25/01/2013 Newsnight


25/01/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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Triple-dip recession? Full on depression? The economy shrinks

:00:12.:00:14.

again. Is the Chancellor's plan shot?

:00:14.:00:18.

Out in the real world, one of life's strivers confronts the

:00:18.:00:21.

elephant in the room. All the bills are rising and we're not getting

:00:22.:00:26.

any extra money ourselves. What do you do? I'm a builder by trade.

:00:26.:00:31.

is that? Slow, very slow. Even London's mayor tells the

:00:31.:00:34.

Chancellor to junk talk of austerity. Is it time for a re-

:00:34.:00:39.

think? We ask the Government? Also tonight, we will have the

:00:39.:00:45.

latest from Mali, Steve Hewlett's there.

:00:45.:00:51.

As the Islamist rebels threaten to ban music in Mali, we talk to the

:00:51.:00:56.

musician who has gathered musicians together to sing about peace in

:00:56.:01:01.

their country. The German comedian, tells us what

:01:01.:01:07.

he would miss if we left the EU. sir talgia, before I moved to

:01:07.:01:11.

Britain, I didn't know how to goose step, if it wasn't for the BBC, I

:01:11.:01:21.
:01:21.:01:22.

still wouldn't know. Good evening, flat, stiing nant and sluggish,

:01:22.:01:27.

that is the optists. The rest are warning the economy faces a triple-

:01:27.:01:30.

dip recession, the first the country has seen in modern time.

:01:30.:01:34.

The latest figures show the country's economy shrank by 0.3%,

:01:34.:01:38.

numbers that lin crease the pressure on George Osborne to come

:01:38.:01:41.

-- will increase the pressure on George Osborne to come up with a

:01:41.:01:45.

Plan B and make it grow again. Arguably the biggest name in the

:01:45.:01:48.

Conservative Party called for the Chancellor to junk talk of

:01:48.:01:53.

austerity and crack on with major building projects to revitalise the

:01:53.:01:56.

economy. First, Paul Mason has been in Gravesend to see what it means

:01:56.:02:06.

close up. In a parallel world, where

:02:06.:02:09.

everything had gone right, Britain's trade routes would be

:02:09.:02:15.

awash with exports. Its high streets would be buzzing. Its

:02:15.:02:19.

manufacturing would be out of trouble. But they are not. One

:02:20.:02:23.

negative quarter is not a disaster, but what we are seeing here is the

:02:23.:02:27.

failure of a plan, the Government thought by now the economy would be

:02:27.:02:32.

well down the path of what it calls rebalancing. Away from reliance on

:02:32.:02:36.

state spending, and consumer spending, and towards manufacturing,

:02:36.:02:39.

and exports. That is just not happening fast enough.

:02:39.:02:44.

This is the third time growth has dipped below zero since the Lehman

:02:44.:02:49.

Brothers crisis. This time it has been driven by a 1.5% fall in

:02:49.:02:54.

manufacturing, combined with a one- off dip in oil production to take

:02:54.:02:58.

overall productive industries down by minus 1.8%. This was the first

:02:58.:03:01.

set of figures for two years, where Government spending fell as a

:03:01.:03:08.

driver of GDP, by 0.7%. So, overall, for the past 12 months, the economy

:03:08.:03:13.

has grown by a big, fat zero. And on the streets of Gravesend, in

:03:14.:03:18.

Kent, a town that boomed once, but now is not booming, they have

:03:18.:03:21.

noticed. Dire, I'm not working at the moment,

:03:21.:03:25.

I haven't been at work for the past month, no work. What are wages like

:03:25.:03:30.

when you do work? It goes up and down doesn't it. It depends where

:03:30.:03:32.

there is work, if there is work somewhere sometimes tough take it

:03:32.:03:37.

if it is a little bit less money. That the voice of a carpenter, this

:03:37.:03:42.

of a pub landlord. Does it feel like a triple-dip recession? Yes,

:03:42.:03:47.

very bad. Why? The pub is bad, trade is gone, no wages. What are

:03:47.:03:51.

you doing in the costume? Trying to boost trade. Everyone is waiting

:03:51.:03:56.

for the pay packet, as soon as it is in it is gone on bills, no

:03:56.:03:59.

luxury money. What about you? feel the same, no spare money,

:03:59.:04:03.

everything goes on bills, electric has gone up again. It is constantly

:04:03.:04:07.

rising and nothing's going up in the money, all the bills are rising

:04:07.:04:10.

and everything like that, we are not getting anything extra

:04:11.:04:16.

ourselves. What do you do? I'm a builder by trade. How is that?

:04:16.:04:20.

very slow. When it comes to green shoots amid all of this, economists

:04:20.:04:23.

can't see many. If you look at where the source of demand is

:04:23.:04:27.

coming from in the UK, it is not coming from consumers who are

:04:27.:04:33.

seeing their real wages eaten in to by inflation, it is not coming from

:04:33.:04:37.

banks, which are deleveraging, or the Government in the middle of

:04:37.:04:39.

implementing austerity measures, it is not coming from the global

:04:40.:04:43.

economy either. It is not surprising at all that the UK

:04:43.:04:47.

economy has gone back into stall speed and may dip into recession

:04:47.:04:50.

again. When it comes to long periods of suppressed growth, there

:04:50.:04:55.

is a word for it, depression. This was the shape of the last

:04:55.:04:59.

depression, output falling from 1930, but back up in positive

:04:59.:05:04.

territory by the start of 1934. Now, here's what we have lived through,

:05:05.:05:11.

shallower, but now 12 months longer and leaving the economy smaller

:05:11.:05:14.

than it was five years ago, and nowhere near getting back into

:05:14.:05:17.

positive territory. It is a reminder that Britain face as very

:05:17.:05:20.

tough economic situation. It is a reminder that last year was

:05:20.:05:23.

particularly difficult, both with the problems we have at home,

:05:23.:05:27.

dealing with the debts built up over many years. But also, frankly,

:05:27.:05:30.

the problems in the eurozone, where many of our exports go, which is is

:05:30.:05:35.

now in recession. We can either run away from those problems or

:05:35.:05:38.

confront them. I'm absolutely determined to confront them, so we

:05:38.:05:41.

can create jobs for the people of this country. The Chancellor had

:05:41.:05:47.

prepared for today's news by eating pizza, in Davos, with friend "Dave"

:05:47.:05:53.

and rival "Boris". The London mayor made a speech calling for the

:05:53.:05:59.

Government to junk the rhetoric of austerity and be confident. As for

:05:59.:06:03.

the opposition? We need action now to kick start the recoverry, a

:06:03.:06:07.

temporary VAT cut and bring forward public investment. As Nick Clegg

:06:07.:06:10.

said yesterday, get houses built and people back to work, boost

:06:10.:06:14.

confidence and get demand moving. I'm afraid it looks as if we will

:06:14.:06:17.

have the Government trying to laugh off what is happening in the

:06:17.:06:22.

economy. That is not good enough. In the search for answers,

:06:22.:06:24.

attention is turning to monetary policy, could the Bank of England

:06:24.:06:28.

start targeting, not inflation, but the rate of growth in Britain's now

:06:28.:06:33.

frozen factories and ports. Canadian Martha Kearney takes over

:06:33.:06:37.

at the bank in July, d Mark Kearney, takes over the bank in July, some

:06:37.:06:42.

want that to start a re-think. Should they use monetary policy and

:06:42.:06:45.

the ability of the Bank of England to create money, in different, more

:06:45.:06:48.

aggressive ways, which means that money goes directly and powerfully

:06:48.:06:52.

into the economy. The arrival of a new governor, who certainly is

:06:52.:06:55.

thinking about these sorts of issues, and is aware of these

:06:56.:07:00.

challenges, is, I think, the ideal occasion to re-think the strategy

:07:00.:07:07.

we have been following, which seems to me obvious is not working.

:07:07.:07:12.

causes of today's dip are a mixture of external conditions and domestic

:07:12.:07:16.

ones, but policy is the one thing you can control. You can, if you

:07:16.:07:20.

want, blame the euro crisis, and austerity here, but ultimately

:07:20.:07:24.

today's policy comes down to this. If you say you are going to

:07:24.:07:28.

rebalance the economy, and promote growth, using Government policy,

:07:28.:07:34.

you actually have to have a policy and it has to work.

:07:34.:07:39.

For now, George Osborne is sticking to his policy, though mutterings in

:07:39.:07:43.

the coalition and his party are getting louder.

:07:43.:07:47.

Joining me now is David Gauke, the Exchequer secretary to the Treasury.

:07:47.:07:54.

You must be incredibly disappointed? Obviously we would

:07:54.:07:58.

want stronger growth than in 2012, 2012 is a difficult year, for the

:07:58.:08:01.

UK and other places as well. In fact, the numbers we have seen

:08:01.:08:05.

today are broadly in line with what the Office of Budget Responsibility

:08:05.:08:10.

said last year. If you look over 2012. So not surprising, not really

:08:10.:08:14.

disappointing at all? The fact that the economy contracts in the last

:08:14.:08:19.

quarter of last year is not a big surprise. And there was no growth

:08:19.:08:23.

last year. Clearly we would want growth. The question is why is that

:08:23.:08:26.

happening and what can we do to get growth in the future. The reason

:08:26.:08:29.

why it is happening is we have the eurozone crisis, we have commodity

:08:29.:08:34.

prices higher than we would like, and we have been dealing with the

:08:34.:08:39.

aftereffects of the financial crisis of 2007/08. You could

:08:39.:08:43.

mention the snow if you need more reasons! That is not what the

:08:43.:08:47.

Government has set out but the Office of Budget Responsibility has

:08:47.:08:51.

set out why we were struggling this year. You have managed to achieve

:08:51.:08:53.

something remarkable, you have put the economy into reverse three

:08:53.:08:59.

times, we are heading for a triple- dip recession? The Office of Budget

:08:59.:09:04.

Responsibility predicted that the last quarter of 2012 would be a

:09:04.:09:08.

contraction, they are predicting that the first quarter of 2013, the

:09:08.:09:13.

economy will grow. This is your policy? That is the point I was

:09:13.:09:16.

making a moment or so ago, the reasons why the economy has gone

:09:16.:09:20.

through a difficult spell are because of these particular factors,

:09:20.:09:23.

how do we get growth? I don't believe that borrowing more money

:09:23.:09:27.

is the solution to those problems. What we want to do is make sure

:09:27.:09:31.

that we get lending through to businesses. When you listen to

:09:31.:09:35.

those voices in Gravesend, people saying there is no spare money, the

:09:35.:09:38.

bills are constantly rising, there is no trade, there is no wages, the

:09:38.:09:42.

whole point of your plan for austerity is it was meant to be

:09:42.:09:48.

offset by growth, that of the policy, and the policy has failed?

:09:48.:09:51.

The reasons why growth has been disappointing over the last two

:09:51.:09:56.

years. Disappointing, there has been nothing, it has not grown?

:09:56.:09:59.

has been disappointing for the very reasons I have set out, the

:09:59.:10:03.

question is how do we get that growth. The answer isn't more

:10:03.:10:06.

borrowing that puts at risk higher interest rates, the answer is to

:10:06.:10:09.

try to get rid some of those regulations that hold back

:10:09.:10:12.

businesses, it is about getting money through to businesses, with

:10:12.:10:17.

the funding through lending scheme, it is about switching spending to

:10:17.:10:19.

infrastructure, capital spending. Things like science, David Willetts

:10:19.:10:22.

was on this programme last night setting out what we are doing.

:10:22.:10:25.

Within your own Government and your own party Nick Clegg has admitted

:10:25.:10:30.

those capital spending cuts were a mistake. You have heard from Boris

:10:30.:10:33.

Johnson, the biggest name in your party, saying junk the austerity

:10:33.:10:37.

talk. He's telling the Chancellor to do is. Is there a Plan B now?

:10:37.:10:41.

is absolutely right that we made the case why we had to take very

:10:41.:10:44.

difficult action to deal with the deficit, we needed to make that

:10:44.:10:48.

case. We still need to make that case. You haven't dealt with the

:10:48.:10:52.

deficit, it has actually increased? It is 25% lower than it was. It has

:10:52.:10:58.

increased in the last 12 month. is lower than it was when we came

:10:58.:11:04.

into the office. It increased in the last 12 months, that is where

:11:04.:11:06.

you are? The Office of Budget Responsibility predict the deficit

:11:07.:11:10.

will continue to fall, but we will wait for the time of the budget.

:11:10.:11:15.

The reality is, if we had not taken difficult decisions on spending and

:11:15.:11:19.

tax, we would have a deficit still in similar terms to where we were

:11:19.:11:23.

two years ago, and that would have put our credibility at risk. Most

:11:23.:11:26.

people hearing this, you are talking about credibility and the

:11:26.:11:30.

credit rating, most people will say we don't care about that as much as

:11:30.:11:33.

we care about growth. We need to see things happening in the economy,

:11:34.:11:38.

this is what we feel, every day in our pockets, when do you say, do

:11:38.:11:42.

you know, we got it wrong, time for a U-turn? I tell you why it matters,

:11:42.:11:46.

it matters because we don't have that credibility, we will see

:11:46.:11:49.

interest rates rise, we will see mortgage rates rise, we will see it

:11:49.:11:53.

harder for businesses to get access to finance. So there will be no

:11:53.:11:56.

concession to what is going on now? That is damaging for the economy.

:11:56.:12:00.

You are sticking rigidly to this plan, there will be no turn? It is

:12:00.:12:04.

vital that we are determined to bring down the deficit, but

:12:04.:12:07.

alongside that, we have to continue to do. It is credibility over

:12:07.:12:13.

growth, bluntly? Not at all. That is where we are? There is no

:12:13.:12:17.

tension between the two. A precondition for growth is

:12:17.:12:20.

credibility. There is a tension between the two, that is what you

:12:20.:12:24.

are told, Boris Johnson has said we cannot risk losing confidence, it

:12:24.:12:29.

is time to junk talk of austerity. The IMF has said if things don't

:12:29.:12:34.

get better we need to do austerity slower. Jim O'Neil has said the

:12:34.:12:38.

same, the head of Goldman Sachs, are these voices not credible?

:12:39.:12:44.

need to demonstrate a show of getting our public finances under

:12:44.:12:49.

control, we need to put in place and impli mate the policies we have

:12:49.:12:53.

announced. About support for conditions and infrastructure and a

:12:53.:12:55.

competitive tax system it, those are the steps this Government is

:12:55.:13:00.

taking to ensure we get the long- term growth. There is a very clear

:13:00.:13:02.

desire and strategy by this Government to get growth. But the

:13:02.:13:06.

idea that the solution to these problems is if we borrow �160

:13:06.:13:11.

billion a year, that all those problems go away is nonsense.

:13:11.:13:15.

Great to have you here, if you can hold on we can talk to France

:13:16.:13:22.

O'Grady, the General Secretary of the tuck, and -- TUC, and the

:13:22.:13:24.

former member of the Monetary Policy Committee. What do you make

:13:25.:13:29.

of what we have just heard, France O'Grady, that the solution is not

:13:29.:13:33.

just to borrow more and make cuts? The Government's austerity policy

:13:33.:13:38.

has lost all credibility. Frankly, last time we heard a Conservative-

:13:38.:13:43.

led Government say there is no alternative, it didn't end well. We

:13:43.:13:48.

have got zero growth, austerity is faileding, and employment is still

:13:48.:13:51.

far too high, -- failing, and employment is far too high, with a

:13:52.:13:56.

quarter of all young people long- term unemployed. Real problems with

:13:56.:13:59.

ordinary working people suffering the third year of real pay cuts. We

:14:00.:14:03.

have sucked demand out of the economy. Business confidence is low,

:14:03.:14:07.

because consumer confidence is low. People haven't got money to spend.

:14:07.:14:14.

It was good to hear Nick Clegg say sorry for cutting �22 billion off

:14:14.:14:18.

capital investment, but he also said people need money in their

:14:18.:14:24.

pockets. In which case, why have a 1% cap on benefits and wages, let's

:14:24.:14:29.

look at wages-led growth, a good industrial policy, and some jobs

:14:29.:14:33.

for our young people. Marina Bell, what is the answer? I think the

:14:33.:14:37.

important thing for credibility is that fiscal consolidation,

:14:37.:14:40.

austerity happens, with regard to what is going on in the economy. So

:14:40.:14:44.

that over the cycle, and when the economy recovers, plans are in

:14:44.:14:50.

place to bring the cyclical adjusted current budget deficit

:14:50.:14:55.

back into balance. That is a plan we have, but with a rolling five-

:14:55.:14:59.

year horizon. It should be contingent on where the economy is,

:14:59.:15:04.

and the target to stablise debt as a percentage of GDP, should also be

:15:04.:15:08.

subject to the economy getting back to trend. We shouldn't try to

:15:08.:15:13.

achieve these targets in too fast a time frame. You would agree that we

:15:13.:15:19.

should slow down? Absolutely. Bluntly France O'Grady, you have to

:15:19.:15:27.

the -- bluntly Frances O'Grady you have the minister here what do you

:15:27.:15:32.

want? We want a policy, led by the Prime Minister, that you need to

:15:32.:15:36.

re-think austerity parties, making ordinary working-class families

:15:36.:15:40.

poorer is not -- working families poorer is not going to make the

:15:40.:15:43.

country grow. We need demand back into the economy, and the best way

:15:43.:15:45.

to do that, there is lots of evidence on this, is to put money

:15:45.:15:50.

in the pockets of working people and the poor, because they spent it

:15:50.:15:54.

in the local economy. Where as the rich, tend to save or shove it off

:15:55.:16:00.

to tax havens. So you need to start being fair, you need to start

:16:00.:16:05.

investing for the future, we need to get our infrastructure moving.

:16:05.:16:10.

You need to get some real reform of the banking system, because they

:16:10.:16:14.

put us into this mess, they need to be reformed in order for us to get

:16:14.:16:17.

out of it. Is what you are hearing, and we will put this to the

:16:17.:16:22.

minister in a second, realistic, and what do you expect Mark Kearney

:16:22.:16:26.

to do when he comes in, should the Bank of England have more powers

:16:26.:16:32.

now? The bank has been given an incredible amount of power.

:16:32.:16:35.

terms of bank regulation, for example, do you think they will

:16:35.:16:40.

take that bull bit horns? I would hope that in terms of bank

:16:40.:16:45.

regulation they will go a little bit easier in the prudent policies

:16:45.:16:48.

of raising capital ratios. I think the irony of the situation we are

:16:48.:16:56.

in, is policies that would be prudent in other times likely

:16:56.:16:59.

borrowing, balanced current account budget, high capital ratios, are

:16:59.:17:03.

not the sort of things you should be putting in place in the teeth of

:17:03.:17:08.

a recession. So I hope that there will be a slowdown, perhaps, in

:17:08.:17:14.

pushing up the capital ratios. I would hope that the Government and

:17:14.:17:21.

the banks stick with targeting inflation. Mormonry, as we heard in

:17:21.:17:26.

the film, more aggressive -- more monetary policy, as we heard in the

:17:26.:17:32.

film, more aggressive monetary policy may be required. There are

:17:32.:17:35.

signs in the last few months that the healthy levels might be

:17:35.:17:39.

reversing. Let's put some of the blunt things

:17:39.:17:43.

people are talking about now, a cut in VAT, a cut in national insurance

:17:43.:17:47.

contributions, are these the things that we are going to see in the

:17:47.:17:51.

March budget, should we? Not if we can't afford them. That is the

:17:51.:17:54.

challenge. It is all very well, and I heard Ed Balls today saying we

:17:54.:17:59.

should do all this, we should cut these taxes and spend more into

:17:59.:18:05.

this area. What that would result in is more borrowing, I'm afraid

:18:05.:18:08.

that is...You Are already spending more on the welfare budget because

:18:08.:18:12.

more people are out of work and suffering? For the reasons I

:18:12.:18:15.

outlined earlier, these are difficult times for the economy,

:18:15.:18:20.

there is that flexibility within our current plans, that may happen.

:18:21.:18:26.

The idea of a stimulus, that we choose to enter into, is just more

:18:26.:18:29.

borrowing, and I'm afraid, the answer that we get from Labour all

:18:29.:18:33.

the time is borrow more. That's always their answer, that is what

:18:33.:18:38.

they do in Government as well. don't want to taper cuts at this

:18:38.:18:43.

point? The difficulty if we try to go for revering things, if we try

:18:43.:18:47.

to go for -- reversing things, if we try to go for big tax cuts we

:18:47.:18:56.

can't fund from elsewhere, we can't and we find interest rates going up

:18:56.:18:59.

and you take more money out of the economy. This is full steam ahead,

:18:59.:19:04.

Plan A, nothing has changed as of today? The strategy of getting the

:19:04.:19:06.

public finances under control, while at the same time taking some

:19:06.:19:09.

of the difficult decisions to ensure the UK can grow is the right

:19:09.:19:12.

approach, it is not going to always be popular, there will be

:19:12.:19:16.

resistance to it, and it's not easy when the world economy is going

:19:16.:19:19.

through some of the challenges it is at the moment. But it is the

:19:19.:19:23.

right approach for the long-term for this country.

:19:23.:19:26.

Thank you. A British surveillance plane has

:19:26.:19:29.

taken off to support French military prayings against shraelist

:19:29.:19:35.

rebels in Mali, earlier today -- Islamist rebels in Mali, earlier

:19:35.:19:41.

today planes bombed positions, and a town has been retaken. We spent

:19:41.:19:48.

the day in Bamako, I I asked what the mood was like there? The first

:19:48.:19:54.

thing that strikes you here is the sheer sense of relief that everyone

:19:54.:19:59.

I have spoken to feels. They have been saved by the French from all

:19:59.:20:03.

the problems they foresaw, if the Islamists had come here. This is a

:20:03.:20:07.

very poor country, of course, but a country that is very rich in

:20:07.:20:12.

culture, with a fairly easy going form of Islam, very famous for its

:20:12.:20:16.

music and other forms of culture. People, of course, heard all the

:20:16.:20:21.

news that was happening in the rebel-controlled north, all the

:20:22.:20:26.

punishments, for smoking, the punishments for women who were

:20:26.:20:29.

unveiled, and the amputations for theft, they were terrified that

:20:29.:20:33.

would come here. The problem now is the sheer weight of expectations

:20:33.:20:38.

that are being put on the French. People not only expect the French

:20:38.:20:40.

effectively to liberate the whole country from the Islamists, but

:20:40.:20:45.

they also want the French, their former colonial masters, who

:20:45.:20:49.

achieve some kind of political fix here, to reintroduce democracy, and

:20:49.:20:55.

even a better form of democracy than people had before the French

:20:55.:20:59.

left. Whether the French really have the appetite to sort all that

:20:59.:21:02.

out is very much open to question. What does that mean for the

:21:02.:21:08.

operation, how long do the French have to be there? Well, the

:21:08.:21:13.

operation to drive the Islamists back is proceeding fairly steadily.

:21:13.:21:19.

At first, with French air strikes, then French Special Forces, and

:21:19.:21:24.

then the malian army behind, that but the really big fight, foit in

:21:24.:21:32.

the desert, the fight for the two many Islamist-controlled towns,

:21:32.:21:37.

Timbuktu we don't know where that will go. We don't know whether or

:21:37.:21:43.

not French public opinion will change. We have heard of reprisal

:21:43.:21:50.

killings by the Mali army. That is France's main ally. What is

:21:50.:21:54.

supposed to happen is that behind the French are supposed to come

:21:54.:22:00.

these contingents of west African forces from Nigeria, Togo, Ivory

:22:00.:22:07.

Coast and so on. But even a special adviser to the mally President said

:22:07.:22:11.

to me today that he -- Mali President said to me today he

:22:11.:22:17.

wasn't sure if these forces could cope in unfamiliar terrain. It was

:22:17.:22:21.

kite-flying under the Taliban, ballroom dancing under Mao, history

:22:21.:22:26.

under Pol Pot, the first impulse of a dictator is to control the people

:22:26.:22:32.

under the freedom it bans. If the Islamists of west Africa get their

:22:32.:22:37.

way, the next addition to that will be music in Mali. Enter the mally

:22:38.:22:43.

musician who has gathered 40 musicians to sing in their country

:22:43.:22:48.

and against the imposition of Sharia Law. Nowhere does music have

:22:48.:22:52.

political importance than in the vast desert state of Mali. Now in

:22:52.:22:55.

exile in southern France, she talked to Steve Smith.

:22:55.:23:03.

At a sound check for a concert near Marseille tonight, it is rising

:23:03.:23:07.

star Fatoumata Diawara. But her thoughts are 2,000 miles away, with

:23:07.:23:15.

the conflict in Mali? I decided to go in Mali in the summer to do the

:23:15.:23:18.

holy day. People said don't stay in Mali, you have to go back because

:23:18.:23:26.

you are in danger in Mali now. I said, OK, so it is time to do

:23:26.:23:36.
:23:36.:23:49.

Can you tell me about this song you have recorded with the other

:23:49.:23:59.
:23:59.:24:02.

musicians from Mali? Every artist expresses themselves about how they

:24:02.:24:12.
:24:12.:24:12.

are feeling, the first one is peace, the second one it is about uniting,

:24:12.:24:17.

between our brothers from the north and the people from the south. As

:24:17.:24:26.

musicians we needed to express that, talk about reality, be a voice of

:24:26.:24:30.

those people. Music is very important, more important than

:24:30.:24:37.

politics. Also we have a very bad situation, very bad politics kal

:24:37.:24:40.

situation now. And the people really -- political situation now,

:24:40.:24:49.

the people really need some hope. We know many shocking things are

:24:49.:24:52.

happening in Mali at the moment, there is mistreatment of musicians,

:24:52.:24:56.

we have heard of instruments being confiscated, recording equipment

:24:56.:25:06.

smashed? It is also one of our fights to protect our music. In the

:25:06.:25:13.

last few minutes months music is in danger in mal-- the last few months,

:25:13.:25:18.

music is in danger in Mali, the Islamists want to stop music.

:25:18.:25:23.

what we understand, some of the people in the north, the Islamists,

:25:23.:25:30.

regard music as wrong and yet it is a vital part of your country's

:25:30.:25:35.

tradition, isn't it? I don't know which kind of music they want. They

:25:35.:25:42.

want us to sing only about God. So we can't do that. We can't do that.

:25:42.:25:50.

We needed to express ourselves, we need to express the many problems

:25:50.:25:55.

of Mali by music. We do everything by this. Politics, everything.

:25:55.:26:00.

condition of women, you sing about that? Emancipations, you know.

:26:00.:26:05.

That's the way that I decided to talk to my generation, by music. I

:26:05.:26:10.

have this kind of writing, very new for my country, and the people are

:26:10.:26:15.

very receptive of that, they love that. My generation like my kind of

:26:15.:26:19.

writing, because it is more direct. If I stopped that, what are we

:26:19.:26:25.

gonna do, what will we be? We will lose everything. Our soul, our

:26:25.:26:35.

culture, our ancestoral gifts. Our spiritual things, the spirit of

:26:35.:26:45.
:26:45.:26:52.

Mali is music. You were in the country recently,

:26:52.:26:56.

what is happening with your family, and your friends, how are they

:26:56.:27:00.

while this is going on? We don't know what is going to happen

:27:00.:27:04.

tomorrow. Politic cleel we don't have anybody who can -- politically

:27:04.:27:11.

we don't have anybody who can really help us. That is the second

:27:11.:27:18.

problem, very important now. To really make us a very sad. I have

:27:18.:27:25.

many friends who are artists, who play on the records, very great

:27:25.:27:30.

artists in Mali, nobody has gigs now. We can't play. You can't play

:27:30.:27:39.

at home? No. Because it is too dangerous? It is very dangerous. We

:27:39.:27:45.

can't have a kamikaze to come and explode everything. We are very

:27:45.:27:52.

worried. Every artist is really happy to do this project, and they

:27:52.:28:02.
:28:02.:28:06.

thing, I hope, so it will bring a big hope for the mally people.

:28:06.:28:11.

Any friends in Europe are good right now, the German newspaper has

:28:11.:28:15.

run an article begging us to stay in the EU. Listing ten reasons why

:28:15.:28:22.

Europe needs us. Before we go we offer our own repost, a German

:28:22.:28:26.

stand-up median gives us a list of what he will miss if we left the

:28:26.:28:30.

European Union. What does Britain do best, celebrating incompetence,

:28:30.:28:36.

and a continent of self-deprecation, the idea you can laugh off failure.

:28:36.:28:39.

It doesn't matter how bad you mess up in your line of work, as long as

:28:39.:28:48.

you can tell the tale of your underachievement in a funny way.

:28:48.:28:51.

Britain is all about a great sense of humour, and nostalgia, before I

:28:51.:28:56.

moved to Britain, I didn't know how to goose step. If it wasn't for the

:28:56.:29:00.

BBC I still wouldn't know how to. The Dunkirk spirit, it is very

:29:00.:29:05.

British, but probably not a very good example, if that was all about

:29:05.:29:10.

Britain getting out of Europe. Then sectarianism, I love sectarianism,

:29:10.:29:14.

but in Scotland it's brilliant sectarianism, it makes for such

:29:14.:29:22.

great football. And in a way I understand it is a blight on almost

:29:23.:29:30.

every other aspect of life, those 90 minutes on a Saturday afternoon

:29:30.:29:35.

it is worth it. Alcohol, at home I'm an alcoholic, here I'm joly.

:29:36.:29:40.

Free schools, even if they open with a school with the best of

:29:40.:29:44.

intention, Ofsted will make them jump through so answer hoops they

:29:44.:29:47.

will be mental by the end of it T But it doesn't matter, what this

:29:47.:29:51.

country is all about is tolerance. Britain, very good to us foreigners,

:29:51.:29:58.

you hole date us. You don't welcome us, you don't welcome us, but you

:29:58.:30:03.

tolerate us, that is a great British virttu. There is something

:30:03.:30:07.

you really dislike, but you can't be bothered to do anything about it,

:30:07.:30:12.

at home we call that lazy cynicism, here it is tolerance. The biggest

:30:12.:30:15.

problem if Britain leaves the European Union, people in Berlin

:30:15.:30:18.

will have to pay for more their After Eights, so, please, stay.

:30:18.:30:25.

Please. There you go, you heard it from

:30:25.:30:28.

here first. Tonight on Review, Sarah Churchwell,

:30:28.:30:34.

James Fox and Lionel Shriver join me to talk about four giants,

:30:34.:30:40.

Abraham Lincoln in the hands of Spielberg, the real Orwell season,

:30:40.:30:44.

and Turn of the Screw done by Hammer Theatre of Horror, and all

:30:44.:30:49.