25/09/2014 Newsnight


25/09/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Tonight from Syria, the exclusive testimony from one British Jihadi

:00:08.:00:20.

who knew the Brighton fighter, Ibrahim Kamara from Brighton killed

:00:21.:00:25.

earlier this Queening. He was an ordinary Muslim lad, he knew about

:00:26.:00:29.

people being oppressed and attacked because they are Muslims and he saw

:00:30.:00:34.

the solution was Jihad, and Jihad would protect them. These bombers in

:00:35.:00:39.

the skies above Iraq could be joined by British planes as early as

:00:40.:00:42.

tomorrow night if MPs approve it. On the eve of the vote we will ask is

:00:43.:00:46.

the gaping hole in the plan actually the lack of a strategy for what to

:00:47.:00:51.

do on the ground. The stories of the women who suffered at the hands of

:00:52.:00:56.

nuns in Irish convants are still being revealed. And only now are

:00:57.:01:01.

some mothers being reunited with the babies they were forced to give

:01:02.:01:07.

away. Carmel you don't blame me for anything, I couldn't, it wasn't my

:01:08.:01:19.

fault. It is an exhibition about slavery

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from a renowned South African artist, why has the Barbican bowed

:01:24.:01:34.

to activists and shut it down. An activist versus a leader of the

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campaign. Good evening, we begin tonight with

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an exclusive interview with a British Jihadi who knew Ibrahim

:01:44.:01:48.

Kamara, the 19-year-old from Brighton believed to be killed in an

:01:49.:01:55.

air strike outside Aleppo earlier in the week. As far as we know that

:01:56.:02:02.

Kamara, fighting for an affiliate group of Al-Qaeda was killed with a

:02:03.:02:07.

group of three other nationals. He flew out to Syria and joined a group

:02:08.:02:15.

of friends in Syria. Brighton, home to Ibrahim Kamara and

:02:16.:02:18.

three of his friends who also travelled to Syria. He was part of

:02:19.:02:28.

the Group A l-Nursra, and killed in an air strike. It is an affiliate of

:02:29.:02:35.

Al-Qaeda but less extreme than Islamic State, and has in places

:02:36.:02:39.

fought against them. I spoke to his friend also from Brighton, he and

:02:40.:02:43.

his younger brother are also fighting in Syria with the group. It

:02:44.:02:48.

is the main base my brother, he came to visit my area, and he stayed for

:02:49.:02:52.

a few days. Me and him were supposed to go back there to visit the

:02:53.:02:56.

brothers out there. This happened overnight. The group he was part of

:02:57.:03:04.

has been accused by human rights groups of acrossties. But Amit said

:03:05.:03:13.

Ibrahim wanted to help people. He was a funny guy, and wanted to help

:03:14.:03:17.

people and joked around. I have known him for six years. We used to

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go to the gym together. We used to go to the mosque. He was just a

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normal Muslim lad. He learned about his duty towards the people that are

:03:32.:03:37.

being oppressed, and being attacked because they are Muslims, and he saw

:03:38.:03:40.

the solution was Jihad thank would protect him. Can you understand why

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his mother would be so upset, she says he became radicalised? They are

:03:46.:03:54.

upset for the honour that he has been granted by Allah. Ibrahim has

:03:55.:03:59.

always asked for martyrdom. He used to say he really wanted it really

:04:00.:04:04.

bad. But if his family doesn't understand it is because maybe due

:04:05.:04:08.

to they don't have the knowledge of the virtues of Jihad and the virtues

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of martyrdom and sacrifice on the part of Allah. I understand at least

:04:14.:04:17.

three other men of British origin were also killed? I was close with

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them also, but I can't reveal their identity because you know when such

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people are known to be in Syria their families get harassed, even

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after they are killed. America says that unlike other air strikes these

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attacks weren't targeting IS, but a group linked to Jabatha, who they

:04:44.:04:46.

accuse of plotting attacks against the west? Have you heard of the

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group? I only heard it in the media, they had to come up with the group,

:04:53.:04:57.

and they were quoting America. What they need to understand is that it

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is not seen as something beneficial to hit the west from Syria. Because

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what that would do is it would close Syria, it would close on the people

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inside it and it will close any support that comes outside. The

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place where the British brothers were, they were at a recruitment

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base where wherever there was a balancele or fight they were drawn

:05:33.:05:36.

to it. Some people would say they are part of Al-Qaeda, terrorists? I

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would say if that is what you think what else can I do for you, you

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think that way. The majority of air strikes have targeted IS, who even

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other groups have accused of being too extreme. The air strikes against

:05:51.:05:56.

them could push them together. They are not considered people who have

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left Islam, they have left the right way of Islam and the way of the

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prophet in terms of extremism, but still they are Muslims. And if the

:06:05.:06:10.

American allies and America come on ground to fight IS then they should

:06:11.:06:16.

expect that all the other Muslims will work with IS against the

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enemies of Islam. America says it believes all the strikes it has

:06:22.:06:25.

carried out are important in combatting threats coming from

:06:26.:06:28.

Syria. And it is working alongside Arab Muslim countries. Ibrahim

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Kamara is unlikely to be the only British Jihadist to die, as the

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strikes continue. The mother of Ibrahim Kamara has

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said she was stunned at how quickly her son was radicalised. That

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appears to be a pattern among young Muslim men and women who travel to

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Jihad. Nine men including the radical preacher, Anjem Choudary,

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were arrested as being part of a banned organisation. Anjem Choudary

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once spearheaded a group, Al-Mahujiroun, a group disbanded in

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2010. Rachel You have been following Anjem Choudary for many years. What

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do you know about the Al-Mahujiroun network? He was one of the founding

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members. The nine arrests, including Anjem Choudary as you made clear. A

:07:26.:07:30.

very controversial figure, but security forces have told me he has

:07:31.:07:35.

always trodden finely on the right side of the law. Another source told

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me, Jihadis told me, amongst serious Jihadi circles he's considered

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something of a "fool", he doesn't have a strong reputation in Syria's

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Jihadi circles. Finally security forces told me today that the

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current arrests in London are not connected with the on going hostage

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crisis in Syria. So why arrest them now? Well that is a very good

:07:58.:08:04.

question. Of course the why now question is absolutely fascinating.

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The authorities have known about Choudary's network force 15 years, I

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have been following it for about that time myself. The arrests well

:08:11.:08:16.

really they raided about 19 properties today, they will be

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looking for new evidence of fundraising, glorification, or even

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supporting people who want to go and fight. Now if there is no new

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evidence found WAESHGS just don't know that at the moment. Then a lot

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of people will link these arrests to the on going, or the forth coming

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bombing strikes against ISIS. It will take extremists off the British

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streets, in essence. I think that is a reasonable thing to speculate on.

:08:40.:08:48.

You talked about hostages, th FBI said that they had identified the

:08:49.:08:53.

called "Jihadi John", the man responsible for the deaths of

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western hostages? Certainly he has appeared in the be heading and

:08:57.:09:03.

propaganda videos, the FBI have said they have identified him, he has a

:09:04.:09:08.

London accent, but they have not revealed his identity yet. Britain

:09:09.:09:15.

is now readying itself for combat in the Iraq calling itself IS. Going

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back to the war in the Middle East and carrying out air strikes as

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early as this weekend alongside other countries. When MPs finally

:09:27.:09:30.

vote on the issue, David Cameron will be fairly assured of the

:09:31.:09:33.

backing of the majority. Only because getting involved in Syria is

:09:34.:09:38.

for now off the table. As is the deployment of ground combat troops.

:09:39.:09:42.

Is there a long-term strategy for dealing with IS beyond bombing from

:09:43.:09:46.

the air. This amateur footing appears to show

:09:47.:09:51.

an oil refinery, hit last night. The latest strikes by the coalition

:09:52.:09:55.

against self-styled Islamic State. It is It is far cry from three weeks

:09:56.:10:00.

ago when President Obama seemed at sea. We are putting the cart before

:10:01.:10:07.

the horse, we don't have a strategy yet. But suddenly America does have

:10:08.:10:12.

a plan to curb IS. In Iraq, at least. The approach targets IS on a

:10:13.:10:19.

number of fronts, from the air by American jets, and from tomorrow

:10:20.:10:23.

night possibly British forces too. And there are boots on the ground,

:10:24.:10:29.

not ours, but the Iraqi army and the Kurdish Peshmerga who are getting

:10:30.:10:33.

training and equipment. The idea is to squeeze them from all sides. But

:10:34.:10:38.

in Syria things are very different. Yes, there are air strikes, but who

:10:39.:10:43.

can defeat them on the ground? That appears to be the gaping hole in the

:10:44.:10:51.

strategy. America plans to strengthen the Free Syrian Army,

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shown here in red, and other moderate rebels to fight IS. But the

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FSA has enough on its plate, dealing with President Assad's force, which

:11:01.:11:05.

holds the areas in orange. Washington's plan is to train 5,000

:11:06.:11:08.

rebel troops over the border in Jordan. But is that enough? Earlier

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today I asked the former American ambassador to Iraq whether the west

:11:16.:11:20.

was wrong to rule out boots on the ground? I do believe that and since

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in testimony before Congress last week and said it publicly. It is not

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good strategy to tell your enemy up front what you will not do. It is

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unreasonable to think that regional states will put boots on the ground,

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if we in the west are not prepared to do so. That's only one problem,

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the Free Syrian Army is supposed to be in the vanguard against IS, but

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they are in trouble. I think over the years we have seen dispute overs

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who is leading the FSA, who the main generals are, they have lost some in

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battle, others have gone abroad, so this will require restructuring of

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force, which is not well structured, and also boosting their more rail,

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where the more rail has been very low. The Free Syrian Army has been

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pushed back in recent months, in May it finally surrendered in a key

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strategic city of Homs. Two years of fighting ended with a one-way bus

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ticket out of the city. All sides are now converging on Aleppo,

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previously an FSA stronghold. A recent study described the FSA

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position as dire. A spokesman said they were fighting hard but

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desperate for western weapons. What we need is a real sophisticated

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weapons that we can fight and we can face ISIS with. Surface-to-air

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missiles to avoid the aircrafts and antitank missiles and more weapons

:12:55.:12:57.

to put in the hands of freedom fighters. So your message to

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President Obama and to Prime Minister Cameron is we need more

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weapons and we need them now? That's right. And propping up the FSA, can

:13:06.:13:13.

it really defeat a fighting machine as well funded and organised as IS?

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This is as grave a situation as I have seen in my entire career. The

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emergence of the Islamic State, its ability to take and hold ground is

:13:30.:13:38.

something we have never seen before. So Britain is about to enter the

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fray, but just in Iraq, and that is barely half the problem.

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General Sir Richard Sheriff has served as commander of British

:13:53.:13:56.

forces in Iraq 2006, joins us now from a dinner engagment. Thank you

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very much for joining us tonight. It is very likely that parliament will

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pass this motion tomorrow, and therefore, British warplanes will

:14:05.:14:08.

fly alongside others in the coalition and the so called

:14:09.:14:12.

coalition of the willing. Will air strikes defeat IS? Not on their own,

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no. They will cause serious damage to IS, but the only way that you are

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going to defeat IS long-term is through a strategy and I absolutely

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take the ambassador's point about not ruling out anything. You don't

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broadcast to your enemy what you are going to do. You have to be clear

:14:36.:14:39.

about what your end state is. You have to be clear about what the

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enemy's centre of gravity is, what is his source of strength. Then you

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design a strategy that targets that source of strength through multiple

:14:51.:14:52.

means. Air strikes are certainly part of it. But I would say that

:14:53.:14:56.

equally important, if not more important, is the ability to get on

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the ground with regional powers and train them to enable them to do the

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work. And part of that is certainly going to be done. When you look at

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what is up tomorrow, ruling out, going over the Iraqi border, ruling

:15:09.:15:12.

out any combat troops on the ground. Ruling out as it were a ground

:15:13.:15:16.

strategy. Why do you think there is this reluctance? I think you have to

:15:17.:15:20.

ask Mr Cameron that. But it is certainly from a military

:15:21.:15:24.

perspective, I think we have seen a collective, in a sense a collective

:15:25.:15:29.

loss of nerve, frankly. A real reluctance to get involved, and it

:15:30.:15:33.

has not just been in this particular case, but I think perhaps the

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impact, the concern, the impact of Iraq, Afghanistan, has come

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together, and I think the current Chief of Defence Staff put it quite

:15:44.:15:46.

well in a speech before Christmas where he talked about in a sense the

:15:47.:15:51.

concern that character of courage is being lost. I think we are looking

:15:52.:15:57.

pretty much like Johnny come latelies in the game. If we look

:15:58.:16:02.

like that, is it partly because after Iraq and Afghanistan that

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actually the mood of the British people is not to get involved in the

:16:05.:16:08.

long haul and not to seek British casualties? I don't know about the

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mood of the British people, I think that mood is we probably need to do

:16:14.:16:17.

what needs to be done. It is certainly the mood of British

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politicians though. You were a senior commander in southern Iraq,

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as you say, the experience of Iraq particularly was not a happy one in

:16:26.:16:29.

terms of that intervention. If we need to train and so forth, how do

:16:30.:16:34.

we need to approach this as a bigger problem in order to solve the

:16:35.:16:39.

problem of IS? Who needs to be involved? You have to have a

:16:40.:16:42.

regional strategy, that is clearly coming into place. You need

:16:43.:16:46.

international legality, and that equally is now pretty much in place.

:16:47.:16:52.

But you have got to give the, and I accept the notion of a sort of

:16:53.:16:56.

industrial scale deployment of troops as we saw for Iraq and

:16:57.:17:01.

Afghanistan is probably not what is required. But what is required and

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what mustn't be ruled out is close up proper training and capacity

:17:08.:17:10.

building. You are talking about the Iraqi army, we saw what happened

:17:11.:17:16.

with the Iraqi army and Mosul, who literally ran away in the face of

:17:17.:17:20.

IS. If you are talking about shoring up the Iraqi army, that won't happen

:17:21.:17:23.

in three months? It is not, and it won't happen. Can it be done, you

:17:24.:17:27.

were there? And what we must avoid is the mistake that was made last

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time round when Whitehall, the British chiefs of staff decided that

:17:35.:17:40.

to adapt a hands-off approach to training. There is no other nation,

:17:41.:17:44.

arguably, or very few other nations with the history of training

:17:45.:17:49.

indigenous forces, it requires the building of trust and confidence,

:17:50.:17:52.

you have to live and train together. If necessary you have to fight

:17:53.:17:56.

together. That is the key thing, you cannot rule out British forces

:17:57.:17:57.

fighting? And a good model, I would fighting? And a good model, I would

:17:58.:18:01.

suggest is what has happened in Afghanistan.

:18:02.:18:07.

Well we can go now to our diplomatic editor Mark Urban in the UN in New

:18:08.:18:12.

York. What have you been hearing about plans for the coalition in

:18:13.:18:14.

terms of any kind of ground operation? Well there are plans.

:18:15.:18:21.

Indeed we reported them on Monday, in the sense that there is a clear

:18:22.:18:25.

sense of who will be providing the air support, but also a clear sense

:18:26.:18:28.

of who will be providing the boots on the ground. Now that's American

:18:29.:18:34.

troops and possibly some British in Iraq, in the case of Syria it is

:18:35.:18:41.

countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates. That

:18:42.:18:45.

is clear here. The real issues with the strategy is firstly that the

:18:46.:18:50.

Free Syrian Army, called, is so much behind the Peshmerga and other

:18:51.:18:53.

forces in terms of its capacity, it will take a lot longer to get it up

:18:54.:18:57.

to any level in numbers and competence. Then as General Sheriff

:18:58.:19:04.

was saying, what is the end state and what does victory look like with

:19:05.:19:06.

the strategy and what does victory look like with

:19:07.:19:09.

putting forward. That is very hard to define, and must, as the

:19:10.:19:13.

President himself has been saying, not even be judgeable for

:19:14.:19:17.

two-to-three years. In your assessment, where do the Iranians

:19:18.:19:24.

position themselves selves, are they within this coalition or not? That

:19:25.:19:28.

is one of the most fascinating issues. Iran is clearly playing a

:19:29.:19:34.

role in Iraq, it has sent in combat aircraft and handed them over, it

:19:35.:19:37.

has people on the ground trying to stiffen the defences. It is clearly

:19:38.:19:41.

involved, yet today, earlier, we heard a speech by the Iranian

:19:42.:19:47.

President in which he tied any further co-operation or closer

:19:48.:19:49.

co-ordination on this with progress on the nuclear issue. We mustn't

:19:50.:19:57.

forget in all this headline-making about the Islamic State, this huge

:19:58.:20:02.

question about could the US and Iran actually become non-adversarial, and

:20:03.:20:07.

even allies it is all hinged on the resolution of the question of their

:20:08.:20:11.

nuclear programme. That has been the subject of intensive talks this

:20:12.:20:14.

week. So far it doesn't look like there is a resolution. As long as

:20:15.:20:18.

that remains the case, the President will take the line he did earlier

:20:19.:20:23.

today and this arms length relationship will go on. One other

:20:24.:20:28.

factor in that, the Saudis are making very big and significant

:20:29.:20:32.

steps in this. We saw their aircraft in action, bombing targets in Syria.

:20:33.:20:35.

We know their army will be training the FSA. We think their army will go

:20:36.:20:39.

into Syria to do stuff on the ground. They may well be saying we

:20:40.:20:43.

won't be part of an alliance that Iran is. We can explore that

:20:44.:20:50.

further. Because joining us now from Tehran is our guest from the

:20:51.:20:53.

University of Tehran, a strong supporter of the Iranian Government

:20:54.:20:57.

and the Assad regime in Syria. And we have Monzer Akbik, the Special

:20:58.:21:02.

Envoy for the Syrian National Coalition, a coalition of Syrian

:21:03.:21:06.

opposition groups and the Free Syrian Army. Just picking up what

:21:07.:21:14.

was said there. On Newsnight last week we reported a very senior

:21:15.:21:20.

Iranian commander in Iraq helping the Iraqi army. Is Iran likely to

:21:21.:21:28.

be, as it were, even an unofficial member of the coalition fighting IS?

:21:29.:21:35.

First I would like to point out that the description of me is a bit

:21:36.:21:42.

inaccurate. I think I'm just an associate professor at the

:21:43.:21:46.

University of Tehran. I think that the Iranians feel that they have

:21:47.:21:53.

played the most important role in supporting the Iraqi Government and

:21:54.:22:00.

containing ISIL in the region. Also the fact that the Iranians helped

:22:01.:22:05.

keep the Syrian Government from collapsing in the face of extremists

:22:06.:22:10.

and have been supported for four years by a very unholy coalition

:22:11.:22:17.

between the United States, European countries and extremist regimes in

:22:18.:22:23.

the Persian Gulf that have advocated Wahhabism. This alliance has gone on

:22:24.:22:28.

for decades and is basically what has led to the rise of extremism,

:22:29.:22:37.

not only in Syria but also in Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria

:22:38.:22:41.

and so on. The Iranian feels that while the United States and its

:22:42.:22:52.

partners have played an important role the Iranians have played an

:22:53.:22:55.

important role in preventing destruction. Could you see American

:22:56.:23:01.

and Iranians as allies in fighting IS? The problem is the Americans

:23:02.:23:08.

have a very poor track record. In the past the United States has

:23:09.:23:12.

worked with these countries to support extremists in Syria, and

:23:13.:23:17.

again now they have this coalition, a coalition of the guilty, which are

:23:18.:23:22.

the same countries that cause the cat it is catastrophy. These

:23:23.:23:29.

countries will be bombing Syria. In the past the United States and its

:23:30.:23:32.

allies disregarded sovereignty and helped create a Civil War. Now they

:23:33.:23:39.

are also disregarding Syrian sovereignty. Let me ask you, Monzer

:23:40.:23:46.

Akbik, which is your biggest enemy, is it Assad, or is it IS? Both of

:23:47.:23:53.

them. Right now there is no priority for us. About ten months ago there

:23:54.:23:58.

was a war started against ISIS, and we are fighting on go fronts since

:23:59.:24:04.

then. As we heard from Nick Hopkins, the FSA is in disarray, the

:24:05.:24:09.

leadership has been disbanded. You have retreated from Homs, you know

:24:10.:24:12.

in Aleppo you are fighting to the bitter end. You need help and you

:24:13.:24:18.

have got the Iranians calling you part of the terrorist problem. The

:24:19.:24:24.

Iranians are actually helping Assad to slaughter the Syrian people into

:24:25.:24:29.

submission. They are using this narrative that the rebels are

:24:30.:24:34.

terrorists, actually the rebels are the Syrian people, and they are

:24:35.:24:37.

being slaughtered by Assad with the help of the Iranians. They are

:24:38.:24:40.

giving him all the money and the weapons and the fighters to do so.

:24:41.:24:47.

But you are now going to get half a billion dollars from the Americans,

:24:48.:24:52.

for arms to train you and so forth? The situation of the Syrian army is

:24:53.:24:55.

not that dire, but it is very difficult, why? Because we are

:24:56.:25:01.

fighting on two fronts at the same time, and we are underresourced with

:25:02.:25:04.

the hardware. It would be fair to say at the moment you are not up to

:25:05.:25:07.

the job, and yet what the coalition is really doing is putting its faith

:25:08.:25:13.

in you to take on IS in Syria, is that realist snick We are up to the

:25:14.:25:17.

job, we have done a very successful job in the past ten months without

:25:18.:25:23.

the help of anybody. ISIS was kicked out from three or four provinces

:25:24.:25:27.

before they seized those weapons from Iraq and came back on to the

:25:28.:25:33.

offensive. We are fighting two months statement and we are

:25:34.:25:36.

ininflicting a good result with our fight. At the same time, in order to

:25:37.:25:40.

achieve a strategic advance, there should be changes in the way that we

:25:41.:25:45.

are armed and the way that we are provided with the ambition and we

:25:46.:25:50.

need sophisticated weaponry in order to achieve those advances. Now there

:25:51.:25:55.

is a reason for us to be cautiously optimistic, because we have cover

:25:56.:25:57.

from the air, from the international coalition, and we have the training

:25:58.:26:02.

and equipping programme, so now I think the situation will even become

:26:03.:26:06.

better. Very quickly, can I just ask you whether you think that

:26:07.:26:13.

supporting the FSA will be an aid to defeating IS in Syria? No, there is

:26:14.:26:20.

no such thing as the FSA, there are different groups, many of them are

:26:21.:26:32.

very extreme, they have worked in co-ordination with JabthaAl-Nursra

:26:33.:26:34.

and other groups on different occasions. The so called Free Syrian

:26:35.:26:39.

Army is not a united or unified force. If the United States really

:26:40.:26:43.

had so called moderates f they really wanted to find moderates in

:26:44.:26:46.

the past four years they would have found them by now. But unfortunately

:26:47.:26:51.

the United States is... Thank you very much I have to stop you there.

:26:52.:26:55.

the United States is... Thank you We have Alistair Burt with us, the

:26:56.:26:58.

former Foreign Office minister. Alistair Burt, I take it you are

:26:59.:27:05.

behind the motion tomorrow? Indeed. It is ill lodge

:27:06.:27:14.

It is illogical to join in air strikes with other members of the

:27:15.:27:19.

coalition and limit them to the Iraqi border and no troops on the

:27:20.:27:26.

ground isn't a strategy. ? Tomorrow is not covering the whole conflict

:27:27.:27:30.

with ISIL, it is an opportunity for the United Kingdom to take part in

:27:31.:27:33.

the first part of the containment strategy that the Prime Minister has

:27:34.:27:36.

been talking about with others. If we were to have a motion with others

:27:37.:27:41.

trying to encompass everything I would imagine the conversation would

:27:42.:27:43.

be different. What the Prime Minister is doing is being able to

:27:44.:27:47.

get support for attacking so called IS forces in Iraq with the support

:27:48.:27:51.

of parliament, but that is only one part of what we have been hearing

:27:52.:27:55.

about which is taking on a struggle about a complex enemy, that is

:27:56.:27:58.

threatening the region and us in a variety of different ways. It is

:27:59.:28:01.

extraordinary exactly how much change there has been in a year.

:28:02.:28:05.

extraordinary exactly how much were disappointed because you

:28:06.:28:07.

couldn't get support, very disappointed, because you couldn't

:28:08.:28:12.

get support to hit President Assad last year. Now Britain seems to be

:28:13.:28:15.

suggesting that you can't actually have air strikes over Syria because

:28:16.:28:19.

President Assad hasn't asked you in. But the Americans don't have any

:28:20.:28:23.

qualms about that, so why on earth should Britain? The problem last

:28:24.:28:28.

year is we had an opportunity to have a response to someone who used

:28:29.:28:35.

chemical weapons on his own people. The terrorist is Assad, he has

:28:36.:28:41.

killed 200,000 of his own people. Last year would have been an

:28:42.:28:46.

opportunity to put something in the balance against Assad and tilt the

:28:47.:28:49.

negotiations for peace in Syria. A year has gone by. What we have seen

:28:50.:28:54.

as a consequence of that, the extremists have got stronger,

:28:55.:28:57.

because they FWHOSHG league with Assad against the Syrian people.

:28:58.:29:02.

What tomorrow provides is an opportunity for us along with others

:29:03.:29:06.

to challenge that in Syria and in the rest of the region. What was

:29:07.:29:10.

also said is the best way to sort this out in Iraq is to work again

:29:11.:29:15.

with the Iraqi army, shore them up, give them the capability. Meaning

:29:16.:29:20.

British forces training them and perhaps fighting alongside with

:29:21.:29:23.

them. Will the Government wear that, will the British public wear that?

:29:24.:29:26.

We will have to see, we are a long way from that. What will happen

:29:27.:29:31.

first is the Iraqi Government gains the support of the Sunni community

:29:32.:29:36.

in Iraq. The Iraqi army have to be strengthened. The people fighting at

:29:37.:29:41.

the moment are the Peshmerga, and if the United States can provide half a

:29:42.:29:44.

million dollars support for them, why can't we. That is the ground

:29:45.:29:47.

support that can then accompany the air strikes and begin the

:29:48.:29:51.

containment strategy before other actions are needed fully to degrade

:29:52.:29:55.

what IS is doing throughout the region and us? The film Philomena,

:29:56.:30:05.

starring Judy Dench, showed one woman's experience of the horror

:30:06.:30:10.

kind convent calls. It seems the revelations never end. The Irish

:30:11.:30:14.

Government has announced another inquiry, the sixth into what went on

:30:15.:30:18.

in the institutions run by nuns for most of the 20th century. The home

:30:19.:30:25.

for single mothers, the orphanages and the infamous Magdelene L

:30:26.:30:49.

Laundaries. The discovery that some 800 babies had died at the home and

:30:50.:30:55.

their bodies put in unmarked and horribly inappropriate graves

:30:56.:30:58.

shocked the world. It is a sewage tank, why are there children buried

:30:59.:31:05.

in a sewage area. The subsequent outrage emboldened survivors of the

:31:06.:31:09.

homes, run by nuns all over Ireland to speak out. There were thousands

:31:10.:31:16.

of babies born here, there were hundreds of babies died, and I

:31:17.:31:20.

remember the nuns carrying down the brown shoe boxes to bury the

:31:21.:31:24.

children. There have been five KWIERNies into Ireland's religious

:31:25.:31:27.

institutions so far. Now there is another. Into the mother and baby

:31:28.:31:30.

homes. The survivors say they won't be fobbed off. We have found our

:31:31.:31:35.

voice and we're not going to be silent any more. They are determined

:31:36.:31:42.

not least because earlier reports, like that into the Madelene

:31:43.:31:55.

Laundaries failed to tell the truth. Laundaries where those deemed to

:31:56.:31:58.

have fallen short of the Catholic Church's strict code were forced to

:31:59.:32:04.

work, unpaid. At the birth of the Irish state in 1922, a cash-strapped

:32:05.:32:09.

Government was happy to delegate most welfare duties to the religious

:32:10.:32:14.

orders. It meant a girl born in a mother and baby home might go on to

:32:15.:32:19.

an orphanage, aptly called "industrial schools" at the time,

:32:20.:32:34.

and then on to a Magdelen home, so living her whole life in the

:32:35.:32:38.

institutions. Questions about the homes were asked when in the early

:32:39.:32:45.

1990s, the nuns who owned the convent in Dublin wanted to sell the

:32:46.:32:49.

land, where now there is a car park. The problem was that the plot they

:32:50.:32:54.

wanted to sell, which back in 1993 looked like an empty green field,

:32:55.:32:59.

was in fact filled with the bodies of former workers. I tracked down

:33:00.:33:07.

the gravedigger employed by the nuns to dig them up, and he agreed to

:33:08.:33:13.

give his first television interview. The nuns were trying to sell the

:33:14.:33:17.

place, and it was big money, so they didn't want anyone to know what was

:33:18.:33:21.

going on. It was all hush, hush. We were supposed to tell no-one about

:33:22.:33:28.

it. The nuns told him there were 133 women's bodies buried in the plot.

:33:29.:33:32.

So we kept bigging and bigging until we dug out the whole lot, we ended

:33:33.:33:37.

up with 22 more that we didn't even know were there. So 22 bodies that

:33:38.:33:42.

the nuns didn't know were there. And he found something else inside the

:33:43.:33:47.

grave. A lot of plaster of Paris, which was on their wrists, their

:33:48.:33:53.

arms, their legs, their feet, their ankles, there were broken arms and

:33:54.:33:58.

broken legs, it seemed to me like. The women were too small, they were

:33:59.:34:07.

too frail for that kind of work. People were shocked by the tale of

:34:08.:34:11.

unrecorded burials and broken limbs and began to ask what had been going

:34:12.:34:17.

on in the homes and why were so many sent there. Like Mary, born in a

:34:18.:34:23.

mother and baby home and sent to an orphanage, where, one day, she was

:34:24.:34:27.

so hungry she took an apple from an orchard. The nuns sent her to work

:34:28.:34:35.

in a laundry in Dublin. They took me to Hyde Park Convent, and they left

:34:36.:34:40.

me there and said now you stay there until you learn to stop stealing.

:34:41.:34:45.

How long did that take? I was 14 years there. Did you ever ask why

:34:46.:34:48.

you were there for 14 years for stealing an apple? I did ask them,

:34:49.:34:53.

and I asked was I ever going to get out of here, and am I going to die

:34:54.:34:58.

here. One of my jobs was to help to lay out the women when they died. I

:34:59.:35:05.

was happy to do it because at least the women were getting out and their

:35:06.:35:10.

suffering was over. When women like Mary told their stories, people

:35:11.:35:14.

asked how arbitary detention and slave labour were allowed to happen?

:35:15.:35:24.

The Government called on a senator, Martin MacAleese to start an

:35:25.:35:28.

inquiry. When he published his report last year, survivors were

:35:29.:35:32.

astounded that he didn't report on the conditions at the laundries,

:35:33.:35:39.

despite the many women who spoke of ill-treatment. Mary told him that

:35:40.:35:44.

she was so desperate that she broke a window and ran into the town and

:35:45.:35:49.

begged a priest for help. He raped her. I had never been out in the

:35:50.:35:53.

world in my life. And I had no idea what was going on, I was crying my

:35:54.:35:57.

eyes out and I said you are hurting me. Then when he was finished he

:35:58.:36:02.

said, now, this is between us, I'm going to give you sixpence, and this

:36:03.:36:06.

is between us he said, don't tell anybody. He said I'm only trying to

:36:07.:36:12.

help you. The police took her back to the laundry. The nuns didn't

:36:13.:36:16.

believe about the rape and put her in the punishment cell for running

:36:17.:36:21.

away. One of the nuns came down and cut my hair to the bone. Then I was

:36:22.:36:29.

taken up and I was made kneel in a room with all the women there, kneel

:36:30.:36:33.

down, kiss the floor and say I was sorry for what I did. By this stage

:36:34.:36:37.

Mary had been there for 12 years. sorry for what I did. By this stage

:36:38.:36:42.

And was afraid that she might never get out. After all, there were women

:36:43.:36:55.

who died there. Sue, that was my friend, Mary. She worked for the

:36:56.:37:01.

laundry for 56 years. And yet, according to the report, the

:37:02.:37:08.

average, or median duation of stay in the laundry was approximately

:37:09.:37:16.

seven months. By comparing head stones with electoral rolls, Claire

:37:17.:37:20.

discovered that for one ten-year period, most women at the Hyde Park

:37:21.:37:24.

laundry were there for a minimum of eight years. We have looked at

:37:25.:37:32.

electoral registers from 1954-1964, looking at Hyde park in particular,

:37:33.:37:39.

he we have been able to show at least 46% of these women from

:37:40.:37:45.

1954-1964, they never got out. I asked the nuns who

:37:46.:37:49.

1954-1964, they never got out. I for an interview, but they reviewed,

:37:50.:37:53.

we called on the headquarters in Dublin. I'm Sue Lloyd Roberts, I'm

:37:54.:38:02.

here from the BBC, this is a former laundry worker. You have already

:38:03.:38:06.

sent in a request and you got your answer to that request. Which is no.

:38:07.:38:11.

We have been refused an interview, but we have important questions to

:38:12.:38:14.

ask. All I wanted was fleeing somebody to give me an apology for

:38:15.:38:18.

what happened to me. That is all I wanted. We were clearly not going to

:38:19.:38:27.

be invited in. Goodbye now. The senator also turned down my request

:38:28.:38:33.

for an interview. But I was invited to meet with Ireland's Deputy Prime

:38:34.:38:36.

Minister. When I speak to these women, what they want is the truth

:38:37.:38:41.

to be told. Well we now have under way the process for preparing a full

:38:42.:38:48.

judicial report by very experienced judge who was involved. You admit

:38:49.:38:58.

the inquiry was less than thorough? The MacAleese inquiry was an inquiry

:38:59.:39:04.

at a point in time. It was recognition for what women had

:39:05.:39:06.

experienced and gone through. The women said it didn't, because for

:39:07.:39:10.

example the glossing over of the abuse, theturation of stay? I do

:39:11.:39:15.

know -- the duation of stay? I do know what is important for a lot of

:39:16.:39:19.

the women is that they would receive a redress payment. Compensation, or

:39:20.:39:25.

redress, as it is called in Ireland, is being paid to former laundry

:39:26.:39:29.

workers. But the Irish taxpayer is footing the bill. The nuns say they

:39:30.:39:36.

can't afford it. The nuns told the inquiry that they didn't make money

:39:37.:39:49.

from the lawned Laundries, but we found ledgers showing very healthy

:39:50.:39:53.

businesses. We have the airport, one of the country's main train

:39:54.:39:59.

stations, airlines, Government departments, like the Department of

:40:00.:40:07.

Fisheries, hotel, private individual, convents and seminaries.

:40:08.:40:17.

No wonder trade unions and commercial owners of a laundry

:40:18.:40:21.

business complained, they were competing with the nun who is had

:40:22.:40:25.

free and forced Labour. After they closed the nuns made more money from

:40:26.:40:30.

property sales. They have asseted estimated at over 1. 5 billion euro,

:40:31.:40:35.

but refuse to give any to survivors. That is you when you were baby. When

:40:36.:40:43.

they took you away from me. After Mary was raped she gave birth to a

:40:44.:40:48.

daughter, Carmel, the baby was taken by the nuns and put up for adoption

:40:49.:40:52.

and Mary was sent back to work in the laundry. For 40 years she only

:40:53.:40:58.

had a photo. You have to keep them forever now. I will. I will treasure

:40:59.:41:03.

them. I will treasure them. They will go into frames. Mary now lives

:41:04.:41:09.

in the UK. A few years ago with the help of British Association workers,

:41:10.:41:15.

Carmel found her. Mary is desperate to assure her daughter that she

:41:16.:41:19.

didn't give her away willingly. You don't blame me for anything? No. God

:41:20.:41:26.

no, don't. I couldn't, it wasn't my fault. We are not ashamed any more,

:41:27.:41:34.

we will speak out and fight back. Survivors argue that all the

:41:35.:41:37.

religious institutions are linked and they should be investigated

:41:38.:41:46.

together. Justice for our mothers and for the babies that's here. But

:41:47.:41:51.

the indications are, that when the Government announces the parameters

:41:52.:41:54.

of the new inquiry, any day now, it will have a narrow remit. They don't

:41:55.:42:02.

want to join the dots, we believe, between the mother and baby homes,

:42:03.:42:10.

and the laundries, they want to do the least amount possible. There

:42:11.:42:17.

were complaints the report wasn't thorough enough. Where. We believe

:42:18.:42:25.

the same will be the case with the next report. The survivors are

:42:26.:42:30.

afraid the story will never be told. I want somebody to apologise, the

:42:31.:42:34.

nuns, the church, the police, somebody to apologise to me, before

:42:35.:42:41.

I die. Are there limits to artistic

:42:42.:42:45.

freedom, this perennial debate has been given sharp focus by the

:42:46.:42:49.

decision of the Barbican in London to pull a major exhibition about

:42:50.:42:54.

slavery after claims by protesters that the exhibition was offensive,

:42:55.:42:57.

despite the fact it was previously shown at 12 cities, including the

:42:58.:43:01.

Edinburgh Festival. Exhibit B, as it is called by the South African

:43:02.:43:07.

artist, Brett Bailey, involves 12 tableaux that represent zoos and

:43:08.:43:12.

ethnic displays of the 19th century, that displayed Africans as objects

:43:13.:43:16.

of scientific curiosity. Here is a clip of it.

:43:17.:43:36.

Joining me now are the actress in the exhibition and the woman who led

:43:37.:43:45.

the boycott. First of all, what was the value to you of this exhibition?

:43:46.:43:52.

RMT The value of the exhibition was it was a piece about dehumanisation

:43:53.:43:59.

and humans created the base of art. A lot of words were thrown about

:44:00.:44:07.

chains and slaves, we looked Atajic toweds today in terms of immigrant

:44:08.:44:17.

-- we looked ed at attitudes today. Looking at the very near under

:44:18.:44:22.

colonialisation about how attitudes of supremacy lead people to believe

:44:23.:44:25.

colonialisation about how attitudes they are better and above and can do

:44:26.:44:29.

whatever they want. Why did you want an exhibition like this shut down? I

:44:30.:44:33.

didn't want it shut down, I wanted it withdrawn, I wanted the Barbican

:44:34.:44:38.

to understand it was offensive to the memory of our ancestors and

:44:39.:44:41.

offensive to the black community, the larger black community that

:44:42.:44:45.

spoke out. This isn't about individualism, it is about a

:44:46.:44:47.

collective of people saying actually this has gone too far, we have not

:44:48.:44:52.

received an apology for what happened, we haven't received

:44:53.:44:57.

holistic reparations which isn't about money, but holistic

:44:58.:45:00.

reparations. It was in very, very bad taste to our community. I would

:45:01.:45:05.

obviously completely disagree with that. I mean I am of Caribbean

:45:06.:45:11.

descent, I'm a direct descentant of slavery and I didn't feel the piece

:45:12.:45:16.

was offensive in any way. I thought it was thought provoking and

:45:17.:45:19.

educational for people. I didn't hear about human zoos until I came

:45:20.:45:24.

across it, they didn't tell us about that at school. There

:45:25.:45:34.

the Bronx Zoo up until the 1970s. Across the board anyone objectified

:45:35.:45:37.

I thought this was a relevant piece for that. Do you think there should

:45:38.:45:41.

be limits of artistic freedom, isn't it up to artists in way to break

:45:42.:45:47.

taboos? I think artists are free to create whatever they want. I'm not

:45:48.:45:54.

the cultural art Pleurx police, I think in this case there were so

:45:55.:45:59.

many underlying questions. This discussion we are having now, this

:46:00.:46:02.

should have happened before. It should have happened before. But if

:46:03.:46:08.

it happened before, presumably you would have felt you wanted to alter

:46:09.:46:12.

the artist's vision in some way? Not necessarily. You might have been

:46:13.:46:16.

happy to see the exhibition stand as it is? With the right consultation.

:46:17.:46:19.

What happened is there is no whiteness in that exhibition, all

:46:20.:46:26.

there is is black people standing in various cages with chains, they are

:46:27.:46:32.

very evidently there. Let's take one example that a French colonial

:46:33.:46:40.

military man used to tie up African women and rape them, and that way

:46:41.:46:44.

they would get money to feed their children. The dilemma was the

:46:45.:46:48.

children starving and did they put up with it. Are you saying what you

:46:49.:46:52.

wanted to do in that example was to have a white representation there? I

:46:53.:46:55.

think that needed to be there and balanced. Would that be too literal

:46:56.:47:01.

or not? This is history, these things actually happened, the artist

:47:02.:47:06.

didn't inthe treatment that happened, whether 200 or 400 years

:47:07.:47:10.

ago, if black people were used in the exhibitions the first thing that

:47:11.:47:13.

would have said is this did not happen to white people, why are they

:47:14.:47:20.

in the exhibition. They did it. Who did it? White people are responsible

:47:21.:47:26.

for the enslavement and colonialism. You are saying to use them in a

:47:27.:47:31.

tableaux based on a historical fact. It is the artistic eggs

:47:32.:47:35.

presidential. It is un-- expression. It is unbald. It is not, it is true.

:47:36.:47:40.

Do you think there is any relevance in your critque of this that the

:47:41.:47:45.

artist is white a privileged South African? He is privileged and a

:47:46.:47:50.

white South African. Does that make a difference to you? It needs to be

:47:51.:47:54.

questioned what his motives were. If a black person had done this crassly

:47:55.:47:59.

I would have still gone with the petition. Because it is about

:48:00.:48:03.

dignity, the dignity of our ancestors it is about their memory.

:48:04.:48:07.

Do you accept that for some people it might be offensive for this

:48:08.:48:13.

portrayal? Sorry, it is not a portrayal, this actually happened.

:48:14.:48:17.

Thank you very much. I am afraid that is all we have time for

:48:18.:48:35.

tonight. Good night. A windy night across Scotland, rain that should

:48:36.:48:38.

get blown out of the way. A lot more cloud in southern areas, misty first

:48:39.:48:42.

thing, but milder to start. That wind though making it feel chilly, I

:48:43.:48:45.

think, across parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland, compared with

:48:46.:48:50.

today. So 15-16 as opposed to the high teens, in fact across parts of

:48:51.:48:55.

eastern Scotland we had temperatures up to 21 today which is

:48:56.:48:57.

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