11/01/2016 Newsnight


11/01/2016

Newsnight examines the legacy of David Bowie, airing again his interview with Jeremy Paxman and speaking to Nile Rodgers, Tom Robinson and Bernard Sumner.


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Transcript


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# I've got scars that can't be seen. #

:00:09.:00:19.

One of the premier talents of 20th century music

:00:20.:00:23.

It's only in retrospect that we can properly evaluate his musical

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Does he deserve the uncritical adulation he's getting today?

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We'll hear from his sometime collaborator Nile Rodgers,

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along with Tom Robinson, Bernard Sumner and the curator

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of the Bowie exhibition, Victoria Broackes.

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And of course we'll hear plenty from the man himself.

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Do you think of yourself as Bowie or David Jones,

:00:55.:00:56.

I don't even know how to pronounce it any more,

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Also tonight, there is some other news.

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What the public think of tomorrow's doctors' strike.

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We'll discuss the results of a Newsnight poll on the subject.

:01:15.:01:20.

Newsnight hears of problems for the independent

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to give evidence to this inquiry because we don't have confidence

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in the way that our evidence is going to be handle

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We don't believe it's an independent inquiry.

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Sometimes on these occasions, the death of a national icon,

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people will say "It was as though we knew them personally".

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With David Bowie, I'd suggest it is different.

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We knew him, but he was not the man next door.

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The master of alter ego and adaptation through his career,

:02:00.:02:02.

he remained elusive and enigmatic to the end.

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And yet he was also familiar and ever-present.

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There's been a lot of looking back today, but here is Stephen Smith

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with his assessment of David Bowie and his career.

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Despite all the costume changes, it's striking how unchanging Bowie

:02:20.:02:22.

Single-minded, his own man, the star we know was remarkably

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The nucleus of some of his friends, a 17-year-old David Jones has just

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founded the Society for the prevention of cruelty

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I think we are all fairly tolerant, but for the last two

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years, we have had comments like, darling, can I carry your handbag

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But does this surprise you, that you get this kind of comment?

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Because we have got really rather long-haired, haven't you?

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I was learning about how to play rhythm and blues,

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learning how to write, finding everything that I read,

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every film that I saw, every bit of theatre,

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everything went into my mind as being in influence.

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Bowie as his first great alter ego Ziggy

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Every persona he put on was like a disguise to help him

:03:30.:03:35.

slip across the border from pop to something bigger.

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They said he was coming round the back. I have been waiting ages to

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see him. Who are you so upset? He's smashing.

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I thought you were doing an intro. Right. One. I was not a natural

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performer. I didn't feel at ease on stage, ever. I felt really

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comfortable going on stage as somebody else. And it seemed a

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rational decision to keep on doing that. So I got quite be soed with

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the idea of creating character after character.

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# Fame # Makes man who takes things over

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# Fame... # I wanted on to the instigator of new

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ideas. I wanted to turn people on to new things and new perspectives.

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Nothing you have seen or heard about David Bowie will prepare you for the

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impact of his first dramatic performance, in The Man Who Fell to

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Earth. This is another dimension of David

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Bowie, one of the few true originals of our time.

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Five year, that's all. I'll be back. The man who played the part of a pop

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star to perfection became a screen actor. For better or worse he was

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always David Bowie. He will land on his feet.

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# Let's Dance # Put on your red shoes

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# And dance the blues # Let's Dance

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# To the song they're playing on the radio. #

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I think we are out of characters now. I am just into suits and the

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suit will change from tour to tour but the bloke inside is generally

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much the same. Which is the real David Bowie? The lad from Brixton,

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the pop megastar to coin a phrase. I will bring him on. Or the

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40-year-old yuppy with the son at private school. I think it is all.

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Yuppy? Get out of here! # Golden years #

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He might have got rid of his post-war British teeth but not his

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accent. Although he seemed to spend the last years of his life in

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Manhattan, he was still one of ours. I think I have sold out to be

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honest. It is difficult, to keep integrity when you are going for

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that... # Little fat man who sold his soul

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# # Chubby little loser. #

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# Chubby little loser # National joke. #

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Not thupy little loser. # Pathetic little fat man

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# No-one's laughing # The clown no-one laughs at. #

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Do you think of yourself ASBOey or the David Jones from south London.

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Less an Les as Bowie. I don't even know how to pronounce it any more, I

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have lost track. I have always thought it was Bowie. It is a

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Scottish name. But no-one in Scotland pronounces it like that.

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The actor manager of his own life his final performance was

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# # Look up here

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# I'm in heaven # I've got scars that can't be seen.

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# I've got drama, can't be stolen. # Every body knows my now. #

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His producer said his death was no different from his life. A work of

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art. The New York Times wrote

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about David Bowie that he understood "Theatricality has more to do

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with presence than gimmickry, and that beautifully coordinated

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physical movements and well-planned music can reach an audience a lot

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quicker than aimless prancing At the time, he was

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barely known in the US. The Times was describing how Bowie

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stood out favourably among what it called, "tinseled English rock

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superstars sprouting Over the next few years,

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Bowie obviously stood out more - he established his artistic

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reputation over there. And 10 years later came

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the album Let's Dance. It turned out to be a huge

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commercial success - That was produced by Nile Rodgers,

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one of the founders And a little earlier

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I spoke to him. I just walked into a nightclub, with

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Billy Idol one day and early one morning, about 5am, and we just

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happened to notice David was sitting in the corner, all by himself,

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sipping on an orange juice. I just boldly walked over and introduced

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myself, because I knew that he, he lived in the same building as a lot

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of the Young Americans. They were all friends I had gone to high

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school with, and so I just started chatting with him, and for some

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reason, we instantaneously hooked up, because our conversation went

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from the Young Americans and the friend we knew, to jazz musicians

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that we idolised. And David Bowie, was he, well to be as creative as

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him, you have to have a vision, and you have to stick to it. Was he

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difficult, did you argue, what was your personal relationship like? We

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didn't argue because I stuck to the vision. Basically what happened is,

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before we did, before we wrote a note of music, we went on a, I don't

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know, a week long, two week long expedition, journey, if you will, of

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music and rock 'n' roll iconography all round the city, round income New

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York eNew York City, after that we had a good idea of the album, and

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then he said to me, that he wanted me to do what I did best. I thought

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that he didn't know what I did best, and I said, well, what do you think

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I do best? And his said, in no uncertain terms, no uncertain term,

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you make hits. I want you to make a hit. I was perplexed. Like David

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Bowie wants a hit? I mean you are coming off the Scary Monsters that

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is so unhit like to me in my world, so I was a little dumbfounded,

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but... Who was the teacher in this relationship and who was the

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student? Were you teaching him how to do hits or he was teaching you

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how to be the cool rock guy? We became partner, so it was a sort of

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symbiotic relationship, so this is how David made me clear, as to what

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the record should sound like. He came to my apartment one day and he

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was holding something behind his back. I wasn't really paying

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attention to it that much, because he would knock on my door, I would

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open the door and he had it behind his back. He said Nile darling, I

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want my record to sound like this. And it was a picture of little

:12:04.:12:10.

Richard addin a red suit, getting into a red Cadillac, and I knew what

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he meant. I knew exactly what he meant. I knew that he didn't want a

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record that went... Good golly... I knew he didn't want that, I knew

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from the way that picture looked, that he wanted something that was

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evergreen, that would look like the future even in the year 2050, or

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whatever, makes no difference what year it was, it would be, it would

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seem plausible that a band, a live band could walk in and just say, we

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just made this record today, like today, if you heard Let's Dance

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company 2 even though we may not have had the type of things that you

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have in current music, but you could still believe that a live rock 'n'

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roll band cutlet's dance if you just heard that today. It would be

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believable. Let us about that. It is a notable riff, a catch in Let's

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Dance. # Let's Dance. #

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The first part of the riff, the staccato, that is my riff. The delay

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part of it was the engineer, and I just found out from him, only a few

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months ago, that that was an accident, that we just happened to

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walk in the studio, while he was looking for the different delay

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times to put on the different, on various instruments but he had them

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all going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and

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the t on the different, on various instruments but he had them all

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going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and

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the horn, and t on the different, on various instruments but he had them

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all going at the same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and

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the horn, and I was like "That's he same time. I heard that, coming out

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of the guitar, and the horn, and I was like "That's amazing," and he he

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same time. I heard that, coming out of the guitar, and the horn, and I

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was like "That's amazing," and he was like "Cool." Look. David Bowie,

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I think, said after this album, this was his best selling album Let's

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Dance. He said it was very difficult after that, to produce, it was

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difficult to come up with the next thing, really. It wasn't that he

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couldn't come up with the next thing, it is just that I think that

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he expected people and this is just my guess, that he expected people

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wanted him to make another big hit, but he also wanted to do it his way.

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And, because if he wanted another one, you would think, he would call

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me again and say Hay Nile let's do Let's Dance 2. Instead he did

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something completely different and it didn't quite work commercially.

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Of all the things the David Bowie did, apart from Let's Dance, what

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did you like the most? I really am a fan of his songs, so I loved the

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earlier stuff. Let me put this in context so you really get this. The

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very first time I ever heard of him, I met this girl in Miami Beach, she

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was a photographer at this restaurant but I went to, and she

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says, they have a new beach right down the road, and I would like to

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spend a night there with you, and I want to play this artist but I love.

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So what did I say? Of course! So we went to this beach, took off our

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clothes, and she played, Ziggy played guitar... And suffragette

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city and all of that stuff. I had this most gorgeous girl, we are

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lying on the beach, and David Bowie is jamming away, and it was killing

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me. It was one of the most surreal, amazing moments, a hippy kind of

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moment, that you could have. Thank you so much for your time.

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An anecdote that tells you how musical tastes are born.

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David Bowie was born in 1947, in the first wave of the baby boom,

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and there's no doubt that the generation of baby boomers

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who followed behind him felt his presence particularly

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strongly - the Monty Python cohort, people who are now over 50.

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But one of the reasons why Bowie's death has been such a big event

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worldwide is, of course, that he managed to appeal

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From a guest appearance on the Bing Crosby Christmas Special

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in 1977, to a cameo appearance in the movie Zoolander,

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Spongebob's Atlantis Square Pantis in 2007, Bowie compressed

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I am joined now by a panel of baby boomers to discuss his legacy. New

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order Frenchman Bernard Sumner in Salford, and here, Victoria Brooks,

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who curated the V exhibition on David Bowie and the musician and DJ

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Tom Robinson. Good evening to you all. Bernard, let's start with the

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musical influence. Obviously there are lots of different influences in

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him, but which bits did influence you or didn't? The first time I ever

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heard him, I was 13, and I was here in Salford, but in North Salford,

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and I was hanging around the streets with a group of my friends, and

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someone opened the door to a house, and out came Space Oddity. I was

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only 13 and not really into music at that stage, the Latics Aryans was

:17:56.:18:03.

part of my musical awakening -- but that experience was part of my

:18:04.:18:11.

musical awakening. To hear something like that coming out of a house

:18:12.:18:18.

playing on the radio was surreal. Then later on, it was the Glam rock

:18:19.:18:27.

years, and Ziggy Stardust and all of that, but what really made an

:18:28.:18:39.

impression on me was Heroes, because the band we started, Joy Division,

:18:40.:18:45.

started in 1977, and that came out in 1977. The B-sides were

:18:46.:18:49.

instrumental and had an austere sound that suited and what kind of a

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soundtrack to the city we lived in, Manchester, which was

:18:57.:19:02.

post-industrial chaos. No one had jobs, it seemed to rain all the

:19:03.:19:10.

time. But that music was a perfect soundtrack to this city. And then of

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course you had the other sides of the records, songs like Sound and

:19:17.:19:26.

Vision, and that, along with Heroes are my two all-time favourite David

:19:27.:19:31.

Bowie records. So we have heard a bit about the music. Let me bring

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the others in for a moment. Looking slightly beyond the music, culture.

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The exhibition was obviously more than just David Bowie records

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playing. We did have music throughout the show, and I think our

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first thought when we first came to be working on a show was that Sound

:19:55.:20:00.

and Vision had to be at the very heart of the exhibition, and the

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artefacts were around that story. But of course what made him so

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interesting from our perspective, because we are about art, design and

:20:10.:20:14.

performance, is that he draws his influences from such a wide range of

:20:15.:20:20.

places. So he is eclectic. Hugely eclectic across time and genre and

:20:21.:20:27.

everything you can imagine. And he did act, he did art. Would we be

:20:28.:20:33.

talking about him as an artist or an actor if he wasn't David Bowie of

:20:34.:20:39.

Space Oddity? Interesting. We had some very early recordings of

:20:40.:20:43.

interviews that he gave in the 1960s, and he definitely wasn't

:20:44.:20:46.

certain about whether he was going to be a singer, but he was going to

:20:47.:20:52.

be a performer of some kind. He auditioned for various musicals, he

:20:53.:21:01.

auditioned for Hair, for example, he didn't get in but his girlfriend

:21:02.:21:06.

did. His other things were great as well, he was highly acclaimed in

:21:07.:21:13.

something like the Elephant Man. But video was crucial as well as sound

:21:14.:21:16.

in the exhibition. And let's rob on it one more step. Tom Robinson,

:21:17.:21:27.

1977, this was androgynous rock, this was quite something. I couldn't

:21:28.:21:32.

possibly have done that if it hadn't been fit David Bowie before. He and

:21:33.:21:38.

his music made such an impact on me in my early 20s in 1972 that I just

:21:39.:21:44.

saw to myself that if I ever had a chance to do the same for other what

:21:45.:21:48.

he had done for me in terms of changing my life seen, that I had

:21:49.:21:52.

choices, that it was possible to have a happy life if you were

:21:53.:21:56.

attracted to the same sex, that message was not there before because

:21:57.:22:02.

in the 60s, men went to prison if they were gay, so there was not one

:22:03.:22:07.

role model. David Bowie was the first person who came along and said

:22:08.:22:10.

it was cool. He was a bit more ahead of his time than you were crediting,

:22:11.:22:15.

because it was gender bending as well as sexuality. It was the full

:22:16.:22:25.

panoply, LGBT and beyond. A wide variety of people who felt that they

:22:26.:22:28.

didn't fit in with the straitjacket of society, even in the supposedly

:22:29.:22:33.

swinging 60s we still had that. But they suddenly relies did this person

:22:34.:22:38.

that he was the possibility of a wider world. But it wouldn't have

:22:39.:22:43.

meant a thing of the music hadn't have been astonishing. So why did

:22:44.:22:47.

David Bowie stick out among Glam rock artists. There were others,

:22:48.:22:56.

Marc Boland is the most notable. But he shone above most of the others

:22:57.:23:00.

who tried it. Because he transitioned through it. Mark Bolan

:23:01.:23:14.

was good, too, my first record was by him. The David Bowie went on to

:23:15.:23:19.

do so many other things than Glam rock. Glam Rock was a mixed bag,

:23:20.:23:25.

there were some bad things in it, but right until he has just died,

:23:26.:23:31.

you stay the distance and made fantastic records from the day he

:23:32.:23:36.

started. Not every single one, but he made a lot of brilliant records.

:23:37.:23:41.

Is there anything after 1990 that sticks out? Obviously his career

:23:42.:23:52.

wasn't the same after 1990. I liked title The Next Day. It is strange,

:23:53.:24:10.

because the band I started, Joy Division, we started off

:24:11.:24:15.

introspective and austere, very intense, and David Bowie was very

:24:16.:24:23.

open and forward and outward. And we have become like that now, and he

:24:24.:24:26.

has become like we were when we started out. It is usually the other

:24:27.:24:33.

way around. Is there only other artist who you could have an

:24:34.:24:37.

exhibition around in the way you did around David Bowie? What is it take

:24:38.:24:40.

to be like that? I think there is no other artist like him. There are

:24:41.:24:46.

other artist we could have an exhibition around because we were

:24:47.:24:51.

doing -- we would do a different story, but the way that he took

:24:52.:24:56.

ideas from everything to Dada, surrealism, George Orwell, I don't

:24:57.:25:04.

think there is an artist who has the breadth of influences and the reach

:25:05.:25:07.

that he had, because he managed to be a cult performer at the same time

:25:08.:25:13.

as being massively popular, and I think that is very own usual

:25:14.:25:17.

position. Tom, it feels like his period was the period where music

:25:18.:25:22.

was a great shaping force. Yes, it was the great bush telegraph through

:25:23.:25:25.

which culture was transmitted, because we didn't have an Internet.

:25:26.:25:31.

Pop songs gave us that kind of information, and even into the

:25:32.:25:34.

hip-hop era that has been true, but the Internet has changed a lot. Was

:25:35.:25:39.

it inevitable that he would lead this alternative life up until the

:25:40.:25:43.

1990s, and then settle down, he lived in New York? It isn't just

:25:44.:25:49.

that he lived an alternative life. He blazed a trail for other people,

:25:50.:25:54.

and he went through the mill, and he suffered in his career in America

:25:55.:25:58.

because of some of his excesses on this side of the pond, never achieve

:25:59.:26:01.

the stature that he secretly always wanted. And I think he earned the

:26:02.:26:07.

right down a quiet retirement and to have the last 20 years of his life

:26:08.:26:10.

where he had his privacy and could do whatever he wanted, and fair play

:26:11.:26:16.

to him. We have to leave it there, thank you very much indeed.

:26:17.:26:21.

Before we move on to other things, let's just spend a minute listening

:26:22.:26:24.

Back in 2000, turn of the millennium, he spoke

:26:25.:26:27.

This exchange on the internet is particularly interesting.

:26:28.:26:34.

You don't think that some of the claims being made for it

:26:35.:26:36.

When the telephone was invented, people made amazing claims for it.

:26:37.:26:41.

The president at the time, when it was first invented,

:26:42.:26:46.

He said he foresaw the day in the future when every town

:26:47.:26:52.

I don't think we've even seen the tip of the iceberg.

:26:53.:27:04.

I think the potential of what the internet is going to do

:27:05.:27:08.

to society, both good and bad, is unimaginable.

:27:09.:27:14.

I think we're actually on the cusp of something

:27:15.:27:16.

It's just a tool, though, isn't it?

:27:17.:27:21.

It's simply a different delivery system, though.

:27:22.:27:36.

Yeah, I'm actually talking about the actual context

:27:37.:27:40.

and the state of content is going to be so different

:27:41.:27:45.

to anything we can really envisage at the moment,

:27:46.:27:47.

where the interplay between the user and the provider will be

:27:48.:27:51.

so in simpatico, it is going to crush our ideas of what mediums

:27:52.:27:55.

Jeremy Edwards just playing devils advocate!

:27:56.:28:10.

And you can watch the full 16 minutes of Jeremy's encounter

:28:11.:28:12.

with David Bowie on the Newsnight YouTube channel and Facebook page.

:28:13.:28:15.

Tomorrow, the NHS faces a day of disruption -

:28:16.:28:18.

Now you know what the junior doctors think of Jeremy Hunt,

:28:19.:28:25.

but do you know what the public think of the junior doctors?

:28:26.:28:28.

Well, we've been trying to find an answer to that question,

:28:29.:28:30.

so we commissioned a poll with Health Service Journal

:28:31.:28:33.

On the eve of the first doctors' strike in 40 years,

:28:34.:28:42.

we have stuck a polling thermometer under the tongue of the English

:28:43.:28:45.

When asked, "Would you support or oppose junior doctors striking

:28:46.:28:49.

if they still provided emergency care?", 66%

:28:50.:28:50.

For the first two planned strikes, the doctors say they will still

:28:51.:28:59.

provide emergency cover, but for the third planned strike say

:29:00.:29:04.

In these circumstances, support drops to 44%,

:29:05.:29:08.

but still ahead of those opposed to the action,

:29:09.:29:11.

The final question we asked was about why the doctors

:29:12.:29:15.

The politicians are offering their diagnoses.

:29:16.:29:21.

In today's Telegraph, the Mayor of London,

:29:22.:29:23.

"It strikes me at least some of these people

:29:24.:29:26.

are more interested in politics than their patients.

:29:27.:29:28.

The BMA leadership is in the grip of advanced Corbynitis."

:29:29.:29:35.

But that attitude wasn't reflected in our sample.

:29:36.:29:42.

Only 8% thought the strike had a political cause.

:29:43.:29:44.

64% thought it was about work issues, such as long hours,

:29:45.:29:46.

So, at the moment, the English public seems to be behind

:29:47.:29:50.

the doctors, though that of course could shift,

:29:51.:29:52.

as the impact of the strike becomes clearer.

:29:53.:29:57.

Joining me to discuss whether to strike or not

:29:58.:30:00.

is the Conservative MP and head of the Health Select Committee Sarah

:30:01.:30:03.

Wollaston, and junior doctor Rachel Clarke,

:30:04.:30:04.

Before we talk about the merits of the strike, the merits of the case

:30:05.:30:18.

of the junior doctors, scale of one-to-one 00, how much sympathy do

:30:19.:30:22.

you have with their argument? I o do have a great deal of sympathy but we

:30:23.:30:26.

need to be careful about the stress on union doctors and the long hours

:30:27.:30:30.

they work, what has been achieved so far, there has been significant

:30:31.:30:33.

compromise on some of this, particularly round the issue of

:30:34.:30:37.

whether we would see a slide back in to the dangerously long hours my

:30:38.:30:45.

generation of doctors used to work. Having the retention of financial

:30:46.:30:47.

penalties was important. But you are against the strike. I just don't

:30:48.:30:51.

feel it is right for junior doctors to go on strike. I imagine it

:30:52.:30:57.

pleases you that the public, basically in our poll, support the

:30:58.:31:00.

junior doctor, particularly if you are not damaging emergency cover. It

:31:01.:31:04.

pleases me, it is no surprise at all. I think the public trust

:31:05.:31:10.

doctors for a reason. We go into medicine because our one reason is

:31:11.:31:13.

to look after them. What about on your third strike you are prancing

:31:14.:31:17.

to withdraw emergency cover, aren't you. There will be emergency cover

:31:18.:31:22.

from consultants and nurse, but why given what the public think don't

:31:23.:31:25.

you say make the third strike the same as the other two, where we

:31:26.:31:31.

don't withdraw emergency cover? I think, I can't answer that from a

:31:32.:31:36.

BMA perspective. I am just an ordinary grass roots doctor, but

:31:37.:31:41.

from my perspective, I think that we are clearly striking initially

:31:42.:31:44.

tomorrow in the safest way we can, so we are making a statement, and we

:31:45.:31:48.

hope very much that the Government will listen to that statement while

:31:49.:31:52.

absolutely preserving our patients' safety. There is a period of time

:31:53.:31:57.

between tomorrow's strike and the all out strike in February, and I

:31:58.:32:04.

see that period as an opportunity for this Government to finally

:32:05.:32:09.

recognise that in coming up with a new contract based on an entire new

:32:10.:32:15.

set of NHS service, so the Conservative party's seven day NHS's

:32:16.:32:20.

new activity, with no extra money whatsoever, so how is it provided?

:32:21.:32:24.

This new activity as weekends with no extra doctors? By makes us work

:32:25.:32:30.

harder. The public are clearly sympathetic to the strike,

:32:31.:32:33.

basically, and you are sympathetic to the cause, so what is wrong with

:32:34.:32:37.

the strike? Because first of all I don't think I will achieve anything.

:32:38.:32:40.

I think it will harm patients and I don't think that is right either for

:32:41.:32:44.

patients or doctors, I think particularly when they do move, if

:32:45.:32:48.

that does happen, to withdrawing emergency cover, I think there will

:32:49.:32:53.

be significantly greater harms for patients and I think that will risk

:32:54.:32:56.

undermining that very important bond of trust, because as we have heard,

:32:57.:33:01.

there are the most trusted profission, I think there are grave

:33:02.:33:04.

dangers that will be undermined. Let me put this to you, we asked the

:33:05.:33:08.

public whether they thought it was a strike about pay or patient safety.

:33:09.:33:13.

I think you think it is about patient safety don't you Rachel the

:33:14.:33:16.

public thought it was about pay, probably. Yes, again that is not a

:33:17.:33:22.

surprise, the Conservative Party, the Government have been furiously

:33:23.:33:28.

spinning this, as a pay dispute. And from my perspective that is

:33:29.:33:31.

categorically not why I am striking tomorrow. My vows as a doctor, I

:33:32.:33:37.

take very very seriously, and I withdraw my patient care tomorrow,

:33:38.:33:40.

for one reason, and one reason alone, and that is to protect my

:33:41.:33:46.

patients. For me, and for all junior doctors the essence of this strike

:33:47.:33:51.

is not pay, it is safe staffing levels. You believe that? I think

:33:52.:33:57.

the situation has changed. What it is is about reducing the length of

:33:58.:34:00.

working time doctors can be forced to work. It is about reducing the

:34:01.:34:05.

number of consecutive nights they can work, the other thing is greater

:34:06.:34:12.

safeguard foger doctors who want to report they are being forced to

:34:13.:34:15.

Bjork hour, the financial penalties are being brought back, so I think

:34:16.:34:21.

there are been changes. Are you saying they lying when they say it

:34:22.:34:27.

is not about pay. I used to teach doctors before I went into politics,

:34:28.:34:32.

I remember in 2007, the huge distress there was round the end

:34:33.:34:37.

task as it was brought in, the way doctors applied for job, what we

:34:38.:34:43.

have seen is a kind of, the junior doctors lead a more nomadic

:34:44.:34:46.

lifestyle, there are many ways they work which are divot for them. In in

:34:47.:34:54.

many respects I imagine Sarah did ludicrous kind of 90 hour shifts,

:34:55.:35:00.

you are not doing that now? Sure with the greatest respect, Sarah,

:35:01.:35:04.

you are now an MP, you haven't been a doctor for some time, and you

:35:05.:35:08.

certainly haven't been a junior dock for for many years. Can I come back

:35:09.:35:13.

on that point. I would like to answer the question if I may. I am a

:35:14.:35:16.

junior doctor on the front line now, I know what is happening now. What I

:35:17.:35:20.

know now is recruitment and retention of junior doctors is so

:35:21.:35:24.

bad, that virtually every on call shift I work in my hospital, there

:35:25.:35:28.

is a gap in the rota t and to put that in terms that the public can

:35:29.:35:33.

understand, that means instead of carrying my crash bleep for cardiac

:35:34.:35:39.

arrest, my emergency bleep, where I am responsible for maybe one, 200

:35:40.:35:42.

patients who might have emergencies through the night. I get given the

:35:43.:35:46.

bleep of another doctor who isn't there because there is a gap. I am

:35:47.:35:52.

covering 400. This contract is going to reduce morale, and make reCruise

:35:53.:35:57.

cruetment and retention worse and hence the safety implications. --

:35:58.:36:02.

recruitment. To come back on the fact I used to teach doctor,

:36:03.:36:06.

including foundation two doctors in hospital, you know, and up until

:36:07.:36:11.

2015, I have a daughter who is a junior doctor currently spending a

:36:12.:36:14.

year in Australia, but of course it wasn't pay and conditions that

:36:15.:36:20.

drives many junior doctors to have that year abroad, it subpoena often

:36:21.:36:24.

other issues to how they can co-ordinate their rotas with their

:36:25.:36:27.

partners and so on. The argument will continue. Thank you both.

:36:28.:36:29.

You have not heard much about the Conservative Party's

:36:30.:36:32.

bullying scandal in recent weeks, partly because the party's inquiry

:36:33.:36:35.

into what went on and what went wrong is getting underway.

:36:36.:36:37.

It's meant to be an independent inquiry, run by a top law firm.

:36:38.:36:41.

For the party to put the scandal behind it,

:36:42.:36:43.

it needs that inquiry to be credible.

:36:44.:36:44.

However, Newsnight has learned that not all is going well.

:36:45.:36:47.

Some important witnesses are reluctant to take part,

:36:48.:36:49.

sceptical of the outcome, of of their evidence

:36:50.:36:51.

Nick Hopkins has been speaking to them.

:36:52.:36:59.

So tragic, the Prime Minister pledged an urgent investigation.

:37:00.:37:06.

It is not something that any parent should have to go through.

:37:07.:37:09.

What the Conservative Party must do and what it is doing and what I have

:37:10.:37:14.

ensured is happening is that there is a proper investigation.

:37:15.:37:21.

Over the past few days Newsnight has spoken to 14 people who count

:37:22.:37:24.

themselves as potentially key witnesses in the Tory bullying

:37:25.:37:26.

And nine of them have told us they will not give evidence.

:37:27.:37:35.

All of these nine are either former members of staff at CC HQ

:37:36.:37:40.

They say they were victims of bullying, sexual abuse,

:37:41.:37:48.

blackmail, but none of them have confidence in this investigation.

:37:49.:37:51.

This woman is refusing to participate in the inquiry.

:37:52.:37:53.

She fears witness intimidation, a legal threats.

:37:54.:37:58.

I am worried that Mark Clarke and his associates will find out

:37:59.:38:01.

who I am, link my ID with what I have said,

:38:02.:38:03.

and find out where I live, who I am, where I work.

:38:04.:38:07.

And that he and his associates will come after me and try to use

:38:08.:38:11.

force and intimidation to try to get me to retract

:38:12.:38:13.

In November, Natasha told Newsnight Clarke bullied

:38:14.:38:19.

The initial letter she and others received from the law firm

:38:20.:38:23.

inviting her to be a witness did little to dispel her anxiety.

:38:24.:38:25.

In December, Josh Hitchens discovered a complaint

:38:26.:38:48.

he had made to the party in 2014 about bullying appeared to have been

:38:49.:38:54.

Clifford Chance are gathering the evidence, so the witness

:38:55.:39:03.

transcripts and everything else, they are passing them directly

:39:04.:39:05.

to the Conservative Party Board, who will make an assessment of them,

:39:06.:39:09.

edit them and publish a report with them compiled.

:39:10.:39:17.

There's a lot of people I know, including myself, are unwilling

:39:18.:39:19.

to give evidence to this inquiry because we don't have confidence

:39:20.:39:22.

in the way that our evidence is going to be handled

:39:23.:39:25.

We don't believe it is an independent inquiry.

:39:26.:39:28.

That very fact there is a perception of lack of independence

:39:29.:39:30.

and integrity in the process nullifies it, because a lot lot

:39:31.:39:33.

and integrity in the process nullifies it, because a lot

:39:34.:39:36.

of people who have crucial bodies of evidence aren't willing

:39:37.:39:38.

to support that evidence, because they don't believe

:39:39.:39:40.

And that is the problem for the Tory party.

:39:41.:39:44.

To draw a line under this issue, to make sure that the situation

:39:45.:39:47.

never happens again, the inquiry has to be credible.

:39:48.:39:51.

And to be credible, all the key witnesses need to give evidence.

:39:52.:39:54.

If they don't, then the clamour of those who say the party failed

:39:55.:39:59.

in its duty of care to Elliott Johnson will only grow louder.

:40:00.:40:04.

It is an investigation by a commercial firm

:40:05.:40:10.

of solicitors who have had links with the Conservative Party

:40:11.:40:14.

into certain aspects of the Conservative

:40:15.:40:21.

Party behaviour along the terms of reference decided

:40:22.:40:23.

It is not an independent investigation.

:40:24.:40:27.

The inquiry into what happened in the

:40:28.:40:31.

Conservative Party is according to Clifford Chance of making good

:40:32.:40:34.

progress, and in a statement tonight, they said witnesses

:40:35.:40:36.

would be able to insist on confidentiality.

:40:37.:40:53.

The student vote is really important.

:40:54.:40:55.

Elliot Johnson's family are conducting their own

:40:56.:40:57.

inquiry into bullying within the Tory party.

:40:58.:40:59.

They think it is the only way to get to the truth.

:41:00.:41:02.

The Tory party says it can't say anything

:41:03.:41:04.

There is more David Bowie coming up here on BBC Two.

:41:05.:41:16.

Five years in the Making of an Icon the programme is called.

:41:17.:41:19.

So we leave you with Ziggy Stardust, performing Five Years

:41:20.:41:21.

on the Old Grey Whistle Test, 44 years ago in 1972.

:41:22.:41:24.

# If the black hadn't pulled her off.

:41:25.:41:40.

# I think she would have killed them.

:41:41.:41:47.

# Fixed his stare to the wheels of a Cadillac

:41:48.:41:55.

# A cop knelt and kissed the feet of a priest

:41:56.:42:00.

# And a queer threw up at the sight of that.

:42:01.:42:05.

# I think I saw you in an ice-cream parlour.

:42:06.:42:09.

# Drinking milkshakes, cold and long.

:42:10.:42:14.

# Smiling and waving and looking so fine.

:42:15.:42:18.

# Don't think you knew you were in my song

:42:19.:42:24.

Rtners and so on. The argument will continue. Thank you both.

:42:25.:42:57.

After the spring-like mild weather we saw,

:42:58.:42:58.

Newsnight examines the legacy of David Bowie, airing again his interview with Jeremy Paxman and speaking to Nile Rodgers, Tom Robinson and Bernard Sumner. Plus junior doctors and the Tory bullying row.


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