12/08/2013 Newsnight


12/08/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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British capitalists for discriminating against British

:00:06.:00:14.

workers. The next it's praising them. Something got badly muddled

:00:14.:00:18.

when the party decided to try to make some noise on immigration and

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employment today. But behind the confusion has something gone badly

:00:26.:00:29.

wrong in the work place? Why can't young British people compete for

:00:29.:00:34.

jobs? They are taken up by foreigners who don't belong in this

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country, but we are wrong if we say anything about it.

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And then... We travel through Africa with

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Clinton senior and junior and find a former president who has decided to

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put his failure to prevent genocide in Rwanda behind him. Whatever guilt

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I had was taken away when I took responsibility for not helping them.

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And as Liverpool's most golden player rattles the golden chains

:01:02.:01:05.

which have kept him at the club, what's happened to the idea of

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:01:16.:01:19.

loyalty? We'll discuss whether that There are few more enjoyable

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spectacles in politics than watching people eat their own words. The

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Shadow Immigration Minister, Chris Bryant, tried another tack today,

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eating some of his words, and denying he'd ever planned to say

:01:29.:01:36.

others. By some freak of telepathy or clairvoyancy, newspaper reports

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had got him saying things he didn't believe about British employers and

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their alleged predilection for giving jobs to foreigners. But was

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he really onto something in the speech he didn't make? As Sancha

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Berg reports, it came after accusations that Labour wasn't

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making enough noise this summer. Over the last decade, the proportion

:01:59.:02:04.

of foreign born workers in Britain has increased by over 50%. Many

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migrant workers are in low skilled jobs. In many parts of the country

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now from the ago call turl east to the former industrial north-west.

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Surveys suggest for voters, immigration is a major concern.

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The Conservatives have taken the initiative. Most recently with

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controversial vans encouraging illegal migrants to leave. Coalition

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policies have cut net migration, but mostly for those from outside the

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European Union. Today, Labour outlined its own ideas. The Shadow

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Immigration Minister, Chris Bryant briefed newspapers over the weekend.

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Criticising Tesco and Next for hiring migrant workers. He accused

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Next of bringing Polish workers to Yorkshire because they were cheaper

:02:50.:02:55.

than the local workforce. Next denied that and the speech delivered

:02:55.:02:59.

was very different. The special ifk accusation dropped in favour of a

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general complaint. When agencies bring such a large number of workers

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of a specific nationality, at a time when there are one million young

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unemployed in Britain, it is right surely to ask why that is happening?

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It is not illegal for agencies to target foreign workers, but is it

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fair for them to be so exclusive? This is a former mining area. Nearly

:03:22.:03:27.

a quarter of young people are out of work here. Many are angry that Next

:03:27.:03:32.

brought in Polish workers and they complain that local young people had

:03:32.:03:36.

no chance to get the jobs. It is not easy. It is very

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difficult. You can't go to your Jobcentre. Most things are taken

:03:41.:03:45.

through agencies with the big companies that we have in the

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community mainly distribution. So it is not easy to get through to the

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companies themselves. You can get through internally, but not

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everybody is capable of doing that. You have to make contacts within the

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work forces. Next said it had not been able to recruit enough local

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people. Immigration is a tricky subject for the Labour Party. It

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was, of course, the last Labour Government which decided to allow

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Eastern Europeans to come and work freely here when their countries

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joined the European Union nine years ago, the Government predicted only a

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few thousand would come, but many hundreds of thousands made the

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journey and they are still coming. Research by the chart erd staot

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Chartered Institute for Personnel and Development suggests some

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employees are -- employers are recruiting migrant workers. We have

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seen a sharp increase in the number of EU workers. Many European

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economies are struggling. They have high areas of youth unemployment, we

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are seeing more applicants from the likes of Spain and Greece alongside

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Poland, but employers perceive migrant workers as having greater

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work ethic. More employers are asking mid-gropbt

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workers to help them recruit staff. What many were telling us if they

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value a of staff from Spain or Eastern Europe, they will offer a

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financial incentive for the employees to recruit a friend or

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relative. What that leads to is the development of a critical mass of

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not just migrant workers, but the migrant workers from narrow

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concentration of countries. Politicians might like to keep more

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British jobs for British work workers. In practise, lawyers say

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that's hard to do. Not without being discriminatory on the basis of

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nationality which is not legal in the UK. So in terms of European

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workers, they are entitled to work here and to live here. There isn't

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very much the Government can do in terms of trying to make employers

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hire British workers without running the risk they will be accused of

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being discriminatory. Any change would need fundamental

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reform and the agreement of all the other EU member states.

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programme. He turned down our invitation. How can we ensure our

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:06:31.:06:31.

young people have the skills to compete in a global work face. With

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us is Kevin Green and Kate Robinson which looks to promote the role of

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young people in business. Is there a genuine problem here? I think that

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there is. I think there are a lot of great unsaids. Comments I heard

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today from some businesses, do young British people want the jobs on

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offer? I think that business can take up the role of offering better

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training. Kevin and I were discussing that businesses can make

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job paths clearer. To make the jobs seem more desirable and I think

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businesses are not making clear as Tesco and Next did not make clear

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today what percentage of their workforce are from outside the

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country and actually give the lie to what was being said about them and

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clarity about the rhetoric... is a lot of opaqueness here, isn't

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there? And there doesn't need to be. You accept that? There is a question

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about the data and again in terms of Mr Bryant's speech today, there was

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lots of rhetoric and no data and no evidence and the employers that

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presented it were saying there was a small percentage without being

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specific. Do you think that British employers have a moral

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responsibility to employ British workers? I am not sure they do. They

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have a moral responsibility to do the right thing for their showeders

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and they operate in a community -- share Holders and they operate in a

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community. Those people that work in the local community are customers as

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well. Clearly, it is in their best interests to employ as many local

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people as possible. Moral question, no? Just a practical

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question. It is about being part of a

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community and operating within that community. No, I think that self

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interest now for business is about the moral responsibility and I think

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many of the big British businesses see that. Yes, they have got a duty

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to share Holders, but feel feel strongly they have a duty to their

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country and their community. They are seeing a moral responsibility.

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Kevin, there is a real sea change in business in the last couple of

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years. They have got to function, operate,

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within the communities they work in. If they can't find workers, they

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advertise the jobs locally, for young people, for people from the

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local community, they can't find people to do the jobs, clearly, they

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have a right to fin the labour elsewhere. Isn't that part of

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working across the EU we have open labour markets? Well, they are

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required. They have a legal obligation, don't they? A legal

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obligation to treat everybody the same.

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Is there a problem with British young people now? That's what I was

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alluding to earlier, there is some sweeping brush statements about that

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that say some young British workers don't want jobs as shelf stackers,

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yeah. There is a question over that. I don't want to make an assumption

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about that, but there are questions raised about that. Some cousins from

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the EU would take jobs that young Brits wouldn't take. So I think the

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onus falls back on business to explain the value of those jobs.

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Many of the big CEOs today were shelf stackers stackers in their

:09:56.:10:00.

youth and to ask business to take on to itself what are the issues why

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are young Brits not taking a the jobs? If it is the case, but as we

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were saying earlier, let's have the numbers. I would has at a guess, but

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I don't have as Kevin was saying, I don't have the exact data.

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Is there something wrong with the education system then? I think there

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is actually. We the aren't getting the message across, at the beginning

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of your career, it is good to get employment. It is good to get work

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experience on your CV. If you want to be a biochemist or a media

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presenter whatever you want to be, early in your career getting work

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experience is good news and the aspirations are too far in advance

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of the practicalities of what's available in the labour market.

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There is a big assumption being made and we are all making it and it is

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that unemployment is by choice, that's effectively what each of us

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is saying that young people are choosing not to do these jobs, is

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that the case? I think there is some evidence it to -- evidence to

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support that. There is recruiters up and down the UK, sometimes you have

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got areas of high unemployment, and you are spies advertising jobs and

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you can't get people in the local community, young people or older

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people to take the jobs. Partly because it is a benefits

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trap. OK, benefits. We are back to

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benefits. What's to be done then? Are you saying cut benefits Fa you

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have got to make work pay and the other thing is about aspirations. We

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have got to sell the point that Kate was making, we have got to sell

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employment, the opportunities to get the first foot on the ladder and see

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any employment as a stepping stone to another job. We have got to be

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positive and employers have an onus to be able to community wait with

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our communities. Foreigners coming in and being

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prepared to do the job for less money, and less security... Again

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anecdotal. There is lots of employment

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legislation. Most of the people who come in will be paid the same as a

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UK worker. National minimum wage applies.

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Well, you have heard the anecdotes. That means the employers are

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breaking the rules. I don't believe many employers are breaking the

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rules by bringing in workers who are paid less than UK workers.

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What do you want to do? My concern is youth unemployment and we have

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discussed that on your programme before. That's rising and that's a

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concern. The issue is the so-called NEATs and my experience since the

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World Economic Forum in January, every British CEO I speak to has

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taken up the challenge of getting the NEATs into employment. We are

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trying to make sure we get skills taught today for the jobs for

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tomorrow. We're trying to bring them in. We're trying to change the way

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we advertise lower paid jobs or the lower rungs, trying to package it

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differently and I really feel strongly that British business has

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taken up the challenge and we are making the difference.

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It is not working. A lot of it is about SMEs. Small employer who

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haven't taken the big message and if you think about the Government's

:13:14.:13:20.

role, the youth contract, no employers are aware of the youth

:13:20.:13:24.

contract which is the incentive to take on a young person. A great

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scheme. A great idea, but no employer has heard of it. The work

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programme which isn't really working on the grown. There are schemes, but

:13:31.:13:36.

they are not really matching employers expectations with what the

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skills of the young people. Clearly, there is a bit about Government

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playing a more active role and education is going in the wrong

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direction. The work experience has been taken out of the curriculum and

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careers advice is appalling in our schools. We have got to do a lot

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about change changing education. What's deadly? Careers advice in the

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schools is not where it needs to be. There is a lot more that we can do

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about that. My point about the shelf stacking job that becomes the CEO of

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the company. That may sound like a myth, it is not. It is a proven

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thing. There is a an issue that we can do more about in which what we

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view our generation we call IT training. There is a lot more we can

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do about that and do it faster. There are great initiatives like

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Tech City. There is a lot going on in some schools particularly London

:14:27.:14:31.

and it is needed throughout the country. There is a lot we can, but

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what your point about earlier, it is not working. Yes, it is working. It

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is a problem we are starting to address and those numbers are coming

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down. We are making a difference. OK, thank you very much indeed.

:14:46.:14:56.
:14:56.:15:00.

An African reanywaysons. Reanywaysons you may perhaps, recall

:15:00.:15:03.

the expression used by the then president of the United States, Bill

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Clinton, to describe the future he hoped for that continent. , It was

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15 years ago that he set off on the longest visit ever undertaken by a

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serving President. His interest in Africa outlasted his presidency and

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the Clinton Foundation has raised hundreds of millions of dollars for

:15:16.:15:19.

numerous projects across Africa. He's just been back there and Komla

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Dumor of BBC World News joined him to see if the Renaissance ever

:15:23.:15:32.

happened. S, has been over ten years since he left office, but his

:15:32.:15:38.

engagement in global affairs shows no sign of abating.

:15:38.:15:43.

After leavering the White House, he established the Clint Clinton Global

:15:43.:15:47.

Initiative. He is raising hundreds of millions of dollars from private

:15:47.:15:52.

donors and corporations tos fight HIV and AIDS and stamp out malaria

:15:52.:15:57.

and provide healthcare centres in communities across the world and

:15:57.:16:07.
:16:07.:16:08.

especially in Africa. But what role does fill philanthropy

:16:08.:16:18.
:16:18.:16:20.

play? At this event in Tanzania, President Clinton observed a

:16:20.:16:24.

demonstration on how a microfinance project helps local business women.

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It is backed by an international NGO in Barclays Bank. On paper, it works

:16:30.:16:34.

well. Women get small loans. They start a business. They feed their

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families. For all involved, it looks like a win, win situation and

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frankly, it is great PR. It is through initiatives like this

:16:49.:16:57.

that Bill Clinton think thinks that aid can be most effective. I hope

:16:57.:17:00.

other people will embrace it including governments or I can go

:17:00.:17:05.

out and do what I tried to do through the Global Initiative which

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is to get other partners and we have a huge, collective impact.

:17:13.:17:18.

But is this the best model or African development? The Continent

:17:18.:17:24.

has made progress in recent years, GDP growth in places like Tanzania

:17:24.:17:29.

and Ethiopia and Ghana has outstripped all of Europe's

:17:29.:17:38.

lethargic economies. An hour outside the capital, work is set to start

:17:38.:17:43.

that will transform these pristine beaches into one of the biggest

:17:43.:17:51.

ports Africa has ever seen. It is fundeds by $10 billion from China.

:17:51.:17:56.

We have beautiful shores. We lose the beauty of the place itself. The

:17:56.:18:03.

people who are living here, but in another side, if you take on the

:18:03.:18:08.

aspect of the economic, we need to have this park. We need it because

:18:08.:18:12.

it is going to boost the economy of the country.

:18:12.:18:20.

What is happening here is being replicated across the Continent.

:18:20.:18:25.

China has overtaken America as Africa's biggest trading partner.

:18:25.:18:29.

Clinton concedes in almost every area of engagement, America is

:18:29.:18:36.

playing catch-up. I don't believe that we spend enough money on basic

:18:36.:18:39.

infrastructure in our aid programme. I don't believe we spend enough

:18:39.:18:47.

money on basic economic growth initiatives. So I won't argue that

:18:47.:18:51.

the Chinese are going to get a lot of goodwill. I don't necessarily

:18:51.:18:56.

think it is a bad thing for America if African countries appreciate

:18:56.:19:01.

both. What we try to do to help their kids stay alive and what the

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Chinese do to give them better infrastructure and I think that

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we've got to try and create a future that we can share with the Chinese

:19:11.:19:15.

and not one where everything has a zero sum game.

:19:15.:19:19.

That sounds very optimistic. You know what real politics is and how

:19:19.:19:26.

likely is that? More likely than you think. Look at the places where no

:19:26.:19:31.

matter how grateful people were to China for their investment, if they

:19:31.:19:37.

think they came in and employed too many Chinese workers and too few

:19:37.:19:41.

local workers, if they think the working people weren't treated well,

:19:41.:19:49.

if they think that the infrastructure was to prop up a

:19:49.:19:54.

Government that didn't have support. In the end, countries have to make

:19:54.:19:58.

their own future, if we are careful not to ask for too much and careful

:19:58.:20:02.

not to aclike we are trying to shape too much.

:20:02.:20:07.

Tie it it to Human Rights? No, I don't think that. It is a good think

:20:07.:20:12.

we stand up from Human Rights. What have we learned from the experiments

:20:12.:20:16.

from the Arab Spring? It is minority rights and individual rights, Human

:20:16.:20:26.
:20:26.:20:28.

Rights, shared decision making and so I think that we need to help

:20:28.:20:31.

other countries and empower people around the world because it is the

:20:31.:20:36.

right thing to do. There are many who feel that China

:20:36.:20:41.

has advanced its interests in Africa because it is willing to ig near I

:20:41.:20:45.

shall issues of transparency and -- issues of transparency and Rightst

:20:45.:20:55.

Human Rights. Rwanda is our next destination and it is there the

:20:55.:21:05.
:21:05.:21:10.

Clint Clinton Record demands the BLeuptd was the most powerful man in

:21:10.:21:14.

the -- Bill Clinton was the most powerful man in the world. There was

:21:14.:21:19.

no intervention from America or anyone else.

:21:19.:21:29.
:21:29.:21:33.

Over a million people were slaughtered. Ple were slaughtered.

:21:33.:21:37.

Isn't that sense of responsibility at the time it happened, you were

:21:37.:21:41.

president that connects you or drives the position that you have?

:21:41.:21:48.

Maybe. Maybe. Guilt?Not guilty because whatever guilt I had went

:21:48.:21:52.

away when I took responsibility for not helping them. I remember in 2001

:21:52.:22:00.

when I went back to Rwanda for the second time, a reporter was riding

:22:00.:22:05.

in the streets with a taxi driver and he said, " Aren't you made that

:22:05.:22:10.

Bill Clinton is here working on aid and all this stuff?" He said, " No,

:22:10.:22:20.
:22:20.:22:22.

I'm not." The reporter said, " Why?" He said" he didn't make us kill each

:22:22.:22:28.

other. And then he said secondly, at least he said I'm sorry, nobody else

:22:28.:22:34.

apologised. To, Rwanda is one big biggest

:22:34.:22:37.

recipients of western aid and support from the Clinton Foundation,

:22:38.:22:46.

but progress has been blighted because of allegations of Human

:22:46.:22:50.

Rights abuses here and abroad. The president's Government has been

:22:50.:22:56.

accused of funding rebel movements in the neighbouring Democratic

:22:56.:23:02.

Republic of Congo. Rwanda denied any involvement across the border. It

:23:02.:23:09.

has its defenders, among them former British Prime Minister, Tony Blair.

:23:09.:23:13.

And Bill Clinton. I don't support the repression of journalists. I

:23:13.:23:23.
:23:23.:23:23.

don't think Human Rights should be violated in the Congo. But I suppose

:23:23.:23:30.

I do make more allowances for a Government that has produced as much

:23:30.:23:34.

progress as that one has and has been well organised and otherwise

:23:34.:23:41.

had the rule of law so it is the way it is. There are very few situations

:23:42.:23:49.

are perfect. As the foundation expands its

:23:49.:23:52.

footprint and influence in Africa, another Clinton is taking a up a

:23:52.:24:00.

bigger role. Did I do OK?Chelsea Clinton sits on the foundation's

:24:00.:24:06.

board and at this project demonstrates how simple

:24:07.:24:10.

interventions can provide clean water in poor communities. I think

:24:10.:24:15.

the Met trick of success in your life really matters and as much as I

:24:15.:24:20.

loved solving a problem and when I worked on Wall Street, seeing I was

:24:21.:24:26.

right, an investment idea, I didn't ultimately want to denominate my

:24:26.:24:33.

life in dollars, I wanted to denominate my life in the number of

:24:33.:24:37.

people I could help and empower to lead their own lives.

:24:37.:24:44.

You come from a very influential political din nast a, some would say

:24:44.:24:49.

-- dynasty. Why make that choice? Right now, I very much feel called

:24:49.:24:54.

to participate in the nonprofit sector. I also am grateful to live

:24:54.:24:59.

in a city and a state and a country where I really believe in my elected

:24:59.:25:04.

representatives. If one of those changed, and I thought I could make

:25:04.:25:08.

more of a difference in a public sector capacity or if I no longer

:25:09.:25:14.

lived in a city, in a State, in a country where I really believed in

:25:14.:25:19.

both kind of the ethics and the competencies of my political leaders

:25:19.:25:23.

then I would have to ask myself honestly whether or not that would

:25:23.:25:28.

be a better path. But the politics has already

:25:28.:25:36.

changed. Whereas the Clintons' are out to win heart and minds across

:25:36.:25:40.

Africa, the United States has already opened up a new and more

:25:40.:25:44.

dangerous phase of engagements with the Continent. Africa is one of the

:25:44.:25:49.

major fronts in the battle against international terrorism.

:25:49.:25:53.

We are in a very unstable period in the world. Particularly on the

:25:53.:25:56.

Continent. Many of the experts I've spoken to, link this directly to

:25:56.:25:59.

what happened in Libya. And the overthrow of Gaddafi. I heard

:25:59.:26:04.

experts say that Libya has now become the primary source of funding

:26:04.:26:10.

and for arms. For Al-Qaeda. Was it a mis mistake to overthrow Gaddafi in

:26:10.:26:17.

that manner? He was overthrown in no small measure, but a popular

:26:17.:26:21.

uprising that other countries supported. And gave them guns, gave

:26:21.:26:27.

rebels arms? Yes, but it wasn't a mistake to help them overthrow him

:26:27.:26:31.

without knowing what the outcome would be, I don't think so. Let's

:26:31.:26:36.

not forget, Gaddafi was no saint. He did one or two things that he had no

:26:36.:26:42.

business doing too. Isn't the instability we are seeing

:26:42.:26:48.

now, the arms are flowing from Libya into those places? Yes, but there

:26:48.:26:52.

were a lot of guns there that could be used and not just in Libya and

:26:52.:27:00.

other places, I think here is the flip side, you asked me about Human

:27:00.:27:07.

Rights and there is no question that the president can win a popular

:27:07.:27:13.

election with an overwhelming vote and then we say we should have let a

:27:13.:27:17.

proven Human Rights abuser and a man who blew up an aeroplane with a lot

:27:17.:27:22.

of innocent kids on it, stay as the ruler of Libya because we can't

:27:22.:27:26.

stand the chaos now that he has gone. It is a messy world we live

:27:26.:27:32.

in. There are no guarantees. Syria, what should America do?

:27:32.:27:39.

I think we are getting around to doing which is provide arms and

:27:39.:27:44.

other support, do it through the channel that we believe is by far

:27:44.:27:53.

the most truth worth worthy and hope for the best.

:27:53.:27:57.

The Syrians have not asked us to put boots on the ground. It may or may

:27:57.:28:04.

not work and there is no good choice there, but if Iran and Russia have

:28:04.:28:10.

made a choice then they have unleashed the Hezbollah forces to

:28:10.:28:15.

fight and that seems to have what turned the tide here. It is one of

:28:15.:28:20.

those things where it is better to get caught trying.

:28:20.:28:24.

Doing something is better than doing nothing? Not always, but in this

:28:24.:28:31.

case, when this is said and done, if we can ask ourselves how will we

:28:31.:28:36.

feel if Assad is replaced? How will we feel if he revales? In both

:28:36.:28:39.

cases, given the facts on the ground and what has occurred and the United

:28:40.:28:43.

States will feel better if we tried to create a constructive

:28:43.:28:50.

alternative. In Africa, there are challenges that

:28:50.:28:56.

remain which he feels need to be confronted. We had to feed seven

:28:56.:29:00.

billion people in the world today. We are going to have to feed nine

:29:00.:29:05.

billion by 2050. We have the global warming and climate change problems

:29:05.:29:09.

and we have an enormous number of people who live in countries that

:29:09.:29:14.

have lots of money, but can't feed themselves and their instinct is to

:29:14.:29:20.

say, " We should mechanise agriculture and throw small farmers

:29:20.:29:24.

off the land." If the population of the world continues to go up, people

:29:24.:29:28.

will take more things out of the ground. The problem is there has

:29:29.:29:34.

been too much corruption and who got to it what was done with the

:29:34.:29:39.

revenues? And I'm only too happy to clean that up. I will go and give a

:29:40.:29:48.

speech to this to Nigeria every year, but they are still going to

:29:48.:29:51.

take the stuff out of the ground. We need to set-up systems that work

:29:51.:29:55.

better to do that. I would happily spend a lot of the rest of my life

:29:55.:30:01.

doing that because it is a huge threat if it is done wrong and a

:30:01.:30:05.

huge opportunity if it is done right, but this farming thing I can

:30:05.:30:10.

have a real impact on. Increasing their incomes two and three and four

:30:10.:30:15.

and five-fold by doubling their yields more and cutting the cost of

:30:15.:30:20.

production. We can change the world here. You are very much in your post

:30:20.:30:24.

presidency, but inevitably people are still asking whether there is

:30:24.:30:28.

still a bit of Washington still left in you or whether there is still one

:30:28.:30:31.

more race to run and you know I have to ask that question. If I knew the

:30:31.:30:39.

answer, I wouldn't tell you. You don't know? I don't know. Look,

:30:39.:30:43.

I'm for whatever my life wants to do. I didn't know whether I had one

:30:43.:30:48.

more race left in my last time. I thought the president was getting a

:30:48.:30:53.

raw deal and I was able to help him. This is what my job is. I love this

:30:53.:31:00.

job. I love doing this foundation work. President Clinton, I am going

:31:00.:31:10.
:31:10.:31:22.

to see you again. leave for Arsenal. He apparently

:31:22.:31:26.

can't wait to get away and Arsenal are said to have offered �40 million

:31:26.:31:30.

to prise him out of Liverpool's grasp and then Suarez is a man with

:31:30.:31:33.

a reputation for biting more than the hand that feeds him. But his

:31:33.:31:37.

behaviour does raise the question of what constitutes loyalty nowadays.

:31:38.:31:41.

Time was that when you mentioned a Bobby Charlton or a Stanley

:31:41.:31:43.

Matthews, a particular club came instantly to mind. Does loyalty

:31:44.:31:53.
:31:54.:31:55.

matter any more? We sent Jake Morris to Liverpool to gauge opinion there.

:31:55.:31:58.

Back in the 70 it was all about the football. Now, it is about the

:31:58.:32:03.

money. Probably Luis Suarez is business to

:32:03.:32:07.

earn more money or go to a better team is the way he says it.

:32:07.:32:12.

Football is about money these days. I guess, you have got to get used to

:32:12.:32:18.

Ask football fans on Merseyside about loyalty and you will hear

:32:18.:32:23.

about money. Liverpool aren't alone among Britain's big clubs in trying

:32:23.:32:28.

to keep hold of a star player determined to depart irrespective of

:32:28.:32:32.

their contract having years to run, but no saga has been as acrimonious

:32:32.:32:38.

as that of Luis Suarez. It makes me feel disgraced. It is like you want

:32:38.:32:43.

to apologise to the fans and the club and the players. It makes me

:32:43.:32:49.

disgraced. Look what Liverpool has done. It is money, isn't it? I don't

:32:49.:32:53.

want thim to go because he is one of the best strikers in Europe, but if

:32:53.:32:58.

he wants to go and he doesn't want to play for the club. I would sooner

:32:58.:33:02.

have somebody who is half as talented as him who wants to play

:33:02.:33:05.

for the club and want to win things with the club than somebody who

:33:05.:33:08.

doesn't want to. Luis Suarez is accused of disloyalty

:33:08.:33:12.

to a club and to the supporters who stood by their player when

:33:12.:33:16.

football's authorities found him guilty of racist abuse and then of

:33:16.:33:20.

biting an opponent, but is such apparent disloyalty really that new?

:33:20.:33:27.

No, it isn't. Footballers wanted to leave football clubs for years. What

:33:27.:33:30.

tends to happen is footballers gravitate towards their level. The

:33:30.:33:33.

best footballers have always historically ended up at the best

:33:33.:33:36.

clubs. Should we be surprised? Has the game

:33:36.:33:41.

offered its players any loyalty in return?

:33:41.:33:45.

Harry brings him down and this time it is a penalty.

:33:45.:33:51.

Ian St John was one of the corner stones of what Bill Shankly did at

:33:51.:34:00.

Liverpool. He began to use St John less and less. He sold him. He moved

:34:00.:34:10.
:34:10.:34:13.

him on to the first team and stopped speaking to him as regularly and

:34:13.:34:20.

this will always happen to footballers. With Luis Suarez

:34:20.:34:25.

receiving standing ovations at training sessions from Liverpool

:34:25.:34:31.

fans desperate to keep their star performerser can loyalty be evenly

:34:31.:34:35.

distributed? We asked followers from Everton for their observations?

:34:35.:34:39.

Amusing. You find it amusing? Very.Why?

:34:39.:34:47.

fact they love him so much and the way he is treating them. He spat his

:34:47.:34:54.

dummy out. My feeling is, he need - the club still want me. The fans are

:34:54.:35:01.

still supporting me. He should be saying to himself reality check. I'm

:35:01.:35:10.

staying where I am for the time being.

:35:10.:35:14.

Auto Because they know they have got you over a barrel. Because they know

:35:14.:35:19.

you are coming every Saturday, because they know they have you in

:35:19.:35:26.

that position, they are able to put prices up. One of the reasons why

:35:26.:35:30.

people grow resentful of footballers. I'm paying �50 a week

:35:30.:35:35.

to watch you and you can't do X. Can this loyalty take the supporters

:35:35.:35:38.

to breaking point? Could anything make a fan fall out of love with

:35:38.:35:44.

football? No. Not at all. Maybe winning, but that depends.

:35:44.:35:53.

With us now is the football writer and biographer of Sir Alex Ferguson,

:35:53.:35:56.

Patrick Barclay, Sky Andrew, a football agent who has represented a

:35:56.:35:59.

number of top international players, and former England player who was

:35:59.:36:03.

himself an idol of the Kop in his day, John Barnes. Is loyalty dead?

:36:03.:36:05.

Well, it depends on your interpretation of loyalty. If a

:36:05.:36:13.

player while he is at that club gives 100%. But we have seen it

:36:13.:36:19.

before and at Liverpool and Fernando Torres, if they believe a right move

:36:19.:36:24.

comes along, they will move. What do you think? I do, I have moved with

:36:24.:36:31.

the times on this. I agree with John's concept of portable loyalty.

:36:31.:36:35.

I think it is the best we can expect these days and Luis Suarez certainly

:36:35.:36:40.

while he has played, while he whats been every minute he is has been on

:36:40.:36:45.

the pitch for Liverpool and of course, he is often absent from the

:36:45.:36:53.

pitch due to cannibalism and various activities, but no, I mean, for

:36:53.:37:02.

every minute he plays, he has given value for money. I kind of, I do

:37:02.:37:09.

kind of believe that football in a sense isn't worth the kind of

:37:09.:37:16.

loyalty that we are talking about. That we... Do you buy this idea that

:37:16.:37:20.

players were more loyal to a particular club than they are now?

:37:20.:37:27.

think there are more opportunities for players. I think you can only

:37:27.:37:32.

define loyalty within the terms of a contract. A club may become more

:37:32.:37:37.

successful than a player. We can't stop looking outside the terms of

:37:37.:37:40.

the contracts because every player will stay at every club. A club

:37:40.:37:44.

would stand by the player and vice versa.

:37:44.:37:52.

Why are you saying, " I didn't understand it." The problem here I

:37:52.:37:59.

think is that football is asking for this. I am not talking about fans. I

:37:59.:38:03.

think there is an obligation on players. There is an obligation, I

:38:03.:38:08.

don't mind badge kissing as we call it, you know, this sort of rather

:38:08.:38:13.

fake loyalty that footballers give you in return for a big salary.

:38:13.:38:17.

Beating your breast and you know, when you score a goal and so on. I

:38:17.:38:21.

think that is OK, but the problem with football is the way it is

:38:21.:38:26.

administered. At the moment there are four candidates for Footballer

:38:26.:38:32.

of the Year, Robin van percent see, Wayne Rooney and low Luis Suarez and

:38:32.:38:37.

Gareth Bale. Three of those four, wets don't know where they are going

:38:37.:38:42.

to go. The fans have to take responsibility. What has happened?

:38:42.:38:47.

How have the fans got to take responsibility? They have empowered

:38:47.:38:56.

certain players over other players. We have put players on pedestals.

:38:56.:39:00.

Once players start to believe they are better than their team-mates, we

:39:00.:39:05.

have made them feel they are more important than their club. Some are

:39:05.:39:13.

better. They are not better than their team-mates or their clubs. In

:39:13.:39:18.

terms of what they feel, they cannot win a game by themselves. So...

:39:18.:39:23.

What's going on with players, they believe that they can never win. If

:39:23.:39:27.

they honour their contract and leave, they get stick. If they leave

:39:27.:39:31.

whilst under contract they get stick. There is a belief amongst

:39:31.:39:35.

players unless you become a bad player or don't perform, you are

:39:35.:39:38.

going to get stick. I am sorry to be blunt about this,

:39:38.:39:42.

but aren't you part of the problem? Well, some agents are part of the

:39:42.:39:47.

problem, not me! The bottom line is this, there has to be a clear

:39:47.:39:52.

message given to players. If you honour contract and you have got

:39:52.:39:55.

value and you leave, no problem. That message has to go to the

:39:55.:40:02.

players. If the players believe no matter what they do, they will get

:40:02.:40:06.

criticised. The problem isn't Sky and descent

:40:06.:40:10.

agents who do a descent job for their players. The football problem

:40:10.:40:14.

is football gives this key part of the season, the first month of it,

:40:14.:40:19.

to the agent profession and says, " You run football." It is all of

:40:19.:40:24.

this, all of this business should have been done in the summer. We

:40:24.:40:28.

should be, instead of talking about this, we should be talking about who

:40:28.:40:33.

is going to win the Championship. This is what we talk about. The

:40:33.:40:40.

mentality of the players. Why does Luis Suarez feel that he is more

:40:40.:40:43.

important than his team-mates by saying I want to go to a better

:40:43.:40:50.

club? Regardless of whether he scored 30 goals or not. How can we

:40:50.:40:57.

blame a young man with a limited career expectancy? I see don't blame

:40:57.:41:02.

him. I am talking about the way he is going about it. When we played, I

:41:02.:41:06.

hate going back to my day, however, if the team didn't win or do well,

:41:06.:41:12.

the big players would get the blame. They would say John Barnes didn't

:41:12.:41:16.

play well and I would take responsibility. If a big player,

:41:16.:41:21.

Luis Suarez, Torres, Rooney, when the team doesn't win, they don't

:41:21.:41:27.

blame them. They win their team myths. Do I recall, weren't you at

:41:27.:41:35.

Watford before you were at Liverpool? Yes. Brian Robson never

:41:35.:41:40.

left Manchester United to go to Liverpool. It was accepted you were

:41:40.:41:45.

going there to improve your game and you went with the good wishes of the

:41:45.:41:49.

people. What you didn't do is what Luis Suarez is doing and I am not

:41:49.:41:54.

saying he is in the wrong here, but what you didn't do is offer a

:41:54.:41:59.

different cock-and-bull story every day! You didn't get big players

:41:59.:42:06.

leaving to go to other clubs. You were honest about it. Can I get a

:42:06.:42:11.

word in? The fans thought OK, fine, he wants to go and better himself.

:42:11.:42:16.

Players have been advised by people sometimes with ulterior motives and

:42:16.:42:20.

players can only react to the advice they are getting behind the scenes.

:42:20.:42:22.

Often the fans don't know what's going on behind the scenes, all they

:42:22.:42:29.

see is the headlines. Is this specific to English or

:42:29.:42:34.

British football this? Is this a problem that exists across Europe?

:42:34.:42:40.

What it is is that we have, we have the issue let's call it of a lot of

:42:40.:42:44.

top foreign players coming to the Premier League and they don't have

:42:44.:42:47.

the same affinity with football teams as the British players do. If

:42:47.:42:52.

they come to this country and do well... Rooney and Bale understand

:42:52.:42:56.

this surely. That's a small percentage of

:42:56.:43:02.

players. Players will come here and think, " I can get a better club."

:43:02.:43:07.

You can't can't that player have at same affinity.

:43:07.:43:11.

You expect Rooney and Bale? Those situations are different to Luis

:43:11.:43:16.

Suarez. In Europe, Italy and Germany, players have always left

:43:16.:43:21.

top clubs to go to other clubs and the fans accept that. In England, we

:43:21.:43:26.

like to feel we own our players. In Europe, it is accepted for big

:43:27.:43:29.

players to go to other clubs. So therefore, what has to happen in

:43:29.:43:33.

this country is that players have to come up with excuses why they want

:43:33.:43:38.

to leave, restaurants, the wife can't settle. It is mainly to do

:43:38.:43:43.

with money! You will You will accept it if a player doesn't sign a new

:43:43.:43:49.

contract. What the fans don't like is players sign new contracts and

:43:49.:43:52.

accept huge rises and say they want to leave. That adds Morag knee to

:43:52.:43:56.

the fans and they are like, " You have signed a new contract you are

:43:56.:44:01.

going to stay and." A year later they want to leave.

:44:01.:44:06.

You imagine that a contract that ran for three or four years made the

:44:06.:44:11.

club powerful, it makes the player powerful? The fact is if a

:44:11.:44:15.

footballer is under contract, the club don't have to sell him if he

:44:15.:44:20.

lass three or four years left. If a player has two years left, maybe he

:44:20.:44:26.

has power, but not when he has three or four years left. Once the

:44:26.:44:33.

transfer window window ends, he has to pull on his shirt.

:44:33.:44:39.

The money supply is rocketing obscenely because of the medium in

:44:39.:44:42.

which we are talking now. I wish somebody would find something else

:44:42.:44:49.

to put on the TV. Ridiculous amounts of money are poured into football.

:44:49.:44:54.

That produces, all of this money pouring in and there still aren't

:44:54.:44:58.

enough good players to go around and therefore, the money is going up all

:44:58.:45:05.

the time and... One constructive idea from you John Barnes? One year

:45:05.:45:09.

contracts. Quickly, quickly? Fans have to stop

:45:09.:45:12.

empowering players. Have one year contracts.

:45:12.:45:19.

Fans have to give a clear message to players, honour your contracts.

:45:19.:45:25.

The Financial Times has news that The Financial Times has news that

:45:25.:45:28.

BlackBerry is being put up for sale. More and more people are trusting

:45:28.:45:32.

the Tories on management of the economy. The Times has pictures of

:45:32.:45:36.

the England cricket team and the same or a similar picture on the

:45:36.:45:40.

front of the Daily Telegraph. And there is a nice picture of that nice

:45:40.:45:45.

Mr Mugabe on the front of the Independent.

:45:45.:45:51.

That's all for tonight. You may have seen that Norwegian Prime Minister

:45:51.:45:54.

has taken to incognito taxi-driving, to try to find out what his people

:45:54.:45:59.

are really thinking. He's not the only politician accused of getting

:45:59.:46:04.

out of touch, of course. Maybe he's out of touch, of course. Maybe he's

:46:04.:46:14.
:46:14.:46:37.

The weather is staying changeable. We have got thicker cloud across

:46:37.:46:39.

Northern Ireland, Wales and the Midlands throughout the day on

:46:39.:46:43.

Tuesday. To the north of that, a mixture of sunshine and showers and

:46:43.:46:46.

clouding over come the afternoon to the south. So for Northern Ireland,

:46:46.:46:49.

perhaps better prospects for the afternoon in terms of seeing

:46:49.:46:53.

sunshine. Although, there is sunshine for Scotland, we have to

:46:53.:46:57.

cater for fairly light and well scattered showers with highs through

:46:57.:47:01.

the Central Lowlands of 17 Celsius. Across Northern England, cloudy

:47:01.:47:06.

throughout the afternoon. There will be some patchy and light rain moving

:47:06.:47:10.

through the East Midlands and into East Anglia. Not much of the rain

:47:10.:47:13.

reaching the South East corner, but after a sunny start, it will

:47:13.:47:16.

abcloudier afternoon. Still breaks in the cloud for south-west England.

:47:16.:47:21.

So sunshine to finish off the day on Tuesday with highs of 19 Celsius.

:47:21.:47:24.

For Wales as well, things brightening up, but still perhaps a

:47:24.:47:28.

few showers dotted around here and there. Looking at some cities

:47:28.:47:33.

throughout the day on Tuesday and Wednesday. After sunshine for

:47:33.:47:36.

Inverness and Edinburgh, Wednesday at the moment does look like it

:47:36.:47:41.

could be cloudier and we are keeping some cloudy skies on Tuesday and

:47:41.:47:45.

Wednesday further south. Along with the cloud across western areas on

:47:46.:47:48.

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