07/03/2013 Newsnight

More than a third of the tax you More than a third of the tax you

More than a third of the tax you pay gets spent on welfare. The

pay gets spent on welfare. The pay gets spent on welfare. The

polls suggest you don't like that polls suggest you don't like that

polls suggest you don't like that one little bit. Ministers aren't

one little bit. Ministers aren't one little bit. Ministers aren't

one little bit. Ministers aren't the only ones who want people on

the only ones who want people on the only ones who want people on

the only ones who want people on benefits to stand on their own two

benefits to stand on their own two benefits to stand on their own two

feet. In this London Borough, they feet. In this London Borough, they

feet. In this London Borough, they feet. In this London Borough, they

will impose the cap on benefits on will impose the cap on benefits on

will impose the cap on benefits on will impose the cap on benefits on

families in a few week, whatever it families in a few week, whatever it

families in a few week, whatever it families in a few week, whatever it

takes. They say if I don't get a takes. They say if I don't get a

takes. They say if I don't get a takes. They say if I don't get a

job up to that time, they say they job up to that time, they say they

job up to that time, they say they job up to that time, they say they

will move me into a cheap area like will move me into a cheap area like

will move me into a cheap area like Birmingham. What's your view of

Birmingham. What's your view of that? I'm not going.

that? I'm not going. that? I'm not going.

This northern community charity is This northern community charity is

This northern community charity is filling the gap. And also finding

filling the gap. And also finding filling the gap. And also finding

attitudes are changing. If you have attitudes are changing. If you have

attitudes are changing. If you have attitudes are changing. If you have

been brought up in a workless house, been brought up in a workless house,

been brought up in a workless house, your options to then go into

your options to then go into your options to then go into

employment, especially in an area employment, especially in an area

employment, especially in an area like Accrington are very limited.

like Accrington are very limited. like Accrington are very limited.

The Employment Minister is here. The Employment Minister is here.

The Employment Minister is here. Why have our attitudes to welfare

Why have our attitudes to welfare Why have our attitudes to welfare

Why have our attitudes to welfare changed, and are there more cuts to

come? come?

come? come?

# You say you don't believe in signs

signs # From up above

# From up above # From up above

We have been talking to Bonnie We have been talking to Bonnie

We have been talking to Bonnie Tyler, the Welch-born singer who

Tyler, the Welch-born singer who Tyler, the Welch-born singer who

will carry Britain's hopes into Eurovision.

If

If you

If you try

If you try to

If you try to squeeze

If you try to squeeze Government

If you try to squeeze Government spending,

spending, the

If you try to squeeze Government spending, the Welfare

spending, the Welfare Bill

If you try to squeeze Government spending, the Welfare Bill is

spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty

pretty hard

spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty hard to

pretty hard to overlook.

spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty hard to overlook. Welfare

pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is

pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost

almost a

pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost a third

almost a third of

pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost a third of all

almost a third of all Government

almost a third of all Government spending,

spending, more

almost a third of all Government spending, more than

spending, more than �200

almost a third of all Government spending, more than �200 billion

spending, more than �200 billion a

spending, more than �200 billion a year.

year. That

spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is

year. That is twice

spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is twice what

year. That is twice what we

spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is twice what we spend

year. That is twice what we spend on

on the

year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS,

on the NHS, and

year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS, and six-times

on the NHS, and six-times what

year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS, and six-times what the

on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry

Ministry of

on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry of Defence

Ministry of Defence gets.

on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry of Defence gets. Even

Ministry of Defence gets. Even before

before the

Ministry of Defence gets. Even before the Chancellor

before the Chancellor had

Ministry of Defence gets. Even before the Chancellor had written

before the Chancellor had written his

his first

before the Chancellor had written his first budget,

his first budget, the

before the Chancellor had written his first budget, the coalition

his first budget, the coalition had

his first budget, the coalition had declared

declared a

his first budget, the coalition had declared a big

declared a big chunk

his first budget, the coalition had declared a big chunk of

declared a big chunk of that

his first budget, the coalition had declared a big chunk of that off

declared a big chunk of that off limits.

limits. Benefits

declared a big chunk of that off limits. Benefits solely

limits. Benefits solely for

declared a big chunk of that off limits. Benefits solely for the

limits. Benefits solely for the elderly,

elderly, which

limits. Benefits solely for the elderly, which accounts

elderly, which accounts for

limits. Benefits solely for the elderly, which accounts for two

elderly, which accounts for two fifths

fifths of

elderly, which accounts for two fifths of the

fifths of the total.

elderly, which accounts for two fifths of the total. Universal

fifths of the total. Universal benefits

benefits like

fifths of the total. Universal benefits like the

benefits like the Winter

fifths of the total. Universal benefits like the Winter Fuel

benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance

Allowance is

benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance is safe.

Allowance is safe. And

benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance is safe. And the

Allowance is safe. And the pensions

Allowance is safe. And the pensions going

going up

Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at

going up at least

Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at least as

going up at least as fast

Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at least as fast as

going up at least as fast as average

average earnings

going up at least as fast as average earnings and

average earnings and pensions.

going up at least as fast as average earnings and pensions. What

average earnings and pensions. What is

is less,

average earnings and pensions. What is less, for

is less, for benefits

average earnings and pensions. What is less, for benefits going

is less, for benefits going to

is less, for benefits going to people

people below

is less, for benefits going to people below pension

people below pension age,

is less, for benefits going to people below pension age, you

people below pension age, you can

people below pension age, you can see

see why

people below pension age, you can see why the

see why the Government

people below pension age, you can see why the Government is

see why the Government is so

see why the Government is so focused

focused on

see why the Government is so focused on housing

focused on housing benefit.

see why the Government is so focused on housing benefit. In

focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12,

2011/12, it

focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12, it was

2011/12, it was the

focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12, it was the single

2011/12, it was the single most

2011/12, it was the single most important

important item

2011/12, it was the single most important item on

important item on the

2011/12, it was the single most important item on the benefit

important item on the benefit bill,

important item on the benefit bill, just

just ahead

important item on the benefit bill, just ahead of

just ahead of Child

important item on the benefit bill, just ahead of Child Tax

just ahead of Child Tax Credit.

just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most

Most benefits

just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will

Most benefits will rise

just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will rise by

Most benefits will rise by only

just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will rise by only 1%

Most benefits will rise by only 1% a

a year

Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over

a year over the

Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over the next

a year over the next three

Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over the next three years,

a year over the next three years, that

that is

a year over the next three years, that is slower

that is slower than

a year over the next three years, that is slower than inflation.

that is slower than inflation. In

that is slower than inflation. In four

four years

that is slower than inflation. In four years time,

four years time, nearly

that is slower than inflation. In four years time, nearly every

four years time, nearly every one

four years time, nearly every one of

of those

four years time, nearly every one of those been

of those been fits

four years time, nearly every one of those been fits will

of those been fits will look

four years time, nearly every one of those been fits will look very

of those been fits will look very different.

different. In

of those been fits will look very different. In fact,

different. In fact, six

of those been fits will look very different. In fact, six of

different. In fact, six of them,

of those been fits will look very different. In fact, six of them, --

different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit

benefit also

different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit also look

benefit also look very

different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit also look very different.

benefit also look very different. In

In fact

benefit also look very different. In fact six

In fact six of

benefit also look very different. In fact six of them

In fact six of them won't

benefit also look very different. In fact six of them won't exist,

In fact six of them won't exist, having

having been

In fact six of them won't exist, having been replaced

having been replaced by

In fact six of them won't exist, having been replaced by Universal

having been replaced by Universal Credit.

Credit. That

having been replaced by Universal Credit. That comes

Credit. That comes in

having been replaced by Universal Credit. That comes in later

Credit. That comes in later this

Credit. That comes in later this year.

year. You

Credit. That comes in later this year. You take

year. You take all

Credit. That comes in later this year. You take all of

year. You take all of these

Credit. That comes in later this year. You take all of these changes

year. You take all of these changes together,

together, you

year. You take all of these changes together, you have

together, you have the

year. You take all of these changes together, you have the most

together, you have the most significant

significant reform

together, you have the most significant reform of

significant reform of the

together, you have the most significant reform of the welfare

significant reform of the welfare system

system since

significant reform of the welfare system since 1948.

system since 1948. Ministers

significant reform of the welfare system since 1948. Ministers would

system since 1948. Ministers would say

say it

system since 1948. Ministers would say it is

say it is not

system since 1948. Ministers would say it is not only

say it is not only being

system since 1948. Ministers would say it is not only being driven

say it is not only being driven by

say it is not only being driven by that

that need

say it is not only being driven by that need to

that need to save

say it is not only being driven by that need to save money.

that need to save money. They

They are

that need to save money. They are also

They are also responding

that need to save money. They are also responding to

They are also responding to the

They are also responding to the fact

fact that

They are also responding to the fact that attitudes

fact that attitudes towards

They are also responding to the fact that attitudes towards welfare

fact that attitudes towards welfare and

and the

fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people

and the people who

fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people who depend

and the people who depend on

fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people who depend on it

and the people who depend on it seem

seem to

and the people who depend on it seem to have

seem to have hardened.

and the people who depend on it seem to have hardened. Ministers

seem to have hardened. Ministers talk

talk about

seem to have hardened. Ministers talk about rewarding

talk about rewarding strivers,

seem to have hardened. Ministers talk about rewarding strivers, and

talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging

discouraging skivers,

talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging skivers, it

discouraging skivers, it strike

talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging skivers, it strike as

discouraging skivers, it strike as chord.

chord. Later

discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we

chord. Later we will

discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we will be

chord. Later we will be --

discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we will be -- it

chord. Later we will be -- it strikes

strikes a

chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord.

strikes a chord. Later

chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord. Later we

strikes a chord. Later we will

chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord. Later we will be

strikes a chord. Later we will be discussing

discussing whether

strikes a chord. Later we will be discussing whether the

discussing whether the Government's

discussing whether the Government's measures

measures are

discussing whether the Government's measures are a

measures are a coherent

discussing whether the Government's measures are a coherent response

measures are a coherent response to

measures are a coherent response to this.

this. We

measures are a coherent response to this. We have

this. We have been

measures are a coherent response to this. We have been to

this. We have been to Accrington

measures are a coherent response to this. We have been to Accrington to

this. We have been to Accrington to test

test attitudes.

test attitudes. P

P and

test attitudes. P and down

P and down this

test attitudes. P and down this street,

P and down this street, when

test attitudes. P and down this street, when one

P and down this street, when one --

P and down this street, when one -- up

up and

P and down this street, when one -- up and down

up and down this

P and down this street, when one -- up and down this street,

up and down this street, when

P and down this street, when one -- up and down this street, when one

up and down this street, when one person

person leaves

up and down this street, when one person leaves for

person leaves for work,

up and down this street, when one person leaves for work, they

person leaves for work, they see

person leaves for work, they see the

the curtains

person leaves for work, they see the curtains drawn,

the curtains drawn, they

person leaves for work, they see the curtains drawn, they think

the curtains drawn, they think they

the curtains drawn, they think they are

are off

the curtains drawn, they think they are off to

are off to make

the curtains drawn, they think they are off to make a

are off to make a living

the curtains drawn, they think they are off to make a living and

are off to make a living and behind

are off to make a living and behind the

the curtains

are off to make a living and behind the curtains someone

the curtains someone is

are off to make a living and behind the curtains someone is making

the curtains someone is making a

the curtains someone is making a living

living off

the curtains someone is making a living off them.

living off them. It

the curtains someone is making a living off them. It is

living off them. It is an

the curtains someone is making a living off them. It is an image

living off them. It is an image George

George Osborne

living off them. It is an image George Osborne likes

George Osborne likes to

living off them. It is an image George Osborne likes to paint.

George Osborne likes to paint. Whenever

Whenever pollsters

George Osborne likes to paint. Whenever pollsters test

Whenever pollsters test public

Whenever pollsters test public attitudes

attitudes to

Whenever pollsters test public attitudes to welfare

attitudes to welfare cuts,

Whenever pollsters test public attitudes to welfare cuts, support

attitudes to welfare cuts, support for

for them

attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is

for them is usually

attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is usually sky

for them is usually sky high.

attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is usually sky high. That

for them is usually sky high. That is

is why

for them is usually sky high. That is why the

is why the Chancellor

for them is usually sky high. That is why the Chancellor mentions

is why the Chancellor mentions these

these drawn

is why the Chancellor mentions these drawn curtains.

these drawn curtains. He's

is why the Chancellor mentions these drawn curtains. He's trying

these drawn curtains. He's trying to

to reach

these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out

to reach out to

these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out to many

to reach out to many members

these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out to many members of

to reach out to many members of the

to reach out to many members of the public.

public. Just

to reach out to many members of the public. Just as

public. Just as the

to reach out to many members of the public. Just as the reasons

public. Just as the reasons for

to reach out to many members of the public. Just as the reasons for a

public. Just as the reasons for a drawn

drawn curtain

public. Just as the reasons for a drawn curtain could

drawn curtain could be

public. Just as the reasons for a drawn curtain could be numerous,

drawn curtain could be numerous, public

public attitudes

drawn curtain could be numerous, public attitudes towards

public attitudes towards welfare

public attitudes towards welfare are

are very

public attitudes towards welfare are very complex.

are very complex. The

public attitudes towards welfare are very complex. The pollster

are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori

Ipsos-Mori gives

are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori gives one

Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot

are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot of

Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot of public

public opinion..

A

A snapshot

A snapshot can

A snapshot can be misleading, what A snapshot can be misleading, what

Many more people agreed than Many more people agreed than

Many more people agreed than disagreed, that isn't the case.

disagreed, that isn't the case. disagreed, that isn't the case.

disagreed, that isn't the case. will give a food parcel a couple of

will give a food parcel a couple of will give a food parcel a couple of

will give a food parcel a couple of days before you get paid. I can do

days before you get paid. I can do days before you get paid. I can do

bun Friday until you get your bun Friday until you get your

bun Friday until you get your benefits. This centre steps in

benefits. This centre steps in benefits. This centre steps in

where the state retreats. It has where the state retreats. It has

where the state retreats. It has done more not less since welfare

done more not less since welfare done more not less since welfare

cuts have bitten. Years ago the cuts have bitten. Years ago the

cuts have bitten. Years ago the people of Accrington would have

people of Accrington would have people of Accrington would have

people of Accrington would have been busy weaving on one of the

been busy weaving on one of the been busy weaving on one of the

most critical inventions of the most critical inventions of the

Industrial Revolution, the spinning Industrial Revolution, the spinning

Industrial Revolution, the spinning Jenny. Now poverty levels are the

Jenny. Now poverty levels are the Jenny. Now poverty levels are the

highest in the country. The town highest in the country. The town

highest in the country. The town has its own system of support.

has its own system of support. has its own system of support.

has its own system of support. Running the centre, Lucy is at the

Running the centre, Lucy is at the interface of those receiving

interface of those receiving interface of those receiving

benefits and those who might be benefits and those who might be

more sceptical. Local communities more sceptical. Local communities

are incredibly generous. When are incredibly generous. When

are incredibly generous. When are incredibly generous. When

people come in and meet some of the people come in and meet some of the

people come in and meet some of the people come in and meet some of the

people who are going to get the people who are going to get the

people who are going to get the help that they have brought, I

help that they have brought, I help that they have brought, I

think that does help to change think that does help to change

think that does help to change people as opinions. I think you

people as opinions. I think you people as opinions. I think you

realise that people's options are realise that people's options are

realise that people's options are realise that people's options are

not, they are very Ayalim ited. If not, they are very Ayalim ited. If

not, they are very Ayalim ited. If not, they are very Ayalim ited. If

you have been brought up in a work you have been brought up in a work

you have been brought up in a work you have been brought up in a work

-- They are very limited. If you -- They are very limited. If you

-- They are very limited. If you have been brought up in the

have been brought up in the have been brought up in the

have been brought up in the workless house, or been in the care

workless house, or been in the care workless house, or been in the care

system, your options to then go system, your options to then go

system, your options to then go into employment, especially in an

into employment, especially in an into employment, especially in an

area like Accrington are very area like Accrington are very

limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey

limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey

shows 92% of people value a welfare shows 92% of people value a welfare

shows 92% of people value a welfare shows 92% of people value a welfare

state to support those in need. The state to support those in need. The

state to support those in need. The same pollster s show that in

same pollster s show that in same pollster s show that in

201019% of people were worried 201019% of people were worried

201019% of people were worried Government would do too little to

Government would do too little to Government would do too little to

Government would do too little to help people. And it had had risen

help people. And it had had risen help people. And it had had risen

help people. And it had had risen to a third of respondants. John is

to a third of respondants. John is to a third of respondants. John is

to a third of respondants. John is 56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia

56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia 56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia

Plath is his absolute favourite. He Plath is his absolute favourite. He

Plath is his absolute favourite. He Plath is his absolute favourite. He

has never had a job. He did have has never had a job. He did have

has never had a job. He did have one when he first left university.

one when he first left university. one when he first left university.

one when he first left university. He was asked to make one phone call,

He was asked to make one phone call, He was asked to make one phone call,

He was asked to make one phone call, it took him three days to make it.

it took him three days to make it. it took him three days to make it.

it took him three days to make it. John never returned to work, he was

John never returned to work, he was diagnosed with anxiety and

diagnosed with anxiety and eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm

eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm

eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm is a volunteer buddy to John. You

is a volunteer buddy to John. You is a volunteer buddy to John. You

build your life up on these build your life up on these

build your life up on these benefits doing certain things, your

benefits doing certain things, your benefits doing certain things, your

bills and things like that, and bills and things like that, and

bills and things like that, and bills and things like that, and

then if they remove or change that then if they remove or change that

then if they remove or change that benefit then all that structure is

benefit then all that structure is benefit then all that structure is

gone. People like me routine and gone. People like me routine and

gone. People like me routine and such are very important. It is

such are very important. It is such are very important. It is

something that you have been something that you have been

something that you have been something that you have been

worried about for a while. You can worried about for a while. You can

worried about for a while. You can worried about for a while. You can

see a broken leg and motor neurone see a broken leg and motor neurone

see a broken leg and motor neurone disease, but not a mental illness.

disease, but not a mental illness. disease, but not a mental illness.

A mental illness is a progressive A mental illness is a progressive

A mental illness is a progressive thing, and a different thing every

thing, and a different thing every thing, and a different thing every

thing, and a different thing every day. How on earth can anybody make

day. How on earth can anybody make day. How on earth can anybody make

an assessment within 30-minutes, on an assessment within 30-minutes, on

one particular day. one particular day.

one particular day. one particular day.

But even in the face of stories But even in the face of stories

But even in the face of stories But even in the face of stories

such as John's, as a nation we are such as John's, as a nation we are

such as John's, as a nation we are such as John's, as a nation we are

very hard. And we have got harder. very hard. And we have got harder.

very hard. And we have got harder. very hard. And we have got harder.

It is a very profound set of trends It is a very profound set of trends

It is a very profound set of trends It is a very profound set of trends

we are seeing in terms of hardening we are seeing in terms of hardening

attitudes towards welfare and attitudes towards welfare and

attitudes towards welfare and welfare benefits. For example many

welfare benefits. For example many welfare benefits. For example many

more people believe, compared with more people believe, compared with

more people believe, compared with more people believe, compared with

10 or 20 years ago that benefits 10 or 20 years ago that benefits

10 or 20 years ago that benefits are too high, and discourage people

are too high, and discourage people are too high, and discourage people

from finding work. What is from finding work. What is

from finding work. What is interesting is we are certainly not

interesting is we are certainly not interesting is we are certainly not

seeing a softening of attitudes in seeing a softening of attitudes in

seeing a softening of attitudes in the recent recession. In previous

the recent recession. In previous the recent recession. In previous

recessions we have very much seen recessions we have very much seen

the softening of attitudes. the softening of attitudes.

the softening of attitudes. And there's been this hardening,

And there's been this hardening, And there's been this hardening,

despite more and more people having despite more and more people having

despite more and more people having been brought into the welfare state

been brought into the welfare state been brought into the welfare state

through the expansion of tax through the expansion of tax

through the expansion of tax credits, and so more and more

credits, and so more and more credits, and so more and more

credits, and so more and more people are set to lose when the

cuts bite. cuts bite.

cuts bite. When interviewing 150 families, one

When interviewing 150 families, one sociologist found a peculiar

sociologist found a peculiar sociologist found a peculiar

phenomenon. I was working for phenomenon. I was working for

phenomenon. I was working for Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to

Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to

see which tenants would be affected see which tenants would be affected

see which tenants would be affected by welfare reform, and who was

by welfare reform, and who was by welfare reform, and who was

likely to default on their rent likely to default on their rent

likely to default on their rent payments. In the course of the

payments. In the course of the payments. In the course of the

study we found out what other study we found out what other

study we found out what other benefits they were on, and what

benefits they were on, and what benefits they were on, and what

their awareness was of welfare their awareness was of welfare

their awareness was of welfare reform. What really surprised me

reform. What really surprised me reform. What really surprised me

reform. What really surprised me was the fact that lots of people

was the fact that lots of people was the fact that lots of people

who were on multiple benefits, they who were on multiple benefits, they

were receiving housing benefit, were receiving housing benefit,

were receiving housing benefit, council tax benefit, various things,

council tax benefit, various things, resented other people receiving

resented other people receiving resented other people receiving

benefits. They thought that only benefits. They thought that only

benefits. They thought that only they should get benefits! When the

they should get benefits! When the they should get benefits! When the

camp chairman recently produced a camp chairman recently produced a

camp chairman recently produced a poster, lambasting those out of

poster, lambasting those out of poster, lambasting those out of

work as "slobs", he was roundly work as "slobs", he was roundly

work as "slobs", he was roundly criticised behind the scenes by

criticised behind the scenes by Conservative colleagues, and was

Conservative colleagues, and was Conservative colleagues, and was

thought to have admitted he thought to have admitted he

thought to have admitted he probably went too far. The

probably went too far. The Conservatives think they have

Conservatives think they have Conservatives think they have

public opinion on their side when public opinion on their side when

public opinion on their side when public opinion on their side when

they are cutting benefits out of a they are cutting benefits out of a

they are cutting benefits out of a sense of duety. But that public

sense of duety. But that public sense of duety. But that public

opinion can -- duty. But that opinion can -- duty. But that

opinion can -- duty. But that public opinion can flip very

public opinion can flip very public opinion can flip very

public opinion can flip very quickly if they get any sign of

quickly if they get any sign of quickly if they get any sign of

relish. Linda is from Hind Homes, relish. Linda is from Hind Homes,

relish. Linda is from Hind Homes, relish. Linda is from Hind Homes,

and has come to meet one of the and has come to meet one of the

and has come to meet one of the 3,000 tenants, some of whom will

3,000 tenants, some of whom will 3,000 tenants, some of whom will

lose out with the benefit changes. lose out with the benefit changes.

lose out with the benefit changes. The Government has promised a

The Government has promised a The Government has promised a

hardship fund to help these people. hardship fund to help these people.

hardship fund to help these people. hardship fund to help these people.

We have heard you will be charged We have heard you will be charged

We have heard you will be charged �12 for the extra bedroom. Linda

�12 for the extra bedroom. Linda �12 for the extra bedroom. Linda

knows public opinion is finely knows public opinion is finely

knows public opinion is finely balanced for many reasons. Many

balanced for many reasons. Many balanced for many reasons. Many

recipients of benefits are in work recipients of benefits are in work

recipients of benefits are in work recipients of benefits are in work

as well as being out of work. as well as being out of work.

as well as being out of work. as well as being out of work.

deal with a lot of people who in deal with a lot of people who in

deal with a lot of people who in deal with a lot of people who in

this area, due to the decline in this area, due to the decline in

the manufacturing industry, there the manufacturing industry, there

the manufacturing industry, there the manufacturing industry, there

is a lot of people working in the is a lot of people working in the

is a lot of people working in the retail industry. It is quite low

retail industry. It is quite low retail industry. It is quite low

incomes, minimum wage. They need incomes, minimum wage. They need

incomes, minimum wage. They need help with their rent, they are

help with their rent, they are help with their rent, they are

still able to claim housing benefit. still able to claim housing benefit.

still able to claim housing benefit. still able to claim housing benefit.

The bedroom tax will be 14% of the The bedroom tax will be 14% of the

The bedroom tax will be 14% of the The bedroom tax will be 14% of the

rent, not how much benefit they get. rent, not how much benefit they get.

rent, not how much benefit they get. rent, not how much benefit they get.

In some cases they will lose all In some cases they will lose all

In some cases they will lose all their housing benefit and have to

their housing benefit and have to their housing benefit and have to

their housing benefit and have to meet all the rent. Which on a low

meet all the rent. Which on a low meet all the rent. Which on a low

income, they are really going to income, they are really going to

income, they are really going to struggle to make ends meet.

struggle to make ends meet. struggle to make ends meet.

Back at the centre, some solutions Back at the centre, some solutions

Back at the centre, some solutions become discernable. John was in

become discernable. John was in become discernable. John was in

become discernable. John was in work all his adult life, but a year

work all his adult life, but a year work all his adult life, but a year

work all his adult life, but a year ago he lost his job, he hasn't had

ago he lost his job, he hasn't had ago he lost his job, he hasn't had

ago he lost his job, he hasn't had one since. He would like welfare to

one since. He would like welfare to one since. He would like welfare to

one since. He would like welfare to reflect how much you have paid in.

reflect how much you have paid in. reflect how much you have paid in.

I think personally they should pay I think personally they should pay

I think personally they should pay I think personally they should pay

someone like me, I'm 59 years old, someone like me, I'm 59 years old,

someone like me, I'm 59 years old, someone like me, I'm 59 years old,

I have get more money than somebody I have get more money than somebody

I have get more money than somebody who has never worked. Because I

who has never worked. Because I who has never worked. Because I

who has never worked. Because I have paid my tax and insurance all

have paid my tax and insurance all have paid my tax and insurance all

that time. You have contributed all that time. You have contributed all

that time. You have contributed all that time. You have contributed all

your life. It is all like those who your life. It is all like those who

your life. It is all like those who your life. It is all like those who

have up there and seeing what they have up there and seeing what they

have up there and seeing what they have up there and seeing what they

can do and they try doing it and can do and they try doing it and

can do and they try doing it and living on it, they wouldn't manage,

living on it, they wouldn't manage, they couldn't survive.

they couldn't survive. they couldn't survive.

When asked to choose one criterian When asked to choose one criterian

When asked to choose one criterian for gauging whether people should

for gauging whether people should for gauging whether people should

obtain benefit, nearly half of all obtain benefit, nearly half of all

obtain benefit, nearly half of all respondants said it should be based

respondants said it should be based on contribution, through years

on contribution, through years on contribution, through years

worked or care provided. 24% worked or care provided. 24%

worked or care provided. 24% thought need, 16% thought it should

thought need, 16% thought it should thought need, 16% thought it should

go to everyone, regardless of need or contribution.

or contribution. or contribution.

Research shows young people hold Research shows young people hold

Research shows young people hold even more sceptical views. In the

even more sceptical views. In the even more sceptical views. In the

future experts agree there will future experts agree there will

future experts agree there will probably need to be a new

probably need to be a new probably need to be a new

settlement, if support for the settlement, if support for the

settlement, if support for the welfare state is to be maintained.

welfare state is to be maintained. More immediately ministers are

More immediately ministers are More immediately ministers are

setting about finding more cuts to setting about finding more cuts to

setting about finding more cuts to the welfare budget, safe that

the welfare budget, safe that the welfare budget, safe that

public opinion is on their side, public opinion is on their side,

public opinion is on their side, public opinion is on their side,

but if it shifts, it will be a but if it shifts, it will be a

fiercesome opponent. The question fiercesome opponent. The question

fiercesome opponent. The question is have attitudes changed, or are

is have attitudes changed, or are is have attitudes changed, or are

politicians catching up with public politicians catching up with public

politicians catching up with public opinion. She have James Bartholemew,

opinion. She have James Bartholemew, opinion. She have James Bartholemew,

author of The Welfare State We're author of The Welfare State We're

author of The Welfare State We're In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The

In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The

Spirit Level: Why Equality is Spirit Level: Why Equality is

Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley

Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley

who was Secretary of State for who was Secretary of State for

who was Secretary of State for Social Security in the last

Social Security in the last Conservative Government. And Kate

Conservative Government. And Kate Conservative Government. And Kate

Green, the Labour spokesperson on Green, the Labour spokesperson on

Green, the Labour spokesperson on equality, and former head of the

equality, and former head of the equality, and former head of the

Child Poverty Action Group. Peter Child Poverty Action Group. Peter

Child Poverty Action Group. Peter Child Poverty Action Group. Peter

Lilley, can I ask you, when you Lilley, can I ask you, when you

Lilley, can I ask you, when you were Secretary of State in this

were Secretary of State in this were Secretary of State in this

area, you were struggling against area, you were struggling against

area, you were struggling against opposition to bring in benefit

opposition to bring in benefit opposition to bring in benefit

changes. Do you think attitudes changes. Do you think attitudes

changes. Do you think attitudes changes. Do you think attitudes

have changed? I wasn't, I had broad have changed? I wasn't, I had broad

have changed? I wasn't, I had broad public support. You don't think

public support. You don't think public support. You don't think

attitudes have changed? They have attitudes have changed? They have

attitudes have changed? They have change, they have hardened a bit.

change, they have hardened a bit. change, they have hardened a bit.

What has mainly happened is the What has mainly happened is the

liberal intelligenceia have caught liberal intelligenceia have caught

liberal intelligenceia have caught up with ordinary working people. I

up with ordinary working people. I found most people, particularly

found most people, particularly found most people, particularly

found most people, particularly those on low incomes wanted to see

those on low incomes wanted to see those on low incomes wanted to see

those on low incomes wanted to see the safety net kept so if they fell

the safety net kept so if they fell the safety net kept so if they fell

on hard times, but they wanted on hard times, but they wanted

on hard times, but they wanted conditions applied that you didn't

conditions applied that you didn't conditions applied that you didn't

get them until you were genuinely get them until you were genuinely

get them until you were genuinely needing them. I had tremendous

needing them. I had tremendous needing them. I had tremendous

support and not problem at all. support and not problem at all.

support and not problem at all. Constantly told I was being brave,

Constantly told I was being brave, Constantly told I was being brave,

Constantly told I was being brave, it didn't feel like. That when I

it didn't feel like. That when I it didn't feel like. That when I

walked through the streets of walked through the streets of

walked through the streets of Hackney and Islington, when I went

Hackney and Islington, when I went Hackney and Islington, when I went

Hackney and Islington, when I went there people asked if I was Lilley

there people asked if I was Lilley there people asked if I was Lilley

there people asked if I was Lilley there people asked if I was Lilley

and to keep it up. It is true that and to keep it up. It is true that

and to keep it up. It is true that attitudes have been hardening over

attitudes have been hardening over attitudes have been hardening over

the last two decades, equally the the last two decades, equally the

the last two decades, equally the conditions for benefit have been

conditions for benefit have been tightened up quite considerably

tightened up quite considerably tightened up quite considerably

tightened up quite considerably over that period as well. And for

over that period as well. And for over that period as well. And for

example lone parents are being example lone parents are being

example lone parents are being expected work as their children get

expected work as their children get expected work as their children get

younger and younger, and we have younger and younger, and we have

younger and younger, and we have younger and younger, and we have

seen new tests for people on the seen new tests for people on the

seen new tests for people on the disability benefits who are also

disability benefits who are also disability benefits who are also

now expected to be assessed as now expected to be assessed as

now expected to be assessed as available for work. What is driving

available for work. What is driving available for work. What is driving

available for work. What is driving it? There is less sympathy even as

it? There is less sympathy even as it? There is less sympathy even as

the system is getting tougher. A the system is getting tougher. A

the system is getting tougher. A the system is getting tougher. A

lot of people still think not tough lot of people still think not tough

enough? Absolutely, ratchetting up enough? Absolutely, ratchetting up

the conditionality doesn't appear the conditionality doesn't appear

the conditionality doesn't appear to be shifting public opinion in

to be shifting public opinion in to be shifting public opinion in

the way that you might expect. the way that you might expect.

the way that you might expect. Building trust in the system either.

Building trust in the system either. Building trust in the system either.

I think that's partly because we I think that's partly because we

I think that's partly because we have a rhetoric, a political

have a rhetoric, a political have a rhetoric, a political

rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media

rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media has very, very hostile to benefits

has very, very hostile to benefits receipt. That is undoubtedly

receipt. That is undoubtedly receipt. That is undoubtedly

creating a climate of stigma and creating a climate of stigma and

suspicion. People's understanding suspicion. People's understanding

suspicion. People's understanding suspicion. People's understanding

of the benefits system is as a of the benefits system is as a

result very, very misinformed. result very, very misinformed.

result very, very misinformed. James Bartholemew, you saw in that

James Bartholemew, you saw in that James Bartholemew, you saw in that

James Bartholemew, you saw in that piece that you can get a conflict

piece that you can get a conflict here, because people are

here, because people are here, because people are

complaining about benefit, but they complaining about benefit, but they

complaining about benefit, but they still want to get their own

still want to get their own still want to get their own

still want to get their own benefits. How real do you think the

benefits. How real do you think the benefits. How real do you think the

change in attitude is towards change in attitude is towards

change in attitude is towards welfare, when it comes to cutting

welfare, when it comes to cutting welfare, when it comes to cutting

benefits as the Government is, that benefits as the Government is, that

benefits as the Government is, that benefits as the Government is, that

actually affect a lot of people? actually affect a lot of people?

actually affect a lot of people? actually affect a lot of people?

think it is a very real change. And think it is a very real change. And

think it is a very real change. And it is like watching something

it is like watching something it is like watching something

happening in slow motion. People happening in slow motion. People

happening in slow motion. People happening in slow motion. People

are waking up to the fact that the are waking up to the fact that the

welfare state has become welfare state has become

welfare state has become dysfuntional. And that we are in

dysfuntional. And that we are in dysfuntional. And that we are in

situation now where people who the situation now where people who the

situation now where people who the Government defiance as being in

Government defiance as being in poverty, it is simultaneously

poverty, it is simultaneously poverty, it is simultaneously

charging them income tax. They can charging them income tax. They can

charging them income tax. They can see this is absurd. They are

see this is absurd. They are see this is absurd. They are

outraged when they are in a outraged when they are in a

outraged when they are in a position where they are not much

position where they are not much position where they are not much

position where they are not much better off than somebody who is not

better off than somebody who is not better off than somebody who is not

working, and who they believe is working, and who they believe is

working, and who they believe is working, and who they believe is

not trying to work. It is causing not trying to work. It is causing

not trying to work. It is causing not trying to work. It is causing

outrage. It doesn't need to be in outrage. It doesn't need to be in

outrage. It doesn't need to be in the media because people who are

the media because people who are the media because people who are

directly seeing it among people who directly seeing it among people who

directly seeing it among people who directly seeing it among people who

live near them. It is also not much live near them. It is also not much

live near them. It is also not much live near them. It is also not much

in some of the media. You wouldn't in some of the media. You wouldn't

in some of the media. You wouldn't get much about fraud, for example,

get much about fraud, for example, get much about fraud, for example,

in the Guardian. It depends which in the Guardian. It depends which

in the Guardian. It depends which in the Guardian. It depends which

media you are reading. The BBC does media you are reading. The BBC does

media you are reading. The BBC does media you are reading. The BBC does

not cover lots of fraud stories in not cover lots of fraud stories in

not cover lots of fraud stories in its news broadcasts, not saying it

its news broadcasts, not saying it its news broadcasts, not saying it

its news broadcasts, not saying it should. It is not all over the

should. It is not all over the should. It is not all over the

should. It is not all over the media by any means. Kate Pickett do

media by any means. Kate Pickett do media by any means. Kate Pickett do

media by any means. Kate Pickett do you think there has been a change?

you think there has been a change? you think there has been a change?

you think there has been a change? I see it all the time. Although we

I see it all the time. Although we I see it all the time. Although we

talk about the financial crisis, talk about the financial crisis,

talk about the financial crisis, and people blaming the bankers,

and people blaming the bankers, and people blaming the bankers,

when you get people together, they when you get people together, they

when you get people together, they when you get people together, they

tend to get off the subject of the tend to get off the subject of the

tend to get off the subject of the bankers quickly and start talking

bankers quickly and start talking bankers quickly and start talking

bankers quickly and start talking about the person next door being on

about the person next door being on about the person next door being on

benefits who shouldn't be on benefits who shouldn't be on

benefits who shouldn't be on benefits and the unfairness of the

benefits and the unfairness of the benefits and the unfairness of the

benefits and the unfairness of the system. This has come out of the

system. This has come out of the system. This has come out of the

financial crisis? Kate Green is financial crisis? Kate Green is

financial crisis? Kate Green is right, the evidence has shown that

right, the evidence has shown that right, the evidence has shown that

attitudes have hardened a lot over attitudes have hardened a lot over

attitudes have hardened a lot over attitudes have hardened a lot over

the past couple of decade. And I the past couple of decade. And I

the past couple of decade. And I think she's also right that the

think she's also right that the think she's also right that the

think she's also right that the media have a role to play there. I

media have a role to play there. I media have a role to play there. I

would also draw attention to the would also draw attention to the

would also draw attention to the rise in inequality over that time

rise in inequality over that time rise in inequality over that time

period. What happens when the gap period. What happens when the gap

period. What happens when the gap between rich and poor gets bigger.

between rich and poor gets bigger. between rich and poor gets bigger.

between rich and poor gets bigger. What happens is we lose a sense of

What happens is we lose a sense of What happens is we lose a sense of

social cohesion and trust in each social cohesion and trust in each

social cohesion and trust in each other. Attitudes harden, we see a

other. Attitudes harden, we see a other. Attitudes harden, we see a

lot more downward prejudice. This lot more downward prejudice. This

lot more downward prejudice. This lot more downward prejudice. This

change in mood is also a mood change in mood is also a mood

against redistribution, there against redistribution, there

against redistribution, there against redistribution, there

doesn't seem to be a reaction to doesn't seem to be a reaction to

doesn't seem to be a reaction to that which is people? Surveys show

that which is people? Surveys show that which is people? Surveys show

year after year that actually year after year that actually

year after year that actually people are in favour of

people are in favour of people are in favour of

redistribution. At the same time redistribution. At the same time

redistribution. At the same time they can hold attitudes towards the

they can hold attitudes towards the they can hold attitudes towards the

poor that are very disheartening. I poor that are very disheartening. I

poor that are very disheartening. I think this rising hardened attitude

think this rising hardened attitude think this rising hardened attitude

is something that the Government is something that the Government

is something that the Government should be trying to tackle theself.

should be trying to tackle theself. should be trying to tackle theself.

should be trying to tackle theself. I think they say they are tackling

I think they say they are tackling I think they say they are tackling

it by changing the incentives of it by changing the incentives of

it by changing the incentives of the system. Do you think people

the system. Do you think people the system. Do you think people

will change their attitude if it will change their attitude if it

will change their attitude if it looks like a fairer system, if

looks like a fairer system, if looks like a fairer system, if

Universal Credit seems to be fairer, Universal Credit seems to be fairer,

Universal Credit seems to be fairer, rewarding work? They are not going

rewarding work? They are not going rewarding work? They are not going

to change their attitude if the to change their attitude if the

to change their attitude if the attitude is wanting benefit to go

attitude is wanting benefit to go attitude is wanting benefit to go

attitude is wanting benefit to go to those who genuinely need it and

to those who genuinely need it and to those who genuinely need it and

deserve it and have contributed to deserve it and have contributed to

deserve it and have contributed to it, and being reluctant to pay

it, and being reluctant to pay it, and being reluctant to pay

benefit to those who they feel benefit to those who they feel

benefit to those who they feel could work, should work and are

could work, should work and are overclaiming or shouldn't be

overclaiming or shouldn't be overclaiming or shouldn't be

overclaiming or shouldn't be entitled to claim at all. As Kate

entitled to claim at all. As Kate entitled to claim at all. As Kate

entitled to claim at all. As Kate Green says, it doesn't seem to have

Green says, it doesn't seem to have Green says, it doesn't seem to have

changed so far, increasing the changed so far, increasing the

conditions, making it tougher, conditions, making it tougher,

conditions, making it tougher, doesn't seem to have changed?

doesn't seem to have changed? shouldn't change those attitudes.

shouldn't change those attitudes. shouldn't change those attitudes.

The conditions are now responding The conditions are now responding

The conditions are now responding to public opinion. The idea that

to public opinion. The idea that to public opinion. The idea that

public opinion has been moulded by public opinion has been moulded by

public opinion has been moulded by public opinion has been moulded by

the media, it is always a mistake. the media, it is always a mistake.

the media, it is always a mistake. the media, it is always a mistake.

I have been guilty of it myself, I have been guilty of it myself,

I have been guilty of it myself, I have been guilty of it myself,

when we blame the media for public when we blame the media for public

when we blame the media for public opinion. Public opinion tends to

opinion. Public opinion tends to opinion. Public opinion tends to

influence what the media say rather influence what the media say rather

influence what the media say rather influence what the media say rather

than visa versa. What does it mean than visa versa. What does it mean

than visa versa. What does it mean for Labour, though? It is very

for Labour, though? It is very for Labour, though? It is very

important that we have an informed important that we have an informed

important that we have an informed debate about welfare, and we choose

debate about welfare, and we choose debate about welfare, and we choose

the policies that are actually the policies that are actually

the policies that are actually effective in enabling people to be

effective in enabling people to be effective in enabling people to be

in work, which is, afterall, what in work, which is, afterall, what

in work, which is, afterall, what in work, which is, afterall, what

we want to see for people who can we want to see for people who can

we want to see for people who can we want to see for people who can

work. I think that means that we work. I think that means that we

work. I think that means that we work. I think that means that we

have got to recognise that a very have got to recognise that a very

substantial proportion of benefit substantial proportion of benefit

substantial proportion of benefit recipients are in paid employment.

recipients are in paid employment. recipients are in paid employment.

recipients are in paid employment. As was said earlier in the little

As was said earlier in the little As was said earlier in the little

As was said earlier in the little clip we saw, their wages don't pay

clip we saw, their wages don't pay clip we saw, their wages don't pay

enough. I think it is also enough. I think it is also

enough. I think it is also enough. I think it is also

important to note when you say that important to note when you say that

important to note when you say that 30% of the public expenditure

30% of the public expenditure 30% of the public expenditure

budget goes on social security, budget goes on social security,

budget goes on social security, that includes the state pension,

that includes the state pension, that includes the state pension,

that includes the state pension, which is the largest part. I said

which is the largest part. I said which is the largest part. I said

which is the largest part. I said that too. I said that quite a long

that too. I said that quite a long that too. I said that quite a long

that too. I said that quite a long time ago. It is part of expenditure

time ago. It is part of expenditure time ago. It is part of expenditure

and really important. It is and really important. It is

and really important. It is important we recognise that the

important we recognise that the important we recognise that the

amount on strictly out of work amount on strictly out of work

amount on strictly out of work benefits is rather small. We can

benefits is rather small. We can benefits is rather small. We can

benefits is rather small. We can get into this la, you can stay here

get into this la, you can stay here get into this la, you can stay here

get into this la, you can stay here and we will talk about -- later,

and we will talk about -- later, and we will talk about -- later,

and we will talk about -- later, you can stay here and we will talk

you can stay here and we will talk you can stay here and we will talk

about it later. One benefit with about it later. One benefit with

about it later. One benefit with the changing negotiation of benefit,

the changing negotiation of benefit, the changing negotiation of benefit,

is the benefit cap. Today the is the benefit cap. Today the

is the benefit cap. Today the Government said it would roll it

Government said it would roll it Government said it would roll it

out in July and fully implemented out in July and fully implemented

out in July and fully implemented out in July and fully implemented

in December. No family by then will in December. No family by then will

in December. No family by then will in December. No family by then will

be able to take more than �26,000 a be able to take more than �26,000 a

be able to take more than �26,000 a year in benefits from the state.

year in benefits from the state. Four councils will start

Four councils will start Four councils will start

implementing the cap next month. implementing the cap next month.

implementing the cap next month. Already people in some areas with

Already people in some areas with Already people in some areas with

large families are finding they large families are finding they

have to move. have to move.

have to move. have to move.

We have been to Haringay to find We have been to Haringay to find

We have been to Haringay to find out how they are doing.

out how they are doing. out how they are doing.

Haringay is one of four London Haringay is one of four London

Haringay is one of four London Boroughs which next month will

Boroughs which next month will Boroughs which next month will

Boroughs which next month will begin a trial of the benefit cap.

begin a trial of the benefit cap. begin a trial of the benefit cap.

One of the Government's policies, One of the Government's policies,

One of the Government's policies, designed to help and push people

designed to help and push people designed to help and push people

off benefits and into work. off benefits and into work.

off benefits and into work. off benefits and into work.

Families will get no more than �500 Families will get no more than �500

Families will get no more than �500 in benefits per week, including all

in benefits per week, including all in benefits per week, including all

housing costs. A single person can housing costs. A single person can

housing costs. A single person can get no more than �350. Haringey

get no more than �350. Haringey get no more than �350. Haringey

Council said over 1,000 households Council said over 1,000 households

could be affected. could be affected.

could be affected. could be affected.

Some are worried they will have to Some are worried they will have to

Some are worried they will have to move. This single mother of four

move. This single mother of four move. This single mother of four

move. This single mother of four young children told us she had been

young children told us she had been young children told us she had been

advised that unless she finds work advised that unless she finds work

advised that unless she finds work advised that unless she finds work

by the 15th of April, her housing by the 15th of April, her housing

by the 15th of April, her housing by the 15th of April, her housing

benefit will be cut by more than benefit will be cut by more than

benefit will be cut by more than half. She has a hairdressing

half. She has a hairdressing half. She has a hairdressing

qualification, but no job now. qualification, but no job now.

qualification, but no job now. qualification, but no job now.

They say now to find work, but I'm They say now to find work, but I'm

They say now to find work, but I'm They say now to find work, but I'm

searching for work for a long time. searching for work for a long time.

searching for work for a long time. searching for work for a long time.

But I couldn't get the job. I don't But I couldn't get the job. I don't

But I couldn't get the job. I don't like to live without work. She's

like to live without work. She's like to live without work. She's

like to live without work. She's been on a job seekers course, and

been on a job seekers course, and been on a job seekers course, and

been on a job seekers course, and she has had help rewriting her CV.

she has had help rewriting her CV. she has had help rewriting her CV.

she has had help rewriting her CV. She went to talk to the council,

She went to talk to the council, She went to talk to the council,

they gave her financial advice, they gave her financial advice,

they gave her financial advice, they also suggested she could move

they also suggested she could move they also suggested she could move

to another city, several locations to another city, several locations

to another city, several locations to another city, several locations

were mentioned. They say if I don't were mentioned. They say if I don't

were mentioned. They say if I don't were mentioned. They say if I don't

get job by that time, they say they get job by that time, they say they

get job by that time, they say they get job by that time, they say they

are going to move me into a cheap are going to move me into a cheap

are going to move me into a cheap area like Birmingham. And what's

area like Birmingham. And what's area like Birmingham. And what's

area like Birmingham. And what's your view of that? I am not going,

your view of that? I am not going, your view of that? I am not going,

because my children they love the because my children they love the

because my children they love the school. I don't have anyone there.

school. I don't have anyone there. school. I don't have anyone there.

Supporter -- supporters of the cap Supporter -- supporters of the cap

Supporter -- supporters of the cap say it shouldn't mean people on

say it shouldn't mean people on say it shouldn't mean people on

say it shouldn't mean people on benefits should have to move to the

benefits should have to move to the benefits should have to move to the

cheapest areas, but they should be cheapest areas, but they should be

cheapest areas, but they should be flexible when it comes to work.

flexible when it comes to work. flexible when it comes to work.

flexible when it comes to work. flexible when it comes to work.

There is a debate to be had, and we There is a debate to be had, and we

There is a debate to be had, and we can have it sensibly about whether

can have it sensibly about whether can have it sensibly about whether

can have it sensibly about whether we should expect people who are on

we should expect people who are on we should expect people who are on

we should expect people who are on welfare to move if they can have

welfare to move if they can have welfare to move if they can have

other opportunities to work. A lot other opportunities to work. A lot

other opportunities to work. A lot of people don't understand why you

of people don't understand why you of people don't understand why you

of people don't understand why you have to be either very well off, or

have to be either very well off, or have to be either very well off, or

have to be either very well off, or very poor to live in certain parts

very poor to live in certain parts very poor to live in certain parts

of particularly London. I think the of particularly London. I think the

of particularly London. I think the average working family, perhaps not

average working family, perhaps not average working family, perhaps not

average working family, perhaps not on welfare looks at some people on

on welfare looks at some people on on welfare looks at some people on

welfare and thinks why can't -- welfare and thinks why can't --

welfare and thinks why can't -- welfare and thinks why can't --

can't I live in those areas. There can't I live in those areas. There

can't I live in those areas. There can't I live in those areas. There

is a debate to be had about whether is a debate to be had about whether

is a debate to be had about whether is a debate to be had about whether

we can move people around, if it we can move people around, if it

we can move people around, if it we can move people around, if it

gives them a better chance to get gives them a better chance to get

gives them a better chance to get on the work ladder. The benefits

on the work ladder. The benefits on the work ladder. The benefits

on the work ladder. The benefits cap is one a number of welfare

cap is one a number of welfare cap is one a number of welfare

changes brought in this year. The changes brought in this year. The

changes brought in this year. The changes brought in this year. The

idea is to pilot across four London idea is to pilot across four London

idea is to pilot across four London borrowings across to April, and

borrowings across to April, and borrowings across to April, and

then -- boroughs across to April then -- boroughs across to April

then -- boroughs across to April then -- boroughs across to April

and then out over the rest of the and then out over the rest of the

and then out over the rest of the capital. The four local authorities

capital. The four local authorities capital. The four local authorities

involved say many thousands of involved say many thousands of

households could be affected. households could be affected.

households could be affected. Haringay Council told us people are

Haringay Council told us people are Haringay Council told us people are

being advised they could move. But being advised they could move. But

being advised they could move. But being advised they could move. But

during the six month of the pilot, during the six month of the pilot,

during the six month of the pilot, no-one would have to go against

no-one would have to go against no-one would have to go against

their will. That might change when their will. That might change when

their will. That might change when the policy is extended nationwide.

the policy is extended nationwide. the policy is extended nationwide.

the policy is extended nationwide. What we have to have is an honest

What we have to have is an honest What we have to have is an honest

conversation with people. I don't conversation with people. I don't

conversation with people. I don't conversation with people. I don't

think people would be very happy if think people would be very happy if

think people would be very happy if we didn't explore with them the

we didn't explore with them the we didn't explore with them the

we didn't explore with them the need that they may need to move in

need that they may need to move in need that they may need to move in

the long-term. Because if this the long-term. Because if this

the long-term. Because if this policy doesn't change, if the

policy doesn't change, if the policy doesn't change, if the

housing benefit cap is rolled out housing benefit cap is rolled out

housing benefit cap is rolled out nationally, then people will be in

nationally, then people will be in nationally, then people will be in

a situation where over time their a situation where over time their

a situation where over time their housing costs are going to remain

housing costs are going to remain housing costs are going to remain

high, while their housing benefit high, while their housing benefit

high, while their housing benefit is much reduced. That's an

is much reduced. That's an is much reduced. That's an

unsustainable situation, it is not unsustainable situation, it is not

unsustainable situation, it is not something that councils can pick up.

something that councils can pick up. something that councils can pick up.

something that councils can pick up. If I look at my own authority, we

If I look at my own authority, we If I look at my own authority, we

If I look at my own authority, we are looking at a �7 million bill,

are looking at a �7 million bill, are looking at a �7 million bill,

are looking at a �7 million bill, were we to pick up the housing

were we to pick up the housing benefit shortfall that these

benefit shortfall that these benefit shortfall that these

families in my borough will be facing.

facing. facing.

facing. But you are going to have to meet

But you are going to have to meet But you are going to have to meet

But you are going to have to meet that bill over the next six month

that bill over the next six month that bill over the next six month

that bill over the next six month then? In the next six months, in

then? In the next six months, in then? In the next six months, in

the short-term, I expect that will the short-term, I expect that will

the short-term, I expect that will the short-term, I expect that will

be the case for many of those be the case for many of those

be the case for many of those properties and many of those

household, yes. household, yes.

household, yes. household, yes.

household, yes. The benefit cap is one of a raft of

The benefit cap is one of a raft of The benefit cap is one of a raft of

welfare changes that come in this welfare changes that come in this

welfare changes that come in this year. The Government has said it

year. The Government has said it year. The Government has said it

year. The Government has said it want there to be a cultural shift

want there to be a cultural shift want there to be a cultural shift

want there to be a cultural shift when it comes to welfare. And it

when it comes to welfare. And it when it comes to welfare. And it

promised to save �18 billion from promised to save �18 billion from

promised to save �18 billion from the benefits bill by the next

the benefits bill by the next the benefits bill by the next

election. The impact on individuals election. The impact on individuals

election. The impact on individuals election. The impact on individuals

and families has yet to be seen. and families has yet to be seen.

and families has yet to be seen. and families has yet to be seen.

and families has yet to be seen. Here is a quick look at some of the

Here is a quick look at some of the Here is a quick look at some of the

other specific measures that will other specific measures that will

other specific measures that will other specific measures that will

start to come in this year, also start to come in this year, also

from Sanchia Berg. from Sanchia Berg.

from Sanchia Berg. From April a range of welfare

From April a range of welfare From April a range of welfare

changes will start to take effect. changes will start to take effect.

changes will start to take effect. Pilots for Universal Credit will

Pilots for Universal Credit will Pilots for Universal Credit will

begin, it will be extended across begin, it will be extended across