27/11/2013 Newsnight


27/11/2013

With Jeremy Paxman. Government plans to toughen welfare rules for EU migrants, the man killed by mob justice, more on the Falkirk row and what has gone wrong with the Green Deal?


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Transcript


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The Prime Minister isn't panicking, oh, no. A matter of a few weeks

:00:00.:00:09.

before the expected arrival of an unknown number of eastern European

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migrants to work, he's introducing restrictions on the welfare benefits

:00:13.:00:17.

they'll be entitled to. Is David Cameron scapegoating foreigners for

:00:18.:00:24.

political gain? The Bulgarian ambassador thinks some politicians

:00:25.:00:28.

and the media are doing so. We pay a fortune for energy and then

:00:29.:00:34.

let it leak away. Why has the Government plan for a Green Deal

:00:35.:00:39.

fallen on its face. You can install the energy efficiency measures with

:00:40.:00:42.

the Green Deal loans and the result is that your bill doesn't go down at

:00:43.:00:46.

all. The reason being that you're making all these loan repayments.

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Kicked to death and set o on fire after false rumours he was a

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paedophile. We talk to the sister of the man who died at the hands of mob

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justice. We talk to the boss of Coca-Cola

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about whether his drink shouldn't be taxed and taxed again to save the

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nation from a health crisis. All the political parties

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underestimated how strongly public feeling was running on immigration

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from Eastern Europe. With the imminent lifting of restrictions on

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people wanting to come here from Romain why and Bulgaria -- Romania

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and Bulgaria to work it was perhaps inevitable that the Government would

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announce ape new policy. -- a new policy. When a European Commissioner

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starts using words like "nasty" to describe attitudes here, he may reap

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a political diffident. Jim Read reports.

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Market day in Northampton, and among the veggies and fresh fruit

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different voices from different parts of Europe. My mother just come

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to visit me. Latvians shopping for Christmas cards, Bulgarians serving

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burgers. Immigration from Central Europe has really changed. Market

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towns like this. One in six people in Northampton were born outside the

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UK, a figure that's doubled in the last ten years. Polish is now the

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second most spoken language in the whole county. Market traders here

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like the extra business. Many have real reservations about immigration.

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Definitely put pressure on services. Especially the education sector and

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hospitals. But, I think, in essence, they do bring something to the

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community. It's brought a lot more people to the town. At the same

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time, it's also brought a lot more crime to the town. One good thing

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about them all is that they do tend to use the market, so it's keeping

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the market going. They tend to like shopping on markets. In 2004, Tony

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Blair had the option to impose transitional controls, locking

:03:04.:03:07.

eastern Europeans out of the labour market for seven years. He decided

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against it, that, the Prime Minister said today, was a monumental

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mistake, now our labour market rules must be tightened. To anyone, not

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just Romanians or Bulgarians, to anyone in other European Union

:03:21.:03:23.

countries, thinking of coming to Britain because it's easier to claim

:03:24.:03:29.

benefits, Housing Benefit or unemployment benefit, I think it's

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important to send a clear message out that is not the case. The new

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plans: EU migrants will get no out of work benefits for the first three

:03:37.:03:39.

months they're in the country. Payments will be stopped after six

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months, unless the claimant has a genuine chance of getting a job.

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Migrants will not be able to claim Housing Benefit immediately and

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those caught begging or sleeping rough will be deported with no

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return within a year. On wellingborough Road, a short walk

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from the town centre, Polish deaessens and Romanian supermarkets.

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David Cameron's plan to tighten welfare rules was met with derision

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by the European Commission today. The UK, it says, risks looking like

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the nasty man of Europe. Free movement is not negotiable as long

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as you are member of the union, as long as you are member of the single

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market. I cannot understand on one hand, I don't understand the

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political logic, you see, because Great Britain has always and

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continues to be a big promoter of enlargement. In an office niche is

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Paul -- nearby, is Paul. He came from Latvia in 2001 to start his own

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employment agency, bringing workers from Eastern Europe. I talk to many

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people, you know and what people say is that this system, benefit system

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is very generous. I would say even over generous, you know. I came to

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instances when people come from abroad and they don't really work.

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The thing is, it's not something what they made up. They just

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following example. There are plenty of examples around here. Examples of

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what, British workers? Yeah, claiming benefits, you know, I think

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the cause is there, not in immigrants coming and claiming

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benefits. We shouldn't give them these examples. At the local

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Romanian supermarket, these cash ears have a visa to work in this

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country, in 35 days, labour market rules will be relaxed, opening up

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the jobs market to all 28 million citizens of both Romania and

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Bulgaria. A series of polls over the last week, have shown significant

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levels of public opposition to that change. But the manager here is

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angry at any suggestion more migrants will flock over just to

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claim benefits. I can see on the street or in my shop plenty of

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English people which are not working. So I can't pretend that all

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Romanian are good or all Romanian are the best or something like that.

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No. There are people which don't want to work, they're coming here to

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steal or claim benefit. But they already came. The debate about the

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impact of Romanian and Bulgarian migration is still raging. The Prime

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Minister today wouldn't name even a rough number for the amount of

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workers he expects to arrive in January. Estimates range from 16,000

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right up to 50,000 in the first year. Today's welfare restrictions

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really amount to tinkering with the rules. In the longer term, David

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Cameron wants more control over immigration policy, maybe even the

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ability to block migration, if numbers break a set level. That,

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though, will need agreement at EU level and that will be far more

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difficult. Well Konstantin Dimitrov is the

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Bulgarian ambassador to the UK. Nigel Mills is the Conservative MP

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and he moved an amendment to the Government bill requiring controls

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from the immigration from the two countries remain in force until

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2018. Has David Cameron gone far enough today? The measures he

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announced were a welcome step in the right direction. There's been a lot

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of concern that our welfare system is easier to access for recently

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arrived migrants than other European ones. I don't think he's tackled all

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the issues. Not gone far enough? No, not yet. Think the controls will put

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anybody Ofcoming from Bulgaria -- anybody coming from Bulgaria to

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Britain? Not necessarily, except for the announcement that the access to

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the social welfare system will be additionally tightened, something

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which Bulgarians are pretty well aware because of our information

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campaign. Will have pretty little effect? That won't be of factor

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because what I would like to explain is the following thing: Right now,

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most of the work permits are for which people from Bulgaria apply are

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approved. Those who have come here to work have usually done so, even

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though under this restriction regime, so the first of January will

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not bring about a change in terms of the accessibility of the labour

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market, which has nothing to do with the issue of the access to the

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welfare system. Do you have any idea of what numbers we're talking about?

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The Government won't give us a number. There are some... Do you

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number of eastern European migrants what you're talking about? There are

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independent estimates which say somewhere up to 70,000 a year for

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the first five years, so an average maybe 50,000 a year for five years,

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a quarter of a million. I think when there were no restrictions on Poland

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and the other A 8 far more people came than were expected. Do you have

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any idea what you're talking about? Well, we only say the following

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thing, because we've been pressed all the time about predictions. We

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cannot predict. We're not crystal ball gazers, however this year

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between 8,000 to 10,000 Bulgarians came to work legally in the UK. We

:09:21.:09:25.

don't see any prerequisite for a rise in this annual trend next year.

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That's what I can say. So, it's all clear as mud, isn't it? You're

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talking 250,000 over five years. You're talking a figure of perhaps o

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10,000 or something. For next year. This is just trying to extrapolate

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the experience of this year until next because as I say, we cannot see

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prerequisites for qualitative change for enlargement of the

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attractiveness of your country. Those numbers aren't that far

:09:58.:10:01.

aparts, if you add in the Romanians to the Bulgarians, I suspect there

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must be something like 30,000 on those numbers, within the range

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we're talking about. Do you worry, when you hear a European

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Commissioner talking about Britain as being seen as the nasty country?

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I think we'd rather be seen as the tough country than nasty. I'm not

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sure, I don't think we want to be the soft touch where people can come

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- You'd rather be nasty than a soft touch? Yes. I wouldn't choose nasty

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as the the description. Choose? Tough, but fair. There's no reason

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why we should be more attractive than France or Germany to people.

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Ambassador, would you like to explain to our viewers why it is

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they should pay their taxes in order that your citizens should be

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entitled to benefits here? Well, I'm afraid that this is not the right

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way to present the situation. That's the question I'm asking, though.

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That is right, may I just respond to you in a slightly different manner.

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Most of those who come here are young people and they are single,

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not married between 15 and 35. They come to work. A low percentage of

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their income comes from your social benefit system. They earn their

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daily bread by working. They may all have noble intentions, but

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misfortune happens to all of us. That is true. Can you explain to our

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viewers why they should pay their taxles in order that your citizens

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can be helped if they get into need here? Well, they pay their taxes,

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but also, our citizens working in the UK are paying their taxes in

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your country as well. So they're not free riders in their majority. There

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is something in that argument, isn't there? That is what statistics says.

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You should look at it... Let's stay off statistics shall we? The first

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18 top countries, whose citizens have access to your Social Security

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system? That is something we should respect, I would suggest. This isn't

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going to happen any way, is it? These restrictions? The EU won't

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allow it to happen. That would be an interesting challenge, if Parliament

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said that deal we signed nearly ten years ago - You can't be a member of

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a club and then decide you want to obey some rules and some you don't.

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We can find lots of examples from nearly every country in the union

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that has done exactly that. You really think that the EU will allow

:12:34.:12:38.

this to happen? Well, I suspect the EU won't be very keen on this

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happening. But the point is if we in Parliament say this is not in our

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national interest now to lift these restrictions at this time, we need

:12:46.:12:48.

them in place, while we're recovering from the terrible

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recession we had, that should be a powerful message, if that's what we

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think is our national interest. I think some of the measures the Prime

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Minister announced today, the Home Secretary admitted earlier may well

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not be with favour in the European Commission either. I don't think

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it's entirely unusual for nations - You've been a European politician.

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For a short period of time, yes. Outside the statute of limb

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stations. Yes. Do you think it's feasible that these restrictions

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could be introduced unilaterally in one member state? We have to study

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very carefully the political intentions in Mr Cameron's article.

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They are yet to be transformed into concrete legislative or

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administrative acts. Then we will say what is permissible under if the

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European Union legislation and what is not. The commission will also

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have its say. That is the right answer, as we speak, hours after Mr

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Cameron's article came to our attention. Thank you both very much.

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Coming up: # Living on a prayer #

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Now if you were offered the chance to make substantial savings on your

:14:09.:14:12.

Energy Bill, without having to spend any money up front, you'd do it,

:14:13.:14:15.

wouldn't you? Actually, you probably wouldn't. Ing that the irresistible

:14:16.:14:20.

conclusion from the underwhelming number of people who signed up to

:14:21.:14:23.

the Government's Green Deal. No less a figure than Nick Clegg described

:14:24.:14:28.

it as one of the most important achievements of any Government, but

:14:29.:14:31.

barely a thousand households have signed up for it and where the

:14:32.:14:34.

scheme was meant to save households money, it's ended up saving them

:14:35.:14:40.

nothing much at all. As Andy Verity found out, all the political

:14:41.:14:43.

uncertainty about green levies threatens thousands of jobs.

:14:44.:14:51.

It was billed as the largest and most ambitious home-improvement

:14:52.:14:59.

programme since the Second World War, not to mention the most

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comprehensive energy saving plan in the world. Deja vu anyone?

:15:04.:15:06.

Households are facing high fuel bills. We have to do something. What

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we are doing is highlighting the Green Deal for the most ambitious

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projects of any Government has launched in a long time. The Green

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Deal went live 11 months ago. It's starting to look like a party no-one

:15:22.:15:26.

wants to go to. Amid the fury about bills, households are still blowing

:15:27.:15:31.

?140 a year heating the open air in old, badly insulated houses. What if

:15:32.:15:36.

they could borrow money to get insulation and make the repayments

:15:37.:15:40.

out of savings on their bill? Enter the Green Deal, what's that? It's a

:15:41.:15:44.

revolutionary programme according to the Government which lets you do

:15:45.:15:48.

your loft, wall inhalation, new boiler and pay nothing for it up

:15:49.:15:53.

front. The rule is that the energy efficiency measures will pay for

:15:54.:15:58.

themselves over 25 years in savings on your bills, so you won't have to

:15:59.:16:02.

pay anything. It sounds like the ideal deal, doesn't it, in these

:16:03.:16:06.

times of high Energy Bills? So why have so few people taken it up?

:16:07.:16:11.

Ahead of its launch in January, the Government projected that 130,000

:16:12.:16:14.

Green Deals would get signed this year. The minister responsible Greg

:16:15.:16:20.

Barker said in March that he wouldn't be sleeping if less than

:16:21.:16:24.

10,000 signed up. 11 months in just over 1,000 people are signed up to

:16:25.:16:28.

the scheme, around 1% of what was expected. Of those, just 219 have

:16:29.:16:35.

had the work done. I think, to date, this has been a tragic and

:16:36.:16:40.

embarrassing failure. Consumers are crying out for help with Energy

:16:41.:16:44.

Bills. Here is the policy to deliver it, yet nobody is taking it up. What

:16:45.:16:49.

intrigues me about the Green Deal is that although barely a thousand

:16:50.:16:53.

people have signed up to it, more tan 100,000 have had their

:16:54.:16:56.

assessments done. Why aren't they following through? There seems to be

:16:57.:17:00.

a blockage in the Green Deal pipeline.

:17:01.:17:08.

What is it? Mike Walker, himself an energy assessor, thought his cold

:17:09.:17:14.

Victorian walls could use a bit of warming up. He invited a Green Deal

:17:15.:17:19.

assessor to his home and wasn't exactly impressed. Even with the

:17:20.:17:24.

basic bit of knowledge, you can tell that this is solid brick. It does

:17:25.:17:29.

not contain a cavity. How? Because you have a long section of brick and

:17:30.:17:33.

a short section of brick, it means that the bricks are laid like that,

:17:34.:17:39.

so it's solid all the way through. There is no cavity. Following the

:17:40.:17:46.

first assessment, the first recommendation they came up with was

:17:47.:17:51.

would you like cavity wall insulation? Well, we don't have

:17:52.:18:01.

cavity walls, so... I'm sorry. The EPC showed, yes, they've actually

:18:02.:18:06.

recorded it as cavity walls. We don't have them. He got another

:18:07.:18:11.

assessment. And another with a different firm. And another and

:18:12.:18:16.

another, all of wrong. After his sixth wrong assessment, he gave up

:18:17.:18:22.

in despair. The last attempt at the EPC, they failed to pick up on the

:18:23.:18:26.

fact that we have a wood burning stove. An energy assessor missed

:18:27.:18:33.

that? Yes. It's not just incompetent assessors and a complicated process.

:18:34.:18:37.

Research today shows how little the Green Deal saves you. Take a typical

:18:38.:18:41.

household dual fuel bill, ?1400 a year. The insulation would bring

:18:42.:18:48.

your bill down to ?1220. But the repayments on the loan at 8%

:18:49.:18:52.

interest would bump it up to where it was, saving you nothing. If

:18:53.:18:55.

instead, the loans were interest free, repayments would be far

:18:56.:19:02.

smaller, you'd save ?130 -- ?136 a year. The problem is what consumers

:19:03.:19:06.

are offered in terms of the product. You can go through the hassle of

:19:07.:19:10.

installing these measures with the loans provided and the result is

:19:11.:19:13.

your bill doesn't go down at all. The reason being that you're making

:19:14.:19:17.

all these loan repayments. That negates the bill savings you could

:19:18.:19:20.

achieve. By underwriting the cost of loans they could slash the interest

:19:21.:19:25.

rate to 0%, which would make savings of over ?130 available to

:19:26.:19:29.

households. Energy firms and insulation providers set up a

:19:30.:19:34.

finance company to arrange the loans with 24 had 4 -- ?244 million to

:19:35.:19:39.

lend. So far it's lent less than ?6 million. When they are being sold,

:19:40.:19:44.

they are working as intended. People are able to borrow loans of ?5,000

:19:45.:19:50.

at an APR of 8% and the whole thing is working well. We can service the

:19:51.:19:54.

plan so on and so forth. That bit is working. But it will take time to

:19:55.:19:58.

grow. Here's the problem, if you have equity in your home, you can

:19:59.:20:02.

top up your mortgage and get a cheaper loan to do the work. If

:20:03.:20:06.

you're poor you might want it because you can't get a loan

:20:07.:20:09.

elsewhere, but you're probably eligible for free help. And if

:20:10.:20:13.

you're in the middle, you won't see a saving on your bill any way. The

:20:14.:20:17.

man who was Energy Secretary when the deal was announced, it was

:20:18.:20:22.

always obvious home buyers needed a bigger incentive to do their walls

:20:23.:20:28.

and lofts, Stamp Duty relief. But the Treasury blocked it. The

:20:29.:20:32.

essential problem has been the Treasury's reluctance and

:20:33.:20:36.

particularly George Osborne's reluctant to -- reluctance to have

:20:37.:20:40.

any sort of incentive to make it happen. I just don't understand it,

:20:41.:20:45.

because ideologically he's perfectly prepared, for example, to introduce

:20:46.:20:49.

tax relief to help with gas fracking, but he's not prepared to

:20:50.:20:54.

introduce a tax relief or Stamp Duty relief to help with energy saving.

:20:55.:21:00.

Construction firms had agreed to provide the Green Deal, invested

:21:01.:21:03.

heavily before the launch and retrained fitters to do the solid

:21:04.:21:06.

wall insulation the Government wanted. With the failure of the

:21:07.:21:09.

deal, one big player, Carillionment OK Councilion, Had to -- Carillion

:21:10.:21:16.

had to let a thousand workers go. Now the energy company obligation is

:21:17.:21:20.

a problem. Energy companies, in many senses quite understandably are

:21:21.:21:23.

waiting and seeing what the Chancellor's is going to say in his

:21:24.:21:25.

Autumn Statement about this. Therefore, they're not looking to

:21:26.:21:30.

commit to new contracts, to commit to energy efficiency insulations in

:21:31.:21:34.

the new year. Now we're hearing stories of companies cancelling

:21:35.:21:37.

existing contracts. People have been gearing up to deliver for several

:21:38.:21:42.

months now significant numbers of insulations that are being pulled.

:21:43.:21:44.

People are going to lose their jobs on the back of it. With parties

:21:45.:21:50.

competing for the bill payer's vote, the Government's public doubts about

:21:51.:21:54.

green levies are leaving the companies involved to put plans on

:21:55.:21:59.

hold. They hope the uncertainty will end with the Autumn Statement.

:22:00.:22:02.

Thousands of jobs depend on it. Greg Barker is the climate change

:22:03.:22:06.

minister. Now you said in March, you wouldn't be sleeping at night if

:22:07.:22:09.

there weren't 10,000 people signed up to this by the end of the year.

:22:10.:22:12.

Would you like some sleeping pills? No, I tell you what is slightly

:22:13.:22:19.

misleading about that film is it's focussed exclusively on finance,

:22:20.:22:24.

which we identified at the start of the Green Deal as the biggest

:22:25.:22:27.

barrier to people putting in insulation measures. The fact is,

:22:28.:22:32.

which they did mention in your film, over 100,000 people have had a Green

:22:33.:22:36.

Deal assessment and contrary to what your reporter found, I'm not

:22:37.:22:40.

doubting that some of them haven't been perfect or troublesome, but

:22:41.:22:46.

actually, our evidence is that the overwhelming majority of the people,

:22:47.:22:50.

that 100,000 or more, who've had an assessment are not only really

:22:51.:22:54.

pleased with their assessment, they are taking action to put in the

:22:55.:22:58.

measures recommended. Would you tell me, is the measure of success, for

:22:59.:23:02.

me as an Energy Minister and climate change minister, is the measure of

:23:03.:23:06.

success - how many finance plans I sell? Or is it how many energy

:23:07.:23:10.

efficiency improvements are actually installed in homes? You judged it

:23:11.:23:14.

yourself, 10,000 by the end of this year and you wouldn't be sleeping at

:23:15.:23:18.

night if it was less than that. Yeah, but what I didn't reckon with

:23:19.:23:23.

- I'm not satisfied with a thousand, of course I'm not. Tell us how many

:23:24.:23:28.

Green Deal insulations there have been? We reckon something in the

:23:29.:23:32.

region of 80,000 measures have been installed. How many houses have had

:23:33.:23:38.

a Green Deal insulation? We reckon that something in the region of

:23:39.:23:46.

80,000... 80,000? Let me explain it to you. Your piece focussed

:23:47.:23:51.

exclusively on the people taking up Green Deal finance. In the

:23:52.:23:53.

long-term, that's going to be really important because we know that being

:23:54.:23:57.

able to afford these measures is a barrier to people putting them in.

:23:58.:24:02.

Let me finish. But the first 100,000 or so people who have had a Green

:24:03.:24:07.

Deal assessment, over 80% have said that they've already put in measures

:24:08.:24:12.

or they're currently putting in measure or they intend to. What you

:24:13.:24:17.

mean, then is that 80,000 people have had their homeles modified in

:24:18.:24:21.

-- homes modified in some way. You don't mean they've had a Green Deal

:24:22.:24:25.

insulation. Because the total number of them is 219. No, you're talking

:24:26.:24:30.

about finance. You're confusing the method of payment - Green Deal seems

:24:31.:24:34.

to be clearly about finance. No, there's more to it than finance. The

:24:35.:24:39.

Green Deal is first about having a Green Deal assessment, where someone

:24:40.:24:43.

spends several hours in your home, sits down around the kitchen table

:24:44.:24:47.

and takes you through the measures that will help you cut your Energy

:24:48.:24:51.

Bill. That is proving really popular. 100,000 people have had

:24:52.:24:56.

their homes assessed? More than that now. It was over 100,000 in October.

:24:57.:25:01.

You say about 80,000 have done something to the house as a

:25:02.:25:05.

consequence. We know that over 80% of the people who have been assessed

:25:06.:25:11.

have told us that they have either already installed measures or

:25:12.:25:14.

they're going to install measure or they're installing measures. Not

:25:15.:25:18.

taking up your finance arrangements? Correct. So there's something wrong

:25:19.:25:22.

with them, isn't there? No, there is not something wrong with them. If

:25:23.:25:27.

someone offers you free money, what do you do? It's not free money.

:25:28.:25:32.

Exactly. It's 8% interest. It is. Which is very expensive. It's not

:25:33.:25:37.

very expensive. Could you find 20-year finance anywhere on the High

:25:38.:25:41.

Street at 8%? Have you taken out a Green Deal financial arrangement?

:25:42.:25:44.

No, I haven't because I've already improved my home. But the fact, but

:25:45.:25:49.

Jeremy, you asked me about the finance. Could you get 8% for 20

:25:50.:25:52.

years anywhere on the High Street? Well, all I can say is that the

:25:53.:25:56.

total number of people who have done so is 219, isn't that correct? Over

:25:57.:26:00.

a thousand people are now in the system. Thousand people - -- a

:26:01.:26:06.

thousand people. Now 100,000 to 1,000? No, again you're confused.

:26:07.:26:11.

I'm not. You're confusing financing - 100,000 people have had their

:26:12.:26:16.

homes looked at. That's common ground between us. You say 80% have

:26:17.:26:20.

installed measures. A thousand people have signed up to the Green

:26:21.:26:25.

Deal financial arrangement, is that correct? That's correct. 219 have

:26:26.:26:32.

completed, is that correct? It was a couple of months ago. 219. 219! This

:26:33.:26:43.

is a failure. No, this is a really bizarre way of looking at it. If I

:26:44.:26:48.

was selling cars and actually, 100,000 cars had gone out of the

:26:49.:26:53.

showroom, but we'd only sold a thousand on finance plans, would you

:26:54.:26:56.

say that's a failure of selling cars? No, you'd say you're not

:26:57.:27:00.

selling many finance plans. If I held it as the biggest programme of

:27:01.:27:06.

housing improvement since the Second World War, and I expected 10,000

:27:07.:27:09.

people to be on it by the end of the year, I think I might consider I'd

:27:10.:27:13.

failed. Firstly, it's a 20-year programme. What we're doing is

:27:14.:27:17.

something that no-one's tried before. It's a completely novel

:27:18.:27:20.

market. There are a number of improvements that we need to make.

:27:21.:27:24.

Let's be clear, I'm not saying the Green Deal is perfect. I'm not

:27:25.:27:28.

saying we have to come forward with further improvements now that we're

:27:29.:27:33.

live and we're listening carefully to what the spliep chain are telling

:27:34.:27:37.

us -- supply chain are telling us. Some may seem technical and small

:27:38.:27:41.

adjustments, but in fact they make a big difference to the way in which

:27:42.:27:44.

it works. For example, people will be able to do a Green Deal in a day.

:27:45.:27:48.

At the moment, it takes a couple of visits. That's holding it back. Come

:27:49.:27:53.

the new year, they'll be able to do a Green Deal in a day. We're looking

:27:54.:27:59.

at ways in which we can cut through some of the paperwork to make it

:28:00.:28:04.

ease whier for people to get a Green Deal. There are certainly things we

:28:05.:28:08.

can do to improve it. Over time, next year, you're going to see an

:28:09.:28:11.

increasing number of people coming into the market to offer the Green

:28:12.:28:14.

Deal. The reality is the supply chain, the people offering the Green

:28:15.:28:17.

Deal, particularly the big six energy companies, have been very

:28:18.:28:21.

cautious to offer this product. But they're going to step up their game.

:28:22.:28:25.

What's really important, what the game changer is going to be is next

:28:26.:28:28.

year, we're going to start offering it street by street on a community

:28:29.:28:33.

basis, on an area basis. We've had a really good response to our

:28:34.:28:36.

community programme. When we start offering Green Deal on a street by

:28:37.:28:40.

street, that's when you get the real take up. Due draft it so badly? Why

:28:41.:28:45.

did we draft it so badly? I don't think we did draft it badly. You're

:28:46.:28:50.

having to make huge changes to it? Which huge changes? The whole street

:28:51.:28:53.

idea you've mentioned, which seems to me or many people - That wasn't

:28:54.:28:58.

in the drafting, that's simply that comes in the next phase. That

:28:59.:29:02.

doesn't change any drafting. We are running the competition, we've had

:29:03.:29:06.

the applications in. We've been overwhelmed by positive response

:29:07.:29:11.

from big metropolitan councils up and down the country - Manchester,

:29:12.:29:17.

Leeds, Birmingham, Bristol, keen to participate and offer it on a street

:29:18.:29:22.

by street basis. I've always said it's the area-based rollout of the

:29:23.:29:25.

deal that's really going to put rockets underneath it. I think

:29:26.:29:28.

that's right. That's when the finance is going to be important.

:29:29.:29:32.

What we want to do now is take the subsidised offer that eco over a

:29:33.:29:37.

quarter of a million homes have had that this year. We want to marry it

:29:38.:29:42.

with the Green Deal. You get a much more joined up offer. It should have

:29:43.:29:46.

been joined up in the first place, shouldn't it? Rome wasn't built in a

:29:47.:29:50.

day and this is a novel product. The important thing is we are improving

:29:51.:29:55.

it as we go. We will be announcing more incentives as Chris said. I

:29:56.:29:59.

have a lot of respect for Chris Huhne. We work together very well,

:30:00.:30:02.

but he's wrong. George Osborne has given us ?200 million. We haven't

:30:03.:30:07.

deployed that money yet. Come next year, we will see steady growth in

:30:08.:30:11.

the Green Deal, which is a 20-year programme, don't write it off yet.

:30:12.:30:14.

Minister, thank you. Now, two men will be sentenced

:30:15.:30:18.

tomorrow for their part in a horrible example of mob justice.

:30:19.:30:22.

Their victim was a disabled man, whom neighbours became convinced was

:30:23.:30:27.

a paedophile. He wasn't. But that didn't save him from being beaten

:30:28.:30:30.

unconscious and then set on fire. There are two separate

:30:31.:30:33.

investigations going on into the case now. Jon Kay has more in a

:30:34.:30:40.

report which some viewers may find disturbing.

:30:41.:30:45.

He was such a clever guy. He was very funny. He was a good brother.

:30:46.:30:49.

He was very kind. He was a good uncle. He really made our life so

:30:50.:31:00.

fun for us. We cared about him so much. Maneesha remembering her

:31:01.:31:11.

younger brother Bijan Ebrahimi. He came to Britain as a refugee from

:31:12.:31:16.

Iran a decade ago. He believed he would be safer here. But this

:31:17.:31:20.

summer, he was kicked to death and his body set on fire because

:31:21.:31:25.

neighbours wrongly thought he was a paedophile. Losing someone is really

:31:26.:31:35.

difficult to come to terms with, but losing someone in such a way, it's

:31:36.:31:41.

unimaginable for us to come to terms with that. You never, ever thought

:31:42.:31:48.

that anyone can do such a barbaric act. He lived alone on a Council

:31:49.:31:54.

estate on the outskirts of Bristol. His garden was his pride and joy.

:31:55.:32:00.

But four months on, his home is abandoned. There's little to

:32:01.:32:06.

indicate what happened here. Avon and Somerset Police say the rumours

:32:07.:32:12.

that became rife here this summer were completely untrue. Officers

:32:13.:32:17.

have told me that Bijan Ebrahimi was not a paedophile, that an entirely

:32:18.:32:22.

innocent man was murdered. So for his family, the question is: How

:32:23.:32:27.

could things have got so out of control? With them out of the

:32:28.:32:31.

country at the time, what could have been done to protect him? Lee James,

:32:32.:32:40.

who lived just a couple of doors away, has admitted murdering Bijan

:32:41.:32:45.

Ebrahimi. Another neighbour, Stephen Norley, has admitted assisting James

:32:46.:32:49.

in setting the body on fire. They will be sentenced tomorrow. A CCTV

:32:50.:32:58.

camera caught the pair that night. Bijan's body was dragged to a piece

:32:59.:33:03.

of grass 100 yards from his home and then set alight. He wasn't a

:33:04.:33:13.

paedophile. He made life, losing him so difficult to come to terms of

:33:14.:33:17.

losing him in such ape way. And then having that allegation, which is

:33:18.:33:24.

completely untrue. It seems the paedophile rumours started because

:33:25.:33:28.

Bijan Ebrahimi had been taking photos on the estate. His family

:33:29.:33:33.

says he'd been told by the authorities to gather evidence of

:33:34.:33:37.

harassment, because he was trying to get re-housed. The council is now

:33:38.:33:45.

carrying out its own investigation. He was just a one-off thing. Over

:33:46.:33:51.

the years, he was subjected to these incidents. Thi was motivating these

:33:52.:34:00.

incidents? Was it racial? Based on his disability? Why was he being

:34:01.:34:08.

picked on? Both. Just because, I think he felt they was different

:34:09.:34:12.

that they picked on him. Ittuals a hate crime. -- it was a hate crime,

:34:13.:34:21.

obviously. You can feel it. It was a hate crime. A couple of days before

:34:22.:34:26.

Bijan Ebrahimi was murdered, there was a disturbance outside his home.

:34:27.:34:31.

He was taken away by police. He came back to his flat the following day,

:34:32.:34:37.

having been released without charge. But given the tensions here, and the

:34:38.:34:42.

fact that his relatives were all abroad, his family feel he should

:34:43.:34:46.

not have been allowed to return home. 48 hours later, he was dead.

:34:47.:34:58.

The IPCC are now looking at the way Bijan's was dealt with in the days

:34:59.:35:01.

before he died. We can't prejudge that. What do you want answers to

:35:02.:35:06.

when that investigation report finally comes out? We want to know

:35:07.:35:15.

that, we want to find out what happened to Bijan's in the last few

:35:16.:35:18.

days, as I said, he made so many calls. We want to know what calls he

:35:19.:35:23.

made. We want to know why, if he asked for help, why they didn't give

:35:24.:35:31.

him the help that he deserved. The Chief Constable of Avon and Somerset

:35:32.:35:36.

Police has already said that collectively the agencies and

:35:37.:35:41.

authorities failed your brother. When you heard that, what was your

:35:42.:35:49.

reaction? When you heard the word "we failed him"? Disappointed,

:35:50.:35:56.

frustrated and sad. How could someone like him or anyone else,

:35:57.:36:02.

could be failed by so many agencies, not one, two, so many people that

:36:03.:36:12.

were involved. I wish they can coordinate with each other better,

:36:13.:36:17.

in a better way that no-one goes through this failure again and

:36:18.:36:23.

no-one be subjected to this sort of tragic way of being murdered. Do you

:36:24.:36:31.

feel failed as a family by what has happened to your brother? Yes. We

:36:32.:36:36.

are failed by the system. We feel so strongly about it. We are so

:36:37.:36:44.

disappointed. We feel so let down by the police and other agencies. We

:36:45.:36:53.

would like to know why. That report from Jon Kay. Now the murky world of

:36:54.:36:57.

Falkirk politics. You might recall the original short list of Labour

:36:58.:37:01.

candidates to fight the general election in that seat was mired in

:37:02.:37:04.

controversy over claims that the party's main donor, the union,

:37:05.:37:09.

Unite, had tried to fix the choice of candidate by packing the

:37:10.:37:13.

constituency with its members. One as yet unpublished inquiry late

:37:14.:37:18.

irand a -- later and a new short list will be announced tomorrow. One

:37:19.:37:21.

name is notably absent from the list, that of the whistle-blower who

:37:22.:37:25.

made the original allegations against unite and the only local

:37:26.:37:29.

candidate in the constituency. Chris Mason can tell us more. What's

:37:30.:37:34.

happened? The woman in question Linda Gowe is the original

:37:35.:37:37.

whistle-blower. There's been a protest to draw up a short list of

:37:38.:37:41.

Labour candidates to replace Eric Joyce, who is sitting down after the

:37:42.:37:48.

dust up in a House of Commons bar. Newsnight approached Linda Gowe

:37:49.:37:52.

tonight, she was surprised to see us and not entirely delighted but

:37:53.:37:56.

confirmed that she hasn't made the final short list of three. Why has

:37:57.:38:00.

that happened? She was pretty spiky in an interview in the Herald

:38:01.:38:05.

newspaper about the protest, about this unpublished report about what

:38:06.:38:07.

went on, saying it should be published. What are Labour saying?

:38:08.:38:12.

They're saying it's a load of nonsense to suggest this was a

:38:13.:38:15.

stitch up and that she's been sat on and punished in any way. There was

:38:16.:38:20.

an open process with five senior figures selecting this final short

:38:21.:38:24.

list. That was honest and transparent. There hasn't been, as I

:38:25.:38:27.

say, any sort of sense of aI stitch-up. Why does this matter,

:38:28.:38:33.

subsection 42 of a local spat? Why should we care? It's still running

:38:34.:38:38.

as a septic sore for Labour. They're looking at how they fund themselves

:38:39.:38:42.

with the trades unions. We haven't heard the last of this, I suspect. .

:38:43.:38:48.

Now, had a fizzy drink today? Did you enjoy the vast quaunts of sugar

:38:49.:38:52.

you gulped down? The quickest glance down the High Street will tell you

:38:53.:38:56.

how horribly obese much of the population has become. And doctors

:38:57.:39:00.

are increasingly saying that sugary drinks are a main reason and that

:39:01.:39:04.

they ought, like cigarettes, to be taxed to put people off buying them.

:39:05.:39:08.

It's an idea the drinks manufacturers hate. But campaigners

:39:09.:39:13.

say that also echoes the smoking debate. Look what the tobacco

:39:14.:39:18.

companies said and did. The appeal of fizzy drinks is

:39:19.:39:22.

obvious enough, an instant pleasure that's supposed to perk you up. But

:39:23.:39:26.

the active ingrowedient is old fashioned sugar, lots of it. A

:39:27.:39:31.

single can of cola can contain the equivalent of up to nine tea spoons

:39:32.:39:35.

full of the stuff. As doctors came to real aisles that cigarettes did

:39:36.:39:40.

not, as their makers claimed, make you healthy, they're now worrying

:39:41.:39:44.

about fizzy drinks. One of the biggest problems facing the Western

:39:45.:39:48.

world at the moment is the obesity crisis. Added sugar has no

:39:49.:39:54.

nutritional value whatsoever. The body does not require any

:39:55.:39:58.

carbohydrate from added sugar, despite the fact that the industry

:39:59.:40:02.

markets these products as being full of energy. Believe me, it's energy

:40:03.:40:06.

you don't want. It's energy you are don't need. So we know the

:40:07.:40:10.

consumption of just one sugary drink, typical of a can of coal ya,

:40:11.:40:14.

increases the risk of type two diabetes about 22%, independent of

:40:15.:40:19.

body weight. This study was published from Imperial College

:40:20.:40:26.

rere-- research. Believe me, type two diabetes is a condition you do

:40:27.:40:30.

not want to get if you can avoid it. It is entirely preventible. This

:40:31.:40:34.

condition is associated with heart attacks, strokes, kidney disease,

:40:35.:40:38.

blindness, amputation, increased risk of depression, increased risk

:40:39.:40:44.

of Alzheimer's and incooessing the risk of many cancers. Coca-Cola is

:40:45.:40:48.

introducing a new smaller can for the UK. Does it demonstrate a new

:40:49.:40:53.

commitment to tackling obesity or just a cleverer way to sell sugar?

:40:54.:41:01.

James Quincey is the president of Coca-Cola Europe. What good does

:41:02.:41:06.

Coca-Cola do you physically? I think Coca-Cola, as the introduction said,

:41:07.:41:11.

does have some sugar in it. It is energy. Is it a necessity? No, it's

:41:12.:41:16.

not. Millions of people enjoy it as part of their diet across the UK.

:41:17.:41:21.

Does have some sugar in it, you say. It does. Why don't you say

:41:22.:41:24.

specifically how much sugar there is in this can, for example? I think if

:41:25.:41:31.

you find, if you turn... You have a percentage on there. Yes right here

:41:32.:41:36.

on the front it quite clearly calls out the amount of sugar in this can

:41:37.:41:42.

of coke, 35 grams, which is six tea spoons of sugar, which is about the

:41:43.:41:48.

same amount of calories as a cappuccino or half a croissant.

:41:49.:41:53.

We're saying look, the information is here. We want to promote and make

:41:54.:41:56.

sure people know. If people know that they go to the cinema and get a

:41:57.:42:00.

small one and there are big ones here too, if you get a jug of coke

:42:01.:42:04.

like this, do you think people have any idea how much sugar is in it?

:42:05.:42:10.

Maybe they don't. Do you know what it is? Look at this. 23 sachets of

:42:11.:42:20.

sugar in that single containers. That is a staggering amount of

:42:21.:42:24.

sugar, isn't it? That is why we're very focussed as one of the things

:42:25.:42:27.

we're doing on getting the information out there. We're not

:42:28.:42:31.

trying to hide the information behind what's in hay Coca-Cola

:42:32.:42:36.

classic. But there's zero sugar in a coke zero. But the classic here,

:42:37.:42:43.

there's 44 packets of sugar in this one. 44! Indeed there are. I think

:42:44.:42:49.

what we're saying is look, we want to make sure that people have the

:42:50.:42:52.

information available to them so that they can make the choices and

:42:53.:42:56.

if they don't want the big one, then fine, clearly that is not one that's

:42:57.:43:00.

going to be for everyone. We want to make sure the information is

:43:01.:43:02.

available. We want to make sure there's more availability of more

:43:03.:43:06.

choices, whether it's smaller packages, as you had in your

:43:07.:43:09.

intro... Whether it's 23 in something this size or 44 in

:43:10.:43:13.

something this size, each of which is to be consumed in one single

:43:14.:43:17.

sitting at the cinema, this is staggering, isn't it? Look, I think

:43:18.:43:21.

we do need to recognise that things need to change. Bigger cups need to

:43:22.:43:26.

come down. I don't think we are talking that the world can't change

:43:27.:43:29.

and the world doesn't need to move on. What it comes back to is we

:43:30.:43:33.

recognise that the, we need to play our part in helping to fix this very

:43:34.:43:38.

important issue of obesity. It's something that's come about from us

:43:39.:43:41.

taking in too manical Rhyls and not burning them off with CAC tit. Many

:43:42.:43:45.

things too many calories and not burning

:43:46.:43:53.

them off can activity. We're increasing choices of the small

:43:54.:43:57.

cans, helping people manage their calories, promoting the zero calorie

:43:58.:44:01.

options, if people are having trouble. You accept your role in the

:44:02.:44:06.

obesity epidemic do you? I think as a contributor of calories into the

:44:07.:44:10.

British diet, of course we must. Soft drinks, all soft drinks

:44:11.:44:13.

together contribute 2% of the calories. It's a part of it.

:44:14.:44:17.

Therefore we need to accept our role and we do. That's why we want to

:44:18.:44:21.

focus on actions that we believe will help bring this crisis under

:44:22.:44:25.

control. What you're doing very similar to what the tobacco

:44:26.:44:30.

companies did when, after the link with cancer had been established,

:44:31.:44:34.

started then trying to get us all to smoke light cigarettes, as opposed

:44:35.:44:38.

to saying don't have any of them? I think there's a very clear

:44:39.:44:41.

distinction between tobacco and anything to do with food and drink.

:44:42.:44:44.

Because in the end, there's no amount of tobacco that's good for

:44:45.:44:50.

you. It directly causes some of the diseases. With food and drink,

:44:51.:44:53.

anything in moderation can work within your lifestyle. Unwave -- one

:44:54.:44:58.

of these packets in a cup of tea during the course of a day, maybe

:44:59.:45:02.

even two, but 23 in the smallest container at the cinema? The reality

:45:03.:45:08.

people aren't drinking those - and I think what we need to focus on, if

:45:09.:45:12.

we're trying to solve obesity it's about information. If you have the

:45:13.:45:14.

information and you decide or whoever decides not to have it,

:45:15.:45:17.

absolutely fine, what we're here to do is get the information into

:45:18.:45:21.

people's hands, help them make the choices that fit their lifestyle,

:45:22.:45:25.

their choices during a week, and also, get out there and try to

:45:26.:45:30.

promote activity with some NGO partners to try and help the other

:45:31.:45:33.

side of the equation and burn off some of those calories. When you

:45:34.:45:37.

look out there, has anyone actually solved the crisis? Sometimes we look

:45:38.:45:42.

at things and say, well, what will work? But sometimes we have to look

:45:43.:45:48.

at things that has happened. There's an approach started in France, moved

:45:49.:45:51.

across Europe is now spreading across the world, where they've

:45:52.:45:54.

brought down childhood obesity by 20%. It's not by taking some eye

:45:55.:46:00.

catching or simple measures, they did a number of things bringing in

:46:01.:46:05.

private companies, health companies, local government, communities and

:46:06.:46:09.

brought down childhood obesity by 20%. Very much. Tomorrow morning's

:46:10.:46:17.

front pages: I only have one here: It's the Times - it says that David

:46:18.:46:22.

Cameron has decided that cigarettes are going to be sold in plain

:46:23.:46:26.

packages before the next general election. Now, this was a position

:46:27.:46:32.

which the Conservatives, up to now, had rejected. Chris Mason is still

:46:33.:46:39.

here. So, quite dramatic, isn't it? Yes, something of a U-turn on a

:46:40.:46:43.

U-turn. The Government went cold on this idea about six months ago. Now

:46:44.:46:48.

they're having a review about it, an open mind about the outcome. There

:46:49.:46:51.

will be time to legislate after that review in the spring, if it's

:46:52.:46:55.

something they want to role with. It would appear they have gone from a

:46:56.:46:59.

position of being cold, to being warmer towards it. It's a second

:47:00.:47:02.

example in a couple of days of them being seen to stand up to big

:47:03.:47:05.

business after the payday loan stuff, which is interesting.

:47:06.:47:08.

Thank you. That's all from us tonight. In case you missed it,

:47:09.:47:13.

Prince William has been all over the media, after appearing with a couple

:47:14.:47:16.

of Popstars supporting a charity for homeless young people.

:47:17.:47:28.

# Oohhh, living on a prayer # As you saw, he didn't have time to

:47:29.:47:32.

perform much himself, but at the flash of the Newsnight petty cash

:47:33.:47:37.

box, his reticence vanish. We are short of time, but better late than

:47:38.:47:39.

never.

:47:40.:47:43.

Government plans to toughen welfare rules for EU migrants, and what has gone wrong with the Green Deal?

Also, the man killed by mob justice, the latest on the Falkirk row and an interview with Coke's European boss.


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