Browse content similar to 11/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
# I've got scars that can't be seen. # | :00:09. | :00:19. | |
One of the premier talents of 20th century music | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
It's only in retrospect that we can properly evaluate his musical | :00:24. | :00:40. | |
Does he deserve the uncritical adulation he's getting today? | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
We'll hear from his sometime collaborator Nile Rodgers, | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
along with Tom Robinson, Bernard Sumner and the curator | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
of the Bowie exhibition, Victoria Broackes. | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
And of course we'll hear plenty from the man himself. | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
Do you think of yourself as Bowie or David Jones, | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
I don't even know how to pronounce it any more, | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
Also tonight, there is some other news. | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
What the public think of tomorrow's doctors' strike. | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
We'll discuss the results of a Newsnight poll on the subject. | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
Newsnight hears of problems for the independent | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
to give evidence to this inquiry because we don't have confidence | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
in the way that our evidence is going to be handle | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
We don't believe it's an independent inquiry. | :01:34. | :01:45. | |
Sometimes on these occasions, the death of a national icon, | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
people will say "It was as though we knew them personally". | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
With David Bowie, I'd suggest it is different. | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
We knew him, but he was not the man next door. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
The master of alter ego and adaptation through his career, | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
he remained elusive and enigmatic to the end. | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
And yet he was also familiar and ever-present. | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
There's been a lot of looking back today, but here is Stephen Smith | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
with his assessment of David Bowie and his career. | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
Despite all the costume changes, it's striking how unchanging Bowie | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
Single-minded, his own man, the star we know was remarkably | :02:23. | :02:33. | |
The nucleus of some of his friends, a 17-year-old David Jones has just | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
founded the Society for the prevention of cruelty | :02:41. | :02:42. | |
I think we are all fairly tolerant, but for the last two | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
years, we have had comments like, darling, can I carry your handbag | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
But does this surprise you, that you get this kind of comment? | :02:54. | :03:04. | |
Because we have got really rather long-haired, haven't you? | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
I was learning about how to play rhythm and blues, | :03:07. | :03:14. | |
learning how to write, finding everything that I read, | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
every film that I saw, every bit of theatre, | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
everything went into my mind as being in influence. | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
Bowie as his first great alter ego Ziggy | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
Every persona he put on was like a disguise to help him | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
slip across the border from pop to something bigger. | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
They said he was coming round the back. I have been waiting ages to | :03:41. | :04:00. | |
see him. Who are you so upset? He's smashing. | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
I thought you were doing an intro. Right. One. I was not a natural | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
performer. I didn't feel at ease on stage, ever. I felt really | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
comfortable going on stage as somebody else. And it seemed a | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
rational decision to keep on doing that. So I got quite be soed with | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
the idea of creating character after character. | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
# Fame # Makes man who takes things over | :04:34. | :04:35. | |
# Fame... # I wanted on to the instigator of new | :04:36. | :04:51. | |
ideas. I wanted to turn people on to new things and new perspectives. | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
Nothing you have seen or heard about David Bowie will prepare you for the | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
impact of his first dramatic performance, in The Man Who Fell to | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
Earth. This is another dimension of David | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
Bowie, one of the few true originals of our time. | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
Five year, that's all. I'll be back. The man who played the part of a pop | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
star to perfection became a screen actor. For better or worse he was | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
always David Bowie. He will land on his feet. | :05:30. | :05:38. | |
# Let's Dance # Put on your red shoes | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
# And dance the blues # Let's Dance | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
# To the song they're playing on the radio. # | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
I think we are out of characters now. I am just into suits and the | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
suit will change from tour to tour but the bloke inside is generally | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
much the same. Which is the real David Bowie? The lad from Brixton, | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
the pop megastar to coin a phrase. I will bring him on. Or the | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
40-year-old yuppy with the son at private school. I think it is all. | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
Yuppy? Get out of here! # Golden years # | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
He might have got rid of his post-war British teeth but not his | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
accent. Although he seemed to spend the last years of his life in | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
Manhattan, he was still one of ours. I think I have sold out to be | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
honest. It is difficult, to keep integrity when you are going for | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
that... # Little fat man who sold his soul | :06:46. | :06:53. | |
# # Chubby little loser. # | :06:54. | :07:03. | |
# Chubby little loser # National joke. # | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
Not thupy little loser. # Pathetic little fat man | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
# No-one's laughing # The clown no-one laughs at. # | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
Do you think of yourself ASBOey or the David Jones from south London. | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
Less an Les as Bowie. I don't even know how to pronounce it any more, I | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
have lost track. I have always thought it was Bowie. It is a | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
Scottish name. But no-one in Scotland pronounces it like that. | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
The actor manager of his own life his final performance was | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
# # Look up here | :07:44. | :07:51. | |
# I'm in heaven # I've got scars that can't be seen. | :07:52. | :08:05. | |
# I've got drama, can't be stolen. # Every body knows my now. # | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
His producer said his death was no different from his life. A work of | :08:11. | :08:11. | |
art. The New York Times wrote | :08:12. | :08:21. | |
about David Bowie that he understood "Theatricality has more to do | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
with presence than gimmickry, and that beautifully coordinated | :08:25. | :08:26. | |
physical movements and well-planned music can reach an audience a lot | :08:27. | :08:28. | |
quicker than aimless prancing At the time, he was | :08:29. | :08:30. | |
barely known in the US. The Times was describing how Bowie | :08:31. | :08:41. | |
stood out favourably among what it called, "tinseled English rock | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
superstars sprouting Over the next few years, | :08:45. | :08:46. | |
Bowie obviously stood out more - he established his artistic | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
reputation over there. And 10 years later came | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
the album Let's Dance. It turned out to be a huge | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
commercial success - That was produced by Nile Rodgers, | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
one of the founders And a little earlier | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
I spoke to him. I just walked into a nightclub, with | :09:05. | :09:27. | |
Billy Idol one day and early one morning, about 5am, and we just | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
happened to notice David was sitting in the corner, all by himself, | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
sipping on an orange juice. I just boldly walked over and introduced | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
myself, because I knew that he, he lived in the same building as a lot | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
of the Young Americans. They were all friends I had gone to high | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
school with, and so I just started chatting with him, and for some | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
reason, we instantaneously hooked up, because our conversation went | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
from the Young Americans and the friend we knew, to jazz musicians | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
that we idolised. And David Bowie, was he, well to be as creative as | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
him, you have to have a vision, and you have to stick to it. Was he | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
difficult, did you argue, what was your personal relationship like? We | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
didn't argue because I stuck to the vision. Basically what happened is, | :10:24. | :10:32. | |
before we did, before we wrote a note of music, we went on a, I don't | :10:33. | :10:41. | |
know, a week long, two week long expedition, journey, if you will, of | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
music and rock 'n' roll iconography all round the city, round income New | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
York eNew York City, after that we had a good idea of the album, and | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
then he said to me, that he wanted me to do what I did best. I thought | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
that he didn't know what I did best, and I said, well, what do you think | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
I do best? And his said, in no uncertain terms, no uncertain term, | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
you make hits. I want you to make a hit. I was perplexed. Like David | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
Bowie wants a hit? I mean you are coming off the Scary Monsters that | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
is so unhit like to me in my world, so I was a little dumbfounded, | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
but... Who was the teacher in this relationship and who was the | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
student? Were you teaching him how to do hits or he was teaching you | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
how to be the cool rock guy? We became partner, so it was a sort of | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
symbiotic relationship, so this is how David made me clear, as to what | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
the record should sound like. He came to my apartment one day and he | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
was holding something behind his back. I wasn't really paying | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
attention to it that much, because he would knock on my door, I would | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
open the door and he had it behind his back. He said Nile darling, I | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
want my record to sound like this. And it was a picture of little | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
Richard addin a red suit, getting into a red Cadillac, and I knew what | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
he meant. I knew exactly what he meant. I knew that he didn't want a | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
record that went... Good golly... I knew he didn't want that, I knew | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
from the way that picture looked, that he wanted something that was | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
evergreen, that would look like the future even in the year 2050, or | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
whatever, makes no difference what year it was, it would be, it would | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
seem plausible that a band, a live band could walk in and just say, we | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
just made this record today, like today, if you heard Let's Dance | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
company 2 even though we may not have had the type of things that you | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
have in current music, but you could still believe that a live rock 'n' | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
roll band cutlet's dance if you just heard that today. It would be | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
believable. Let us about that. It is a notable riff, a catch in Let's | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
Dance. # Let's Dance. # | :13:12. | :13:32. | |
The first part of the riff, the staccato, that is my riff. The delay | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
part of it was the engineer, and I just found out from him, only a few | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
months ago, that that was an accident, that we just happened to | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
walk in the studio, while he was looking for the different delay | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
times to put on the different, on various instruments but he had them | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
all going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
the t on the different, on various instruments but he had them all | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
the horn, and t on the different, on various instruments but he had them | :14:05. | :14:06. | |
all going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
the horn, and I was like "That's he same time. I heard that, coming out | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
of the guitar, and the horn, and I was like "That's amazing," and he he | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and the horn, and I | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
was like "That's amazing," and he was like "Cool." Look. David Bowie, | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
I think, said after this album, this was his best selling album Let's | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
Dance. He said it was very difficult after that, to produce, it was | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
difficult to come up with the next thing, really. It wasn't that he | :14:27. | :14:28. | |
couldn't come up with the next thing, it is just that I think that | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
he expected people and this is just my guess, that he expected people | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
wanted him to make another big hit, but he also wanted to do it his way. | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
And, because if he wanted another one, you would think, he would call | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
me again and say Hay Nile let's do Let's Dance 2. Instead he did | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
something completely different and it didn't quite work commercially. | :14:53. | :15:00. | |
Of all the things the David Bowie did, apart from Let's Dance, what | :15:01. | :15:10. | |
did you like the most? I really am a fan of his songs, so I loved the | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
earlier stuff. Let me put this in context so you really get this. The | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
very first time I ever heard of him, I met this girl in Miami Beach, she | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
was a photographer at this restaurant but I went to, and she | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
says, they have a new beach right down the road, and I would like to | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
spend a night there with you, and I want to play this artist but I love. | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
So what did I say? Of course! So we went to this beach, took off our | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
clothes, and she played, Ziggy played guitar... And suffragette | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
city and all of that stuff. I had this most gorgeous girl, we are | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
lying on the beach, and David Bowie is jamming away, and it was killing | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
me. It was one of the most surreal, amazing moments, a hippy kind of | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
moment, that you could have. Thank you so much for your time. | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
An anecdote that tells you how musical tastes are born. | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
David Bowie was born in 1947, in the first wave of the baby boom, | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
and there's no doubt that the generation of baby boomers | :16:28. | :16:29. | |
who followed behind him felt his presence particularly | :16:30. | :16:31. | |
strongly - the Monty Python cohort, people who are now over 50. | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
But one of the reasons why Bowie's death has been such a big event | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
worldwide is, of course, that he managed to appeal | :16:40. | :16:41. | |
From a guest appearance on the Bing Crosby Christmas Special | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
in 1977, to a cameo appearance in the movie Zoolander, | :16:48. | :16:57. | |
Spongebob's Atlantis Square Pantis in 2007, Bowie compressed | :16:58. | :16:59. | |
I am joined now by a panel of baby boomers to discuss his legacy. New | :17:00. | :17:11. | |
order Frenchman Bernard Sumner in Salford, and here, Victoria Brooks, | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
who curated the V exhibition on David Bowie and the musician and DJ | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
Tom Robinson. Good evening to you all. Bernard, let's start with the | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
musical influence. Obviously there are lots of different influences in | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
him, but which bits did influence you or didn't? The first time I ever | :17:30. | :17:39. | |
heard him, I was 13, and I was here in Salford, but in North Salford, | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
and I was hanging around the streets with a group of my friends, and | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
someone opened the door to a house, and out came Space Oddity. I was | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
only 13 and not really into music at that stage, the Latics Aryans was | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
part of my musical awakening -- but that experience was part of my | :18:04. | :18:11. | |
musical awakening. To hear something like that coming out of a house | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
playing on the radio was surreal. Then later on, it was the Glam rock | :18:19. | :18:27. | |
years, and Ziggy Stardust and all of that, but what really made an | :18:28. | :18:39. | |
impression on me was Heroes, because the band we started, Joy Division, | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
started in 1977, and that came out in 1977. The B-sides were | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
instrumental and had an austere sound that suited and what kind of a | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
soundtrack to the city we lived in, Manchester, which was | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
post-industrial chaos. No one had jobs, it seemed to rain all the | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
time. But that music was a perfect soundtrack to this city. And then of | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
course you had the other sides of the records, songs like Sound and | :19:17. | :19:26. | |
Vision, and that, along with Heroes are my two all-time favourite David | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
Bowie records. So we have heard a bit about the music. Let me bring | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
the others in for a moment. Looking slightly beyond the music, culture. | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
The exhibition was obviously more than just David Bowie records | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
playing. We did have music throughout the show, and I think our | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
first thought when we first came to be working on a show was that Sound | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
and Vision had to be at the very heart of the exhibition, and the | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
artefacts were around that story. But of course what made him so | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
interesting from our perspective, because we are about art, design and | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
performance, is that he draws his influences from such a wide range of | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
places. So he is eclectic. Hugely eclectic across time and genre and | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
everything you can imagine. And he did act, he did art. Would we be | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
talking about him as an artist or an actor if he wasn't David Bowie of | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
Space Oddity? Interesting. We had some very early recordings of | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
interviews that he gave in the 1960s, and he definitely wasn't | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
certain about whether he was going to be a singer, but he was going to | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
be a performer of some kind. He auditioned for various musicals, he | :20:53. | :21:01. | |
auditioned for Hair, for example, he didn't get in but his girlfriend | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
did. His other things were great as well, he was highly acclaimed in | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
something like the Elephant Man. But video was crucial as well as sound | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
in the exhibition. And let's rob on it one more step. Tom Robinson, | :21:17. | :21:27. | |
1977, this was androgynous rock, this was quite something. I couldn't | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
possibly have done that if it hadn't been fit David Bowie before. He and | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
his music made such an impact on me in my early 20s in 1972 that I just | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
saw to myself that if I ever had a chance to do the same for other what | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
he had done for me in terms of changing my life seen, that I had | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
choices, that it was possible to have a happy life if you were | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
attracted to the same sex, that message was not there before because | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
in the 60s, men went to prison if they were gay, so there was not one | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
role model. David Bowie was the first person who came along and said | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
it was cool. He was a bit more ahead of his time than you were crediting, | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
because it was gender bending as well as sexuality. It was the full | :22:16. | :22:25. | |
panoply, LGBT and beyond. A wide variety of people who felt that they | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
didn't fit in with the straitjacket of society, even in the supposedly | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
swinging 60s we still had that. But they suddenly relies did this person | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
that he was the possibility of a wider world. But it wouldn't have | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
meant a thing of the music hadn't have been astonishing. So why did | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
David Bowie stick out among Glam rock artists. There were others, | :22:48. | :22:56. | |
Marc Boland is the most notable. But he shone above most of the others | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
who tried it. Because he transitioned through it. Mark Bolan | :23:01. | :23:14. | |
was good, too, my first record was by him. The David Bowie went on to | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
do so many other things than Glam rock. Glam Rock was a mixed bag, | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
there were some bad things in it, but right until he has just died, | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
you stay the distance and made fantastic records from the day he | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
started. Not every single one, but he made a lot of brilliant records. | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
Is there anything after 1990 that sticks out? Obviously his career | :23:42. | :23:52. | |
wasn't the same after 1990. I liked title The Next Day. It is strange, | :23:53. | :24:10. | |
because the band I started, Joy Division, we started off | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
introspective and austere, very intense, and David Bowie was very | :24:16. | :24:23. | |
open and forward and outward. And we have become like that now, and he | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
has become like we were when we started out. It is usually the other | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
way around. Is there only other artist who you could have an | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
exhibition around in the way you did around David Bowie? What is it take | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
to be like that? I think there is no other artist like him. There are | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
other artist we could have an exhibition around because we were | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
doing -- we would do a different story, but the way that he took | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
ideas from everything to Dada, surrealism, George Orwell, I don't | :24:57. | :25:04. | |
think there is an artist who has the breadth of influences and the reach | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
that he had, because he managed to be a cult performer at the same time | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
as being massively popular, and I think that is very own usual | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
position. Tom, it feels like his period was the period where music | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
was a great shaping force. Yes, it was the great bush telegraph through | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
which culture was transmitted, because we didn't have an Internet. | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
Pop songs gave us that kind of information, and even into the | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
hip-hop era that has been true, but the Internet has changed a lot. Was | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
it inevitable that he would lead this alternative life up until the | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
1990s, and then settle down, he lived in New York? It isn't just | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
that he lived an alternative life. He blazed a trail for other people, | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
and he went through the mill, and he suffered in his career in America | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
because of some of his excesses on this side of the pond, never achieve | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
the stature that he secretly always wanted. And I think he earned the | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
right down a quiet retirement and to have the last 20 years of his life | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
where he had his privacy and could do whatever he wanted, and fair play | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
to him. We have to leave it there, thank you very much indeed. | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
Before we move on to other things, let's just spend a minute listening | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
Back in 2000, turn of the millennium, he spoke | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
This exchange on the internet is particularly interesting. | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
You don't think that some of the claims being made for it | :26:35. | :26:36. | |
When the telephone was invented, people made amazing claims for it. | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
The president at the time, when it was first invented, | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
He said he foresaw the day in the future when every town | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
I don't think we've even seen the tip of the iceberg. | :26:53. | :27:04. | |
I think the potential of what the internet is going to do | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
to society, both good and bad, is unimaginable. | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
I think we're actually on the cusp of something | :27:15. | :27:16. | |
It's just a tool, though, isn't it? | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
It's simply a different delivery system, though. | :27:22. | :27:36. | |
Yeah, I'm actually talking about the actual context | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
and the state of content is going to be so different | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
to anything we can really envisage at the moment, | :27:46. | :27:47. | |
where the interplay between the user and the provider will be | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
so in simpatico, it is going to crush our ideas of what mediums | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
Jeremy Edwards just playing devils advocate! | :27:56. | :28:10. | |
And you can watch the full 16 minutes of Jeremy's encounter | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
with David Bowie on the Newsnight YouTube channel and Facebook page. | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
Tomorrow, the NHS faces a day of disruption - | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
Now you know what the junior doctors think of Jeremy Hunt, | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
but do you know what the public think of the junior doctors? | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
Well, we've been trying to find an answer to that question, | :28:29. | :28:30. | |
so we commissioned a poll with Health Service Journal | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
On the eve of the first doctors' strike in 40 years, | :28:34. | :28:42. | |
we have stuck a polling thermometer under the tongue of the English | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
When asked, "Would you support or oppose junior doctors striking | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
if they still provided emergency care?", 66% | :28:50. | :28:50. | |
For the first two planned strikes, the doctors say they will still | :28:51. | :28:59. | |
provide emergency cover, but for the third planned strike say | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
In these circumstances, support drops to 44%, | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
but still ahead of those opposed to the action, | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
The final question we asked was about why the doctors | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
The politicians are offering their diagnoses. | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
In today's Telegraph, the Mayor of London, | :29:22. | :29:23. | |
"It strikes me at least some of these people | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
are more interested in politics than their patients. | :29:27. | :29:28. | |
The BMA leadership is in the grip of advanced Corbynitis." | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
But that attitude wasn't reflected in our sample. | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
Only 8% thought the strike had a political cause. | :29:43. | :29:44. | |
64% thought it was about work issues, such as long hours, | :29:45. | :29:46. | |
So, at the moment, the English public seems to be behind | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
the doctors, though that of course could shift, | :29:51. | :29:52. | |
as the impact of the strike becomes clearer. | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
Joining me to discuss whether to strike or not | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
is the Conservative MP and head of the Health Select Committee Sarah | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
Wollaston, and junior doctor Rachel Clarke, | :30:04. | :30:04. | |
Before we talk about the merits of the strike, the merits of the case | :30:05. | :30:18. | |
of the junior doctors, scale of one-to-one 00, how much sympathy do | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
you have with their argument? I o do have a great deal of sympathy but we | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
need to be careful about the stress on union doctors and the long hours | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
they work, what has been achieved so far, there has been significant | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
compromise on some of this, particularly round the issue of | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
whether we would see a slide back in to the dangerously long hours my | :30:38. | :30:45. | |
generation of doctors used to work. Having the retention of financial | :30:46. | :30:47. | |
penalties was important. But you are against the strike. I just don't | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
feel it is right for junior doctors to go on strike. I imagine it | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
pleases you that the public, basically in our poll, support the | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
junior doctor, particularly if you are not damaging emergency cover. It | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
pleases me, it is no surprise at all. I think the public trust | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
doctors for a reason. We go into medicine because our one reason is | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
to look after them. What about on your third strike you are prancing | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
to withdraw emergency cover, aren't you. There will be emergency cover | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
from consultants and nurse, but why given what the public think don't | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
you say make the third strike the same as the other two, where we | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
don't withdraw emergency cover? I think, I can't answer that from a | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
BMA perspective. I am just an ordinary grass roots doctor, but | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
from my perspective, I think that we are clearly striking initially | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
tomorrow in the safest way we can, so we are making a statement, and we | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
hope very much that the Government will listen to that statement while | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
absolutely preserving our patients' safety. There is a period of time | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
between tomorrow's strike and the all out strike in February, and I | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
see that period as an opportunity for this Government to finally | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
recognise that in coming up with a new contract based on an entire new | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
set of NHS service, so the Conservative party's seven day NHS's | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
new activity, with no extra money whatsoever, so how is it provided? | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
This new activity as weekends with no extra doctors? By makes us work | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
harder. The public are clearly sympathetic to the strike, | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
basically, and you are sympathetic to the cause, so what is wrong with | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
the strike? Because first of all I don't think I will achieve anything. | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
I think it will harm patients and I don't think that is right either for | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
patients or doctors, I think particularly when they do move, if | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
that does happen, to withdrawing emergency cover, I think there will | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
be significantly greater harms for patients and I think that will risk | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
undermining that very important bond of trust, because as we have heard, | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
there are the most trusted profission, I think there are grave | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
dangers that will be undermined. Let me put this to you, we asked the | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
public whether they thought it was a strike about pay or patient safety. | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
I think you think it is about patient safety don't you Rachel the | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
public thought it was about pay, probably. Yes, again that is not a | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
surprise, the Conservative Party, the Government have been furiously | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
spinning this, as a pay dispute. And from my perspective that is | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
categorically not why I am striking tomorrow. My vows as a doctor, I | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
take very very seriously, and I withdraw my patient care tomorrow, | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
for one reason, and one reason alone, and that is to protect my | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
patients. For me, and for all junior doctors the essence of this strike | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
is not pay, it is safe staffing levels. You believe that? I think | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
the situation has changed. What it is is about reducing the length of | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
working time doctors can be forced to work. It is about reducing the | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
number of consecutive nights they can work, the other thing is greater | :34:06. | :34:12. | |
safeguard foger doctors who want to report they are being forced to | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
Bjork hour, the financial penalties are being brought back, so I think | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
there are been changes. Are you saying they lying when they say it | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
is not about pay. I used to teach doctors before I went into politics, | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
I remember in 2007, the huge distress there was round the end | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
task as it was brought in, the way doctors applied for job, what we | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
have seen is a kind of, the junior doctors lead a more nomadic | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
lifestyle, there are many ways they work which are divot for them. In in | :34:47. | :34:54. | |
many respects I imagine Sarah did ludicrous kind of 90 hour shifts, | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
you are not doing that now? Sure with the greatest respect, Sarah, | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
you are now an MP, you haven't been a doctor for some time, and you | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
certainly haven't been a junior dock for for many years. Can I come back | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
on that point. I would like to answer the question if I may. I am a | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
junior doctor on the front line now, I know what is happening now. What I | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
know now is recruitment and retention of junior doctors is so | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
bad, that virtually every on call shift I work in my hospital, there | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
is a gap in the rota t and to put that in terms that the public can | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
understand, that means instead of carrying my crash bleep for cardiac | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
arrest, my emergency bleep, where I am responsible for maybe one, 200 | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
patients who might have emergencies through the night. I get given the | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
bleep of another doctor who isn't there because there is a gap. I am | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
covering 400. This contract is going to reduce morale, and make reCruise | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
cruetment and retention worse and hence the safety implications. -- | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
recruitment. To come back on the fact I used to teach doctor, | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
including foundation two doctors in hospital, you know, and up until | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
2015, I have a daughter who is a junior doctor currently spending a | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
year in Australia, but of course it wasn't pay and conditions that | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
drives many junior doctors to have that year abroad, it subpoena often | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
other issues to how they can co-ordinate their rotas with their | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
partners and so on. The argument will continue. Thank you both. | :36:28. | :36:29. | |
You have not heard much about the Conservative Party's | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
bullying scandal in recent weeks, partly because the party's inquiry | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
into what went on and what went wrong is getting underway. | :36:36. | :36:37. | |
It's meant to be an independent inquiry, run by a top law firm. | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
For the party to put the scandal behind it, | :36:42. | :36:43. | |
it needs that inquiry to be credible. | :36:44. | :36:44. | |
However, Newsnight has learned that not all is going well. | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
Some important witnesses are reluctant to take part, | :36:48. | :36:49. | |
sceptical of the outcome, of of their evidence | :36:50. | :36:51. | |
Nick Hopkins has been speaking to them. | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
So tragic, the Prime Minister pledged an urgent investigation. | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
It is not something that any parent should have to go through. | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
What the Conservative Party must do and what it is doing and what I have | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
ensured is happening is that there is a proper investigation. | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
Over the past few days Newsnight has spoken to 14 people who count | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
themselves as potentially key witnesses in the Tory bullying | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
And nine of them have told us they will not give evidence. | :37:27. | :37:35. | |
All of these nine are either former members of staff at CC HQ | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
They say they were victims of bullying, sexual abuse, | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
blackmail, but none of them have confidence in this investigation. | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
This woman is refusing to participate in the inquiry. | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
She fears witness intimidation, a legal threats. | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
I am worried that Mark Clarke and his associates will find out | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
who I am, link my ID with what I have said, | :38:02. | :38:03. | |
and find out where I live, who I am, where I work. | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
And that he and his associates will come after me and try to use | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
force and intimidation to try to get me to retract | :38:12. | :38:13. | |
In November, Natasha told Newsnight Clarke bullied | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
The initial letter she and others received from the law firm | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
inviting her to be a witness did little to dispel her anxiety. | :38:24. | :38:25. | |
In December, Josh Hitchens discovered a complaint | :38:26. | :38:48. | |
he had made to the party in 2014 about bullying appeared to have been | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
Clifford Chance are gathering the evidence, so the witness | :38:55. | :39:03. | |
transcripts and everything else, they are passing them directly | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
to the Conservative Party Board, who will make an assessment of them, | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
edit them and publish a report with them compiled. | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
There's a lot of people I know, including myself, are unwilling | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
to give evidence to this inquiry because we don't have confidence | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
in the way that our evidence is going to be handled | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
We don't believe it is an independent inquiry. | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
That very fact there is a perception of lack of independence | :39:29. | :39:30. | |
and integrity in the process nullifies it, because a lot lot | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
and integrity in the process nullifies it, because a lot | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
of people who have crucial bodies of evidence aren't willing | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
to support that evidence, because they don't believe | :39:39. | :39:40. | |
And that is the problem for the Tory party. | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
To draw a line under this issue, to make sure that the situation | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
never happens again, the inquiry has to be credible. | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
And to be credible, all the key witnesses need to give evidence. | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
If they don't, then the clamour of those who say the party failed | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
in its duty of care to Elliott Johnson will only grow louder. | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
It is an investigation by a commercial firm | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
of solicitors who have had links with the Conservative Party | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
into certain aspects of the Conservative | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
Party behaviour along the terms of reference decided | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
It is not an independent investigation. | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
The inquiry into what happened in the | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
Conservative Party is according to Clifford Chance of making good | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
progress, and in a statement tonight, they said witnesses | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
would be able to insist on confidentiality. | :40:37. | :40:53. | |
The student vote is really important. | :40:54. | :40:55. | |
Elliot Johnson's family are conducting their own | :40:56. | :40:57. | |
inquiry into bullying within the Tory party. | :40:58. | :40:59. | |
They think it is the only way to get to the truth. | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
The Tory party says it can't say anything | :41:03. | :41:04. | |
There is more David Bowie coming up here on BBC Two. | :41:05. | :41:16. | |
Five years in the Making of an Icon the programme is called. | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
So we leave you with Ziggy Stardust, performing Five Years | :41:20. | :41:21. | |
on the Old Grey Whistle Test, 44 years ago in 1972. | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
# If the black hadn't pulled her off. | :41:25. | :41:40. | |
# I think she would have killed them. | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
# Fixed his stare to the wheels of a Cadillac | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
# A cop knelt and kissed the feet of a priest | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
# And a queer threw up at the sight of that. | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
# I think I saw you in an ice-cream parlour. | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
# Drinking milkshakes, cold and long. | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
# Smiling and waving and looking so fine. | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
# Don't think you knew you were in my song | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
Rtners and so on. The argument will continue. Thank you both. | :42:25. | :42:57. | |
After the spring-like mild weather we saw, | :42:58. | :42:58. |