23/09/2014 Newsnight


23/09/2014

The stories behind the day's headlines. Air strikes on Islamic State in Syria, looking for the secret Iranian troops in Iraq and Ed Miliband addresses the Labour party conference.


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This is only the beginning, says President Obama, as America and five

:00:00.:00:11.

Arab states take on ISIS. We're going to do what is necessary to

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take the fight to this terrorist group. For the security of the

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country and the region and for the entire world. The air strikes target

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Jihadists in Syria and Iraq as the Pentagon insist they were about to

:00:25.:00:27.

strike the west. Is Britain shaping up to join the attack. Bahrain's

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Foreign Minister will tell us what he thinks this curious coalition can

:00:32.:00:36.

achieve. We go in search of Iran's secret bar

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yes, fighting a clandestine war in Iraq against ISIS. Anyone seen

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SNOBOL no-one has heard of him. Extraordinary, the most powerful man

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in Iraq, no-one has ever heard of. Here in Manchester, Ed Miliband made

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his pitch to be PM, telling his story through the voters he has met.

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Let's have a round of applause for her and the great job she's doing.

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She is one one of the lucky few, her school helped her get an

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apprenticeship, so many schools don't do. That.

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Why did an important part of his prepared speech on immigration and

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the deficit go AWOL. Forget everything you think you know

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about the threat of Syria's Assad, the world was turned upsidedown as a

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coalition was formed inside Assad's country with his knowledge. The US

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launched air strikes on ISIS targets in Syria, President Obama warned it

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was just the beginning. What of Britain's role in all of this? Today

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our Prime Minister called it a fight you can't opt out of it, does that

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mean he's opting us in. Tomorrow things become clearer as David

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Cameron lays out his response before the UN gen. Gen. -- General

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Assembly. We explore this action and what it means.

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This is what the Americans once described as "shock and awe".

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Launched from ships and bombers, fast jets and slow drones, witness

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the US military action at the start of yet another US campaign. This

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time they weren't doing it alone, and President Obama was at pains to

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credit the five Arab nations that took part in these attacks. And this

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was the result, 22 targets reportedly hit. 70 IS fighters dead,

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and numerous control centres destroyed. But will a change of cast

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make today's air strikes any more successful, and any less devisive

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than the ones in the past? It was a three-pronged attack which began

:03:00.:03:05.

this morning at 1. 30am. In the first, two American destroyers

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launched more than 40 Tomahawk cruise missiles. Some of them headed

:03:13.:03:20.

for Aleppo, the target was an area that was planning attacks on the

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west. Most targeted Raqqa head quarters of ISIS. Phase II was more

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complex, this time the Americans weren't on their own, jets caused

:03:32.:03:38.

it, Rappers, B-1 bombers and predator drone, Raqqa the target

:03:39.:03:42.

again. The last phase targeted IS positions in eastern Syria,

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particularly at Deir Al-Zour. They were launched from bases in the

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region. Training compounds, supply depot, command and control centres

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and communications hubs had been destroyed or disabled. By the end of

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the operation more bombs had been dropped in one night than in all

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previous American operations against IS.

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So did it work? Undoubtedly IS have anticipated this attack and hidden

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some of their assets and resources, the point is they can't now

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concentrate. IS have been successful in such a big area because they have

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been very rapid and they concentrate on an area of weakness, now they are

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under air attack they can't concentrate and make any more GAIPS

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gains. It will frustrate their mode of working and degrade their doing

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anything. Saudi Arabia apparently launched four aircraft, so did the

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UAE. Bahrain's contribution was said to be three aircraft. And Jordan

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admitted involvement in bombing raids. Qatar's effort was more

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behind the scenes. For some this contribution was overdue. Why should

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the west pull the Arabs chestnuts out of the fire without significant

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political, economic and military contributions from the countries

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most at threat. It is the fight of the people of Iraq and the

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Government of Iraq and hitherto we have seen too much reluctance by the

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leading powers of the Iranian peninsula to support the Government

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in Baghdad. In Syria itself state TV reported their Government had been

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informed and crucially Syrian air defence radar were apparently turned

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off. IS hit back with a PR strike of its own. Hello there, I'm John

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Cantly. Another video of the British hostage. Militants said the attacks

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would be avenged. Attention will now drift to Westminster, and whether

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and when MPs will be recalled. Meanwhile Newsnight has been told

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that the British military is already on the move. Over the last

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fortnight, a small but significant number of British military

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strategists have been centre, rbil and Iraq, and also to embed at the

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renalal headquarters in Qatar. They have been sent there to support the

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Americans with their surveillance capabilities. But also to prepare

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for the moment that David Cameron orders air strikes using tornado

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jets. We have been told that the Kurdish Peshmerga have asked the

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British to send training mission to help their fighters. They

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particularly need British expertise to help them with the kind of heavy

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artillery they have never used before. The request is being

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considered, and Whitehall sources have told us that David Cameron will

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find it hard to refuse. Public opinion is in a mood to be seen to

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do something, so is parliamentary opinion. If Australia and France and

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our Arab friends are doing things alongside the Americans, it seems

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unconceivable we will stay out it. The question is how deeply are we

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involved, do we do a more extensive back-up operation, or do we join the

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takes ourselves, I think the latter. So it starts again, a new campaign

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against a new enemy, but the west facing the same sold problems. Is it

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legal? Will it work? When will it end?

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We will come on to some of those questions. David Cameron is in New

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York preparing to speak to the UN gen. General -- General Assembly.

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Did the Americans have permission to do that? They informed the Syrian

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delegation before they conducted the air strike, we think they also gave

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some indication of timing and broadly whereabouts they would

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happen. The Syrians did not oppose them. Those two things put together

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in the view of some of the Americans who were planning this constitute

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assent. So they approved it, they didn't attempt to stop it. The

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Americans, if you like, conservative in their legal advice, but with this

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line about this Al-Qaeda offshoot group that they also bombed last

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night. Which was a clear and present danger-type of legal justification

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for going in. And indeed it may well have been the chance to hit that

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other group that brought the timing of this forward a couple of days

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compared with what was expected. The other interesting area of permission

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is that of Congress itself. They have gone off to fight the mid-term

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election, they won't be back for weeks and week, and there are plenty

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in Congress, including some we have spoken to who are quite anxious

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about the President making war under these terms. At some point that will

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come back and be formally debated on in Congress. Where does that leave

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the UK, interesting to hear Michael Clarke say that he thinks David

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Cameron will find it hard to refuse? It was interesting to hear that. The

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contribution the British can make in a military sense is limited, a few

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aircraft, a limited range of munition, perhaps a few cruise

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missiles from a submarine. The question of whether it is

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politically and morally essential for them is foremost. Even the

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politics of this seem to be less attractive in the wake of what we

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saw last night. The Arab countries joining in and dropping bomb,

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actually attacking the Islamic State militants. That is clearly hugely

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beneficial to the US. The UK-type involvement is more what they would

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expect. They are definitely looking at other options too, including

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training. We know the Defence Secretary has been there in the last

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few days, that could be to do with setting up training bases. That is

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something the Americans are accelerating. It could also be that

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there will be British trainers sent to the Kurdish areas of Iraq as

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well. Thank you very much. Just sort of

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looking at the timetables then, how much appetite do you think there

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would be from a British parliament for any interaction and intervention

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now? Well we have seen throughout this uncertainty about whether Ed

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Miliband would support it. There has been this rhetorical support, would

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he vote to support direct action, killing people, to put it crudely,

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by UK military force. I think there are still some uncertainties in that

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regard. And this broader question about the military utility of it. I

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sense reluctance in quite a few parts of Government about this.

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Someone said to me a couple of weeks back. Look in terms of the legal and

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military practicalities we can do this much more easily in Iraq than

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Syria. But should we really? Would we actually add anything militarily

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to the US effort and that's why I think it is the politics and if you

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like the moral question, having lost a British hostage and having others

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under threat, which are really paramount in this calculation about

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whether it is right for Britain to join this. Thank you very much

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indeed. Well the Bahraini Foreign Minister, Shaikh Khalid joins us

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from New York. Thank you very much for joining us, what has Bahrain

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done so far, what do you understand has been achieved? We have joined

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our allies in this battle and our planes, as we heard earlier in your

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programme have joined other planes in bombing targets and destroying

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some of the strongholds and communications and other places. But

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I don't want to get into more details of the operation. But we are

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part of the coalition. When you say part of, does it feel like America

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is taking the lead or the Arab peninsula, how does the coalition

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work? Well we should thank America for coming to help us in our battle

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against people who have deviated from our religion and trying to

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destroy our culture. So this is mainly our battle that we are

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fighting, and we should thank our allies for standing with us, whether

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in this time or before against the Taliban in Afghanistan or as we

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fought together origins the pirates and the Indian Ocean pirate, we are

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in it together and we are very thankful. Do you agree with the

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guest on our programme who says there has been previously too much

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reluctance from the Arab powers to support the Baghdad Government

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before now? Well, no. We have always maintained very good relationships

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with the Government in Baghdad and we, the relationship developed in

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many ways and we opened a consulate in another city other than Baghdad.

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But now we are seeing the inclusiveness of the Iraqi

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Government sending very clear messages to the neighbourhood.

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Especially to the countries in the GCC and around. That this is a

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serious Government that wants to get out of an area that caused them a

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lot of problems with their own people. We are looking forward to

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even move forward with the Government of Baghdad. Just help us

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to understand, on a practical level, what level of co-ordination do you

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have now with Syria to make sure they don't shoot you down? Well we

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don't have any level of co-ordination with Syria. We have

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all the levels of co-ordination with our allies in these operations. That

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is what we do now, but there are no co-ordinations with Syria in any

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way. So there has been no contact between your coalition and the

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Syrian Government, Assad? Well, you know we are a coalition of several

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countries, and this point here I'm talking about Bahrain, we did not

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have any contact, but the coalition has its own way of handling the

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matters in its own structure. Are you concerned that if this is a

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success, as you hope, it will help Assad? Well the concern is much

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bigger than the picture you are putting now about Syria. The concern

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is about all our countries, so this is one battle, this is one state

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that was created in an area that transcends the borders of countries,

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and threatening the rest of the countries, but let's not forget this

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is one of many. Let's not forget the issues in the Arabian peninsula or

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Al-Qaeda, or the newly created one in the Indian sub-continent. This is

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one battle we are facing. When you look at the new relations this is

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creating now. You find yourself on the same side as Iran. Now for

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Bahrain that must be very odd? Well, Iran is a neighbour, we do have our

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relationship with Iran, we do have our differences with Iran. But we

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are on the right side, we are fighting terror, we are fighting

:15:29.:15:33.

criminals who killed innocent people, who killed aid workers from

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Britain and journalists from America and around the world. This is a war

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in the right direction against evil. If anyone would like to choose to be

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with us in this battle then they will have to be fighting in a clear

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manner. Because not doing it with other proxys. What would be your

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message to Britain tonight as it considers whether to intervene or

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not. Is Britain important to this? Well Britain is vital to this, to

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this campaign and we have always worked and fought wars with Britain

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and we are confident that Britain will be taking the decision that

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would serve its own interests. Does that mean military intervention, you

:16:25.:16:30.

want to see it fighting? Well, you can pose this question to the

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British Government, but we did stand with Britain and Britain stood with

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us in the past and this is not something that will surprise us in

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any way. Thank you very much indeed, we appreciate your time here on

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Newsnight. So back to that question then where is Britain in all of

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this? Last time round the question of intervention in Syria was raised,

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a year ago we were, crudely put, on the other side, then Assad was the

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enemy, now it is really not so clear. So what are parliamentarian,

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particularly those who came of age in the long shadow of the Iraq War

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to decide. And what of the legality of war this time round. Here is what

:17:06.:17:10.

the PM said earlier. There are other plots they have been attempting,

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include anything my own country, in order to kill and maime innocent

:17:14.:17:16.

people. The same applies to the United States of America. This is a

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fight you cannot opt out of. These people want to kill us, they have

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got us in their sights and we have to put together this coalition,

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working with, right across the board, all the countries I

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mentioned, to make sure we ultimately destroy this evil

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organisation. Joining me now the Conservative MP, Adam Holloway who

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served in the first Gulf War and just returned from northern Iraq,

:17:41.:17:45.

and the former appeal Jew, Geoffrey Robertson. -- appeal judge, Geoffrey

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Robertson. Does it feel like we have a role to play? We do have a role to

:17:56.:18:01.

play. This will be settled by politics and not military action. It

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is a shame that tonight's headlines are American-led bombing campaign. I

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think we should have been a bit smarter about it, perhaps spending a

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bit longer getting together a coalition of people from the Middle

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East and seeing ourselves very much in support, but much more as

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enablers, I think the last thing one wants generated around the world is

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another western intervention in the Middle East. So what are you saying,

:18:26.:18:29.

don't go in? No, I'm not saying don't go in. It was very interesting

:18:30.:18:34.

in Iraq last week that whole swathe that fell to ISIS recently, didn't

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fall by magic or indeed by force of arms, it fell because the Sunnis in

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that area were completely fed up with the Shia Government in Baghdad,

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so what we call ISIS in Iraq for example is made up of tribesmen, it

:18:48.:18:54.

is made out of former Ba'ath Party members, Saddam's people, and also

:18:55.:18:57.

international Jihadies. To treat them all together is not sensible.

:18:58.:19:01.

What about Syria, should we be going there? No. I think if it was

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possible, first of all it is a problem for those living in the

:19:09.:19:10.

country and the people in the region. Only as a third order thing

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is it for us to be doing things, certainly you know overtly like

:19:19.:19:20.

that. Geoffrey Robertson, first question, is it legal? Yes,

:19:21.:19:25.

absolutely in way that the attack on Saddam to overthrow a regime was not

:19:26.:19:30.

lawful and needed Security Council backs. Last year there was a stupid

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reprisal idea, we bomb Syria because they are using poison Gustafsson,

:19:38.:19:41.

but without any kind of purpose, quite rightly you were opposed to

:19:42.:19:58.

that, as were a number of other Conservativeso that, as were a

:19:59.:20:00.

number of other Conservatives were against it. ISIS are not state, they

:20:01.:20:05.

are really pirates of the desert, and enemies of human kind, and they

:20:06.:20:10.

can be attacked because they are genocidal, they are committing war

:20:11.:20:15.

crimes, crimes against humanity. And they are killing people because of

:20:16.:20:20.

their religious beliefs, because they are unbelievers. As a military

:20:21.:20:26.

man, if you don't go in to stop genocide, when do you deploy your

:20:27.:20:32.

forces? Look the way that ISIS will finally be defeated in the large

:20:33.:20:36.

part is when the local people, living in the areas that they

:20:37.:20:43.

currently control get rid of themselves. If they can't? They have

:20:44.:20:48.

got a big problem. We sure as hell won't, we failed miserably in

:20:49.:20:53.

Afghanistan and Iraq, we have to see this as a political problem. Why do

:20:54.:20:58.

Labour talk about the need to seek a resolution? I think Labour and a few

:20:59.:21:02.

Lib Dems are wrong in law. What they don't understand is this is not a

:21:03.:21:07.

state, it is committing a group of international criminals who are

:21:08.:21:11.

genocidally intent to kill Kurd, they are killing Christian, they are

:21:12.:21:17.

killing Shia Muslims. The call yesterday for people throughout the

:21:18.:21:22.

world to rise up and behead people in the streets, in Australia they

:21:23.:21:25.

foiled a plot at the weekend, there was the killing in Belgium, and so

:21:26.:21:32.

they are international criminals. Ed Miliband, I was actually at his

:21:33.:21:36.

speech today and he started, to everyone's amazement with Alan

:21:37.:21:40.

Henning who was a Manchester man, and you could have heard a pin drop,

:21:41.:21:44.

no applause until the end. And then he said, Britain can never turn its

:21:45.:21:54.

back on internationalism. These are inter national criminals and we have

:21:55.:21:59.

a duty to stop genocide. The feel of this is very different to the

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British public isn't it? I don't know amongst your Conservative peers

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how many of them would agree with your position right now, what do you

:22:06.:22:10.

think? I don't know. All I can say is that last week with my colleagues

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in northern Iraq it was really quite terrifying to hear that literally

:22:15.:22:21.

two minutes drive away from us was 1,000kms of frontline with the most

:22:22.:22:25.

dangerous organisation on earth, who in Mosul alone, 50 minutes away from

:22:26.:22:32.

where we were had got 700 modern American armoured vehicle, 120mm

:22:33.:22:36.

mortars, modern kit, they are not fools they know how to use it, they

:22:37.:22:41.

are all the old ba'athists, not only can they use the weaponry but they

:22:42.:22:46.

can fix it. Their social media effort is unbelievable. Their income

:22:47.:22:52.

is about a million dollars a day in these little mini-pipelines to

:22:53.:22:55.

Syria. We have to cut off the oil money and the hostages. The terrible

:22:56.:23:00.

thing about the wrong thing about going for a UN Security Council

:23:01.:23:05.

resolution is that it puts us in Putin's debt. And at this point,

:23:06.:23:11.

because Russia has a veto, and might exercise that, what has to be done,

:23:12.:23:15.

we should go ahead because we are in the right. And then, if Russia wants

:23:16.:23:23.

to condemn us, let it put forward its opinion. That was done in

:23:24.:23:27.

Kosovo. You have to get the politics right. It is the Kosovo way that has

:23:28.:23:34.

to be done to do our duty a duty under the Genocide Convention to

:23:35.:23:39.

stop this barbaric killing on ground of religion or no religion.

:23:40.:23:44.

Now in Iraq the United States has been bombing ISIS since August in

:23:45.:23:48.

support of an unlikely coalition of Iraqi military, Kurdish fighters and

:23:49.:23:52.

Shia militia, but on the ground it is Iran that seems to be extending

:23:53.:23:56.

its influence, playing a more and more active role, all under the

:23:57.:24:00.

leadership of one secretive Iranian general. We have been on the trail

:24:01.:24:04.

of the Iranian described as the most powerful man in Iraq.

:24:05.:24:15.

In the stifling heat of August, Kurdish forces battle the Jihadists

:24:16.:24:24.

of Islamic State. It was here, less than 100 miles from Baghdad that the

:24:25.:24:31.

Peshmerga halted the IS advance, the Kurds are backed by US air power.

:24:32.:24:41.

Buttal But Jalala is on the border with Iran and Iran is providing most

:24:42.:24:45.

of the support. There is more to this than a battle of brutal

:24:46.:24:50.

Jihadist, Iran is waging a campaign here, for control of Iraq and also

:24:51.:24:53.

for its influence in the wider Middle East. And at the heart of

:24:54.:24:58.

that campaign in the shadows has been one man. General Kasim

:24:59.:25:12.

Sulimani, the covert external wing of the Revolutionary Guards and

:25:13.:25:18.

their leader. He has the ear of the Ayatollah himself. But in Iraq he

:25:19.:25:26.

has been sighting taking control of Shia militia groups, politicians

:25:27.:25:30.

blanche at the mention of his name. His power comes because he deals

:25:31.:25:35.

with units on the ground, he's not afraid to travel into Syria and

:25:36.:25:40.

Iraq. He meets with politicians, influential in the political sphere

:25:41.:25:46.

but also militarily. Off camera people told us that Iran

:25:47.:25:56.

has sent artillery and advisers to support the Kurds, and that Kasim

:25:57.:26:02.

Sulimani was here leading the Iranian forces. On the other side

:26:03.:26:08.

there it is ISIS. At the frontline the Kurds are keen to show us how

:26:09.:26:13.

antiquated their weaponry is. It is hard to see how they could have

:26:14.:26:16.

taken this position from Islamic State on their own. I asked the

:26:17.:26:24.

Colonel whether he had any help from Kasim Sulimani. Nobody has seen him?

:26:25.:26:32.

Anybody seen him? No. No-one at all? He's like a ghost! No-one has heard

:26:33.:26:45.

of him, the most powerful man in Iraq and no-one has heard of him!

:26:46.:26:50.

But one local Kurdish commander confirmed to the BBC that Kasim

:26:51.:26:55.

Sulimani had indeed visited this frontline on a number of occasions

:26:56.:27:01.

and he agreed to reveal the extent of Iranian involvement here.

:27:02.:27:05.

TRANSLATION: Iran sent 16 truckloads of weapons, they sent big artillery

:27:06.:27:09.

and monitor, two big rocket launchers, three or four smaller

:27:10.:27:14.

ones, they sent a mortar battalion too. At the Iranian border the

:27:15.:27:24.

Ayatollahs keep a watchful eye over traffic passing into Iraq. The

:27:25.:27:28.

battles for Iraq and Syria are part of a wider campaign for control of

:27:29.:27:31.

the Middle East between Shia Iran and the Sunni powers of the gulf. In

:27:32.:27:37.

Lebanon Sulimani has nutured Shia Hezbollah, in Syria he has bolstered

:27:38.:27:42.

President Assad, in this not so Cold War, he has become one of Iran's

:27:43.:27:48.

most potent weapons. Up until 2003, Iraq was a vast barrier, a

:27:49.:27:52.

geographical and political block between Iran and its Shia allies to

:27:53.:27:57.

the west in Syria and in Lebanon. But then came the US-led invasion

:27:58.:28:02.

and the Americans, by removing Saddam Hussein also removed that

:28:03.:28:07.

barrier to Iran's ambitions for its expansion in the region. He wants to

:28:08.:28:16.

make sure that groups in Lebanon and Syria or Iraq are dependant on Iran

:28:17.:28:22.

for survival, many of the militia groups fighting in the country,

:28:23.:28:26.

there are variety arcs not just one or two, do rely directly Kasim

:28:27.:28:33.

Sulimani, this allows the Iranians more leverage. A senior Iraqi

:28:34.:28:39.

official told us when the city of Mosul fell, it was swift action by

:28:40.:28:44.

Iran, more than US air strikes that prevented a broader collapse. Many

:28:45.:28:48.

fear their country is becoming dependent on Iraq for its very

:28:49.:28:53.

survival. That the militias as providers of security are becoming

:28:54.:28:56.

an instrument of Iranian political control. The weakness of Iraq with

:28:57.:29:07.

the unstable situation, giving them a bigger role. Because most of the

:29:08.:29:12.

Iraqi decisions were made in Iran not Iraq. All the Iraqi politicians

:29:13.:29:20.

when they have a bigger problem they went to Tehran to solve the

:29:21.:29:25.

problems. They go to Tehran. Kasim Sulimani is a veteran of the

:29:26.:29:31.

Iran-Iraq War, he appears in public only rarely, sometimes for a funeral

:29:32.:29:38.

of the member of his Quds force, where he's known on occasion to shed

:29:39.:29:42.

a tear. Those who have met him describe him as a man who says

:29:43.:29:49.

little and achieves much. He has been up and down the country in the

:29:50.:29:55.

north and south, in the capital, making sure that the Iraqi states

:29:56.:29:59.

and the Shia militias assisting the Iraqi security forces are able to

:30:00.:30:04.

confront the threat from ISIS. After eight years of occupation and

:30:05.:30:08.

billions of dollars spent, the Americans are being outmanoeuvred.

:30:09.:30:11.

At the end of last month American air strikes helped break the siege

:30:12.:30:16.

of a town that had been encircled by IS. But who sweeps in to take credit

:30:17.:30:34.

for this victory? Enter Kasim Sulimani, here he is celebrating,

:30:35.:30:38.

evidence of his presence on the ground.

:30:39.:30:43.

Kasim Sulimani came to visit us, he saw the situation and his visit

:30:44.:30:48.

helped raise our spirits. At the Iranian border the advance of the

:30:49.:30:53.

Jihadists has been checked, but they are not defeated. Iraq is becoming a

:30:54.:30:59.

client state, reliant on the muscle of the Shia militias and weapons

:31:00.:31:03.

from Tehran. And in the battle against Islamic State, the Americans

:31:04.:31:11.

as much as the Iraqis are now dependent on Iran.

:31:12.:31:16.

Here in Manchester it was leaders' speech day at the Labour Party

:31:17.:31:20.

Conference. And Ed Miliband pronounced that this was the

:31:21.:31:22.

beginning of his eight-month interview for the top job. Listening

:31:23.:31:27.

to his speech, more than an hour, you would have been in no doubt

:31:28.:31:31.

about his belief in the NHS and his desire to tax mansions and close tax

:31:32.:31:37.

loopholes on bankers. In a sense Ed Miliband quite clearly framed how he

:31:38.:31:40.

would like to see the election campaign. For Labour we are all in

:31:41.:31:45.

it together, stealing the Tories' line, if f the Conservatives, you

:31:46.:31:51.

are on your own. But there were some hefty omissions from the speech too,

:31:52.:31:54.

hardly a mention of welfare, almost nothing on national security, and

:31:55.:31:59.

hard as it may be to believe, it appears he forgot his section of the

:32:00.:32:03.

speech about the deficit, the same with the section on immigration. So

:32:04.:32:08.

was Ed Miliband trying to present a philosophy, and did it work? Our

:32:09.:32:13.

political editor's report contains some flashing images.

:32:14.:32:20.

Four years ago on the fourth floor of this hotel Ed Miliband stayed the

:32:21.:32:26.

night on the night he became Labour leader and took his first steps.

:32:27.:32:30.

Today from the same hotel room he set off to make the big speech. In

:32:31.:32:34.

year one it was the big idea. The producers or predators. Year two the

:32:35.:32:39.

big slogan? One- nation, the country where everyone has a stake. And last

:32:40.:32:44.

year, year three, the big policy offer. The next Labour Government

:32:45.:32:47.

will freeze gas and electricity prices. So to Manchester 2014, his

:32:48.:32:52.

last big moment before the general election. Our country nearly broke

:32:53.:32:59.

up. A country that nearly splits apart is not a country in good

:33:00.:33:04.

health. Lessons from Scotland were fresh in his mind, and people too? I

:33:05.:33:09.

don't know how Josephine voted in the referendum but I do know the

:33:10.:33:15.

question she was asking, is anyone going to make life better for me and

:33:16.:33:19.

my family. That wasn't just the referendum question. That is the

:33:20.:33:26.

general election question. Once he talked about one-nation

:33:27.:33:31.

Labour, today it was even simpler? Together we can build a better

:33:32.:33:35.

future for the working people of Britain. Together we can rebuild

:33:36.:33:41.

Britain, friends together we can. He said the word "together" over 50

:33:42.:33:45.

times, this was primary colour politics, hit the Tories where it

:33:46.:33:49.

hurts, friends of the rich, butchers of the NHS. If you are a

:33:50.:33:55.

Conservative-supporting, gold-mining, Russian oligarch and

:33:56.:34:00.

you have got ?160,000 to spare to bid in an auction, you won't be on

:34:01.:34:04.

your own! You will be on the tennis court, playing doubles with David

:34:05.:34:09.

Cameron. That's telling you all you need to know about this Government.

:34:10.:34:14.

We will set aside resources so that we can have in our NHS 3,000 more

:34:15.:34:22.

midwives, 5,000 more care workers, 8,000 more GPs, and 20,000 more

:34:23.:34:30.

nurses. And NHS with time to care. Paid for by a "Mansion Tax" and

:34:31.:34:34.

windfall tax on tobacco companies, but so far the barest mentions of

:34:35.:34:39.

Britain's deficit or debt. Later it would emerge that without notes the

:34:40.:34:42.

Labour leader had forgotten the sections. The recovery would be for

:34:43.:34:48.

the many and not few, he tried to name check all the population too.

:34:49.:34:55.

Like a young girl called Ziamara, Gareth at a softwarep k I met

:34:56.:34:59.

someone called Elizabeth, I met an amazing man called Colin in his 80s.

:35:00.:35:06.

5 minutes the speech sagged sending Labour's biggest funders to sleep.

:35:07.:35:12.

Today I want to lay out ten years of goals, plan for the next ten years.

:35:13.:35:18.

Increasing wages, NHS funding, apprenticeship, house building,

:35:19.:35:22.

green jobs by 2025, because trust in politics is so low, but also perhaps

:35:23.:35:27.

to help wavering voters who can't yet see Ed Miliband in Number Ten

:35:28.:35:31.

imagine it a little more easily. Ed Miliband waving at Newsnight, but

:35:32.:35:35.

that was one of the flattest to my mind of his big four speech, he

:35:36.:35:39.

didn't have the humourous and dramatic moments he can sometimes

:35:40.:35:42.

pull off. There was a good message on the NHS, very popular. There was

:35:43.:35:47.

good language about basic bargains for Britain's workers. But the thing

:35:48.:35:52.

is Labour as a party is polling well enough, speechers like this may not

:35:53.:35:55.

matter. The party may be in Downing Street in seven month's time. There

:35:56.:35:59.

is a sense in Manchester this evening that the speech didn't

:36:00.:36:02.

broaden Labour's appeal, Labour's big tent has been replaced by a

:36:03.:36:08.

bivoac, one source said. By boosting the NHS, Ed Miliband has tonight

:36:09.:36:12.

made things very unfortunately for the Conservatives. That speech came

:36:13.:36:17.

to an end a few hours ago, people here have been on absorbing what it

:36:18.:36:25.

meant. Can we be clear, did Ed Miliband forget to mention the

:36:26.:36:29.

deficit? You know it was an hour-long speech and you know things

:36:30.:36:36.

always change in the delivery b you I don't think anybody in the cabinet

:36:37.:36:40.

is under any illusions of the challenge we face with the deficit,

:36:41.:36:43.

how we need to live within our means and balance the book. Ed Balls set

:36:44.:36:47.

out a range of things yesterday and we will carry on making the case for

:36:48.:36:51.

the future. As might be understanding in a big speech,

:36:52.:36:55.

trying to do it without notes, he happened to forget a particular

:36:56.:36:58.

passage which is available for all to see on the Labour website. Isn't

:36:59.:37:01.

it telling that issue isn't at the forefront of his mind? I think it is

:37:02.:37:06.

at the forefront of his mind. He has been very clear, and the Chancellor

:37:07.:37:09.

has been very clear, And we are all-clear as members of the Shadow

:37:10.:37:12.

Cabinet. There isn't going to be extra money around. We have to stick

:37:13.:37:15.

to the limits that this Government has set for the first year and make

:37:16.:37:20.

big reforms to the economy, and big reforms to our public services if we

:37:21.:37:23.

will live within our means. But there was not any of that in the

:37:24.:37:28.

speech, surely to re-establish economic credibility, which

:37:29.:37:30.

everybody agrees Ed Miliband has to do for the Labour Party, there had

:37:31.:37:35.

to be language about hard choices fast, you read what he meant to say

:37:36.:37:42.

about it, it was a matter of three or four lines and saying I will get

:37:43.:37:46.

on it? He was clear on the NHS that there wouldn't be extra borrowing

:37:47.:37:49.

for the commitments. He talked about new taxes to put more money? It is

:37:50.:37:53.

also those extra staff will be tied to reform, to make sure that we get

:37:54.:37:56.

a care system we need for the future, keeping people at home,

:37:57.:38:02.

rather than in hospital. Our public serves do need to change, and the

:38:03.:38:04.

economy needs to change. Actually if you look at his section on the

:38:05.:38:08.

economy, if we are going to get the deficit down we have to turbo charge

:38:09.:38:13.

jobs and growth. Good jobs with decent wages that is part of the way

:38:14.:38:17.

to get the deficit down. Hasn't he just given the Conservatives all the

:38:18.:38:21.

ammunition they need for the next six months, they can say Ed Miliband

:38:22.:38:24.

forgot the deficit? I think he set them a challenge. He has set them a

:38:25.:38:29.

challenge and rightly so. That we need a different kind of economy,

:38:30.:38:33.

that helps ordinary people, that we need to have the jobs for the

:38:34.:38:37.

future, decent well-paid jobs. We need to give people a sense of hope

:38:38.:38:40.

that their lives are going to be different. I think that is a

:38:41.:38:43.

rightful challenge to the Tories. And he's saying, which is the really

:38:44.:38:47.

big question, how are we going to achieve this. Will it be by working

:38:48.:38:51.

together and make sure everyone benefits or a few at the top. That

:38:52.:38:55.

has always been the big debate between Labour and the

:38:56.:38:56.

Conservatives, I think he nailed that argument. In the hall, however,

:38:57.:39:01.

the huge rounds of applause, which were far and few between were for

:39:02.:39:06.

those attacks on bankers or for the support for the NHS, isn't it really

:39:07.:39:12.

the case that speech was about the core votes, the 35%? Absolutely not.

:39:13.:39:20.

I take it you would assume you are a middle-class person, do you use the

:39:21.:39:26.

NHS? I do use the NHS, but let's not make assumptions about anyone else.

:39:27.:39:31.

The NHS is from all walks of life. Being able to afford a decent home.

:39:32.:39:34.

That is what people of all walks of life aspire to. The section on

:39:35.:39:37.

people who are self-employed, more and more of those people. I think

:39:38.:39:41.

that you are really wrong to say that was a core vote strategy, it

:39:42.:39:45.

wasn't. It was appealing to ordinary people across the country. That is

:39:46.:39:49.

very positive message for us. In terms of the messages about

:39:50.:39:53.

aspiration, you have written for the pressure group Progress, about the

:39:54.:39:55.

importance of having that message of aspiration. Where was that in this

:39:56.:39:59.

speech? What is more of an aspiration than wanting a decent

:40:00.:40:03.

job, getting great skills, being able to afford a home. I think that

:40:04.:40:08.

is what all people want. That is a message about aspiration. People

:40:09.:40:12.

wanting to own their own business, the entrepeneurs, that is what he

:40:13.:40:15.

talked about, that is a complete misinterpretation of the speech, if

:40:16.:40:19.

you don't mind me saying. You are entitled to have your views, that is

:40:20.:40:22.

why we asked you on the programme. Thank you very much for joining us.

:40:23.:40:25.

Let's hear some other views on Ed Miliband's speech today. Because

:40:26.:40:31.

caught on camera in there was even Len McClusky, Labour's biggest

:40:32.:40:39.

backer falling asleep at the back. We have Phil Collins for the times

:40:40.:40:47.

with us. You used to write these for a living, you wrote some of Tony

:40:48.:40:50.

Blair's speeches, what did you make of it? I thought Liz said more about

:40:51.:40:54.

the deficit to greater effect in the answer she gave you than Ed Miliband

:40:55.:40:58.

managed to say in the speech. I think she did a very good job. It is

:40:59.:41:03.

very telling, not only that he forgot to say what he was going to

:41:04.:41:06.

do, which was a consequence of learning the speech. Which he had no

:41:07.:41:09.

need to do. He should have done it behind a podium with an autocue, we

:41:10.:41:14.

didn't need to know he can audition to play King Lear, he should have

:41:15.:41:20.

done a prime ministerial speech. The fact is even in the scripted version

:41:21.:41:26.

there was hardly anything in the deficit, tells us Labour want to

:41:27.:41:29.

forget it, we will hear about that again and again at the Conservative

:41:30.:41:33.

Party Conference. Is it the new note saying there is no money left? What

:41:34.:41:37.

I'm worried about with the speech which I really wanted to support was

:41:38.:41:41.

indeed that it would appeal to the people who are already convinced by

:41:42.:41:44.

Labour. If you already thought Labour's heart is in the right place

:41:45.:41:48.

and on the side of fairness and justice and more equal society and

:41:49.:41:50.

more opportunities for the people who are left behind and against the

:41:51.:41:55.

privileged, then he reinforced all of that. I thought the messages on

:41:56.:42:00.

the NHS were excellent, I think it has been under threat. I was

:42:01.:42:03.

reassured to hear him talking about Europe. If you are worried about how

:42:04.:42:08.

Labour will deliver this land of unicorns and milk and honey, then

:42:09.:42:11.

you didn't get many answers about how it was going to get from where

:42:12.:42:15.

we are now to where they hope to be. If you are a worried sceptic it

:42:16.:42:23.

wouldn't convince you. Phil it is 35% strategy that you shore up the

:42:24.:42:27.

core and get to the door of Number Ten? There is some of that but let's

:42:28.:42:32.

find glimmers of hope in it. The long section on policy was dull, I

:42:33.:42:37.

say that as a compliment, it is always boring. Part of being

:42:38.:42:43.

primesal is saying I'm man with a -- prime ministerial is saying I'm a

:42:44.:42:46.

man with a plan. I didn't mind it was tedious, underneath that it was

:42:47.:42:49.

a good policy. There was good stuff in there. The thing that didn't

:42:50.:42:52.

work, I have some sympathy because it is hard to do the speeches is the

:42:53.:42:57.

governing idea of together didn't work, together is not an idea it is

:42:58.:43:00.

just a word. The idea that Labour likes to do things together and

:43:01.:43:04.

Tories sometimes like to do something on their own was slightly

:43:05.:43:08.

preposterous, and it fell apart quickly. I disagree with that. Come

:43:09.:43:13.

on! From George Osborne's first budget which made it clear that

:43:14.:43:15.

basically the Tories are stripping away a lot of the safety nets that

:43:16.:43:19.

underpin people's lives, I think there has been a theme from the

:43:20.:43:22.

Tories which says it is a cold, hard world you have to make it on your

:43:23.:43:25.

own merits. I think for Ed Miliband to come back and remind people that

:43:26.:43:31.

the Labour Party is about saying we believe in co-operation,

:43:32.:43:35.

particularly with the Scottish vote. He is reinforcing in people's minds

:43:36.:43:39.

the idea with the Labour Party we are trying to bring everybody up.

:43:40.:43:43.

That is a wonderful that he's trying to make our society more equal, I'm

:43:44.:43:47.

still worried about the fact that for instance when he talked about

:43:48.:43:50.

the fact that we are going to give people better jobs and we are going

:43:51.:43:53.

to make sure that wages rise along with productivity. The things that

:43:54.:43:56.

he then announced that would deliver that had nothing to do with the

:43:57.:44:01.

first. Perhaps, Phil, the scepticism in this conference hall afterwards

:44:02.:44:04.

was pretty high, to be honest with it. The chat was it had been quite

:44:05.:44:09.

flat, it didn't do that much to alter things for him, except that

:44:10.:44:12.

people have underestimated Ed Miliband before, nobody thought he

:44:13.:44:15.

was going to beat his brother and Labour are still ahead in the polls?

:44:16.:44:19.

That is true, that is because the economic recovery is not translating

:44:20.:44:22.

into improved living standards, that is the explanation why Labour can be

:44:23.:44:25.

a long way behind on the economy, but still extremely competitive for

:44:26.:44:28.

the next election, which it is. Briefly, we are almost out of time,

:44:29.:44:32.

did anything happen on the stage today that actually shifts the dial

:44:33.:44:35.

in terms of the election? Can I say this was one of the rare speeches

:44:36.:44:39.

that worked less well in the hall than on the clips on television. I

:44:40.:44:42.

think the clips we have watched where Ed looks as if he as really

:44:43.:44:48.

passionate about the NHS or Europe or the Tories constructing a society

:44:49.:44:51.

rigged against ordinary working people, that worked very

:44:52.:44:55.

effectively. One thing I would say is stop going out and talk to

:44:56.:44:58.

people, so don't talk to anyone ever again. S it the dangerous thing of

:44:59.:45:02.

talking to public people and then mentioning them on the stage. They

:45:03.:45:05.

are not always aware that it is even going to happen. We failed to track

:45:06.:45:08.

any of them down. But thank you very much indeed for joining us tonight.

:45:09.:45:12.

We couldn't track down any of the people who as Phil said were

:45:13.:45:21.

mentioned as nausium in Manchester. Perhaps you could have found them

:45:22.:45:25.

somewhere Emily? Some of you will remember Joe the

:45:26.:45:30.

plumber made famous in President Obama's campaign as the every day

:45:31.:45:32.

voter who speaks volumes to the nation. Today it was Ed Miliband's

:45:33.:45:37.

turn to fixate on a random member of the public and make him totemic, one

:45:38.:45:43.

of those was Gareth, a software developer, quietly coming home from

:45:44.:45:47.

a work do and approached by none other than the Labour leader.

:45:48.:45:49.

Gareth's life will never be the same. We tracked him down and made

:45:50.:45:55.

him watch the speech that some how he had completely missed. We have a

:45:56.:45:59.

duty to look each other when times are hard, together, the way we

:46:00.:46:04.

restore faith in the future, together a different idea for

:46:05.:46:08.

Britain. I think this is the first conference speech I have ever

:46:09.:46:12.

watched. I hope it will be my last claim Gareth is here now, do you

:46:13.:46:16.

mean you are not a convert? Some of the things he said in his speech

:46:17.:46:21.

sounded quite sensible. But it is an hour-long speech by a politician.

:46:22.:46:25.

You met him on the Heath a few weeks ago and they told you you were going

:46:26.:46:28.

to be in the speech? I got a call from his office a week or so ago

:46:29.:46:31.

they talked through some of the things he was going to be saying. I

:46:32.:46:34.

thought I would get one mention and maybe one call from a journalist but

:46:35.:46:37.

the phone has been off the hook today, it has been a surreal day to

:46:38.:46:41.

be honest. Did you tell people you were going to be mentioned? I told a

:46:42.:46:45.

few people, but to be honest I thought I don't want to jinx it, I

:46:46.:46:48.

thought he might not mention me in the end. Getting quite as much

:46:49.:46:52.

attention as I have was a big surprise. Did he convince you on a

:46:53.:46:56.

personal level? I was very impressed I think by the meeting. I didn't

:46:57.:47:01.

know him that well as an individual, but he came across as very sincere,

:47:02.:47:08.

very interested and actually I came away certainly very positive

:47:09.:47:13.

impressions. Leaving the secrecy of the ballot box, would that meeting

:47:14.:47:16.

turn your mind, would it make you vote Labour? I don't think it is

:47:17.:47:21.

transformed my opinion, but certainly it has pushed me in that

:47:22.:47:25.

direction, yes, I think so. And fame awaits presumably? Well I'm on

:47:26.:47:29.

Newsnight, so, yeah! And you are great sport for coming in. Thank you

:47:30.:47:32.

very much. Really appreciate having you here. That is all from us, but

:47:33.:47:36.

if you haven't had your fill of conference coverage yet, Andrew Neil

:47:37.:47:41.

will have further highlights and analysis in Today at Conference,

:47:42.:47:46.

here on BBC Two in a few minutes. Wondering how to sum up the theme of

:47:47.:47:52.

the today in one word, Ed Miliband did 52 keeps. Keeping our country

:47:53.:47:55.

together. We are better together.

:47:56.:47:59.

Together. Together.

:48:00.:48:02.

Together we can build a better future for the working people of

:48:03.:48:06.

Britain. Together a different idea for

:48:07.:48:07.

Britain. # Together Together.

:48:08.:48:14.

# Together Together we bring up our families.

:48:15.:48:17.

# Together. On this Britons pebble of together.

:48:18.:48:21.

Can the Tories be the answer? Together we can build a better

:48:22.:48:24.

future for the British people. Together we can make Britain

:48:25.:48:27.

prouder, stronger in the world. # Together.

:48:28.:48:33.

Together, thank you very much. # Go west On Wednesday we have a

:48:34.:48:43.

cloudy start to the day, the remains of old weather fronts across England

:48:44.:48:48.

and Wales producing patchy rain, it is clearing eastwards,

:48:49.:48:49.

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