Browse content similar to 04/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Are NATO leaders in South Wales preparing for a new Cold War? | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
After Afghanistan NATO needs another mission, but a new cold war? Views | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
on that here seem to depend on how close to Russia you live? The | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
aggression will be sooner or later on the NATO borders and then it will | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
be a wider conflict and cost more to be stopped. Now that everybody knows | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
that the frontline aid worker David Haines is the British hostage under | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
threat of death at the hands of IS, David Cameron says he's taking | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
charge of efforts to bring him home alive. What can Britain do? We have | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
the right policy saying we won't pay ransoms to terrorists who kidnap our | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
citizens. That is difficult for families when they are the victims | :00:55. | :01:02. | |
of these terrorists. Meet the Meek family, they have pulled their | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
children out of school for a year to take them on educational odyssey | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
around Britain in a caravan. What happens when they go stir crazy? | :01:10. | :01:22. | |
Good evening, has Vladimir Putin set NATO his biggest test since the end | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
of the Cold War. While the 18 leaders of the North Atlantic Treaty | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
Organisation were gathering in Newport, South Wales today, | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
pro-Russian separatist were advancing on the seaport of Mariupol | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
with tanks and artillery. The secretary-general of NATO demanded | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
Moscow withdraw the thousands of troops it has in Ukraine and stop | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
the flow of arms and funds and troops. Vladimir Putin has raised | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
the prospect of an imminent ceasefire, who has the whip hand. | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
Our diplomatic editor is at the summit. | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
You know when Petro Poroshenko the Ukrainian President came here he | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
knew already that NATO would offer him very little in terms of firm | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
military-type support. And that's why earlier this week he seems to | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
have grasped the nettle of going for this peace negotiation. A | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
negotiation that many people here regard as extremely unequal and | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
likely to freeze in the gains of Russian separatist in east Ukraine | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
and to call into question the integrity and sovereignty of | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
Ukraine. But long along in this certain countries within the western | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
alliance, like Germany and Italy have favoured talking over other | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
more or potentially confrontational-type action, and | :02:44. | :02:45. | |
that is how it has been here today. That has meant they haven't moved | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
ahead in offering more assertive type of support to Ukraine and they | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
haven't put any new sanctions on Russia yet. Although that could | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
still happen in the coming days. So with those differences of view | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
that begs the question about whether this threat to Ukraine and the new | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
assertiveness of Russia, under Mr Putin does give NATO the type of | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
mission, purpose, it has been looking for, since the end of the | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
Cold War and whether it is in fact the beginning of what you might call | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
a new Cold War. Golf courses and weapons of war | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
don't really mix. But you could do worse if searching for a metaphor, | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
for an alliance that is trying to get people thinking less about | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
leisure and more about security. For some of the leaders here the idea of | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
leisure and more about security. For a second Cold War is not so far | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
fetched. We will, very often meet Russians in our airspace and we have | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
to show them that we have capacity like that. We will have, we will | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
have larger investments especially in the air area. You clearly have | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
concerns about what Russia is doing right now, do you think those are | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
shared across the alliance or do you think there is still important | :04:06. | :04:07. | |
differences for example over Ukraine? I think it is, I think most | :04:08. | :04:15. | |
NATO countries are now, especially after this summer's shooting down of | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
the Dutch plane, the Malaysian plane that was shot down, I think it was a | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
change of tone seeing the aggression, seeing how the | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
separatist were working. I think the last weeks proved that there are | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
Russian soldiers inside Ukraine, participating in the fighting. I | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
think all of this has convinced most NATO countries that the Russian | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
aggression has to be stopped. There was a demonstration of life-saving | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
medical skills, learned in the hard school of Afghanistan. A | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
medical skills, learned in the hard NATO operations and all the horror | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
they involve has left the alliance weary and perhaps freed it of any | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
glib notions of war. The end of the Afghan campaign inevitae begs | :05:09. | :05:16. | |
questions about what NATO is for. NATO was founded in 1949 on the | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
simple basis that an attack on one would be an attack on all. Since | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
then it has grown to 28 members, including some of the Republics that | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
used to be in the Soviet Union. They in particular now argue that Ukraine | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
has become a test case for a new Russian expansionism that requires | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
unity and firmness. If we will not stop an agressor in Ukraine the | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
agressor will sooner or later on our NATO borders, and then it will be | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
wider to spread conflict and cost a lot more to be stopped. Should | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
western countries supply Ukraine with weapons? I think that the | :05:58. | :06:05. | |
Ukraine needs to be supported in all necessary security measures | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
available and because the nation is united, at least the nation is ready | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
to go and fight and the history lessons are saying that you never | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
give in, countries and never give up countries. But even as this summit | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
was convening it was clear it could offer the Ukrainians money, training | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
and ration, but no weapons. And while it gave their President a VIP | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
welcome, it also sent him on his way to peace talks with President Putin | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
where much may have to be conceded. I think he faces a very difficult | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
situation, because he's clearly confronted with regular Russian | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
troops that have invaded his country. And that's why he needs the | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
support of us, the political support, the sanctions support, the | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
economic support, because he's taking a beating with the Ukrainian | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
economy, it is not only military things that count, it is quite a lot | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
of other things now. What has been striking here today is the countries | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
that have been most interested in coming out and talking to us are | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
what you might call Russia's nervous neighbours. Those who think trade | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
should be disrupted less, or who have perhaps been reluctant to call | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
events in eastern Ukraine an invasion have been less visible | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
here. And that hints at divisions in the alliance that have so far | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
prevented it from getting back to that type of Cold War unity and | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
common purpose. President Obama left for dinner this evening resisting | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
the temptation for a spot of putting. He doesn't like talk of a | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
second Cold War. But it is to America that many nations now look | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
for leadership as a resurgent Russia unsettles NATO. Joining us now from | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
Moscow is a former adviser to Boris Yeltsin, and now a director of the | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
Institute of Democracy and Cooperation think-tank, good | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
evening. First of all, is Vladimir Putin trying to remake the USSR? It | :08:04. | :08:14. | |
is absurd to think in these terms, because Vladimir Putin said who | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
didn't regret the disbandment and the collapse of the Soviet Union. He | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
didn't have a heart but who is trying to or would like to restore | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
the Soviet Union doesn't have any mind or brains which means Putin | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
very clearly formulated his position on this issue. What you But what he | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
has done so far, and it seems with impunity has annexed Crimea, how | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
much of Ukraine does he want in a peace deal, does he want eastern | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
Ukraine, or will Ukraine be allowed to remain within its sovereign | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
boundaries? You know, we have different narratives from London you | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
say see the things in one mirror, from Moscow we see in another. It is | :09:04. | :09:12. | |
not Anwar nextation. In Kiev there was military coup against legitimate | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
President after which Kiev happened to be in a chaos, collapsed and | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
under the dominance of extreme nationalists from western parts of | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
the Ukraine. What business is that of Russia? Legitimate authorities in | :09:31. | :09:39. | |
Crimea decided that they don't want to live with this and they decided | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
to organise a referendum and decide their own fate. And nobody | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
eliminated the rights of the nation for self-determination. That's why, | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
that's exactly what happened. Does, you talk about Vladimir Putin and | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
the fact that the west has a different mirror through which to | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
see things than Russia. Does the west have any influence at all on | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
Vladimir Putin? The west doesn't have any influence because Russia is | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
too big to let anybody to have influence over Russia. Can you | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
believe that somebody has influence over America. If Obama confessed | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
that anybody had influence the next day he will not be the President of | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
America. Military, nuclear superpowers can't let anybody to | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
have influence over him. If Ukraine had already been a member of NATO | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
and they seek NATO membership, if Ukraine had been a member of NATO, | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
would Vladimir Putin have got involved sending troops into | :10:50. | :11:01. | |
Ukraine? Thank God once, even Bush Junior and westerners were smart | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
enough not to let Georgia to be in NATO and in 2008 that proved | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
otherwise it could be a catastrophe for the west and for the world. When | :11:12. | :11:22. | |
Ossett at that was attacked and then there was a peace enforcement on | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
behalf of Russian forces in Georgia. And now thank God that Ukraine is | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
not part of NATO because this is the salvation for Ukraine, for the | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
Europe and the world. Because the people in Ukraine who run the | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
country they are absolutely irresponsible people. Let's be clear | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
if Ukraine had been a member of NATO would Vladimir Putin have risked | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
putting troops into Ukraine? You know you are raising incorrect | :11:59. | :12:08. | |
questions. Thank God that in Bucharest European, French and | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
German politicians decided that it is not going to be Georgia and | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
Ukraine in NATO because this irresponsible people which never had | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
any experience of statehood they can really create serious danger for the | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
peace and security in Europe and in the world. And now we are witnessing | :12:31. | :12:41. | |
exactly what is happening, but the surrounding people are killing their | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
people, they are using artillery, aviation, multiple rocket launchers | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
against peaceful population, killing everybody over there and | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
unfortunately this is the reality. Here in the studio we have the pull | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
letser prize-winning journalist and author of a number of books on the | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
history of Russia and the Soviet Union. Has Vladimir Putin got the | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
whip hand over NATO right now? It is important to understand what Putin's | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
goal is now, his primary goal is for himself to stay in power. Almost | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
everything we have seen in the last few months has been part of that | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
game for him to stay in power. A piece of that means that in order | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
for him to stay in power he has to prevent the creation of a | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
democratic, integrated, western Ukraine. Because that would be a | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
direct challenge to him. A secondary piece of that is he has to undo, | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
undermine and eventually begin to pull apart the strands of NATO. And | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
I think that's the game, those are the important questions to ask, is | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
he succeeding in doing that. Is he. It seems you have the former Baltic | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
states agitated, much less so than perhaps Italy or Germany or | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
whatever? Certainly at the start of the crisis there were very deep | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
divisions among European states. One of the effects of Putin's behaviour | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
in the last few months, paradoxically, given this is not | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
what his goal was, has been to bring more people together. Even the | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
French a couple of days ago withdrew or they announced the postponement | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
of their sale of warships to Russia. That was unexpected. Simply with | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
French newspapers and television reporting simply the news from | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
Ukraine the incursion of Russian troops it became simply too | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
embarrassing, even for the French President. It is interesting because | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
two things seem to be happening here, first of all maybe sanctions, | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
and of course obviously the military sanctions, France not with standing | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
have just announced, but sanctions are hitting the Russian people. But | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
it is as if Putin doesn't care, in the sense that this is for Mother | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
Russia, by the same token he seems to have made himself the embodiment | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
of Russia? You have pointed to an important point about the crisis and | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
relevant to Russia and other place, we in the west seem to think the | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
point of Government is the material well being of people. We argue over | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
which politician will bring us more wealth. Putin is playing a different | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
game, he's bringing people power, he's bringing them some kind of | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
imperial glory. He's really trying to appeal to something very | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
different and maintain power in a different way. These material | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
considerations that we care about, Russian food prices have gone up by | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
4. 5%, seem right now not to be bothering him or anybody else. What | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
he's saying if you have to suffer for Mother Russia I know you will | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
suffer with me. That seems to be the line? It has worked before. There | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
and in other places. Here we have it though, what will happen f there is | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
this ceasefire, these talks of a ceasefire and the idea that Porter | :15:45. | :15:52. | |
they are not giving away anything. Will the boundaries of Ukraine | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
change, and secondly is the President of Lithuania right. If we | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
don't stop him in Ukraine he will be knocking on Estonia and Latvia's | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
door? The loonilyic of the crisis would lead us to believe it is | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
possible. At every point in the crisis he has made a move and waited | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
and how will the west react. If you are Lithuanian and you are watching | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
that happening, all you can think is once he has divided Ukraine or | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
frozen conflict, what is next, Belarus, the Baltic states and who | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
knows. Are you pest mistic, or having said all this do you think | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
there is a way of stopping this. Is NATO actually going to act. That is | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
the point, had Ukraine what would have happened? I still believe if | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
Ukraine had have been in NATO, which was never on the cards, I still | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
believe he wouldn't have done T but for that reason it is very important | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
now that we begin to re-think what NATO is and how it functions. It is | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
still very bureaucratic, it is very old fashioned and out of date. Its | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
bases are all in the wrong base. We need to have bases in Lithuania, in | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
the Baltic states, along the borders which may be the next line of | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
defence. Thank you very much indeed. The British hostage being held by IS | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
and who appeared in the latest IS video being warned he will die next | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
is named as David Haines. He has been involved in frontline aid work | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
for more than 20 years in areas such as Libya, south Sudan and Syria. It | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
was in a Syrian refugee camp in March last year he was captured. | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
Hostages from other countries, including Italy and France, taken by | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
IS have been released and this morning David Cameron said he was | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
taking personal charge of efforts to secure David Haines's release. But | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
tonight at the NATO conference he condemned the payment of ransoms as | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
utterly self-defeating. What options does the British Government have. | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
This report contains references to previous hostage situations. This is | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
David Haines, he has been a hostage for 18 months. His life is now in | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
the hands of terrorists. His fate seemingly beyond the reach of his | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
family and his Government. His might conjures memories of Terry | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
Waite and John McCarthy, British hostage held captive in a different | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
time. 30 years ago they were household names. Their families | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
tried everything, including fundraising evenings to get them | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
released. There were appeals direct to the kidnappers. I appeal to you, | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
whoever you are, in this holy month of Ramadan, the month of blessings | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
and charity, to release my son John McCarthy and return him to his | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
mother and father who miss him a very great deal. 25 years ago | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
diplomats made public pleas. I would appeal to all those who have | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
knowledge of them... This time they and the family sought a media | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
blackout. Only when his name was circulated so widely on social media | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
did most news organisations, including the BBC, feel it untenable | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
to withhold it. This is Alastair Burt arriving for Cobra meeting. | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
Until last year he was the minister overseeing hostage situation. The | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
best advice we get is there should be as little information release as | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
possible. I think there has been a realisation that the media is not | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
campaigning with those who are holding them to release them. | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
Because the people are not going to respond to that. Captors of a | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
hostage will release them when it suits them and they will deal with | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
them otherwise when it suits them. I think they have no interest | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
whatsoever in what anyone else may be saying and will use the media for | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
their own purposes. The judgment of the British Government is that | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
publicity can actually make things much worse. If hostages become | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
high-profile it may encourage the kidnappers to sell them on to even | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
more dangerous groups, they in turn ask for higher ransoms. All of which | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
can make potential rescues even more difficult. | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
Earlier this year France denied paying a ransom to release these | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
journalists held hostage in Syria. But they have done it before, and it | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
is this that infuriates Britain. We don't pay. Tonight at the NATO | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
summit, David Cameron was haranguing countries that do. That money goes | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
into arms, it goes into weapons, it goes into terror plots, it goes into | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
more kidnaps, it is utterly self-defeating, it is worse, it is | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
actually a risk to us back at home. A New York Times analysis of | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
reported hostage takings by Al-Qaeda and affiliates since 2009 suggests | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
terrorists may be targeting by nationality. It may deter British | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
people from being kidnapped in the first place, but doesn't it | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
therefore make it much more difficult for us to get them back | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
once they have been taken? This is an impossible dilemma, because how | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
do you weigh up the benefits to citizens in the United Kingdom in | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
not being targets of kidnapping, because the kidnappers know they | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
won't get anything for it against the risk to individuals. Terry Waite | :21:18. | :21:28. | |
is a reminder that hostages can come home. But times have changed and so | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
have the terrorists. The true scale of the number of | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
military veterans suffering from PTSD, post drawatic stress disorder | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
has never been quantified or properly recognised. After recent | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
conflicts, including Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Iraq and | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
Afghanistan, increasing numbers are searching for help to stop it | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
destroying their lives and the lives of their families. That help is not | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
sufficient to the task in every days. Sometimes it takes years for | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
PTSD to emerge, often in the form of flashbacks, veterans feel they are | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
experiencing the battle over and over again. Fiona Lloyd-Davies's | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
husband sustained PTSD from the height of the war in Bosnia in 1992. | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
After he failed to find help she decided to investigate, and this is | :22:24. | :22:32. | |
what she found. I can see the blood, I can see the injured guys, I can | :22:33. | :22:42. | |
hear the noises. You are there again, you smell it. The last four | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
years around about 32 hospitalisations via 999 calls. The | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
NHS experience for me has been a complete snakes and ladders game of | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
revolving doors. Our life completely revolves on PTSD. If we're not | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
fighting the PTSD on a daily basis then we're fighting to get services. | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
All over Britain behind closed doors families are having to endure the | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
daily torture of seeing their loved ones battle with post-traumatic | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
stress disorder. They tell us they are struggling to find treatment and | :23:22. | :23:30. | |
it is ruining their lives. In Liverpool, Sue started a group to | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
support wives like her, whose husbands and partners are suffering | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
from post-traumatic stress disorder after serving in the forces. It has | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
just got worse and worse and worse. He has different stages all the | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
time. One minute he it be, you can see the change in his eyes, he can | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
be like the devil. PTSD, as it is known, is thought to affect roughly | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
7,000 people in the Armed Forces. What we don't know is how many | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
veterans are suffering with it because there has never been a | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
comprehensive study. When I got home the police were at the house and he | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
was already in the back of the police van and a lovely policeman | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
that had actually served came up to me and he said to me he doesn't need | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
to be in a cell, needs a hospital doesn't he. I said, yeah he does. | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
Sue's husband had done 13 tours of Northern Ireland in six years and | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
was invalided out of the army with physical injuries. Once he had left | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
he was under the care of the NHS and a growing charity sector. We had two | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
years of what they call a revolving door admission, my husband would be | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
in hospital for six weeks then home for a couple of weeks, another | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
flashback would be triggered, the police would come out, they would | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
slap him back in hospital, they would keep him on the ward for | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
another six weeks and then send him home. Some veterans are getting the | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
treatment they need, but those like Sue's husband, who are the most | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
acute, and others, the majority with associated addictions such as | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
alcohol and drugs, are struggling. Until he retired this year Dr Kerin | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
Fletcher was one of the only two NHS psychiatrists who specialised in | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
both trauma and addictions. The National Health Service the level of | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
trauma training is very poor, and it is unusual for doctors, even | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
psychiatrists to get particular training in treating people with | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
psychological trauma. When I flashback and I collapse, very good | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
chance that I have a stroke, which would be catastrophic. My cupboard | :25:39. | :25:48. | |
now contains antidepressants. Sodium to stop me fitting and more | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
importantly if I do fit they stop me, or will help to stop me having a | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
stroke. At least two-thirds of veterans suffering from PTSD use | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
alcohol because of their condition. Dave is one of them. One will always | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
go with the other, I don't drink normally, it is only if I say I have | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
been suffering three, four, five days on the trot, no sleep, | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
flashback, nightmares, I'm going crazy out of my mind, then I will | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
start drinking because it will persuade me after a litre of Vodka, | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
like a pint or two for people, it calms me down. People who take | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
alcohol are actually in that context completely misunderstood, because | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
they are regarded as people who could stop it if they wanted to. | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
That they are doing it to self-medicate consciously, they are | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
not. They in fact are doing it because they unconsciously need to | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
have the endorphins to be able to make themselves feel reasonably | :26:52. | :27:00. | |
normal. Dave was finally diagnosed with PTSD in 2007 and spent nearly a | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
year in a clinic. For a while things were better, but his PTSD returned | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
way it his need for alcohol. When you fix the PTSD the people don't | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
need to have those particular substances. So to entirely divorce | :27:15. | :27:22. | |
addictions as being a sort of chemical consequence of having PTSD | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
and treat that as a separate entity all together misses the point. | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
Because the PTSD is the driving force behind it, you have to take it | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
into account. We don't have any services in the UK where a | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
significant level of alcohol dependence and a significant level | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
of psychological trauma can be treated together. So you have this | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
dreadful situation where the chances of you being able to get the | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
treatment you need are extremely low. The NHS, as good as they are, | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
they have saved my life a couple of times at least. But they have to | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
keep referring me to combat stress, and combass stress is a small | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
charitable organisation. There is thousands of us. Veterans like Les | :28:10. | :28:19. | |
can also receive treatment from the charity sector, either directly or | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
via the NHS. It is led by Combat Stress, which receives 40% of | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
funding from the Government. It was set up in 1919 to help soldiers | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
suffering from shell shock, and over the last 95 years has developed a | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
range of treatments and services. The number of veterans contacting | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
them is steadily increasing and last year over 1,000 veterans were | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
admitted for residential treatment. They have also established a | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
six-week intensive treatment programme. Les was accepted on to it | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
in November 2012. It was more group therapy than individual therapy. And | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
group therapy you know didn't help me much. Combat Stress says the | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
programme is showing good results and it helps approximately 200 | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
people each year. But the veterans we have spoken to, like Les, have | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
criticisms. I just couldn't take it all in. As I say, after the first | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
three weeks I didn't want to go back. And while I was there all the | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
little boxes were opened up again. They gave us the tools to close | :29:28. | :29:35. | |
them, but it didn't work. So I left there feeling pretty much worse than | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
I was when I got there. I came back and for the first three weeks I | :29:40. | :29:47. | |
didn't leave my house. I don't know who Compat Stress sent me, it wasn't | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
my husband. They destroyed him. They absolutely tore him apart. The first | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
four weeks I don't think I slept in our bed, two particular nights. Can | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
you describe why? He was having nightmares, and these were the worst | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
I have ever seen. Previously before he went in, I don't know if you | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
actually know this, but before the arm would come across, his whole | :30:17. | :30:23. | |
body would tense up. I had no warning after he came out of Combat | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
Stress until I felt with his first or his elbow or his head. He put his | :30:31. | :30:38. | |
hand around my throat and squeezed and he has never done that before. | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
Others also had concerns about the course, Dr Fletcher resigned from | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
Combat Stress last year after working there for nearly two | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
decades. You don't ever, ever get people out of a deeply ingrained | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
disorder in the space of a single six-week episode of treatment. You | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
need continuing care, repeated episodes of treatment and so on. | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
Combat Stress offer follow-up sessions, three, six and 12 months | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
after their intensive treatment programme. You worked at Combat | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
Stress for nearly 20 years and you left last year, can you tell us what | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
led you to resign? I think clinical exasperation is the reason that I | :31:25. | :31:33. | |
left. I was also discouraged by the managerial pressures to push people | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
through groups that I didn't think were sometimes fit for purpose. And | :31:38. | :31:47. | |
the degree of managerial influence over clinical decision making so, | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
because I'm old and tired I decided to leave rather than stay with those | :31:52. | :32:00. | |
frustrations. Les did find alternative treatment from several | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
different charities and he's now able to leave the house and lead a | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
more normal life. Dave Salt has previously been to Combat Stress | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
three times and was accepted on to their six-week intensive treatment | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
programme. Under the condition that he stays alcohol-free for three | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
months. But because he's failed this criteria he won't be allowed on to | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
the course at the moment. We're talking my life, it gets very | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
serious. My body won't take any more alcohol, any more poise sin, and -- | :32:35. | :32:44. | |
poise sin, and you become suicidal, when you are that low it is death. | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
You are Dead Man Walking, you won't see old age. What they have been | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
through is appalling and they have done it for their country and the | :32:55. | :33:02. | |
impact of PTSD and alcohol dependence on their lives is so | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
appalling you would thought a small degree of priority to be given to | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
this severely affected group and it is not being given and it should be | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
given. That's why it is essential to | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
preplan that safety plan if you need to escape the house and have it set | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
in your mind and have code words for the kids. Even our dog knows if I | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
say "here now", the dog comes running and we're out the door. It | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
is madness, isn't it. For Sue and her group, they want to find help | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
for their husbands now. Yet for the vast majority of veterans, those who | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
have acute PTSD and those who use alcohol or drugs because of it, they | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
are struggling to find the treatment they need when they need it most. | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
When my husband was injured serving in the army I thought he was gone. I | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
was told he wasn't gone, and I was assured that due to the Military | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
Covenant ourselves, my husband, myself, my family would get any | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
required medical care and any required financial care that he | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
needed for life, for having done his duty, for having made sure the | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
people of this country were protected. This isn't happening and | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
it is not happening in a lot of households across the country. We | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
asked for an interview with someone from the health service in England | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
but no-one was available. But the NHS gave us the following statement. | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
"NHS England recognises there is significant room for improvement... | :34:40. | :35:08. | |
We have the director of medical services at Combat Stress, we will | :35:09. | :35:19. | |
come on to the specific which is are being directed towards Combat | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
Stress. On the general point do you accept that provision is limited to | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
veterans? Provision has improved over the last seven-and-a-half years | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
since I joined the charity, it is better than it was. It needs to grow | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
further. I would accept more can be done. Some veterans that we spoke to | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
had found that the treatment by Combat Stress had actually made | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
their condition worse rather than better, it doesn't work for all | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
people? Treatment doesn't work for all people. Having said that I was | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
concerned to see the film and of course I will look at each | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
individual case as best I can and try to put things right for them. It | :35:59. | :36:06. | |
seemed to me that treatment could be stopped half way through or people | :36:07. | :36:08. | |
didn't engage fully. But a lot of the treatments we do have do work. | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
The difficulty is always about engaging the individual into the | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
treatment pathway and keeping him there. Two things, both Dr Fletcher | :36:18. | :36:26. | |
and Professor Turnball talked about the dual nature of the condition, | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
both alcohol and PTSD, and what the professor seemed to be saying is | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
there is a misuning it is not an alcohol dependence but a need for a | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
kick in the endorphin, dealing with alcohol first or demanding a | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
three-month withdrawal period before the six-week programme is | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
counter-productive? It is very difficult to know precisely what | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
will work for each individual. Each individual needs a tailor-made plan | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
and that is what we try to do. At the front end of a clinical pathway | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
we assess their needs and if they have alcohol or drug problems, now | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
they are rolling out an alcohol service management in the community | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
which means we would allow the individual to access a local | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
statutory service to have their des to go and then case manage them back | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
to a treatment to deal with the mental health problems as quickly as | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
possible. What the doctors seem to be saying is actually the des to go | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
is impossible, the two things are so interlinked there is no service that | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
deals both with the trauma and the alcohol together that actually what | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
happens is some veterans are barred from the programme because they | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
can't deal with the drug and alcohol? The main issue about our | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
six week programme is it does mean a lot of trauma-focussed and cognitive | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
behaviour therapy, so you have psychotherapy to confront the | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
horrible things you have been through, we have to have you in the | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
room to do that. If you are drinking before and after it won't work. It | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
is a big dilemma we want them treated as soon as practicable. Then | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
you have the case there of treated as soon as practicable. Then | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
who said what happened was he came to the programme and got the tool | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
box in order to help but couldn't close that box. What he seemed to be | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
saying was that the six-week programme is really not sufficient | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
to the task? Well the issue, I can't discuss the individual case because | :38:21. | :38:22. | |
I don't know the details. But the fact is we have treated around 477 | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
patients through the six-week programmes, and the outcome is good. | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
The programme was devised in Australia where it treated 4,000 | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
veterans with serious PTSD, severe PTSD and passed problems with | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
alcohol that were stable and their outcomes were about 70% that one | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
year follow up did well. Two-thirds have these alcohol and drug-related | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
issues as well with PTSD. For some that six-week programme when I say | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
it hasn't worked, you heard families there saying that actually their | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
partners or husband came out in a sense a worse state because they | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
found they were uncontrollable violence and so forth. Presumably as | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
Combat Stress increases its own expertise that actually you might | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
consider changing that programme? The programme will evolve and get | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
better, that is my observation about it. But at the moment the evidence | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
so far is that the outcomes are better than the Australian outcomes. | :39:25. | :39:32. | |
We are benchmarked by the Australian veterans' mental health leads. We | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
are benchmarked every year, we submit quarterly reports to the NHS. | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
We have very high satisfaction and exit rates that are independently | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
scrutinised of the veterans that attend. There are a lot of veterans | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
who have benefitted tremenduously, life-changing benefits from the | :39:51. | :39:52. | |
programme. Thank you very much indeed. It is back to school time, | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
parents can heave a sigh of relief. But not one very dedicated or | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
perhaps crazy family, the Meeks, parents Tim and Kerry and daughters | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
Amy and Ella have embarked on an epic year-long education road tripe | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
around the UK. Often dovetailing their curriculum of everything from | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
maths to bush skills with Radio 4's timetable, anything from Thought for | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
the Day to Moral Maze, travelling with a caravan, they limbered up by | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
setting the girls 100 challenges to achieve in a year. They recorded it | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
all. Here is a flavour of their ideal of informal learning. One of | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
our changes we have been told to name our caravan and to record the | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
places it visits, we have named it Ellie. | :40:48. | :41:56. | |
Well I'm now going in to meet the Meek family in their shiny caravan, | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
the girls have obviously been allowed to stay up very late tonight | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
to watch Newsnight. Good evening all of you. Hello. This is an adventure. | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
Tell me first of all why have you taken them out of primary school? | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
Well we spent a lot of time in the last year doing 100 adventures | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
together when the chance to win a caravan came up we thought it was | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
the perfect opportunity to try to make more of that and exploit the | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
opportunities to teach our own children for a year. Do you think | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
though that as a teacher yourself you can often the children something | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
special or do you think anybody could do this, it is a huge risk? We | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
have an advantage because we're teachers and that we know what | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
schools teach. But I don't think you need to be a teacher. I think a | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
parent knows their child better than anyone else. And they should be able | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
to give them enough of a wide curriculum, with home schooling | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
there isn't a set curriculum, you can teach them what you want and | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
they can follow their interests. So did you have a hand in this or was | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
this handed down to you, you will go away from school for a year or it | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
was a decision you were involved in Amy? We were involved in it, it | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
wasn't just the parents say we are taking you out of school now. We | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
were involved in the decision and we were eager to do it as well. We | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
enjoyed school but this is a new opportunity and we are eager for new | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
opportunities. I hear you are going to do things by Radio 4, do you | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
Lizzen to Moral Maze is that one of the things you are listening to? | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
Things on Radio 4. Do you listen to the Archers? Maybe. What about you, | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
Ella, did you not worry about leaving all your friends and being | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
stuck with the family for a year? Yes but we are keeping in contact on | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
Skype. Last night I went on Skype with one of my best friends and also | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
we're going to go Nottingham where all our friends are this weekend to | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
see them. Also we're not just lonely because we're on caravan sites with | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
lots of friends that we meet. So you are meeting lots and lots of people. | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
What kind of things, you have just started on this, I know you did the | :44:06. | :44:07. | |
big challenge this year, you have only been on the road for four days. | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
What have you learned so far. Tell me something unusual you have | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
learned? Well we have been to Warwick Castle and we have learned | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
lots of things from there, but probably the most exciting thing | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
that we learned there was the, what's it called? The trebouchet | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
where it fired things like fireballs miles away. You learned about that | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
and you might not have learned about that in school? No, probably not. | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
What happens when you have done this for a year. You sold your house, you | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
don't know where you are going to land up, and presumably at some | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
point you will need to make a decision whether the girls will go | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
back to school or back to... Also the financial reason as well. We | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
have sold our house and given up our jobs and we have allocated an amount | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
of money to survive on for a year. The answer to that is there isn't an | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
answer really it is an open book. We are hopefully going to see if we can | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
extend it further f we can't there is always the option of taking them | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
back to school. What tell me beyond the curriculum and you both know the | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
curriculum as teachers, what are you teaching them, what are you giving | :45:12. | :45:13. | |
them that the school can't give them? I have always thought than I | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
formal learning is underrated. Learning isn't formalised and sat at | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
a table, but learning outside. Multisensory learning, being able to | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
design a curriculum we think is tailor-made for our children and | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
adapt is where they want to take it within reason. Very briefly, what | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
happens when you all fall out and you think I have been with mum and | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
dad far too much? Sometimes we might just close the divider that's there | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
and sit in our bed for a while, thinking gosh, but we get over it | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
and have a great time. We haven't had too many scuffles. Good luck to | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
you. Make sure you get no problems with the caravan and you have a | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
wonderful trip. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. We finish | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
tonight, she was the Queen of the one liner, she had an acid wit and | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
she often turned that wit on everybody including herself. Joan | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
Rivers died at the age of 81. She joked when she got to the pearly | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
gates the chances are God wouldn't recognise her because she had so | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
much plastic surgery. Here she is in incomparable form, good night. Take | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
your time, what are you using? Tell me? Excuse me, we are going to be | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
very adult tonight, Dr Ruth out here, we are talking adult level, | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
what are you using for contraception? Are you using | :46:43. | :46:53. | |
something? Does it look round? Had (laughter) because you also put make | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
up on with it because that would be the sponge or something really | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
stupid you could take a pill and go like that. See you are taking the | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
pill, just curious, people get so testy these day, I was taking the | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
pill but I was putting it in the wrong place so I had my kid! | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
pill but I was putting it in the wrong place so I had my kid! Good | :47:14. | :47:20. | |
evening, let's see what is happening on the weather front for the final | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
day of the working week for most of us. We have some rain to | :47:25. | :47:26. |