07/03/2013 Newsnight


07/03/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Stephanie Flanders.


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Transcript


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More than a third of the tax you More than a third of the tax you

:00:14.:00:15.

More than a third of the tax you pay gets spent on welfare. The

:00:16.:00:16.

pay gets spent on welfare. The pay gets spent on welfare. The

:00:16.:00:18.

polls suggest you don't like that polls suggest you don't like that

:00:18.:00:18.

polls suggest you don't like that one little bit. Ministers aren't

:00:18.:00:20.

one little bit. Ministers aren't one little bit. Ministers aren't

:00:20.:00:21.

one little bit. Ministers aren't the only ones who want people on

:00:21.:00:22.

the only ones who want people on the only ones who want people on

:00:22.:00:23.

the only ones who want people on benefits to stand on their own two

:00:23.:00:24.

benefits to stand on their own two benefits to stand on their own two

:00:24.:00:26.

feet. In this London Borough, they feet. In this London Borough, they

:00:26.:00:27.

feet. In this London Borough, they feet. In this London Borough, they

:00:27.:00:28.

will impose the cap on benefits on will impose the cap on benefits on

:00:28.:00:30.

will impose the cap on benefits on will impose the cap on benefits on

:00:30.:00:31.

families in a few week, whatever it families in a few week, whatever it

:00:31.:00:33.

families in a few week, whatever it families in a few week, whatever it

:00:33.:00:33.

takes. They say if I don't get a takes. They say if I don't get a

:00:33.:00:35.

takes. They say if I don't get a takes. They say if I don't get a

:00:35.:00:36.

job up to that time, they say they job up to that time, they say they

:00:36.:00:38.

job up to that time, they say they job up to that time, they say they

:00:38.:00:40.

will move me into a cheap area like will move me into a cheap area like

:00:40.:00:41.

will move me into a cheap area like Birmingham. What's your view of

:00:41.:00:46.

Birmingham. What's your view of that? I'm not going.

:00:46.:00:47.

that? I'm not going. that? I'm not going.

:00:47.:00:48.

This northern community charity is This northern community charity is

:00:48.:00:50.

This northern community charity is filling the gap. And also finding

:00:50.:00:52.

filling the gap. And also finding filling the gap. And also finding

:00:52.:00:52.

attitudes are changing. If you have attitudes are changing. If you have

:00:52.:00:54.

attitudes are changing. If you have attitudes are changing. If you have

:00:54.:00:56.

been brought up in a workless house, been brought up in a workless house,

:00:56.:00:59.

been brought up in a workless house, your options to then go into

:00:59.:01:01.

your options to then go into your options to then go into

:01:01.:01:02.

employment, especially in an area employment, especially in an area

:01:02.:01:04.

employment, especially in an area like Accrington are very limited.

:01:04.:01:05.

like Accrington are very limited. like Accrington are very limited.

:01:05.:01:07.

The Employment Minister is here. The Employment Minister is here.

:01:07.:01:08.

The Employment Minister is here. Why have our attitudes to welfare

:01:08.:01:09.

Why have our attitudes to welfare Why have our attitudes to welfare

:01:09.:01:09.

Why have our attitudes to welfare changed, and are there more cuts to

:01:09.:01:15.

come? come?

:01:15.:01:16.

come? come?

:01:16.:01:17.

# You say you don't believe in signs

:01:17.:01:19.

signs # From up above

:01:19.:01:20.

# From up above # From up above

:01:20.:01:22.

We have been talking to Bonnie We have been talking to Bonnie

:01:22.:01:24.

We have been talking to Bonnie Tyler, the Welch-born singer who

:01:24.:01:26.

Tyler, the Welch-born singer who Tyler, the Welch-born singer who

:01:26.:01:30.

will carry Britain's hopes into Eurovision.

:01:30.:01:34.

If

:01:34.:01:34.

If you

:01:34.:01:35.

If you try

:01:35.:01:35.

If you try to

:01:35.:01:36.

If you try to squeeze

:01:36.:01:36.

If you try to squeeze Government

:01:36.:01:36.

If you try to squeeze Government spending,

:01:36.:01:37.

spending, the

:01:37.:01:37.

If you try to squeeze Government spending, the Welfare

:01:37.:01:37.

spending, the Welfare Bill

:01:37.:01:37.

If you try to squeeze Government spending, the Welfare Bill is

:01:37.:01:38.

spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty

:01:38.:01:38.

pretty hard

:01:38.:01:39.

spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty hard to

:01:39.:01:39.

pretty hard to overlook.

:01:39.:01:39.

spending, the Welfare Bill is pretty hard to overlook. Welfare

:01:39.:01:40.

pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is

:01:40.:01:40.

pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost

:01:40.:01:41.

almost a

:01:41.:01:41.

pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost a third

:01:41.:01:41.

almost a third of

:01:41.:01:42.

pretty hard to overlook. Welfare is almost a third of all

:01:42.:01:42.

almost a third of all Government

:01:42.:01:42.

almost a third of all Government spending,

:01:43.:01:43.

spending, more

:01:43.:01:44.

almost a third of all Government spending, more than

:01:44.:01:44.

spending, more than �200

:01:44.:01:44.

almost a third of all Government spending, more than �200 billion

:01:44.:01:45.

spending, more than �200 billion a

:01:45.:01:45.

spending, more than �200 billion a year.

:01:45.:01:45.

year. That

:01:45.:01:45.

spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is

:01:45.:01:45.

year. That is twice

:01:45.:01:46.

spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is twice what

:01:46.:01:46.

year. That is twice what we

:01:46.:01:46.

spending, more than �200 billion a year. That is twice what we spend

:01:46.:01:47.

year. That is twice what we spend on

:01:47.:01:47.

on the

:01:47.:01:47.

year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS,

:01:47.:01:48.

on the NHS, and

:01:48.:01:49.

year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS, and six-times

:01:49.:01:49.

on the NHS, and six-times what

:01:49.:01:49.

year. That is twice what we spend on the NHS, and six-times what the

:01:49.:01:49.

on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry

:01:49.:01:49.

Ministry of

:01:49.:01:50.

on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry of Defence

:01:50.:01:50.

Ministry of Defence gets.

:01:50.:01:51.

on the NHS, and six-times what the Ministry of Defence gets. Even

:01:51.:01:51.

Ministry of Defence gets. Even before

:01:51.:01:52.

before the

:01:52.:01:52.

Ministry of Defence gets. Even before the Chancellor

:01:52.:01:52.

before the Chancellor had

:01:52.:01:52.

Ministry of Defence gets. Even before the Chancellor had written

:01:52.:01:52.

before the Chancellor had written his

:01:52.:01:53.

his first

:01:53.:01:53.

before the Chancellor had written his first budget,

:01:53.:01:54.

his first budget, the

:01:54.:01:54.

before the Chancellor had written his first budget, the coalition

:01:54.:01:54.

his first budget, the coalition had

:01:54.:01:55.

his first budget, the coalition had declared

:01:55.:01:55.

declared a

:01:55.:01:56.

his first budget, the coalition had declared a big

:01:56.:01:56.

declared a big chunk

:01:56.:01:56.

his first budget, the coalition had declared a big chunk of

:01:56.:01:56.

declared a big chunk of that

:01:57.:01:57.

his first budget, the coalition had declared a big chunk of that off

:01:57.:01:57.

declared a big chunk of that off limits.

:01:57.:01:58.

limits. Benefits

:01:58.:01:59.

declared a big chunk of that off limits. Benefits solely

:01:59.:01:59.

limits. Benefits solely for

:01:59.:02:00.

declared a big chunk of that off limits. Benefits solely for the

:02:00.:02:00.

limits. Benefits solely for the elderly,

:02:00.:02:01.

elderly, which

:02:01.:02:01.

limits. Benefits solely for the elderly, which accounts

:02:01.:02:02.

elderly, which accounts for

:02:02.:02:03.

limits. Benefits solely for the elderly, which accounts for two

:02:03.:02:04.

elderly, which accounts for two fifths

:02:04.:02:04.

fifths of

:02:04.:02:04.

elderly, which accounts for two fifths of the

:02:04.:02:04.

fifths of the total.

:02:04.:02:05.

elderly, which accounts for two fifths of the total. Universal

:02:05.:02:06.

fifths of the total. Universal benefits

:02:06.:02:06.

benefits like

:02:06.:02:06.

fifths of the total. Universal benefits like the

:02:06.:02:07.

benefits like the Winter

:02:07.:02:07.

fifths of the total. Universal benefits like the Winter Fuel

:02:07.:02:07.

benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance

:02:07.:02:08.

Allowance is

:02:08.:02:08.

benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance is safe.

:02:09.:02:09.

Allowance is safe. And

:02:09.:02:09.

benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance is safe. And the

:02:09.:02:10.

Allowance is safe. And the pensions

:02:10.:02:10.

Allowance is safe. And the pensions going

:02:10.:02:10.

going up

:02:10.:02:11.

Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at

:02:11.:02:11.

going up at least

:02:12.:02:12.

Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at least as

:02:12.:02:12.

going up at least as fast

:02:12.:02:12.

Allowance is safe. And the pensions going up at least as fast as

:02:12.:02:12.

going up at least as fast as average

:02:12.:02:13.

average earnings

:02:13.:02:13.

going up at least as fast as average earnings and

:02:13.:02:13.

average earnings and pensions.

:02:13.:02:13.

going up at least as fast as average earnings and pensions. What

:02:13.:02:14.

average earnings and pensions. What is

:02:14.:02:14.

is less,

:02:14.:02:15.

average earnings and pensions. What is less, for

:02:15.:02:15.

is less, for benefits

:02:15.:02:15.

average earnings and pensions. What is less, for benefits going

:02:15.:02:16.

is less, for benefits going to

:02:16.:02:16.

is less, for benefits going to people

:02:16.:02:16.

people below

:02:16.:02:16.

is less, for benefits going to people below pension

:02:16.:02:16.

people below pension age,

:02:16.:02:17.

is less, for benefits going to people below pension age, you

:02:17.:02:17.

people below pension age, you can

:02:17.:02:18.

people below pension age, you can see

:02:18.:02:18.

see why

:02:18.:02:18.

people below pension age, you can see why the

:02:18.:02:18.

see why the Government

:02:18.:02:19.

people below pension age, you can see why the Government is

:02:19.:02:19.

see why the Government is so

:02:19.:02:20.

see why the Government is so focused

:02:20.:02:20.

focused on

:02:20.:02:21.

see why the Government is so focused on housing

:02:21.:02:21.

focused on housing benefit.

:02:21.:02:23.

see why the Government is so focused on housing benefit. In

:02:23.:02:23.

focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12,

:02:23.:02:24.

2011/12, it

:02:24.:02:24.

focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12, it was

:02:24.:02:24.

2011/12, it was the

:02:24.:02:25.

focused on housing benefit. In 2011/12, it was the single

:02:25.:02:25.

2011/12, it was the single most

:02:25.:02:25.

2011/12, it was the single most important

:02:25.:02:26.

important item

:02:26.:02:26.

2011/12, it was the single most important item on

:02:26.:02:26.

important item on the

:02:26.:02:27.

2011/12, it was the single most important item on the benefit

:02:27.:02:27.

important item on the benefit bill,

:02:27.:02:27.

important item on the benefit bill, just

:02:27.:02:28.

just ahead

:02:29.:02:29.

important item on the benefit bill, just ahead of

:02:29.:02:29.

just ahead of Child

:02:29.:02:29.

important item on the benefit bill, just ahead of Child Tax

:02:29.:02:29.

just ahead of Child Tax Credit.

:02:29.:02:30.

just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most

:02:30.:02:30.

Most benefits

:02:30.:02:30.

just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will

:02:30.:02:30.

Most benefits will rise

:02:30.:02:31.

just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will rise by

:02:31.:02:31.

Most benefits will rise by only

:02:31.:02:31.

just ahead of Child Tax Credit. Most benefits will rise by only 1%

:02:31.:02:31.

Most benefits will rise by only 1% a

:02:31.:02:32.

a year

:02:32.:02:32.

Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over

:02:32.:02:32.

a year over the

:02:32.:02:33.

Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over the next

:02:33.:02:33.

a year over the next three

:02:33.:02:33.

Most benefits will rise by only 1% a year over the next three years,

:02:33.:02:33.

a year over the next three years, that

:02:33.:02:33.

that is

:02:33.:02:34.

a year over the next three years, that is slower

:02:34.:02:34.

that is slower than

:02:34.:02:34.

a year over the next three years, that is slower than inflation.

:02:34.:02:35.

that is slower than inflation. In

:02:35.:02:35.

that is slower than inflation. In four

:02:35.:02:35.

four years

:02:35.:02:36.

that is slower than inflation. In four years time,

:02:36.:02:36.

four years time, nearly

:02:36.:02:36.

that is slower than inflation. In four years time, nearly every

:02:36.:02:36.

four years time, nearly every one

:02:36.:02:37.

four years time, nearly every one of

:02:37.:02:37.

of those

:02:37.:02:37.

four years time, nearly every one of those been

:02:37.:02:38.

of those been fits

:02:38.:02:38.

four years time, nearly every one of those been fits will

:02:38.:02:38.

of those been fits will look

:02:38.:02:38.

four years time, nearly every one of those been fits will look very

:02:38.:02:38.

of those been fits will look very different.

:02:38.:02:39.

different. In

:02:39.:02:39.

of those been fits will look very different. In fact,

:02:39.:02:40.

different. In fact, six

:02:40.:02:40.

of those been fits will look very different. In fact, six of

:02:40.:02:41.

different. In fact, six of them,

:02:41.:02:41.

of those been fits will look very different. In fact, six of them, --

:02:41.:02:42.

different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit

:02:42.:02:42.

benefit also

:02:42.:02:42.

different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit also look

:02:42.:02:42.

benefit also look very

:02:42.:02:43.

different. In fact, six of them, -- benefit also look very different.

:02:43.:02:43.

benefit also look very different. In

:02:43.:02:43.

In fact

:02:44.:02:44.

benefit also look very different. In fact six

:02:44.:02:44.

In fact six of

:02:44.:02:44.

benefit also look very different. In fact six of them

:02:44.:02:45.

In fact six of them won't

:02:45.:02:45.

benefit also look very different. In fact six of them won't exist,

:02:45.:02:46.

In fact six of them won't exist, having

:02:46.:02:46.

having been

:02:46.:02:47.

In fact six of them won't exist, having been replaced

:02:47.:02:47.

having been replaced by

:02:47.:02:47.

In fact six of them won't exist, having been replaced by Universal

:02:47.:02:47.

having been replaced by Universal Credit.

:02:47.:02:47.

Credit. That

:02:47.:02:48.

having been replaced by Universal Credit. That comes

:02:48.:02:48.

Credit. That comes in

:02:48.:02:48.

having been replaced by Universal Credit. That comes in later

:02:48.:02:48.

Credit. That comes in later this

:02:48.:02:49.

Credit. That comes in later this year.

:02:49.:02:49.

year. You

:02:49.:02:49.

Credit. That comes in later this year. You take

:02:49.:02:49.

year. You take all

:02:49.:02:50.

Credit. That comes in later this year. You take all of

:02:50.:02:50.

year. You take all of these

:02:50.:02:50.

Credit. That comes in later this year. You take all of these changes

:02:50.:02:51.

year. You take all of these changes together,

:02:51.:02:51.

together, you

:02:51.:02:51.

year. You take all of these changes together, you have

:02:51.:02:51.

together, you have the

:02:51.:02:51.

year. You take all of these changes together, you have the most

:02:52.:02:52.

together, you have the most significant

:02:52.:02:52.

significant reform

:02:52.:02:53.

together, you have the most significant reform of

:02:53.:02:53.

significant reform of the

:02:53.:02:54.

together, you have the most significant reform of the welfare

:02:54.:02:55.

significant reform of the welfare system

:02:55.:02:55.

system since

:02:55.:02:55.

significant reform of the welfare system since 1948.

:02:55.:02:56.

system since 1948. Ministers

:02:56.:02:56.

significant reform of the welfare system since 1948. Ministers would

:02:56.:02:56.

system since 1948. Ministers would say

:02:56.:02:56.

say it

:02:56.:02:56.

system since 1948. Ministers would say it is

:02:57.:02:57.

say it is not

:02:57.:02:57.

system since 1948. Ministers would say it is not only

:02:57.:02:57.

say it is not only being

:02:57.:02:58.

system since 1948. Ministers would say it is not only being driven

:02:58.:02:58.

say it is not only being driven by

:02:58.:02:58.

say it is not only being driven by that

:02:58.:02:58.

that need

:02:58.:02:58.

say it is not only being driven by that need to

:02:58.:02:59.

that need to save

:02:59.:02:59.

say it is not only being driven by that need to save money.

:02:59.:03:00.

that need to save money. They

:03:00.:03:00.

They are

:03:00.:03:01.

that need to save money. They are also

:03:01.:03:01.

They are also responding

:03:01.:03:01.

that need to save money. They are also responding to

:03:01.:03:02.

They are also responding to the

:03:02.:03:02.

They are also responding to the fact

:03:02.:03:02.

fact that

:03:02.:03:03.

They are also responding to the fact that attitudes

:03:03.:03:03.

fact that attitudes towards

:03:03.:03:03.

They are also responding to the fact that attitudes towards welfare

:03:03.:03:03.

fact that attitudes towards welfare and

:03:03.:03:04.

and the

:03:04.:03:04.

fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people

:03:04.:03:04.

and the people who

:03:04.:03:04.

fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people who depend

:03:04.:03:04.

and the people who depend on

:03:05.:03:05.

fact that attitudes towards welfare and the people who depend on it

:03:05.:03:05.

and the people who depend on it seem

:03:05.:03:05.

seem to

:03:05.:03:06.

and the people who depend on it seem to have

:03:06.:03:06.

seem to have hardened.

:03:06.:03:07.

and the people who depend on it seem to have hardened. Ministers

:03:07.:03:07.

seem to have hardened. Ministers talk

:03:07.:03:08.

talk about

:03:08.:03:09.

seem to have hardened. Ministers talk about rewarding

:03:09.:03:09.

talk about rewarding strivers,

:03:09.:03:10.

seem to have hardened. Ministers talk about rewarding strivers, and

:03:10.:03:11.

talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging

:03:11.:03:11.

discouraging skivers,

:03:11.:03:12.

talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging skivers, it

:03:12.:03:12.

discouraging skivers, it strike

:03:12.:03:14.

talk about rewarding strivers, and discouraging skivers, it strike as

:03:14.:03:14.

discouraging skivers, it strike as chord.

:03:14.:03:14.

chord. Later

:03:14.:03:14.

discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we

:03:14.:03:15.

chord. Later we will

:03:15.:03:16.

discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we will be

:03:16.:03:16.

chord. Later we will be --

:03:16.:03:16.

discouraging skivers, it strike as chord. Later we will be -- it

:03:16.:03:17.

chord. Later we will be -- it strikes

:03:17.:03:17.

strikes a

:03:17.:03:17.

chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord.

:03:17.:03:18.

strikes a chord. Later

:03:18.:03:18.

chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord. Later we

:03:18.:03:18.

strikes a chord. Later we will

:03:18.:03:19.

chord. Later we will be -- it strikes a chord. Later we will be

:03:19.:03:20.

strikes a chord. Later we will be discussing

:03:20.:03:20.

discussing whether

:03:20.:03:20.

strikes a chord. Later we will be discussing whether the

:03:20.:03:22.

discussing whether the Government's

:03:22.:03:22.

discussing whether the Government's measures

:03:22.:03:23.

measures are

:03:23.:03:23.

discussing whether the Government's measures are a

:03:23.:03:23.

measures are a coherent

:03:23.:03:24.

discussing whether the Government's measures are a coherent response

:03:24.:03:25.

measures are a coherent response to

:03:25.:03:25.

measures are a coherent response to this.

:03:25.:03:25.

this. We

:03:25.:03:25.

measures are a coherent response to this. We have

:03:25.:03:27.

this. We have been

:03:27.:03:27.

measures are a coherent response to this. We have been to

:03:27.:03:27.

this. We have been to Accrington

:03:27.:03:27.

measures are a coherent response to this. We have been to Accrington to

:03:27.:03:27.

this. We have been to Accrington to test

:03:27.:03:28.

test attitudes.

:03:28.:03:32.

test attitudes. P

:03:33.:03:33.

P and

:03:33.:03:33.

test attitudes. P and down

:03:33.:03:34.

P and down this

:03:34.:03:34.

test attitudes. P and down this street,

:03:34.:03:34.

P and down this street, when

:03:34.:03:34.

test attitudes. P and down this street, when one

:03:34.:03:35.

P and down this street, when one --

:03:35.:03:35.

P and down this street, when one -- up

:03:35.:03:35.

up and

:03:35.:03:36.

P and down this street, when one -- up and down

:03:36.:03:36.

up and down this

:03:36.:03:36.

P and down this street, when one -- up and down this street,

:03:36.:03:37.

up and down this street, when

:03:37.:03:37.

P and down this street, when one -- up and down this street, when one

:03:37.:03:37.

up and down this street, when one person

:03:38.:03:38.

person leaves

:03:38.:03:38.

up and down this street, when one person leaves for

:03:38.:03:39.

person leaves for work,

:03:39.:03:39.

up and down this street, when one person leaves for work, they

:03:39.:03:40.

person leaves for work, they see

:03:40.:03:40.

person leaves for work, they see the

:03:40.:03:41.

the curtains

:03:41.:03:41.

person leaves for work, they see the curtains drawn,

:03:41.:03:42.

the curtains drawn, they

:03:42.:03:42.

person leaves for work, they see the curtains drawn, they think

:03:42.:03:42.

the curtains drawn, they think they

:03:42.:03:42.

the curtains drawn, they think they are

:03:42.:03:43.

are off

:03:43.:03:43.

the curtains drawn, they think they are off to

:03:43.:03:43.

are off to make

:03:43.:03:43.

the curtains drawn, they think they are off to make a

:03:43.:03:44.

are off to make a living

:03:44.:03:44.

the curtains drawn, they think they are off to make a living and

:03:44.:03:44.

are off to make a living and behind

:03:44.:03:44.

are off to make a living and behind the

:03:44.:03:44.

the curtains

:03:44.:03:45.

are off to make a living and behind the curtains someone

:03:45.:03:45.

the curtains someone is

:03:45.:03:45.

are off to make a living and behind the curtains someone is making

:03:45.:03:46.

the curtains someone is making a

:03:46.:03:46.

the curtains someone is making a living

:03:46.:03:47.

living off

:03:47.:03:47.

the curtains someone is making a living off them.

:03:47.:03:47.

living off them. It

:03:47.:03:47.

the curtains someone is making a living off them. It is

:03:47.:03:48.

living off them. It is an

:03:48.:03:48.

the curtains someone is making a living off them. It is an image

:03:48.:03:48.

living off them. It is an image George

:03:48.:03:48.

George Osborne

:03:48.:03:49.

living off them. It is an image George Osborne likes

:03:49.:03:49.

George Osborne likes to

:03:49.:03:50.

living off them. It is an image George Osborne likes to paint.

:03:50.:03:50.

George Osborne likes to paint. Whenever

:03:50.:03:51.

Whenever pollsters

:03:51.:03:51.

George Osborne likes to paint. Whenever pollsters test

:03:51.:03:51.

Whenever pollsters test public

:03:51.:03:52.

Whenever pollsters test public attitudes

:03:52.:03:52.

attitudes to

:03:52.:03:53.

Whenever pollsters test public attitudes to welfare

:03:53.:03:53.

attitudes to welfare cuts,

:03:53.:03:54.

Whenever pollsters test public attitudes to welfare cuts, support

:03:54.:03:54.

attitudes to welfare cuts, support for

:03:54.:03:55.

for them

:03:55.:03:55.

attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is

:03:55.:03:55.

for them is usually

:03:56.:03:56.

attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is usually sky

:03:56.:03:56.

for them is usually sky high.

:03:56.:03:56.

attitudes to welfare cuts, support for them is usually sky high. That

:03:56.:03:56.

for them is usually sky high. That is

:03:57.:03:57.

is why

:03:57.:03:57.

for them is usually sky high. That is why the

:03:57.:03:57.

is why the Chancellor

:03:57.:03:58.

for them is usually sky high. That is why the Chancellor mentions

:03:58.:03:58.

is why the Chancellor mentions these

:03:58.:03:58.

these drawn

:03:58.:03:58.

is why the Chancellor mentions these drawn curtains.

:03:58.:03:59.

these drawn curtains. He's

:03:59.:03:59.

is why the Chancellor mentions these drawn curtains. He's trying

:03:59.:03:59.

these drawn curtains. He's trying to

:03:59.:03:59.

to reach

:03:59.:04:00.

these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out

:04:00.:04:00.

to reach out to

:04:00.:04:00.

these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out to many

:04:00.:04:00.

to reach out to many members

:04:00.:04:00.

these drawn curtains. He's trying to reach out to many members of

:04:00.:04:01.

to reach out to many members of the

:04:01.:04:01.

to reach out to many members of the public.

:04:01.:04:01.

public. Just

:04:01.:04:01.

to reach out to many members of the public. Just as

:04:01.:04:02.

public. Just as the

:04:02.:04:02.

to reach out to many members of the public. Just as the reasons

:04:02.:04:02.

public. Just as the reasons for

:04:02.:04:03.

to reach out to many members of the public. Just as the reasons for a

:04:03.:04:03.

public. Just as the reasons for a drawn

:04:03.:04:03.

drawn curtain

:04:03.:04:04.

public. Just as the reasons for a drawn curtain could

:04:04.:04:04.

drawn curtain could be

:04:05.:04:05.

public. Just as the reasons for a drawn curtain could be numerous,

:04:05.:04:06.

drawn curtain could be numerous, public

:04:06.:04:06.

public attitudes

:04:06.:04:06.

drawn curtain could be numerous, public attitudes towards

:04:06.:04:06.

public attitudes towards welfare

:04:06.:04:07.

public attitudes towards welfare are

:04:07.:04:08.

are very

:04:08.:04:08.

public attitudes towards welfare are very complex.

:04:08.:04:10.

are very complex. The

:04:10.:04:11.

public attitudes towards welfare are very complex. The pollster

:04:11.:04:12.

are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori

:04:12.:04:12.

Ipsos-Mori gives

:04:12.:04:12.

are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori gives one

:04:12.:04:12.

Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot

:04:12.:04:13.

are very complex. The pollster Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot of

:04:13.:04:13.

Ipsos-Mori gives one snapshot of public

:04:13.:04:13.

public opinion..

:04:13.:04:23.
:04:23.:04:28.

A

:04:28.:04:28.

A snapshot

:04:28.:04:29.

A snapshot can

:04:29.:04:32.

A snapshot can be misleading, what A snapshot can be misleading, what

:04:32.:04:42.
:04:42.:04:43.

Many more people agreed than Many more people agreed than

:04:43.:04:46.

Many more people agreed than disagreed, that isn't the case.

:04:46.:04:47.

disagreed, that isn't the case. disagreed, that isn't the case.

:04:47.:04:48.

disagreed, that isn't the case. will give a food parcel a couple of

:04:49.:04:50.

will give a food parcel a couple of will give a food parcel a couple of

:04:50.:04:51.

will give a food parcel a couple of days before you get paid. I can do

:04:51.:04:52.

days before you get paid. I can do days before you get paid. I can do

:04:52.:04:54.

bun Friday until you get your bun Friday until you get your

:04:54.:04:55.

bun Friday until you get your benefits. This centre steps in

:04:55.:04:57.

benefits. This centre steps in benefits. This centre steps in

:04:57.:04:59.

where the state retreats. It has where the state retreats. It has

:04:59.:05:00.

where the state retreats. It has done more not less since welfare

:05:00.:05:02.

done more not less since welfare done more not less since welfare

:05:02.:05:03.

cuts have bitten. Years ago the cuts have bitten. Years ago the

:05:03.:05:04.

cuts have bitten. Years ago the people of Accrington would have

:05:04.:05:06.

people of Accrington would have people of Accrington would have

:05:06.:05:06.

people of Accrington would have been busy weaving on one of the

:05:07.:05:09.

been busy weaving on one of the been busy weaving on one of the

:05:09.:05:09.

most critical inventions of the most critical inventions of the

:05:09.:05:12.

Industrial Revolution, the spinning Industrial Revolution, the spinning

:05:12.:05:13.

Industrial Revolution, the spinning Jenny. Now poverty levels are the

:05:13.:05:15.

Jenny. Now poverty levels are the Jenny. Now poverty levels are the

:05:15.:05:16.

highest in the country. The town highest in the country. The town

:05:16.:05:17.

highest in the country. The town has its own system of support.

:05:17.:05:18.

has its own system of support. has its own system of support.

:05:18.:05:19.

has its own system of support. Running the centre, Lucy is at the

:05:19.:05:20.

Running the centre, Lucy is at the interface of those receiving

:05:20.:05:22.

interface of those receiving interface of those receiving

:05:22.:05:24.

benefits and those who might be benefits and those who might be

:05:24.:05:25.

more sceptical. Local communities more sceptical. Local communities

:05:25.:05:26.

are incredibly generous. When are incredibly generous. When

:05:26.:05:27.

are incredibly generous. When are incredibly generous. When

:05:27.:05:27.

people come in and meet some of the people come in and meet some of the

:05:28.:05:29.

people come in and meet some of the people come in and meet some of the

:05:29.:05:30.

people who are going to get the people who are going to get the

:05:30.:05:31.

people who are going to get the help that they have brought, I

:05:31.:05:32.

help that they have brought, I help that they have brought, I

:05:32.:05:34.

think that does help to change think that does help to change

:05:34.:05:35.

think that does help to change people as opinions. I think you

:05:35.:05:37.

people as opinions. I think you people as opinions. I think you

:05:37.:05:39.

realise that people's options are realise that people's options are

:05:40.:05:41.

realise that people's options are realise that people's options are

:05:41.:05:41.

not, they are very Ayalim ited. If not, they are very Ayalim ited. If

:05:41.:05:43.

not, they are very Ayalim ited. If not, they are very Ayalim ited. If

:05:43.:05:44.

you have been brought up in a work you have been brought up in a work

:05:44.:05:45.

you have been brought up in a work you have been brought up in a work

:05:45.:05:46.

-- They are very limited. If you -- They are very limited. If you

:05:46.:05:47.

-- They are very limited. If you have been brought up in the

:05:47.:05:48.

have been brought up in the have been brought up in the

:05:48.:05:49.

have been brought up in the workless house, or been in the care

:05:49.:05:50.

workless house, or been in the care workless house, or been in the care

:05:50.:05:53.

system, your options to then go system, your options to then go

:05:53.:05:54.

system, your options to then go into employment, especially in an

:05:54.:05:56.

into employment, especially in an into employment, especially in an

:05:56.:05:59.

area like Accrington are very area like Accrington are very

:05:59.:06:01.

limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey

:06:01.:06:02.

limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey limited. Another Ipsos-Mori survey

:06:02.:06:03.

shows 92% of people value a welfare shows 92% of people value a welfare

:06:03.:06:05.

shows 92% of people value a welfare shows 92% of people value a welfare

:06:05.:06:07.

state to support those in need. The state to support those in need. The

:06:07.:06:10.

state to support those in need. The same pollster s show that in

:06:10.:06:12.

same pollster s show that in same pollster s show that in

:06:12.:06:13.

201019% of people were worried 201019% of people were worried

:06:13.:06:13.

201019% of people were worried Government would do too little to

:06:13.:06:14.

Government would do too little to Government would do too little to

:06:14.:06:15.

Government would do too little to help people. And it had had risen

:06:15.:06:17.

help people. And it had had risen help people. And it had had risen

:06:17.:06:19.

help people. And it had had risen to a third of respondants. John is

:06:19.:06:21.

to a third of respondants. John is to a third of respondants. John is

:06:21.:06:22.

to a third of respondants. John is 56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia

:06:23.:06:25.

56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia 56 and an avid poetry plan, Sylvia

:06:25.:06:25.

Plath is his absolute favourite. He Plath is his absolute favourite. He

:06:25.:06:26.

Plath is his absolute favourite. He Plath is his absolute favourite. He

:06:26.:06:28.

has never had a job. He did have has never had a job. He did have

:06:28.:06:28.

has never had a job. He did have one when he first left university.

:06:29.:06:29.

one when he first left university. one when he first left university.

:06:29.:06:31.

one when he first left university. He was asked to make one phone call,

:06:31.:06:31.

He was asked to make one phone call, He was asked to make one phone call,

:06:31.:06:35.

He was asked to make one phone call, it took him three days to make it.

:06:35.:06:36.

it took him three days to make it. it took him three days to make it.

:06:37.:06:37.

it took him three days to make it. John never returned to work, he was

:06:37.:06:40.

John never returned to work, he was diagnosed with anxiety and

:06:40.:06:41.

diagnosed with anxiety and eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm

:06:41.:06:43.

eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm

:06:43.:06:44.

eventually schizophrenia, Malcolm is a volunteer buddy to John. You

:06:44.:06:45.

is a volunteer buddy to John. You is a volunteer buddy to John. You

:06:45.:06:47.

build your life up on these build your life up on these

:06:47.:06:48.

build your life up on these benefits doing certain things, your

:06:48.:06:50.

benefits doing certain things, your benefits doing certain things, your

:06:50.:06:51.

bills and things like that, and bills and things like that, and

:06:51.:06:54.

bills and things like that, and bills and things like that, and

:06:54.:06:56.

then if they remove or change that then if they remove or change that

:06:56.:06:57.

then if they remove or change that benefit then all that structure is

:06:57.:07:00.

benefit then all that structure is benefit then all that structure is

:07:00.:07:01.

gone. People like me routine and gone. People like me routine and

:07:01.:07:02.

gone. People like me routine and such are very important. It is

:07:02.:07:03.

such are very important. It is such are very important. It is

:07:03.:07:04.

something that you have been something that you have been

:07:04.:07:05.

something that you have been something that you have been

:07:05.:07:06.

worried about for a while. You can worried about for a while. You can

:07:06.:07:08.

worried about for a while. You can worried about for a while. You can

:07:08.:07:08.

see a broken leg and motor neurone see a broken leg and motor neurone

:07:08.:07:11.

see a broken leg and motor neurone disease, but not a mental illness.

:07:11.:07:13.

disease, but not a mental illness. disease, but not a mental illness.

:07:13.:07:16.

A mental illness is a progressive A mental illness is a progressive

:07:16.:07:16.

A mental illness is a progressive thing, and a different thing every

:07:16.:07:20.

thing, and a different thing every thing, and a different thing every

:07:20.:07:22.

thing, and a different thing every day. How on earth can anybody make

:07:22.:07:23.

day. How on earth can anybody make day. How on earth can anybody make

:07:23.:07:24.

an assessment within 30-minutes, on an assessment within 30-minutes, on

:07:24.:07:28.

one particular day. one particular day.

:07:28.:07:29.

one particular day. one particular day.

:07:29.:07:30.

But even in the face of stories But even in the face of stories

:07:30.:07:31.

But even in the face of stories But even in the face of stories

:07:31.:07:32.

such as John's, as a nation we are such as John's, as a nation we are

:07:32.:07:34.

such as John's, as a nation we are such as John's, as a nation we are

:07:34.:07:35.

very hard. And we have got harder. very hard. And we have got harder.

:07:35.:07:36.

very hard. And we have got harder. very hard. And we have got harder.

:07:36.:07:37.

It is a very profound set of trends It is a very profound set of trends

:07:37.:07:39.

It is a very profound set of trends It is a very profound set of trends

:07:39.:07:40.

we are seeing in terms of hardening we are seeing in terms of hardening

:07:40.:07:42.

attitudes towards welfare and attitudes towards welfare and

:07:42.:07:43.

attitudes towards welfare and welfare benefits. For example many

:07:43.:07:44.

welfare benefits. For example many welfare benefits. For example many

:07:45.:07:45.

more people believe, compared with more people believe, compared with

:07:45.:07:46.

more people believe, compared with more people believe, compared with

:07:46.:07:48.

10 or 20 years ago that benefits 10 or 20 years ago that benefits

:07:48.:07:49.

10 or 20 years ago that benefits are too high, and discourage people

:07:49.:07:50.

are too high, and discourage people are too high, and discourage people

:07:51.:07:51.

from finding work. What is from finding work. What is

:07:51.:07:52.

from finding work. What is interesting is we are certainly not

:07:52.:07:54.

interesting is we are certainly not interesting is we are certainly not

:07:54.:07:55.

seeing a softening of attitudes in seeing a softening of attitudes in

:07:55.:07:56.

seeing a softening of attitudes in the recent recession. In previous

:07:56.:07:57.

the recent recession. In previous the recent recession. In previous

:07:57.:07:58.

recessions we have very much seen recessions we have very much seen

:07:58.:08:00.

the softening of attitudes. the softening of attitudes.

:08:00.:08:01.

the softening of attitudes. And there's been this hardening,

:08:02.:08:02.

And there's been this hardening, And there's been this hardening,

:08:02.:08:03.

despite more and more people having despite more and more people having

:08:03.:08:05.

despite more and more people having been brought into the welfare state

:08:05.:08:06.

been brought into the welfare state been brought into the welfare state

:08:06.:08:07.

through the expansion of tax through the expansion of tax

:08:07.:08:07.

through the expansion of tax credits, and so more and more

:08:07.:08:09.

credits, and so more and more credits, and so more and more

:08:09.:08:09.

credits, and so more and more people are set to lose when the

:08:09.:08:12.

cuts bite. cuts bite.

:08:13.:08:15.

cuts bite. When interviewing 150 families, one

:08:15.:08:16.

When interviewing 150 families, one sociologist found a peculiar

:08:16.:08:19.

sociologist found a peculiar sociologist found a peculiar

:08:19.:08:20.

phenomenon. I was working for phenomenon. I was working for

:08:20.:08:21.

phenomenon. I was working for Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to

:08:21.:08:23.

Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to Joseph Rowntree's Housing Trust, to

:08:23.:08:24.

see which tenants would be affected see which tenants would be affected

:08:24.:08:25.

see which tenants would be affected by welfare reform, and who was

:08:25.:08:26.

by welfare reform, and who was by welfare reform, and who was

:08:26.:08:28.

likely to default on their rent likely to default on their rent

:08:28.:08:29.

likely to default on their rent payments. In the course of the

:08:30.:08:30.

payments. In the course of the payments. In the course of the

:08:30.:08:32.

study we found out what other study we found out what other

:08:32.:08:33.

study we found out what other benefits they were on, and what

:08:33.:08:34.

benefits they were on, and what benefits they were on, and what

:08:35.:08:35.

their awareness was of welfare their awareness was of welfare

:08:35.:08:36.

their awareness was of welfare reform. What really surprised me

:08:36.:08:37.

reform. What really surprised me reform. What really surprised me

:08:37.:08:38.

reform. What really surprised me was the fact that lots of people

:08:38.:08:40.

was the fact that lots of people was the fact that lots of people

:08:40.:08:42.

who were on multiple benefits, they who were on multiple benefits, they

:08:42.:08:43.

were receiving housing benefit, were receiving housing benefit,

:08:43.:08:45.

were receiving housing benefit, council tax benefit, various things,

:08:45.:08:47.

council tax benefit, various things, resented other people receiving

:08:47.:08:48.

resented other people receiving resented other people receiving

:08:48.:08:51.

benefits. They thought that only benefits. They thought that only

:08:51.:08:52.

benefits. They thought that only they should get benefits! When the

:08:52.:08:54.

they should get benefits! When the they should get benefits! When the

:08:54.:08:55.

camp chairman recently produced a camp chairman recently produced a

:08:56.:08:56.

camp chairman recently produced a poster, lambasting those out of

:08:56.:09:00.

poster, lambasting those out of poster, lambasting those out of

:09:00.:09:02.

work as "slobs", he was roundly work as "slobs", he was roundly

:09:02.:09:03.

work as "slobs", he was roundly criticised behind the scenes by

:09:03.:09:04.

criticised behind the scenes by Conservative colleagues, and was

:09:04.:09:05.

Conservative colleagues, and was Conservative colleagues, and was

:09:05.:09:06.

thought to have admitted he thought to have admitted he

:09:06.:09:07.

thought to have admitted he probably went too far. The

:09:07.:09:07.

probably went too far. The Conservatives think they have

:09:07.:09:08.

Conservatives think they have Conservatives think they have

:09:08.:09:09.

public opinion on their side when public opinion on their side when

:09:09.:09:10.

public opinion on their side when public opinion on their side when

:09:10.:09:11.

they are cutting benefits out of a they are cutting benefits out of a

:09:11.:09:13.

they are cutting benefits out of a sense of duety. But that public

:09:13.:09:15.

sense of duety. But that public sense of duety. But that public

:09:15.:09:16.

opinion can -- duty. But that opinion can -- duty. But that

:09:16.:09:17.

opinion can -- duty. But that public opinion can flip very

:09:18.:09:19.

public opinion can flip very public opinion can flip very

:09:19.:09:21.

public opinion can flip very quickly if they get any sign of

:09:21.:09:24.

quickly if they get any sign of quickly if they get any sign of

:09:24.:09:25.

relish. Linda is from Hind Homes, relish. Linda is from Hind Homes,

:09:25.:09:26.

relish. Linda is from Hind Homes, relish. Linda is from Hind Homes,

:09:26.:09:30.

and has come to meet one of the and has come to meet one of the

:09:30.:09:31.

and has come to meet one of the 3,000 tenants, some of whom will

:09:31.:09:33.

3,000 tenants, some of whom will 3,000 tenants, some of whom will

:09:33.:09:35.

lose out with the benefit changes. lose out with the benefit changes.

:09:35.:09:37.

lose out with the benefit changes. The Government has promised a

:09:38.:09:40.

The Government has promised a The Government has promised a

:09:40.:09:41.

hardship fund to help these people. hardship fund to help these people.

:09:41.:09:42.

hardship fund to help these people. hardship fund to help these people.

:09:42.:09:43.

We have heard you will be charged We have heard you will be charged

:09:43.:09:45.

We have heard you will be charged �12 for the extra bedroom. Linda

:09:45.:09:49.

�12 for the extra bedroom. Linda �12 for the extra bedroom. Linda

:09:49.:09:50.

knows public opinion is finely knows public opinion is finely

:09:50.:09:51.

knows public opinion is finely balanced for many reasons. Many

:09:51.:09:52.

balanced for many reasons. Many balanced for many reasons. Many

:09:52.:09:52.

recipients of benefits are in work recipients of benefits are in work

:09:53.:09:53.

recipients of benefits are in work recipients of benefits are in work

:09:53.:09:54.

as well as being out of work. as well as being out of work.

:09:54.:09:55.

as well as being out of work. as well as being out of work.

:09:55.:09:56.

deal with a lot of people who in deal with a lot of people who in

:09:56.:09:58.

deal with a lot of people who in deal with a lot of people who in

:09:58.:09:59.

this area, due to the decline in this area, due to the decline in

:09:59.:09:59.

the manufacturing industry, there the manufacturing industry, there

:09:59.:10:01.

the manufacturing industry, there the manufacturing industry, there

:10:01.:10:04.

is a lot of people working in the is a lot of people working in the

:10:04.:10:06.

is a lot of people working in the retail industry. It is quite low

:10:06.:10:10.

retail industry. It is quite low retail industry. It is quite low

:10:10.:10:11.

incomes, minimum wage. They need incomes, minimum wage. They need

:10:11.:10:13.

incomes, minimum wage. They need help with their rent, they are

:10:13.:10:14.

help with their rent, they are help with their rent, they are

:10:14.:10:15.

still able to claim housing benefit. still able to claim housing benefit.

:10:15.:10:16.

still able to claim housing benefit. still able to claim housing benefit.

:10:16.:10:17.

The bedroom tax will be 14% of the The bedroom tax will be 14% of the

:10:17.:10:18.

The bedroom tax will be 14% of the The bedroom tax will be 14% of the

:10:18.:10:19.

rent, not how much benefit they get. rent, not how much benefit they get.

:10:19.:10:20.

rent, not how much benefit they get. rent, not how much benefit they get.

:10:20.:10:21.

In some cases they will lose all In some cases they will lose all

:10:21.:10:22.

In some cases they will lose all their housing benefit and have to

:10:22.:10:23.

their housing benefit and have to their housing benefit and have to

:10:23.:10:24.

their housing benefit and have to meet all the rent. Which on a low

:10:24.:10:25.

meet all the rent. Which on a low meet all the rent. Which on a low

:10:26.:10:26.

income, they are really going to income, they are really going to

:10:26.:10:28.

income, they are really going to struggle to make ends meet.

:10:28.:10:30.

struggle to make ends meet. struggle to make ends meet.

:10:30.:10:32.

Back at the centre, some solutions Back at the centre, some solutions

:10:32.:10:33.

Back at the centre, some solutions become discernable. John was in

:10:33.:10:33.

become discernable. John was in become discernable. John was in

:10:34.:10:34.

become discernable. John was in work all his adult life, but a year

:10:34.:10:36.

work all his adult life, but a year work all his adult life, but a year

:10:36.:10:37.

work all his adult life, but a year ago he lost his job, he hasn't had

:10:37.:10:38.

ago he lost his job, he hasn't had ago he lost his job, he hasn't had

:10:38.:10:39.

ago he lost his job, he hasn't had one since. He would like welfare to

:10:39.:10:39.

one since. He would like welfare to one since. He would like welfare to

:10:39.:10:42.

one since. He would like welfare to reflect how much you have paid in.

:10:42.:10:43.

reflect how much you have paid in. reflect how much you have paid in.

:10:43.:10:45.

I think personally they should pay I think personally they should pay

:10:45.:10:47.

I think personally they should pay I think personally they should pay

:10:47.:10:48.

someone like me, I'm 59 years old, someone like me, I'm 59 years old,

:10:48.:10:49.

someone like me, I'm 59 years old, someone like me, I'm 59 years old,

:10:49.:10:51.

I have get more money than somebody I have get more money than somebody

:10:51.:10:52.

I have get more money than somebody who has never worked. Because I

:10:52.:10:53.

who has never worked. Because I who has never worked. Because I

:10:53.:10:54.

who has never worked. Because I have paid my tax and insurance all

:10:54.:10:55.

have paid my tax and insurance all have paid my tax and insurance all

:10:55.:10:56.

that time. You have contributed all that time. You have contributed all

:10:56.:10:57.

that time. You have contributed all that time. You have contributed all

:10:57.:10:58.

your life. It is all like those who your life. It is all like those who

:10:58.:10:59.

your life. It is all like those who your life. It is all like those who

:10:59.:11:00.

have up there and seeing what they have up there and seeing what they

:11:00.:11:01.

have up there and seeing what they have up there and seeing what they

:11:01.:11:02.

can do and they try doing it and can do and they try doing it and

:11:02.:11:04.

can do and they try doing it and living on it, they wouldn't manage,

:11:04.:11:06.

living on it, they wouldn't manage, they couldn't survive.

:11:06.:11:08.

they couldn't survive. they couldn't survive.

:11:08.:11:09.

When asked to choose one criterian When asked to choose one criterian

:11:09.:11:11.

When asked to choose one criterian for gauging whether people should

:11:11.:11:12.

for gauging whether people should for gauging whether people should

:11:12.:11:14.

obtain benefit, nearly half of all obtain benefit, nearly half of all

:11:14.:11:15.

obtain benefit, nearly half of all respondants said it should be based

:11:15.:11:17.

respondants said it should be based on contribution, through years

:11:17.:11:20.

on contribution, through years on contribution, through years

:11:20.:11:21.

worked or care provided. 24% worked or care provided. 24%

:11:21.:11:22.

worked or care provided. 24% thought need, 16% thought it should

:11:22.:11:24.

thought need, 16% thought it should thought need, 16% thought it should

:11:24.:11:26.

go to everyone, regardless of need or contribution.

:11:27.:11:28.

or contribution. or contribution.

:11:28.:11:29.

Research shows young people hold Research shows young people hold

:11:29.:11:32.

Research shows young people hold even more sceptical views. In the

:11:32.:11:33.

even more sceptical views. In the even more sceptical views. In the

:11:33.:11:34.

future experts agree there will future experts agree there will

:11:34.:11:35.

future experts agree there will probably need to be a new

:11:35.:11:36.

probably need to be a new probably need to be a new

:11:36.:11:37.

settlement, if support for the settlement, if support for the

:11:37.:11:39.

settlement, if support for the welfare state is to be maintained.

:11:40.:11:41.

welfare state is to be maintained. More immediately ministers are

:11:41.:11:43.

More immediately ministers are More immediately ministers are

:11:43.:11:45.

setting about finding more cuts to setting about finding more cuts to

:11:45.:11:46.

setting about finding more cuts to the welfare budget, safe that

:11:46.:11:47.

the welfare budget, safe that the welfare budget, safe that

:11:47.:11:49.

public opinion is on their side, public opinion is on their side,

:11:49.:11:50.

public opinion is on their side, public opinion is on their side,

:11:50.:11:52.

but if it shifts, it will be a but if it shifts, it will be a

:11:52.:11:54.

fiercesome opponent. The question fiercesome opponent. The question

:11:54.:11:55.

fiercesome opponent. The question is have attitudes changed, or are

:11:55.:11:57.

is have attitudes changed, or are is have attitudes changed, or are

:11:57.:11:58.

politicians catching up with public politicians catching up with public

:11:58.:11:59.

politicians catching up with public opinion. She have James Bartholemew,

:12:00.:12:00.

opinion. She have James Bartholemew, opinion. She have James Bartholemew,

:12:00.:12:02.

author of The Welfare State We're author of The Welfare State We're

:12:02.:12:03.

author of The Welfare State We're In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The

:12:03.:12:03.

In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The In, Kate Pickett, who wrote The

:12:03.:12:04.

Spirit Level: Why Equality is Spirit Level: Why Equality is

:12:04.:12:07.

Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley

:12:07.:12:07.

Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley Better for Everyone. Peter Lilley

:12:07.:12:08.

who was Secretary of State for who was Secretary of State for

:12:08.:12:09.

who was Secretary of State for Social Security in the last

:12:09.:12:10.

Social Security in the last Conservative Government. And Kate

:12:10.:12:13.

Conservative Government. And Kate Conservative Government. And Kate

:12:13.:12:14.

Green, the Labour spokesperson on Green, the Labour spokesperson on

:12:14.:12:16.

Green, the Labour spokesperson on equality, and former head of the

:12:16.:12:17.

equality, and former head of the equality, and former head of the

:12:17.:12:18.

Child Poverty Action Group. Peter Child Poverty Action Group. Peter

:12:18.:12:19.

Child Poverty Action Group. Peter Child Poverty Action Group. Peter

:12:19.:12:19.

Lilley, can I ask you, when you Lilley, can I ask you, when you

:12:19.:12:20.

Lilley, can I ask you, when you were Secretary of State in this

:12:20.:12:22.

were Secretary of State in this were Secretary of State in this

:12:22.:12:22.

area, you were struggling against area, you were struggling against

:12:22.:12:24.

area, you were struggling against opposition to bring in benefit

:12:24.:12:25.

opposition to bring in benefit opposition to bring in benefit

:12:25.:12:27.

changes. Do you think attitudes changes. Do you think attitudes

:12:27.:12:27.

changes. Do you think attitudes changes. Do you think attitudes

:12:28.:12:28.

have changed? I wasn't, I had broad have changed? I wasn't, I had broad

:12:28.:12:29.

have changed? I wasn't, I had broad public support. You don't think

:12:29.:12:31.

public support. You don't think public support. You don't think

:12:31.:12:31.

attitudes have changed? They have attitudes have changed? They have

:12:31.:12:32.

attitudes have changed? They have change, they have hardened a bit.

:12:32.:12:34.

change, they have hardened a bit. change, they have hardened a bit.

:12:34.:12:36.

What has mainly happened is the What has mainly happened is the

:12:36.:12:38.

liberal intelligenceia have caught liberal intelligenceia have caught

:12:38.:12:40.

liberal intelligenceia have caught up with ordinary working people. I

:12:40.:12:42.

up with ordinary working people. I found most people, particularly

:12:42.:12:43.

found most people, particularly found most people, particularly

:12:43.:12:52.

found most people, particularly those on low incomes wanted to see

:12:52.:12:53.

those on low incomes wanted to see those on low incomes wanted to see

:12:53.:12:54.

those on low incomes wanted to see the safety net kept so if they fell

:12:54.:12:56.

the safety net kept so if they fell the safety net kept so if they fell

:12:56.:12:57.

on hard times, but they wanted on hard times, but they wanted

:12:57.:12:58.

on hard times, but they wanted conditions applied that you didn't

:12:58.:12:59.

conditions applied that you didn't conditions applied that you didn't

:12:59.:13:02.

get them until you were genuinely get them until you were genuinely

:13:02.:13:03.

get them until you were genuinely needing them. I had tremendous

:13:03.:13:04.

needing them. I had tremendous needing them. I had tremendous

:13:04.:13:06.

support and not problem at all. support and not problem at all.

:13:06.:13:07.

support and not problem at all. Constantly told I was being brave,

:13:07.:13:07.

Constantly told I was being brave, Constantly told I was being brave,

:13:07.:13:08.

Constantly told I was being brave, it didn't feel like. That when I

:13:08.:13:11.

it didn't feel like. That when I it didn't feel like. That when I

:13:11.:13:11.

walked through the streets of walked through the streets of

:13:11.:13:13.

walked through the streets of Hackney and Islington, when I went

:13:13.:13:14.

Hackney and Islington, when I went Hackney and Islington, when I went

:13:14.:13:15.

Hackney and Islington, when I went there people asked if I was Lilley

:13:15.:13:16.

there people asked if I was Lilley there people asked if I was Lilley

:13:16.:13:17.

there people asked if I was Lilley there people asked if I was Lilley

:13:17.:13:18.

and to keep it up. It is true that and to keep it up. It is true that

:13:18.:13:19.

and to keep it up. It is true that attitudes have been hardening over

:13:19.:13:21.

attitudes have been hardening over attitudes have been hardening over

:13:21.:13:22.

the last two decades, equally the the last two decades, equally the

:13:22.:13:23.

the last two decades, equally the conditions for benefit have been

:13:23.:13:24.

conditions for benefit have been tightened up quite considerably

:13:24.:13:26.

tightened up quite considerably tightened up quite considerably

:13:26.:13:27.

tightened up quite considerably over that period as well. And for

:13:27.:13:28.

over that period as well. And for over that period as well. And for

:13:28.:13:28.

example lone parents are being example lone parents are being

:13:28.:13:30.

example lone parents are being expected work as their children get

:13:30.:13:32.

expected work as their children get expected work as their children get

:13:32.:13:33.

younger and younger, and we have younger and younger, and we have

:13:33.:13:34.

younger and younger, and we have younger and younger, and we have

:13:34.:13:36.

seen new tests for people on the seen new tests for people on the

:13:36.:13:37.

seen new tests for people on the disability benefits who are also

:13:37.:13:39.

disability benefits who are also disability benefits who are also

:13:39.:13:41.

now expected to be assessed as now expected to be assessed as

:13:41.:13:42.

now expected to be assessed as available for work. What is driving

:13:42.:13:43.

available for work. What is driving available for work. What is driving

:13:44.:13:44.

available for work. What is driving it? There is less sympathy even as

:13:44.:13:45.

it? There is less sympathy even as it? There is less sympathy even as

:13:45.:13:47.

the system is getting tougher. A the system is getting tougher. A

:13:47.:13:49.

the system is getting tougher. A the system is getting tougher. A

:13:49.:13:50.

lot of people still think not tough lot of people still think not tough

:13:50.:13:52.

enough? Absolutely, ratchetting up enough? Absolutely, ratchetting up

:13:52.:13:52.

the conditionality doesn't appear the conditionality doesn't appear

:13:52.:13:54.

the conditionality doesn't appear to be shifting public opinion in

:13:54.:13:55.

to be shifting public opinion in to be shifting public opinion in

:13:55.:13:56.

the way that you might expect. the way that you might expect.

:13:56.:13:58.

the way that you might expect. Building trust in the system either.

:13:58.:14:00.

Building trust in the system either. Building trust in the system either.

:14:00.:14:01.

I think that's partly because we I think that's partly because we

:14:01.:14:02.

I think that's partly because we have a rhetoric, a political

:14:02.:14:03.

have a rhetoric, a political have a rhetoric, a political

:14:03.:14:05.

rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media

:14:05.:14:06.

rhetoric, a rhetoric in the media has very, very hostile to benefits

:14:06.:14:10.

has very, very hostile to benefits receipt. That is undoubtedly

:14:10.:14:11.

receipt. That is undoubtedly receipt. That is undoubtedly

:14:11.:14:12.

creating a climate of stigma and creating a climate of stigma and

:14:12.:14:13.

suspicion. People's understanding suspicion. People's understanding

:14:13.:14:14.

suspicion. People's understanding suspicion. People's understanding

:14:14.:14:16.

of the benefits system is as a of the benefits system is as a

:14:16.:14:18.

result very, very misinformed. result very, very misinformed.

:14:18.:14:18.

result very, very misinformed. James Bartholemew, you saw in that

:14:18.:14:20.

James Bartholemew, you saw in that James Bartholemew, you saw in that

:14:20.:14:21.

James Bartholemew, you saw in that piece that you can get a conflict

:14:21.:14:22.

piece that you can get a conflict here, because people are

:14:22.:14:23.

here, because people are here, because people are

:14:23.:14:24.

complaining about benefit, but they complaining about benefit, but they

:14:24.:14:25.

complaining about benefit, but they still want to get their own

:14:25.:14:26.

still want to get their own still want to get their own

:14:26.:14:27.

still want to get their own benefits. How real do you think the

:14:27.:14:28.

benefits. How real do you think the benefits. How real do you think the

:14:28.:14:29.

change in attitude is towards change in attitude is towards

:14:29.:14:31.

change in attitude is towards welfare, when it comes to cutting

:14:31.:14:32.

welfare, when it comes to cutting welfare, when it comes to cutting

:14:32.:14:33.

benefits as the Government is, that benefits as the Government is, that

:14:33.:14:34.

benefits as the Government is, that benefits as the Government is, that

:14:35.:14:35.

actually affect a lot of people? actually affect a lot of people?

:14:35.:14:36.

actually affect a lot of people? actually affect a lot of people?

:14:37.:14:38.

think it is a very real change. And think it is a very real change. And

:14:38.:14:39.

think it is a very real change. And it is like watching something

:14:39.:14:41.

it is like watching something it is like watching something

:14:41.:14:42.

happening in slow motion. People happening in slow motion. People

:14:42.:14:43.

happening in slow motion. People happening in slow motion. People

:14:43.:14:44.

are waking up to the fact that the are waking up to the fact that the

:14:45.:14:47.

welfare state has become welfare state has become

:14:47.:14:48.

welfare state has become dysfuntional. And that we are in

:14:48.:14:49.

dysfuntional. And that we are in dysfuntional. And that we are in

:14:49.:14:51.

situation now where people who the situation now where people who the

:14:51.:14:52.

situation now where people who the Government defiance as being in

:14:52.:14:54.

Government defiance as being in poverty, it is simultaneously

:14:54.:14:57.

poverty, it is simultaneously poverty, it is simultaneously

:14:57.:14:58.

charging them income tax. They can charging them income tax. They can

:14:58.:14:59.

charging them income tax. They can see this is absurd. They are

:14:59.:15:00.

see this is absurd. They are see this is absurd. They are

:15:00.:15:01.

outraged when they are in a outraged when they are in a

:15:01.:15:02.

outraged when they are in a position where they are not much

:15:02.:15:03.

position where they are not much position where they are not much

:15:03.:15:04.

position where they are not much better off than somebody who is not

:15:04.:15:05.

better off than somebody who is not better off than somebody who is not

:15:05.:15:07.

working, and who they believe is working, and who they believe is

:15:07.:15:09.

working, and who they believe is working, and who they believe is

:15:09.:15:10.

not trying to work. It is causing not trying to work. It is causing

:15:10.:15:10.

not trying to work. It is causing not trying to work. It is causing

:15:10.:15:12.

outrage. It doesn't need to be in outrage. It doesn't need to be in

:15:12.:15:13.

outrage. It doesn't need to be in the media because people who are

:15:13.:15:14.

the media because people who are the media because people who are

:15:14.:15:16.

directly seeing it among people who directly seeing it among people who

:15:16.:15:16.

directly seeing it among people who directly seeing it among people who

:15:16.:15:17.

live near them. It is also not much live near them. It is also not much

:15:17.:15:18.

live near them. It is also not much live near them. It is also not much

:15:18.:15:19.

in some of the media. You wouldn't in some of the media. You wouldn't

:15:19.:15:20.

in some of the media. You wouldn't get much about fraud, for example,

:15:20.:15:22.

get much about fraud, for example, get much about fraud, for example,

:15:22.:15:24.

in the Guardian. It depends which in the Guardian. It depends which

:15:24.:15:25.

in the Guardian. It depends which in the Guardian. It depends which

:15:25.:15:25.

media you are reading. The BBC does media you are reading. The BBC does

:15:25.:15:27.

media you are reading. The BBC does media you are reading. The BBC does

:15:27.:15:27.

not cover lots of fraud stories in not cover lots of fraud stories in

:15:28.:15:28.

not cover lots of fraud stories in its news broadcasts, not saying it

:15:28.:15:29.

its news broadcasts, not saying it its news broadcasts, not saying it

:15:30.:15:30.

its news broadcasts, not saying it should. It is not all over the

:15:30.:15:33.

should. It is not all over the should. It is not all over the

:15:33.:15:34.

should. It is not all over the media by any means. Kate Pickett do

:15:34.:15:35.

media by any means. Kate Pickett do media by any means. Kate Pickett do

:15:35.:15:36.

media by any means. Kate Pickett do you think there has been a change?

:15:36.:15:37.

you think there has been a change? you think there has been a change?

:15:37.:15:39.

you think there has been a change? I see it all the time. Although we

:15:39.:15:41.

I see it all the time. Although we I see it all the time. Although we

:15:41.:15:42.

talk about the financial crisis, talk about the financial crisis,

:15:42.:15:43.

talk about the financial crisis, and people blaming the bankers,

:15:43.:15:44.

and people blaming the bankers, and people blaming the bankers,

:15:44.:15:46.

when you get people together, they when you get people together, they

:15:46.:15:47.

when you get people together, they when you get people together, they

:15:47.:15:48.

tend to get off the subject of the tend to get off the subject of the

:15:48.:15:49.

tend to get off the subject of the bankers quickly and start talking

:15:49.:15:51.

bankers quickly and start talking bankers quickly and start talking

:15:51.:15:52.

bankers quickly and start talking about the person next door being on

:15:52.:15:53.

about the person next door being on about the person next door being on

:15:53.:15:54.

benefits who shouldn't be on benefits who shouldn't be on

:15:54.:15:55.

benefits who shouldn't be on benefits and the unfairness of the

:15:55.:15:56.

benefits and the unfairness of the benefits and the unfairness of the

:15:56.:15:57.

benefits and the unfairness of the system. This has come out of the

:15:57.:15:58.

system. This has come out of the system. This has come out of the

:15:58.:15:59.

financial crisis? Kate Green is financial crisis? Kate Green is

:15:59.:16:00.

financial crisis? Kate Green is right, the evidence has shown that

:16:00.:16:01.

right, the evidence has shown that right, the evidence has shown that

:16:01.:16:03.

attitudes have hardened a lot over attitudes have hardened a lot over

:16:03.:16:04.

attitudes have hardened a lot over attitudes have hardened a lot over

:16:04.:16:05.

the past couple of decade. And I the past couple of decade. And I

:16:05.:16:06.

the past couple of decade. And I think she's also right that the

:16:06.:16:07.

think she's also right that the think she's also right that the

:16:07.:16:09.

think she's also right that the media have a role to play there. I

:16:09.:16:11.

media have a role to play there. I media have a role to play there. I

:16:11.:16:12.

would also draw attention to the would also draw attention to the

:16:12.:16:13.

would also draw attention to the rise in inequality over that time

:16:13.:16:14.

rise in inequality over that time rise in inequality over that time

:16:14.:16:16.

period. What happens when the gap period. What happens when the gap

:16:16.:16:20.

period. What happens when the gap between rich and poor gets bigger.

:16:20.:16:21.

between rich and poor gets bigger. between rich and poor gets bigger.

:16:21.:16:22.

between rich and poor gets bigger. What happens is we lose a sense of

:16:22.:16:23.

What happens is we lose a sense of What happens is we lose a sense of

:16:23.:16:25.

social cohesion and trust in each social cohesion and trust in each

:16:25.:16:26.

social cohesion and trust in each other. Attitudes harden, we see a

:16:26.:16:27.

other. Attitudes harden, we see a other. Attitudes harden, we see a

:16:27.:16:28.

lot more downward prejudice. This lot more downward prejudice. This

:16:28.:16:30.

lot more downward prejudice. This lot more downward prejudice. This

:16:30.:16:31.

change in mood is also a mood change in mood is also a mood

:16:31.:16:32.

against redistribution, there against redistribution, there

:16:32.:16:34.

against redistribution, there against redistribution, there

:16:34.:16:35.

doesn't seem to be a reaction to doesn't seem to be a reaction to

:16:35.:16:36.

doesn't seem to be a reaction to that which is people? Surveys show

:16:36.:16:37.

that which is people? Surveys show that which is people? Surveys show

:16:37.:16:39.

year after year that actually year after year that actually

:16:39.:16:41.

year after year that actually people are in favour of

:16:41.:16:42.

people are in favour of people are in favour of

:16:42.:16:43.

redistribution. At the same time redistribution. At the same time

:16:43.:16:45.

redistribution. At the same time they can hold attitudes towards the

:16:45.:16:48.

they can hold attitudes towards the they can hold attitudes towards the

:16:48.:16:50.

poor that are very disheartening. I poor that are very disheartening. I

:16:50.:16:51.

poor that are very disheartening. I think this rising hardened attitude

:16:51.:16:52.

think this rising hardened attitude think this rising hardened attitude

:16:52.:16:53.

is something that the Government is something that the Government

:16:53.:16:55.

is something that the Government should be trying to tackle theself.

:16:55.:16:56.

should be trying to tackle theself. should be trying to tackle theself.

:16:56.:16:57.

should be trying to tackle theself. I think they say they are tackling

:16:57.:16:58.

I think they say they are tackling I think they say they are tackling

:16:58.:16:59.

it by changing the incentives of it by changing the incentives of

:16:59.:17:00.

it by changing the incentives of the system. Do you think people

:17:00.:17:00.

the system. Do you think people the system. Do you think people

:17:01.:17:02.

will change their attitude if it will change their attitude if it

:17:02.:17:04.

will change their attitude if it looks like a fairer system, if

:17:04.:17:05.

looks like a fairer system, if looks like a fairer system, if

:17:05.:17:06.

Universal Credit seems to be fairer, Universal Credit seems to be fairer,

:17:06.:17:08.

Universal Credit seems to be fairer, rewarding work? They are not going

:17:08.:17:09.

rewarding work? They are not going rewarding work? They are not going

:17:09.:17:11.

to change their attitude if the to change their attitude if the

:17:11.:17:12.

to change their attitude if the attitude is wanting benefit to go

:17:12.:17:13.

attitude is wanting benefit to go attitude is wanting benefit to go

:17:13.:17:14.

attitude is wanting benefit to go to those who genuinely need it and

:17:14.:17:16.

to those who genuinely need it and to those who genuinely need it and

:17:16.:17:17.

deserve it and have contributed to deserve it and have contributed to

:17:17.:17:18.

deserve it and have contributed to it, and being reluctant to pay

:17:18.:17:19.

it, and being reluctant to pay it, and being reluctant to pay

:17:19.:17:21.

benefit to those who they feel benefit to those who they feel

:17:21.:17:24.

benefit to those who they feel could work, should work and are

:17:24.:17:25.

could work, should work and are overclaiming or shouldn't be

:17:25.:17:26.

overclaiming or shouldn't be overclaiming or shouldn't be

:17:26.:17:27.

overclaiming or shouldn't be entitled to claim at all. As Kate

:17:27.:17:28.

entitled to claim at all. As Kate entitled to claim at all. As Kate

:17:28.:17:29.

entitled to claim at all. As Kate Green says, it doesn't seem to have

:17:29.:17:31.

Green says, it doesn't seem to have Green says, it doesn't seem to have

:17:31.:17:32.

changed so far, increasing the changed so far, increasing the

:17:32.:17:33.

conditions, making it tougher, conditions, making it tougher,

:17:33.:17:34.

conditions, making it tougher, doesn't seem to have changed?

:17:34.:17:36.

doesn't seem to have changed? shouldn't change those attitudes.

:17:36.:17:38.

shouldn't change those attitudes. shouldn't change those attitudes.

:17:38.:17:39.

The conditions are now responding The conditions are now responding

:17:39.:17:39.

The conditions are now responding to public opinion. The idea that

:17:39.:17:41.

to public opinion. The idea that to public opinion. The idea that

:17:41.:17:43.

public opinion has been moulded by public opinion has been moulded by

:17:43.:17:43.

public opinion has been moulded by public opinion has been moulded by

:17:43.:17:45.

the media, it is always a mistake. the media, it is always a mistake.

:17:45.:17:46.

the media, it is always a mistake. the media, it is always a mistake.

:17:46.:17:47.

I have been guilty of it myself, I have been guilty of it myself,

:17:47.:17:48.

I have been guilty of it myself, I have been guilty of it myself,

:17:48.:17:49.

when we blame the media for public when we blame the media for public

:17:49.:17:50.

when we blame the media for public opinion. Public opinion tends to

:17:50.:17:52.

opinion. Public opinion tends to opinion. Public opinion tends to

:17:52.:17:54.

influence what the media say rather influence what the media say rather

:17:54.:17:55.

influence what the media say rather influence what the media say rather

:17:55.:17:55.

than visa versa. What does it mean than visa versa. What does it mean

:17:55.:17:57.

than visa versa. What does it mean for Labour, though? It is very

:17:57.:17:58.

for Labour, though? It is very for Labour, though? It is very

:17:58.:17:59.

important that we have an informed important that we have an informed

:17:59.:18:00.

important that we have an informed debate about welfare, and we choose

:18:00.:18:01.

debate about welfare, and we choose debate about welfare, and we choose

:18:01.:18:02.

the policies that are actually the policies that are actually

:18:02.:18:04.

the policies that are actually effective in enabling people to be

:18:04.:18:05.

effective in enabling people to be effective in enabling people to be

:18:05.:18:06.

in work, which is, afterall, what in work, which is, afterall, what

:18:06.:18:07.

in work, which is, afterall, what in work, which is, afterall, what

:18:07.:18:08.

we want to see for people who can we want to see for people who can

:18:08.:18:09.

we want to see for people who can we want to see for people who can

:18:09.:18:10.

work. I think that means that we work. I think that means that we

:18:11.:18:12.

work. I think that means that we work. I think that means that we

:18:12.:18:13.

have got to recognise that a very have got to recognise that a very

:18:13.:18:14.

substantial proportion of benefit substantial proportion of benefit

:18:14.:18:16.

substantial proportion of benefit recipients are in paid employment.

:18:16.:18:17.

recipients are in paid employment. recipients are in paid employment.

:18:17.:18:18.

recipients are in paid employment. As was said earlier in the little

:18:18.:18:19.

As was said earlier in the little As was said earlier in the little

:18:19.:18:20.

As was said earlier in the little clip we saw, their wages don't pay

:18:20.:18:20.

clip we saw, their wages don't pay clip we saw, their wages don't pay

:18:21.:18:22.

enough. I think it is also enough. I think it is also

:18:22.:18:24.

enough. I think it is also enough. I think it is also

:18:24.:18:26.

important to note when you say that important to note when you say that

:18:26.:18:27.

important to note when you say that 30% of the public expenditure

:18:27.:18:28.

30% of the public expenditure 30% of the public expenditure

:18:28.:18:29.

budget goes on social security, budget goes on social security,

:18:29.:18:29.

budget goes on social security, that includes the state pension,

:18:29.:18:30.

that includes the state pension, that includes the state pension,

:18:31.:18:32.

that includes the state pension, which is the largest part. I said

:18:32.:18:33.

which is the largest part. I said which is the largest part. I said

:18:33.:18:36.

which is the largest part. I said that too. I said that quite a long

:18:36.:18:37.

that too. I said that quite a long that too. I said that quite a long

:18:37.:18:38.

that too. I said that quite a long time ago. It is part of expenditure

:18:38.:18:39.

time ago. It is part of expenditure time ago. It is part of expenditure

:18:39.:18:41.

and really important. It is and really important. It is

:18:41.:18:41.

and really important. It is important we recognise that the

:18:41.:18:43.

important we recognise that the important we recognise that the

:18:43.:18:45.

amount on strictly out of work amount on strictly out of work

:18:45.:18:46.

amount on strictly out of work benefits is rather small. We can

:18:46.:18:47.

benefits is rather small. We can benefits is rather small. We can

:18:47.:18:48.

benefits is rather small. We can get into this la, you can stay here

:18:48.:18:49.

get into this la, you can stay here get into this la, you can stay here

:18:49.:18:50.

get into this la, you can stay here and we will talk about -- later,

:18:50.:18:51.

and we will talk about -- later, and we will talk about -- later,

:18:51.:18:52.

and we will talk about -- later, you can stay here and we will talk

:18:52.:18:55.

you can stay here and we will talk you can stay here and we will talk

:18:55.:18:57.

about it later. One benefit with about it later. One benefit with

:18:57.:18:58.

about it later. One benefit with the changing negotiation of benefit,

:18:58.:19:00.

the changing negotiation of benefit, the changing negotiation of benefit,

:19:00.:19:00.

is the benefit cap. Today the is the benefit cap. Today the

:19:01.:19:02.

is the benefit cap. Today the Government said it would roll it

:19:02.:19:03.

Government said it would roll it Government said it would roll it

:19:03.:19:04.

out in July and fully implemented out in July and fully implemented

:19:04.:19:05.

out in July and fully implemented out in July and fully implemented

:19:05.:19:06.

in December. No family by then will in December. No family by then will

:19:06.:19:08.

in December. No family by then will in December. No family by then will

:19:08.:19:09.

be able to take more than �26,000 a be able to take more than �26,000 a

:19:09.:19:10.

be able to take more than �26,000 a year in benefits from the state.

:19:10.:19:12.

year in benefits from the state. Four councils will start

:19:12.:19:13.

Four councils will start Four councils will start

:19:13.:19:14.

implementing the cap next month. implementing the cap next month.

:19:14.:19:15.

implementing the cap next month. Already people in some areas with

:19:15.:19:16.

Already people in some areas with Already people in some areas with

:19:16.:19:17.

large families are finding they large families are finding they

:19:17.:19:18.

have to move. have to move.

:19:18.:19:19.

have to move. have to move.

:19:19.:19:20.

We have been to Haringay to find We have been to Haringay to find

:19:20.:19:25.

We have been to Haringay to find out how they are doing.

:19:25.:19:26.

out how they are doing. out how they are doing.

:19:26.:19:27.

Haringay is one of four London Haringay is one of four London

:19:27.:19:29.

Haringay is one of four London Boroughs which next month will

:19:29.:19:30.

Boroughs which next month will Boroughs which next month will

:19:30.:19:33.

Boroughs which next month will begin a trial of the benefit cap.

:19:33.:19:34.

begin a trial of the benefit cap. begin a trial of the benefit cap.

:19:34.:19:35.

One of the Government's policies, One of the Government's policies,

:19:35.:19:38.

One of the Government's policies, designed to help and push people

:19:38.:19:40.

designed to help and push people designed to help and push people

:19:40.:19:41.

off benefits and into work. off benefits and into work.

:19:41.:19:43.

off benefits and into work. off benefits and into work.

:19:43.:19:44.

Families will get no more than �500 Families will get no more than �500

:19:44.:19:46.

Families will get no more than �500 in benefits per week, including all

:19:46.:19:47.

in benefits per week, including all in benefits per week, including all

:19:47.:19:49.

housing costs. A single person can housing costs. A single person can

:19:49.:19:51.

housing costs. A single person can get no more than �350. Haringey

:19:51.:19:53.

get no more than �350. Haringey get no more than �350. Haringey

:19:53.:19:53.

Council said over 1,000 households Council said over 1,000 households

:19:53.:19:56.

could be affected. could be affected.

:19:56.:19:58.

could be affected. could be affected.

:19:58.:20:01.

Some are worried they will have to Some are worried they will have to

:20:01.:20:02.

Some are worried they will have to move. This single mother of four

:20:02.:20:03.

move. This single mother of four move. This single mother of four

:20:03.:20:04.

move. This single mother of four young children told us she had been

:20:04.:20:05.

young children told us she had been young children told us she had been

:20:05.:20:06.

advised that unless she finds work advised that unless she finds work

:20:06.:20:08.

advised that unless she finds work advised that unless she finds work

:20:08.:20:08.

by the 15th of April, her housing by the 15th of April, her housing

:20:08.:20:10.

by the 15th of April, her housing by the 15th of April, her housing

:20:10.:20:11.

benefit will be cut by more than benefit will be cut by more than

:20:11.:20:12.

benefit will be cut by more than half. She has a hairdressing

:20:12.:20:13.

half. She has a hairdressing half. She has a hairdressing

:20:13.:20:16.

qualification, but no job now. qualification, but no job now.

:20:16.:20:18.

qualification, but no job now. qualification, but no job now.

:20:18.:20:19.

They say now to find work, but I'm They say now to find work, but I'm

:20:19.:20:20.

They say now to find work, but I'm They say now to find work, but I'm

:20:20.:20:21.

searching for work for a long time. searching for work for a long time.

:20:22.:20:23.

searching for work for a long time. searching for work for a long time.

:20:23.:20:24.

But I couldn't get the job. I don't But I couldn't get the job. I don't

:20:25.:20:28.

But I couldn't get the job. I don't like to live without work. She's

:20:28.:20:29.

like to live without work. She's like to live without work. She's

:20:29.:20:29.

like to live without work. She's been on a job seekers course, and

:20:29.:20:30.

been on a job seekers course, and been on a job seekers course, and

:20:30.:20:32.

been on a job seekers course, and she has had help rewriting her CV.

:20:32.:20:34.

she has had help rewriting her CV. she has had help rewriting her CV.

:20:34.:20:35.

she has had help rewriting her CV. She went to talk to the council,

:20:35.:20:35.

She went to talk to the council, She went to talk to the council,

:20:35.:20:36.

they gave her financial advice, they gave her financial advice,

:20:36.:20:38.

they gave her financial advice, they also suggested she could move

:20:38.:20:40.

they also suggested she could move they also suggested she could move

:20:40.:20:44.

to another city, several locations to another city, several locations

:20:44.:20:45.

to another city, several locations to another city, several locations

:20:45.:20:46.

were mentioned. They say if I don't were mentioned. They say if I don't

:20:46.:20:47.

were mentioned. They say if I don't were mentioned. They say if I don't

:20:47.:20:49.

get job by that time, they say they get job by that time, they say they

:20:49.:20:50.

get job by that time, they say they get job by that time, they say they

:20:50.:20:52.

are going to move me into a cheap are going to move me into a cheap

:20:52.:20:53.

are going to move me into a cheap area like Birmingham. And what's

:20:53.:20:56.

area like Birmingham. And what's area like Birmingham. And what's

:20:56.:20:59.

area like Birmingham. And what's your view of that? I am not going,

:20:59.:21:01.

your view of that? I am not going, your view of that? I am not going,

:21:01.:21:05.

because my children they love the because my children they love the

:21:05.:21:10.

because my children they love the school. I don't have anyone there.

:21:10.:21:11.

school. I don't have anyone there. school. I don't have anyone there.

:21:11.:21:12.

Supporter -- supporters of the cap Supporter -- supporters of the cap

:21:12.:21:13.

Supporter -- supporters of the cap say it shouldn't mean people on

:21:13.:21:14.

say it shouldn't mean people on say it shouldn't mean people on

:21:14.:21:14.

say it shouldn't mean people on benefits should have to move to the

:21:15.:21:15.

benefits should have to move to the benefits should have to move to the

:21:16.:21:16.

cheapest areas, but they should be cheapest areas, but they should be

:21:16.:21:18.

cheapest areas, but they should be flexible when it comes to work.

:21:18.:21:19.

flexible when it comes to work. flexible when it comes to work.

:21:19.:21:20.

flexible when it comes to work. flexible when it comes to work.

:21:20.:21:20.

There is a debate to be had, and we There is a debate to be had, and we

:21:20.:21:21.

There is a debate to be had, and we can have it sensibly about whether

:21:21.:21:23.

can have it sensibly about whether can have it sensibly about whether

:21:23.:21:23.

can have it sensibly about whether we should expect people who are on

:21:23.:21:24.

we should expect people who are on we should expect people who are on

:21:25.:21:25.

we should expect people who are on welfare to move if they can have

:21:25.:21:26.

welfare to move if they can have welfare to move if they can have

:21:26.:21:28.

other opportunities to work. A lot other opportunities to work. A lot

:21:28.:21:28.

other opportunities to work. A lot of people don't understand why you

:21:28.:21:29.

of people don't understand why you of people don't understand why you

:21:29.:21:31.

of people don't understand why you have to be either very well off, or

:21:31.:21:32.

have to be either very well off, or have to be either very well off, or

:21:32.:21:32.

have to be either very well off, or very poor to live in certain parts

:21:33.:21:34.

very poor to live in certain parts very poor to live in certain parts

:21:34.:21:36.

of particularly London. I think the of particularly London. I think the

:21:36.:21:37.

of particularly London. I think the average working family, perhaps not

:21:37.:21:39.

average working family, perhaps not average working family, perhaps not

:21:39.:21:40.

average working family, perhaps not on welfare looks at some people on

:21:40.:21:44.

on welfare looks at some people on on welfare looks at some people on

:21:44.:21:45.

welfare and thinks why can't -- welfare and thinks why can't --

:21:45.:21:46.

welfare and thinks why can't -- welfare and thinks why can't --

:21:46.:21:47.

can't I live in those areas. There can't I live in those areas. There

:21:47.:21:47.

can't I live in those areas. There can't I live in those areas. There

:21:47.:21:48.

is a debate to be had about whether is a debate to be had about whether

:21:48.:21:49.

is a debate to be had about whether is a debate to be had about whether

:21:49.:21:50.

we can move people around, if it we can move people around, if it

:21:50.:21:51.

we can move people around, if it we can move people around, if it

:21:51.:21:51.

gives them a better chance to get gives them a better chance to get

:21:51.:21:54.

gives them a better chance to get on the work ladder. The benefits

:21:54.:21:55.

on the work ladder. The benefits on the work ladder. The benefits

:21:55.:21:57.

on the work ladder. The benefits cap is one a number of welfare

:21:57.:21:58.

cap is one a number of welfare cap is one a number of welfare

:21:58.:22:00.

changes brought in this year. The changes brought in this year. The

:22:00.:22:03.

changes brought in this year. The changes brought in this year. The

:22:03.:22:04.

idea is to pilot across four London idea is to pilot across four London

:22:04.:22:06.

idea is to pilot across four London borrowings across to April, and

:22:06.:22:08.

borrowings across to April, and borrowings across to April, and

:22:08.:22:09.

then -- boroughs across to April then -- boroughs across to April

:22:09.:22:10.

then -- boroughs across to April then -- boroughs across to April

:22:10.:22:12.

and then out over the rest of the and then out over the rest of the

:22:12.:22:12.

and then out over the rest of the capital. The four local authorities

:22:12.:22:14.

capital. The four local authorities capital. The four local authorities

:22:14.:22:15.

involved say many thousands of involved say many thousands of

:22:15.:22:17.

households could be affected. households could be affected.

:22:17.:22:18.

households could be affected. Haringay Council told us people are

:22:18.:22:19.

Haringay Council told us people are Haringay Council told us people are

:22:19.:22:20.

being advised they could move. But being advised they could move. But

:22:20.:22:22.

being advised they could move. But being advised they could move. But

:22:22.:22:22.

during the six month of the pilot, during the six month of the pilot,

:22:23.:22:24.

during the six month of the pilot, no-one would have to go against

:22:24.:22:26.

no-one would have to go against no-one would have to go against

:22:26.:22:26.

their will. That might change when their will. That might change when

:22:26.:22:29.

their will. That might change when the policy is extended nationwide.

:22:29.:22:31.

the policy is extended nationwide. the policy is extended nationwide.

:22:31.:22:32.

the policy is extended nationwide. What we have to have is an honest

:22:32.:22:33.

What we have to have is an honest What we have to have is an honest

:22:33.:22:34.

conversation with people. I don't conversation with people. I don't

:22:34.:22:36.

conversation with people. I don't conversation with people. I don't

:22:36.:22:38.

think people would be very happy if think people would be very happy if

:22:38.:22:39.

think people would be very happy if we didn't explore with them the

:22:39.:22:40.

we didn't explore with them the we didn't explore with them the

:22:40.:22:41.

we didn't explore with them the need that they may need to move in

:22:41.:22:43.

need that they may need to move in need that they may need to move in

:22:43.:22:44.

the long-term. Because if this the long-term. Because if this

:22:44.:22:46.

the long-term. Because if this policy doesn't change, if the

:22:46.:22:47.

policy doesn't change, if the policy doesn't change, if the

:22:47.:22:49.

housing benefit cap is rolled out housing benefit cap is rolled out

:22:49.:22:50.

housing benefit cap is rolled out nationally, then people will be in

:22:50.:22:51.

nationally, then people will be in nationally, then people will be in

:22:51.:22:53.

a situation where over time their a situation where over time their

:22:53.:22:55.

a situation where over time their housing costs are going to remain

:22:55.:22:56.

housing costs are going to remain housing costs are going to remain

:22:56.:22:57.

high, while their housing benefit high, while their housing benefit

:22:57.:22:59.

high, while their housing benefit is much reduced. That's an

:22:59.:23:00.

is much reduced. That's an is much reduced. That's an

:23:00.:23:00.

unsustainable situation, it is not unsustainable situation, it is not

:23:00.:23:01.

unsustainable situation, it is not something that councils can pick up.

:23:01.:23:02.

something that councils can pick up. something that councils can pick up.

:23:02.:23:03.

something that councils can pick up. If I look at my own authority, we

:23:03.:23:04.

If I look at my own authority, we If I look at my own authority, we

:23:04.:23:05.

If I look at my own authority, we are looking at a �7 million bill,

:23:05.:23:07.

are looking at a �7 million bill, are looking at a �7 million bill,

:23:07.:23:08.

are looking at a �7 million bill, were we to pick up the housing

:23:08.:23:10.

were we to pick up the housing benefit shortfall that these

:23:10.:23:11.

benefit shortfall that these benefit shortfall that these

:23:11.:23:12.

families in my borough will be facing.

:23:12.:23:13.

facing. facing.

:23:13.:23:14.

facing. But you are going to have to meet

:23:14.:23:15.

But you are going to have to meet But you are going to have to meet

:23:15.:23:16.

But you are going to have to meet that bill over the next six month

:23:16.:23:17.

that bill over the next six month that bill over the next six month

:23:17.:23:18.

that bill over the next six month then? In the next six months, in

:23:18.:23:18.

then? In the next six months, in then? In the next six months, in

:23:18.:23:19.

the short-term, I expect that will the short-term, I expect that will

:23:19.:23:20.

the short-term, I expect that will the short-term, I expect that will

:23:20.:23:22.

be the case for many of those be the case for many of those

:23:22.:23:22.

be the case for many of those properties and many of those

:23:22.:23:27.

household, yes. household, yes.

:23:28.:23:29.

household, yes. household, yes.

:23:29.:23:30.

household, yes. The benefit cap is one of a raft of

:23:30.:23:31.

The benefit cap is one of a raft of The benefit cap is one of a raft of

:23:31.:23:32.

welfare changes that come in this welfare changes that come in this

:23:32.:23:34.

welfare changes that come in this year. The Government has said it

:23:34.:23:34.

year. The Government has said it year. The Government has said it

:23:34.:23:35.

year. The Government has said it want there to be a cultural shift

:23:35.:23:37.

want there to be a cultural shift want there to be a cultural shift

:23:37.:23:39.

want there to be a cultural shift when it comes to welfare. And it

:23:39.:23:41.

when it comes to welfare. And it when it comes to welfare. And it

:23:41.:23:42.

promised to save �18 billion from promised to save �18 billion from

:23:42.:23:43.

promised to save �18 billion from the benefits bill by the next

:23:43.:23:45.

the benefits bill by the next the benefits bill by the next

:23:45.:23:46.

election. The impact on individuals election. The impact on individuals

:23:46.:23:47.

election. The impact on individuals election. The impact on individuals

:23:47.:23:49.

and families has yet to be seen. and families has yet to be seen.

:23:49.:23:51.

and families has yet to be seen. and families has yet to be seen.

:23:51.:23:51.

and families has yet to be seen. Here is a quick look at some of the

:23:51.:23:52.

Here is a quick look at some of the Here is a quick look at some of the

:23:52.:23:53.

other specific measures that will other specific measures that will

:23:53.:23:55.

other specific measures that will other specific measures that will

:23:55.:23:55.

start to come in this year, also start to come in this year, also

:23:55.:23:59.

from Sanchia Berg. from Sanchia Berg.

:23:59.:24:00.

from Sanchia Berg. From April a range of welfare

:24:00.:24:02.

From April a range of welfare From April a range of welfare

:24:02.:24:04.

changes will start to take effect. changes will start to take effect.

:24:04.:24:05.

changes will start to take effect. Pilots for Universal Credit will

:24:05.:24:06.

Pilots for Universal Credit will Pilots for Universal Credit will

:24:06.:24:08.

begin, it will be extended across begin, it will be extended across

:24:08.:24:09.

begin, it will be extended across begin, it will be extended across

:24:09.:24:10.

the country in October. This is the the country in October. This is the

:24:10.:24:11.

the country in October. This is the core policy, intended to move

:24:11.:24:12.

core policy, intended to move core policy, intended to move

:24:12.:24:14.

people off welfare and into work. people off welfare and into work.

:24:14.:24:15.

people off welfare and into work. It brings together six different

:24:15.:24:17.

It brings together six different It brings together six different

:24:17.:24:18.

It brings together six different benefits that are paid to people of

:24:18.:24:20.

benefits that are paid to people of benefits that are paid to people of

:24:20.:24:22.

working age employed or not. working age employed or not.

:24:22.:24:23.

Jobseeker's allowance, Employment Jobseeker's allowance, Employment

:24:23.:24:26.

and Support Allowance, income and Support Allowance, income

:24:26.:24:26.

and Support Allowance, income support, Child Tax Credit, Working

:24:27.:24:28.

support, Child Tax Credit, Working support, Child Tax Credit, Working

:24:28.:24:32.

Tax Credit, and housing benefit. Tax Credit, and housing benefit.

:24:32.:24:33.

Tax Credit, and housing benefit. Tax Credit, and housing benefit.

:24:33.:24:33.

The idea is that you should always The idea is that you should always

:24:33.:24:35.

The idea is that you should always be better off working than on

:24:35.:24:37.

be better off working than on be better off working than on

:24:37.:24:38.

benefits. When people start work benefits. When people start work

:24:38.:24:40.

benefits. When people start work now their benefits fall sharply, so

:24:40.:24:41.

now their benefits fall sharply, so now their benefits fall sharply, so

:24:41.:24:41.

now their benefits fall sharply, so many people can find they work hard

:24:41.:24:42.

many people can find they work hard many people can find they work hard

:24:42.:24:44.

many people can find they work hard but they are not much better off.

:24:44.:24:46.

but they are not much better off. but they are not much better off.

:24:46.:24:47.

With Universal Credit, the fall With Universal Credit, the fall

:24:47.:24:48.

With Universal Credit, the fall will be more gradual. People will

:24:48.:24:49.

will be more gradual. People will will be more gradual. People will

:24:49.:24:51.

have more money, more of an have more money, more of an

:24:51.:24:52.

have more money, more of an have more money, more of an

:24:52.:24:54.

incentive to work, or to work more hours.

:24:54.:24:58.

hours. hours.

:24:58.:24:58.

In April too Disability Living In April too Disability Living

:24:58.:25:00.

In April too Disability Living Allowance will be replaced, for new

:25:00.:25:02.

Allowance will be replaced, for new Allowance will be replaced, for new

:25:02.:25:05.

claimants, it with the Personal claimants, it with the Personal

:25:05.:25:07.

claimants, it with the Personal Independent Payment, and the under-

:25:07.:25:09.

Independent Payment, and the under- Independent Payment, and the under-

:25:09.:25:11.

occupation penalty will come in too. occupation penalty will come in too.

:25:12.:25:13.

occupation penalty will come in too. Nicknamed "the bedroom tax", it

:25:13.:25:14.

Nicknamed "the bedroom tax", it Nicknamed "the bedroom tax", it

:25:14.:25:15.

means if tenants have spare rooms, means if tenants have spare rooms,

:25:16.:25:17.

means if tenants have spare rooms, that benefit will be cut. Council

:25:17.:25:18.

that benefit will be cut. Council that benefit will be cut. Council

:25:18.:25:18.

tax benefit will be replaced, local tax benefit will be replaced, local

:25:19.:25:20.

tax benefit will be replaced, local authorities will be given a grant

:25:20.:25:21.

authorities will be given a grant authorities will be given a grant

:25:21.:25:24.

instead. They have to organise and instead. They have to organise and

:25:24.:25:25.

administer this benefit themselves. administer this benefit themselves.

:25:25.:25:27.

While Universal Credit simplifies While Universal Credit simplifies

:25:27.:25:29.

While Universal Credit simplifies and centralises welfare, this could

:25:29.:25:33.

complicate it. complicate it.

:25:33.:25:34.

complicate it. complicate it.

:25:34.:25:35.

Earlier I did speak to the Minister Earlier I did speak to the Minister

:25:35.:25:36.

Earlier I did speak to the Minister for Employment Mark Hoban. I asked

:25:36.:25:37.

for Employment Mark Hoban. I asked for Employment Mark Hoban. I asked

:25:37.:25:38.

for Employment Mark Hoban. I asked him to imagine there was no budget

:25:38.:25:39.

him to imagine there was no budget him to imagine there was no budget

:25:39.:25:40.

deficit, would the Government still deficit, would the Government still

:25:40.:25:41.

deficit, would the Government still deficit, would the Government still

:25:41.:25:42.

be going ahead with all the welfare be going ahead with all the welfare

:25:42.:25:43.

be going ahead with all the welfare be going ahead with all the welfare

:25:43.:25:44.

changes that are now in train? changes that are now in train?

:25:44.:25:45.

changes that are now in train? think the mistake that the previous

:25:45.:25:46.

think the mistake that the previous think the mistake that the previous

:25:46.:25:48.

Government made was not to reform Government made was not to reform

:25:48.:25:49.

Government made was not to reform benefits. We saw ballooning benefit

:25:49.:25:50.

benefits. We saw ballooning benefit benefits. We saw ballooning benefit

:25:50.:25:51.

benefits. We saw ballooning benefit bills, but no changes in place to

:25:51.:25:53.

bills, but no changes in place to bills, but no changes in place to

:25:53.:25:54.

bills, but no changes in place to tackle that. Of course now we have

:25:54.:25:56.

tackle that. Of course now we have difficult times then difficult

:25:56.:25:58.

difficult times then difficult difficult times then difficult

:25:58.:26:01.

actions need to be taken and actions need to be taken and

:26:01.:26:02.

difficult measures produced. But difficult measures produced. But

:26:02.:26:03.

difficult measures produced. But Universal Credit will help people

:26:03.:26:03.

Universal Credit will help people Universal Credit will help people

:26:03.:26:06.

Universal Credit will help people get into work, and make it a no-

:26:06.:26:07.

get into work, and make it a no- get into work, and make it a no-

:26:07.:26:08.

brainer for people to work rather brainer for people to work rather

:26:08.:26:09.

brainer for people to work rather than not work, and increasing their

:26:09.:26:10.

than not work, and increasing their than not work, and increasing their

:26:10.:26:11.

than not work, and increasing their hours to work more to earn more

:26:11.:26:13.

hours to work more to earn more hours to work more to earn more

:26:13.:26:13.

hours to work more to earn more rather than less. It is a universal

:26:13.:26:14.

rather than less. It is a universal rather than less. It is a universal

:26:14.:26:16.

reform to not just tackle the reform to not just tackle the

:26:16.:26:17.

reform to not just tackle the deficit, but to support aspiration,

:26:17.:26:18.

deficit, but to support aspiration, deficit, but to support aspiration,

:26:18.:26:19.

get people into work and ensure get people into work and ensure

:26:19.:26:19.

get people into work and ensure people feel they can play their

:26:19.:26:22.

people feel they can play their people feel they can play their

:26:22.:26:23.

full role in society. Rewarding full role in society. Rewarding

:26:23.:26:23.

full role in society. Rewarding work, but actually penalising a lot

:26:23.:26:25.

work, but actually penalising a lot work, but actually penalising a lot

:26:25.:26:26.

work, but actually penalising a lot of people in work with a real cut

:26:26.:26:29.

of people in work with a real cut of people in work with a real cut

:26:29.:26:31.

in working-age benefits. There will in working-age benefits. There will

:26:31.:26:31.

in working-age benefits. There will be nearly three-times more people

:26:31.:26:32.

be nearly three-times more people be nearly three-times more people

:26:32.:26:33.

be nearly three-times more people affected by the change to the up-

:26:33.:26:34.

affected by the change to the up- affected by the change to the up-

:26:34.:26:34.

affected by the change to the up- rating of benefit that is are in

:26:35.:26:35.

rating of benefit that is are in rating of benefit that is are in

:26:35.:26:36.

rating of benefit that is are in work than out of work? You can't

:26:36.:26:37.

work than out of work? You can't work than out of work? You can't

:26:37.:26:38.

just look at the benefits in just look at the benefits in

:26:38.:26:39.

just look at the benefits in just look at the benefits in

:26:39.:26:40.

isolation, you have to look at the isolation, you have to look at the

:26:40.:26:41.

isolation, you have to look at the tax changes as well. 24 million

:26:41.:26:43.

tax changes as well. 24 million tax changes as well. 24 million

:26:43.:26:44.

people pay less tax as a people pay less tax as a

:26:44.:26:44.

people pay less tax as a consequence of the increase in

:26:44.:26:45.

consequence of the increase in consequence of the increase in

:26:45.:26:46.

personal allowance. I don't think personal allowance. I don't think

:26:46.:26:48.

personal allowance. I don't think you lock at benefits in isolation,

:26:48.:26:49.

you lock at benefits in isolation, you lock at benefits in isolation,

:26:49.:26:50.

but changes taking elsewhere in the but changes taking elsewhere in the

:26:50.:26:51.

but changes taking elsewhere in the but changes taking elsewhere in the

:26:52.:26:52.

tax system too. It is a strong tax system too. It is a strong

:26:52.:26:53.

tax system too. It is a strong message. We want to incentivise

:26:53.:26:54.

message. We want to incentivise message. We want to incentivise

:26:54.:26:55.

people to work, and encourage more people to work, and encourage more

:26:55.:26:56.

people to work, and encourage more people into work rather than

:26:56.:26:57.

people into work rather than people into work rather than

:26:57.:26:58.

staying on benefits for life. staying on benefits for life.

:26:58.:26:59.

staying on benefits for life. are talking about attitudes a lot

:26:59.:27:00.

are talking about attitudes a lot are talking about attitudes a lot

:27:00.:27:01.

are talking about attitudes a lot in this programme. Do you think you

:27:01.:27:02.

in this programme. Do you think you in this programme. Do you think you

:27:02.:27:03.

in this programme. Do you think you have the public behind you in these

:27:03.:27:05.

have the public behind you in these have the public behind you in these

:27:05.:27:06.

have the public behind you in these changes? Yes, I talk to people in

:27:06.:27:08.

changes? Yes, I talk to people in changes? Yes, I talk to people in

:27:08.:27:09.

Jobcentres, I talk to my Jobcentres, I talk to my

:27:09.:27:10.

Jobcentres, I talk to my constituents, in people in business,

:27:10.:27:11.

constituents, in people in business, constituents, in people in business,

:27:11.:27:12.

who recognise there is a failed who recognise there is a failed

:27:12.:27:14.

who recognise there is a failed welfare system, that we do need

:27:14.:27:16.

welfare system, that we do need welfare system, that we do need

:27:16.:27:17.

reforms, and recognise that there reforms, and recognise that there

:27:17.:27:17.

reforms, and recognise that there should be fairness towards those

:27:17.:27:18.

should be fairness towards those should be fairness towards those

:27:18.:27:19.

should be fairness towards those should be fairness towards those

:27:19.:27:20.

who are in work and out of work too. who are in work and out of work too.

:27:20.:27:21.

who are in work and out of work too. who are in work and out of work too.

:27:21.:27:23.

That people who are in work have to That people who are in work have to

:27:23.:27:25.

make difficult decisions about make difficult decisions about

:27:25.:27:26.

make difficult decisions about make difficult decisions about

:27:26.:27:27.

housing, why are those out of work housing, why are those out of work

:27:27.:27:28.

housing, why are those out of work shielded from making the same

:27:28.:27:28.

shielded from making the same shielded from making the same

:27:29.:27:29.

difficult decisions. Do you think difficult decisions. Do you think

:27:29.:27:30.

difficult decisions. Do you think difficult decisions. Do you think

:27:30.:27:31.

difficult decisions. Do you think there is a limit to how far you can

:27:31.:27:32.

there is a limit to how far you can there is a limit to how far you can

:27:32.:27:33.

there is a limit to how far you can go with these kinds of cuts, a

:27:33.:27:34.

go with these kinds of cuts, a go with these kinds of cuts, a

:27:34.:27:35.

go with these kinds of cuts, a point at which you will lose public

:27:35.:27:37.

point at which you will lose public point at which you will lose public

:27:37.:27:38.

point at which you will lose public support? Or do you think there is

:27:38.:27:39.

support? Or do you think there is support? Or do you think there is

:27:39.:27:40.

support? Or do you think there is really no limit on the cuts to

:27:40.:27:41.

really no limit on the cuts to really no limit on the cuts to

:27:41.:27:43.

benefits for some parts of the benefits for some parts of the

:27:43.:27:44.

benefits for some parts of the population? The population has an

:27:44.:27:45.

population? The population has an population? The population has an

:27:45.:27:45.

population? The population has an inate sense of what is fair. They

:27:46.:27:47.

inate sense of what is fair. They inate sense of what is fair. They

:27:47.:27:48.

support the benefit reforms because support the benefit reforms because

:27:48.:27:49.

support the benefit reforms because support the benefit reforms because

:27:49.:27:49.

they see them as fair towards those they see them as fair towards those

:27:49.:27:50.

they see them as fair towards those they see them as fair towards those

:27:50.:27:51.

who are in work and those out of who are in work and those out of

:27:51.:27:52.

who are in work and those out of who are in work and those out of

:27:52.:27:52.

who are in work and those out of work. I think there is a sense of a

:27:53.:27:54.

work. I think there is a sense of a work. I think there is a sense of a

:27:54.:27:55.

work. I think there is a sense of a bargain that we need to get across

:27:55.:27:56.

bargain that we need to get across bargain that we need to get across

:27:56.:27:57.

here. Tax-payers are happy to pay here. Tax-payers are happy to pay

:27:57.:27:59.

here. Tax-payers are happy to pay here. Tax-payers are happy to pay

:27:59.:27:59.

benefits to those who are sick, who benefits to those who are sick, who

:27:59.:28:00.

benefits to those who are sick, who have got caring responsibility, who

:28:00.:28:01.

have got caring responsibility, who have got caring responsibility, who

:28:01.:28:02.

can't work. They expect to pay can't work. They expect to pay

:28:02.:28:03.

can't work. They expect to pay can't work. They expect to pay

:28:03.:28:04.

benefits to people who are out of benefits to people who are out of

:28:04.:28:05.

benefits to people who are out of benefits to people who are out of

:28:05.:28:05.

work, but in return expect them to work, but in return expect them to

:28:05.:28:06.

work, but in return expect them to work, but in return expect them to

:28:06.:28:07.

look for work as well. There is a look for work as well. There is a

:28:07.:28:08.

look for work as well. There is a contract there, I think, and I

:28:08.:28:10.

contract there, I think, and I contract there, I think, and I

:28:10.:28:11.

think our reforms are reinforcing think our reforms are reinforcing

:28:11.:28:12.

think our reforms are reinforcing that contract. You can go further,

:28:12.:28:13.

that contract. You can go further, that contract. You can go further,

:28:13.:28:14.

that contract. You can go further, do you think? You will be looking

:28:14.:28:16.

do you think? You will be looking do you think? You will be looking

:28:16.:28:16.

do you think? You will be looking for more cuts in the summer in the

:28:16.:28:17.

for more cuts in the summer in the for more cuts in the summer in the

:28:17.:28:18.

Spending Review, are there more Spending Review, are there more

:28:18.:28:19.

Spending Review, are there more Spending Review, are there more

:28:19.:28:20.

things you can do? I think there is things you can do? I think there is

:28:20.:28:21.

things you can do? I think there is a continued pressure to ensure we

:28:22.:28:23.

a continued pressure to ensure we a continued pressure to ensure we

:28:23.:28:24.

can spend the benefits wisely, that can spend the benefits wisely, that

:28:24.:28:25.

can spend the benefits wisely, that can spend the benefits wisely, that

:28:25.:28:26.

we look at ways to sharpen work we look at ways to sharpen work

:28:26.:28:27.

we look at ways to sharpen work incentives and ensure there is

:28:27.:28:30.

incentives and ensure there is incentives and ensure there is

:28:30.:28:30.

incentives and ensure there is fairness in the system How much are

:28:31.:28:31.

fairness in the system How much are fairness in the system How much are

:28:31.:28:33.

you looking in terms of savings, you looking in terms of savings,

:28:33.:28:34.

you looking in terms of savings, are you looking for �10 billion,

:28:34.:28:36.

are you looking for �10 billion, are you looking for �10 billion,

:28:36.:28:36.

that is what George Osborne that is what George Osborne

:28:36.:28:38.

that is what George Osborne suggested? It is a matter of

:28:38.:28:40.

suggested? It is a matter of suggested? It is a matter of

:28:40.:28:41.

context at the moment with the context at the moment with the

:28:41.:28:42.

context at the moment with the budget and Spending Review. There

:28:42.:28:43.

budget and Spending Review. There budget and Spending Review. There

:28:43.:28:44.

is a continued focus and is a continued focus and

:28:44.:28:45.

is a continued focus and expectation from the taxpayer.

:28:45.:28:47.

expectation from the taxpayer. expectation from the taxpayer.

:28:47.:28:47.

not necessarily �10 billion? There not necessarily �10 billion? There

:28:47.:28:49.

not necessarily �10 billion? There not necessarily �10 billion? There

:28:49.:28:50.

is an expectation that we look very is an expectation that we look very

:28:50.:28:51.

is an expectation that we look very carefully at the benefits bill, it

:28:51.:28:52.

carefully at the benefits bill, it carefully at the benefits bill, it

:28:52.:28:53.

is not just about pressuring is not just about pressuring

:28:53.:28:53.

is not just about pressuring Government to do that, but tax-

:28:54.:28:54.

Government to do that, but tax- Government to do that, but tax-

:28:55.:28:56.

payers expect us to look very payers expect us to look very

:28:56.:28:57.

payers expect us to look very carefully at it. That has driven

:28:57.:28:58.

carefully at it. That has driven carefully at it. That has driven

:28:58.:28:59.

the reforms we have introduced so the reforms we have introduced so

:28:59.:29:01.

the reforms we have introduced so far, that make the benefit bill

:29:01.:29:02.

far, that make the benefit bill far, that make the benefit bill

:29:02.:29:03.

more sustainable, and rewards those more sustainable, and rewards those

:29:03.:29:04.

more sustainable, and rewards those doing the right thing and getting

:29:04.:29:05.

doing the right thing and getting doing the right thing and getting

:29:05.:29:06.

into work. Social security spending into work. Social security spending

:29:06.:29:07.

into work. Social security spending into work. Social security spending

:29:07.:29:08.

will be actually taking more of a will be actually taking more of a

:29:08.:29:09.

will be actually taking more of a our national income, in 2017, at

:29:09.:29:10.

our national income, in 2017, at our national income, in 2017, at

:29:10.:29:11.

our national income, in 2017, at the end of all this austerity, all

:29:11.:29:12.

the end of all this austerity, all the end of all this austerity, all

:29:12.:29:13.

the end of all this austerity, all of this squeeze, than it did at the

:29:13.:29:13.

of this squeeze, than it did at the of this squeeze, than it did at the

:29:13.:29:14.

of this squeeze, than it did at the beginning. It is going to go up by

:29:14.:29:16.

beginning. It is going to go up by beginning. It is going to go up by

:29:16.:29:17.

beginning. It is going to go up by 3% of GDP, at the same time that

:29:17.:29:18.

3% of GDP, at the same time that 3% of GDP, at the same time that

:29:18.:29:19.

you are cutting defence, you are you are cutting defence, you are

:29:19.:29:20.

you are cutting defence, you are cutting law and order, large parts

:29:20.:29:21.

cutting law and order, large parts cutting law and order, large parts

:29:21.:29:23.

of public services being cut by of public services being cut by

:29:23.:29:24.

of public services being cut by of public services being cut by

:29:24.:29:25.

more than 25%. Can you see why a more than 25%. Can you see why a

:29:25.:29:26.

more than 25%. Can you see why a lot of Conservative voters would

:29:26.:29:27.

lot of Conservative voters would lot of Conservative voters would

:29:27.:29:28.

say what are the priorities here? say what are the priorities here?

:29:28.:29:30.

say what are the priorities here? say what are the priorities here?

:29:30.:29:33.

We have also taken some very clear We have also taken some very clear

:29:33.:29:34.

decisions around welfare spending, decisions around welfare spending,

:29:34.:29:35.

decisions around welfare spending, for example we introduced a triple

:29:35.:29:36.

for example we introduced a triple for example we introduced a triple

:29:36.:29:37.

lot for pensions, the state pension lot for pensions, the state pension

:29:37.:29:39.

lot for pensions, the state pension lot for pensions, the state pension

:29:39.:29:41.

will always go up by 2.5% per an will always go up by 2.5% per an

:29:41.:29:42.

will always go up by 2.5% per an number. We have protected the

:29:42.:29:43.

number. We have protected the Winter Fuel Allowance. Which

:29:43.:29:45.

Winter Fuel Allowance. Which Winter Fuel Allowance. Which

:29:45.:29:46.

guarantees spending more and more guarantees spending more and more

:29:46.:29:48.

guarantees spending more and more and more on elderly benefits?

:29:48.:29:48.

and more on elderly benefits? and more on elderly benefits?

:29:49.:29:50.

have made a commitment to support have made a commitment to support

:29:50.:29:52.

have made a commitment to support older people through the pensions

:29:52.:29:53.

older people through the pensions by protecting Winter Fuel

:29:53.:29:54.

by protecting Winter Fuel by protecting Winter Fuel

:29:54.:29:55.

Allowances and free bus passes. Allowances and free bus passes.

:29:55.:29:56.

Allowances and free bus passes. Allowances and free bus passes.

:29:56.:29:57.

That is one of the reasons why the That is one of the reasons why the

:29:57.:29:58.

That is one of the reasons why the That is one of the reasons why the

:29:58.:29:59.

Welfare Bill is going up. That was Welfare Bill is going up. That was

:29:59.:30:02.

Welfare Bill is going up. That was a very clear commitment we entered

:30:02.:30:03.

a very clear commitment we entered a very clear commitment we entered

:30:03.:30:03.

a very clear commitment we entered into in the election and one we are

:30:03.:30:05.

into in the election and one we are into in the election and one we are

:30:05.:30:05.

sticking by. Given all the sticking by. Given all the

:30:05.:30:06.

sticking by. Given all the pressures and given that everyone

:30:06.:30:07.

pressures and given that everyone pressures and given that everyone

:30:07.:30:08.

understands things have to be cut understands things have to be cut

:30:08.:30:09.

understands things have to be cut and you have to make difficult

:30:09.:30:10.

and you have to make difficult decisions, wouldn't you have

:30:10.:30:11.

decisions, wouldn't you have decisions, wouldn't you have

:30:11.:30:12.

expected you could have get further expected you could have get further

:30:12.:30:14.

expected you could have get further in cutting social security? If not

:30:14.:30:15.

in cutting social security? If not in cutting social security? If not

:30:15.:30:16.

in cutting social security? If not now, when? We have set up clear

:30:17.:30:18.

now, when? We have set up clear now, when? We have set up clear

:30:18.:30:19.

reform, some very clear measures to reform, some very clear measures to

:30:19.:30:21.

reform, some very clear measures to reform, some very clear measures to

:30:21.:30:22.

tackle some of the problems of the tackle some of the problems of the

:30:22.:30:23.

tackle some of the problems of the benefits system, to rein back the

:30:23.:30:25.

benefits system, to rein back the benefits system, to rein back the

:30:25.:30:25.

growth in housing benefit. There growth in housing benefit. There

:30:25.:30:26.

growth in housing benefit. There growth in housing benefit. There

:30:26.:30:27.

was a big challenge here to make was a big challenge here to make

:30:27.:30:28.

was a big challenge here to make was a big challenge here to make

:30:28.:30:29.

sure we have a system that protects sure we have a system that protects

:30:29.:30:30.

sure we have a system that protects sure we have a system that protects

:30:30.:30:31.

those in need. That is why we have those in need. That is why we have

:30:31.:30:32.

those in need. That is why we have protected benefits for the disabled.

:30:32.:30:33.

protected benefits for the disabled. protected benefits for the disabled.

:30:33.:30:34.

protected benefits for the disabled. We don't want to hit the most

:30:34.:30:35.

We don't want to hit the most We don't want to hit the most

:30:35.:30:35.

vulnerable in society. But at the vulnerable in society. But at the

:30:35.:30:36.

vulnerable in society. But at the vulnerable in society. But at the

:30:36.:30:38.

same time we do need to find ways same time we do need to find ways

:30:38.:30:39.

same time we do need to find ways to tackle that growth in the

:30:39.:30:40.

to tackle that growth in the to tackle that growth in the

:30:40.:30:42.

benefits bill and provide the right benefits bill and provide the right

:30:42.:30:43.

benefits bill and provide the right incentives, get people into work

:30:43.:30:44.

incentives, get people into work incentives, get people into work

:30:44.:30:45.

incentives, get people into work but be fair to knows in work and

:30:45.:30:46.

but be fair to knows in work and out of work.

:30:46.:30:47.

out of work. out of work.

:30:47.:30:48.

out of work. -- Those in work and out of work.

:30:48.:30:49.

-- Those in work and out of work. -- Those in work and out of work.

:30:49.:30:50.

-- Those in work and out of work. My guests are still here, we have

:30:50.:30:51.

My guests are still here, we have My guests are still here, we have

:30:51.:30:52.

talked about the change in talked about the change in

:30:52.:30:53.

talked about the change in attitudes to welfare, some of the

:30:53.:30:54.

attitudes to welfare, some of the financial challenges the Government

:30:54.:30:55.

financial challenges the Government financial challenges the Government

:30:55.:30:56.

financial challenges the Government is facing and the changes that are

:30:56.:30:59.

is facing and the changes that are is facing and the changes that are

:30:59.:30:59.

coming in. So, James Bartholemew, coming in. So, James Bartholemew,

:30:59.:31:00.

coming in. So, James Bartholemew, coming in. So, James Bartholemew,

:31:00.:31:02.

do you think this adds up, in the do you think this adds up, in the

:31:02.:31:03.

do you think this adds up, in the do you think this adds up, in the

:31:03.:31:04.

round, do you think this adds up to round, do you think this adds up to

:31:04.:31:05.

round, do you think this adds up to a coherent strategy the changes the

:31:05.:31:07.

a coherent strategy the changes the a coherent strategy the changes the

:31:07.:31:07.

Government are making? It is Government are making? It is

:31:07.:31:09.

reasonably coherent, it probably reasonably coherent, it probably

:31:09.:31:10.

reasonably coherent, it probably reasonably coherent, it probably

:31:10.:31:11.

doesn't go far enough. It is still doesn't go far enough. It is still

:31:11.:31:13.

doesn't go far enough. It is still going to be the position, even

:31:13.:31:15.

going to be the position, even going to be the position, even

:31:15.:31:17.

after the universal benefits, it after the universal benefits, it

:31:17.:31:18.

seems extraordinary that the seems extraordinary that the

:31:18.:31:19.

seems extraordinary that the universal benefit was necessary to

:31:19.:31:20.

universal benefit was necessary to universal benefit was necessary to

:31:20.:31:21.

universal benefit was necessary to make it worthwhile to work at all.

:31:21.:31:22.

make it worthwhile to work at all. make it worthwhile to work at all.

:31:22.:31:23.

make it worthwhile to work at all. In Peter Lilley's team the DSS used

:31:23.:31:24.

In Peter Lilley's team the DSS used In Peter Lilley's team the DSS used

:31:24.:31:26.

to have reports showing that to have reports showing that

:31:26.:31:27.

to have reports showing that hundreds of thousands of people

:31:27.:31:28.

hundreds of thousands of people hundreds of thousands of people

:31:28.:31:30.

would only benefit by 10% by would only benefit by 10% by

:31:30.:31:32.

would only benefit by 10% by working. They were working despite

:31:32.:31:33.

working. They were working despite working. They were working despite

:31:33.:31:34.

working. They were working despite the fact they were only gaining 10%.

:31:34.:31:35.

the fact they were only gaining 10%. the fact they were only gaining 10%.

:31:35.:31:36.

We were relying on goodwill for We were relying on goodwill for

:31:36.:31:37.

We were relying on goodwill for people to work. That was totally

:31:38.:31:38.

people to work. That was totally people to work. That was totally

:31:38.:31:39.

people to work. That was totally wrong and it is absurd that it has

:31:39.:31:40.

wrong and it is absurd that it has wrong and it is absurd that it has

:31:40.:31:41.

wrong and it is absurd that it has taken us so long to get to this

:31:41.:31:42.

taken us so long to get to this taken us so long to get to this

:31:42.:31:44.

taken us so long to get to this state. It has taken us a generation

:31:44.:31:45.

state. It has taken us a generation state. It has taken us a generation

:31:45.:31:46.

state. It has taken us a generation for the public to be ready to

:31:46.:31:47.

for the public to be ready to for the public to be ready to

:31:47.:31:47.

accept this, and for the accept this, and for the

:31:47.:31:48.

accept this, and for the accept this, and for the

:31:48.:31:49.

politicians to be ready to take it politicians to be ready to take it

:31:49.:31:50.

politicians to be ready to take it on. Because they were very, very

:31:50.:31:52.

on. Because they were very, very on. Because they were very, very

:31:52.:31:53.

cautious for so long. Kate Pickett, cautious for so long. Kate Pickett,

:31:53.:31:55.

cautious for so long. Kate Pickett, cautious for so long. Kate Pickett,

:31:55.:31:57.

you may not like all these changes, you may not like all these changes,

:31:57.:31:57.

you may not like all these changes, you may not like all these changes,

:31:57.:31:58.

but if they build support for the but if they build support for the

:31:58.:31:59.

but if they build support for the system, if they do reward work,

:31:59.:32:00.

system, if they do reward work, system, if they do reward work,

:32:00.:32:01.

that won good for the welfare that won good for the welfare

:32:01.:32:03.

that won good for the welfare that won good for the welfare

:32:03.:32:04.

system in the long run? It would be system in the long run? It would be

:32:04.:32:05.

system in the long run? It would be wonderful to reward work. I don't

:32:05.:32:06.

wonderful to reward work. I don't wonderful to reward work. I don't

:32:06.:32:07.

see it as a particularly coherent see it as a particularly coherent

:32:07.:32:08.

see it as a particularly coherent see it as a particularly coherent

:32:08.:32:09.

plan. I think the only thing that plan. I think the only thing that

:32:09.:32:11.

seems coherent about this seems coherent about this

:32:11.:32:13.

seems coherent about this Government's actions is the wish to

:32:13.:32:14.

Government's actions is the wish to Government's actions is the wish to

:32:14.:32:15.

divide neighbour from neighbour. To divide neighbour from neighbour. To

:32:15.:32:16.

divide neighbour from neighbour. To draw a distinction between the

:32:16.:32:17.

draw a distinction between the draw a distinction between the

:32:17.:32:18.

deserving poor and undeserving poor. deserving poor and undeserving poor.

:32:19.:32:20.

deserving poor and undeserving poor. deserving poor and undeserving poor.

:32:20.:32:21.

And it shocks me actually. Do you And it shocks me actually. Do you

:32:21.:32:22.

And it shocks me actually. Do you think no distinction should be made

:32:22.:32:24.

think no distinction should be made think no distinction should be made

:32:24.:32:25.

between those who deserve benefit between those who deserve benefit

:32:25.:32:26.

between those who deserve benefit and those who don't deserve

:32:26.:32:27.

and those who don't deserve and those who don't deserve

:32:27.:32:28.

and those who don't deserve benefit? I think we need to create

:32:28.:32:29.

benefit? I think we need to create benefit? I think we need to create

:32:29.:32:30.

benefit? I think we need to create a society where we care for the

:32:30.:32:31.

a society where we care for the a society where we care for the

:32:31.:32:33.

vulnerable, and we care for the vulnerable, and we care for the

:32:33.:32:34.

vulnerable, and we care for the less resilient. The vulnerable and

:32:34.:32:35.

less resilient. The vulnerable and less resilient. The vulnerable and

:32:35.:32:37.

deserving poor. We make our policy deserving poor. We make our policy

:32:37.:32:38.

deserving poor. We make our policy deserving poor. We make our policy

:32:38.:32:39.

for that. We don't make policy on for that. We don't make policy on

:32:39.:32:40.

for that. We don't make policy on for that. We don't make policy on

:32:40.:32:41.

the fact that a tiny proportion of the fact that a tiny proportion of

:32:41.:32:42.

the fact that a tiny proportion of those on benefits are fraudulent.

:32:42.:32:44.

those on benefits are fraudulent. those on benefits are fraudulent.

:32:44.:32:45.

One thing that does make it One thing that does make it

:32:45.:32:46.

One thing that does make it difficult is the undeserving poor

:32:46.:32:47.

difficult is the undeserving poor difficult is the undeserving poor

:32:47.:32:49.

have children, they can end up have children, they can end up

:32:49.:32:51.

have children, they can end up suffering? I'm not sure who the

:32:51.:32:53.

suffering? I'm not sure who the suffering? I'm not sure who the

:32:53.:32:54.

undeserving poor are? I think we undeserving poor are? I think we

:32:54.:32:55.

undeserving poor are? I think we undeserving poor are? I think we

:32:55.:32:56.

have to remember that the rise in have to remember that the rise in

:32:56.:32:58.

benefit expenditure since the benefit expenditure since the

:32:58.:32:59.

benefit expenditure since the recession has actually been to

:32:59.:33:01.

recession has actually been to recession has actually been to

:33:01.:33:02.

recession has actually been to working people. We have also got to

:33:02.:33:03.

working people. We have also got to working people. We have also got to

:33:03.:33:04.

remember that most people when they remember that most people when they

:33:04.:33:05.

remember that most people when they remember that most people when they

:33:05.:33:06.

are on out of work benefits, that are on out of work benefits, that

:33:06.:33:07.

are on out of work benefits, that are on out of work benefits, that

:33:07.:33:07.

is not a permanent state. They are is not a permanent state. They are

:33:08.:33:09.

is not a permanent state. They are in and out of short-term, sporadic,

:33:09.:33:11.

in and out of short-term, sporadic, in and out of short-term, sporadic,

:33:11.:33:11.

often very poor-quality jobs. The often very poor-quality jobs. The

:33:11.:33:12.

often very poor-quality jobs. The often very poor-quality jobs. The

:33:12.:33:13.

idea that people have been out of idea that people have been out of

:33:13.:33:13.

idea that people have been out of work for two or three generations,

:33:13.:33:16.

work for two or three generations, work for two or three generations,

:33:16.:33:17.

that is a very, very rare that is a very, very rare

:33:17.:33:18.

that is a very, very rare phenomenon. You can't have it both

:33:18.:33:19.

phenomenon. You can't have it both phenomenon. You can't have it both

:33:19.:33:20.

ways, you can't accuse them of ways, you can't accuse them of

:33:20.:33:21.

ways, you can't accuse them of dividing people and also attacking

:33:21.:33:22.

dividing people and also attacking dividing people and also attacking

:33:22.:33:25.

the deserving poor, it sound like the deserving poor, it sound like

:33:25.:33:26.

the deserving poor, it sound like they are not dividing people they

:33:26.:33:28.

they are not dividing people they they are not dividing people they

:33:28.:33:29.

areing things for everybody? There areing things for everybody? There

:33:29.:33:31.

areing things for everybody? There is a tarring of all benefits

:33:31.:33:33.

is a tarring of all benefits is a tarring of all benefits

:33:33.:33:34.

recipient as not deserving. Which recipient as not deserving. Which

:33:34.:33:35.

recipient as not deserving. Which is extremely unfair to people who

:33:35.:33:38.

is extremely unfair to people who is extremely unfair to people who

:33:38.:33:39.

is extremely unfair to people who are desperate to work, who are, as

:33:39.:33:40.

are desperate to work, who are, as are desperate to work, who are, as

:33:40.:33:41.

Peter says, caring for family Peter says, caring for family

:33:41.:33:42.

Peter says, caring for family Peter says, caring for family

:33:42.:33:43.

members, who may be too sick to members, who may be too sick to

:33:44.:33:45.

members, who may be too sick to work. The problem is, while people

:33:45.:33:46.

work. The problem is, while people work. The problem is, while people

:33:46.:33:48.

feel rightly very angry if they feel rightly very angry if they

:33:48.:33:49.

feel rightly very angry if they feel system is being abused, the

:33:49.:33:50.

feel system is being abused, the feel system is being abused, the

:33:50.:33:52.

feel system is being abused, the levels of fraud is very low, 0.8%.

:33:52.:33:53.

levels of fraud is very low, 0.8%. levels of fraud is very low, 0.8%.

:33:53.:33:54.

levels of fraud is very low, 0.8%. That is not correct. Yes it is

:33:54.:33:55.

That is not correct. Yes it is That is not correct. Yes it is

:33:55.:33:56.

That is not correct. Yes it is correct. It is also the case that

:33:56.:33:57.

correct. It is also the case that correct. It is also the case that

:33:57.:33:58.

people don't know the circumstances people don't know the circumstances

:33:58.:33:59.

people don't know the circumstances of their neighbours, they know what

:33:59.:34:00.

of their neighbours, they know what of their neighbours, they know what

:34:00.:34:01.

of their neighbours, they know what they can see, but it is not obvious

:34:01.:34:02.

they can see, but it is not obvious they can see, but it is not obvious

:34:02.:34:04.

if someone has a mental health if someone has a mental health

:34:04.:34:05.

if someone has a mental health problem, we saw John and his

:34:05.:34:06.

problem, we saw John and his problem, we saw John and his

:34:06.:34:08.

serious mental health issues in the serious mental health issues in the

:34:08.:34:08.

serious mental health issues in the serious mental health issues in the

:34:09.:34:09.

earlier clip. I think it is quite earlier clip. I think it is quite

:34:09.:34:10.

earlier clip. I think it is quite difficult for people really to know

:34:10.:34:11.

difficult for people really to know difficult for people really to know

:34:11.:34:12.

difficult for people really to know what's going on. I think we have to

:34:12.:34:13.

what's going on. I think we have to what's going on. I think we have to

:34:13.:34:13.

what's going on. I think we have to find a very different way of having

:34:13.:34:15.

find a very different way of having find a very different way of having

:34:15.:34:16.

this discussion with the public, this discussion with the public,

:34:16.:34:18.

this discussion with the public, rather than simply allowing this

:34:18.:34:20.

rather than simply allowing this rather than simply allowing this

:34:20.:34:21.

rather than simply allowing this blame culture to extend. There is a

:34:21.:34:22.

blame culture to extend. There is a blame culture to extend. There is a

:34:22.:34:23.

blame culture to extend. There is a little point in blaming -- there is

:34:23.:34:24.

little point in blaming -- there is little point in blaming -- there is

:34:24.:34:25.

little point in blaming anybody. little point in blaming anybody.

:34:25.:34:26.

little point in blaming anybody. You have to introduce conditions,

:34:26.:34:28.

You have to introduce conditions, You have to introduce conditions,

:34:28.:34:29.

enforce them properly, so those who enforce them properly, so those who

:34:29.:34:30.

enforce them properly, so those who enforce them properly, so those who

:34:30.:34:31.

can work do work. Those who have an can work do work. Those who have an

:34:31.:34:32.

can work do work. Those who have an element of disability that doesn't

:34:32.:34:33.

element of disability that doesn't element of disability that doesn't

:34:33.:34:34.

prevent them work are helped into prevent them work are helped into

:34:34.:34:35.

prevent them work are helped into prevent them work are helped into

:34:35.:34:35.

work. That is what people want to work. That is what people want to

:34:36.:34:37.

work. That is what people want to see. Is that fairness, is that,

:34:37.:34:38.

see. Is that fairness, is that, see. Is that fairness, is that,

:34:38.:34:38.

see. Is that fairness, is that, when you are looking at the changes,

:34:38.:34:39.

when you are looking at the changes, when you are looking at the changes,

:34:39.:34:40.

when you are looking at the changes, when you are looking at the changes,

:34:40.:34:40.

do you think of it in terms it of do you think of it in terms it of

:34:40.:34:41.

do you think of it in terms it of do you think of it in terms it of

:34:41.:34:42.

fairness. Or do you think about it fairness. Or do you think about it

:34:42.:34:43.

fairness. Or do you think about it fairness. Or do you think about it

:34:43.:34:43.

in terms of saving money? We have in terms of saving money? We have

:34:43.:34:44.

in terms of saving money? We have in terms of saving money? We have

:34:44.:34:45.

seen there is a huge pressure on seen there is a huge pressure on

:34:45.:34:47.

seen there is a huge pressure on seen there is a huge pressure on

:34:47.:34:48.

the spending of money? It is unfair the spending of money? It is unfair

:34:48.:34:49.

the spending of money? It is unfair when it involves taking money from

:34:49.:34:51.

when it involves taking money from when it involves taking money from

:34:51.:34:52.

hard working people to give it hard working people to give it

:34:52.:34:53.

hard working people to give it people who could be hard working

:34:53.:34:54.

people who could be hard working people who could be hard working

:34:54.:34:55.

themselves. It is fairness and themselves. It is fairness and

:34:55.:34:56.

themselves. It is fairness and money saving behind it. Certainly,

:34:56.:34:57.

money saving behind it. Certainly, money saving behind it. Certainly,

:34:57.:34:59.

there are millions of people in there are millions of people in

:34:59.:35:00.

there are millions of people in this country who earn modest sums

:35:00.:35:01.

this country who earn modest sums this country who earn modest sums

:35:01.:35:04.

this country who earn modest sums of money, I wished they earned more,

:35:04.:35:07.

of money, I wished they earned more, of money, I wished they earned more,

:35:07.:35:09.

�25,000, �1500, and �10,000 a year, �25,000, �1500, and �10,000 a year,

:35:09.:35:09.

�25,000, �1500, and �10,000 a year, they are amazed that everyone would

:35:09.:35:12.

they are amazed that everyone would they are amazed that everyone would

:35:12.:35:14.

they are amazed that everyone would object to a cap of �26,000 on the

:35:14.:35:16.

object to a cap of �26,000 on the total benefit someone receives.

:35:16.:35:17.

total benefit someone receives. They are bewildered, everyone

:35:17.:35:18.

They are bewildered, everyone They are bewildered, everyone

:35:18.:35:19.

They are bewildered, everyone working has a natural cap on what

:35:19.:35:20.

working has a natural cap on what working has a natural cap on what

:35:20.:35:21.

they can afford. That is not they can afford. That is not

:35:21.:35:22.

they can afford. That is not raising very much money, in many

:35:22.:35:24.

raising very much money, in many raising very much money, in many

:35:24.:35:25.

ways the cap is symbolic, although ways the cap is symbolic, although

:35:25.:35:26.

ways the cap is symbolic, although ways the cap is symbolic, although

:35:26.:35:28.

it will affect some families a lot. it will affect some families a lot.

:35:28.:35:29.

it will affect some families a lot. There are, for every non-working

:35:29.:35:31.

There are, for every non-working There are, for every non-working

:35:31.:35:33.

household, that will be affected by household, that will be affected by

:35:33.:35:34.

household, that will be affected by household, that will be affected by

:35:34.:35:35.

the cut in real level of benefits, the cut in real level of benefits,

:35:35.:35:37.

the cut in real level of benefits, there is twois as many working-age

:35:37.:35:40.

there is twois as many working-age there is twois as many working-age

:35:40.:35:40.

-- twice as many working-age -- twice as many working-age

:35:40.:35:41.

-- twice as many working-age households, at the same time you

:35:41.:35:42.

households, at the same time you households, at the same time you

:35:42.:35:45.

say it working households will be say it working households will be

:35:45.:35:46.

affected. Seven million households affected. Seven million households

:35:46.:35:47.

affected. Seven million households affected. Seven million households

:35:47.:35:48.

will be affected? The bulk of tax will be affected? The bulk of tax

:35:48.:35:50.

will be affected? The bulk of tax credits introduced go to the Child

:35:50.:35:51.

credits introduced go to the Child credits introduced go to the Child

:35:51.:35:51.

credits introduced go to the Child Tax Credit which goes to people out

:35:51.:35:52.

Tax Credit which goes to people out Tax Credit which goes to people out

:35:53.:35:55.

Tax Credit which goes to people out Tax Credit which goes to people out

:35:55.:35:56.

of work as well as in work. The IFS of work as well as in work. The IFS

:35:56.:35:58.

of work as well as in work. The IFS says it is 2.5 million non-working

:35:58.:36:00.

says it is 2.5 million non-working says it is 2.5 million non-working

:36:00.:36:04.

households will lose out, seven households will lose out, seven

:36:04.:36:06.

million of working-age households. million of working-age households.

:36:06.:36:06.

Including housing benefit and Including housing benefit and

:36:06.:36:08.

Including housing benefit and council tax going to working people.

:36:08.:36:09.

council tax going to working people. council tax going to working people.

:36:09.:36:10.

council tax going to working people. The Child Tax Credit as poeter says,

:36:10.:36:14.

The Child Tax Credit as poeter says, The Child Tax Credit as poeter says,

:36:14.:36:15.

goes to working people, the Working goes to working people, the Working

:36:15.:36:16.

goes to working people, the Working Tax Credit which goes to working

:36:16.:36:17.

Tax Credit which goes to working Tax Credit which goes to working

:36:17.:36:17.

people. So you are saying nothing people. So you are saying nothing

:36:17.:36:19.

people. So you are saying nothing should be done about housing

:36:19.:36:21.

should be done about housing should be done about housing

:36:21.:36:23.

benefit, costing every house in the benefit, costing every house in the

:36:23.:36:24.

benefit, costing every house in the country �1,000 a year? Yes, of

:36:24.:36:26.

country �1,000 a year? Yes, of country �1,000 a year? Yes, of

:36:26.:36:27.

course, the problem is not the course, the problem is not the

:36:27.:36:28.

course, the problem is not the money going to individual families

:36:28.:36:30.

money going to individual families money going to individual families

:36:30.:36:31.

money going to individual families but the high rents. That could be

:36:31.:36:32.

but the high rents. That could be spent better? Absolutely, we

:36:32.:36:33.

spent better? Absolutely, we spent better? Absolutely, we

:36:33.:36:34.

shouldn't run away with the idea shouldn't run away with the idea

:36:34.:36:36.

shouldn't run away with the idea that these are families who are

:36:36.:36:37.

that these are families who are that these are families who are

:36:38.:36:39.

taking money and living some taking money and living some

:36:39.:36:40.

taking money and living some extravagant lifestyle. The money is

:36:40.:36:41.

extravagant lifestyle. The money is extravagant lifestyle. The money is

:36:41.:36:42.

going to landlords. Another piece going to landlords. Another piece

:36:42.:36:43.

going to landlords. Another piece going to landlords. Another piece

:36:43.:36:44.

of fairness, some would say, is the of fairness, some would say, is the

:36:44.:36:45.

of fairness, some would say, is the protection of benefits for the

:36:45.:36:47.

protection of benefits for the protection of benefits for the

:36:47.:36:48.

elderly. You mentioned it earlier. elderly. You mentioned it earlier.

:36:48.:36:49.

elderly. You mentioned it earlier. elderly. You mentioned it earlier.

:36:49.:36:50.

Peter Lilley, do you think it is Peter Lilley, do you think it is

:36:50.:36:52.

sustainable all that have sustainable all that have

:36:52.:36:54.

sustainable all that have protection that the fence around

:36:54.:36:55.

protection that the fence around protection that the fence around

:36:55.:36:56.

elderly benefit, going into the elderly benefit, going into the

:36:56.:36:59.

elderly benefit, going into the next election? I doubt it,

:36:59.:37:00.

next election? I doubt it, particularly the additional

:37:00.:37:01.

particularly the additional particularly the additional

:37:02.:37:03.

benefits that pensioners get, where benefits that pensioners get, where

:37:03.:37:05.

benefits that pensioners get, where we made a promise, probably an

:37:05.:37:06.

we made a promise, probably an we made a promise, probably an

:37:06.:37:08.

unwise promise before the last unwise promise before the last

:37:08.:37:08.

unwise promise before the last election. At least one could

:37:08.:37:09.

election. At least one could election. At least one could

:37:09.:37:11.

maintain the spirit of it, but maintain the spirit of it, but

:37:11.:37:12.

maintain the spirit of it, but raise the age at which people

:37:12.:37:13.

raise the age at which people raise the age at which people

:37:13.:37:14.

become entitled to free TV or become entitled to free TV or

:37:14.:37:15.

become entitled to free TV or travel. Do you think those things

:37:15.:37:16.

travel. Do you think those things travel. Do you think those things

:37:16.:37:17.

travel. Do you think those things should be on the table in the

:37:17.:37:17.

should be on the table in the should be on the table in the

:37:17.:37:18.

summer, for the new round of summer, for the new round of

:37:18.:37:22.

summer, for the new round of spending cuts we have talked about,

:37:22.:37:23.

spending cuts we have talked about, spending cuts we have talked about,

:37:23.:37:24.

�6-�10 billion? I don't think there �6-�10 billion? I don't think there

:37:24.:37:24.

�6-�10 billion? I don't think there is much likelihood, the Government

:37:24.:37:25.

is much likelihood, the Government is much likelihood, the Government

:37:25.:37:26.

is constrained by two things, one is constrained by two things, one

:37:26.:37:28.

is constrained by two things, one is constrained by two things, one

:37:28.:37:32.

the promises it made, and two, the the promises it made, and two, the

:37:32.:37:34.

the promises it made, and two, the Liberal Democrats who cave at most

:37:34.:37:34.

Liberal Democrats who cave at most Liberal Democrats who cave at most

:37:35.:37:36.

sensible reforms. What do you think sensible reforms. What do you think

:37:36.:37:37.

sensible reforms. What do you think they should do about elderly

:37:37.:37:38.

they should do about elderly they should do about elderly

:37:38.:37:39.

benefits? It is unsustainable. You benefits? It is unsustainable. You

:37:39.:37:40.

benefits? It is unsustainable. You cannot have it three-ways, in which

:37:40.:37:41.

cannot have it three-ways, in which cannot have it three-ways, in which

:37:41.:37:42.

cannot have it three-ways, in which it is always going to be the

:37:42.:37:43.

it is always going to be the it is always going to be the

:37:43.:37:46.

it is always going to be the highest, forever. It has to be just

:37:46.:37:48.

highest, forever. It has to be just highest, forever. It has to be just

:37:48.:37:49.

a one-term promise, done for a one-term promise, done for

:37:49.:37:50.

a one-term promise, done for electoral advantage. I think a lot

:37:50.:37:51.

electoral advantage. I think a lot electoral advantage. I think a lot

:37:51.:37:52.

of things the Government has done of things the Government has done

:37:52.:37:53.

of things the Government has done of things the Government has done

:37:53.:37:54.

are very good, I'm afraid that is are very good, I'm afraid that is

:37:54.:37:55.

are very good, I'm afraid that is not a long-term sustainable policy.

:37:55.:37:56.

not a long-term sustainable policy. not a long-term sustainable policy.

:37:56.:37:57.

Unless, of course, you keep on Unless, of course, you keep on

:37:57.:37:58.

Unless, of course, you keep on ratesing the pension age. If you

:37:58.:37:59.

ratesing the pension age. If you ratesing the pension age. If you

:37:59.:38:00.

ratesing the pension age. If you raise it to 9 -- raising the

:38:00.:38:01.

raise it to 9 -- raising the raise it to 9 -- raising the

:38:01.:38:02.

raise it to 9 -- raising the pension age. If you raise it to 90

:38:02.:38:04.

pension age. If you raise it to 90 pension age. If you raise it to 90

:38:04.:38:05.

pension age. If you raise it to 90 then there is no problem. You

:38:05.:38:06.

then there is no problem. You then there is no problem. You

:38:06.:38:07.

then there is no problem. You say in your book that the welfare

:38:07.:38:08.

say in your book that the welfare say in your book that the welfare

:38:08.:38:09.

say in your book that the welfare state lost its way from not having

:38:09.:38:11.

state lost its way from not having state lost its way from not having

:38:11.:38:11.

enough of a contributory principle. enough of a contributory principle.

:38:11.:38:12.

enough of a contributory principle. enough of a contributory principle.

:38:12.:38:13.

Government is trying to get back to Government is trying to get back to

:38:13.:38:14.

Government is trying to get back to the feeling that elderly people

:38:14.:38:15.

the feeling that elderly people the feeling that elderly people

:38:15.:38:15.

the feeling that elderly people have put into the system and now

:38:15.:38:16.

have put into the system and now have put into the system and now

:38:16.:38:17.

have put into the system and now they should get it back? We have

:38:17.:38:20.

they should get it back? We have had an unsustainable contributory

:38:20.:38:21.

had an unsustainable contributory had an unsustainable contributory

:38:21.:38:22.

system. One where it doesn't matter system. One where it doesn't matter

:38:22.:38:23.

system. One where it doesn't matter system. One where it doesn't matter

:38:23.:38:24.

how many people get old, it doesn't how many people get old, it doesn't

:38:24.:38:25.

how many people get old, it doesn't matter how many people are working,

:38:25.:38:26.

matter how many people are working, matter how many people are working,

:38:26.:38:27.

matter how many people are working, you are still Prom mitsing to give

:38:27.:38:29.

you are still Prom mitsing to give you are still Prom mitsing to give

:38:29.:38:33.

endless pensions to everybody. And endless pensions to everybody. And

:38:33.:38:34.

endless pensions to everybody. And that's been too unrealistic, you

:38:34.:38:36.

that's been too unrealistic, you that's been too unrealistic, you

:38:36.:38:38.

have an and reing population it have an and reing population it

:38:38.:38:39.

have an and reing population it can't work. -- reducing population,

:38:39.:38:40.

can't work. -- reducing population, can't work. -- reducing population,

:38:40.:38:42.

can't work. -- reducing population, it doesn't work. It is better to

:38:42.:38:45.

it doesn't work. It is better to it doesn't work. It is better to

:38:45.:38:47.

move to a contributory system which move to a contributory system which

:38:47.:38:49.

move to a contributory system which move to a contributory system which

:38:49.:38:49.

people control and can pass it on people control and can pass it on

:38:49.:38:51.

people control and can pass it on to beneficiaries if they don't pick

:38:51.:38:52.

to beneficiaries if they don't pick to beneficiaries if they don't pick

:38:52.:38:52.

to beneficiaries if they don't pick it up. Like the Chilean system, it

:38:52.:38:53.

it up. Like the Chilean system, it it up. Like the Chilean system, it

:38:53.:38:55.

it up. Like the Chilean system, it is their own money, and it means

:38:55.:38:57.

is their own money, and it means is their own money, and it means

:38:57.:38:58.

they don't have such a disincentive they don't have such a disincentive

:38:58.:38:59.

they don't have such a disincentive they don't have such a disincentive

:39:00.:39:01.

to save, they are forced to save. to save, they are forced to save.

:39:01.:39:02.

to save, they are forced to save. More of a contributery system, it

:39:02.:39:04.

More of a contributery system, it More of a contributery system, it

:39:04.:39:06.

More of a contributery system, it costs a lot of money? But there is

:39:06.:39:06.

costs a lot of money? But there is costs a lot of money? But there is

:39:07.:39:07.

strong popular support for people strong popular support for people

:39:07.:39:09.

strong popular support for people paying in and knowing when they

:39:09.:39:10.

paying in and knowing when they paying in and knowing when they

:39:10.:39:10.

paying in and knowing when they need to they will be able to draw

:39:10.:39:17.

need to they will be able to draw need to they will be able to draw

:39:17.:39:18.

out. I don't agree we should out. I don't agree we should

:39:18.:39:19.

personalise it, and everybody personalise it, and everybody

:39:19.:39:20.

personalise it, and everybody should be running their own fund.

:39:21.:39:22.

should be running their own fund. should be running their own fund.

:39:22.:39:23.

Part of social security is Part of social security is

:39:23.:39:24.

Part of social security is spreading risk across the whole

:39:24.:39:25.

spreading risk across the whole spreading risk across the whole

:39:25.:39:26.

population. It is very unfortunate population. It is very unfortunate

:39:26.:39:27.

population. It is very unfortunate population. It is very unfortunate

:39:27.:39:27.

that exactly at the time when we that exactly at the time when we

:39:27.:39:29.

that exactly at the time when we should be trying to improve and

:39:29.:39:31.

should be trying to improve and should be trying to improve and

:39:31.:39:31.

enhance the position of the enhance the position of the

:39:31.:39:33.

contributory principle in the contributory principle in the

:39:33.:39:34.

social security system, the social security system, the

:39:34.:39:35.

social security system, the Government is stripping it back, so

:39:35.:39:37.

Government is stripping it back, so Government is stripping it back, so

:39:37.:39:38.

it is time-limiting the Employment it is time-limiting the Employment

:39:38.:39:39.

it is time-limiting the Employment Support Allowance. You can't get

:39:39.:39:40.

Support Allowance. You can't get Support Allowance. You can't get

:39:40.:39:41.

away from the fact that social away from the fact that social

:39:41.:39:41.

away from the fact that social security spending is going up with

:39:41.:39:42.

security spending is going up with security spending is going up with

:39:42.:39:43.

security spending is going up with all the changes. How can you resist

:39:43.:39:44.

all the changes. How can you resist all the changes. How can you resist

:39:44.:39:45.

all the changes. How can you resist all the changes? It is going up

:39:45.:39:46.

all the changes? It is going up all the changes? It is going up

:39:46.:39:47.

because of the wider economic because of the wider economic

:39:47.:39:49.

because of the wider economic because of the wider economic

:39:49.:39:50.

failure and began to go up after failure and began to go up after

:39:50.:39:52.

failure and began to go up after recession, because of the automatic

:39:52.:39:55.

recession, because of the automatic recession, because of the automatic

:39:55.:39:57.

stablisers that kicked in. It has stablisers that kicked in. It has

:39:57.:39:58.

addressed long standing problems, addressed long standing problems,

:39:58.:39:59.

addressed long standing problems, the rise in pensioner and child

:39:59.:40:00.

the rise in pensioner and child the rise in pensioner and child

:40:00.:40:01.

poverty we saw over two decades poverty we saw over two decades

:40:01.:40:04.

poverty we saw over two decades before the return of Labour to

:40:04.:40:04.

before the return of Labour to before the return of Labour to

:40:04.:40:05.

before the return of Labour to power in 1997. The real trick is to

:40:05.:40:06.

power in 1997. The real trick is to power in 1997. The real trick is to

:40:06.:40:07.

get more people into employment. We get more people into employment. We

:40:07.:40:08.

get more people into employment. We get more people into employment. We

:40:08.:40:10.

would all agree on that. So more would all agree on that. So more

:40:10.:40:11.

would all agree on that. So more people are making a contribution,

:40:11.:40:12.

people are making a contribution, people are making a contribution,

:40:12.:40:14.

people are making a contribution, and the train is less, and has to

:40:14.:40:15.

and the train is less, and has to and the train is less, and has to

:40:15.:40:16.

and the train is less, and has to be rates of way -- drain is Leeds

:40:16.:40:17.

be rates of way -- drain is Leeds be rates of way -- drain is Leeds

:40:17.:40:18.

be rates of way -- drain is Leeds and the rates of pay. Before the

:40:18.:40:19.

and the rates of pay. Before the and the rates of pay. Before the

:40:19.:40:19.

and the rates of pay. Before the end of the programme we will have

:40:19.:40:21.

end of the programme we will have end of the programme we will have

:40:21.:40:22.

the front pages. But first, Britain the front pages. But first, Britain

:40:22.:40:23.

the front pages. But first, Britain the front pages. But first, Britain

:40:23.:40:24.

has a new bearer of the Eurovision has a new bearer of the Eurovision

:40:24.:40:25.

has a new bearer of the Eurovision has a new bearer of the Eurovision

:40:25.:40:27.

torch. Also a face from the past, torch. Also a face from the past,

:40:27.:40:28.

torch. Also a face from the past, the Welsh singer, Bonnie Tyler,

:40:28.:40:31.

the Welsh singer, Bonnie Tyler, the Welsh singer, Bonnie Tyler,

:40:31.:40:32.

the Welsh singer, Bonnie Tyler, best known for Total Eclipse of the

:40:32.:40:33.

best known for Total Eclipse of the best known for Total Eclipse of the

:40:33.:40:34.

Heart will represent this country Heart will represent this country

:40:34.:40:35.

Heart will represent this country in Sweden this summer. After

:40:35.:40:36.

in Sweden this summer. After Engelbert Humperdinck scraped in

:40:36.:40:38.

Engelbert Humperdinck scraped in Engelbert Humperdinck scraped in

:40:38.:40:39.

Engelbert Humperdinck scraped in second to bottom last year, is a

:40:39.:40:41.

second to bottom last year, is a second to bottom last year, is a

:40:41.:40:42.

star from yesteryear the best choi. star from yesteryear the best choi.

:40:42.:40:44.

star from yesteryear the best choi. Should we even care about the

:40:44.:40:46.

Should we even care about the Should we even care about the

:40:46.:40:47.

annual prospect of null points. annual prospect of null points.

:40:47.:40:48.

annual prospect of null points. annual prospect of null points.

:40:48.:40:48.

Steve Smith has been on the trail Steve Smith has been on the trail

:40:48.:40:49.

Steve Smith has been on the trail Steve Smith has been on the trail

:40:49.:40:50.

of the star and the men and women of the star and the men and women

:40:50.:40:51.

of the star and the men and women who have saddled the poor woman

:40:51.:40:58.

who have saddled the poor woman with a gig.

:40:58.:41:00.

with a gig. with a gig.

:41:00.:41:01.

with a gig. Yeah, what about cliff? Is he, I

:41:01.:41:03.

Yeah, what about cliff? Is he, I Yeah, what about cliff? Is he, I

:41:03.:41:06.

Yeah, what about cliff? Is he, I had no ytd? I know, I've got it?

:41:06.:41:07.

had no ytd? I know, I've got it? had no ytd? I know, I've got it?

:41:07.:41:08.

# I need a hero # I need a hero

:41:08.:41:09.

# I need a hero # I need a hero

:41:09.:41:10.

# I'm holding out for a hero # I'm holding out for a hero

:41:10.:41:11.

# I'm holding out for a hero # I'm holding out for a hero

:41:11.:41:12.

# Till the end of the night # Till the end of the night

:41:12.:41:13.

# Till the end of the night # Till the end of the night

:41:13.:41:14.

# Till the end of the night Yes it was me all along, and it was

:41:14.:41:15.

Yes it was me all along, and it was a reconstruction. But Newsnight

:41:15.:41:18.

a reconstruction. But Newsnight a reconstruction. But Newsnight

:41:18.:41:18.

understands that the process of understands that the process of

:41:18.:41:21.

understands that the process of anointing Bonnie Tyler as the UK's

:41:21.:41:23.

anointing Bonnie Tyler as the UK's anointing Bonnie Tyler as the UK's

:41:23.:41:24.

Eurovision entry did take place in Eurovision entry did take place in

:41:24.:41:25.

Eurovision entry did take place in Eurovision entry did take place in

:41:25.:41:26.

just this kind of, some might say, just this kind of, some might say,

:41:26.:41:27.

just this kind of, some might say, just this kind of, some might say,

:41:27.:41:28.

cloak and dagger way, in a room cloak and dagger way, in a room

:41:28.:41:29.

cloak and dagger way, in a room perhaps not entirely dissimilar to

:41:29.:41:36.

perhaps not entirely dissimilar to perhaps not entirely dissimilar to

:41:36.:41:37.

perhaps not entirely dissimilar to this. Yes, it's the girl from the

:41:37.:41:38.

this. Yes, it's the girl from the this. Yes, it's the girl from the

:41:38.:41:38.

this. Yes, it's the girl from the valleys, with a voice like a harp

:41:38.:41:40.

valleys, with a voice like a harp down a mine shaft.

:41:40.:41:42.

down a mine shaft. down a mine shaft.

:41:42.:41:43.

down a mine shaft. Back in the 80s the only thing

:41:43.:41:45.

Back in the 80s the only thing Back in the 80s the only thing

:41:45.:41:46.

bigger than Bonnie Tyler's ballads bigger than Bonnie Tyler's ballads

:41:46.:41:47.

bigger than Bonnie Tyler's ballads were her shoulder pads, and maybe

:41:47.:41:51.

were her shoulder pads, and maybe her hair spray.

:41:51.:41:52.

her hair spray. # Believe in me

:41:52.:41:54.

# Yeah # Yeah

:41:54.:41:57.

# Yeah # Yeah

:41:57.:41:59.

This is her today, with Beef In Me. This is her today, with Beef In Me.

:41:59.:42:01.

This is her today, with Beef In Me. The UK's entry for the Eurovision

:42:01.:42:02.

The UK's entry for the Eurovision The UK's entry for the Eurovision

:42:02.:42:03.

Song Contest. I think most people Song Contest. I think most people

:42:03.:42:04.

Song Contest. I think most people Song Contest. I think most people

:42:04.:42:05.

over the last few years have been over the last few years have been

:42:05.:42:06.

very disappointed with the very disappointed with the

:42:06.:42:09.

very disappointed with the very disappointed with the

:42:09.:42:09.

Eurovision, it is time for a change. Eurovision, it is time for a change.

:42:09.:42:15.

I'm the change. I'm the change.

:42:15.:42:16.

I'm the change. # So graceful and pure

:42:16.:42:18.

# So graceful and pure # So graceful and pure

:42:18.:42:20.

# And smile bathed in light. # And smile bathed in light.

:42:20.:42:21.

# And smile bathed in light. Remember last year, and Engelbert

:42:21.:42:23.

Remember last year, and Engelbert Remember last year, and Engelbert

:42:23.:42:23.

Humperdinck, I'm not saying he Humperdinck, I'm not saying he

:42:24.:42:25.

Humperdinck, I'm not saying he Humperdinck, I'm not saying he

:42:25.:42:26.

failed to rock the crowd, but they failed to rock the crowd, but they

:42:26.:42:27.

failed to rock the crowd, but they fell asleep half way through his

:42:27.:42:32.

fell asleep half way through his fell asleep half way through his

:42:32.:42:33.

name! The UK's last winners were name! The UK's last winners were

:42:34.:42:34.

name! The UK's last winners were Katrina and the Waves, we haven't

:42:34.:42:36.

Katrina and the Waves, we haven't Katrina and the Waves, we haven't

:42:36.:42:37.

Katrina and the Waves, we haven't got the wave, we think they have

:42:37.:42:39.

got the wave, we think they have got the wave, we think they have

:42:39.:42:41.

got the wave, we think they have drift aid part. But come in now at

:42:41.:42:43.

drift aid part. But come in now at drift aid part. But come in now at

:42:43.:42:43.

drift aid part. But come in now at Trina -- Katrina. Can you hear me,

:42:43.:42:45.

Trina -- Katrina. Can you hear me, Trina -- Katrina. Can you hear me,

:42:45.:42:48.

can you hear me, yes, hello, Katrina calling.

:42:48.:42:50.

Katrina calling. Katrina calling.

:42:50.:42:53.

Katrina calling. # We're all going to shine a light

:42:53.:42:53.

# We're all going to shine a light # We're all going to shine a light

:42:53.:42:54.

together. Bonnie Tyler is one of together. Bonnie Tyler is one of

:42:54.:42:55.

together. Bonnie Tyler is one of the greatest singers in the world.

:42:55.:42:56.

the greatest singers in the world. the greatest singers in the world.

:42:56.:42:57.

the greatest singers in the world. She has a great voice, she's going

:42:57.:42:59.

She has a great voice, she's going She has a great voice, she's going

:42:59.:43:00.

She has a great voice, she's going to be representing the UK with a

:43:00.:43:01.

to be representing the UK with a to be representing the UK with a

:43:01.:43:02.

to be representing the UK with a really great song. As far as I'm

:43:02.:43:03.

really great song. As far as I'm really great song. As far as I'm

:43:03.:43:05.

concerned it is all really, really concerned it is all really, really

:43:05.:43:06.

concerned it is all really, really good. That's what you honestly

:43:06.:43:09.

good. That's what you honestly good. That's what you honestly

:43:09.:43:11.

good. That's what you honestly think? Yeah, no I do really. Yes.

:43:11.:43:12.

think? Yeah, no I do really. Yes. think? Yeah, no I do really. Yes.

:43:12.:43:13.

Some people are saying, bless her, Some people are saying, bless her,

:43:13.:43:15.

Some people are saying, bless her, Bonnie, maybe her best days are

:43:15.:43:16.

Bonnie, maybe her best days are Bonnie, maybe her best days are

:43:17.:43:19.

behind her? She's only 61.Exactly. behind her? She's only 61.Exactly.

:43:19.:43:21.

behind her? She's only 61.Exactly. Look at Shirley Bassey, she

:43:21.:43:23.

Look at Shirley Bassey, she Look at Shirley Bassey, she

:43:23.:43:23.

absolutely rinsed the Oscars. absolutely rinsed the Oscars.

:43:23.:43:24.

absolutely rinsed the Oscars. absolutely rinsed the Oscars.

:43:24.:43:26.

the not so distant past we had a the not so distant past we had a

:43:26.:43:27.

the not so distant past we had a say in who represented the country

:43:27.:43:28.

say in who represented the country say in who represented the country

:43:28.:43:29.

say in who represented the country at the song fest. Although we ended

:43:29.:43:32.

at the song fest. Although we ended at the song fest. Although we ended

:43:32.:43:33.

at the song fest. Although we ended up with the likes of Scooch in 2007,

:43:33.:43:35.

up with the likes of Scooch in 2007, up with the likes of Scooch in 2007,

:43:35.:43:36.

on the night one judge mistakenly on the night one judge mistakenly

:43:36.:43:38.

on the night one judge mistakenly on the night one judge mistakenly

:43:39.:43:39.

gave a higher mark to a floor gave a higher mark to a floor

:43:39.:43:40.

gave a higher mark to a floor polisher. Over the past three years

:43:40.:43:43.

polisher. Over the past three years polisher. Over the past three years

:43:43.:43:44.

though, selecting our act by though, selecting our act by

:43:44.:43:45.

though, selecting our act by popular vote is something we have

:43:45.:43:47.

popular vote is something we have popular vote is something we have

:43:47.:43:48.

popular vote is something we have turned our backs on. Let's call in

:43:48.:43:49.

turned our backs on. Let's call in turned our backs on. Let's call in

:43:49.:43:51.

Fleet Street's finest. Yes, I can Fleet Street's finest. Yes, I can

:43:51.:43:52.

Fleet Street's finest. Yes, I can hear you Steve, this is Kevin

:43:52.:43:54.

hear you Steve, this is Kevin O'Sullivan. Handing the process

:43:54.:43:57.

O'Sullivan. Handing the process O'Sullivan. Handing the process

:43:57.:43:58.

over to this mysterious internal over to this mysterious internal

:43:58.:44:00.

over to this mysterious internal BBC system is very strange, almost

:44:00.:44:03.

BBC system is very strange, almost BBC system is very strange, almost

:44:03.:44:06.

sinister, really. This is always a sinister, really. This is always a

:44:06.:44:06.

sinister, really. This is always a people's contest and it has been

:44:06.:44:08.

people's contest and it has been people's contest and it has been

:44:08.:44:09.

people's contest and it has been taken out of our hands. And worse

:44:09.:44:10.

taken out of our hands. And worse taken out of our hands. And worse

:44:10.:44:11.

taken out of our hands. And worse than that the BBC seems to be

:44:11.:44:12.

than that the BBC seems to be than that the BBC seems to be

:44:12.:44:14.

delivering a series of terrible flops.

:44:14.:44:17.

flops. flops.

:44:17.:44:18.

This programme's worthless if it This programme's worthless if it

:44:18.:44:21.

This programme's worthless if it isn't a historical document. We can

:44:21.:44:22.

isn't a historical document. We can isn't a historical document. We can

:44:22.:44:24.

reveal that Bonnie Tyler got the reveal that Bonnie Tyler got the

:44:24.:44:25.

reveal that Bonnie Tyler got the gig after senior BBC managers heard

:44:25.:44:26.

gig after senior BBC managers heard gig after senior BBC managers heard

:44:26.:44:27.

gig after senior BBC managers heard her latest album. They came back to

:44:27.:44:28.

her latest album. They came back to her latest album. They came back to

:44:28.:44:29.

her latest album. They came back to and said there is a song on there

:44:29.:44:30.

and said there is a song on there and said there is a song on there

:44:31.:44:31.

and said there is a song on there we would love you to do for the

:44:32.:44:33.

we would love you to do for the we would love you to do for the

:44:33.:44:35.

Eurovision. I thought great, what Eurovision. I thought great, what

:44:35.:44:36.

Eurovision. I thought great, what Eurovision. I thought great, what

:44:36.:44:37.

better way to get my music to the better way to get my music to the

:44:37.:44:39.

better way to get my music to the better way to get my music to the

:44:39.:44:42.

rest of the world, it is fantastic. # Congratulations

:44:42.:44:43.

# Congratulations # And jubilations

:44:43.:44:44.

# And jubilations # And jubilations

:44:44.:44:45.

# And jubilations But will we ever be able to

:44:45.:44:48.

But will we ever be able to congratulate ourselves again?

:44:48.:44:51.

congratulate ourselves again? congratulate ourselves again?

:44:51.:44:53.

He's a right-wing blogger, but He's a right-wing blogger, but

:44:53.:44:55.

He's a right-wing blogger, but loves the euro, Eurovision that is.

:44:55.:44:58.

loves the euro, Eurovision that is. loves the euro, Eurovision that is.

:44:58.:45:00.

loves the euro, Eurovision that is. This is Ian Dale calling, this is

:45:00.:45:01.

This is Ian Dale calling, this is ununforeseen consequence of the

:45:01.:45:02.

ununforeseen consequence of the ununforeseen consequence of the

:45:02.:45:03.

fall of the Berlin wall. Margaret fall of the Berlin wall. Margaret

:45:03.:45:04.

fall of the Berlin wall. Margaret Thatcher when she welcomed that,

:45:04.:45:06.

Thatcher when she welcomed that, Thatcher when she welcomed that,

:45:06.:45:09.

never understood it would lead to never understood it would lead to

:45:09.:45:09.

never understood it would lead to us never winning the Eurovision

:45:09.:45:10.

us never winning the Eurovision us never winning the Eurovision

:45:10.:45:12.

Song Contest again. They all club Song Contest again. They all club

:45:12.:45:13.

Song Contest again. They all club together. It is a political thing,

:45:13.:45:14.

together. It is a political thing, together. It is a political thing,

:45:14.:45:15.

together. It is a political thing, together. It is a political thing,

:45:15.:45:15.

it can be I'm not going to vote for it can be I'm not going to vote for

:45:15.:45:16.

it can be I'm not going to vote for it can be I'm not going to vote for

:45:16.:45:17.

the UK because of this and that. the UK because of this and that.

:45:17.:45:20.

the UK because of this and that. the UK because of this and that.

:45:20.:45:21.

I'm not going to take it personally. I'm not going to take it personally.

:45:21.:45:22.

I'm not going to take it personally. I'm not going to take it personally.

:45:22.:45:26.

I will give it my bloody best shot! I will give it my bloody best shot!

:45:26.:45:27.

I will give it my bloody best shot! Well, just time for some of

:45:27.:45:30.

Well, just time for some of Well, just time for some of

:45:30.:45:31.

tomorrow's front pages now. One tomorrow's front pages now. One

:45:31.:45:41.
:45:41.:46:03.

That's all from us, we're here That's all from us, we're here

:46:03.:46:13.
:46:13.:46:36.

That's all from us, we're here Friday promises to be a dull and

:46:36.:46:38.

Friday promises to be a dull and Friday promises to be a dull and

:46:38.:46:39.

cloudy day, with outbreaks of rain cloudy day, with outbreaks of rain

:46:39.:46:39.

cloudy day, with outbreaks of rain affecting north eastern parts of

:46:39.:46:41.

affecting north eastern parts of affecting north eastern parts of

:46:41.:46:42.

the British Isles, another weather the British Isles, another weather

:46:42.:46:43.

the British Isles, another weather system moving up from France to

:46:44.:46:45.

system moving up from France to system moving up from France to

:46:45.:46:46.

potentially bring heavier bursts of potentially bring heavier bursts of

:46:46.:46:47.

potentially bring heavier bursts of rain into the southern part of

:46:47.:46:48.

rain into the southern part of England, particularly for Friday

:46:48.:46:50.

England, particularly for Friday England, particularly for Friday

:46:50.:46:51.

afternoon the along with the damp afternoon the along with the damp

:46:51.:46:52.

afternoon the along with the damp weather in the north-east, strong

:46:52.:46:53.

weather in the north-east, strong weather in the north-east, strong

:46:53.:46:54.

weather in the north-east, strong winds gusting at 30 miles an hour,

:46:54.:46:55.

winds gusting at 30 miles an hour, winds gusting at 30 miles an hour,

:46:55.:46:55.

winds gusting at 30 miles an hour, making it feel cold around the east

:46:55.:46:57.

making it feel cold around the east making it feel cold around the east

:46:57.:46:58.

making it feel cold around the east coast. It look like we will see

:46:58.:47:00.

coast. It look like we will see coast. It look like we will see

:47:00.:47:00.

coast. It look like we will see outbreak of fairly heavy rain for a

:47:00.:47:03.

outbreak of fairly heavy rain for a outbreak of fairly heavy rain for a

:47:03.:47:04.

time, seeping into southern England. time, seeping into southern England.

:47:04.:47:05.

time, seeping into southern England. Across the south west, after

:47:05.:47:06.

Across the south west, after Across the south west, after

:47:06.:47:07.

another murky start to the day, another murky start to the day,

:47:07.:47:09.

brightening up through the brightening up through the

:47:09.:47:09.

brightening up through the afternoon. Wales looks pretty damp

:47:09.:47:10.

afternoon. Wales looks pretty damp afternoon. Wales looks pretty damp

:47:10.:47:12.

through the afternoon. Most of this through the afternoon. Most of this

:47:12.:47:13.

through the afternoon. Most of this rain will be light, particularly

:47:13.:47:15.

rain will be light, particularly affecting eastern areas, something

:47:15.:47:17.

affecting eastern areas, something dryer into Pembrokeshire. In

:47:17.:47:18.

dryer into Pembrokeshire. In dryer into Pembrokeshire. In

:47:18.:47:19.

Northern Ireland it stays damp as Northern Ireland it stays damp as

:47:19.:47:20.

Northern Ireland it stays damp as Northern Ireland it stays damp as

:47:20.:47:21.

well for Antrim and Down. The best well for Antrim and Down. The best

:47:21.:47:22.

well for Antrim and Down. The best well for Antrim and Down. The best

:47:22.:47:23.

of the dry weather in London dery. of the dry weather in London dery.

:47:23.:47:24.

of the dry weather in London dery. of the dry weather in London dery.

:47:24.:47:25.

Even here the odd light shower. To Even here the odd light shower. To

:47:25.:47:26.

Even here the odd light shower. To the North West of Scotland the

:47:26.:47:28.

the North West of Scotland the the North West of Scotland the

:47:28.:47:30.

cloud should break, chances of cloud should break, chances of

:47:30.:47:32.

cloud should break, chances of sunshine, but eastern Scotland wet

:47:32.:47:42.
:47:42.:47:51.

sunshine, but eastern Scotland wet The wettest weather on Saturday

:47:51.:47:52.

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