02/05/2013 Newsnight


02/05/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Should we intervene in Syria and even if we wanted to could we

:00:14.:00:17.

afford to? Tonight the Defence Secretary says more evidence of

:00:17.:00:20.

chemical weapons is needed before Britain can act.

:00:20.:00:25.

But can Britain even think of remaining a first-rate military

:00:25.:00:29.

power as this Government hopes? Should we ring-fence the defence

:00:29.:00:34.

budget for curtail their ambitions? The Defence Secretary Philip

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Hammond in Washington for talks with the Americans will join us

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live. Also tonight, from Pakistan we meet

:00:41.:00:44.

the Mullah who thinks women should be educated to know their

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boundaries. He has some advice for our reporter.

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TRANSLATION: As a Muslim, first of all you should be wearing a burka,

:00:52.:00:56.

according to Sharia Law. Secondly, you shouldn't be travelling around

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without a male chaperone. The polls have just closed, the

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politicians are getting their excuses ready. We will have the

:01:03.:01:11.

latest on the local elections. And happy birthday Bollywood, 100

:01:11.:01:16.

years young tomorrow. How has it reflected Indian culture and

:01:16.:01:22.

informed snim film makers here. We discuss with a Bollywood actress

:01:22.:01:29.

and the director of Bride ska Prejudice.

:01:29.:01:33.

Good evening, the Cabinet Office website is clear, national security

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is the first duty of Government. We will remain a first-rate military

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power. But even as British troops begin to leave Afghanistan, there

:01:41.:01:45.

are new shaud shadows and threats. Tonight the American Defence

:01:45.:01:49.

Secretary, Chuck Hagel, said for the first time that the Obinna

:01:49.:01:53.

administration is re-thinking whether to arm -- Obama

:01:53.:01:57.

administration is re-thinking whether to arm rebels in Syria. No

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decision has been named. With this comes an age-old problem, money.

:02:02.:02:07.

With the security review and cuts to the budget already announced,

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the Royal United Services Institute suggests another �11 billion will

:02:09.:02:14.

have to be loped off defence over the next decade. Should we ring-

:02:14.:02:19.

fence defence, as with the NHS and foreign aid, or be less ambitious

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in our foreign commitments. We will explore with the Defence Secretary

:02:22.:02:29.

in a moment. First a series of hard choices.

:02:29.:02:38.

Just as Gordon Brown tried to abolish boom and bust economics, so

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they came to rescue the defence budget from its post-war boom with

:02:44.:02:48.

cuts to balance the books. In 2010, during the last review, they tried

:02:48.:02:53.

to set sustainable limits on future operations. The forces might mount

:02:53.:03:01.

one short-term deployment of up to 30,000. Or, one enduring one of

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6,500, with two smaller simultaneous operations of around

:03:06.:03:13.

2,000 and 1,000. Or three sustained small-scale operations. The current

:03:13.:03:18.

enduring commitment in Afghanistan is coming to an end. UK forces no

:03:18.:03:22.

longer launch combat operations, many are now just packing up. But

:03:22.:03:28.

their presence remains risky as we have seen this week. There are

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around 7,000 British personnel there now, and by late 2014 that

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presence will end. But military chiefs are nervous about new

:03:37.:03:41.

commitments. The Prime Minister wants to send more troops to Africa,

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and a possible Syrian intervention could involve thousands. The

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prospect of further cuts as part of the Government's deficit reduction

:03:51.:03:53.

programme has produced public grumbling from the Defence

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Secretary, Tory backbenchers are increasingly restive and demanding

:03:59.:04:02.

ring-fencing defence or raiding international development instead.

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Protecting up to now in order to make good the shortfall at MoD. And

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costs within the department have risen too, the F-35 fighter project

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has increased its price tag and is running years late. After

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expressing an initial interest in acquiring more than 130 of them,

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Britain looks set to trim that back to just 48. Both F-35 and the

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aircraft carrier that will launch the aircraft haven't been helped by

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a Government flip-flop. Initially towards a more capable, catapult-

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launched version of the plane and back to the short take-off version

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originally ordered. In terms of the cost of the aircraft carriers

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themselves, it was originally estimated at �3.65 billion, now

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around �6 billion, but some estimates suggest they soon

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eventually weigh in at something closer to �12 billion. Cost

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overruns have a history of consuming other parts of the

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defence budget, leading to cuts and cancellations. The slow but

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inexorable downLuiz Eduardo slide in squadrons or battalions has

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slowly reduced national forces. Therefore, it could be argued the

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UK's influence goes. Back in the 1950s 11% of Britain's economy or

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GDP was devoted to defence. For the last few years it has hovered

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around 2%. The UK's defence resources may have diminished but

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its leaders still like to retain an influence in world affairs.

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The Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, has been meeting with his

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US counterpart, Chuck Hagel, in Washington today. He joins us from

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there. Good evening to you Mr Hammond. Chuck Hagel says that the

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Americans are now re-thinking this question of arming the Syrian

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opposition, given the doubts that some have expressed, including

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yourself about whether chemical weapons really have been used or

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not, what is there to re-think? Well, the Americans have said today

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that they are re-thinking whether to use, whether to supply weapons

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to the opposition? We have never closed off that option. We

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currently have a European arms embargo which expires at the end of

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May. We haven't yet decided what approach we are going to take to

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any renewal on modification of that embargo. We want to keep all our

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options open as we work out the best way to deal with this

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despicable regime, which is slaughtering its people by the

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thousands. Indeed, but given the reports about chemical weapons what

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more do you need, what would be your red line? In terms,

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specifically of chemical weapon usage, I think we have been very

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clear that we have evidence which is quite compelling but is not

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conclusive around the use of chemical weapons. Now the use of

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chemical weapons is explicitly illegal under international law. If

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we are going to build an interNational Coalition behind a

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response to a use of chemical weapons, we have to have evidence

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that has happened. We need to build that evidence in a form that is

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incontravertable and can be present today the international community

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ideally in the forum of the United Nations Security Council. That is

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hugely difficult to do, to be 100% certain in a closed-off area, where

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chemical weapons have been used. Is it going to happen again and again

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and again, you will have evidence which is not going to be 100%, more

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people will die? Firstly, the United Nations of course has

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mandated a mission to Syria to investigate the use of chemical

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weapons. This was something that initial low the Syrian Government

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itself -- initially the Syrian Government itself encouraged. They

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are currently blocking access. We demand the Syrian Government admits

:08:03.:08:12.

the UN team and co-operates with the UN team. We are not looking

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solely on that route, we are looking with allies for ways to

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validate chemical weapons usage. wonder what you say to the very

:08:22.:08:27.

good friend of the UK, senator John McCain, saying you have all the

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evidence you need about the awfulness of this ray genome and

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chemical weapons but you are stalling because and the Obama

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administration don't want to get involved in a mess? We have plenty

:08:38.:08:43.

of evidence of the awfulness of the regime, but John McCain is wrong if

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he says we have conclusive evidence of the use of chemical weapons. We

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have certainly got some very persuasive evidence. If we set

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ourselves the test of whether this evidence would be persuasive in a

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UK or a US court we still don't have evidence of that quality.

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Given the experience that we have had in both the UK and the US in

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relation to the Iraq War and the evidence that was presented to

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support our intervention there, I think it is very clear that our

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publics will expect us to leave no stone unturned in establishing that

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the evidence is compelling and conclusive before we take any

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further action. Chuck Hagel also said you have been advising him

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today on how to cut defence budgets, what have you been tell him? We are

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a couple of years ahead of the US, I'm afraid, in this area. We

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carried out our defence review in 2010. Since then we have been

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restructuring the way we deliver defence. Making our Armed Forces

:09:51.:09:55.

smaller but better equipped and more agile. Focusing on

:09:55.:09:59.

deployability to make our forces usable. And also taking out large

:09:59.:10:04.

chunks of the Ministry of Defence, about a third of the civilian man

:10:04.:10:09.

power that we have in defence. Doing things differently. We

:10:09.:10:13.

announced just last week that we are moving into the next phase of a

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process of looking at bringing private sector partners into the

:10:18.:10:23.

procurement of defence equipment to try to overcome some of the long

:10:23.:10:26.

standing persistent problems that there have been around delivering

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these big equipment programmes on time and on budget. We have got

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quite a lot that we can offer the United States by way of experience.

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Also, by co-operating together with the US we can drive further

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efficencies in the delivery of military equipment and indeed in

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the delivery of military capability. You have further cuts ahead and the

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defence budget was about 4% of GDP20 years ago, it is 2% of GDP

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now. Should the defence budget be ring-fenced if national security is

:10:56.:11:06.
:11:06.:11:09.

the first duty of Government as the Cabinet Office website says.

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have to resource defence properly to cover the things outlined in the

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budget. Should it be ring-fenced? We have identified the outputs we

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have to deliver. We have to deliver those outputs. So it should be

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ring-fenced then? Ring-fencing implies that you fix the cash

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amount. What I'm more interested in is not the cash amount but the

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output that we are delivering. If there are more efficient, smarter

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ways of delivering the defence output that we need, then we

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absolutely should investigate those. For example, we currently spend

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about �7 billion a year on supporting our existing equipment

:11:49.:11:54.

in service. We have started to look with the Treasury, with the Cabinet

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Office at some of those contracts, how we could restructure them, how

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we could incentivise the contractors who support us in

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different ways to make that support of our equipment more efficient and

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more effective. That is a net win. As you know the NHS, schools and

:12:11.:12:14.

the foreign aid budget is supposedly ring-fenced, are you

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really going to argue they are more important than what is the first

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duty of Government? Well, look, those budgets are ring-fenced

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because we made commitments to ring-fence them. There is a very

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strong and cogent view that if politicians make promises, we made

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promises in both the case of the health budget and the overseas aid

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budget. Would you have to take money from those budgets to help

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out your budget? If we make promises we should stick to them.

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Health and defence have a very close collaboration already.

:12:48.:12:52.

Defence medical services is dependant on the NHS for staff to

:12:52.:12:59.

provide our frontline services in Afghanistan. The NHS supports us in

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that way. Defence medical services works very closely with the NHS, we

:13:04.:13:07.

should try to make that co- operation more efficient and more

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effective. Some of that loose change for first-rate military

:13:10.:13:14.

powers, with respect, you may make some very sound savings and you may

:13:14.:13:18.

be able to redistribute a bit of money, but this is not going to be

:13:18.:13:21.

the first-rate military power you would like and the military would

:13:21.:13:30.

like in the future, is it? The UK retains a broad speck strum

:13:30.:13:33.

military -- spectrum military capability. We are the United

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States's most capable partner, we intend to remain that way. We will

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still have, even after this process the fourth-largest defence budget

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in the world. So don't let's talk ourselves down. Let's focus on what

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we are doing to make sure that the budget we have delivers the maximum

:13:51.:13:53.

possible amount of military capability. Not just expressed in

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terms of numbers, but expressed in terms of their ability to deliver

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military effect. There are many countries around the world with

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bigger militaries than our's, they are not as deployable or as usable

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or as effective. Just a final thought on the big political topic

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tonight, which is obviously the polls have closed, the mid-term

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elections in which local Government elections, mid-term Governments

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usually get hammered, is that what you were expecting? Well, we're a

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mid-term Government, we are a Government that has taken some

:14:25.:14:29.

incredibly tough decisions to clean up the mess that we interited from

:14:29.:14:33.

the previous Labour Government -- inherited from the previous

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Government. We are also fighting these elections over a high water

:14:39.:14:42.

mark of discontent with the previous Government when the last

:14:42.:14:47.

local elections were held. We are expecting to lose seats, any point

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in this cycle against that backdrop would be expect to go lose seats.

:14:50.:14:54.

Labour has to make significant gains to have any credibility at

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all. Have you decided as a party whether UKIP are a bunch of clowns

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and loonies, as some leading Conservatives think, or whether

:15:01.:15:05.

they are actually just disaffected Conservatives who should be brought

:15:05.:15:12.

back into the fold? I think UKIP represents the disaffected of the

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electorate. There always has to be a party which people who are just

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disaffected with politics can vote for. For much of the last few

:15:24.:15:27.

decades the Liberal Democrats provided that role. But now they

:15:27.:15:32.

are a part of the Government many dissident voters who simply want to

:15:32.:15:36.

say "none of the above" will have to find a new place to go. I

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suspect that UKIP is attracting some of those voters. I shouldn't

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avoid the fact that the agenda that UKIP has put forward has identified

:15:46.:15:50.

some issues which are of concern to voters, not just Conservatives, but

:15:50.:15:56.

across the spectrum. And it is a challenge, a quite proper challenge,

:15:56.:15:58.

to the mainstream political parties to address those concerns, take

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them head on and deal with them if we want to persuade those voters

:16:03.:16:07.

that come the general election they should vote Conservative in order

:16:07.:16:11.

to get a Government which is committed to a referendum on the

:16:11.:16:15.

European Union and committed to renegotiating with the European

:16:15.:16:20.

Union the terms on which we would be prepared to remain members of

:16:20.:16:21.

that union. Secretary of State thank you very

:16:22.:16:29.

much for joining us from Washington. Still to come:

:16:29.:16:39.
:16:39.:16:39.

Hurray for Bollywood, celebrating 100 years of Indian cinema.

:16:39.:16:43.

The polls have closed, the excuses are being made ready by politicians

:16:43.:16:46.

of the various parties who perhaps expect to do less well than

:16:46.:16:50.

expected. It will take a while to figure out who is up and who is

:16:50.:16:54.

down, the local elections in many areas of England and Wales, but our

:16:54.:16:58.

political editor joins us from the count in Harlow in Essex.

:16:58.:17:01.

A lot of people are doing their expectation management, or

:17:01.:17:06.

preparing to do so. I wondered if you can cut through it and tell us

:17:06.:17:10.

what is going on? Gavin that is incredibly hard in the best of

:17:11.:17:14.

years but this year even more so. This is the first one where UKIP

:17:14.:17:18.

makes its splash and we figure out just how much water is displaced

:17:18.:17:21.

around the country. Downing Street are briefing they are expecting

:17:21.:17:30.

losses for the Conservatives of around 550, 5780 80. -- 580. If you

:17:30.:17:34.

slash off 150 that is about 400 losses, the last time they won

:17:34.:17:37.

these was at high water mark before the last election and Gordon Brown

:17:37.:17:41.

was doing badly. 400 is what independent analysts are telling us

:17:41.:17:45.

what they will get. The losses are bad, but I don't think it is

:17:45.:17:49.

Armageddon, especially when you look at the UKIP unknown factor.

:17:49.:17:53.

One of the things choppy in every party HQ this evening is exactly

:17:53.:17:56.

how UKIP has affected that. People can't quite call it when orderly

:17:56.:18:00.

about this time of night you do get some certain ideas. Somewhere like

:18:00.:18:04.

here in Essex where the boxes have come in, I think Labour have

:18:04.:18:08.

probably done pretty well. Labour are quietly confident this evening.

:18:08.:18:13.

They get a around possibly, and it falls here, they could be looking

:18:13.:18:17.

at 350 gains. Again last time it was a very, very low point for them.

:18:17.:18:22.

So 350 is sort of where they should be getting, equally if they weren't

:18:22.:18:25.

getting it you can be sure they will be in for a kicking tomorrow.

:18:25.:18:33.

We don't quit he -- quite know. UKIP, if it does end up being

:18:33.:18:37.

isolated on the right flank, it end up seeing some Lib Dems coming

:18:37.:18:41.

through the middle, then that last fiendish question, the trouble for

:18:41.:18:45.

me with UKIP, one of them is their own ranks brief different things.

:18:45.:18:48.

When you are trying to bust the spin, you are trying to bust the

:18:48.:18:53.

spin within them. Some are saying yeah that 100 is still within sight,

:18:53.:18:57.

they crested and give everyone a shock. Others are saying, no, we

:18:57.:19:01.

really do have a problem of being spread so evenly across the country

:19:01.:19:05.

that actually we can't achieve the spikes we need to be getting the

:19:05.:19:09.

council seats they think about 40, 50. Independent people I speak to,

:19:09.:19:13.

who have their own little secret models think that is probably more

:19:13.:19:17.

right. We just simply do not know, it will probably be about lunchtime

:19:17.:19:20.

tomorrow when we begin to get a certain idea. I suppose that means

:19:20.:19:23.

it won't tell us much about the result of the next general election,

:19:24.:19:28.

but it might tell us, the campaign might tell us about how the general

:19:28.:19:33.

election will be fought? Locals rarely tell you very much about a

:19:34.:19:36.

general election in two years time. What I think about the locals is

:19:36.:19:41.

they will set the weather for how that drum beat towards it is fought.

:19:41.:19:44.

You have already seen it with the Prime Minister two days ago saying

:19:44.:19:47.

what he said about possibly bringing forward the EU referendum

:19:47.:19:51.

date. What we will figure out this evening, when we see what happens

:19:51.:19:54.

in South Shields, the by-election also coming in, that looks like

:19:54.:20:01.

UKIP come a very, very good secretary with the Tories and Lib

:20:01.:20:04.

Dems collapsing. If you have UK doing well around the country and

:20:05.:20:09.

in the north they become a National Party, something you can't say of

:20:09.:20:11.

Labour or the Tories at the moment. They scramble both ends in terms it

:20:11.:20:18.

of Labour and the Tories. You begin to get both those leaders starting

:20:18.:20:22.

to tailor their policies to show they are listening. For the reasons

:20:22.:20:25.

that Philip Hammond has said, which is all the mainstream parties have

:20:25.:20:29.

questions to answer about a massive disengagment. We have been out in

:20:29.:20:33.

Harlow and Essex today we have heard that from almost everybody we

:20:33.:20:36.

have spoken to. I don't think you can, as ever, read into the general

:20:36.:20:41.

election, what you do see is policies being tailored to take on

:20:41.:20:48.

the U kill. Trend. One massive health -- UKIP. One massive health

:20:48.:20:53.

warning is yes they may have a trend tomorrow, and a good year

:20:53.:20:57.

next year with the European elections, we still don't know if

:20:57.:21:01.

they have an apparatus for a general election victory, one seat,

:21:01.:21:05.

ten seats. We don't know if that is in their sights, whether they are

:21:05.:21:09.

happy to be scrambling the signal in Westminster, but not really ever

:21:09.:21:15.

going to Westminster. Thank you very much. Imagine, if

:21:15.:21:18.

you can, that some religious leader where you live decides that today

:21:18.:21:23.

is No Women Day on the streets of your home town. Precisely that was

:21:23.:21:26.

happening in parts of Pakistan. A country which is shortly to go to

:21:26.:21:30.

the polls with all the trappings of an election in a vigorous democracy.

:21:30.:21:35.

The shooting of a schoolgirl last year, now worldwide known as Malala,

:21:35.:21:39.

for the supposed crime of daring to want an education, shows that

:21:39.:21:43.

Pakistan remains a country in which some places even the most basic of

:21:43.:21:47.

rights or ambitions can be denied women and girls. The shooting took

:21:47.:21:52.

place as Malala and her school friends sat on a school bus in the

:21:52.:21:55.

Swat Valley, which has seen intense fighting between the army and the

:21:55.:22:00.

Taliban. The BBC's Nel Hedayat, who grew up in Pakistan, has returned

:22:00.:22:03.

to the country to find out what the story of Malala might mean for the

:22:03.:22:12.

way the country is going, whatever the elections decide.

:22:12.:22:16.

I have arrived in Pakistan 18 years since I left the country I grew up

:22:16.:22:22.

in. I was born in Kabul, but crossed the border seeking refuge

:22:22.:22:25.

from the mujahideen and Taliban and spent six years living here. I

:22:25.:22:30.

remember turning on the TV on the 9th October 2012 and seeing images

:22:30.:22:34.

of a small girl on a stretcher, with the news reader saying she was

:22:34.:22:40.

shot by the Taliban for campaigning for girls' education. I remembered

:22:40.:22:44.

Pakistan as somewhere safe for girls like us to grow up in. What

:22:44.:22:48.

happened to Malala in the Swat Valley shocked me. I wanted to find

:22:48.:22:51.

out how something like this could happen and what the girls on whose

:22:51.:22:58.

behalf she was fighting for are going through.

:22:58.:23:02.

I'm on my way to meet Malala's close friends. They are not as well

:23:02.:23:08.

known as Malala, but they were also shot when the Taliban opened fire

:23:08.:23:16.

inside their school bus. The girls have lived all their lives in Swat,

:23:16.:23:21.

and tell me what it was like when the Taliban came in. TRANSLATION:

:23:21.:23:26.

We still remember the days when our school would open for one day and

:23:26.:23:30.

close for ten. Nobody could concentrate on their education.

:23:30.:23:34.

When we went outside the market was shut, there was nothing to eat, and

:23:34.:23:42.

they tell us to wear a burka. girls tell me they would often tune

:23:42.:23:47.

into Taliban FM to find out if the Mullah had declared a No Women Day

:23:47.:23:51.

on the streets of Swat. TRANSLATION: They didn't want girls

:23:51.:23:56.

to get an education, they made it impossible for us to go to school.

:23:56.:23:59.

We couldn't even wear our school uniforms because that would

:23:59.:24:03.

identify us as students and put our lives in danger. We were scared.

:24:03.:24:08.

But Malala is the kind of girl that even in those circumstances she

:24:08.:24:13.

chose to write her diary. She didn't write it against them, she

:24:13.:24:17.

wrote it about herself, about what was happening every day and that it

:24:17.:24:24.

shouldn't be happening and why was it happening? The Taliban wanted to

:24:24.:24:28.

control every aspect of life in Swat, and they did it by using

:24:28.:24:38.
:24:38.:24:39.

terror. Bombings, executions and flogs in the market became a part

:24:39.:24:43.

of life. At its worst the Taliban blew up over 400 schools in Swat

:24:43.:24:47.

alone. The situation got so bad that the girls had to abandon their

:24:48.:24:51.

homes. The Pakistani army moved in to fight the Taliban and the second

:24:51.:25:01.
:25:01.:25:02.

battle of Swat began. TRANSLATION: When we finally went whack to Swat,

:25:02.:25:09.

we saw so much blood. What did you see? TRANSLATION: I saw a man lying

:25:09.:25:17.

dead near our home. TRANSLATION: Everything was destroyed, but we

:25:17.:25:21.

were happy to be home. Although it was rubble it was still our home

:25:21.:25:30.

town. Despite the offence ive by the Pakistani army -- offensive by

:25:30.:25:34.

the Pakistan army that left the girls' home town like this, then

:25:34.:25:37.

came the attack on the school bus that nearly killed their friend

:25:37.:25:43.

Malala and injured them. This man came and shot young girls, why? Did

:25:43.:25:49.

you know why? TRANSLATION: Why did he shoot us? Because they don't

:25:49.:25:52.

believe girls should go to school. But that is what Malala questioned

:25:52.:25:57.

and what she campaigned for, it is probably why she got attacked. But

:25:57.:26:01.

how could we know what they were thinking, what went through their

:26:01.:26:11.

minds to shoot small, young girls. I don't know. Malala is now living

:26:11.:26:15.

with her father in Birmingham, where she goes to school and

:26:15.:26:20.

receives treatment. But the girls still live in Swat, they go to

:26:20.:26:23.

school, but have armed guards, always fearing that the peace

:26:23.:26:27.

offered by the army's presence there may not stop an attack by the

:26:27.:26:32.

Taliban. A few months ago there was an explosion behind one of the

:26:32.:26:37.

girl's houses, it scared her and her family. TRANSLATION:

:26:37.:26:40.

neighbours said I was the target, but that they missed and hit our

:26:40.:26:46.

neighbour's house. What's happened that day in October has changed

:26:46.:26:49.

their lives completely. Spending a day with the girls I can see that

:26:49.:26:53.

they still live in fear of the Taliban. But this hasn't deterred

:26:53.:26:56.

them. They believe in Malala's message and will make sure it lives

:26:56.:27:02.

on in Swat. TRANSLATION: Our fight is for education, they say that

:27:02.:27:07.

girls shouldn't get an education, we say girls will get an education.

:27:07.:27:12.

Because it is our right. If it had said in Islam that we shouldn't be

:27:12.:27:14.

educated then our parents would have stopped us. But our parents

:27:14.:27:18.

support us and tell us that whatever our ambition is we should

:27:18.:27:23.

try to achieve it. So this is the thing that everybody, everybody

:27:23.:27:26.

should fight for. Because it is through education that man walked

:27:27.:27:35.

on the moon. The fight goes on, although it is the constitutional

:27:35.:27:40.

right of all children to go to school here, Pakistan has the

:27:40.:27:44.

second highest rate of children not in education in the world, reaching

:27:44.:27:50.

5.1 million, three million of which are girls. And it has got worse as

:27:50.:27:55.

the Government has continuously cut funding. In fact Pakistan spends

:27:55.:27:59.

seven-times more on its military than primary education. But there

:27:59.:28:03.

are certain types of schools that are thriving. Mainly because they

:28:03.:28:10.

are free for the poor. I'm at the one of the branches of the Red

:28:10.:28:16.

Mosque, the famous mosque in Pakistan. I'm going to meet the man

:28:16.:28:22.

who runs the women's Madras sa, the Islamic school for -- Madrassah,

:28:22.:28:27.

the Islamic school for girls. And I can meet his wife as well and learn

:28:27.:28:35.

what do girls learn there and what is the point of this school? The

:28:35.:28:40.

Red Mosque became the battleground between the hardline followers of

:28:40.:28:46.

the Madrassah leader and the Pakistani army in 2007. The

:28:46.:28:50.

Government launched its offensive in response to vigilante action

:28:50.:28:54.

carried out by the female students. During the clashes both men and

:28:54.:28:59.

women were armed and fought hard against the Government forces.

:28:59.:29:03.

After nine days of intense violence from both sides, the Mullah had

:29:03.:29:10.

lost and dozens of students were killed. I'm about to meet the

:29:10.:29:14.

Mullah himself, a powerful man with thousands of devoted followers, man

:29:14.:29:18.

who has been linked to the Taliban. For me to be here is a really big

:29:18.:29:28.
:29:28.:29:40.

deal. For them to even speak to me is a big deal. I spent over two

:29:40.:29:44.

hours with the Mullah and he was meticulous in his efforts to never

:29:44.:29:51.

look directly at me, as this would be unIslamic in his view. One of

:29:51.:29:57.

his disciples did make the mistake and he was quickly reprimanded. He

:29:57.:30:04.

told hem h him to look down and not to look at me. For the Mullah, what

:30:04.:30:08.

Islam says about your place in society is what matters most and

:30:08.:30:11.

that's what the thousands of female students that come through the

:30:12.:30:17.

Madrassah learn. TRANSLATION: woman has boundaries she has to

:30:17.:30:22.

live within in, and men have boundaries too, without these

:30:22.:30:26.

boundaries society would disintegrate, as it has in the west.

:30:26.:30:30.

Unfortunately there, women have become play things. I'm an educated

:30:30.:30:33.

girl, I'm a journalist, I travel the world. In your opinion I

:30:33.:30:38.

probably may be step outside of that Islamic boundaries. Is what

:30:38.:30:42.

I'm doing wrong? TRANSLATION: Muslim first of all you should be

:30:43.:30:46.

wearing a burka, according to Sharia Law. Secondly, you shouldn't

:30:46.:30:50.

be travelling around without a male chaperone, it is not right for you

:30:50.:30:53.

to travel abroad without a male chaperone.

:30:53.:30:56.

It becomes clear that the Mullah is not against the education of women,

:30:56.:31:01.

so long as it is the right type. So what did he think about Malala and

:31:01.:31:06.

her campaign for girls' education? TRANSLATION: She is a human being

:31:06.:31:10.

and we would never support the terrible thing that happened to her.

:31:10.:31:20.
:31:20.:31:23.

It grieved us. What was she saying that was different? Whoever she is?

:31:23.:31:27.

TRANSLATION: There was a reason, she talked about being open-minded

:31:27.:31:31.

and liberal on the Internet. She said there is no need for the veil,

:31:31.:31:40.

and she always spoke against Islam, that is why the west like her. She

:31:40.:31:43.

crossed Islamic boundaries and that is wrong. Islam doesn't allow you

:31:44.:31:48.

to cross those boundaries, we don't like her crossing them, we

:31:48.:31:58.
:31:58.:31:58.

appreciate her educational endeavours. The temporary building

:31:58.:32:04.

that houses Madrassah, is packed full of students devoted to the

:32:04.:32:09.

learning of Islam. So much so that on an average day up to 80% of the

:32:09.:32:14.

students' time is spent learning about it and 20% on "other"

:32:14.:32:23.

subjects. They observe the strictest form of Islam which means

:32:23.:32:28.

male teachers aren't allowed in the room and teaching is done through

:32:28.:32:34.

speakers and microphones. It is like the most unusual lesson in the

:32:34.:32:38.

world, the teacher is not present in the room. That loud tannoy is

:32:38.:32:42.

the teacher, and all these are the students, because it is so

:32:42.:32:48.

important for men and women to be separate it is mandatory this

:32:48.:32:52.

classroom hasn't got a teacher in it. It comes down to the Mullah's

:32:52.:32:56.

wife to take charge of the day-to- day running of the female section

:32:56.:33:05.

of the Madrassah. Umme Hasaan sets an example to her many followers

:33:05.:33:12.

and pupils who reveer her. She was in the Red Mosque in 2007, she

:33:12.:33:22.
:33:22.:33:22.

fought alongside her husband. TRANSLATION: We asked Mushtaq's

:33:22.:33:28.

Government to implement -- Musharraf's Government to implement

:33:29.:33:33.

Sharia Law and then they attacked the Madrassah and they killed my

:33:33.:33:39.

son, my brother-in-law, my mother and lots of students. This has only

:33:39.:33:43.

made her more fefr vent in her beliefs and more determined to pass

:33:43.:33:48.

on her passion for Islam. Islamic studies is number one, everything

:33:48.:33:54.

else is number two. Everything else? Yes, science, English,

:33:54.:33:59.

mathematics, computers. Basic studies is number two. First in

:33:59.:34:09.
:34:09.:34:13.

Islam. Look the Taliban have said girls should be educated but no co-

:34:13.:34:18.

education. We met with them before the attack on the Madrassah. The

:34:18.:34:22.

Government asked us to invite them over and talk to them about

:34:22.:34:32.
:34:32.:34:33.

education. You know their scarves, their His Majesty jab do they match

:34:33.:34:39.

on purpose -- She believes that it is the burka that gives her and

:34:39.:34:46.

other women the power to do what they have to do. TRANSLATION:

:34:46.:34:49.

burka gives me safety, if I have meetings with the Government I wear

:34:49.:34:53.

my burka and I feel very comfortable. I have seen they

:34:53.:35:00.

respect it. When I go there they stand up for me. For women like you

:35:00.:35:08.

they wouldn't stand up. When I sit down then they sit down. This burka

:35:08.:35:18.
:35:18.:35:18.

compels them to respect me. Me and you are very different. I asked her

:35:19.:35:23.

if she thought of herself as extremist? TRANSLATION: Yes I am,

:35:23.:35:28.

what is wrong with that. If you asked a doctor if he's a doctor why

:35:28.:35:34.

would he be ashamed of that. He has to say, yes I am. You are happy to

:35:34.:35:38.

call yourself extremist? TRANSLATION: Yes, I am and I'm

:35:38.:35:43.

happy about it. Her views may be extreme, but they are not uncommon.

:35:43.:35:48.

A recent survey of 5,000 young Pakistanis suggest over half

:35:48.:35:51.

believe the current democratic system has not been good for the

:35:51.:35:58.

people. What's more they prefer a Sharia system over democracy.

:35:58.:36:01.

Malala and the girls have taken on the fight for better education for

:36:01.:36:04.

millions of girls here, but whatever form it comes in getting

:36:05.:36:13.

it is still a long way away. If you want to find out more about

:36:13.:36:18.

Malala's story and girls' education in Pakistan look out for Nel's

:36:18.:36:23.

documentary on BBC Three next month. A cultural milestone, it has been

:36:23.:36:27.

loved, it has been admired, copied and a true sign of worldwide

:36:27.:36:33.

significance, it has been parodyed. Now Indian cinema celebrates its

:36:33.:36:43.
:36:43.:36:44.

100th birthday. We have been looking at how it looks aged 100.

:36:44.:36:49.

Hurray for bowl wood. This is a new release hitting the Indian

:36:49.:36:54.

multiplexes in a few weeks time. Singing, dancing, young love. It is

:36:54.:37:00.

not everyone's cup of tea. But a billion people can't be wrong.

:37:00.:37:04.

love going to the cinema, it is part of the culture, cinema,

:37:04.:37:09.

cricket, it is kind of a celebration to go to their

:37:09.:37:14.

favourite actors' movies. They taken a entire family. It is an

:37:14.:37:24.
:37:24.:37:24.

expensive date. This was the first- ever Indian film. A black and white

:37:24.:37:28.

silent movie, released 100 years ago tomorrow. We found out some

:37:28.:37:37.

interesting detail about how long it was. 3,700 feet. Over the years

:37:37.:37:41.

a recoginsable bowl wood style and sensibility evolved. The producers

:37:41.:37:51.
:37:51.:37:54.

put all the money up on the screen. Or else they gave an Indian flavour

:37:54.:38:00.

to familiar genres, like the cowboy film. This was a kind of tanned

:38:01.:38:05.

doory western. Not everything -- tandoori western, not everything

:38:05.:38:07.

crosses over says our man in the stalls. It is all about

:38:07.:38:13.

relationships and emotions. Something like Bond will probably

:38:13.:38:18.

not work in India. Audiences in India would say "is he married",

:38:18.:38:25.

"where does he live", "who is his mum"? With the Bollywood film we

:38:25.:38:29.

have the traditional masala formula which is every single different

:38:29.:38:33.

blend, we have songs, comedy, dances, action. It all ends happily

:38:33.:38:42.

ever after. 15 million people watch films in India every day. And while

:38:42.:38:46.

Hollywood produces a buttock- stiffening 500 films every year,

:38:46.:38:52.

twice as many are made on the sub- continent. They took almost �2

:38:52.:38:57.

billion at the box-office in 2011. That's expected to be more like �3

:38:57.:39:05.

billion within three years. One veteran of almost 5000 movies, that

:39:05.:39:10.

is six month's worth says cinema is one of India's great communal

:39:10.:39:18.

experiences. What expects India sometimes is cinema. When you are

:39:18.:39:22.

sitting in a cinema hall you are not rich, you are not poor, you are

:39:22.:39:25.

not north Indian or south Indian, you are not a Muslim or a Hindu,

:39:25.:39:33.

you are just part of an audience. That is why I always say the

:39:33.:39:40.

hierarchy in India is good, doctors and actors! Some of those watching

:39:40.:39:45.

in the dark find big bold Bollywood movies speak to them when the

:39:45.:39:51.

culture outside is less friendly. Bollywood is probably the gayest

:39:51.:39:58.

place I know, but no-one talks about it. It is very much still in

:39:58.:40:03.

the Bolly-closet. The audiences may be secretly gay, but as the society

:40:03.:40:11.

demands within India they must be married. Is this Bollywood? Well it

:40:11.:40:17.

is Indian, but it is gritty, contemporary. Some say the industry

:40:17.:40:25.

has a crisis of identity. I think Bollywood is confused in 2013. It

:40:25.:40:28.

is aimless and does not really know where it is going. The traditional

:40:28.:40:32.

formula has been redefined, but redefined into what? We have

:40:33.:40:37.

shorter films, last week I saw a Bollywood horror film. But guess

:40:37.:40:40.

what? They still insisted on including two unnecessary songs. I

:40:40.:40:49.

love my song and dance, but not in a Bollywood horror film, rated 18.

:40:49.:40:53.

The future could be fusion, a British-Asian director was

:40:53.:41:01.

responsible for this reworking of Jane Austen. He is about to

:41:01.:41:06.

transform into the Indian MC Hammer! With me now is the director

:41:06.:41:11.

of that film, and the actress who starred in a number of British and

:41:11.:41:15.

Indian films. I wondered if over the years, say since the 50s and

:41:15.:41:20.

60s, the kinds of movies had changed or whether they remained

:41:20.:41:25.

constant? Tremenduously. All movies I remember when I was in India as a

:41:25.:41:30.

young girl, they always had a moral message for the society. They were

:41:30.:41:35.

not just to entertain you. They were either telling you historical

:41:35.:41:44.

fact or social reforms that should be brought in. And also we used to

:41:44.:41:49.

have a lot of agriculture and landowners, so the biggest dispute

:41:49.:41:54.

in those days after the independence wars was that the

:41:54.:42:00.

landowners were treating their subjects very badly. We had films

:42:00.:42:04.

on that and the message was that you should fight against them, form

:42:04.:42:10.

a union. So we had films like Kuli, in which unions were formed to

:42:10.:42:16.

fight against the magnet. Who are the bad guys now, what's changed in

:42:16.:42:20.

that, are they less socially engaged is the way to put it?

:42:20.:42:24.

guys are now smugglers, international smugglers. They are

:42:24.:42:32.

bad guys here too? Traffickers, you know they abduct young girls and

:42:32.:42:37.

sell them. We have lots of films like Bazaar. The reforms that have

:42:37.:42:42.

come into the Indian society since independence, thanks to the

:42:42.:42:46.

screening of films and documentaries and things like that.

:42:46.:42:56.

They are also tackling child marriage, taking revenge so we have

:42:56.:42:59.

famous stories. Did you here grow up on them, if so what did you

:42:59.:43:03.

think of Bollywood then when you were a girl? I grew up in west

:43:03.:43:07.

London in Southall, when I was growing up there were three cinemas

:43:07.:43:11.

that showed Bollywood or Hindi movies, it was very much part of my

:43:11.:43:15.

childhood and growing up. My father was very fond of Indian films, so

:43:15.:43:22.

there were two classic films that he raved about, Mother India and

:43:22.:43:27.

Beji Barbara. We grew up with those films. They are very much part of

:43:27.:43:32.

my childhood. What is important, really important about Hindi cinema

:43:32.:43:36.

in this country today, there are many British cinemas up and down

:43:36.:43:39.

the country that are being kept alive because of Indian cinema. If

:43:39.:43:44.

you go to a cinema like the Cineplex in Feltham, that is

:43:44.:43:50.

working because of all the Indians going there. Bollywood films or

:43:50.:43:52.

Hindi cinema today is very important to the community, because

:43:52.:43:56.

it is a way of reaffirming your idea and connecting with who you

:43:56.:44:00.

are, it is pleasurable. Does it cross over? Do you think it crosses

:44:00.:44:04.

over to a British audience? I don't think it does and I don't think it

:44:04.:44:07.

is intending to cross over. doesn't need to, it can do quite

:44:07.:44:11.

well, thank you very much? I think the important thing is it is a way,

:44:11.:44:15.

as it was said, it holds India together within India. But it is

:44:15.:44:25.
:44:25.:44:26.

also very important for the Indian disas pra, so people diaspora, so

:44:26.:44:30.

people sitting in India will be the same as someone in Australia. The

:44:30.:44:36.

whole system is very global. Does it cross over to directors, Bride

:44:36.:44:40.

and Prejudice was a crossover film, that is tricky I suppose? It is

:44:40.:44:47.

tricky. There are very few of us, but some people do venture into

:44:47.:44:55.

that territory. My very first film that you were in, Baji on the Beach,

:44:55.:44:59.

hi snippets of Bollywood films I was Reverends, at the time nobody

:44:59.:45:03.

knew what I was -- referencing, nobody knew what I was doing, they

:45:03.:45:07.

were film that is influenced me growing up. Those references were

:45:07.:45:12.

there, that was because at the time I started making films it was very

:45:12.:45:15.

much about exploring who you were as a British and Indian person and

:45:15.:45:18.

exploring identity. Within I got the opportunity to make my first

:45:18.:45:23.

feature film I wanted to explore my identity through being a British

:45:23.:45:26.

film maker as well as having a legacy of Indian films. I think

:45:26.:45:32.

there is interesting ways to use cinema. But I think the person in

:45:32.:45:37.

your report there was wrong. I don't think Hindi cinema is

:45:37.:45:40.

confused. In terms of bringing India together and how it impacts

:45:40.:45:44.

on the wider culture, does it change street fashions, does it

:45:44.:45:49.

change the way people talk and think? In India it has a great

:45:49.:45:55.

influence. The girls are dressing like film stars and of course some

:45:55.:46:00.

of the films are now copying the western culture and the western

:46:00.:46:03.

themes. The miniskirt is there now, very short hair which we could

:46:03.:46:08.

never dream of. That has come through Bollywood, but having been

:46:08.:46:12.

taken from there? Visa versa, Bollywood has travelled here, they

:46:12.:46:18.

have made a couple of film over here like Bollywood Queen with

:46:18.:46:28.
:46:28.:46:29.

James McAvoid, he was the hero in it. -- James McAvoy, he was the

:46:29.:46:34.

hero in it. I'm sure he wants to forget that. We will see happy

:46:34.:46:36.

birthday, tomorrow we have the reaction to the local election

:46:36.:46:46.
:46:46.:46:51.

Just like the last few days decent sunshine across central and eastern

:46:51.:46:55.

England to start with today. Not as cold a start as mornings past, a

:46:55.:46:58.

little more cloud further west and thicker cloud, rain and strong

:46:58.:47:01.

winds to the north. Certainly by the middle of the afternoon that

:47:01.:47:05.

rain will still be sitting across much of Northern Ireland, a

:47:05.:47:08.

disappointing ten degrees into Belfast. There will be snow above

:47:08.:47:13.

300ms to the higher ground to the tops of the mountains in Scotland.

:47:13.:47:17.

It will be wet and windy as well. That rain slowly sinking south

:47:17.:47:20.

across the borders by the middle of the afternoon. Cloud into northern

:47:20.:47:25.

England and down into the Midland. We cling on to the sunshine through

:47:25.:47:29.

the Midland East Anglia and the south-east corner. Highs of 17,

:47:29.:47:33.

maybe a 19, 20 somewhere with the warmth. A little more cloud across

:47:33.:47:38.

the south west, the cloud thickenens for a few showers,

:47:38.:47:48.
:47:48.:47:53.

coming inland hopeful low you will We keep the sunshine and warmth, a

:47:54.:47:57.

little more cloud into the south- east for Saturday. Cloudy skies

:47:57.:48:00.

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