04/09/2014 Newsnight

Are NATO leaders in South Wales preparing for a new Cold War?

After Afghanistan NATO needs another mission, but a new cold war? Views

on that here seem to depend on how close to Russia you live? The

aggression will be sooner or later on the NATO borders and then it will

be a wider conflict and cost more to be stopped. Now that everybody knows

that the frontline aid worker David Haines is the British hostage under

threat of death at the hands of IS, David Cameron says he's taking

charge of efforts to bring him home alive. What can Britain do? We have

the right policy saying we won't pay ransoms to terrorists who kidnap our

citizens. That is difficult for families when they are the victims

of these terrorists. Meet the Meek family, they have pulled their

children out of school for a year to take them on educational odyssey

around Britain in a caravan. What happens when they go stir crazy?

Good evening, has Vladimir Putin set NATO his biggest test since the end

of the Cold War. While the 18 leaders of the North Atlantic Treaty

Organisation were gathering in Newport, South Wales today,

pro-Russian separatist were advancing on the seaport of Mariupol

with tanks and artillery. The secretary-general of NATO demanded

Moscow withdraw the thousands of troops it has in Ukraine and stop

the flow of arms and funds and troops. Vladimir Putin has raised

the prospect of an imminent ceasefire, who has the whip hand.

Our diplomatic editor is at the summit.

You know when Petro Poroshenko the Ukrainian President came here he

knew already that NATO would offer him very little in terms of firm

military-type support. And that's why earlier this week he seems to

have grasped the nettle of going for this peace negotiation. A

negotiation that many people here regard as extremely unequal and

likely to freeze in the gains of Russian separatist in east Ukraine

and to call into question the integrity and sovereignty of

Ukraine. But long along in this certain countries within the western

alliance, like Germany and Italy have favoured talking over other

more or potentially confrontational-type action, and

that is how it has been here today. That has meant they haven't moved

ahead in offering more assertive type of support to Ukraine and they

haven't put any new sanctions on Russia yet. Although that could

still happen in the coming days. So with those differences of view

that begs the question about whether this threat to Ukraine and the new

assertiveness of Russia, under Mr Putin does give NATO the type of

mission, purpose, it has been looking for, since the end of the

Cold War and whether it is in fact the beginning of what you might call

a new Cold War. Golf courses and weapons of war

don't really mix. But you could do worse if searching for a metaphor,

for an alliance that is trying to get people thinking less about

leisure and more about security. For some of the leaders here the idea of

leisure and more about security. For a second Cold War is not so far

fetched. We will, very often meet Russians in our airspace and we have

to show them that we have capacity like that. We will have, we will

have larger investments especially in the air area. You clearly have

concerns about what Russia is doing right now, do you think those are

shared across the alliance or do you think there is still important

differences for example over Ukraine? I think it is, I think most

NATO countries are now, especially after this summer's shooting down of

the Dutch plane, the Malaysian plane that was shot down, I think it was a

change of tone seeing the aggression, seeing how the

separatist were working. I think the last weeks proved that there are

Russian soldiers inside Ukraine, participating in the fighting. I

think all of this has convinced most NATO countries that the Russian

aggression has to be stopped. There was a demonstration of life-saving

medical skills, learned in the hard school of Afghanistan. A

medical skills, learned in the hard NATO operations and all the horror

they involve has left the alliance weary and perhaps freed it of any

glib notions of war. The end of the Afghan campaign inevitae begs

questions about what NATO is for. NATO was founded in 1949 on the

simple basis that an attack on one would be an attack on all. Since

then it has grown to 28 members, including some of the Republics that

used to be in the Soviet Union. They in particular now argue that Ukraine

has become a test case for a new Russian expansionism that requires

unity and firmness. If we will not stop an agressor in Ukraine the

agressor will sooner or later on our NATO borders, and then it will be

wider to spread conflict and cost a lot more to be stopped. Should

western countries supply Ukraine with weapons? I think that the

Ukraine needs to be supported in all necessary security measures

available and because the nation is united, at least the nation is ready

to go and fight and the history lessons are saying that you never

give in, countries and never give up countries. But even as this summit

was convening it was clear it could offer the Ukrainians money, training

and ration, but no weapons. And while it gave their President a VIP

welcome, it also sent him on his way to peace talks with President Putin

where much may have to be conceded. I think he faces a very difficult

situation, because he's clearly confronted with regular Russian

troops that have invaded his country. And that's why he needs the

support of us, the political support, the sanctions support, the

economic support, because he's taking a beating with the Ukrainian

economy, it is not only military things that count, it is quite a lot

of other things now. What has been striking here today is the countries

that have been most interested in coming out and talking to us are

what you might call Russia's nervous neighbours. Those who think trade

should be disrupted less, or who have perhaps been reluctant to call

events in eastern Ukraine an invasion have been less visible

here. And that hints at divisions in the alliance that have so far

prevented it from getting back to that type of Cold War unity and

common purpose. President Obama left for dinner this evening resisting

the temptation for a spot of putting. He doesn't like talk of a

second Cold War. But it is to America that many nations now look

for leadership as a resurgent Russia unsettles NATO. Joining us now from

Moscow is a former adviser to Boris Yeltsin, and now a director of the

Institute of Democracy and Cooperation think-tank, good

evening. First of all, is Vladimir Putin trying to remake the USSR? It

is absurd to think in these terms, because Vladimir Putin said who

didn't regret the disbandment and the collapse of the Soviet Union. He

didn't have a heart but who is trying to or would like to restore

the Soviet Union doesn't have any mind or brains which means Putin

very clearly formulated his position on this issue. What you But what he

has done so far, and it seems with impunity has annexed Crimea, how

much of Ukraine does he want in a peace deal, does he want eastern

Ukraine, or will Ukraine be allowed to remain within its sovereign

boundaries? You know, we have different narratives from London you

say see the things in one mirror, from Moscow we see in another. It is

not Anwar nextation. In Kiev there was military coup against legitimate

President after which Kiev happened to be in a chaos, collapsed and

under the dominance of extreme nationalists from western parts of

the Ukraine. What business is that of Russia? Legitimate authorities in

Crimea decided that they don't want to live with this and they decided

to organise a referendum and decide their own fate. And nobody

eliminated the rights of the nation for self-determination. That's why,

that's exactly what happened. Does, you talk about Vladimir Putin and

the fact that the west has a different mirror through which to

see things than Russia. Does the west have any influence at all on

Vladimir Putin? The west doesn't have any influence because Russia is

too big to let anybody to have influence over Russia. Can you

believe that somebody has influence over America. If Obama confessed

that anybody had influence the next day he will not be the President of

America. Military, nuclear superpowers can't let anybody to

have influence over him. If Ukraine had already been a member of NATO

and they seek NATO membership, if Ukraine had been a member of NATO,

would Vladimir Putin have got involved sending troops into

Ukraine? Thank God once, even Bush Junior and westerners were smart

enough not to let Georgia to be in NATO and in 2008 that proved

otherwise it could be a catastrophe for the west and for the world. When

Ossett at that was attacked and then there was a peace enforcement on

behalf of Russian forces in Georgia. And now thank God that Ukraine is

not part of NATO because this is the salvation for Ukraine, for the

Europe and the world. Because the people in Ukraine who run the

country they are absolutely irresponsible people. Let's be clear

if Ukraine had been a member of NATO would Vladimir Putin have risked

putting troops into Ukraine? You know you are raising incorrect

questions. Thank God that in Bucharest European, French and

German politicians decided that it is not going to be Georgia and

Ukraine in NATO because this irresponsible people which never had

any experience of statehood they can really create serious danger for the

peace and security in Europe and in the world. And now we are witnessing

exactly what is happening, but the surrounding people are killing their

people, they are using artillery, aviation, multiple rocket launchers

against peaceful population, killing everybody over there and

unfortunately this is the reality. Here in the studio we have the pull

letser prize-winning journalist and author of a number of books on the

history of Russia and the Soviet Union. Has Vladimir Putin got the

whip hand over NATO right now? It is important to understand what Putin's

goal is now, his primary goal is for himself to stay in power. Almost

everything we have seen in the last few months has been part of that

game for him to stay in power. A piece of that means that in order

for him to stay in power he has to prevent the creation of a

democratic, integrated, western Ukraine. Because that would be a

direct challenge to him. A secondary piece of that is he has to undo,

undermine and eventually begin to pull apart the strands of NATO. And

I think that's the game, those are the important questions to ask, is

he succeeding in doing that. Is he. It seems you have the former Baltic

states agitated, much less so than perhaps Italy or Germany or

whatever? Certainly at the start of the crisis there were very deep

divisions among European states. One of the effects of Putin's behaviour

in the last few months, paradoxically, given this is not

what his goal was, has been to bring more people together. Even the

French a couple of days ago withdrew or they announced the postponement

of their sale of warships to Russia. That was unexpected. Simply with

French newspapers and television reporting simply the news from

Ukraine the incursion of Russian troops it became simply too

embarrassing, even for the French President. It is interesting because

two things seem to be happening here, first of all maybe sanctions,

and of course obviously the military sanctions, France not with standing

have just announced, but sanctions are hitting the Russian people. But

it is as if Putin doesn't care, in the sense that this is for Mother

Russia, by the same token he seems to have made himself the embodiment

of Russia? You have pointed to an important point about the crisis and

relevant to Russia and other place, we in the west seem to think the

point of Government is the material well being of people. We argue over

which politician will bring us more wealth. Putin is playing a different

game, he's bringing people power, he's bringing them some kind of

imperial glory. He's really trying to appeal to something very

different and maintain power in a different way. These material

considerations that we care about, Russian food prices have gone up by

4. 5%, seem right now not to be bothering him or anybody else. What

he's saying if you have to suffer for Mother Russia I know you will

suffer with me. That seems to be the line? It has worked before. There

and in other places. Here we have it though, what will happen f there is

this ceasefire, these talks of a ceasefire and the idea that Porter

they are not giving away anything. Will the boundaries of Ukraine

change, and secondly is the President of Lithuania right. If we

don't stop him in Ukraine he will be knocking on Estonia and Latvia's

door? The loonilyic of the crisis would lead us to believe it is

possible. At every point in the crisis he has made a move and waited

and how will the west react. If you are Lithuanian and you are watching

that happening, all you can think is once he has divided Ukraine or

frozen conflict, what is next, Belarus, the Baltic states and who

knows. Are you pest mistic, or having said all this do you think

there is a way of stopping this. Is NATO actually going to act. That is

the point, had Ukraine what would have happened? I still believe if

Ukraine had have been in NATO, which was never on the cards, I still

believe he wouldn't have done T but for that reason it is very important

now that we begin to re-think what NATO is and how it functions. It is

still very bureaucratic, it is very old fashioned and out of date. Its

bases are all in the wrong base. We need to have bases in Lithuania, in

the Baltic states, along the borders which may be the next line of

defence. Thank you very much indeed. The British hostage being held by IS

and who appeared in the latest IS video being warned he will die next

is named as David Haines. He has been involved in frontline aid work

for more than 20 years in areas such as Libya, south Sudan and Syria. It

was in a Syrian refugee camp in March last year he was captured.

Hostages from other countries, including Italy and France, taken by

IS have been released and this morning David Cameron said he was

taking personal charge of efforts to secure David Haines's release. But

tonight at the NATO conference he condemned the payment of ransoms as

utterly self-defeating. What options does the British Government have.

This report contains references to previous hostage situations. This is

David Haines, he has been a hostage for 18 months. His life is now in

the hands of terrorists. His fate seemingly beyond the reach of his

family and his Government. His might conjures memories of Terry

Waite and John McCarthy, British hostage held captive in a different

time. 30 years ago they were household names. Their families

tried everything, including fundraising evenings to get them

released. There were appeals direct to the kidnappers. I appeal to you,

whoever you are, in this holy month of Ramadan, the month of blessings

and charity, to release my son John McCarthy and return him to his

mother and father who miss him a very great deal. 25 years ago

diplomats made public pleas. I would appeal to all those who have

knowledge of them... This time they and the family sought a media

blackout. Only when his name was circulated so widely on social media

did most news organisations, including the BBC, feel it untenable

to withhold it. This is Alastair Burt arriving for Cobra meeting.

Until last year he was the minister overseeing hostage situation. The

best advice we get is there should be as little information release as

possible. I think there has been a realisation that the media is not

campaigning with those who are holding them to release them.

Because the people are not going to respond to that. Captors of a

hostage will release them when it suits them and they will deal with

them otherwise when it suits them. I think they have no interest

whatsoever in what anyone else may be saying and will use the media for

their own purposes. The judgment of the British Government is that

publicity can actually make things much worse. If hostages become

high-profile it may encourage the kidnappers to sell them on to even

more dangerous groups, they in turn ask for higher ransoms. All of which

can make potential rescues even more difficult.

Earlier this year France denied paying a ransom to release these

journalists held hostage in Syria. But they have done it before, and it

is this that infuriates Britain. We don't pay. Tonight at the NATO

summit, David Cameron was haranguing countries that do. That money goes

into arms, it goes into weapons, it goes into terror plots, it goes into

more kidnaps, it is utterly self-defeating, it is worse, it is

actually a risk to us back at home. A New York Times analysis of

reported hostage takings by Al-Qaeda and affiliates since 2009 suggests

terrorists may be targeting by nationality. It may deter British

people from being kidnapped in the first place, but doesn't it

therefore make it much more difficult for us to get them back

once they have been taken? This is an impossible dilemma, because how

do you weigh up the benefits to citizens in the United Kingdom in

not being targets of kidnapping, because the kidnappers know they

won't get anything for it against the risk to individuals. Terry Waite

is a reminder that hostages can come home. But times have changed and so

have the terrorists. The true scale of the number of

military veterans suffering from PTSD, post drawatic stress disorder

has never been quantified or properly recognised. After recent

conflicts, including Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Iraq and

Afghanistan, increasing numbers are searching for help to stop it

destroying their lives and the lives of their families. That help is not

sufficient to the task in every days. Sometimes it takes years for

PTSD to emerge, often in the form of flashbacks, veterans feel they are

experiencing the battle over and over again. Fiona Lloyd-Davies's

husband sustained PTSD from the height of the war in Bosnia in 1992.

After he failed to find help she decided to investigate, and this is

what she found. I can see the blood, I can see the injured guys, I can

hear the noises. You are there again, you smell it. The last four

years around about 32 hospitalisations via 999 calls. The

NHS experience for me has been a complete snakes and ladders game of

revolving doors. Our life completely revolves on PTSD. If we're not

fighting the PTSD on a daily basis then we're fighting to get services.

All over Britain behind closed doors families are having to endure the

daily torture of seeing their loved ones battle with post-traumatic

stress disorder. They tell us they are struggling to find treatment and

it is ruining their lives. In Liverpool, Sue started a group to

support wives like her, whose husbands and partners are suffering

from post-traumatic stress disorder after serving in the forces. It has

just got worse and worse and worse. He has different stages all the

time. One minute he it be, you can see the change in his eyes, he can

be like the devil. PTSD, as it is known, is thought to affect roughly

7,000 people in the Armed Forces. What we don't know is how many

veterans are suffering with it because there has never been a

comprehensive study. When I got home the police were at the house and he

was already in the back of the police van and a lovely policeman

that had actually served came up to me and he said to me he doesn't need

to be in a cell, needs a hospital doesn't he. I said, yeah he does.

Sue's husband had done 13 tours of Northern Ireland in six years and

was invalided out of the army with physical injuries. Once he had left

he was under the care of the NHS and a growing charity sector. We had two

years of what they call a revolving door admission, my husband would be

in hospital for six weeks then home for a couple of weeks, another

flashback would be triggered, the police would come out, they would

slap him back in hospital, they would keep him on the ward for

another six weeks and then send him home. Some veterans are getting the

treatment they need, but those like Sue's husband, who are the most

acute, and others, the majority with associated addictions such as

alcohol and drugs, are struggling. Until he retired this year Dr Kerin

Fletcher was one of the only two NHS psychiatrists who specialised in

both trauma and addictions. The National Health Service the level of

trauma training is very poor, and it is unusual for doctors, even

psychiatrists to get particular training in treating people with

psychological trauma. When I flashback and I collapse, very good

chance that I have a stroke, which would be catastrophic. My cupboard

now contains antidepressants. Sodium to stop me fitting and more

importantly if I do fit they stop me, or will help to stop me having a

stroke. At least two-thirds of veterans suffering from PTSD use

alcohol because of their condition. Dave is one of them. One will always

go with the other, I don't drink normally, it is only if I say I have

been suffering three, four, five days on the trot, no sleep,

flashback, nightmares, I'm going crazy out of my mind, then I will

start drinking because it will persuade me after a litre of Vodka,

like a pint or two for people, it calms me down. People who take

alcohol are actually in that context completely misunderstood, because

they are regarded as people who could stop it if they wanted to.

That they are doing it to self-medicate consciously, they are

not. They in fact are doing it because they unconsciously need to

have the endorphins to be able to make themselves feel reasonably

normal. Dave was finally diagnosed with PTSD in 2007 and spent nearly a

year in a clinic. For a while things were better, but his PTSD returned

way it his need for alcohol. When you fix the PTSD the people don't

need to have those particular substances. So to entirely divorce

addictions as being a sort of chemical consequence of having PTSD

and treat that as a separate entity all together misses the point.

Because the PTSD is the driving force behind it, you have to take it

into account. We don't have any services in the UK where a

significant level of alcohol dependence and a significant level

of psychological trauma can be treated together. So you have this

dreadful situation where the chances of you being able to get the

treatment you need are extremely low. The NHS, as good as they are,

they have saved my life a couple of times at least. But they have to

keep referring me to combat stress, and combass stress is a small

charitable organisation. There is thousands of us. Veterans like Les

can also receive treatment from the charity sector, either directly or

via the NHS. It is led by Combat Stress, which receives 40% of

funding from the Government. It was set up in 1919 to help soldiers

suffering from shell shock, and over the last 95 years has developed a

range of treatments and services. The number of veterans contacting

them is steadily increasing and last year over 1,000 veterans were

admitted for residential treatment. They have also established a

six-week intensive treatment programme. Les was accepted on to it

in November 2012. It was more group therapy than individual therapy. And

group therapy you know didn't help me much. Combat Stress says the

programme is showing good results and it helps approximately 200

people each year. But the veterans we have spoken to, like Les, have

criticisms. I just couldn't take it all in. As I say, after the first

three weeks I didn't want to go back. And while I was there all the

little boxes were opened up again. They gave us the tools to close

them, but it didn't work. So I left there feeling pretty much worse than

I was when I got there. I came back and for the first three weeks I

didn't leave my house. I don't know who Compat Stress sent me, it wasn't

my husband. They destroyed him. They absolutely tore him apart. The first

four weeks I don't think I slept in our bed, two particular nights. Can

you describe why? He was having nightmares, and these were the worst

I have ever seen. Previously before he went in, I don't know if you

actually know this, but before the arm would come across, his whole

body would tense up. I had no warning after he came out of Combat

Stress until I felt with his first or his elbow or his head. He put his

hand around my throat and squeezed and he has never done that before.

Others also had concerns about the course, Dr Fletcher resigned from

Combat Stress last year after working there for nearly two

decades. You don't ever, ever get people out of a deeply ingrained

disorder in the space of a single six-week episode of treatment. You

need continuing care, repeated episodes of treatment and so on.

Combat Stress offer follow-up sessions, three, six and 12 months

after their intensive treatment programme. You worked at Combat

Stress for nearly 20 years and you left last year, can you tell us what

led you to resign? I think clinical exasperation is the reason that I

left. I was also discouraged by the managerial pressures to push people

through groups that I didn't think were sometimes fit for purpose. And

the degree of managerial influence over clinical decision making so,

because I'm old and tired I decided to leave rather than stay with those

frustrations. Les did find alternative treatment from several

different charities and he's now able to leave the house and lead a

more normal life. Dave Salt has previously been to Combat Stress

three times and was accepted on to their six-week intensive treatment

programme. Under the condition that he stays alcohol-free for three

months. But because he's failed this criteria he won't be allowed on to

the course at the moment. We're talking my life, it gets very

serious. My body won't take any more alcohol, any more poise sin, and --

poise sin, and you become suicidal, when you are that low it is death.

You are Dead Man Walking, you won't see old age. What they have been

through is appalling and they have done it for their country and the

impact of PTSD and alcohol dependence on their lives is so

appalling you would thought a small degree of priority to be given to

this severely affected group and it is not being given and it should be

given. That's why it is essential to

preplan that safety plan if you need to escape the house and have it set

in your mind and have code words for the kids. Even our dog knows if I

say "here now", the dog comes running and we're out the door. It

is madness, isn't it. For Sue and her group, they want to find help

for their husbands now. Yet for the vast majority of veterans, those who

have acute PTSD and those who use alcohol or drugs because of it, they

are struggling to find the treatment they need when they need it most.

When my husband was injured serving in the army I thought he was gone. I

was told he wasn't gone, and I was assured that due to the Military

Covenant ourselves, my husband, myself, my family would get any

required medical care and any required financial care that he

needed for life, for having done his duty, for having made sure the

people of this country were protected. This isn't happening and

it is not happening in a lot of households across the country. We

asked for an interview with someone from the health service in England

but no-one was available. But the NHS gave us the following statement.

"NHS England recognises there is significant room for improvement...

We have the director of medical services at Combat Stress, we will

come on to the specific which is are being directed towards Combat

Stress. On the general point do you accept that provision is limited to

veterans? Provision has improved over the last seven-and-a-half years

since I joined the charity, it is better than it was. It needs to grow

further. I would accept more can be done. Some veterans that we spoke to

had found that the treatment by Combat Stress had actually made

their condition worse rather than better, it doesn't work for all

people? Treatment doesn't work for all people. Having said that I was

concerned to see the film and of course I will look at each

individual case as best I can and try to put things right for them. It

seemed to me that treatment could be stopped half way through or people

didn't engage fully. But a lot of the treatments we do have do work.

The difficulty is always about engaging the individual into the

treatment pathway and keeping him there. Two things, both Dr Fletcher

and Professor Turnball talked about the dual nature of the condition,

both alcohol and PTSD, and what the professor seemed to be saying is

there is a misuning it is not an alcohol dependence but a need for a

kick in the endorphin, dealing with alcohol first or demanding a

three-month withdrawal period before the six-week programme is

counter-productive? It is very difficult to know precisely what

will work for each individual. Each individual needs a tailor-made plan

and that is what we try to do. At the front end of a clinical pathway

we assess their needs and if they have alcohol or drug problems, now

they are rolling out an alcohol service management in the community

which means we would allow the individual to access a local

statutory service to have their des to go and then case manage them back

to a treatment to deal with the mental health problems as quickly as

possible. What the doctors seem to be saying is actually the des to go

is impossible, the two things are so interlinked there is no service that

deals both with the trauma and the alcohol together that actually what

happens is some veterans are barred from the programme because they

can't deal with the drug and alcohol? The main issue about our

six week programme is it does mean a lot of trauma-focussed and cognitive

behaviour therapy, so you have psychotherapy to confront the

horrible things you have been through, we have to have you in the

room to do that. If you are drinking before and after it won't work. It

is a big dilemma we want them treated as soon as practicable. Then

you have the case there of treated as soon as practicable. Then

who said what happened was he came to the programme and got the tool

box in order to help but couldn't close that box. What he seemed to be

saying was that the six-week programme is really not sufficient

to the task? Well the issue, I can't discuss the individual case because

I don't know the details. But the fact is we have treated around 477

patients through the six-week programmes, and the outcome is good.

The programme was devised in Australia where it treated 4,000

veterans with serious PTSD, severe PTSD and passed problems with

alcohol that were stable and their outcomes were about 70% that one

year follow up did well. Two-thirds have these alcohol and drug-related

issues as well with PTSD. For some that six-week programme when I say

it hasn't worked, you heard families there saying that actually their

partners or husband came out in a sense a worse state because they

found they were uncontrollable violence and so forth. Presumably as

Combat Stress increases its own expertise that actually you might

consider changing that programme? The programme will evolve and get

better, that is my observation about it. But at the moment the evidence

so far is that the outcomes are better than the Australian outcomes.

We are benchmarked by the Australian veterans' mental health leads. We

are benchmarked every year, we submit quarterly reports to the NHS.

We have very high satisfaction and exit rates that are independently

scrutinised of the veterans that attend. There are a lot of veterans

who have benefitted tremenduously, life-changing benefits from the

programme. Thank you very much indeed. It is back to school time,

parents can heave a sigh of relief. But not one very dedicated or

perhaps crazy family, the Meeks, parents Tim and Kerry and daughters

Amy and Ella have embarked on an epic year-long education road tripe

around the UK. Often dovetailing their curriculum of everything from

maths to bush skills with Radio 4's timetable, anything from Thought for

the Day to Moral Maze, travelling with a caravan, they limbered up by

setting the girls 100 challenges to achieve in a year. They recorded it

all. Here is a flavour of their ideal of informal learning. One of

our changes we have been told to name our caravan and to record the

places it visits, we have named it Ellie.

Well I'm now going in to meet the Meek family in their shiny caravan,

the girls have obviously been allowed to stay up very late tonight

to watch Newsnight. Good evening all of you. Hello. This is an adventure.

Tell me first of all why have you taken them out of primary school?

Well we spent a lot of time in the last year doing 100 adventures

together when the chance to win a caravan came up we thought it was

the perfect opportunity to try to make more of that and exploit the

opportunities to teach our own children for a year. Do you think

though that as a teacher yourself you can often the children something

special or do you think anybody could do this, it is a huge risk? We

have an advantage because we're teachers and that we know what

schools teach. But I don't think you need to be a teacher. I think a

parent knows their child better than anyone else. And they should be able

to give them enough of a wide curriculum, with home schooling

there isn't a set curriculum, you can teach them what you want and

they can follow their interests. So did you have a hand in this or was

this handed down to you, you will go away from school for a year or it

was a decision you were involved in Amy? We were involved in it, it

wasn't just the parents say we are taking you out of school now. We

were involved in the decision and we were eager to do it as well. We

enjoyed school but this is a new opportunity and we are eager for new

opportunities. I hear you are going to do things by Radio 4, do you

Lizzen to Moral Maze is that one of the things you are listening to?

Things on Radio 4. Do you listen to the Archers? Maybe. What about you,

Ella, did you not worry about leaving all your friends and being

stuck with the family for a year? Yes but we are keeping in contact on

Skype. Last night I went on Skype with one of my best friends and also

we're going to go Nottingham where all our friends are this weekend to

see them. Also we're not just lonely because we're on caravan sites with

lots of friends that we meet. So you are meeting lots and lots of people.

What kind of things, you have just started on this, I know you did the

big challenge this year, you have only been on the road for four days.

What have you learned so far. Tell me something unusual you have

learned? Well we have been to Warwick Castle and we have learned

lots of things from there, but probably the most exciting thing

that we learned there was the, what's it called? The trebouchet

where it fired things like fireballs miles away. You learned about that

and you might not have learned about that in school? No, probably not.

What happens when you have done this for a year. You sold your house, you

don't know where you are going to land up, and presumably at some

point you will need to make a decision whether the girls will go

back to school or back to... Also the financial reason as well. We

have sold our house and given up our jobs and we have allocated an amount

of money to survive on for a year. The answer to that is there isn't an

answer really it is an open book. We are hopefully going to see if we can

extend it further f we can't there is always the option of taking them

back to school. What tell me beyond the curriculum and you both know the

curriculum as teachers, what are you teaching them, what are you giving

them that the school can't give them? I have always thought than I

formal learning is underrated. Learning isn't formalised and sat at

a table, but learning outside. Multisensory learning, being able to

design a curriculum we think is tailor-made for our children and

adapt is where they want to take it within reason. Very briefly, what

happens when you all fall out and you think I have been with mum and

dad far too much? Sometimes we might just close the divider that's there

and sit in our bed for a while, thinking gosh, but we get over it

and have a great time. We haven't had too many scuffles. Good luck to

you. Make sure you get no problems with the caravan and you have a

wonderful trip. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. We finish

tonight, she was the Queen of the one liner, she had an acid wit and

she often turned that wit on everybody including herself. Joan

Rivers died at the age of 81. She joked when she got to the pearly

gates the chances are God wouldn't recognise her because she had so

much plastic surgery. Here she is in incomparable form, good night. Take

your time, what are you using? Tell me? Excuse me, we are going to be

very adult tonight, Dr Ruth out here, we are talking adult level,

what are you using for contraception? Are you using

something? Does it look round? Had (laughter) because you also put make

up on with it because that would be the sponge or something really

stupid you could take a pill and go like that. See you are taking the

pill, just curious, people get so testy these day, I was taking the

pill but I was putting it in the wrong place so I had my kid!

pill but I was putting it in the wrong place so I had my kid! Good

evening, let's see what is happening on the weather front for the final

day of the working week for most of us. We have some rain to