26/10/2015 Newsnight


26/10/2015

The government is defeated on tax credits. What now? Also Ben Bernanke is live in the studio. And should British laws still be transcribed on vellum?


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My Lords they have voted. Content to. Not content 272. Therefore the

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content has it. And with that, the Lords said to the

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government - we're up for a fight What was an argument over those cuts

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could have become a full-on constitutional confrontation,

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until the government appeared to David Cameron and I are clear that

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this raises constitutional issues that need to be dealt with. However

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it has happened and now we must address the consequences of that. I

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said I would listen and that is what I intend to do.

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Was the Lords right to take a stand, or was it out of order?

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And what is left of the government's plan to save money on welfare?

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He was the most important man in the world economy, dealing with the

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Former Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanake is here with us live.

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Why does every British law still have to be written on some of this?

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The Lords are either heroes of the people - resisting

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the worst excesses of the government as a second chamber should.

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Or they're oversized and unelected and trying to thwart

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It's not the first time we've heard the argument -

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but it turns out the radical left is on the side of the Lords tonight.

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What the Lords voted to do was force a delay on the government's

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It was a stance of arguable constitutional propriety, but it

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I believe we can achieve the same goal of reforming tax credits,

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saving the money we need to save to secure our economy whilst at the

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same time helping in the transition. That is what I intend to do at the

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Autumn Statement and I'm determined to deliver at the lower welfare and

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higher wage economy we were elected to deliver at the British people

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want to see. The chancellor conceding this

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evening that mitigating measures would be taken

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in his autumn statement. With me, our political editor

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Allegra Stratton and our economics A fairly amazing day. George Osborne

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was having a good run. This is the biggest U-turn he ever had to make.

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He has been in this post for six years and he is wounded on a number

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of levels this evening. Personally, politically wounded. A week ago

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people said they were adamant they were not to be shifting. They send

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out some heavy hitters to say they would not be shifting but it did not

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convince the Lords so he is politically wounded. He is also

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strategically wounded, he thought he would get it through both Houses of

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Parliament through a statutory instrument. And economically this is

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a saving of ?4 billion and if he is softening it in any way we have

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defined billions of pounds for the Autumn Statement in one month. And

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his rebranding is weakened, he was met to reposition the Tories as the

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party of workers. Boris Johnson, his people are cock-a-hoop, thinking it

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creates space for them to come through the middle. But whatever

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happens in one month, by the end of this Parliament tax credits will be

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performed in the way George Osborne would like. And that will be his

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legacy in the fullness of time. Just in the public finance terms, 4.4

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billion between friends, can he lose that? Well he would rest on what was

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called the pasty tax and that was small change compared to ?4.5

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billion. The problem is the Chancellor said tonight he will

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continue to save money and also mitigate the impact. It is hard to

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see how he will do that, hopefully all will be revealed at the Autumn

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Statement at the end of November. If your triple checked pensioners and

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take money from welfare, there will be losers. We do not know how much

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the mitigation would be but even if it was a complete reversal of that

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4.5 pounds, it sounds like a lot but the Chancellor Woods still just get

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to a surplus at the end of this Parliament. Not by very much but on

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current numbers he would still just about hit it. Economic week the

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difference between a small surplus and small deficit might matter a lot

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politically. Well there are two issues

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at play here - tax credit cuts, and the right of the Lords to have

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their say on them, or not. Our policy editor Chris Cook spent

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the day following the Lords debate. George Osborne announced a big shift

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at the July budget. The rabbit in his red box was a rise in the

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national minimum wage but offset by deep cuts to tax credits.

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The sheer scale of tax credits is subsidising lower wages in a way

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that was never intended. So those who oppose any savings to tax

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credits will have to explain how on earth they propose to eliminate the

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deficit, let alone run a surplus and pay down debt. At the time papers

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who had supported the Conservatives at the May election welcomed the

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move. Nonu went quite as far as the Daily Mail which canonised the

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Chancellor into Saint George. That all seems quite a long time ago.

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That Dragon now looks a bit weak. The tax credit cuts will take ?4.4

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billion from 3.3 million households. An average of over ?1300 a year. And

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the higher minimum wage will not close that gap. Disquiet about the

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tax credit proposals has been growing since they were first

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announced in summer and today they reached the House of Lords, just

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behind the aunt of the picture George and Dragon. Here are

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considering five potential puzzles ranging from out wide acceptance of

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the plans through to outright rejection. There is a question about

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how far the peers can go when dealing with a measure of this kind.

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There are two reasons why there has been controversy about the

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constitutional edition, regarding the convention of what the House of

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Lords can do. A statutory instrument is a small matter that goes through

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I much prefer a parliamentary process than ordinary law. It is

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presented to both chambers on a take it is presented to both chambers on

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Tay it basis. The House of Lords nominally has a veto but does not

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use it. And then it was a financial measures and traditionally the House

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of Lords does not get involved with financial measures. But we heard

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arguments on both sides about what is constitutional or

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unconstitutional and it is far from clear cut. In the event most years

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took the view that the code after all have a crack at this

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legislation. Baroness Hollis and Labour peer, put down one moment. It

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delays the desired to ask the government to provide transitional

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protection for families who are doing everything we asked of them.

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Who trusted the Prime Minister that tax credits would not be cut. And

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they trusted Parliament. My Lords when we said we would make work pay.

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The Lords passed the proposed amendments including that of

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Baroness Hollis. The voted to withhold consent of the cuts until

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the government gave protection for a minimum of three years to families

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who now receive tax credits. It is not comfortable for George Osborne

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being told by unelected peers that you're out of touch with the

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question is what he is going to do next. This problem is there are just

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no easy fixes on tax credits. There are options such as cutting income

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tax or national insurance. Tax credits actually are well targeted

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on low income families generally with children, who are in work. And

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so any change to the tax system would likely cost more money than

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the original tax credit saving. And be less well targeted on families in

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greatest need. There is another issue. This is the first majority

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Tory government since Labour removed the Conservative hereditary ramp

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from the House of Lords. It is always been defeating Labour

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government but now with the defeating the Conservative

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government for the first time because this is the first

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Conservative majority governments since that reform. And the party

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does not have a majority in the chamber. So we now have a situation

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where the Lords can challenge Conservative government from the

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left rather than a Labour government from the right which is quite a

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change in British politics and rather uncomfortable for this

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government. George Osborne says he is listening on tax credits but we

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do not know what he will do. He says the vote has issues that must be

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addressed. So a defeat for the government denied for sure but we

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just do not know what is to follow. Tonight it was a motion proposed

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by Labour's Baroness Hollis that caused this so-called

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constitutional crisis. She's just come from her victory

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in the Lords and is with us now. And so are two Tories of differing

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views about this prickly predicament for the government -

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the MP Jacob Rees-Mogg and activist Baroness Hollis, did you have any

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qualms at all about the constitution of what you were proposing? No, if

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the House of Commons wishes to claim financial privilege, which they are

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entirely entitled to do, on for example an amendment to a bill, it

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can be overturned in the Commons and the Speaker may give no reason and

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simply say we certified as a money issue and that is that. So the

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government could have done that, included it in the Welfare Reform

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Bill for example. It chose not to get the protection of financial

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privilege there. Secondly the government could if it had chosen,

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on the other route of financial privilege and put it into a money or

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supply finance bill. It did not do that either. So you feel entitled to

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have a go at it? Disagree government did not seek or claim financial

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privilege. Then when it comes up and says, actually, please assume we

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wanted financial privilege. We did not ask for it but give it to us

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anyway. Against that a 3 million people facing cuts. Jacob Rees-Mogg

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you suggested the government create 100 years to override the Lords

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decision. It is an extraordinary rich of the conventions and an

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attack on the House of Commons money privilege on ?4.5 billion of

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expenditure. Since 1860 this is the third occasion on which the House of

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Lords has overturned the Commons on something relating to taxation or

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expenditure. In 1868 was the painful duty would be liked, in 1909 it was

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the People's budget and now this. The argument on the Commons

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privilege on tax and expenditure long predates the creation of

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statutory instruments and... Why did the government not choose to do as

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Baroness Hollis suggests and introduce this as a financial

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measure. Because this House of Lords has never overturned a statutory

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instrument relating to money before. It has overturned a small

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number, four or five statutory instruments since 1968. They only

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came in in 1946. It is rare for the Lords vote down a statutory

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instrument and unprecedented for them to vote down one on spending

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four point ?4 billion. The government should have done what it

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greatly goes and claimed financial privilege. It does it all the time

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and it chose not to do it on this. And then afterwards said, please

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treated as though we did. This is an attack on the House of Commons and

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not on the government. It is the House of Commons Rutledge, the

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Democratic ridged to determine taxation and spending. It is a

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privilege inherit the subject matter. We have heard that debate.

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Are you still proposing the government should create 100 years?

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You think it now needs reform? There is a serious problem if the House of

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Lords is going to overturn conventions. Up until the removal of

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hereditary peers the Conservatives had an in-built majority but they

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observed the conventions because they wanted to maintain the House of

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Lords and said they were careful about exercising theoretical powers.

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It is now a left-wing majority in House of Lords which in six months

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of Conservative government has overturned the most important

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convention, the taxation and expenditure is the prerogative of

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the House of Commons and so the government needs to do something to

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govern effectively until 2020. Is there an appetite in the

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Conservative Party now to have a constitutional tussle with the House

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of Lords? I do not think so. And just a month ago, just after David

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Cameron has given his party conference speech, in which he

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relaunched the Conservative Party as a 1 nation Conservative Party, to

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try to stuff the House of Lords with 100 peers, to enact legislation that

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cuts the benefits of the working poor, that is

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cuts the benefits of the working for a party that is trying to

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present itself as blue-collar friendly. So it would be

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constitutionally difficult, but to do it for something that is so

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controversial, so officers to where David Cameron says he wants to take

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the Conservative Party, I do not think there is a chance in any

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rational political sense that the Conservatives would do this. There

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is a bit. It is not necessarily the most popular issue on which to

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create 100 peers. But if the Lords within six months are willing to

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overturn conventions, the government will have further controversial

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business to introduce between now and 2020. If Lords are going to

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break convention and overturn things that ought to go through smoothly,

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the government will have great walk years. -- more peers.

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In the President? Now, because they want the privilege, they should

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claim it. They want you to behave as though they did. The law is

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generally respects a manifesto commitments but unfortunately, this

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was not in the manifesto. There was talk of welfare cuts but from my

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experience, people did not think that those would be targeting people

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in work. They had a false, unrealistic image that it was people

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out of work. The government does not have the cover of a manifesto

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commitment. David Cameron, as you know, made a public pledge twice

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that they would not cut tax credits. But it was more ambitious than that.

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The unelected house works properly when it will praise the conventions.

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If this is a sign of regular breaches of convention, and the Lib

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Dems have said they will not necessarily follow the convention,

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then the Lords will need more appears to make sure the government

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can get its manifesto through. What will the government to do about

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this? George Osborne says there will be something in the Autumn

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Statement. What would satisfy you? As a sensible way forward, I would

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like to insure that the cuts only affect new claimants. Not existing

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families, families who have done what we have asked for and have

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built their life around what they are getting from the wage and income

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support. Those families need this money. I have been reading letters

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and e-mails from people saying, I am terrified when the Christmas letter

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comes with the knot of occasion that I will lose ?3000 on a low

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income... So new rules on new claimants but the old rules apply

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for three years on old claimants? Exactly. Is this a retreat that will

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ultimately benefit the government because it was turning out to be a

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political headache and it was going to come back to the Commons. Some

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said there might be more issues. And now, actually, it has a chance to be

:17:11.:17:19.

dealt with. There is a difference in interest between George Osborne and

:17:20.:17:24.

the Conservative Party. It has probably heard George Osborne's

:17:25.:17:28.

authority. No chance likes to make a U-turn. This could have been very

:17:29.:17:32.

difficult for the Conservative Party. There was evidence that 71

:17:33.:17:38.

constituencies, the 71 most marginal Tory MPs, the number of people

:17:39.:17:43.

affected was greater than the majorities. Of course you have to

:17:44.:17:49.

cut the deficit but when at the same time you are cutting inheritance tax

:17:50.:17:52.

for the wealthy, when we have evidence that pensioners are better

:17:53.:17:57.

off than the average citizen, that they are getting a 2.5% increase in

:17:58.:18:01.

pensions, when inflation is falling, to make these kinds of cuts

:18:02.:18:05.

to the working poor, when the Conservative Party is presenting

:18:06.:18:11.

itself as creating so many jobs, this is a bad position for the

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Conservative Party. On the substantive issue, the only thing

:18:16.:18:21.

worse than the U-turn was to actually do the original plan. It is

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difficult. The Chancellor had ?4.5 billion worth of savings lined up

:18:27.:18:30.

from a budget that had gone from 1 million times -- ?1 billion to ?30

:18:31.:18:34.

billion. It was an expensive programme and we know that cuts need

:18:35.:18:38.

to be made to balance the books. Chancellors have to make difficult

:18:39.:18:44.

decisions. I think conservatives sometimes have to supports

:18:45.:18:47.

chancellors with the means when they are difficult. Not all decisions and

:18:48.:18:51.

government are easy. Old chancellors, good chancellors take

:18:52.:18:56.

difficult decisions and stick to the thrust of them. But targeting the

:18:57.:18:59.

working poor, was that really what we came into politics to do? The

:19:00.:19:04.

government has made clear that the package as a whole will make sure

:19:05.:19:08.

that people benefit. That is not true. I trust the government. You

:19:09.:19:15.

might think I am naive but when the Chancellor says that the overall

:19:16.:19:19.

package will insure that nine out of ten people are as well-off... That

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is you and I. Eight out of ten is you and I. Its people getting tax

:19:25.:19:33.

credits. It isn't, it isn't. You are right on that particular point. It

:19:34.:19:43.

is benefits to help people with children in nursery education and so

:19:44.:19:47.

on. The Chancellor has to make difficult decisions, and we have to

:19:48.:19:50.

balance the books. One final question. What did you think you

:19:51.:19:56.

were doing in the election campaign to put in ?12 billion of welfare

:19:57.:19:59.

cuts, unspecified. Where were they going to come from? I will let you

:20:00.:20:04.

into a secret. The Conservatives did not expect to win the general

:20:05.:20:07.

election. There were promises made that they thought would be traded

:20:08.:20:11.

away in coalition negotiation. Things like the right to buy for

:20:12.:20:16.

housing associations. The Tories did not expect to have to make those

:20:17.:20:20.

cuts. And of course, they are discovering the difficulties. We

:20:21.:20:22.

will leave it there. It is amazing to reflect on the fact

:20:23.:20:24.

that in the last few decades, professional economists have had

:20:25.:20:27.

more power over economic policy than ever before, running independent

:20:28.:20:29.

central banks around the world. And yet, in no time,

:20:30.:20:35.

the world was engulfed by the worst economic crisis anyone could

:20:36.:20:37.

remember - that financial crash One man who was right at the

:20:38.:20:40.

centre of things was Ben Bernanke, an economist whose specialist

:20:41.:20:51.

subject was the depression of the 1930s and who ended up in charge

:20:52.:20:53.

of the US central bank for the great recession of the 2000s,

:20:54.:20:57.

and who has just written I am honoured to announce that I am

:20:58.:21:06.

nominating Ben Bernanke to be the next chairman of the Federal

:21:07.:21:07.

Reserve. His timing could have hardly have

:21:08.:21:09.

been worse - He got to the post just

:21:10.:21:11.

in time to get his feet under And what

:21:12.:21:16.

a storm it turned out to be. Meltdown on the markets as Wall

:21:17.:21:26.

Street is left reeling from some of the biggest blows in its history.

:21:27.:21:28.

Perhaps the key moment of the crisis was the collapse

:21:29.:21:30.

Ben Bernanke had hoped that a rescue might have been orchestrated,

:21:31.:21:37.

The UK, scared of inheriting Lehman's

:21:38.:21:40.

Lehman toppled, and with it, confidence in the world's banks.

:21:41.:21:46.

The next six years of Chairman Bernanke's career was spent

:21:47.:21:53.

Including putting hundreds of billions of dollars into the US

:21:54.:22:01.

economy through quantitative easing. What better career

:22:02.:22:03.

for someone who'd once been a young professor, studying the mistakes

:22:04.:22:05.

of economic policy in the past? And he hasn't changed a bit in all

:22:06.:22:15.

those years. Ben Bernanke is with us. Good evening. Could we go to

:22:16.:22:19.

that Lehman Brothers collapsed moments? I think some US policy

:22:20.:22:24.

makers, deep down, blame the Brits for stopping Barclays taking over

:22:25.:22:28.

Lehmans, which would have made an enormous difference. It was a

:22:29.:22:33.

crushing blow at the time because the British would not allow Barclays

:22:34.:22:39.

to acquire Lehman Brothers. But a couple of things, I understand why

:22:40.:22:42.

the Chancellor did not do it. He did not want the bad assets to end up on

:22:43.:22:47.

the British taxpayers doorstep. And we tried desperately to save Lehman

:22:48.:22:51.

Brothers. Even if we had saved them, something would have failed

:22:52.:22:55.

eventually because Congress would not act until they saw the

:22:56.:22:58.

consequences of a failure. So there would have been a big crisis?

:22:59.:23:05.

Eventually, I am afraid, yes. Your political journey comes off in the

:23:06.:23:10.

-- comes across in the book, you start off as a small government

:23:11.:23:14.

Republican and become persuaded that there is a role for government. You

:23:15.:23:20.

talk about having to stop people buying certain products like

:23:21.:23:23.

inflammable pyjamas for children. And I don't think you had the view

:23:24.:23:26.

at the beginning, you thought there would be more personal

:23:27.:23:29.

responsibility. Tell us about that journey. I always took a moderate

:23:30.:23:34.

position. I think the market is critical for a good economy but the

:23:35.:23:38.

government has a role to play. I think the party left me because the

:23:39.:23:43.

tea party and the extremes of left and right left me in the middle, and

:23:44.:23:47.

many other Americans, I think, who would like a more balanced approach.

:23:48.:23:53.

Unfortunately that is not worry are right now. Who would you vote for in

:23:54.:24:02.

the next election? I don't know what I am registered. I did not vote as a

:24:03.:24:06.

matter of principle when I was chairman. Those on the left look

:24:07.:24:13.

back at the last 30 years of the neoliberal consensus, neoliberal

:24:14.:24:17.

economics, and they see that as an ideological stands, that the world

:24:18.:24:22.

took, after Thatcher and Reagan. Are they right to see it as

:24:23.:24:26.

ideologically or is that just technocrats doing their best for the

:24:27.:24:31.

world? I think in the case of the financial system, there was too much

:24:32.:24:34.

deregulation. The regular system was put together in the 30s during the

:24:35.:24:38.

great depression and it did not keep up with what happened, the

:24:39.:24:42.

innovations and change, and so when the crisis came, we did not have the

:24:43.:24:46.

tools and the vision. We could not see what was going on. I am not sure

:24:47.:24:51.

I would indict the philosophical approach. I think we need good

:24:52.:24:55.

regulation and that is what is happening now. What about austerity?

:24:56.:25:20.

In the book and in subsequent interviews, you have criticised

:25:21.:25:22.

governments for pushing too hard on the fiscal retrenchment, leaving a

:25:23.:25:25.

lot of pressure on you guys doing the monetary policy to put your feet

:25:26.:25:27.

on the accelerator while the government is putting their feet on

:25:28.:25:29.

the brakes. Was that ideologically? It was very practical. I think too

:25:30.:25:32.

much burden has been put on central banks to carry the recovery. The

:25:33.:25:34.

fiscal policy has focused too much on short-term cuts and austerity. I

:25:35.:25:37.

think when you have millions of unemployed, it is not the time to be

:25:38.:25:40.

making sharp cuts, to be doing sequester us and fiscal clefs and

:25:41.:25:42.

all the things that have happened in the Congress. What about the -- what

:25:43.:25:45.

about Europe and the UK? I think it depends on the circumstances. Greece

:25:46.:25:49.

is not going to do fiscal expansion but a country like Germany has scope

:25:50.:25:55.

to do that. And the UK, I am not an expert but I think the UK was

:25:56.:26:00.

somewhere between the Europeans and the US and it has had a decent

:26:01.:26:04.

recovery, as you know. The UK fiscal stands is coming to a neutral

:26:05.:26:10.

position. It was a little tight early on and perhaps they could have

:26:11.:26:15.

done better. I asking because we have this charter for budget

:26:16.:26:19.

responsibility which will mandate a budget surplus under normal

:26:20.:26:23.

circumstances. Would you consider that fiscally responsible or

:26:24.:26:27.

irresponsible, making the life of central bankers harder? It depends.

:26:28.:26:32.

If you are in a recession and the period of high unemployment, I think

:26:33.:26:36.

you need to be prepared to have a deficit in those situations, and

:26:37.:26:41.

understand that in periods of rapid growth, you will concentrate on

:26:42.:26:44.

that. I would not want to do that all the time. But do you want a law

:26:45.:26:49.

that says you have to have a surplus except under predefined

:26:50.:26:53.

circumstances? I think that you want to have the flexibility to respond

:26:54.:26:59.

to national emergencies. In particular response to recession

:27:00.:27:04.

is, like a deep one we have just come out of. Looking back at the

:27:05.:27:09.

crisis, clearly the public were left quite angry, with the sense that

:27:10.:27:12.

they picked up the bills and other people got away with it. Bluntly, do

:27:13.:27:17.

you think more bankers should have been put in jail? I think the

:27:18.:27:21.

Department of Justice's strategy could be more focused on individual

:27:22.:27:26.

responsibility. They find the big institutions billions of dollars.

:27:27.:27:30.

What was the individual responsibility? I don't think we

:27:31.:27:33.

know the answer. Because we didn't bother to look. That was my concern.

:27:34.:27:41.

Let's talk about the policy regime. If you were writing a note, you were

:27:42.:27:48.

going to write it on vellum and bury it. If it was a letter to

:27:49.:27:52.

policymakers in 60 years' time, giving them the benefit of your

:27:53.:27:56.

advice, having been through this crisis, what would the pithy single

:27:57.:28:05.

piece of advice be? I think when the situation is looking benign, that is

:28:06.:28:10.

when the risk is building, so be vigilant. And that was the story of

:28:11.:28:14.

the precrisis power-down? That was what happened. And how do we get out

:28:15.:28:20.

of the paradox? Vigilance. If we look carefully and pay enough

:28:21.:28:25.

attention, then we can withstand the shocks. But you are great land of --

:28:26.:28:31.

a great fan of inflation targeting. We were looking for inflation but we

:28:32.:28:35.

did not have it. Meanwhile, a wolf came in the back and did a great

:28:36.:28:40.

deal of damage to financial stability. Do you concede that you

:28:41.:28:44.

need a financial instability remit in monetary policy as well as an

:28:45.:28:50.

inflationary policy? With the central bank -- the central bank,

:28:51.:28:56.

the Fed has extensive resources to monitoring -- devoted to monitoring

:28:57.:29:00.

for problems. Monetary policy does not have to do everything. I think

:29:01.:29:05.

regulation, supervision, oversight, macro credential policies, those are

:29:06.:29:10.

the first line is that we should take. And how we rectify these

:29:11.:29:14.

problems? We will never do that completely but we have made

:29:15.:29:15.

progress. Ben Bernanke, thank you. How should teachers deal with pupils

:29:16.:29:19.

whose behaviour is out of control? They are allowed to use force

:29:20.:29:22.

as a last resort, but unions have told Newsnight that an increasing

:29:23.:29:25.

number of their members are worried if they do so - even in quite

:29:26.:29:28.

legitimate circumstances - they Secunder Kermani spoke to one

:29:29.:29:31.

headteacher who nearly lost For these children this classroom is

:29:32.:29:46.

their last chance of staying within the school system. Social and

:29:47.:29:49.

emotional difficulties mean other schools have not been able to handle

:29:50.:29:54.

them. It also means that at times dealing with them can be

:29:55.:30:02.

challenging. This is how teachers in both special

:30:03.:30:06.

education and mainstream schools are taught to physically restrain

:30:07.:30:11.

pupils. It is always meant to be a last resort, never a punishment. The

:30:12.:30:15.

need to protect the child and others around them. But of course it is

:30:16.:30:20.

controversial and can have serious consequences for the child and for

:30:21.:30:28.

the teacher. Trystan Williams had won awards as a

:30:29.:30:31.

headteacher dealing with challenging pupils at mainstream schools. Two

:30:32.:30:40.

years ago he tried to help avoid who was at risk of seriously harming

:30:41.:30:44.

himself. And it almost cost him his career. I attempted to lift the

:30:45.:30:50.

young man up. In the process of trying to lift him off the floor he

:30:51.:30:54.

pulled me down on top of them and sustained an injury. I was alone

:30:55.:30:59.

with the child and under the circumstances sadly, the external

:31:00.:31:05.

agencies felt I had a sort of the young man. I just thought I had

:31:06.:31:10.

winded him, I had no idea of the catastrophic events that were going

:31:11.:31:16.

to happen. Trystan Williams was suspended and subject to a police

:31:17.:31:19.

investigation. After 12 months he was cleared and returned to work in

:31:20.:31:25.

another school. To have that taken away from you for simply trying to

:31:26.:31:28.

do your best, it actually drove me to consider... Whether I should

:31:29.:31:39.

still be here. You know. And when that happens, you think I have

:31:40.:31:47.

sacrificed a lot for transforming lives and this is the way I get

:31:48.:31:50.

treated for trying to do my best. That is difficult to come to terms

:31:51.:31:56.

with. Then when my wife, obviously she needed support and my boys are

:31:57.:32:01.

having psychiatric counselling and help. Because they could not sleep

:32:02.:32:08.

at night and did not want to go to bed in case daddy got locked up.

:32:09.:32:14.

That was hard working. Trystan Williams's case is extreme but not

:32:15.:32:18.

the only one. We have heard of other examples of investigations going on

:32:19.:32:22.

for months before teachers are eventually cleared. At times some

:32:23.:32:25.

have even been driven out of the profession. We are dealing with a

:32:26.:32:30.

couple of cases per month on average that has come to a difficult

:32:31.:32:34.

situation where someone has been suspended or faces some kind of

:32:35.:32:38.

challenge as the result of that. That hides many more were decisions

:32:39.:32:43.

had not been made upon public and were perhaps children who should

:32:44.:32:46.

have been restrained have not been restrained because professionals are

:32:47.:32:49.

not certain as to their powers and rights. The Department for Education

:32:50.:32:55.

guidance states teachers should not be suspended automatically when a

:32:56.:32:59.

complaint is made. And that 90% of investigations should be completed

:33:00.:33:05.

within three months. Unions believe that is not happening. The last time

:33:06.:33:09.

the Department for Education counted, 74% of cases concluded

:33:10.:33:12.

within the time. They do not have up-to-date figures but advise

:33:13.:33:17.

schools that cases should be swiftly investigated. Allegations of misuse

:33:18.:33:23.

of restraints are serious. In August the school in Devon was closed down

:33:24.:33:28.

as police examined claims that staff used excessive force on pupils. And

:33:29.:33:35.

this is footage of primary pupils in Tottenham being restrained last

:33:36.:33:40.

year. The school and council reviewed safeguarding procedures and

:33:41.:33:45.

Ofsted cleared them of wrongdoing but some parents were furious. How

:33:46.:33:51.

often are you in scenarios where a restraint is one of the options?

:33:52.:33:55.

Teachers at the school managed to dramatically reduce the number of

:33:56.:33:58.

restraints they use by concentrating more on de-escalation. September it

:33:59.:34:03.

49 times, the September just one time. But the knowledge that

:34:04.:34:08.

restraining a pupil could end their career is a constant concern. I was

:34:09.:34:13.

suspended for eight months. After two weeks the police had

:34:14.:34:16.

investigated and cleared me. But you go through the emotional stresses

:34:17.:34:23.

and strains of waiting for governors to confirm the decision that you can

:34:24.:34:27.

come back to school, come back to work. You're not necessarily given

:34:28.:34:33.

the protection that we deserve as professionals. Nobody wants to do

:34:34.:34:39.

it. It is dreadful for them, horrendous for us and at the end of

:34:40.:34:41.

it you over analyse everything constantly. What could I have done,

:34:42.:34:47.

could I have done that differently. It is a horrible situation to be in

:34:48.:34:55.

but at times it is necessary. Bernard Allen helps to train

:34:56.:35:01.

teachers and acts as an expert witness. He says there needs to be

:35:02.:35:05.

more consistency on how guidelines on the straights are set out. It is

:35:06.:35:15.

better management and supervision required to stop the bad people

:35:16.:35:17.

abusing the powers. But the moment it is decided in different areas of

:35:18.:35:22.

the country by different individuals. What is good actors in

:35:23.:35:27.

Dorset is considered abuse interim and that is the situation we have

:35:28.:35:29.

had for 25 years. Trystan Williams and that is the situation we have

:35:30.:35:37.

is now headteacher at another school but worries that what happened to

:35:38.:35:40.

him could still happen to other professionals. That could happen to

:35:41.:35:46.

anybody in a school similar to mine. Wrong place, wrong time. Complex

:35:47.:35:54.

situation, trying to do the best. And your life will never be the same

:35:55.:35:55.

again. Trystan Williams ending that report

:35:56.:35:57.

by Secunder Kermani. We started on tax credit cuts -

:35:58.:36:00.

let's finish with another idea A committee of MPs has suggested

:36:01.:36:02.

that ?80,000 could be saved if acts of parliament were no

:36:03.:36:07.

longer printed on vellum made At the moment,

:36:08.:36:10.

the practice is to print two such copies of each act, one

:36:11.:36:16.

for the National Archive and one for A key feature

:36:17.:36:19.

of vellum is its longevity. Replace vellum with paper -

:36:20.:36:23.

even the most expensive, thick kind of paper that you buy

:36:24.:36:26.

at the poshest of stationery shops Well, we have some vellum now,

:36:27.:36:32.

live in the studio. I'm with Paul Wright who runs

:36:33.:36:36.

the last surviving vellum works Good evening. How does this get

:36:37.:36:47.

turned into a piece of act of Parliament, for example M if we go

:36:48.:37:01.

back to the start, one of the supermarkets put in an order for

:37:02.:37:04.

beefburgers and we going and take a by-product. Not killing animals for

:37:05.:37:12.

this? It is just going in the bin. Then we go into this 1000 -year-old

:37:13.:37:17.

process of soaking it, getting the skin to the and then setting to with

:37:18.:37:30.

this what is called a lunar. Literally we shave and scrape. You

:37:31.:37:35.

do not do this by hand M everything is done by hand. We have no machines

:37:36.:37:40.

to do it. It takes about seven years. And this is why it costs ?14

:37:41.:37:47.

for a sheet. It was but into that ?14, what do we get for that? You

:37:48.:37:53.

get about 5000 years of secure data storage. The world... It sounds like

:37:54.:38:03.

a long time. Looking at the dead Sea Scrolls, found in the back of a

:38:04.:38:10.

cave, 2400 years after they had been written. They were stumbled across.

:38:11.:38:17.

That is a long time. Can find no reduce something that can do better

:38:18.:38:22.

than this? Sadly for silent -- the science and gladly for me, they

:38:23.:38:28.

cannot. We got involved with a project in 2000 and people wanted to

:38:29.:38:33.

bury data for 1000 years and went all round all the technology

:38:34.:38:37.

companies in the world saying, convince us that in the year 3000,

:38:38.:38:41.

we can recover this data and it will be good. Who do you sell it to,

:38:42.:38:48.

apart from the records office? It goes to calligraphers, illuminators,

:38:49.:38:55.

botanical artists, hobbyists. It goes all over the world. We are

:38:56.:39:01.

considered the finest in the world. What to use to write on it? Cast

:39:02.:39:07.

your mind back to the Bronze Age, if they managed to do it with a bit of

:39:08.:39:12.

Bernard Twigg, everything forward of that works. If you want to do it

:39:13.:39:19.

with a Biro, that will work fine. If you want longevity it is the ink

:39:20.:39:24.

that becomes the limiting factor. If you take an archival ink and applied

:39:25.:39:30.

to this than I could give you a piece today and you could write and

:39:31.:39:33.

it would be round in a thousand years. Could I print a photograph of

:39:34.:39:38.

my other half on this cruel printer in my lounge? Absolutely. So there

:39:39.:39:44.

is a market, people would love something that costs ?14. We do do

:39:45.:39:53.

things, we have printed best man speech is, specialist speeches from

:39:54.:40:00.

father to daughter, all kinds of things. Good luck with the business,

:40:01.:40:04.

that is really interesting. It has been a pleasure.

:40:05.:40:07.

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