04/12/2012 Newsnight


04/12/2012

The Autumn Statement. The whistle blowing Russian lawyer who died in jail. Atheist scouts. Why are Clarks shoes beloved in Jamaica? With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Lunchtime tomorrow is the time for bad news. In the annual assessment

:00:14.:00:18.

of the state of the economy, we shall learn how badly mangled the

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Government as policies have been, by their head-on collision with

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reality. It doesn't look good. Losing Britain's triple-A rate

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something politically almost suicide, having your banks go bust

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is almost political suicide. Slashing the welfare budget by

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taking out the pensions political suicide, everything is bad for the

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Chancellor at this stage. Is it time the Chancellor of the

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Exchequer stopped pretending he has any control over events?

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How the imprisonment, torture and death of this man have spurred the

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US Congress into a crackdown on Russia.

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Hundreds of Russian officials are set to be banned from entering the

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United States, and have any assets there frozen. A similar law may

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soon be coming to Britain. As NATO decides to send anti-

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missile defences to the Turkish- Syria border, is Damascus really

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preparing to use chemical weapons. How sensible shoes took over

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Jamacia. From the number one station, here comes UhUhUh, whether

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you wrong or right, you gotta listen to Newsnight. Don't get the

:01:29.:01:39.
:01:39.:01:39.

blues, it is all about the shoes. The Government was busily getting

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its reaction in first today, before George Osborne stands up in the

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House of Commons tomorrow, and tells us all what a terrible state

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the economy and the public finances are in. So, tomorrow morning's

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papers will report �5 billion of our money being spent on schools,

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transport, science and so on. But come lunchtime, Mr Osborne will

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have to come clean. In his Autumn Statement, he will have to give us

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the rest of the picture. Paul Mason is here with the full bucketload of

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gloom. What are you expecting him to say?

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Two years ago the Chancellor did put the lid on what could have been

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quite a bad position for the UK, an insipient debt crisis in Europe and

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everyone else getting dragged into it, by laying out two targets, the

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debt and the deficit, one is the long-term loan and the other is the

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debts. They said they would wipe out the deficit in five years and

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get the debt rolling by the end of parliament. We will find out

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tomorrow that he will miss both targets, it is highly unlikely he

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will hit either of them. That is not the end of the world -- you

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could, under normal circumstances say, and he has done it before, we

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will do more austerity. This time last year they said more austerity,

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and it will last longer. This �5 billion announcement today is a

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straw in the wind that says they will not do that. They could have

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send said departments find �5 billion to wipe out the debt and

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deficit, instead they are using it to spend. If there was a letter

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between A and B, we would be on plan, whatever that letter of. This

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is not Plan A any more. What about plan K or L or M?,

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can't go on doing austerity forever. That is what they are effectively

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recognising. There comes a point when the markets say they don't

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believe you? In the moment they are in disbelief mode, even the Germans

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were rumoured to be seeing a downgrading of their credit status,

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it didn't happen. All the European instruments reflecting the state of

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the European economy are being downgraded. We have had triple-A

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rating t says our debt is 100% solid. Even if you lost it, the

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consensus is it wouldn't be the end of the world, because everyone else

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is losing their's. The problem comes when people look at the ways

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out, they say there is no growth, the austerity is at the end, you

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can't politically do any more what do you do? Historically we know

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what Governments do, they wipe out the debt by allowing inflation.

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This is the concern of some of the investors I have been speaking. To

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When you stand in the City of London and look around, you see

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messages about greatness, stability, a global economy built on

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reputation. In times of great stress, goes the message, we

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produce great men, philanthropists, builders, leaders.

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It is clearly taking longer to deal with Britain's debts. It is clearly

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taking longer to recover from the financial crisis than anyone would

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have hoped. But we have made real progress.

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But how much longer? On the answer to that hangs the possibility of

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huge budget cuts, lasting well into the next parliament.

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The idea of Britain, as a triple-A nation, whose debt is always under

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control, whose money is always good, is ingrained into the very fabric

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of this country. But tomorrow we could find out we are just like

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everywhere else, that our fiscal promises are equally capable of

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being broken. It is all about growth, this is

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what they thought receipt coverry would look like two years ago, and

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this is the reality. Way lower. And the forecast made last March says

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it will take three more years to get back on track. Tomorrow, there

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is a new forecast. The experts say it will be lower still. That means

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the Chancellor could miss his targets for getting the debt and

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deficit down, putting Britain's triple-A rating at risk.

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triple-A rating will matter a lot, both because it is part of

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Britain's international repcation as major financial centre. It --

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reputation as a major financial centre, but also George Osborne's

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reputation, he said that is how we should measure his performance as a

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Chancellor, the triple-A rating. If it goes that is a huge blow to him.

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What are the chances of it going? They are pretty high.

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David Cameron ordered Whitehall to make 1% extra cuts to fund a new �5

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billion investment fund in schools and infrastructure. We are very

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excited and surprised to be able to ask the leader of our country some

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questions. The questions beyond this London school room are obvious,

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is it realistic to go on pruning away at small, departmental

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budgets? It is very realistic, because Government departments

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aren't actually spending up to their budgets. So I think we can

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say to them, you have to cut back some spending, including some

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unnecessary spending, let's put that money into things that will

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make a difference in our country and our economy.

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But, when it comes to the tens of billions they will need to balance

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the book, there is a bigger choice that could affect all of us. Slash

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spending on welfare, or cut the budgets of the very departments

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protected today. The right thing to do is to take off the ring-fence of

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health and education. If you were to cut health and education

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spending by the average 17.5% spending reduction that is were

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imposed on other departments, that would get you about �25 billion.

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would be politically suicidal? Absolutely there aren't any

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politically happy ways forward here. Losing Britain's triple-A rating is

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political sued side, slashing the welfare budget by taking out the

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pensions is political suicide, everything is bad for the

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Chancellor at this stage. Government looks set to spend �680

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billion this year. If you are going to cut hard there are only a few

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big budgets you can cut from. Welfare is the biggest, health and

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social care just behind, then education, the rest is small

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compared to that. But for savers, and that includes

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everybody with a company pension, or saving for a house, tomorrow's

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figures raise a different kind of worry. That, if it can't cut, or

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grow its way out of the debt, the Government might be tempted to

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sneakly inflate its way out. If investors think the Government is

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prepared to let inflation eat away at the value of the debt, there is

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an obvious danger. What do investors worry about this when

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they see this level of debt? readers worried about financial

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repression, that is when you keep interest rates lower than the rate

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of inflation. That destroys the value of savings and investments,

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it is the most politically expedient way to escape from huge

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debts. If investors think the Government's prepared to let

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inflation eat away at the value of the debt, there is an obvious

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danger. The big danger for Britain is that people realise that is the

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only way out, and we get either a gilt market strike, or a currency

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collapse as a result. Two years ago, the City applauded

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as cuts and tax rises, and said the worries of the markets over the

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debt. And now, the Chancellor is out on a limb.

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Autumn Statements used to be about a few hundred million here or there.

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Tomorrow will be about how big a hit the economy has taken, and, how

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big a hit there has been to the Chancellor's reputation too.

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It was, afterall, the Conservative manifesto, in 2010, which promised

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we will safeguard Britain's credit rating with a credible plan to

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eliminate the bulk of the structural deficit over a

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parliament. Well, the credit rating is far from

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safeguarded, the promise of eliminating the deficit by 2015,

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has evaporated. We will find out the hard facts about debt and

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deficit tomorrow. With us now are Elissa Bayer, the

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senior -- a senior invest director, and Clare McNeil from the Institute

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for Public Policy Research, and Gillian Tett, azestant editor of

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the Financial Times. How -- Assistant editor of the Financial

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Times. How big a deal is this tomorrow? It is a huge deal. It has

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only got worse with macro-economic situations, the Chancellor faces

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two nasty Balancing acts. He has to some how persuade the market that

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he's not increasing austerity, and but also not going overboard. He

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has to walk a tight rope. At the same time he has to persuade the

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population what he's doing is fair, and get people to buy into it. That

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is like parent with two custard creams trying to divide it between

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three kids, whatever happens everyone will complain. Or everyone

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gets a few crumbs, perhaps? Exactly. Supposing that we were to lose our

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triple-A rating, as was alluded to there a couple of times. How big a

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deal would that be? I think for the last year or so we have lived with

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smoke and mirrors, do we really have a triple-A meeting, even worse

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than that of the United States, who won't talk about the subject. That

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is a certain. But, Gillian and I were looking, I look after private

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investors, can we touch Government stocks at the moment, the prices

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are inflated beyond belief, if you hold them all you will do is lose

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money. The markets are saying there is a query on the status, even

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though it hasn't been altered. Would it matter if we lost the

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triple-A status? It matters for our borrowing, yes it doeser ma. It is

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all about status, they don't want to lose it. But if you look at the

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countries downgraded, we're not too far off, in some respects. We are

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in the same boat, most of us? the boat isn't happy. To be cynical,

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if there was every a good moment to lose your credit rating, it is now.

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A lot of Europe is in deep problems. The US is engulfed in this huge

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great debate about whether it can get some budget deal before going

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over the fiscal cliff and has a crisis in two weeks time. Investors

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aren't necessarily going to be able to rush out and find another safe

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haven if they lose faith in the UK. It will be painful, but it is as

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good a time as possible to have the problem. This pledge that George

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Osborne made, we are all in this together, it doesn't look like that

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any longer? It doesn't, we know at the moment that the burden that's

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being placed on low-to-middle- income families is very high. Most

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of the cuts are from public services, welfare cuts, rather than

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from tax rises. We know that those on the lowest incomes use public

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services more, and they tend to rely on welfare more. So at the

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moment it seems the poorest, in some ways, are shouldering the

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majority of the burden here. rather agree? I completely agree, I

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know a lot about a community up in Liverpool, who are seeing some

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potentially horrible cuts down the road. There is already high levels

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of unemployment, people really rely on public services there. To take a

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small example, these days the Government is putting more and more

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of the services on-line t assumes everyone has internet, up there, in

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this part of Liverpool, they don't. The library has just been shut,

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which provided the Internet access. That is the on the ground detail,

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where people are really suffering, and where tomorrow's budget will

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just add to the squeeze, as Claire says. You say carry on letting the

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debt mount? You need to take a sensible approach to deficit

:13:41.:13:43.

reduction, we think when the economy is weak as it is at the

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moment, slow down the pace, and speed up once the economy is

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stronger. You can think about how you can introduce policies that

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will boost the economy, at the same time as supporting families. So

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childcare, for example, you know, raising the female employment rate

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would obviously positive in improving our tax base, we need to

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think more about those kinds of policies. If the Chancellor were to

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listen to that sort of counsel, to pay heed to the social damage that

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sounds as if it is being done by cuts that have already been made,

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and will be made. What would be the consequence, as far as somebody

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like you, looking at the economy, is concerned? I think the other

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thing, the more you do this, the worse it is getting. We are not

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very far down the line. That is the other problem, it will get worse.

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That is another thing that makes it more and more unattractive. But I

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suppose, our side, we look after people who, I think, have saved,

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who have made effort, who have been prudent. He's looking at that all

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the time. He's trying to reduce what they have got. I'm seeing more

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and more clients give more money to their children, and the children

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are in their 50s. It is just a spiral at the moment. I can't see

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inheritance tax to be much of a problem, they won't have it to pay.

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It is hitting the middle all time. You are not serving the lower,

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because they haven't got it t and you are attacking the middle.

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Presumably these people who have savings are damaged once inflation

:15:01.:15:05.

gets going, that is another suggestion, you kind of relax

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inflation targets, and the debt starts to go away, gradually?

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and deposit rates will not go up any time, are they? What is

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desperately needed is somebody who can actually rally the country

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round some common vision, and almost invoke that Churchillian,

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blitz spirit that we are all in it together? That is what they claim

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to be doing? They claim, but it is three years. You can pull that

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rallying cry once or twice, when you have a clear-cut enemy, right

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now people are worried about how long it will last and who is

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responsible for this, and is the pain being shared out fairly, and

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do people still have enough incentive to buy into the kind of

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vision the Chancellor will try to present tomorrow. You have

:15:48.:15:52.

different ideas of who is being unfairly penalised, does any of you

:15:52.:15:57.

feel that there is any fairness in this strategy. Do you Gillian?

:15:57.:16:00.

are certainly trying to find that. It was very telling that they have

:16:00.:16:04.

now taken to pointing the finger at foreign corporation, that is a very

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convenient way to say we will get more tax on them, whether it is

:16:08.:16:11.

Starbucks with or Google, or somebody else like that. We will

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see more and more of that going forward. The Chancellor is clearly

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trying to position this budget that it is fair. There are measures that

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will try to hit those at the top, restricting pension tax relief for

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high earners, corporate tax, as Gillian says. And also measures to

:16:28.:16:32.

support people on middle income, freezing fuel duty, for example.

:16:32.:16:36.

But the reality is there is some very difficult choices to be made.

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It is positive that there money going into infrastructure, but

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squeezing frontline services isn't sustainable. This question about

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choices, it is an illusion, isn't it, there is room for manoeuvre?

:16:52.:16:55.

There is a question about a balancing act, they are walking

:16:55.:16:59.

down a high wire right now. Very subtle presentation issues, and

:16:59.:17:03.

subtle swings to the right or left will have a big impact now. Do you

:17:03.:17:06.

think there is choice? No, I think politics are she short-term, they

:17:06.:17:10.

are look to go 2015, and they have said not much will happen while

:17:10.:17:13.

there is a coalition, you actually need to do things, and you will

:17:13.:17:17.

upset more people. Maybe you can start moving this economy. That is

:17:17.:17:20.

what is important. If the predicament is so great, and the

:17:20.:17:26.

area for manoeuvre is so, very, very narrow, it doesn't rather make

:17:26.:17:29.

you think what 2015 will be about. Whether anyone can offer anything

:17:29.:17:33.

terribly different? No, and I think there is an international

:17:33.:17:36.

disillusionment with politics, which is correct. What can they do?

:17:36.:17:39.

But I think the talking about it, people are fed up with that,

:17:39.:17:43.

actually you do need to do something. I have just come from a

:17:43.:17:46.

charity dinner, more and more is being put on the charities. Where

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do he they think the money is coming from?

:17:55.:18:01.

The a chief economist from the BIF, gave a devastating speech and

:18:01.:18:04.

pointed out that economic cycles happen in multidecade periods, and

:18:04.:18:07.

Governments only last for a few years. You have the fundamental

:18:07.:18:11.

clash right now, you need Governments to be able to take a

:18:11.:18:15.

five-year or ten-year view, yet unfortunately they are looking at

:18:15.:18:19.

one or two years at most. That is a real problem. There is no way

:18:19.:18:23.

around that? Not at the moment, no. Not unless you believe in

:18:23.:18:29.

democracy? Or you look like technocratic solutions like Monti

:18:29.:18:32.

in Italy. Maybe the next decade will be about people questioning

:18:32.:18:35.

the balance of how democracy works and looking at more technocratic

:18:35.:18:39.

solutions. The economic choices confronting the west right now are

:18:39.:18:43.

so painful, that the pressure won't evaporate quickly. There are

:18:43.:18:49.

clearly tough choices, we shouldn't be too, throw up our hands too much,

:18:49.:18:55.

there are decisions thatkg made now, investing more in skills and

:18:55.:18:58.

apprenticeships, which will improve levels of production in our economy,

:18:58.:19:03.

move us towards a more innovative economy. Policies like childcare,

:19:03.:19:08.

for example, which can produce more bang for their buck. We must also

:19:08.:19:12.

think about what can be done in the here and now, as well as

:19:12.:19:15.

considering the difficult situation we find ourselves now. You take

:19:15.:19:18.

something like the Standard, when they have a campaign to get people

:19:18.:19:21.

out there to help, people to go into schools, people to help with

:19:21.:19:26.

reading, people come forward. It is motivating people in the right way.

:19:26.:19:30.

I was talking to my clients over the Olympic, the Olympics did a

:19:30.:19:33.

great thing. I have just been away, and people said fantastic what we

:19:33.:19:40.

did. If you built on something like that, that is progress, getting

:19:40.:19:43.

people all facing the same way and seeing a benefit.

:19:43.:19:47.

The American Congress looks to be on the verge of passing a law

:19:47.:19:53.

guaranteed to irritate Russia. Moscow is warning of what it calls

:19:53.:19:56.

"harsh counter action" in retaliation for legislation to be

:19:56.:19:59.

debated in Congress tomorrow. Which will bring in all sorts of

:19:59.:20:01.

restrictions on people said to have been involved in human rights

:20:01.:20:07.

abuses. The trigger is the death of a lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky. But the

:20:07.:20:10.

case has potential implications, right across relations between

:20:10.:20:15.

Russia and the west. In a moment we will talk to the man taking the

:20:15.:20:21.

bill through the US Senate. First Mark Urban reports.

:20:21.:20:25.

It has emerged that it demonstrates it was definitely Magnitsky to

:20:25.:20:33.

blame. A convicted thief, a has given us his testimony confirming

:20:33.:20:38.

the link between Mr Magnitsky. He was told in no uncertain terms that

:20:39.:20:45.

the mastermind of the whole affair was Sergei Magnitsky. The play, One

:20:45.:20:51.

Hour 18 Minute, was performed in London last week. It is about the

:20:51.:20:54.

last moments of Sergei Magnitsky. He died in a Russian prison three

:20:54.:20:57.

years ago, while working for a businessman, who is determined to

:20:58.:21:03.

hold those responsible to account. Whenever we had big worries or big

:21:03.:21:07.

problems, or big situations, he would be just as much of a

:21:07.:21:12.

counsellor to us as a legal specialist. He was just a decent

:21:12.:21:16.

really good-hearted guy. Sergei did not want to compromise his

:21:16.:21:21.

integrity by doing what would have made his life much easier, they

:21:21.:21:28.

would have stopped torturing them if he had perjuryed himself, he

:21:28.:21:33.

refused to do -- perjured himself. Knowing he died doing that,

:21:33.:21:36.

protecting me from what they were torturing himself into doing, is

:21:36.:21:39.

the most unpleasant, painful thought that anyone could ever have.

:21:39.:21:44.

That is what drives me, every day, to make sure that for him, trying

:21:45.:21:51.

to protect me, that he died, I have to protect him pros tu mostly and

:21:51.:21:58.

make sure they -, -- posthumously, and make sure they don't get away

:21:58.:22:02.

with it. This could bring Russia into fresh controversy, as a new

:22:02.:22:06.

law in the United States targets hundreds of Russians officials.

:22:06.:22:10.

Hopefully a year from now we will be sitting in a seat where we can

:22:10.:22:14.

say that Sergei Magnitsky's death changed the way in which human

:22:14.:22:17.

rights abuses are being dealt w and the way they are being dealt with

:22:17.:22:23.

going forward, not just his case, but other cases, is take away their

:22:23.:22:27.

visas and take away their assets. Russia can keep this Magnitsky law

:22:27.:22:31.

as normal, it is not normal from our point of view. It is

:22:31.:22:38.

discrimination of Russians. We don't want to a low anybody to

:22:38.:22:41.

believe that somebody can discriminate against Russians and

:22:41.:22:47.

to have no responsibility. Bill Browder's company bought a

:22:47.:22:50.

Russian business, and soon discovered it to be involved in a

:22:50.:22:55.

huge tax fraud. Sergei Magnitsky was digging into that, when he was

:22:55.:23:04.

arrested and thrown into Moscow's notorious Boutirka prison. The list

:23:04.:23:08.

of those abusing and killing him amounted to 60 people. Some from

:23:08.:23:12.

the prison were fired, and others cleared by Russian investigations.

:23:12.:23:15.

Let me just share with my colleagues, just a little bit about

:23:15.:23:19.

the life and death of Sergei Magnitsky. But such is the evidence

:23:19.:23:24.

now accumulating against those on the list, that the House of

:23:24.:23:28.

Representatives last month passed the Magnitsky Act, banning those

:23:28.:23:32.

held responsible from entering the US, owning property there, and

:23:32.:23:36.

freezing any assets. Campaigners are now seeking similar legislation

:23:36.:23:40.

in the UK, with support even from a former ambassador to Moscow.

:23:40.:23:47.

would very much like to see the UK and the EU, western European

:23:47.:23:57.

countries, pass the same law. Not because I'm anti-law, but Russia is

:23:57.:24:00.

suffering from a cancer of corruption, and a cancer of out of

:24:00.:24:02.

control security and authorities, this sort of action by western

:24:02.:24:11.

countries will help them to get this sort of thing under control.

:24:11.:24:19.

Tony Brenton had a number of stand- offs with Russian officialdom while

:24:19.:24:23.

there. Britain also pointed the finger at Russian state security

:24:23.:24:31.

for attempting to assassinate exiled tycoon, Berseovsky in the UK.

:24:31.:24:38.

The unexplained death of another Russian, Mr Alexander Perepilichny,

:24:38.:24:40.

threatens further stress in the relationship. Mr Perepilichny died

:24:40.:24:45.

while out jogging in Surrey. He had been giving evidence to those

:24:45.:24:48.

investigating Sergei Magnitsky's death, and the tax fraud he was

:24:48.:24:52.

probing. In the summer of 2010 we received

:24:52.:24:58.

an e-mail from an unknown man named Alexander Perepilichny. Who said

:24:58.:25:01.

that he had some information on some of the tax officials, the

:25:01.:25:05.

people who did the illegal tax refund, about how they got rich,

:25:05.:25:09.

and how their money went to Switzerland. We thought that was a

:25:09.:25:13.

very interesting suggestion. And so we met with him, he showed up with

:25:13.:25:17.

what I would describe as a treasure trove of documents. Russia's

:25:17.:25:22.

Foreign Ministry has reacted to the passage of the UK Magnitsky Act, by

:25:22.:25:26.

accusing the Americans of double standards, and threatening a harsh

:25:26.:25:34.

response. There has been speculation about reciprocol bans,

:25:34.:25:41.

and harsh trade agreements, and even disruption to key agreement on

:25:41.:25:44.

the UN Security Council. Sergei Magnitsky was 37 years old, he left

:25:44.:25:48.

behind a wife and two children. the Magnitsky Act goes through

:25:48.:25:52.

Congress, many names are being added to it, some seeking also to

:25:52.:25:56.

extend it to Russian officials accused of other crimes. It is

:25:56.:26:00.

becoming a template for action, against a broad swathe of

:26:00.:26:05.

officialdom. In London, and other European capitals, Russian

:26:05.:26:10.

diplomats anticipate similar battles, as new Magnitsky Acts are

:26:10.:26:15.

put forward in these different countries. Already human rights

:26:15.:26:18.

campaigners have expanded the original list to hundreds of

:26:18.:26:23.

Russian official, they believe that carrying Onyango this path is

:26:23.:26:28.

essential to Chancellor -- on in this path is essential to

:26:28.:26:31.

challenging the corruption and illegality in Putin's Russia.

:26:31.:26:35.

have to understand who the Russians are, they are extremely aggressive

:26:35.:26:39.

group of people, who have all sorts of criminal interests. To some how

:26:39.:26:43.

try to appease them, over the hopes that they might be nice to you, it

:26:43.:26:48.

is like a battered wife hoping that the husband will not beat them the

:26:48.:26:53.

next time. We have leavenage here. People don't seem to understand --

:26:53.:26:58.

leverage here, people don't seem to understand, that targeted sanctions

:26:58.:27:01.

against corrupt officials, in countries like the UK and the US,

:27:01.:27:05.

and France, is about the biggest leverage you could ever have.

:27:05.:27:09.

We remember him every minute of every day. Sergei Magnitsky met a

:27:09.:27:13.

lonely and lingering death, in a Moscow jail cell. Remembered

:27:14.:27:18.

initially by those who loved him, or who he worked with, his name is

:27:18.:27:22.

set to appear on the US statute book, a rallying point for those

:27:22.:27:32.

who wish to change Russia. Senator Ben Cardin is on Capitol

:27:32.:27:36.

Hill. Do you know how many people will be subject to this law if it

:27:36.:27:40.

is enacted? The number of people that will be subjected are those

:27:40.:27:43.

that were involved, those that we have clear evidence that were

:27:43.:27:46.

involved. We're not going to release the numbers, but at this

:27:46.:27:50.

point it is those who attempt to come to our country, are not going

:27:50.:27:53.

to be able to. Those who want to use our banking system, won't be

:27:53.:27:58.

able to do it. We don't want their illegal gains to be hidden in

:27:58.:28:01.

America, or for them to be able to visit their wealth here in America.

:28:01.:28:06.

It is the right standard. We call it the Magnitsky Standard, we want

:28:06.:28:11.

it to be used internationally we think that those who are violators

:28:11.:28:13.

of gross international human rights standards, shouldn't benefit from

:28:13.:28:17.

being able to visit, or hide their money in another country. But to be

:28:17.:28:20.

clear about this, will they know that they are on the list, and how

:28:20.:28:26.

will they be able to get off the list? They will be known when the

:28:26.:28:30.

list is released, there will be a list. Quite frankly, they will know

:28:30.:28:36.

if they can come to America or not. They try it apply for visas,

:28:36.:28:39.

frankly, they know. The people involved here, this is not a hidden

:28:39.:28:43.

secret, we know the individuals, we have identified the individuals,

:28:43.:28:48.

they know who is involved here. The tragedy is the Russian federation

:28:48.:28:52.

hasn't taken action against them N some cases they have been promote.

:28:52.:28:56.

We are attempting to say, look, you have a responsibility as a country,

:28:56.:29:00.

to the rule of law and to hold accountable those who have violated

:29:00.:29:04.

basic human rights. This bill is really aimed at the Russians. The

:29:04.:29:07.

Russians deserve a better Government. Quite frankly, there

:29:07.:29:10.

have been many Russian business loaders, as well as citizen, who

:29:10.:29:14.

have urge -- leaders, as well as citizens, who have urged us, not

:29:14.:29:17.

just America, but other countries, to take action to help their

:29:17.:29:21.

country do what is right. There may be very senior figures in the

:29:21.:29:24.

Russian Government who could be on this list and prevented from coming

:29:24.:29:28.

to the United States, couldn't there, presumably? This bill is not

:29:28.:29:32.

aimed at political leaders, but those who are involved in

:29:32.:29:36.

corruption and the death of individuals who have tried to be

:29:36.:29:40.

responsible and bring this attention to their Government. It

:29:40.:29:44.

is gross violations of human rights that have cost people their lives

:29:45.:29:49.

and fortune. It is a well-focused, and not aimed at political leader.

:29:49.:29:56.

Vladimir Putin, though, sits at the top of that system? Mr Putin, we

:29:56.:30:01.

have concerns about him, it is not aimed at a political leader, as I

:30:01.:30:05.

said before, there would be no danger whatsoever, if if Mr Putin

:30:05.:30:09.

wants to visit the United States, he will be clearly welcomed in the

:30:09.:30:12.

United States, this bill is not aimed at the head of the Russian

:30:13.:30:16.

federation. It is aimed at those who were involved in the cover-up,

:30:16.:30:21.

those who were involved in the penetration of the crimes against

:30:21.:30:25.

Sergei Magnitsky. Why stop at Russia, though, why not apply this

:30:25.:30:32.

rule to China, to Saudi Arabia, to various other states in the gulf?

:30:32.:30:36.

We agree, it should be universal and global. We think it is the

:30:36.:30:40.

standard now, once Congress has enacted this, in regards to Russia,

:30:40.:30:43.

that this will become the international standard. I have

:30:43.:30:49.

talked to many of the co-sponsors of this lepblgs lakes, both in the

:30:49.:30:53.

House and the Senate, we intend for it to be applied to other countries.

:30:53.:30:58.

There will be those that says, what right does a country what ships

:30:58.:31:03.

people around the world, holds them in secret prisons and has trials

:31:03.:31:06.

throughout the world, what right do they have to lecture on human

:31:06.:31:10.

rights? We don't lecture, we believe in international standards,

:31:10.:31:17.

I believe we should be transparent in the way we deal with unlawful

:31:17.:31:20.

combatants, that is a more recent problems within the international

:31:20.:31:24.

community, there hud be international standards for dealing

:31:24.:31:28.

with unlawful combatant -- should be international standards for

:31:28.:31:32.

dealing with unlawful combatants. They pose a risk to all our

:31:32.:31:35.

countries, we need the information we need to keep our country safe,

:31:35.:31:39.

it has to be done in an appropriate way. Do you measure or take into

:31:39.:31:43.

account at all, the need to secure the co-operation of countries like

:31:43.:31:50.

Russia, which have pretty discreditable human rights records

:31:50.:31:54.

in many case, but they need to be on board to get some sort of peace,

:31:54.:31:58.

for example, in Siria. Don't they? It is interesting, I chair the

:31:58.:32:04.

United States Helsinki Commission, our participating arm in the

:32:04.:32:06.

Organisation for Security and Co- operation in Europe, I'm the Senate

:32:06.:32:09.

chair. Our responsibility as a member-state, Russia's

:32:09.:32:12.

responsibility as a member-state, is we have a responsibility to

:32:12.:32:17.

raise these issues. We think that good relations require us to be

:32:17.:32:22.

honest with our partners and say, look, we need help with regards to

:32:22.:32:25.

trade ordealing with Iran, ordealing with other issues, but it

:32:25.:32:30.

doesn't hold us back from our responsibility, to raise other

:32:31.:32:35.

issues concerning human rights. That is what a mature relationship

:32:35.:32:40.

involves, it is complicated and it is not one issue. Certainly it is

:32:40.:32:43.

our responsibility to raise the issues as we see fit.

:32:43.:32:47.

Thank you. Ever since Elvis Presley pulled on

:32:47.:32:52.

a pair of blue suede shoe, there has been a vital and much

:32:52.:32:56.

overlooked connection between footwear and music. Think Nancy

:32:56.:33:01.

Sinatra, Paul Simon, punks in Dr Martens, or rappers in deluxe

:33:01.:33:06.

trainers. There has surely never been a more likely pairing than the

:33:06.:33:10.

sensible, back-to-school shoes made by Clarke's of the West Country,

:33:10.:33:16.

and thumping baselines of Jamaican Reggie. Yet star perform mers there

:33:16.:33:21.

have gone to the top of the charts, by extolling the virtues of the

:33:21.:33:24.

brand which thousands of British children have only better at the

:33:24.:33:30.

behest of their man. A much-needed coffee table book has been written

:33:30.:33:35.

on the subject now. Steve Smith reports.

:33:35.:33:45.

So many feet, so many shoes. Can you tell just from this, that these

:33:45.:33:49.

are dancing feet! Some of us love a shoe shop, of

:33:49.:33:53.

course, for others it can be a bit of a drag. A reminder of buying a

:33:54.:33:59.

new pair for school. If only there was a bit more colour, and pizas,

:33:59.:34:09.
:34:09.:34:10.

to the whole shoe experience. # Teach your children

:34:10.:34:18.

# How to spell Stone me, it is only reggae great,

:34:18.:34:28.
:34:28.:34:29.

Dennis Alcapone. Dennis, fancy seeing you here?

:34:29.:34:33.

Dennis has long been a natty dresser, as evidenced by this

:34:33.:34:38.

picture for his LP Beguns Don't Argue. That goes for his footwear

:34:38.:34:44.

too. Not bragging and boasting, but Jamaicans are trend setters. We are

:34:44.:34:50.

fashion-conscious. From, I was a little boy growing up, it was

:34:50.:34:53.

always Clarke's. If you're not wearing the Clarke's, then you are

:34:53.:34:59.

not saying nothing. They seem to fit perfectly. She looks like a

:34:59.:35:03.

proper little Princess. Hang on a minute, are we talking

:35:03.:35:09.

about the same Clarke's. The perfectly good, but how to say it,

:35:09.:35:19.

intensely practical things that our mum's pushed us into.

:35:19.:35:27.

# Clarks me prefer Dear long suffering viewer, we are.

:35:27.:35:33.

Here is Jamaican dancehall thing, Vibes Cartel and things,

:35:33.:35:37.

celebrating his accesssory. Good to see an advertisment for good shoe

:35:37.:35:47.
:35:47.:35:49.

maintenance. # Let me get my Clarks

:35:49.:35:55.

# I'll show you Clarks. In the Caribbean, it turns out the

:35:55.:36:00.

unassuming lace-up and the ankle boot are the footwear of choice,

:36:00.:36:05.

beloved of the biggest names on the reggae scene. I have a full closet

:36:05.:36:15.
:36:15.:36:23.

of Clarks, more than any other Live and direct, straight!

:36:24.:36:28.

Of course, other brands of shoe, and I can't stress this too

:36:28.:36:35.

strongly, are also available. But why are Clarks so on-trend in

:36:35.:36:40.

Jamaica. A London-based DJ has gone in search of answers.

:36:40.:36:43.

Clarks are from England, and Jamaican people, generally,

:36:43.:36:48.

especially in the past, I would say, loved things that came from England,

:36:48.:36:53.

or way were made in England. They were made to a certain quality. If

:36:53.:36:56.

a Jamaican was coming to England, the number one thing that they

:36:56.:37:01.

would be asked to bring back would be Clarks. And then string vests!

:37:01.:37:11.

As a second thing. There is your follow-up book, right there! Yeah.

:37:11.:37:15.

Strip this story back to its roots, and you are left with utter

:37:15.:37:23.

cobblers, sigh rus and Sirus and James Clark who founded the

:37:23.:37:27.

business in the 18th sent treatment What on earth do you think they

:37:27.:37:31.

would make of these reggae guys loafing about in their shoes in the

:37:31.:37:37.

Caribbean? I think they would not really be surprised. I think Nathan

:37:38.:37:42.

Clark, who invented the desert boot, thought they were popular because

:37:42.:37:45.

they were naturally good-looking in a rugged way. I don't think they

:37:45.:37:48.

would be surprised that those sort of things that are valued in

:37:48.:37:54.

Jamaica, have made them a really popular style out there.

:37:54.:37:59.

While Popcaan relaxes on the set of his latest video in Jamaica, it is

:37:59.:38:06.

important to point out that this story isn't entirely sunny.

:38:06.:38:12.

One of his former collaborators is facing a murder charge. But, then,

:38:12.:38:17.

even the highly reputable Clarks, has found itself linked to a

:38:17.:38:22.

slightly dubious history. In Jamaican dancehalls, police once

:38:22.:38:27.

picked on young men wearing the shoes. They asked all people with

:38:27.:38:30.

Clarks boots to go one side, and people with other shoes to step to

:38:30.:38:35.

the other side. Why was that? rude boys wear Clarks. The rude

:38:35.:38:40.

boys? That is how they have it. Rude boys is mainly a street boy.

:38:40.:38:47.

Rude boys are people who love to dress good. By any means necessary.

:38:47.:38:50.

They might be a little bit, some of them might be in trouble with the

:38:50.:38:54.

law, shall we say? There is different dimensions. What they

:38:54.:38:59.

started doing, they started meeting the boys with the Clarks, because

:38:59.:39:06.

they said they are boys. No such trouble for Dennis Alcapone

:39:06.:39:14.

at the dancehall these days. Where he is swaging the greatness of mens

:39:14.:39:21.

wear. If you want to see this item again it is available on the

:39:21.:39:25.

iPlayer. When I'm going out to the dance, I have to be stepping in my

:39:26.:39:32.

Clarks boot. We're going to have another look at

:39:32.:39:36.

tomorrow morning's front pages now. The first look, the Duchess of

:39:36.:39:41.

Cambridge is all over most of the tabloids, but some of the other

:39:41.:39:44.

papers have tomorrow's Autumn Statement, though.

:39:44.:39:52.

Osborne hitting banks again in the Times, Paul, what is all that

:39:52.:40:01.

about? The i and i thinking there will be an extra tax on the banks.

:40:01.:40:03.

Another one? The article doesn't have any detail about that. We

:40:03.:40:10.

await the detail. But it is a clear thing, he has to come for all

:40:10.:40:14.

sections of British society, and the banks are people who clearly

:40:14.:40:22.

can have money to pay. I think the FT is more promising, in terms of

:40:22.:40:25.

concreteness. Osborne to extend austerity to 2018. Remember,

:40:25.:40:29.

famously, a year ago, on this programme, Danny Alexander, came on

:40:29.:40:33.

and said we are extending the austerity into the next parliament,

:40:34.:40:37.

2018. 2018 is quite a way into the next parliament. We are getting

:40:37.:40:42.

close to the parliament after it. But, again, in there, sources close

:40:42.:40:46.

to the Chancellor says he favour not doing that. He will try to

:40:46.:40:51.

stick to the original debt target. The FT does reckon we will see a

:40:51.:40:56.

very pessimistic, downgrade of growth forecast, which is the

:40:56.:40:59.

premise of the discussion we have had tonight. If we don't grow, we

:40:59.:41:02.

can't grow our way out of the deficit, we are in trouble.

:41:02.:41:06.

don't think he will say that? think he will say it, but the

:41:06.:41:09.

sources close to the Chancellor say he won't. So, I mean, look we just

:41:09.:41:13.

have to wait. It is only 12 hours, it is like Christmas, if you wait

:41:13.:41:21.

long enough we will find out what the presents are, and the Office

:41:21.:41:25.

for Budget Responsibility will be delivering them to us geeks of the

:41:25.:41:30.

statistical world. Enjoy. The Guardian with growth and NHS

:41:30.:41:35.

figures jolting Osborne? I mean look, the parties are very much on

:41:35.:41:40.

a sort of agenda of �1 billion here or there. Labour has hit back on

:41:40.:41:43.

the Conservatives' �5 billion spending move, saying that proves

:41:44.:41:47.

you shouldn't have cut it in the first place. There is a row going

:41:47.:41:52.

on about whether they have cut or not the NHS, with the official

:41:52.:41:56.

statisticians piling in on Labour's side tonight. These newspaper on

:41:56.:42:00.

the eve of one of the biggest turning points for the Government.

:42:00.:42:04.

Very interesting in that they indicate almost an eye of the storm

:42:04.:42:08.

inability to judge what the coalition is going to do. Some of

:42:08.:42:11.

us still think he might come up with something quite big tomorrow.

:42:11.:42:15.

Clearly none of the papers have got it. He hasn't made his speech yet,

:42:15.:42:21.

of course they don't know? If they were to say, look, we are going for

:42:21.:42:31.
:42:31.:42:31.

growth, and, or, we are goingor austerity, 2018 we will hit the

:42:31.:42:34.

targets, welfare getting a massive cut. It won a massive headline

:42:34.:42:39.

tomorrow. But the inability of the most politically connected papers

:42:39.:42:43.

to judge where the Government are coming from, tells you a bigger

:42:43.:42:47.

story about the narrative. I see the Telegraph going with the news

:42:47.:42:52.

that we are spending �2 billion on wind turbines in the third world.

:42:52.:42:57.

That is a different announcement? The day you get a wind turbine

:42:57.:43:01.

announcement for the third world, on the eve of an economic

:43:01.:43:07.

announcement, the day you know nobody really knows anything.

:43:07.:43:16.

Couple of other papers, saying Kate could be on the drip for weeks.

:43:16.:43:20.

That is the change in law of male inheritance. And the Independent is

:43:20.:43:24.

much more concerned about sperm. That's it, it's turned out that the

:43:24.:43:28.

news of the Duchess of Cambridgeshire's pregnancy hasn't

:43:28.:43:33.

just benefited the royal wind bag industry. Nick Nack makers are

:43:33.:43:38.

thrilled, and in Naples, the craftmen running up Nativity scenes,

:43:38.:43:45.

are slaving around the clock night and day to bring the tableau up to

:43:45.:43:49.

the minute. Joseph has a new look foo.

:43:49.:43:59.
:43:59.:44:14.

foo. -- too.

:44:14.:44:19.

Hello, an icey and potentially snowy start for some of news the

:44:19.:44:24.

morning. A band of sleet and wet snow across many areas. A covering

:44:24.:44:29.

in place, be aware of that in the morning. Once it clears, lots of

:44:29.:44:32.

sunshine. Crisp but cold into the afternoon, there will be wintry

:44:32.:44:36.

showers towards eastern and coastal counties, rain, sleet and hail

:44:36.:44:41.

along the coast. Inland they will fall in snow, giving a light

:44:41.:44:45.

covering where they fall too. Further west we have one or two

:44:45.:44:49.

showers pushing the far west of England. Away from these good sunny

:44:49.:44:53.

spells. Any sunshine does nothing for the pefrp tour, it will be aled

:44:53.:44:57.

cold day. For Northern Ireland the odd shower towards the north and

:44:57.:45:00.

north-east. The best of the sunshine will be further west.

:45:00.:45:04.

Across Scotland a fine day for many. We will start off with snow showers

:45:04.:45:07.

in the far north, a fresh covering here. They will fade away, it will

:45:08.:45:12.

be a cold day, many of us staying in frost. From Wednesday's sunshine

:45:12.:45:18.

to Thursday's wet and windy weather. The weather system moves in from

:45:18.:45:20.

the Atlantic, towards northern England and Scotland, snow over the

:45:20.:45:25.

hills, it will take a while for that rain to reach southern areas,

:45:25.:45:29.

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