18/07/2013 Newsnight


18/07/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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Thousands take to the streets of Moscow as the main opposition

:00:12.:00:17.

leader is jailed in what protestors call a show trial. Alexei Navalny,

:00:17.:00:23.

sentenced to five years for fraud, was his real crime simply to be a

:00:23.:00:28.

political threat. As Putin's brutal state, has it created a martyr for

:00:28.:00:32.

the opposition? We hear from Moscow. Also tonight, one of the most

:00:32.:00:36.

dangerous journeys on earth, the horrific abuse, kidnap and rape of

:00:36.:00:40.

thousands of African migrants with who try to cross Yemen in the

:00:40.:00:50.
:00:50.:00:53.

Police numbers down, crime down too. Does that mean we can have an even

:00:53.:01:00.

smaller police force? As a great model t goes like a bomb, and the

:01:00.:01:09.

cars's not bad either. Years after all Partridge, has anything changed

:01:09.:01:19.
:01:19.:01:21.

for sexism in court, Harriet Harman says just ban any all-male clubs.

:01:21.:01:25.

Good evening, Russia's opposition leader was sent to prison today,

:01:25.:01:30.

his crime, probably that of being too popular, too threatening to one

:01:30.:01:34.

Vladimir Putin. Alexei Navalny's show trial has sparked protests on

:01:34.:01:37.

the streets of Moscow and condemnation from around the world.

:01:37.:01:45.

He signed off with his supporters "don't dawdle the frog won't jump

:01:45.:01:49.

from the oil pipes himself", that loses something in translation. We

:01:49.:01:54.

ask tonight if the opposition movement is dead, or if Putin has

:01:54.:02:00.

created a martyr. How will the west deal with one more round of Putin's

:02:00.:02:05.

political bullying. It is OK, try not to miss me says

:02:05.:02:08.

Alexei Navalny's last tweet before they took him down. And most of all

:02:08.:02:15.

he said "don't be lazy". He will do five years in prison for fraud. His

:02:15.:02:19.

real crime, say his supporters, was to become the leader of the

:02:19.:02:23.

opposition movement which swept Russia's streets after the 2011

:02:23.:02:29.

election. This verdict is a sign of fear from the authorities. They are

:02:29.:02:33.

afraid to let even the slightest competition in the political

:02:33.:02:42.

process. I believe that these events are just another step and it

:02:42.:02:49.

will lead to widening of the political support and of the public

:02:49.:02:54.

opinion in favour of political change and liberalisation of

:02:54.:02:59.

political processes in Russia. Russian prosecutors made it clear

:02:59.:03:02.

they targeted Navalny and sped up the prosecution against him because

:03:02.:03:06.

of his public role. All the evidence against him came from one

:03:06.:03:10.

co-defendant who had turned state's witness, who the defence were not

:03:10.:03:16.

allowed to cross-examine. Navalny, a law graduate, rose to fame as a

:03:16.:03:19.

blogger, he is posing alleged corruption in Russian business and

:03:19.:03:23.

politics. He dubbed Putin's party "the party of crooks and thieves".

:03:23.:03:28.

When evidence of ballot-rigginging emerged in the election of December

:03:28.:03:32.

2011, Navalny's influence moved off the Internet and on to the streets.

:03:32.:03:37.

As the demonstrations grew, the sight of the left, alongside

:03:37.:03:44.

liberals and nationalists terrified Putin. And behind Navalny there are

:03:44.:03:48.

scores of acts, like this woman, whose lives have been invaded by

:03:48.:03:52.

the authorities for their role in the demos. For example the

:03:52.:03:58.

authorities came to my flat with the childcare and asked if I'm a

:03:58.:04:04.

bad mother. And they told me that they had some whistleblower

:04:04.:04:08.

information that I hit my son. That is not true. They asked what

:04:08.:04:12.

English books are doing on the shelves. Books in English and they

:04:12.:04:19.

told me that's very bad that I have books in two languages. That was

:04:19.:04:24.

actually, they talked to the childcare. That was just

:04:24.:04:30.

intimidation. Navalny's harsh sentence comes after the jailing of

:04:30.:04:35.

Pussy Riot, after they staged a protest in Moscow's Cathedral. And

:04:35.:04:39.

last month, Vladimir Putin took Russian justice to new territory

:04:39.:04:46.

with the posthumous trial of Sergei Magnitzi, an opposition lawyer,

:04:46.:04:51.

widely believed to have been murdered in custody. This was the

:04:51.:04:57.

final step in Russia's transition of being a managed democracy to

:04:57.:05:01.

outright dictatorship. Putin is used to sustaining his position

:05:01.:05:05.

through consent to some extent. It may have been manipulated but it

:05:05.:05:08.

may have been genuinely there. Now the system can only sustain through

:05:08.:05:12.

fear. All the people who have posed a threat to Vladimir Putin are

:05:12.:05:17.

either in exile, in prison or dead. Navalny's latest gambit had been to

:05:17.:05:20.

stand for election as Mayor of Moscow, where he was running second.

:05:20.:05:24.

He will be barred from the election now. Even though life has got

:05:24.:05:27.

better for most Russians under Vladimir Putin checkically, there

:05:27.:05:32.

is still money flowing out of the country because the -- economically,

:05:32.:05:38.

there is still money flowing out of the country because the rich don't

:05:38.:05:43.

trust the system. Navalny stood it old liberals and appealing to some

:05:43.:05:50.

nationalists and the left. The nationalists form part of Putin's

:05:50.:05:57.

base, this was highly convenient for Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin

:05:57.:06:00.

will doubtlessly try to use St Petersburg to strengthen his

:06:00.:06:04.

support at home and legitimacy abroad. It is very important that

:06:04.:06:08.

western leaders don't collaborate in allowing him to do that. I don't

:06:08.:06:10.

expect that President Obama or David Cameron or Angela Merkel will

:06:10.:06:14.

refuse to take part in the summit, and nor should they. But I think it

:06:14.:06:19.

is very important they say publicly and to Vladimir Putin's face

:06:19.:06:22.

privately that they consider Alexei Navalny to be a political prisoner

:06:22.:06:26.

and his continued imprisonment to be a violation of Russia's

:06:26.:06:32.

international norms. After the verdict the protests were muted.

:06:32.:06:36.

More watching and waiting than action. It didn't stop the Russian

:06:36.:06:40.

police from their time-honoured response. But the Kremlin will

:06:40.:06:46.

watch nervously the political reaction in weeks to come.

:06:46.:06:53.

A little earlier I spoke to an anti-Putin dissident granted asylum

:06:53.:07:00.

here in Britain after he fled Russia amid fears of for his life,

:07:00.:07:07.

and Sergei Markov. I started on the subject of how fair the trial was.

:07:08.:07:12.

The judge barred the defence from calling 13 key witnesses, defence

:07:12.:07:15.

lawyers weren't allowed to cross- examine their key witness, even

:07:15.:07:18.

your federal investigative committee admitted that Navalny had,

:07:18.:07:23.

as they said, made himself a target by his activism. That is pretty

:07:23.:07:29.

much an admission? Know, of course we have a lot of different

:07:29.:07:39.
:07:39.:07:40.

activists, we have very active political rivals of Vladimir Putin.

:07:40.:07:46.

A lot of them and none of them was regarded as guilty for corruption.

:07:46.:07:51.

To be in a position it does not mean that you are absolutely not

:07:51.:07:56.

corrupt. Most of the opposition is not corrupt, they continue their

:07:56.:08:00.

activities. And one opposition appeared to be corrupted, it is

:08:01.:08:08.

Alexei Navalny. Have you read the case of Navalny? Have you read the

:08:08.:08:13.

huge case or not, or just you think that he was corrupt? It is not

:08:14.:08:19.

about Navalny, today what happened Russia showed the world that every

:08:19.:08:24.

person who has a different opinion to the Government, from the Putin

:08:25.:08:28.

regime, this person could be detained and sent to prison for

:08:28.:08:31.

their political views. We both know in Russia we don't have independent

:08:32.:08:37.

courts or freedoms and rights. How you could say that he was corrupt

:08:37.:08:46.

by this court in Kirov? It is not a court. You know it is the court, it

:08:46.:08:53.

is a court recognised by your political friends as guilty, that

:08:53.:08:58.

is not a military court. We see in every European country such kind of

:08:58.:09:03.

accusations of courts from those politicians who regard it as to be

:09:03.:09:09.

corrupted. Recognise that Alexei Navalny stole this money. What's

:09:09.:09:13.

left of the movement that had so much traction back in December of

:09:13.:09:21.

2011? The problem is that it's not, this case is not about Navalny. Of

:09:21.:09:25.

course this is a case about all Russian people who are living now

:09:25.:09:31.

in the country. This case has shown that Putin's regime will fight with

:09:31.:09:35.

the people like Alexei Navalny. haven't got enough of the people

:09:35.:09:40.

behind you, when we saw this kind of outrage in the Arab Spring, we

:09:40.:09:45.

saw revolution, why haven't we seen it in Russia? The problem is TV

:09:45.:09:50.

propaganda, all the TV in Russian and most of the newspapers are

:09:50.:09:58.

ruled by the Kremlin. They are maybe not officially ruled by the

:09:58.:10:03.

Kremlin as they have official newspapers, but we know that co-

:10:03.:10:06.

operation from the Kremlin, people who are around Putin. That is the

:10:06.:10:09.

same in every regime where they have a leader that they want to

:10:10.:10:14.

overthrow, of course you can always say propaganda? The problem is

:10:14.:10:18.

people couldn't get true information, they couldn't analyse

:10:18.:10:23.

information. They got only information from official TV

:10:23.:10:27.

channels. And hasn't President Putin done the most wonderful thing

:10:27.:10:34.

for Navalny tonight, a shot in the arm, he has made him a martyr?

:10:34.:10:40.

You know, first of all it is our colleague just informed you about

:10:40.:10:45.

the situation with the media. I agree that most of the channels,

:10:45.:10:53.

but not for sure not all of the T channels, but the majority -- TV

:10:53.:10:57.

channels, but the majority support the Government. Most of the print

:10:57.:11:01.

media, especially central Moscow print media most of them are very

:11:01.:11:06.

critical to the Government and even close to opposition. So it is

:11:06.:11:12.

absolutely not true that the Russian people don't look at the

:11:12.:11:18.

Russian people has stupid people who have no information. No. (all

:11:18.:11:22.

speaking at once) because the Internet for the Russian population.

:11:22.:11:27.

How many people use the Internet. Let's tell the truth to the world,

:11:27.:11:30.

come on. Andrei Sidelnikov, let me move you on, tomorrow we are going

:11:30.:11:34.

to see the G20 in Russia, leaders from all over the world, would you

:11:34.:11:40.

like to see prop action against that now? I think that leaders from

:11:40.:11:44.

the European countries or the United States they could tell Mr

:11:44.:11:50.

Putin that in Russia there is no freedoms and rights. And they need

:11:50.:11:55.

to ban Russia from G8, first of all, they need to tell him that they

:11:55.:12:04.

will boycott the Olympic Games in 20 14, next year if the Russian

:12:04.:12:09.

people can't be given the constitution for freedom of human

:12:09.:12:14.

rights. People are support such a politician which won't (all

:12:14.:12:20.

speaking at once) Thank you both very much. It is absolutely

:12:20.:12:23.

outrageous, this is sick but not political group. They are hated by

:12:23.:12:27.

their own people, because they hate their own country. We don't hate,

:12:27.:12:36.

come on. Thank you very much indeed. Later in the programme:

:12:36.:12:43.

Football and sitting on washing machines. Is this broadly how we

:12:43.:12:51.

see women and supported? It is one of the most dangerous journeys

:12:51.:12:55.

anyone can make, it is one of the biggest economic migrations in the

:12:55.:12:58.

world. Every months thousands from across the Horn of Africa try to

:12:58.:13:01.

reach the farms and factories of Saudi Arabia trying to better their

:13:01.:13:07.

lives. But to do so they must cross through Djibouti, the strait of

:13:07.:13:11.

Babel, and up through Yemen where they fall prey to people

:13:11.:13:14.

traffickers, kidnappers, sexual abuse and torture. There is

:13:14.:13:18.

evidence that the Yemeni military is involved in people trafficking

:13:18.:13:28.
:13:28.:13:28.

and that sexual abuse. Some of the my grants' -- migrants' stories, as

:13:28.:13:34.

you can imagine are horrific. This is the undertaker of Harad.

:13:34.:13:39.

This is a Yemeni smuggling town on the border of Saudi Arabia. For

:13:39.:13:44.

centuries the town has thrived on gun running and drugs smuggling.

:13:44.:13:49.

Now the commodity is people. Today they are burying an Ethiopian,

:13:49.:13:59.
:13:59.:14:11.

another migrant found dead at the The journey that ends in death for

:14:11.:14:19.

so many begins here. 300 miles to the south. This man is a people

:14:19.:14:27.

trafficker. He ferries migrants across the Red Sea. He says his

:14:27.:14:34.

smuggling ring will make $300 per person, he must pay a cut to the

:14:34.:14:44.
:14:44.:14:58.

He carries 40 people in his boat, they risk dehydration and exposure,

:14:58.:15:02.

some boats are so full that people suffocate. The migrants are

:15:02.:15:07.

desperate for work, and the promise of a better life in Saudi Arabia.

:15:07.:15:13.

But first, they must cross Yemen. Criminal gangs roam freely, robbery,

:15:13.:15:17.

abuse and sexual exploitation are common place. Migrants face being

:15:17.:15:25.

caught, tortured and sold for profit. Thousands arrive on these

:15:25.:15:29.

shores every month. These pictures show soldiers combing the beach.

:15:29.:15:33.

They will take the migrants to camps run by the Red Cross. But we

:15:33.:15:38.

have evidence that some soldiers are working with the people

:15:38.:15:48.
:15:48.:15:59.

Haile experienced the shakedown, says those who can pay are released,

:15:59.:16:02.

those without are sold to kidnappers, kidnappeders who

:16:02.:16:11.

torture. -- kidnappers who torture. Haile was held in what is known as

:16:11.:16:15.

a torture camp. Thousands of migrants are being kidnapped and

:16:15.:16:25.
:16:25.:16:38.

beaten in torture camps across Yemen. Haile was tortured until his

:16:38.:16:45.

family paid the ranson to release him. -- ranson to release him.

:16:45.:16:49.

Getting past the beach is just the first step in this extraordinary

:16:49.:16:57.

journey. Saudi Arabia is still a 300 mile walk through the desert.

:16:57.:17:01.

We met these migrants on their way to the border town of Harad. They

:17:01.:17:09.

have been walking for 40 days. Where are you going? Saudi.What do

:17:09.:17:19.
:17:19.:17:20.

you expect to find when you get there? Have you had any trouble so

:17:20.:17:30.
:17:30.:17:41.

Yemen is a failing state, the turbulence of the Arab Spring led

:17:41.:17:49.

to the ousting of the President, and an erosion of Government power.

:17:49.:17:53.

In this vacuum the migrants can cross Yemen, but gangs of

:17:53.:18:03.
:18:03.:18:08.

kidnappers and torturers can also operate at will. Ift car had made

:18:08.:18:13.

the journey with friends, they had come looking for work, hoping to

:18:13.:18:15.

make money for their families. He was kidnapped, and his father was

:18:15.:18:20.

told he needed to pay $3 pun pun to release him. He was told to borrow

:18:20.:18:30.
:18:30.:18:31.

the money and wire it toe kidnappers. This footage shows the

:18:31.:18:36.

inside of a torture camp, it was shot by Medecins sans frontier,

:18:36.:18:42.

during a series of Government raids in April. Over 1600 migrants were

:18:42.:18:46.

freed. Many had been beaten, some had their finger nails pulled out

:18:46.:18:52.

or their tongues partially cut off. Others said they had been beaten

:18:52.:18:58.

with pipes, burned with cigarettes or had linment poured in their eyes.

:18:58.:19:02.

The new gang wanted another $250, his father couldn't borrow any more

:19:03.:19:12.
:19:13.:19:21.

money. None of the families comfortable This man is 23, he will

:19:21.:19:31.
:19:31.:19:40.

He's now at this centre in Harad, inside these walls the migrants are

:19:40.:19:46.

safe. The centre is full of people who have been tortured, it is run

:19:46.:19:50.

by the International Orgaization for Migration. This is a

:19:50.:19:55.

humanitarian crisis, the main thing that we need to provide them with

:19:55.:19:59.

is voluntary return. Everybody wants to go to their country of

:19:59.:20:08.

origin. They are shocked by the reality that they have faced.

:20:08.:20:15.

me your henna? Iftar is 17. She walked 300 miles over the Ethiopian

:20:15.:20:19.

mountains to Djibouti, there she paid the traffickers to ferry her

:20:19.:20:29.
:20:29.:20:48.

to Yemen. She and her friends were Iftar was kept at the camp for

:20:48.:20:51.

three months. She was too ashamed by what the gang was doing to call

:20:52.:21:01.
:21:02.:21:12.

her parents and ask for money. So she was raped every day. Then I

:21:13.:21:22.
:21:23.:21:31.

asked Iftar who the kidnappers were? Asma is 16, she got all the

:21:31.:21:41.
:21:41.:21:44.

way to the Saudi border before she was arrested by Yemeni soldiers.

:21:44.:21:54.
:21:54.:22:03.

How do you know that money was exchanged did you see it? Do you

:22:03.:22:13.
:22:13.:22:19.

know how much money you were sold for? She was raped by two,

:22:19.:22:24.

sometimes three men every day for two months. She got out because one

:22:24.:22:29.

of her captors, she says, felt pity for her. I spoke to some of the

:22:29.:22:33.

people who run this camp and they say they have heard other stories

:22:33.:22:37.

like this. That men in Yemeni military fatigues captured women,

:22:37.:22:43.

sold them to rapists and in some cases raped them themselves. We

:22:43.:22:46.

requested an interview with the Yemeni Government about the

:22:46.:22:54.

treatment of migrants, but our request was declined. There are 200

:22:54.:23:00.

torture camps in this part of yes mam machine alone. A local judge

:23:00.:23:07.

offers a safe passage to visit one. One of his soldiers accompanies --

:23:07.:23:12.

Yemen alone. A local judge offers safe passage to give one, a guard

:23:12.:23:17.

comes with us to keep us safe. When we arrive one of the guards runs

:23:17.:23:22.

off, he's gone to find the owner. Inside there are two guards and

:23:22.:23:32.
:23:32.:23:39.

five migrants. We asked them if they have been abused? I ask have

:23:39.:23:49.
:23:49.:23:53.

they tried to escape? We spot the entrance to a small room at the

:23:53.:23:57.

edge of the compound. Can we go inside? The soldier says this is

:23:57.:24:01.

where they take the women, he says what is going on behind the door

:24:02.:24:08.

could be haram, meaning forbidden. We have just been told the room

:24:08.:24:13.

here is what the torturers use for rape. We can hear the sound of a

:24:13.:24:20.

man and a woman in the room. A man appears with a pistol on his belt,

:24:20.:24:30.
:24:30.:24:31.

he is the owner of the camp. Does torture exist here? Are there any

:24:31.:24:41.

women in this farm? We are escorted out. We do not know for sure what

:24:41.:24:46.

was taking place in the room at the back. But the men we spoke to were

:24:46.:24:50.

being held against their will. With then spoke to a senior local police

:24:50.:24:54.

officer, we told him what we had seen, the next day all the migrants

:24:54.:25:03.

in the camp were released. This is the Saudi border, these mountains,

:25:03.:25:09.

the final barrier to the Promised Land. Behind the ridges are

:25:09.:25:13.

thermal-images cameras, electric fencing and a flood lit security

:25:13.:25:23.
:25:23.:25:26.

barrier. It is now an almost impossible crossing. Haile had

:25:26.:25:31.

survived the torture camp, he had walked 300 miles across the desert.

:25:31.:25:41.
:25:41.:26:03.

Haile hung from that tree for two days. He remembers very little, but

:26:03.:26:09.

he thinks it was soldiers who cut him down and drove him to a Saudi

:26:09.:26:13.

hospital. He was so badly injured that when he awoke doctors had

:26:13.:26:22.

amputated his left arm. He thinks his friends are probably dead.

:26:22.:26:26.

Despite the fact that so few make it, there is no sign that the flow

:26:26.:26:31.

of migrants is ebbing. And people trafficking in Yemen is worth tens

:26:31.:26:35.

of millions of dollars. You are looking at thousands of people and

:26:35.:26:38.

you are looking at the amount of money that's going back and forth,

:26:38.:26:42.

it must have been huge for these numbers to be here. Human

:26:42.:26:46.

trafficking is one of the most profitable businesses in the world

:26:46.:26:52.

now. If you perceive the numbers, it seems there is big business

:26:52.:26:56.

going on. People smuggling generates profit at every stage of

:26:56.:27:02.

the journey. Everyone has a stake, from the Ethiopian borders through

:27:02.:27:05.

the Yemeni military through to the guards at the Saudi border.

:27:05.:27:10.

Stopping this will require a serious international effort. For

:27:10.:27:14.

the moment those efforts are just beginning. But still, the

:27:15.:27:20.

Ethiopians come. 40,000 migrants arrived in Yemen during the first

:27:20.:27:26.

five months of this year. Those new migrants will still head for the

:27:26.:27:34.

Saudi border, they will still face exploitation, beatings and rape.

:27:34.:27:44.
:27:44.:27:49.

And the undertaker will continue to bury the dead. So, were you in the

:27:49.:27:53.

pro-flip-flop camp last night, was the skirt too twice, too patriotic,

:27:53.:27:59.

or the skirt too short or long, women broadcasters have got through

:27:59.:28:05.

an intense sexist focus on how they look, sportswomen we might guess

:28:05.:28:10.

have too. The comments by John Inverdale about Marion Bartoli at

:28:10.:28:15.

Wimbledon, were unusual because they were said outloud. But sexism

:28:15.:28:20.

is alive and kicking in sport. Maria Miller boycotted the Open

:28:20.:28:25.

championship held at a male-only club. Harriet Harman challenged her

:28:26.:28:31.

to go further and boycott all, all- male clubs.

:28:31.:28:37.

One more thing, it is a great model, it goes like a bomb and the car's

:28:37.:28:45.

not bad either. Alan Partridge making his name on the Day Today

:28:45.:28:52.

two decades ago. Smoky lady.His attitude isn't that far off John

:28:52.:28:55.

Inverdale, during his Wimbledon coverage. I wonder if her dad did

:28:55.:28:59.

say to her when she was 12, 13, 14 maybe, listen you are never going

:28:59.:29:03.

to be a looker, you are never going to be someone with long legs so you

:29:03.:29:07.

have to compensate with that, you are going to have to be the most

:29:07.:29:12.

dogged, determined fighter than anyone has seen on the tennis court.

:29:12.:29:16.

Inverdale apologised to Bartoli, this week Maria Miller demanded to

:29:16.:29:20.

know what further action the director of the BBC would be taking.

:29:20.:29:25.

Tony Hall hit back that it had been made clear his comments were

:29:25.:29:28.

unacceptable, but said the BBC would continue to enhance coverage

:29:28.:29:34.

of women's sport. Everyone thought the world of women's sport would

:29:34.:29:38.

change after the Olympic Games, but a two-week tournament won't do that.

:29:38.:29:42.

It highlights to us if you give women that platform they can

:29:42.:29:46.

perform and achieve at the highest level. It is more complicated to

:29:46.:29:50.

get women into the papers all year round. This weekend sports fans

:29:50.:29:54.

will have to choose between the golf at the Open, the Ashes and

:29:54.:29:57.

Tour de France, maybe women's sport can't compare. All you have to do

:29:57.:30:01.

is watch the World Cup, it was on this year in January in India, it

:30:01.:30:05.

was the women's cricket World Cup, it was fantastic, great cricket,

:30:05.:30:11.

there were tight games, sixes, boundaries, wickets, it was just as

:30:11.:30:15.

exciting as any mens' World Cup. It is ignorance on the part of most

:30:15.:30:19.

people, because they haven't come across it. Europe get ready,

:30:19.:30:24.

England are coming to take on your best. The BBC and other

:30:24.:30:26.

broadcasters have committed to increasing coverage of women's

:30:26.:30:31.

sport. The BBC heavily trailed its coverage of the Euro 2012

:30:32.:30:34.

tournament. And England's matches have viewer figures of more than a

:30:35.:30:38.

million. But, flick through the sports pages and it doesn't much

:30:38.:30:43.

look like a woman's world, wait there is a girl? Well a girlfriend.

:30:43.:30:46.

When it comes to deciding what subjects we cover in the newspaper,

:30:46.:30:50.

but all the research we do indicates the vast majority of the

:30:50.:30:53.

readers of the sports section are men, even of the quarter of our

:30:53.:30:58.

readers who are female, a lot prefers sport. It is not a problem

:30:58.:31:02.

I can solve on my own by putting women into the paper, it needs a

:31:03.:31:07.

more radical approach. consolation is we are not the only

:31:07.:31:13.

ones with a problem, this the ad the German public broadcaster did

:31:13.:31:20.

to promote its team in the European tournament. Joining us now Harriet

:31:20.:31:23.

Harman the shadow Culture Secretary, who has launched a campaign to

:31:23.:31:29.

improve the coverage of women's sports and ban all-male sports

:31:29.:31:34.

clubs. And Louise Hazel who competed in the hepathlon at the

:31:34.:31:38.

Olympic Games last year. Talks through your experience as a woman

:31:38.:31:44.

in sport, have you always been aware of sexism? Yes, definitely.

:31:44.:31:50.

Unfortunately you know going back just to 20123, tome mates, myself

:31:50.:31:55.

and also from Team GB were subject to comments about our weight in our

:31:55.:31:59.

preparations for one of the biggest competitions of our lives. We only

:31:59.:32:04.

have to looks a far back as 2011 to the sports personality nominees to

:32:04.:32:08.

see that there were no female nomination, that to me was a major

:32:08.:32:15.

indication of there still exists the problem of sexism in sport.

:32:15.:32:18.

there no nominations because there isn't as much coverage in the first

:32:18.:32:21.

place? Yes, I think it is definitely something that needs to

:32:21.:32:24.

be addressed. It is definitely moving forward and improving.

:32:24.:32:27.

Having seen the women's football and cricket mentioned there. But it

:32:27.:32:31.

is definitely still a work in progress. But I feel there were

:32:31.:32:36.

women that were Wellworthy of nominations but more important --

:32:36.:32:42.

well worthy of nominations but were perhaps overshadowed by male

:32:42.:32:47.

performances. I don't think the people nominating, some of the

:32:47.:32:52.

men's magazines mentioned who didn't feel that women were worthy

:32:52.:32:56.

or deserving of the publicity they deserved. You have done coverage,

:32:56.:33:01.

you have done modelling shoots for GQ and all the rest of it, was that

:33:01.:33:06.

a pressure to, I don't know to get coverage for the sport or did you

:33:06.:33:11.

feel objectifyed by doing that? for me it was a personal choice. I

:33:11.:33:13.

think every female sports person should be able to express

:33:13.:33:20.

themselves in their own way. But by no means under pressure. To give in

:33:20.:33:25.

to that sense of being objectfied by males. For me that was something

:33:25.:33:29.

that was personal. You just started golf. Do you want to play it, do

:33:29.:33:39.

you feel looked out of a major part of the golfing world? I feel

:33:39.:33:42.

bringing a ban to all-male membership clubs would be a step in

:33:42.:33:45.

the right direction. Last year I was invited to a number of golf

:33:45.:33:49.

days I was surprised the fact that there were no female facilities and

:33:49.:33:55.

I had to go and get changed in the spa. Which definitely made me feel

:33:55.:33:59.

like a second rate citizen, it didn't make me feel comfortable.

:33:59.:34:04.

Maria Miller straight away batted back your suggestion to ban all-

:34:04.:34:07.

male clubs, where do you go from here? I didn't know she had done

:34:07.:34:11.

that. Addison appointing. David Cameron, the Prime Minister -- that

:34:11.:34:15.

is disappointing. David Cameron said in relation to the Muirfield,

:34:15.:34:20.

it is old fashioned, it is an knackism, men-only golf clubs

:34:20.:34:23.

should be a thing of the past, I welcomed that. Nick Clegg, the

:34:23.:34:27.

Deputy Prime Minister said it shouldn't be happening. Maria

:34:27.:34:32.

Miller herself is objecting to it sufficient to do a boycott. And my

:34:32.:34:37.

point is, that actually there is an exemption for men-only sports clubs

:34:37.:34:41.

which allows them to carry on discriminating, that is in the

:34:41.:34:44.

Equality Act t allows them an exemption. I'm saying instead of

:34:44.:34:48.

ringing your hands and speaking out against them, why not have a cross-

:34:48.:34:51.

party alliance and say if you are running a sports club you have to

:34:51.:34:55.

allow women in on the same terms as men. But also the point Louise was

:34:55.:35:02.

making about sponsorship. It is incredible that 0.5% of the

:35:02.:35:07.

sponsorship that there is, commercial sponsorship goes to men,

:35:07.:35:14.

goes to women, sorry, for men it is 99.5%. And therefore the women have

:35:14.:35:20.

to get sponsorship you know, and yet women got a third of the

:35:20.:35:27.

Olympic medals and nearly half of the Paralympic medals and yet 0.5 %

:35:27.:35:29.

of the sponsorship. The Government money that goes into sport, there

:35:29.:35:33.

is a lot of money that rightly goes into sport, the lion's share of

:35:33.:35:37.

this public money goes to men in sport and it is public money that

:35:37.:35:41.

should go equally to women. Would you like there to be equal coverage

:35:41.:35:45.

right now on the BBC elsewhere of women's sports, would you like to

:35:46.:35:49.

say 50-50? I would like them to do much more to give a proper showing

:35:49.:35:52.

for women's sport. I actually think. But you wouldn't legislation, you

:35:53.:35:57.

wouldn't say come on we have to do this? I wouldn't legislation for

:35:57.:36:01.

the BBC or even commercial broadcasters to legislate for their

:36:01.:36:04.

editorial content. But one of the things that I think we should do

:36:04.:36:07.

right now, because there is a whole load of things that have come

:36:07.:36:11.

together on this is that the parliamentary Select Committee on

:36:11.:36:16.

culture, media and sport, ought ought to do an inquiry into women's

:36:16.:36:24.

sports. Back to the golf course, did it worry you that Muirfield was

:36:24.:36:28.

a all-male club in 2002 when it held the championships and you were

:36:28.:36:32.

in power? In the Equality Act that I took through parliament, we

:36:32.:36:35.

actually put that exemption in because we couldn't get an

:36:35.:36:39.

agreement to end the exemption. There has always been this

:36:39.:36:42.

exemption for men-only sports clubs I wanted to take it out but we were

:36:42.:36:46.

having so many rows on so many things we should have. Now is the

:36:46.:36:53.

time to do it now that the Prime Minister is saying that he is

:36:53.:36:57.

against it. Now they are in power? There is cross-party agreement on,

:36:57.:37:00.

we didn't want the act to fall because of that. There is a chance

:37:00.:37:04.

to amend it. Louise, what would be the single most important thing as

:37:04.:37:12.

a woman athlete? For there to be justice after London 2012 won ban

:37:12.:37:15.

on male-membership only clubs. We have earned that right and proved

:37:15.:37:18.

to ourselves we are worthy of competing on a world stage and

:37:18.:37:22.

being successful on it. I think as part of the Olympic legacy that is

:37:22.:37:27.

something that should definitely be addressed. Thank you very much.

:37:27.:37:31.

What are we to make of the cor relation between lower crime

:37:31.:37:38.

figures and fewer police figures, the latest figures show crime

:37:38.:37:43.

falling down to 9%, all that with fewer PCs, is it a statistical

:37:43.:37:47.

anomally, a lag between one set of figures and the next. Or is it a

:37:47.:37:54.

whole new way of thinking of ring- fencing, the slaughtering of some

:37:54.:37:59.

sacred cows. It is not obvious why we should want to hark back to 1981.

:37:59.:38:04.

There was the rioting, the Cold War was alive and well. The CND wanted

:38:04.:38:09.

the rally to be a demonstration. Charles and Di were taking their

:38:09.:38:13.

first steps into a deeply dysfuntional marriage. Speaking of

:38:13.:38:19.

splits, the breakaway SDP was formed. It is also the year that

:38:19.:38:23.

the British Crime Survey was born. It showed that crime figures were

:38:23.:38:28.

shooting upwards, peaking in the mid-1990s, only now, more than 30

:38:28.:38:35.

years later is crime back down to around the 1981 level. In west

:38:35.:38:40.

London the Prime Minister got the kind of reception politicians can

:38:40.:38:44.

only dream of. That is not the only reason why he had reason to smile.

:38:44.:38:49.

People don't expect crime figures to fall during an economic downturn.

:38:49.:38:53.

This is good news, we see a reduction both in recorded crime

:38:53.:38:57.

and in the British Crime Survey, showing that crime now is at its

:38:57.:39:00.

lowest level since 1981. We should congratulate the police, as a

:39:00.:39:04.

Government we have asked them to do more, but with less resources and

:39:04.:39:07.

they have performed, I think, magnificently. I think also all the

:39:07.:39:09.

work that's gone into crime prevention has made a difference

:39:09.:39:13.

too. But this is good news, Britain is getting safer as well as

:39:13.:39:19.

stronger. This photo opportunity with officers in their latest

:39:19.:39:22.

gizmos, is designed to show that good policing isn't all about the

:39:22.:39:27.

number of bobbies you employ. But how efficient they are. By 2015 the

:39:27.:39:32.

police are expected to have cut 15,000 jobs. This is a pretty

:39:32.:39:35.

golden day politically for the Government. They are able to say

:39:35.:39:39.

that they are keeping us safer for less money? I don't think it is a

:39:39.:39:42.

golden day for the Government. I think it is a golden day for the

:39:42.:39:44.

hard working police officers up and down the country who have responded

:39:44.:39:49.

to the savage cuts the Government imposed on the Police Servicement

:39:49.:39:53.

despite that we are trying to keep service at a level -- Police

:39:53.:39:56.

Service. Despite that we are trying to keep service on the level. We

:39:56.:40:00.

are at breaking points and the cuts for the next 12-18 months are going

:40:00.:40:05.

to impact on crime figures and on public safety, despite the best

:40:05.:40:08.

efforts of police forces around the country. Can the Government or the

:40:08.:40:13.

police really take credit for the numbers falling, afterall this is

:40:13.:40:21.

what's happening to crime in many European countries.

:40:21.:40:25.

Criminalologists can't agree on what's happening. Some explanations

:40:25.:40:29.

are simple, we bang more people up, CCTV, some are surprising, young

:40:30.:40:35.

people drink less, and some are bizarre, there is less lead in

:40:35.:40:39.

petrol and paint. Maybe we are not asking the right question. If we

:40:39.:40:44.

take in say the last 200 years, we go back to the 19th century and

:40:44.:40:48.

take ourselves through to the Second World War, what we see is a

:40:48.:40:52.

long-term decline in crime. Decade after decade. And it is only after

:40:52.:40:56.

the Second World War that we see crime start to increase and

:40:56.:41:01.

increase very significantly. So the question we should really be asking

:41:01.:41:07.

ourselves is why the increase after the Second World War, not why it is

:41:07.:41:12.

declining now. It has to be a good day for any Government when they

:41:12.:41:16.

can claim to be safer and to have saved money. Is it interesting for

:41:16.:41:20.

another political reason, does it get easier for the Government to

:41:20.:41:23.

argue that it is possible to deliver high-quality public

:41:23.:41:26.

services on less money. What we have seen in policing has been a

:41:26.:41:31.

reform to how services work, reform to the work force, reform to how we

:41:31.:41:35.

organise policing, better use of technology, transformed delivery.

:41:35.:41:39.

And what the Government now needs to reflebt, it is fantastic they

:41:39.:41:41.

have recognised the achievements. What the Government now needs to

:41:41.:41:45.

reflect is can we achieve the same in other services such as health,

:41:45.:41:55.

education? Can crime be compared to education, when there seems to be

:41:55.:41:57.

so little agreement about why it happens, and whether Government

:41:57.:42:06.

ever has much effect on whether it goes up or down? Professor David

:42:06.:42:13.

Spiegelhalter is the Professor of Understanding Risk at Cambridge

:42:13.:42:20.

University, and author of The Norm Chronicles. Thank you very much for

:42:20.:42:27.

joining us. It seems such a neat co-relation, how do you read the

:42:27.:42:30.

numbers? As a sceptical statistician I ask do I believe the

:42:30.:42:35.

numbers at all? In this case I do, it isth has backed up the police

:42:35.:42:40.

statistic -- because it has backed up the police statistics, and the

:42:40.:42:43.

crime survey for England and Wales. That is essentially looking at what

:42:43.:42:47.

the experience of lot of people and their families. As a statistician I

:42:47.:42:50.

would tend to believe that more. I do believe the figures that they

:42:50.:42:53.

are really going down. But the crucial thing is to look at the

:42:54.:42:57.

long-term trends, not just what has happened from last year. There is

:42:57.:43:01.

9% reduction in crime, which is great. But as you have heard in the

:43:01.:43:06.

report, there has been long-term trends from the 80s, it went up to

:43:06.:43:09.

the mid-90s, and then it has been coming down relentlessly. The

:43:10.:43:13.

change, the going up and down seems to be independent of the economic

:43:13.:43:16.

condition of the country. It is fantastic news that it is coming

:43:16.:43:20.

down, but there again it is coming down all over Europe and America

:43:20.:43:25.

and so on. And so trying to produce some simple explanation of why that

:43:25.:43:30.

is the case, yoing that is possible. Zo -- I don't think that is

:43:30.:43:32.

possible. Zoe raised the question of whether it was the Government

:43:32.:43:36.

and down to Government actions, what do you think are the plausible

:43:36.:43:41.

explanations for this? If you see it as a sort of pan-European trend?

:43:41.:43:48.

I think, you know, this is a deep social -- sociological matter that

:43:48.:43:51.

can be put down to explanation. We have heard of some of them and

:43:51.:43:54.

another is that for example cars are much more difficult to break in

:43:54.:44:01.

to. All that sort of petty crime is more difficult to take place. This

:44:01.:44:05.

implausible one about the lead in petrol has got an increasing amount

:44:05.:44:10.

of scientific backing that there is a 20-year lag between a substantial

:44:10.:44:13.

amount of lead in the petrol and paint, and children's exposure,

:44:13.:44:17.

small children and what they might get up to when they are older. And

:44:17.:44:19.

there is always sorts of explanations about these things

:44:19.:44:24.

that are not actually attributable to very simple changes and

:44:24.:44:28.

expenditure on policing whatever. But you could say that at least you

:44:28.:44:32.

know any changes to the Government that they have done have not

:44:32.:44:36.

actually stopped this extraordinarily, and very welcome

:44:36.:44:40.

downward trend. If we took that one step further and said maybe

:44:40.:44:43.

reducing police numbers even more could cut crime even more. Why

:44:44.:44:49.

doesn't that work as an equation? You know to make some rather simple

:44:49.:44:53.

causal explanation for these things I think would be very misleading

:44:53.:45:00.

indeed. Just to make an analogy, bicycle helmets, it seems

:45:00.:45:04.

completely obvious that bicycle helmets save lives, if you make

:45:04.:45:07.

them compulsory you will reduce head injuries. That is what has

:45:07.:45:11.

happened, head injuries have gone down in country and states that

:45:11.:45:15.

have introduced mandatory cycle helmets. When you look to the

:45:15.:45:19.

states and Canada that haven't introduced the measures, the rates

:45:19.:45:23.

have gone down at the same rates, there was no effect of the

:45:23.:45:27.

mandatory laws. You can't make the simple causal explanations between

:45:27.:45:31.

trends, and to say therefore if we do this it will go down even

:45:31.:45:35.

further. You write a lot about the sort of human factor, that's in

:45:35.:45:39.

risk as well. What do you think the public believes in terms of crime

:45:39.:45:49.

at the moment, what is your sense? A recent survey by the Royal

:45:49.:45:51.

Statistical Society, the majority of people think crime is going up.

:45:51.:45:56.

Only about a quarter of people think crime is going down, which it

:45:56.:46:00.

has been for nearly 20 years. You feel this is really unfortunate.

:46:00.:46:04.

People also have a feeling, actually a rather small number of

:46:04.:46:08.

people think that crime is a big problem in their area. A lot of

:46:08.:46:11.

people think it is a big problem for the country. I'm afraid to

:46:11.:46:16.

point the finger it has to go at the media. Almost the rarer events

:46:16.:46:20.

occur the bigger coverage they get and people think that these

:46:20.:46:24.

problems are really there when they have been going down. Homicides

:46:24.:46:28.

were at 550 last year, that is almost half the Number Ten years

:46:28.:46:31.

ago. That is a staggering achievement. -- half the number,

:46:31.:46:35.

ten years ago. That is a staggering achievement. Thank you very much

:46:35.:46:45.
:46:45.:47:13.

indeed. Let's just before we go That's all from tonight, I will be

:47:13.:47:20.

back tomorrow from all of us here a back tomorrow from all of us here a

:47:20.:47:30.
:47:30.:47:50.

Hello, today's hot spot was Bournemouth at 30.5. It wasn't as

:47:50.:47:53.

hot in south-east England, the areas seeing the highest

:47:53.:47:56.

temperature near 30 expanded further west. It is going to be

:47:56.:47:59.

another day of soaring temperatures to the western side of the UK.

:48:00.:48:03.

Further west you are in Northern Ireland, 28 degrees, could well see

:48:03.:48:06.

that in western Scotland. A hotter day to come here. Some cloud

:48:06.:48:10.

hugging the coast to the north in places, but the cloud brushing the

:48:10.:48:14.

coast of north-east England. Clouds to eastern areas will be more of an

:48:15.:48:20.

issue going into the weekend. It will feel cooler towards eastern

:48:20.:48:23.

coastal counties of England we may shave another degree off south-east

:48:23.:48:28.

England. With the sunshine and shade and the Eastleigh breeze is

:48:28.:48:30.

feels refreshing. For south-west England and North West England, the

:48:30.:48:37.

shot spots will be in the high 20s, to 30 there may be a late day in

:48:37.:48:41.

the North West of England. A hard thing to find if you are looking

:48:41.:48:44.

for. At Lords more sunshine to come here. Looking at things going to

:48:44.:48:47.

the start of the weekend, across the eastern side of Scotland and

:48:47.:48:50.

eastern England, there will be a lot of cloud around to start the

:48:50.:48:53.

day and for some eastern coastal counties in particular, some of

:48:53.:48:57.

that cloud will not clear and temperatures will be held down as a

:48:57.:49:01.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines. With Emily Maitlis.