotland, about 500. We

are probably getting on average one or two kids, not from every school

every year, but pretty much you know, good standard of, at that

level. Right. OK. I think all of you agree, that there is a problem

here. And it is a fairly wide based problem. But the danger is, as we

talked about earlier, if we keep saying it is very broad based,

nothing gets down. I am curious, Dr Cristina Ianelli, if there were two

or three things we could do to address this problem of

underachievement, if you like, what would they be? Well, Well, some

international research has shown that the best way actually to

improve the educational attainment of people from lower social

backgrounds is really rising standards, not damping down the

standards. We wouldn't do any favour to them, or to our education

system. So you would agree with Stephen Magee, under no

circumstances should St Andrews for example, there shouldn't be a quota

system, they shouldn't be taking students of lesser academic

qualification just because they are from poor backgrounds? Well it's a

difficult issue, I think not always educational attainment is showing

the real potential of people. If you are born in a lower social

background with less resources in a school which is disadvantaged, you

have not had the same possibility to achieve highly as people from

other area, so in some ways I am not saying that they have to reduce

the standards, I am saying maybe they should consider clearly this

other circumstances, if, you know, they can achieve, they can accept

to students who have less than three As but have some other ways

of measures the potential, the ability of the students, I would

endorse that, because I still think again, that students not all

students have the same possibility to achieve those high standards.

alternative to this. What would you, Gerry, what would you suggest?

couple of practical suggestion, one is we consider a more sophisticated

approach to what other university - - what are the university admission

criteria. There is research going into contextualised application and

looking at the circumstances of a young person round gaveing five As

at Higher, if you are a young carer or come from a deprived background

or some other challenging circumstances that some young

people come from, is at time a greater achieve and bigger

challenge. The argument against that is you have to stop this at

some point. There is a good reason for that, because when people go

out into the big wide world and get a job, employers are not going to

say you want to be an engineer, we understand you don't really

understand aerodynamics very well but you come from a poor background

so we will take you on. Totally agree. I have no desire to lower

aspiration, I would like a better of what high achievement is for

them. The other thing about that research done by the top up

programme at Glasgow University showed people who went through the

top up programme performed better at university, than young people

from so-called wealthier backgrounds, by the time they left

university, so there is no sense those young people... Are

disadvantage, in fact they did better. Very brief last word to

Stephen Magee. Very brief. You have heard what they want from you. What,

one thing you would like from them? I would like to work with them to

encourage aspiration, that is the most important thing Welsh are

committed to do it. If we can raise aspiration across the piece, that

will help everybody. All right. We will have to leave it there. Thank

you very much indeed. Quick look at you very much indeed. Quick look at

the front pages. The BBC is on the The Independent, there it is

supergrass who held key to Russian fraud is found dead in Surrey.

Ministers blame each other for low growth according to the financial

times. That is it, I will be back Different complexion to weather in

the next few days, more typical of late November and December, mostly

dry, which has to be good news. Not quite there yet. Some showers still

affecting parts of North East England, I am not anticipating huge

amounts of rain. In fact a bit of snow developing on the North York

Moors. Other county eastern England are prone to one or two showers but

the emphasis is on dry weather, and further west there will be few if

any showers. Sunshine in Wales and south-west England, so the clearing

up operation can continue here. Cold though, the wind coming from

the north. Temperatures never getting that high, despite the

sunshine. Sicks and sevens will be the peak in most places. Up across

Northern Ireland, after a frosty is that right, I think it is set to be

a fine day, with plenty of sunshine. The risk of a shower to the north

coast. Across the north of Scotland there will be a few wintry showers.

Most of Scotland will stay dry and bright. Two or three degrees

through the central bout belt. Northern parts of the country,

bright and dry, the emphasis on frosty night, bright chilly days,

further south as well, most places will be dry. There is the risk of

one or two wintry showers as we get through Thursday, and on into

Friday, but there few and far between on Thursday it will be