10/07/2013 Newsnight


10/07/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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It's one of the most feared parties in Pakistan, blamed for

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intimidation and political violence. How come it's being run here in

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North London. Orders are given and threats are made to political

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enemies. Can the party spokesman explain it all away? Bad news for

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ducks, there is a crackdown on MPs' expenses, don't worry too much,

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officialdom has tonight decreed MPs deserve a big pay rise. The BBC's

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glittering new headquarters have no sick pay, pity. The overwhelming

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focus was to get numbers out of the door as quickly as possible to

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save...You Know it is the license fee payers' money, it is not your

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money, it is our money. Also tonight, what were trade unions

:01:16.:01:26.
:01:26.:01:36.

Granma? Britain has a long history of offering refuge to victims of

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persecution. Suppose instead it was offering sanctity to an

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organisation which was using Britain as a base from which to

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threaten and persecute others. That is the accusation against a leader

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of an organisation called the MQM, a man called Altaf Hussain. The MQM

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is one of the most feared political organisations in Pakistan. Mr

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Hussain is accused of no fewer than 30 murders there, which he denies.

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He now lives happily in North London from whence he controls the

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brain and brawn of his organisation, which dominates Pakistan's biggest

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city, Karachi. Thursday September 16th 2010, CCTV

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catches senior MQM member, Imran Farooq, at Edgware tube station.

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He's walking towards the 204 bus stop, and his murderers. After that

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the CCTV coverage stopped. But the police believe he walked for

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another ten minutes and then was stabbed to death outside his home.

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The police found a knife and a brick used to kill him, but there

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was very little else to go on. The first major breakthrough came over

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a year later. The Pakistan authorities arrested two men, I

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believe in Karachi, during the year. And that was on the grounds of this

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murder. We are liaising with the Pakistani authorities to see how to

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pursue this investigation and it is very much a live investigation.

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far the Pakistanis haven't handed anyone over but the police here

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have launched a massive investigation into the murder of

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Imran Farooq, and they just arrested someone a couple of weeks

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ago at Heathrow, he has been bailed until September. They also raided

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this house, and it belongs to Altaf Hussain, the leader of the MQM,

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around here I wouldn't be surprised if many people didn't even know who

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he was. Back in Pakistan he's one of the most famous politicians in

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the country. He's developed the practice of addressing thousands of

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his supporters in Karachi over the phone. They gather and listen to

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his voice. And after the raid on his home he lashed out at the UK

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Father of the nation! Altaf Hussain has been a UK resident for over two

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decades. He has a British passport. These are his party head quarters

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in Edgware. It may be a long way from Pakistan, but from here he

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exerts total control over his party. He denies any involvement in the

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murder of Imran Farooq. And to make the point he very publicly mourned

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his former colleague's death. In their raids the police found

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hundreds of thousands of pounds of unaccounted for cash. That has led

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to a money laundering investigation. And the Metropolitan Police are

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also formally investigating Altaf Hussain for something else. Whether

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he's using his London base to incite violence in Pakistan.

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By any standards Altaf Hussain uses The police are now assessing

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whether those speeches and others like them breach the law. So what

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does the British law say? We asked a London-based Urdu-speaking

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barrister to look at some of the clips and to make an assessment.

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Well there used to be potentially terrorism offences one would have

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to have the threat of force, which seems to be on the clips, made for

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a political cause, and the MQM is a political body, designed to

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influence the Government, all three seem to be made out. When one looks

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at the body of material Newsnight has gathered, it looks as though

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there is a case to answer. Because it appears there is an intention

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that the listener, or the person against whom a threat is being made

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should take it seriously. Highlights here, the most senior

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MQM leader in Pakistan. He's listening to Altaf Hussain speaking

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about tearing open abdomens, and yet he insists his leader doesn't

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use violent language. categorically would deny and refute

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that Mr Hussain would have ever said what you are saying to anybody.

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This is just simply impossible. as take the Supreme Court, they

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interpreted something he said as a threat and they demanded an apology,

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that is the Supreme Court of Pakistan. If something that may

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have come as a result of a kind of emotional outburst or gesture that

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may have come, so then we always all open to criticism also. We are

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open to correction also, that is what Mr Altaf Hussain has always

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retracted from such statements which may have caused and may have

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hurt the sentiments of the people of Pakistan or the institutions of

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Pakistan. We trietd to contact former MQM -- tried to contact

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former MQM members for this programme, only one agreed to talk.

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Naim Ahmed said he used to work for the party in Karachi and its

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members there have killed people. cannot count but hundreds of people.

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Hundreds? Yes, hundreds of people killed. The MQM insists it is a

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peaceful party and doesn't use violence? No, they are not a

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peaceful party. They are militants as a group. And they are like a

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bunch of Mafia. Did you ever commit any acts of violence? No, it wasn't

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my job. It was because of the violence I left the party, I left

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the party for violence, yes. I left the party because of violence.

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Because of militancy. So what did you think of those young men in

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your district who were, you say, killing people in the name of the

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MQM? I always tried to convince them it is not the nice way. What

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you are doing, who is giving you the orders, they directly say they

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got their orders from London. in Karachi is dangerous. After the

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recent elections a well known political and social campaign there

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in the city -- campaigner in the city was shot dead outside her home.

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Over the years I have heard stories of how the police simply kill

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suspected MQM militants on the streets, meaning the MQM wants

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revenge. This Pakistani policeman got asylum in Europe because of

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threats from the Taliban, but also from the MQM. We have changed his

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name and voice and obscured his image. I think 80% of MQM

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terrorists arrested by the police are involved in the murder and

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other terrorist aiveties. When you made -- Activities.When you made

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these arrests, how did the MQM respond and what did they say to

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you? The MQM tried to give a statement against me. Also they

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threatened to kill me and they killed my other colleagues.

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many of your colleagues did they kill? I think 20.You say the MQM

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have killed all these police officers and yet you know there are

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very few convictions in Pakistan. Why are these people never

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convicted? Nobody wants to give evidence against MQM. Why don't

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people want to give evidence? they try to give evidence against

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MQM so MQM will kill them. And their families. Depending how you

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look at it, Altaf Hussain is charismatic or eccentric. (he

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sings) On TV he bolsters his image as a modern liberal man, but his

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reputation in Karachi is so fierce, many people try to avoid even

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saying his name in public. Why is he able to operate from London? It

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is not as if spax stand hasn't complained -- Pakistan hasn't

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complained. For 20 years Pakistani leaders have asked London to

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control Altaf Hussain. The police are investigating, but what about

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the Government? This is Britain's deputy High Commisioner to Pakistan

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paying Altaf Hussain a visit in North London. The MQM says whenever

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they need visas the Home Office issues them almost without

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exception. Why does Britain keep its doors open to the MQM in this

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way. One member of the House of Lords openly critical of the MQM

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told us he won't go to Karachi because he fears if he did so he

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could be killed. Another member of the Lords says she doesn't ask

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questions about the MQM, because, as she put it, she has a child to

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worry about. It all prompts the question why do British officials

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so keen to talk about promoting democracy in Pakistan deal with a

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party that privately, they say, uses violence to achieve its

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objectives. This letter may help answer that, written by Altaf

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Hussain it arrived in Number Ten within weeks of 9/11. In it Altaf

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Hussain offers Tony Blair human intelligence on Jihadis. For years

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the MQM and the Foreign Office refused to acknowledge this letter

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is genuine. But through a Freedom of Information request Newsnight

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has established that the letter is authentic and did reach Number Ten,

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who passed it on to the Foreign Office. It is a curious thing, on

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the one hand here you have this party which has a very complicated

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and controversial reputation in Pakistan being run by remote

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control at a distance of 4,000 miles by its leader from this very

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city. On the other hand, it offers Britain some degree of influence in

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Pakistan. And also a protection against the Jihadis? Yes, the MQM

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has played very heavily over the years on the idea that it presents

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a bulwark against Islamist extremism in Pakistan's most

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populated city. There is no doubt Altaf Hussain is under ever-greater

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pressure. For many in Pakistan the pressing question is this, will

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Britain put him on trial? Farooq Sattar, the parliamentary leader of

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the MQM in Pakistan is here now. When Altaf Hussain says he's going

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to tear out somebody's abdomen, is he planning to do so personally?

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Jeremy Paxman, what I have to say after I watched this documentary

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that the BBC, though it is a very reputable organisation, but it

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seems that there has been some influence of the profile and

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radical forces when this documentary was being prepared.

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don't deny he said this, you don't deny he would tear out someone's

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abdomen? Whatever his statements have been televised here. They have

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been all referred to out of context and they have not been there is no

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reference to context to it in which he has said that, they are

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irrelevant. When he says to people, we are going to put you in a body

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bag, that is? He has not said that. Yes he has, it is on tape. He has

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not said that, he could not say that. Whatever he has said it.

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People were just laughing. It is because a malicious propaganda and

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and the media. It is against a secular, middle and working-class

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party that is MQM. By the perpetrators of the status quo and

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the political corrupt culture. And a section of the Pakistani media

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has been behind it, and now I'm seeing this documentary story in

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the international reputable media, to my shock, I'm shocked to see

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this. Misinterpretation. Are you also alleging that the people

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former members of your party, that murders were ordered from London to

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be carried out in Pakistan, they are also just having a joke are

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they? I would cat dworically deny and repute -- categorically and

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deny and repute there is any proof of any order coming from London,

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and as a result of that anybody got killed. I see.I categorically.

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you help us with the facts. such things happen in Pakistan.

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They have to understand the trial in...Help Us with something

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happened here. They have not been vindicated or substantiated.

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much money was found inside your offices here and inside Altaf

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Hussain's house? I know some amount of money was seized. How much?I

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don't know, because it is a matter of investigation. I would not like

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to. Our understanding is it is about �150,000 in the office, and

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�250,000 in his house, where did it come from? Since it is a matter of

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investigation, I would not like to comment anything further. Where did

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it come from, in cash? Hundreds of thousands of pounds? There was no

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court or any prop investigation will ask and then I will respond to

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that. I don't think it should be a subject of a media trial. That any

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money found in anybody's possession. These are vast sums of money. What

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was it for? This money? What was it for? What I'm saying is it is a

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matter of investigation, so let the investigation be completed. Don't

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you know what it was for? Nobody was arrested as a result of that.

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Yet? Nobody was arrested there was no charge framed against either

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Altaf Hussain or anybody in the party. Yet.And then there is no

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court case made as of now. Yet.So I think it is better to see how the

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investigation unfolds in the future. If I suggest to you there was a

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money laundering operation going on there, what do you say? It is

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simply you have a right to say whatever you want to say, but you

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can't be a judge on that. You can't say that simply during the raid if

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some money was found if during the raid on the house where Mr Altaf

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Hussain lived, or in any office, so that is directly interpreted as if

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it was illegally gotten money or out of some illegal means that the

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money was there. You will co- operate with all investigations?

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will, we have been. Even in the investigation of the murder of Dr

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Imran Farooq, catagorically from day one, we said we wanted the

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arrest of the real culprits. That was after the raid on your leader's

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house? Even if it was, we have not actually objected to the raid on

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the house. We have objected to the technicalties into that. Then the

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raid was carried out documents were taken away, the money was also

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taken away, no receipt or acknowledgement of that. So you

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knew there was money taken away? I'm saying some money was seized,

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I'm not saying it was not. When your leader says it was some

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conspiracy from Britain, he's wrong is he, you want to co-operate with

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this investigation? Yeah, but as soon as we see that the

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investigation is not being restricted to the investigation of

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the murder of Dr Imran Farooq, but is now going into investigating the

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procedures of the party, and the operational things of the party,

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which we see has no direct connection with Dr Imran Farooq's

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murder, as far as we perceive it. So we are say it in response that

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we have a right to say that. When all legal familiar yarts are not

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being observed legal issues are being observed properly, no charge

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has been framed or anybody arrested. There is nothing I can say beyond

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that. Thank you very much. Now nice work if you can get it, the

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independent body which considers what our rulers are paid thinks

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they ought to get more. Tomorrow they will say they should get over

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11% more. Public sector pay rises are being capped at 1%. MPs in the

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judgment of the organisation set up after some of them were discovered

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with their hands in the till ought to get over �7,000 extra, but their

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pensions and expenses will suffer. Allegra Stratton is here? It is a

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fudge that neither side will like. The public won't like it because it

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is way, way more than the wage rises they have or haven't had in

:19:56.:20:00.

the past and look like they are going to get in the future. It is

:20:00.:20:04.

lr for MPs. You look like you are not too sorry about people who have

:20:04.:20:08.

learned they are going to get a 10% rise. For MPs it takes them just

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above what their French equivalents get. It takes them nowhere near

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what their German and American equivalents get. They feel agrieved

:20:17.:20:23.

on that count. And also because a large package of concessions made

:20:23.:20:27.

by Sir Ian Kennedy, which we will look at, the first of which is they

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will have to accept. Shouldn't there be an apostrophe on that

:20:36.:20:40.

MP's? There were due to be increased in the next few years, it

:20:40.:20:46.

is more like a 9% one. It is lower pensions, it becomes a career

:20:46.:20:51.

average. Cuts to their evening meal allowance. Boo hoo to that.

:20:51.:20:57.

Restriction on taxi fares, and lower payouts for MPs who lose

:20:57.:21:01.

their seats. There is a real worry, not just amongst sitting MPs and

:21:01.:21:06.

people who watch and comment Tate on MPs that the quality you can

:21:06.:21:11.

bring in is difficult when the pay increase is not so good. What they

:21:11.:21:15.

have had today, Jeremy you are laughing. I'm not laughing.You are

:21:15.:21:19.

trying not to. What they have had today is all the pain of a pay rise

:21:19.:21:24.

but not much of the game. All of these, Sir Ian Kennedy's own words

:21:24.:21:28.

will mean the public purse is paying out not much more. I wasn't

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laughing, I was smiling actually at Margaret Hodge here who is actually

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taking part in a discussion a bit later on and has very gamely come

:21:36.:21:40.

in to defend what is not going to be a very popular cause I imagine?

:21:40.:21:45.

I don't think I'm going to try to defend it Jeremy. I think it is

:21:45.:21:48.

inappropriate at a time when we are asking public sector workers to

:21:48.:21:52.

take a 1% increase in their pay, we are public sector workers and

:21:52.:21:56.

people, that is how I view myself. You won't be accepting this rise?

:21:56.:22:01.

Let me say something about that, I'm not going to enter into a Dutch

:22:01.:22:06.

auction of I will do it for �30,000. I'm not suggesting a Dutch auction,

:22:06.:22:10.

it is a clear-cut decision, it is being offered? That's what starts

:22:10.:22:15.

to happen. I will tell you why, in the end we will say some MPs will

:22:16.:22:23.

do it for �10-�20,000, some may pay for their seat. Then back to the

:22:23.:22:26.

19th century when people bought their seats. We don't want a Dutch

:22:26.:22:29.

auction. It is inappropriate at a time when every public sector

:22:29.:22:33.

worker is being asked to take a 1% pay rise, I don't know if that is

:22:33.:22:36.

what you are getting, I don't think it is right that MPs should be out

:22:36.:22:40.

of line. You are happy enough with the change to pension arrangements

:22:41.:22:44.

so it is a career average? haven't looked at the details of

:22:44.:22:49.

the pension changes at all. I can't quite understand how he makes it

:22:49.:22:53.

cost neutral. But I'm glad it is cost neutral, that is probably a

:22:53.:22:56.

sensible thing to do. I just think it is the wrong time. Can I make

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one other observation. If you wish to carry on, please do. The only

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other observation is this is an incredibly difficult decision to

:23:04.:23:09.

take. When we tried to take it ourselves we got it wrong. We then

:23:09.:23:12.

give it to an outside body, it doesn't look like they have got it

:23:12.:23:16.

right. I just wish as a society we could really have a grown-up

:23:16.:23:20.

conversation about what you think we should get paid. We are having a

:23:20.:23:23.

grown-up conversation about it now. You have just told us you won't get

:23:23.:23:26.

into a Dutch auction and put a figure on it. Would your advice to

:23:26.:23:31.

your colleagues be, don't accept this? I think the advice at this

:23:31.:23:35.

point is take part in the consultation, we haven't got a

:23:35.:23:38.

final figure. My own view, if I'm asked is it shouldn't be more than

:23:38.:23:42.

1% and then let as take it to the next step. With what would be wrong

:23:42.:23:46.

is if people start taking differential amounts. I really

:23:46.:23:50.

think that, that is the long road back into rotten boroughs. See you

:23:50.:23:54.

in a minute. Senior suits from the BBC spent an

:23:54.:23:57.

uncomfortable afternoon today trying to explain how so many

:23:57.:24:03.

senior figures at the organisations managed to stick their snouts in a

:24:03.:24:09.

trough full of public money. They were trying to tell MPs,

:24:09.:24:13.

specifically Margaret Hodge and her colleagues Thesee threw cash at

:24:13.:24:16.

friends to ease their path into the new world. The Director General

:24:16.:24:19.

said the organisation had lost the plot, he's hoping to help them find

:24:19.:24:29.
:24:29.:24:29.

it again. People who can't get a ticket for a

:24:29.:24:33.

West End show, or a Boris bike, will sometimes end up on a tour of

:24:33.:24:40.

the BBC's new HQ. It is a nice day out, though it is �13.50 a head.

:24:40.:24:44.

Some former BBC bosses had to work for up to two minutes to make that

:24:44.:24:52.

kind of money. Or not work for two minutes, come to that. Easy Big Ben.

:24:52.:24:56.

These visitors are fascinated by what goes on behind the scenes at

:24:56.:25:06.

the corporation. And that goes for license fee payers and MPs as well.

:25:06.:25:10.

The Public Accounts Committee put current BBC top brass on the spot.

:25:10.:25:13.

After the National Audit Office push illusioned a damning report

:25:13.:25:18.

into pay-offs to some of their former colleagues. Did you know

:25:18.:25:23.

about all these severence payments to BBC staff? We knew that

:25:23.:25:27.

severence payments were being made, it was a question of shock and

:25:27.:25:32.

dismay for us to discover how many had been beyond contractual and

:25:32.:25:39.

therefore had been even higher than they needed to be. Where they

:25:39.:25:43.

concede contractual obligations, should the Trust have known? Yes,

:25:43.:25:49.

and if you call in due course a previous Director General of the

:25:49.:25:55.

BBC, I will be as interested as you are in why we didn't know. Lord

:25:55.:26:00.

Patten was referring to former D G Caroline Thompson. The committee

:26:00.:26:05.

heard he wrote to the BBC -- Mark Thompson. The committee heard he

:26:05.:26:10.

wrote to the BBC Trust and said the payments were in line with

:26:10.:26:14.

contracts. Did Mark Thompson lie to you or were you negligent. I have a

:26:14.:26:18.

copy of a letter or note that tame to the Trust and I have the

:26:18.:26:22.

National Audit Office report, those two do not connect. Mark Thompson

:26:22.:26:27.

lied to you? I'm not going to make a comment, you address that to him.

:26:27.:26:33.

Mr Thomson is said to be appearing before MPs at a future date. The

:26:33.:26:37.

New York Times his current employer expressed full confidence in him.

:26:37.:26:42.

When his successor George Entwistle exited after 53 days in the job he

:26:42.:26:47.

was paid �475,000, including �25,000 for a three-week handover

:26:47.:26:53.

to his temporary replacement. Entwistle was paid the more or less

:26:53.:26:58.

equivalent of what one of my constituents earns as an average

:26:58.:27:01.

annual salary for 20 days work above his contractual obligations.

:27:01.:27:09.

What actually did he do in that 20 days. Very little. We started the

:27:09.:27:13.

clock from the end of the month, because we were worried that there

:27:13.:27:19.

might be issues in a handover period to Tim Davie, who was acting

:27:19.:27:24.

Director General, but the fact of the matter is Tim Davie coped

:27:24.:27:29.

brilliantly on his own and within 12 days we had appointed the next

:27:30.:27:33.

Director General, Lord Hall, whose appointment was extremely well

:27:33.:27:41.

received, I think. So you can...So He didn't do anything? As it

:27:41.:27:46.

happened he wasn't required to do anything. Mark Byford, the former

:27:46.:27:52.

Deputy DG left office with �950,000. Mrs Hodge called the pay-offs a

:27:52.:27:56.

fiddle to get people out. Culturally as, I think Lucy Adams

:27:56.:28:01.

and others have said, you all commented, I think we had lost the

:28:01.:28:07.

plot. We had lost the way. We had got bedevilled by zur rows on

:28:07.:28:12.

various salaries. -- zeros on various salaries.

:28:12.:28:19.

Good evening, the Peruvian plan...A Former presenter of this show, who

:28:19.:28:22.

shrugged it off to find respectability in the BBC, said

:28:22.:28:26.

there is a question mark over the chair of the BBC Trust. There is

:28:26.:28:29.

always coming a time where anybody in a senior position has come to

:28:29.:28:33.

the end of their utility, has run out of road, as they say, and I

:28:33.:28:36.

think the questions must be asked and will be asked whether that is

:28:36.:28:43.

the case with Chris Patten. The BBC is a London landmark, it is not on

:28:43.:28:49.

the monopoly board, though a good few who passed through its portals

:28:49.:28:52.

have collected their �200 and the rest. Margaret Hodge is still here,

:28:53.:28:58.

we are also joined by the former BBC chairman, Sir Christopher Bland.

:28:58.:29:03.

Do you think the BBC has been transparent? No. We have had to

:29:03.:29:08.

drag the information so far out of them it all started with The

:29:08.:29:16.

Entrepenurial State pay-off, and then on the back of that -- the

:29:16.:29:19.

Entwistle pay-off, and then there was the cost of somebody in post

:29:19.:29:23.

only for five months. We have had this deeper look, but there are 150

:29:23.:29:27.

senior managers who have left the BBC over a three-year period, the

:29:27.:29:32.

cost is �25 million. To put that into perspective, the cost of

:29:32.:29:38.

running Radio 4 is double that, so half the cost of running Radio 4,

:29:38.:29:44.

all the programmes on Radio 4 is what was spent on exiting 150

:29:44.:29:48.

senior managers. Do you know who signed off on those deals? We know

:29:48.:29:54.

who signed off on a few deals. We don't know the amount, the why and

:29:54.:29:57.

the who on most of those deals. That is why we have asked the

:29:57.:30:01.

question of the BBC to provide us with that information. What's gone

:30:01.:30:08.

wrong? Tony Hall put it well, said there was a failure of central

:30:08.:30:13.

oversight. There was a failure of the BBC Executive Committee, not at

:30:13.:30:21.

the BBC Trust, and also of the non- executive directors who sit on the

:30:21.:30:24.

BBC executive. That is where the primary fault lies. Did you say you

:30:24.:30:29.

don't agree? One of the really depressing facet of today's hearing

:30:29.:30:32.

was the inability to accept accountability and always passing

:30:32.:30:37.

the buck. So it has been passed. Welcome to the BBC! It is not

:30:37.:30:42.

uncommon, I'm afraid. Tony Hall didn't pass the buck, he said it

:30:42.:30:48.

was down to. He wasn't here.He said it was the fault of the

:30:48.:30:52.

Executive Committee and it was. me just say this to you, if you are

:30:52.:30:57.

the chair of a Trust, which Chris Patten is, and the members of that

:30:57.:31:02.

Trust, you have a duty both to ensure value for money and a duty

:31:02.:31:06.

to protect the license payers' interest, you take as a strategic

:31:06.:31:11.

objective, you want to reduce the number of senior managers, we all

:31:11.:31:14.

applaud that, but then not to concern yourself with the detail,

:31:14.:31:19.

not to know whether or not actually the BBC broke its own rules. I

:31:19.:31:23.

think it demonstrates that the Trust of not providing proper

:31:23.:31:26.

oversight. I don't buy this argument that it wasn't for them.

:31:26.:31:30.

Some of this was down to parliament. It was parliament who set up the

:31:30.:31:35.

crazy structure of a Trust with clear blue water between it and the

:31:35.:31:41.

BBC, separate employment, separate building, it is the Executive

:31:41.:31:46.

Committee and the first instance who are responsible for signing off

:31:46.:31:50.

that. Someone miss led it?That is yet to be seen, and one of the

:31:50.:31:53.

missing elephants in the room. you know who misled them? One of

:31:53.:31:59.

the missing elements in the room was Mark Thompson, who signed off,

:31:59.:32:04.

I would guess those payments, with the non-executive members of the

:32:04.:32:09.

Executive Committee of the BBC. And they should have exercised in the

:32:09.:32:13.

first instance oversight. It is very convenient today to blame two

:32:13.:32:18.

people who weren't there, Mark Thompson, and the chairman, the ex-

:32:18.:32:22.

chairman of Barclays. You blamed them that is why you are hauling

:32:22.:32:25.

him in front of you. I didn't blame him I have to say members of the

:32:25.:32:30.

Trust blamed him and the implication from the executive was

:32:30.:32:32.

it was the previous executive. I would say everybody is accountable.

:32:32.:32:37.

The purpose of the Trust, it may well be that on the margins we got

:32:37.:32:41.

it, parliament got it a little bit wrong. Got it entirely wrong.Hang

:32:41.:32:47.

on, if the purpose of the Trust is to protect the license fee payers'

:32:47.:32:51.

interests, and the Trust needs to provide value for money, allowing

:32:51.:32:55.

what we described as a quarter of the pay-offs we looked at had

:32:55.:32:59.

broken the BBC's own rules, exceeded them in all sorts of ways,

:32:59.:33:07.

for that not to be monitored by the Trust. It should have been

:33:07.:33:11.

monitored by the Trust. That is not how you set the Trust up. You

:33:11.:33:16.

actually excluded it from day-to- day responsibility for senior

:33:16.:33:19.

executive remuneration. You read the charter. And parliament did

:33:19.:33:22.

that. I'm not talking about responsibility for remuneration,

:33:22.:33:26.

what I'm a talking about. That is what we are talking about.

:33:26.:33:29.

talking about a proper monitoring to protect the license fee payers'

:33:29.:33:32.

interest and ensure value for money. It doesn't mean you take the

:33:33.:33:36.

decisions, but you monitor those decisions, that is what oversight

:33:36.:33:39.

is to ensure that actually the objectives of the Trust and the

:33:39.:33:44.

interests of the license fee payers is being defended. Nobody in the

:33:44.:33:47.

room did that or took responsibility for that. Including

:33:47.:33:53.

if I may say so, I wish she were here, your HR director of the BBC

:33:53.:34:00.

who is paid in excess of �100,000. We invited her on, but she like all

:34:00.:34:04.

the other managers you can't see them for dust? Hang on she has had

:34:04.:34:09.

a tough day. She may have. I also had a tough day. You were handing

:34:10.:34:14.

it out rather than taking it. trying to be fair. I think you were.

:34:14.:34:17.

The fact is Tony Hall was right, it is not the Trust's responsibility

:34:17.:34:22.

in the first instance, it is the BBC's executive, it is the Director

:34:22.:34:25.

General, it was parliament, by the way, who said the Director General

:34:25.:34:29.

shall also be the chairman of the Executive Committee. Another

:34:29.:34:34.

serious element of judgment, next time round you should put that

:34:34.:34:37.

right. There was so much that was so wrong, it was jolly depressing

:34:37.:34:41.

today to hear it all come out. If in fact the executive lied to the

:34:41.:34:46.

Trust, I think that is terrible. I still fail to understand why a

:34:46.:34:50.

whole number of executives walked out with hundreds of thousands of

:34:50.:34:53.

pounds into new jobs. One to the British Library, one to run a

:34:53.:34:58.

college in London, one to work in the private sector for Burberry.

:34:58.:35:02.

Are you going to insist that more names are named? We are going to

:35:02.:35:07.

insist that the names, what they got, why they got it and who they,

:35:07.:35:11.

who authorised it is revealed to the committee. How we then handle

:35:11.:35:16.

that, we will obviously have to do that sensitively. Thank you very

:35:16.:35:20.

much. There was an even more raucous than usual bout of name-

:35:20.:35:23.

calling in the House of Commons today as MPs sleeked at each other

:35:23.:35:26.

about where their party got its funds from. The Conservatives were

:35:26.:35:29.

desperate to get as much mileage out of the question of Labour's

:35:29.:35:33.

links with the trades unions, as they could, before Ed Miliband

:35:33.:35:38.

achieves his ambition of making the issue disappear in the undergrowth

:35:38.:35:41.

of some inquiry or other. The unions themselves, which invented

:35:41.:35:46.

the Labour Party of course are pretty agitated about what Mr

:35:46.:35:53.

Miliband says he has in mind. They have deeper worries too.

:35:53.:35:57.

No motorcars or carts are allowed in the streets of Durham. The

:35:57.:36:02.

miners take complete possession of the city. Around this time of year,

:36:02.:36:06.

Victorian pit bosses gathered in Durham to set miners' wages, not

:36:06.:36:10.

surprisingly the miners turned up too. What began as rally for higher

:36:10.:36:16.

wages became a good knees up, the famous Durham Rhineers' gala.

:36:16.:36:21.

can't scare me # I'm sticking with the union

:36:21.:36:25.

This weekend will be a carnival without its cause. Mines have

:36:26.:36:32.

closed, Britain's Labour forces changed, -- Britain's labour force

:36:32.:36:35.

has changed, and so too its trade unions.

:36:35.:36:42.

This is more like it, the offices of the General Municiple Boiler

:36:42.:36:52.

Makers union or the GMB, 632 Cherry Orchard Walk, Swindon. If Ed

:36:52.:36:55.

Miliband wants a more direct relationship with union members, it

:36:55.:36:59.

is people like this, supermarket lorry drivers on a union health and

:36:59.:37:04.

safety course. In 1979 union membership peaked at 13.2 million.

:37:04.:37:10.

There were sharp falls in the 80s and 90s, and after new Labour in

:37:10.:37:15.

1997 the expansion in public sector employment saw this decline plateau,

:37:15.:37:20.

current membership is 7.2 million, 26% of today's work force are in a

:37:20.:37:24.

union, most are in the public sector, but 14% of private sector

:37:24.:37:29.

employees are in a union. Separate figures show there were 589,000

:37:29.:37:35.

more union members in 20 -- 59,000 more union members in 2012 than

:37:35.:37:41.

there were before. Tony Watkins has lived through the change. It was a

:37:41.:37:46.

closed shop, that's going back to 1969. To get a job it was closed

:37:46.:37:49.

shop. If you didn't join a union you didn't get a job. It has

:37:49.:37:53.

changed in leaps and bounds. The unions are more professional, they

:37:53.:37:56.

are there for the members and not for what they can get. There is

:37:56.:38:00.

none of these strike actions. Everything is negotiated.

:38:00.:38:04.

Management will talk to you, where ten years ago they wouldn't talk to

:38:04.:38:10.

you. If you were in the union you were stood on. Now they treat you

:38:10.:38:16.

as an equal. The make up of the unionised work force has changed

:38:16.:38:20.

greatly since 1995, there are a million fewer manufacturing members,

:38:20.:38:23.

numbers in construction have fallen too, but in the private sector the

:38:23.:38:28.

number of unionised shop staff has risen, a surge in Teaching

:38:28.:38:32.

Assistants becoming unionised has also pushed up numbers in education,

:38:32.:38:40.

healthcare has seen the numbers grow too. Ed Miliband's idea is the

:38:40.:38:44.

three million union members who pay a political levy will be asked to

:38:44.:38:47.

give their conscious approval that some of that money supports the

:38:47.:38:50.

Labour Party. Right now that is a choice made by union bosses that

:38:50.:38:55.

members are informed of. If asked to make this decision themselves

:38:55.:39:01.

the GMB thinks they just won't. Your boss, Paul Kenny said this

:39:01.:39:05.

morning he thinks numbers will go down, is that your experience?

:39:05.:39:09.

may well go down, on the basis people will have to opt in rather

:39:09.:39:13.

than choosing to opt out. Minutes later Carol's suspicion gets backed

:39:13.:39:17.

up by the men on the health and safety course. Most of the members

:39:17.:39:22.

do stand on their own two feet and I think a lot of the union members

:39:22.:39:26.

aren't politically motivated any more. I don't think we should be

:39:26.:39:30.

associated with any political party. We should be totally separate from

:39:30.:39:36.

it. Would I vote for Labour? No I wouldn't. Have you voted Labour

:39:36.:39:41.

before? A long, long time ago. Now I look at what people are going to

:39:41.:39:46.

give us and then I vote. Labour held only a modest lead over the

:39:46.:39:50.

Tories, in 2010, among public sector union members who said they

:39:50.:39:55.

were certain to vote, but that lead has now increased hugely. Among

:39:55.:40:00.

private sector union members the Tories held a healthy lead in 2010,

:40:00.:40:05.

that lead has now almost disappeared. You think the link

:40:05.:40:09.

with Labour should carry on, but they should listen to you more?

:40:09.:40:12.

Definitely, it is value for money. Members pay for representation.

:40:12.:40:17.

Where is it, we pay for MPs to do our bidding, to a certain extent.

:40:17.:40:21.

They should be agents of us. I know it is an outdated concept, this is

:40:21.:40:26.

how it should happen, but it is not happening.

:40:26.:40:30.

As it was in the beginning of the Labour movement, the unions have

:40:30.:40:34.

come a long way since then, the question is how they wold influence

:40:34.:40:40.

in the future? -- they wield influence in the future?

:40:40.:40:43.

Billy Hayes is the General Secretary of the Communication

:40:43.:40:46.

Workers Union, David Goodhart is the director of the centre left

:40:46.:40:50.

think-tank, Demos. Do you think there is any point any longer in

:40:50.:40:56.

this link? Not really. I think it is stopped being functional

:40:56.:41:01.

actually for both parties to the link. It used to obviously have a

:41:01.:41:05.

purpose, that unions were a great moderating influence in the Labour

:41:05.:41:12.

Party, in the relatively recent past. But I do think Labour suffers

:41:12.:41:15.

from it politically as we saw in the House of Commons today. I think

:41:15.:41:20.

the bigger point is the unions now get very little out of this

:41:20.:41:26.

relationship. They have a massive, massive job to do in modern Britain.

:41:26.:41:31.

They are not doing it very effectively. We have an hourglass

:41:31.:41:36.

labour market. We have about a third of the economies highly-

:41:36.:41:39.

skilled, high productivity jobs, where the unions are quite well

:41:39.:41:43.

organised. We have a middle sector, public sector and others, we have a

:41:43.:41:47.

massive bottom of the hourglass, which is about 35% of the

:41:47.:41:52.

population, ten million people who are mainly in low paid jobs in care

:41:52.:41:58.

in cleaning in retail, and these jobs are not organised, with one or

:41:58.:42:03.

two exceptions. The unions have an historic job to do organising there.

:42:03.:42:07.

And the link with the Labour Party is not helping them do that. Do you

:42:07.:42:12.

feel it helps you? I think it does, I think the link with the Labour

:42:12.:42:16.

Party is a connection with the work place, you wouldn't have had the

:42:16.:42:19.

minimum wage had it not been for the affiliation to the Labour Party.

:42:19.:42:23.

But it has been described in the past, it is a contentious alliance,

:42:23.:42:28.

it is the most and transparent relationship of any political party

:42:28.:42:34.

when you compare, they are called donors, but the donations are made

:42:34.:42:38.

by the Conservatives...Let As stay off the Tories and talk about the

:42:38.:42:42.

unions and Labour, or the unions in particular. Explain to him why he

:42:42.:42:45.

might be in the sky with this? could go on having a relationship,

:42:45.:42:49.

look at Germany the trade unions there don't have the kind of

:42:49.:42:52.

official affiliation to the Social Democratic Party, but come election

:42:52.:42:59.

time most of the officials they are out there, you know, battling for

:42:59.:43:05.

the SPD. But it doesn't damage the SPD politically, they are not seen

:43:05.:43:10.

as funded by the unions. I mean I think this point about the minimum

:43:10.:43:13.

wage is not right. You could have had that even if you had not been

:43:13.:43:16.

affiliated to the Labour Party. There are all sorts of things you

:43:16.:43:26.

could and should have and that actually labour -- Labour

:43:26.:43:31.

affiliation there. According to Biz, if you are a union member you enjoy

:43:31.:43:34.

an 18% difference to non-unionised work forces, where they are

:43:34.:43:41.

organised they are effective. are effective. We are across BT,

:43:41.:43:45.

sant tanned der, where we are organised we are effective. There

:43:46.:43:49.

is a issues with sector, the big corporations have gone, and one of

:43:49.:43:52.

the things unions have to do is recognise the changes that are

:43:52.:43:56.

taking place demo graphically. The majority of trade unionists in

:43:56.:44:01.

Britain are women. We need more ethnic minorities in positions of

:44:01.:44:04.

leadership. The unions have to change. Unions are still effective.

:44:04.:44:08.

We have just seen tonight on the telly, a celebration of somebody

:44:08.:44:12.

getting the sack. I know it is a big popular programme, the

:44:12.:44:15.

apprentice, when was the last time there was a television programme

:44:15.:44:19.

about the role of trade unions in the work place, we don't get that

:44:19.:44:22.

any more. We are just having one now, we are having a programme

:44:22.:44:29.

about it now. Jeremy with the greatest respect to you, 11.10 on a

:44:29.:44:33.

Wednesday night, we are...You dream on for a bit, matey!

:44:33.:44:37.

saying you are effective, that is exactly what I'm a saying, but you

:44:37.:44:41.

are not representing the working poor of Britain. We have eight to

:44:41.:44:46.

ten million low-skilled jobs, with the exception of the retail sector

:44:46.:44:51.

you guys are not there. Your heartland is in the public sector.

:44:51.:44:55.

You represent professionals. members are in telecommunications.

:44:55.:44:59.

The whole movement I'm a talking about. I'm talking about my own

:44:59.:45:02.

union and experience, we have some of the best paid people in Britain

:45:02.:45:06.

and they want to be in a union, I get your point about the bottom end,

:45:06.:45:10.

but we are organising the bottom end as well. Cloners, catering.

:45:10.:45:14.

have to relearn those skills you need all the time and energy and

:45:14.:45:19.

money at your disposal to do that massive job of organising the

:45:19.:45:25.

bottom ten million low-paid people in Britain. I think the Labour

:45:25.:45:29.

Party connection. Politics is not for ordinary people then. Quite the

:45:29.:45:33.

opposite. That is the whole discourse that we are hearing in

:45:33.:45:37.

Britain, it is all of a sudden trade unionists are starting to get

:45:37.:45:42.

a bid more influence in terms of this or that selection and it

:45:42.:45:46.

excites the posh people. You have no influence over the Labour Party.

:45:46.:45:50.

The posh people's politics is getting a bit unsettled that some

:45:50.:45:53.

how or another the trade unions are starting to exert a bit more

:45:53.:45:56.

influence than before, and it is exciting everyone. But the Labour

:45:56.:46:00.

Party has become posh under your, with your link. It is also about

:46:00.:46:04.

how you see politics in this country. It was quite clear from

:46:05.:46:11.

that piece there that it a lot of your members who don't see it in

:46:11.:46:17.

quite the direct lined way, linear way that you in the trade union

:46:17.:46:21.

leadership see the business of this country? That is true, we regularly

:46:21.:46:26.

poll our members, 48% of our members voted Labour last election.

:46:26.:46:30.

22% Conservative, 20% liberal. I'm not a political loader in a sense

:46:30.:46:36.

that I don't represent the Labour Party, I represent the CWU, but we

:46:36.:46:39.

want political influence. You need political influence on the

:46:39.:46:43.

coalition and employers, you need to be a stakeholder in the economy,

:46:43.:46:48.

not just narrowly focused on one political party. You and the whole

:46:48.:46:50.

trade union movement should be running a campaign for the living

:46:50.:46:54.

wage, there is huge support for it, Boris Johnson supports it, lots of

:46:54.:46:57.

Tories support it, and it is not happening. The CWU is involved in

:46:57.:47:03.

the living page, we pay our employees the living wage, we are

:47:03.:47:08.

looking for accreditation on that. But we do engage with other

:47:08.:47:14.

political parties. On behalf of the CWU. It is harder, surely?What I

:47:14.:47:18.

find fascinating this week is there is nothing that excites the media

:47:18.:47:21.

and political class in this country than talking about trade unions, it

:47:21.:47:25.

is the one area excluded from political life. We are the second-

:47:25.:47:28.

biggest voluntary organisation in Britain today, six million people

:47:28.:47:31.

join and are members of the trade union movement, the National Trust

:47:31.:47:36.

is the biggest. How much say do we get in that process. There is

:47:36.:47:40.

nothing excites the posh political consensus in this country an

:47:40.:47:43.

ordinary working people having a say. You would have a louder voice

:47:43.:47:47.

if you were not associated just with one political party I'm afraid.

:47:47.:47:51.

Thank you very much indeed. That's it for now, if we can make

:47:51.:47:54.

it into the office tomorrow through all the walking wounded executive,

:47:54.:48:04.
:48:04.:48:09.

we will have lots more that the Temperatures reached 28 Celsius in

:48:09.:48:12.

the best of the sunshineed to, but the sunshine wasn't as widespread

:48:12.:48:17.

as recent days, we will make that right tomorrow, Earl legal cloud

:48:17.:48:21.

across eastern areas will burn back on the coast, most of us in the

:48:21.:48:25.

same boat. Patchy cloud, Northern Ireland and Scotland. The warm

:48:25.:48:30.

spots 27, 28 degrees, an isolated thundery downpour into the

:48:30.:48:33.

Grampians, most dry. Clearly where you have the sunshine here and

:48:33.:48:37.

across northern England, compared with the cloud today it will have

:48:37.:48:44.

an impact on the temperature, higher through the Midlands. Cloud

:48:44.:48:47.

in Lincolnshire, but it will be a brighter and warmer day at Trent

:48:47.:48:50.

Bridge, for the Test Match and southern England. The sunshine

:48:50.:48:54.

lighting up the ground, maybe not quite as warm across south-west

:48:54.:48:58.

England and Wales, temperatures easily into the 20s, light winds,

:48:58.:49:02.

glorious afternoon to come. But will it last? As we go deeper into

:49:02.:49:06.

the week. Looking into Friday it will. Plenty of sunshine again, and

:49:06.:49:11.

actually on Friday, temperatures will be even higher, some spots

:49:11.:49:14.

near 30, parts of north-east England down to Yorkshire, into the

:49:14.:49:17.

Midlands for example, it will be another cracking day to come. Let's

:49:17.:49:21.

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