11/12/2013 Newsnight


11/12/2013

Ofsted's chief inspector of schools; the cost of energy; the Jimmy Savile scandal; scientology; and one of the stars of Anchorman.


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There are too many schools in England where behaviour is bad and

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disruptive. Learning is hampered by teachers who can't keep control, the

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Chief Inspector thinks it is time to act. If they are persistently

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incompetent, and from school to school to school, yes they should

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and be deregistered. How the cost of energy is affecting almost the way

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everyone lives. The heating is on for a very short amount of time, we

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have extra bedding, we go to bed wearing quite a lot of cloths,

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almost as if you are going out for the evening. We talk to the couple

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who have Scientology declared a religion. There is Diane from Carson

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City. She's my aunt! And the Anchorman's weatherman. Tonight on

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Newsnight there will be an awful lot of me, probably too much! First the

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good news, schooling in England is getting better. Now the bad, there

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are too many children of poorer white families failing to reach

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their potential, and there are still far too many classrooms which are

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disrupted by low-level bad behaviour. Sir Michael Wilshaw,

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Ofsted's Chief Inspector of Schools is planning to launch unannounced

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inspections where it seems to be a real problem. He also wants the

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Government to reinstate national tests for 7-14-year-olds, cue

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predictable outrage from teaching trade unions. For years this school

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was failing, now a new headteacher is starting to turn it round. Tag

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rugby is just one of the ways children at Dover road Primary

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School in Gravesend learn team work and self-discipline. Key to better

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behaviour in the class and around the school. The school council were

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keen to tell me how buggying used -- bullying used to be rife, how

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classes were often disrupted and how it has changed now. I used to get

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bullied in class and they used to call me names. Now we have new

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teachers they have separated me from the people who call me names. The

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teachers understand you if you are upset, you get work done quicker

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because they make you happier. In the past when the teachers explained

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we still didn't understand and then we never would understand. The new

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teachers make it clear. I would wake up and tell my mum an excuse I'm

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feeling ill, I don't want to go to school, but now I'm up early and do

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all my work and really enjoy it. I'm smarter because of the teachers. And

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sometimes like, when I have been doing literacy I have made lots of

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mistakes on my handwriting and words, now I'm on to pen and I know

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most of the words. It was the local authority, Kent, who sent Catherine

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Ward to this school to assess it in January. She ended up staying as the

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school's head when Dover road became a sponsored academy last month. .

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The number one thing that made the difference for me is, it was an is

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the children. The children are delightful, they want to learn, they

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are eager to come to school and they were desperate for good learning.

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And so that was the fundamental thing and I thought right, that's

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what gets me out of bed every day. Ready and enrol, show me your

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character again, stop. Most of these pupils are from white British

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backgrounds, a high proportion are eligible for free school meals, the

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very group Ofsted said today are underachieving in English schools.

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The new head has brought in many new teachers and a new culture. For my

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first few weeks around the school I noticed there was a lack of respect

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for children with each other, a lack of respect for children with some

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adults. Different groups of adults as well. And that the manners, the

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fundamental manners weren't there for the children. I started

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basically saying we are not going to do this more, and we took it back to

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the basic manners of how we behave, to 0 please, thank you, opening

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doors for each other, taking turns, not jumping the queue, being

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responsible for each other, just a fundamental basic good manners. We

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only spoke to handful of parents, one was happy with the new

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discipline? Just this morning, tucking his shirt into his trousers,

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two or three weeks ago he wouldn't have been doing that, he wouldn't

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have cared. Now he's coming into school making sure he as smart and

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tidy and saying please and thank you. It's just brilliant. Others

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said their children were learning more and the school's reputation is

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improving? He's gone up a whole level in the last six months. And he

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was working at the same level for three years. I think positivity has

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really grown within the school and the school's name is changing. The

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changes here at Dover Road are what Sir Michael Wilshaw said today he

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would like to see across the country, the teaching has improved,

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the children's behaviour is much better and they are learning much,

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much more. This has to happen everywhere, according to Ofsted, if

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we are to compete with the rest of the world. The school is sponsored

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by an academy group set up by heads. In the last 12 months, thanks to the

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Department of Education, they have quietly taken over more than 20

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schools right across the country. We are about cautious growth. The

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question is can we help the school, do we understand the challenges it

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face, do we have the expertise and capacity in order for us to do. That

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the answer for us is we will grow as long as we keep doing the good work

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we keep doing it. On a brief visit to this school we found no

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opposition to the change in status. Elsewhere parents have fought and

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are fighting campaigns to stop their schools becoming sponsored

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academies. They worry the schools won't be accountable to the local

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community and they want to know more about the groups who are now running

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them. Earlier I went to the Ofsted offices in central London to meet

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Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Schools, Sir Michael Wilshaw. I

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asked him why low standards had been tolerated so long? We need to step

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up several gears, if we are going to match the best in the world,

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certainly if we are going to match the Asian countries that came top of

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the league. We need to accelerate and put our foot down on the

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achievement pedal much harder than we have done. That is why in my

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report I said a few uncomfortable things. Like we have to stop this

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low-level disruption which irritates teachers and makes them think hard

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about their jobs. We have something like 1500 teachers from the state

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system leaving for the independent sector every year. I suspect if you

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talk to them they would say we have gone into the independent sector

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because we had enough of this low-level disruption we see in

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schools. I have heard teachers and you must have heard teachers say

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precisely that, that I just want to work somewhere when you call a class

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to order it is quiet. And everyone can get on with their work. I have

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heard them say, that you must have heard lots of them say that, why is

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it had being tolerated? It is tolerated by poor leadership. I was

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a headteacher before joining Ofsted and worked in tough inner city

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schools in London. I cracked down hard on poor behaviour. Children go

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to school wanting to succeed. It is the environment they go into that

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makes the difference. It is the quality of leadership that makes the

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difference, it is the quality of teaching they receive and the

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culture in the school. And the most important thing in a school is that

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leadership. A lot of people don't want to become head teachers aren't

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there? We should be optimistic, we have better people coming into the

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profession. A lot of them will want to stay there and become head

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teachers. It is now a well-paid job in way it wasn't years ago. The

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status has gone up. Presumably a lot more should have got rid of? Head

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teachers. There are 400,000 teachers in this country, and they are

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dismissed from the profession at the rate of 20 a year? I think there is

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a story behind that. I think what tends to happen is that head

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teachers write nice references for people they want to get rid of,

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rather than going through complex difficult Compat Tennessee and dis--

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componency and difficult disciplinary procedures, rather than

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saying you are not doing well here, I will write you a decent enough

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reference and off you go to another school. You have these poor

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low-performing teachers, circulating through the system and the old

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General Teaching Council did very little about it. So you think they

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should be got rid of from the profession all together, rather than

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another school to inflict their incompetence? Some of them if they

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are persistently incompetent and from school to school to school, yes

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they should and they should be deregistered. Do you know how many

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there are, roughly? No, when we go into schools and we see a poor or

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inadequate lesson and we would mention it to the headteacher. It is

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only the headteacher who knows if that teach certificate behaving

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poory day after day and month after month and then it is up to the head

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teachers to make decisions. Should that system be changed so that

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something could be done to weed out bad teachers? Again this is a policy

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issue, I know what I would do if I was the Secretary of State. What

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would you do? First of all I think it is right to raise the bar and get

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good people into the profession, whether they have qualified teacher

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status or not. Good people, we need to keep them in there and extend the

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probationary period. I think a probationary period of one year is

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too short. I think we should have a probationary period of three, four,

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five years, and then make a decision whether somebody really is, should

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be given qualified teacher status. There are great swathes of this

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country where people have very low expectations and there is a culture

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of low expectation, households where people don't expect ever to regain

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the sort of traditional patterns of work that exists in their

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grandparents' days. You really do believe a school can break that

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culture of expectation? You can break it I have seen it been broken,

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and this pupil premium giving children extra money will give the

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money for extension classes in the evening. I made it clear to the

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staff in my school that they were surrogate parents for a significant

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number of children, and if they wanted to be employed they would

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have to work in the evenings and weekends to compensate for the

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deficits at home. And that, and they would be paid well for doing that.

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And I used the additional funding to enhance their salaries. Melanie

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Phillips is a commentator with a long standing interest in education,

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Tom Bennett is a secondary school teacher and blogger for the Times

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Educational Supplement. Let's take the idea that some how there needs

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to be a thinning out of the teaching profession. What do you think about

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that? I think as with most professions there is always some bad

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eggs because any profession you work in you will find that. What the

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problem is I will de-Virgin slightly, it is not that there is so

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many bad teachers, it is there is a failure to deal with the issue.

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There has been failure for the school system and teacher training

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providers to face up to the fact that behaviour was bad. You were

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taught how to control a difficult class? No, I was taught very badly,

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I'm a prime example, I spent two years at being terrible at

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controlling behaviour, I kept my mouth shut to get through my

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probation and not get sacked. What do you think? I think in order to

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attend to achievement you have to attend to behaviour and it is a

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package. It is a problem in the teaching profession, there are

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cultural problems in the teaching profession, it is called the soft

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bigotry of low expectation. Where white working-class children these

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days, it used to be black working-class children written off,

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there is a more general problem with the adult world, the adult world has

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been terrified of children for many years now. It has decided it has to

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make friends of children, and it has to be very casual and informal, we

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call them kids. And teachers, I'm sure Tom is an exception, but

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teachers very often have trees Deed down, they have been very -- dressed

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down, and they have been casual and become like parents, the children's

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friends, children don't like that, they want respect. Do you think it

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makes a difference what they wear, he should be wearing a tie? It is

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the BBC afterall. He has dressed down for the BBC. Children need

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respect. One of the things I have often noticed that children who have

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come from terrible backgrounds where they have been excluded from school,

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they burned down the school and you asked them what was wrong with your

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school and they say immediately the teachers didn't treat me with

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respect. They didn't expect me to do hard things. They didn't tell me the

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rules, they want to be given that kind of set of bound lease, that

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makes -- boundaries, that makes them feel accepted. Does that chime with

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your experience? I would agree with what you were saying, it was said

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that there was a crisis of adult authority in mainly western

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authorities. There is definitely a problem there. That has infected the

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way in which we have raised our teachers and we have made our

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expectations in school sometimes a little bit too low. There are for

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instance two schools in every school, there is the school of the

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high status professional there for a long time with low timetable, and

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there is the supply teacher and occasional teacher and they are two

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different schools. You mean the supply teacher and less experienced

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teacher finds it hard to control a class? Enormously so. I remember

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when there was a report from Dispatches who went in and filmed a

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supply teacher and it was appalling. What about what was proposed in the

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interview that the probationary period be extended, up to five years

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before you can get a permanent job? I do think we need to be a little

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bit more stringent with how we pass teachers. Because by the time they

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get accepted on to courses there is an enormous pressure on teacher

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training providers to pass and certified -- certify them. I don't

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think one is ignore the impact of the last few decades, teachers led

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up the garden path where teacher training colleges have taught them

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unteaching. This small example this idea that a child's self-esteem is

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very important, I would personally agree, the idea that in order to

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protect the child's self-esteem heaven forbid you give them a

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problem they might fail, and you lower the bar all the time. Children

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are not stupid and they understand they are treated as more rans and

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they -- morans and they behave like that. If you expect they can achieve

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more and more they do achieve more and more, it is not rocket science.

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The other thing very striking is the way in which we have all seemed to

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accept that there will be always a low level of disruption in schools

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at some point. You say it is different experience for different

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teachers, but it is accepted as a precedent in many schools. Look at

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that fantastic school in Gravesend we saw in the report there, that was

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really impressive wasn't it. The strategy of it is that just about

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any school and any teacher can have great behaviour in in their lessons.

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One of the things is many teachers don't know what to do. Often in many

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schools there aren't the structures to support teachers who do know what

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they are doing. A lot comes down to leadership? Head teachers. It has to

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come from them. They need to have leadership from the political class,

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the Ofsteds and from the whole sort of culture that supports them in

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being proper leaders. I know a lot of teachers who go through teacher

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training and have one hour's worth of behaviour management training and

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it is so central to great learning. The fact we have learned to ignore

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this is absurd. I must say I thought talking to Michael Wilshaw he had

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actually had a pretty upbeat picture of many areas of school anything

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this country. That it is not all a disaster? According to Ofsted eight

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out of ten schools is good or fairly better. It was only recently Ofsted

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told us their satisfactory category was unstreet. Frankly --

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unsatisfactory, Ofsted have led us up the garden path saying lots of

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schools are fine when they are rubbish so I take it with a pinch of

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salt. I think Michael Wilshaw talks sense but Ofsted has had a problem

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with the framework and the inspectors, it is a political

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institution and has to deliver to ministers improvement. It doesn't

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necessarily accord with reality. I would rarely qualify any school as

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rubbish. There is always variation within every school, pockets of

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excellence even with the schools in the most dire circumstances and

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situations. I think what Michael Wilshaw is very interesting and

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pointing out is that he's going beyond the very averaged out data

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that we see from places like Ofsted. Because he as a practitioner

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himself, he's wise enough to see that there is a big, big problem,

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not necessarily with schools and entire boroughs collapsing, but

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certainly there is pockets of problems in just about every school

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I would say. Do you find our industry slightly

:19:11.:19:15.

ludicrous? I think, yes. And I will say that to your face! Now to what

:19:16.:19:21.

has turned out to be the biggest story in politics this autumn. Every

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serious party has had to re-think what it plans to do about the cost

:19:25.:19:29.

of energy. According to the retiring boss of British Gas it's all a Punch

:19:30.:19:34.

and Judy show, damaging the poor energy companies. But the reason it

:19:35.:19:37.

has become such a hot political topic is the cost of keeping warm

:19:38.:19:41.

has become a matter of anxiety, right across the land, north and

:19:42.:19:44.

south, poor and those who wouldn't dream of calling themselves rich.

:19:45.:20:19.

I switched energy companies, cut down my payments on the promise that

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the fuel would be cheaper and some how have built up a debt. I'm now

:20:29.:20:33.

not only paying for what I'm using, but I'm paying for a debt I ran up

:20:34.:20:37.

last winter. The payments I'm paying now are double. They want them to be

:20:38.:20:43.

triple. I will be honest with you I'm frightened of putting the

:20:44.:20:46.

heating on. The amount of heating I would like to keep this house warm

:20:47.:20:54.

I'm just frightened. My income is ?7200 a year. I spent ?110 a month

:20:55.:21:01.

on gas and electricity, that nowhere near covers the cost of what I need

:21:02.:21:06.

to keep warm. The heating is on for a short amount of time every day, we

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have extra bedding, we go to bed wearing quite a lot of clothes,

:21:12.:21:14.

almost as if you are going out for the evening. We haven't really hit

:21:15.:21:22.

the main winter yet. If it gets much colder I don't know how we go

:21:23.:21:35.

forward. If you think about you go to a clinic and you have some tests

:21:36.:21:41.

and they say to you, it's possibly it is cancer, you go, you wait in

:21:42.:21:49.

fear. And eventually you are diagnosed it is a fairly rare

:21:50.:21:53.

cancer, cancer of the bone marrow basically. Chemotherapy means that

:21:54.:21:57.

you are going to change and you will feel the cold like you have never

:21:58.:22:01.

felt the cold before. And particularly extremities. You can't

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quite believe to what extent you need to keep warm. I try to keep

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busy because when you are busy you keep warm. But if you sit down in a

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cold room after about five or ten minutes you will start to feel very,

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very cold. And when it's freezing out there and last winter was

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dreadful, if we get the same this winter then I will be cold and cold

:22:22.:22:31.

a lot. I will deal with it. It is hard to get my head around I will

:22:32.:22:36.

feel ill, cold and isolated. It is scary time and a sad time for all

:22:37.:22:48.

the family. I feel for them more than I feel for myself. We are

:22:49.:22:59.

cutting back on everything, there is no basic activities back on the

:23:00.:23:03.

running costs. After the children go to bed I don't have the heating on

:23:04.:23:08.

any more. You get cold? Yes. Do you wish mum would put the heating on a

:23:09.:23:13.

bit more? Yes. But normally we would have to put a blanket round

:23:14.:23:16.

ourselves. Do you understand why you can't have the heating on? We just

:23:17.:23:21.

can't because it is too much money to pay. I do understand they have to

:23:22.:23:24.

make some profit, because they have to keep our lights and our gas, they

:23:25.:23:30.

have got to do that we have to have the lights and everything on. I

:23:31.:23:34.

understand that, but do they need all these vast profits? We all need

:23:35.:23:40.

fuel. So we don't really have a choice. We can cut it down and

:23:41.:23:45.

cutback and wear more clothes and we can try whatever tricks we want to

:23:46.:23:49.

keep warm, but we all essentially need it. Basically they are screwing

:23:50.:24:00.

us for something we need Cancer comes with a lot of fear, to sit at

:24:01.:24:05.

home feeling in pain and fear will you butt also freezing cold. I

:24:06.:24:11.

almost feel guilty I can afford the heat, I have never known a time like

:24:12.:24:16.

this, I'm 73 years old, I have never known a time when it is so in your

:24:17.:24:26.

face that how this poverty that how this fuel poverty is affecting

:24:27.:24:30.

everyone. What is it like to sit there with no food in the house or

:24:31.:24:35.

heating, and decide whether or not to heat. It must be dreadful. If

:24:36.:24:43.

they are saying that 31,000 people in this country will die of cold in

:24:44.:24:47.

the winter, is it right that should happen. We're supposed to be a

:24:48.:25:05.

wealthy country aren't we? The BBC's latest attempt to restore public

:25:06.:25:08.

confidence was to announce today that it's reforming its management

:25:09.:25:12.

structure. The corporation's chairman said that faith in the

:25:13.:25:15.

nation's biggest cultural institution had been rattled, more

:25:16.:25:22.

rattlement in the release on-line of a recording of the man who conducted

:25:23.:25:27.

the investigation into who knew what when in the Jimmy Savile scandal.

:25:28.:25:31.

The corporation welcomes this as much as you would welcome you

:25:32.:25:36.

stepped in dog Poe on the way to be made a member of the Order of Merit.

:25:37.:25:41.

It is a complicated story and one of the few men in England who can

:25:42.:25:46.

unravel it is with me here. The Pollard inquiry was called to look

:25:47.:25:50.

into the widespread belief, or suspicion that the Newsnight Savile

:25:51.:25:54.

investigation, which was canned, might have been stopped because of

:25:55.:26:00.

overriding corporate interests in the Christmas schedule, the tribute

:26:01.:26:03.

programmes to Savile, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. In fairness

:26:04.:26:07.

Pollard concluded very clearly that there was no such conspiracy, and I

:26:08.:26:11.

should say at the outset. Nothing in what I'm going to say should be

:26:12.:26:15.

taken to mean that conclusion was drawn into question, it hasn't been.

:26:16.:26:20.

Interestingly there was an awful lot of stuff in the Pollard report about

:26:21.:26:25.

who knew what when. Mark Thompson, the Director General at the time,

:26:26.:26:28.

maintained throughout although he was told, there had been an

:26:29.:26:31.

investigation to Jimmy Savile by Newsnight which was stopped, he was

:26:32.:26:35.

never told he, he maintained of the nature of it. He was never told it

:26:36.:26:43.

was about sexual abuse. You are about to hear a tape where Poland,

:26:44.:26:48.

who did the report, confirms to a journalist last February that he had

:26:49.:26:52.

received a letter there are Helen Boden, the director of news at the

:26:53.:26:56.

time, that is her picture there, a letter from her saying that she had

:26:57.:26:59.

in fact had a conversation with Thomson where she had told him that

:27:00.:27:03.

the investigation was about sexual abuse. So you will hear him

:27:04.:27:08.

decribing this to the journalist. Also interesting to listen, it is

:27:09.:27:15.

clear Pollard, the author of a ?3 million report, a public interest

:27:16.:27:18.

inquiry is choosing to try to correct the record by speaking to a

:27:19.:27:31.

journalist off the record. It puts you in a position where Helen Boden

:27:32.:27:39.

did tell the Pollard inquiry that she told Mark Thompson the nature of

:27:40.:27:47.

the allegations. I think it puts you in the position where you can't say

:27:48.:27:55.

in print how you know this, but you are watertight on the fact that is

:27:56.:27:59.

the case. There is Pollard confirming to the journalist there

:28:00.:28:05.

was this note from Helen Boden's lawyers, and he goes on to say he

:28:06.:28:09.

personally greats not having included any reference to this

:28:10.:28:17.

letter from the lawyers in the final report. It is a slightly awkward

:28:18.:28:22.

position for me it is something if I had thought about it immediately

:28:23.:28:26.

before publication and picked up on the significance of it, I think I

:28:27.:28:33.

would probably have put it in the report. That is slightly

:28:34.:28:37.

embarrassing, what are the BBC saying? Four trustees today listened

:28:38.:28:41.

to the tape recordings about five minutes long they listened to. They

:28:42.:28:47.

conclude and said while the trustee...

:28:48.:28:56.

They might have thought it would be preferable if Pollard told them the

:28:57.:29:04.

report was wrong before a journalist. What are the questions

:29:05.:29:08.

raised for this? For Poland why didn't he include it in the first

:29:09.:29:16.

place. It doesn't go to the principal underlying conclusion,

:29:17.:29:19.

nothing suggests a conspiracy. All the events, the conversation between

:29:20.:29:23.

Boden and Thomson, if such there was, and if what was said what Boden

:29:24.:29:29.

claims, by Thomson denies, or denies having recollection of it, this all

:29:30.:29:32.

happened after the Newsnight programme had already been canned.

:29:33.:29:37.

None of it predated it all happened afterwards, and it doesn't relate to

:29:38.:29:40.

the underlying thing. There are questions for Pollard, why didn't he

:29:41.:29:43.

include it. Secondly he still maintains and the BBC still maintain

:29:44.:29:48.

that Pollard's report is essentially correct, when he said he had no

:29:49.:29:55.

reason to question Thomson's version of events. Whether Boden is correct

:29:56.:30:02.

or not, the mere fact of the letter to the lawyers was she told him it

:30:03.:30:05.

was about sexual abuse, which Thomson still denies, must raise a

:30:06.:30:09.

doubt about Thomson's version of events. The other question for him

:30:10.:30:13.

is what is he doing talking to a journalist about it, for the BBC,

:30:14.:30:16.

this goes on forever. The first article based on the conversation

:30:17.:30:20.

was published last February, nobody appears to have noticed. The MPs'

:30:21.:30:25.

letters from rod Wilson Tory MP certainly since August, transcript

:30:26.:30:29.

sent to the Trust in September, a recording in November. Here we are

:30:30.:30:33.

mid-December, finally they get round to sorting it out. A another

:30:34.:30:39.

question that sits there both Thomson and Boden can't be both

:30:40.:30:43.

right. It is not the main conclusion but it is a question. Has the

:30:44.:30:48.

journalist to whom Pollard spoke to said anything? We spoke to him

:30:49.:30:52.

today, and I put it to him that nothing in what he had discovered

:30:53.:30:58.

whatever else he said, he maintains there are important questions to be

:30:59.:31:03.

asked still, but he did accept this does not upset Pollard's fundamental

:31:04.:31:07.

conclusion that there was no corporate conspiracy. That is true

:31:08.:31:13.

but he still had the ability to ask questions about what the

:31:14.:31:16.

investigation entailed and who they had spoken to, and he could have

:31:17.:31:21.

prevented in theory the tribute programmes to stop them going out.

:31:22.:31:28.

As traditionally the case, bad luck follows bad luck, today is when the

:31:29.:31:34.

BBC announced the result of its governance review, clarity,

:31:35.:31:38.

accountability and transparency. If this story shows one thing, it may

:31:39.:31:42.

just be bad luck or it may be that the leopard has yet to change its

:31:43.:31:47.

spot It doesn't show transparency, that's for sure. It is three decades

:31:48.:31:52.

since an English judge ruled that Scientology is not a religion but

:31:53.:31:56.

dangerous cult. Yet today the highest court in the land ruled it

:31:57.:32:00.

is a religion and therefore a couple can marry in its called chapel. The

:32:01.:32:06.

organisation founded by a science fiction writer who is said to have

:32:07.:32:09.

decided that the way to get seriously rich is to start a

:32:10.:32:14.

religion and is delighted, as doubtless are his disciples, with

:32:15.:32:24.

the likes of Tom Cruise and others. For a very new fate, Scientology has

:32:25.:32:36.

traditional ideas about a relationship. But, at its new London

:32:37.:32:41.

headquarters the church might have its own chapel, its own ministers,

:32:42.:32:49.

but it has no wedding license. Scientologists have been fighting to

:32:50.:32:52.

use this place for marriages for some time. Back in 1970 the Court of

:32:53.:32:56.

Appeal ruled that Scientology services were not an official act of

:32:57.:32:59.

worship, because they don't involve a recognised God. That clause has

:33:00.:33:03.

been used by officials to stop this place, or church, as the

:33:04.:33:11.

Scientologists would describe it to be used for official wedding

:33:12.:33:15.

ceremonies. Today that changed, the Supreme Court ruled that Louis

:33:16.:33:19.

Hodkin can matter year her Scientologist boyfriend in that

:33:20.:33:23.

chapel. Bringing the law in England and Wales in line with the law in

:33:24.:33:28.

Scotland. The couple plan to tie the knot in spring after an extended

:33:29.:33:33.

engagment. It is similar to most western marriage ceremonies, we have

:33:34.:33:37.

a congregation, there is an aisle, she will stand in a white dress, and

:33:38.:33:40.

we just have our own religious service. But again it is quite

:33:41.:33:45.

normal, you might say, there is still "I dos" and that sort of thing

:33:46.:33:51.

in it. In terms of walking up the aisle? Absolutely, bridesmaids

:33:52.:33:56.

everything. Beginning with the question of whether... Giving his

:33:57.:34:00.

judgment Lord Toulson said the definition of worship as veneration

:34:01.:34:04.

of a supreme being was out of date and any attempts to stop

:34:05.:34:12.

Scientologists marrying in a chapel would amount to religious

:34:13.:34:15.

discrimination. That is good news for the church after a year of bad

:34:16.:34:20.

publicity, linked to the split of poster boy Tom Cruise and his wife

:34:21.:34:26.

Katie Holmes. Critics of Scientology have long argued the religion is

:34:27.:34:29.

nothing more than a cult based on the work of a science fiction

:34:30.:34:33.

writer. There will be plenty of people, and you know there will be,

:34:34.:34:37.

look these two people have been completely brainwashed, that anyone

:34:38.:34:41.

who believes the human race started 75 million years ago when a

:34:42.:34:45.

spaceship came to earth, these people cannot be treated seriously

:34:46.:34:49.

and the fact they are allowed to be married undermines the whole idea of

:34:50.:34:54.

marriage. What is your reaction to those people? I personally don't

:34:55.:34:57.

believe that the human race was started when a spaceship came 75

:34:58.:35:04.

million years ago. That is not Scientologiy teaching? It is not, we

:35:05.:35:09.

believe man is spirit, that is the simplicity, the soul in most

:35:10.:35:11.

religions we consider that to be you. I believe I am myself as

:35:12.:35:15.

spirit, that is actually the essence of Scientology. The church says it

:35:16.:35:22.

now has 8,600 missions in 165 different countries, with 13 centres

:35:23.:35:26.

in the UK, including its headquarters in East Grinstead. The

:35:27.:35:32.

last census shows only 2,418 people identified themselves as

:35:33.:35:37.

Scientologists in England and Wales. Scientologists are treated

:35:38.:35:40.

differently in different countries, in America fairly recently it got

:35:41.:35:46.

tax exempt status, so it is treated as a religion and doesn't pay taxes.

:35:47.:35:50.

In France and Germany it is different. In German if you are a

:35:51.:35:53.

Scientologist you can't work for either the state Government or local

:35:54.:35:57.

Government. You can't even about be a school teacher. In Britain the

:35:58.:36:00.

Supreme Court's decision today, I think it is still up in the air what

:36:01.:36:05.

the reprecussions of this will be. How will it affect tax, rates and

:36:06.:36:10.

all sorts of things, will the Charity Commission make a different

:36:11.:36:13.

decision about how Scientologists will be treated. I mean this case

:36:14.:36:18.

was about us getting married, hi to get the church's support, they have

:36:19.:36:22.

helped us, by west is fantastic, but it is always about the fact we

:36:23.:36:25.

wanted to get married in our church. You have been backed by the church

:36:26.:36:29.

through the whole process? How much have they been telling you what to

:36:30.:36:33.

do how to proceed? It hasn't been the church. Our lawyers, they have

:36:34.:36:39.

been the ones proceeding with all the legal stuff. You have got some

:36:40.:36:43.

high-powered lawyers, how are they being paid for? Well, the church is

:36:44.:36:50.

supporting us in our case. Financially? By paying for your

:36:51.:36:55.

lawyers? Yeah. And by paying for quite expensive PR people to bring

:36:56.:36:59.

you in here today? We wanted help because obviously when we got the PR

:37:00.:37:03.

man came out of the High Court we didn't know what to do, we are just

:37:04.:37:08.

normal people. Ministers are now worried the ruling will open the

:37:09.:37:12.

door to greater recognition of Scientology, with talk of the

:37:13.:37:15.

organisation being able to clawback millions in tax breaks, this might

:37:16.:37:19.

just be one wedding, but the significance could be far greater

:37:20.:37:25.

than that. We asked the representative of the Church of

:37:26.:37:29.

Scientology to join us to discuss today's court ruling but nobody was

:37:30.:37:35.

available. I am joined from Denver by Mark Headily, who came involved

:37:36.:37:40.

in the Church of Scientology when he was seven years old. He spent 15

:37:41.:37:44.

years working at the headquarters in California before turning away from

:37:45.:37:48.

the organisation and campaigning publicly against it. When you were

:37:49.:37:53.

in the Scientologists, did you consider it a religion? It is funny

:37:54.:38:04.

you ask that. In 1953 L Ron Hubbard wrote in a book he did he wrote that

:38:05.:38:10.

Scientology is not a psychotherapy nor a religion. Throughout the years

:38:11.:38:13.

that I worked there, I worked there for 15 years at the international

:38:14.:38:22.

headquarters, it was always a public relations campaign to represent

:38:23.:38:26.

Scientology as a religion, so that there would be, they could play the

:38:27.:38:29.

persecution card or they could get a break on the taxes and even L Ron

:38:30.:38:37.

Hubbard himself in 1962, he wrote "it is entirely a matter for

:38:38.:38:44.

accountants and solicitors" with regards to them being called a

:38:45.:38:49.

religion as opposed to a business or clinic. When you were a

:38:50.:38:52.

Scientologist did you consider it to be a religious experience or a way

:38:53.:38:59.

of belief? No, for my experience in not only being a member of

:39:00.:39:04.

Scientology when I was a child to then becoming a member of the elite

:39:05.:39:13.

organisation called the Corg, which ran Scientology nationally, it

:39:14.:39:16.

really comes off as a business, it is a money-making business. Even the

:39:17.:39:28.

headquarters they are referred to as organisations, we never referred to

:39:29.:39:36.

them as churches I think you have alluded to this already, why is it

:39:37.:39:39.

that the Scientologists themselves want to have their, whatever it is,

:39:40.:39:43.

beliefs system, their organisation considered as a religion I think it

:39:44.:40:00.

is so they can get around the laws or taxes that a normal business has

:40:01.:40:06.

to adhere to. As soon as you play the religion card you are not paying

:40:07.:40:10.

taxes or following the same rules as other organisations, you are

:40:11.:40:14.

basically getting privileges and getting benefits that any other

:40:15.:40:17.

money-making operation would not get. What's the money for? Well

:40:18.:40:25.

that's a really good question, I know when I was there in the early

:40:26.:40:31.

2000s, they built a multimillion dollar mansion for L Ron Hubbard for

:40:32.:40:36.

him to live in when he returned from wherever he went to have in 1986

:40:37.:40:44.

when he passed away. They spent tens of millions of dollars on a new

:40:45.:40:49.

building and new living quarters for the leader, the current leader of

:40:50.:40:53.

the Scientology movement. He does spent a lot of money on motorcycles

:40:54.:40:59.

and motor homes and luxury limousines for himself. I'm not sure

:41:00.:41:04.

besides lavish new buildings that are sitting empty around the world.

:41:05.:41:08.

I'm not sure what they would be spending the money on besides you

:41:09.:41:13.

know personal things. Can I ask you very briefly one question, what did

:41:14.:41:16.

you think when you were a Scientologist, what did you think

:41:17.:41:21.

would happen to you when you died? Well, they tell you that when you

:41:22.:41:29.

die you come back again and even for the C-organisation members, we had

:41:30.:41:33.

to sign one billion-year contracts so that when we died in this

:41:34.:41:36.

lifetime we would still be on the hook to come back and work for them

:41:37.:41:42.

the nice lifetime, so that's actually what they commonly believe,

:41:43.:41:45.

that they will come back again. Thank you. Do you believe what you

:41:46.:41:51.

see on the news? In Britain television news presenters rightly

:41:52.:41:56.

take their place at tables somewhere well below the salt. In the United

:41:57.:42:00.

States they are somewhere between George Washington and Francis of

:42:01.:42:07.

Assisi, the anchorman's world of hair spray and platitude is ripe for

:42:08.:42:11.

parody, and few have done it better than Ron Burgandy and his team of

:42:12.:42:16.

anchormen, among them Steve Carrell. They have been talking to him.

:42:17.:42:21.

Linda, I want to introduce you to Ron Burgandy. Hello Mr Burgandy. Oh,

:42:22.:42:32.

black, you're black. I'm terribly sorry I don't know why I can't stop

:42:33.:42:39.

saying... Black. Is this for real Freddie. Linda I'm sorry. So you

:42:40.:42:43.

have a black boss, and is it freaking you out. Are you freaked

:42:44.:42:50.

out? A little bit, to be honest. She has a knife. I think you scared him,

:42:51.:42:58.

you can't shout at him. Anchormen have provided a rich seam of work

:42:59.:43:02.

for you, why is that? I don't know why, the first news-related thing

:43:03.:43:07.

was a show I did in the states called The Daily Show, a mock news

:43:08.:43:10.

show, and I played a mock reporter, it was essentially a die, a roving

:43:11.:43:18.

reporter that would go out and do these stories that were found by our

:43:19.:43:24.

research department. And I had no experience as a journalist and

:43:25.:43:28.

certainly no right to be doing what I was doing. And none of us did. We

:43:29.:43:34.

were actors and impro-advisers, we were completely -- improvisers, we

:43:35.:43:39.

were completely out of our debt, and we would go out and pretend to be

:43:40.:43:43.

legitimate news people and pull the wool over people's eyes. Do you find

:43:44.:43:48.

our industry slightly ludicrous? I think, yes, and I will say that to

:43:49.:43:53.

your face. I think there is a lot of fodder for comedy, I will put it

:43:54.:44:01.

that way. I think that it can be absurd at times. It is a necessity,

:44:02.:44:05.

and it is something that people, news is something that people need.

:44:06.:44:12.

But I think what, specifically in Anchorman 2, the way the news is

:44:13.:44:17.

depicted it is the advent of 24-hour news, there is a lot of time to

:44:18.:44:21.

fill, and there is a lot of inconsequential news. There is a lot

:44:22.:44:27.

of news that is there only to gain ratings. It sort of pokes fun at

:44:28.:44:32.

that aspect of the news. That it is more corporate controlled. And less

:44:33.:44:39.

about actual newsgathering and more about earning the, you know, the

:44:40.:44:46.

ratings priz You are saying corporate-controlled, we are

:44:47.:44:50.

avoiding the word "Murdoch" I didn't say anything! A stab in the dark

:44:51.:44:56.

here, does it feel like a Fox satire? You know I think the, I

:44:57.:45:02.

can't speak for Adam and Will who wrote the script and the template

:45:03.:45:07.

for certain people in the movie are. I'm sure he was one of the

:45:08.:45:12.

inspirations for the corporate head of this conglomerate that runs this

:45:13.:45:20.

new 24-hour news station. With an Australian sound? It is an homage,

:45:21.:45:24.

nothing more. It is certainly not to take anybody down. Does anybody else

:45:25.:45:30.

speak Australian. Can you I get you to say with me "how bloody are you"!

:45:31.:45:37.

The movie isn't a really harsh indictment of news, but but I think

:45:38.:45:44.

it makes some valid and intelligent points about how news has changed

:45:45.:45:48.

over the years. I want to talk about your character, Brick a -- brick, a

:45:49.:46:00.

bit. He's not quite there. Did you feel uncomfortable at all about

:46:01.:46:04.

getting laughs there are someone who is, the old fashioned word is

:46:05.:46:09.

"retarreded"? I never thought of him that way I thought of him as ernest

:46:10.:46:17.

and childlike. One of the things I like about the group and the four

:46:18.:46:20.

characters together is there is a real affection between them. There

:46:21.:46:23.

is a real support and there is, you know, they look at Brick as a

:46:24.:46:29.

brother and they are there to help and support him as opposed to say

:46:30.:46:36.

anything or make him feel awkward. Brick is liability when it comes to

:46:37.:46:39.

going on air? They are all liabilities, they are all buffoons,

:46:40.:46:42.

that is the other thing. They are all idiots. And so Brick is just

:46:43.:46:49.

sort of the most niave of the bunch. Thank you so much. Time for us to go

:46:50.:46:54.

now, it emerged today that parts of yesterday's memorial event for

:46:55.:46:58.

Nelson Mandela weren't quite what they seemed. Baffled deaf people

:46:59.:47:02.

there are Canada to China are still trying to work out what the supposed

:47:03.:47:06.

sign language interpreter was saying, the organisers are trying to

:47:07.:47:11.

work out who on earth he was. Because whatever he was doing with

:47:12.:47:14.

his arms, according to people who know it, it wasn't sign language. We

:47:15.:47:19.

had no idea either, so we guessed. Good night.

:47:20.:47:24.

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