04/04/2016 Newsnight


04/04/2016

The Panama Papers. Glasgow lawyer targeted by Muslim extremists. Ex-pat Brits on Brexit. Ex-NZ pm Helen Clarke. Jennifer Knoll on 'The Luckiest Girl Alive'. With Kirsty Wark.


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Tax avoidance, corruption and money laundering of epic proportions...

:00:00.:00:08.

As the world wakes up to the enormity of the revelations

:00:09.:00:12.

in the Panama Papers, we'll ask why the world has failed

:00:13.:00:14.

What this confirms is that if you're in a position,

:00:15.:00:20.

in an official position, a political position,

:00:21.:00:23.

which allows you to earn a bit of gravy on the side

:00:24.:00:27.

through your position of influence, then it's very tempting to do so.

:00:28.:00:31.

Could there ever be a justification for this kind of behaviour?

:00:32.:00:35.

Also tonight: The Brits living in the EU.

:00:36.:00:46.

What do the ex-pats in Spain make of a possible Brexit?

:00:47.:00:48.

Because, whether it's right or wrong, I still

:00:49.:00:53.

believe that the UK is the best place in the world.

:00:54.:00:55.

And we talk to best selling American author Jessica Knoll,

:00:56.:01:01.

who has revealed - after a year of denials -

:01:02.:01:04.

that her thriller, Luckiest Girl Alive,

:01:05.:01:06.

about a teenager who has gang raped by her classmates,

:01:07.:01:09.

Money laundering, sanctions dodging and tax avoidance,

:01:10.:01:23.

not, you would automatically think, the behaviour of heads of state...

:01:24.:01:26.

The leak of 11 million documents from the Panamanian law firm

:01:27.:01:33.

Mossack Fonseca show that the company, who has never been

:01:34.:01:36.

charged with criminal wrongdoing, has helped some current

:01:37.:01:38.

or former heads of state, including Ukraine's President,

:01:39.:01:46.

and Iceland's Prime Minister and individuals linked to leaders

:01:47.:01:48.

such as Vladimir Putin and China's President Xi Jinping,

:01:49.:01:51.

find tax havens to hide their wealth.

:01:52.:01:52.

Simon Cox has been reporting on the story and joins me now.

:01:53.:01:55.

There was a welter of information last night and today about huge

:01:56.:02:00.

amounts of money being hidden away. What has happened since? It is one

:02:01.:02:04.

of those amazing stories where each hour there is a new revelation. I

:02:05.:02:08.

suppose one of the most significant today was about the relatives of

:02:09.:02:15.

Chinese leadership who had relations with Mossack Fonseca. Embarrassing

:02:16.:02:21.

for them because they made a big crackdown on corruption. And also

:02:22.:02:25.

Fifa, their lawyer, connected to their ethics committee, who has been

:02:26.:02:29.

helping these offshore companies. It is interesting seeing the numbers

:02:30.:02:34.

they are coming up with. Germany, 1000 people in the documents,

:02:35.:02:38.

Australia, 800 people in the documents. And HMRC saying they

:02:39.:02:42.

would like to get their hands on and see what is in those 11 million

:02:43.:02:46.

documents. So much more presumably still to come out. Now we will look

:02:47.:02:53.

it sanctions busting, what is happening tomorrow? We are talking

:02:54.:02:56.

about tax evasion, money-laundering, but what we have looked at is

:02:57.:03:01.

individuals and companies subject to sanctions who were clients of

:03:02.:03:08.

Mossack Fonseca. We looked at Syria, a really interesting tale about

:03:09.:03:13.

North Korea involving a bank and a British banker. Sanctions busting

:03:14.:03:19.

for North Korea? There was a company in North Korea and they were subject

:03:20.:03:22.

to sanctions and a British banker was involved in that company. A

:03:23.:03:26.

serious sanction, but it ended up it was sanctioned because it was linked

:03:27.:03:30.

to a bank providing funding for North Korea's nuclear weapons

:03:31.:03:35.

programme. Really serious. Thank you very much, Simon.

:03:36.:03:36.

Politicians of all stripes across Europe and the US have long

:03:37.:03:39.

pledged to crack down on tax havens - but the Panama Papers show that

:03:40.:03:43.

Will these latest revelations finally provide the impetus

:03:44.:03:46.

Here's our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban.

:03:47.:03:56.

One law firm, so many destinations, from the Alps to the Caribbean,

:03:57.:04:03.

places where offshore companies are used to hide wealth on a vast scale.

:04:04.:04:11.

And Panama law firm, Mossack Fonseca, is just a part of that. Yet

:04:12.:04:19.

it's hacked files show 143 some time politicians and officials from

:04:20.:04:23.

around the world among its clients. What chance then the tax haven

:04:24.:04:27.

reformer, when so many leaders are at it? I think the scale is

:04:28.:04:33.

enormous. I think what this confirms is if you are in a position, an

:04:34.:04:38.

official position, a political position, which allows you to earn a

:04:39.:04:42.

bit of gravy on the side through your position of influence, then it

:04:43.:04:47.

is very tempting to do so. Many remember the G8 Summit almost three

:04:48.:04:53.

years ago, only for this frosty Obama, Putin encounter. Several of

:04:54.:04:58.

the Russian President's close friends emerge in the Panama Papers,

:04:59.:05:01.

yet he and the other members signed up to the host agenda on the fight

:05:02.:05:08.

against offshore tax dodging. At the G8 I will push the international

:05:09.:05:12.

agreements to fight the scourge of tax evasion and aggressive tax

:05:13.:05:17.

avoidance. That means automatic exchange of information between our

:05:18.:05:20.

tax authorities, so those who want to evade taxes have nowhere to hide.

:05:21.:05:25.

On today's evidence there are all too many places to hide, and the

:05:26.:05:30.

UK's record of prosecuting successfully since 2010 just 11

:05:31.:05:36.

cases of offshore tax evasion is hardly impressive. We as a committee

:05:37.:05:40.

feel there should be more prosecutions to be a deterrent to

:05:41.:05:44.

people, to prove to the good taxpayer and the taxpayer and think

:05:45.:05:47.

they will get away with it, that if you are evade tax you will be

:05:48.:05:51.

prosecuted on possibly go to prison and if you aggressively avoid it,

:05:52.:05:57.

you will be caught. The American pressure group researches offshore

:05:58.:06:00.

financial activity and its index puts Switzerland top. The Cayman

:06:01.:06:05.

Islands coming fifth, with Panama at 13th, just ahead of the UK. But if

:06:06.:06:11.

you add the Cayman Islands and other overseas Territories to the British

:06:12.:06:16.

figure, it would come top. The Prime Minister has talked the talk and he

:06:17.:06:19.

has to prove he will walk the walk. He has a summit coming up in May

:06:20.:06:23.

looking at corruption. An ideal opportunity for him to take the

:06:24.:06:28.

issue on and try to tackle international tax havens with other

:06:29.:06:31.

countries. Also, the British government could go further, the tax

:06:32.:06:37.

transparency very easily by insisting companies publish their

:06:38.:06:41.

information in their companies house returns. From Panama to the Cayman

:06:42.:06:46.

Islands, allowing foreign companies to base themselves somewhere without

:06:47.:06:50.

tying them up with too much regulation has long been a way of

:06:51.:06:56.

generating revenue. But now the US is using its financial clout to

:06:57.:07:01.

impose foreign account compliance rural is on many smaller countries.

:07:02.:07:05.

Over the last few years the Americans have taken a number of

:07:06.:07:10.

steps, including the imposition of a law that requires offshore banks to

:07:11.:07:13.

report to the American authorities what money they are holding for US

:07:14.:07:18.

citizens, and they have also taken action against Fifa. I think the

:07:19.:07:21.

Americans are taking this seriously and if we want to be successful in

:07:22.:07:25.

making offshore havens transparent, we need the Americans to be fully

:07:26.:07:31.

committed. People in the offshore business have told us America's new

:07:32.:07:33.

disclosure rules have already had a big effect on their trade. Yet

:07:34.:07:39.

America will not reciprocally disposed to many foreign governments

:07:40.:07:45.

details of deposits in the USA, making it a more destination for

:07:46.:07:51.

money some people may wish to hide. And there is the dilemma, for

:07:52.:07:56.

governments like the US or the UK... Do they really want to crack down,

:07:57.:08:00.

or do they want to welcome all sorts of new foreign investors with tax

:08:01.:08:07.

breaks and, indeed, investor visas? Far from the Caribbean demonstrators

:08:08.:08:17.

gathered in Iceland to demand the resignation of their Premier.

:08:18.:08:22.

Today's allegations produced an immediate effect, but hardly any in

:08:23.:08:23.

China or Russia. Mark Urban. I'm joined now in the studio

:08:24.:08:27.

by Vince Cable the former Business Secretary from Paris,

:08:28.:08:30.

Grace Perez-Navarro from the OECD and in Washington DC, Dan Mitchell,

:08:31.:08:32.

economist at the Cato Institute. Good evening to you all. First,

:08:33.:08:42.

Vince Cable, did you have any idea of the extent of the corruption of

:08:43.:08:50.

sanctions busting until you saw the Panama Papers? Not the specifics but

:08:51.:08:54.

we knew there was large-scale tax avoidance and tax evasion going on.

:08:55.:08:59.

The reason why at the summit, which you described a few minutes ago,

:09:00.:09:03.

that the Prime Minister pushed for an open register of ownership, which

:09:04.:09:09.

we implemented, I introduced at the end of the last government, was

:09:10.:09:13.

precisely to make ownership transparent. The problem with that

:09:14.:09:17.

initiative is the Prime Minister in fighting these tax havens to come to

:09:18.:09:21.

London, the British dependencies, require them to have a serious

:09:22.:09:25.

similar register which would have made it impossible to hide these

:09:26.:09:29.

kind of things. What happened is these little places like the Virgin

:09:30.:09:33.

Islands told the British government to take a running jump. Absolutely

:09:34.:09:39.

no control? 50% British dependencies and there is nothing you can do? We

:09:40.:09:44.

can and we should do something about it. The mechanism that is open is to

:09:45.:09:48.

impose direct rule, which we did with the Turks. But what about AIDS?

:09:49.:09:56.

The richer ones to get any aid but if we do, we should be using it. --

:09:57.:10:02.

what about aid question mark is cracking down on corruption, making

:10:03.:10:06.

them have a full, open and transparent register would be one

:10:07.:10:10.

way of seeing through all this Merc. Would you favour that? Yes. On all

:10:11.:10:22.

the dependencies? Where the abuses are on that scale. The Virgin

:10:23.:10:26.

Islands at the top of the list. Can we go back to your time in power.

:10:27.:10:33.

Since 2010, as you heard in that report, only 11 UK prosecutions were

:10:34.:10:37.

brought for tax evasion on your watch. Surely that is a derisory

:10:38.:10:42.

amount. Yes, I will accept that criticism. I think what happened

:10:43.:10:47.

under this government, the coalition, the previous Labour

:10:48.:10:50.

government, is the resources available to HMRC, and this is a

:10:51.:10:53.

resource intensive business, well cut. Did you protest at the time? We

:10:54.:11:00.

did have arguments about priorities. We did other things, in choosing the

:11:01.:11:06.

anti-avoidance for all, requiring banks not to offer facilitation...

:11:07.:11:11.

Do you think there is expertise in the HMRC to deal with this at this

:11:12.:11:16.

level? This is rather complicated stuff and it does require a lot of

:11:17.:11:20.

resource and special people. If we are taking it seriously, there has

:11:21.:11:24.

to be proper resource. And there hasn't been for years. The OECD have

:11:25.:11:29.

come up with this idea of various reforms. But with these reforms,

:11:30.:11:34.

stop and the Russian oligarchs, stop the people in the Chinese bureau,

:11:35.:11:41.

stop the possibility Putin's needs have been sorting money away... Well

:11:42.:11:45.

anything you propose a fact that level of change? Well, I think here

:11:46.:11:51.

at the OECD what we have been trying to do is get all countries to

:11:52.:11:56.

improve their legal frameworks and level of cooperation they have

:11:57.:12:00.

between each other, in terms of sharing information, banking

:12:01.:12:05.

information, ownership information and so on. It's been a very

:12:06.:12:11.

difficult job but we have made great progress on global Forum on

:12:12.:12:17.

transparency, which now has 132 members. You might have heard our

:12:18.:12:22.

reporter saying earlier, the idea that Chinese politburo is involved

:12:23.:12:26.

is embarrassing for the Chinese because they have tried to crack

:12:27.:12:32.

down on this, which is a nonsense now, because if it goes right to the

:12:33.:12:36.

top, nothing you can do will stop that? I think that is quite

:12:37.:12:40.

pessimistic view, because I think the structures we have put in place

:12:41.:12:46.

for cooperation between has resulted in real change. There have been over

:12:47.:12:51.

800 legislative changes undertaken in different countries. There have

:12:52.:12:56.

been a number of exchanges of information between countries, and

:12:57.:13:03.

we have already, through voluntary disclosure programmes, in a board

:13:04.:13:07.

governments to collect $48 billion that they would not have otherwise

:13:08.:13:11.

collected without the threat of these initiatives. Dan Mitchell,

:13:12.:13:17.

what possible benign reason could there be for individuals and

:13:18.:13:25.

companies moving their money around, hiding money, creating shell

:13:26.:13:29.

companies and so forth to avoid tax? I think the reason we see a lot of

:13:30.:13:34.

this is international business requires international structures.

:13:35.:13:38.

If you are a wealthy investor, entrepreneur, business owner, you

:13:39.:13:41.

are doing cross-border activity, you want a structure in a tax neutral

:13:42.:13:47.

environment. So this notion there is something bad about having a company

:13:48.:13:51.

is ridiculous. It is like saying, we shouldn't allow cars to be sold

:13:52.:13:55.

because some people use them as getaway vehicles for bank robberies.

:13:56.:13:59.

I think if we want more global trade a more global investment, we

:14:00.:14:03.

shouldn't have governments trying to make international business Morkel

:14:04.:14:06.

freaky. If there are some bad guys, just like there are bad guys who'd

:14:07.:14:12.

use motors as getaway vehicles, by all means punish them. But don't let

:14:13.:14:17.

international bureaucracies like the OECD, the greatest tax dodge of all,

:14:18.:14:23.

they go around the world telling people to raise taxes. We should

:14:24.:14:27.

focus on low and simple tax rate, which makes it easy to comply, keep

:14:28.:14:33.

government more streamlined and let international business flow. Let's

:14:34.:14:37.

put this back to the OECD. A tax-free salary first of all factor

:14:38.:14:43.

please respond to Dan Mitchell. Well, my response is we fully

:14:44.:14:49.

support the idea of a low rate and broad-based tax, the problem is we

:14:50.:14:52.

need to get everyone paying those taxes. Right now what we have is a

:14:53.:14:59.

system where taxpayers can operate in a world without borders but tax

:15:00.:15:03.

authorities are restricted by their national boundaries, so they need a

:15:04.:15:06.

means by which they can work together, in order to be able to

:15:07.:15:13.

tackle these tax crimes, even Asian and fraught, that's what we're

:15:14.:15:16.

talking about. We are not talking about legitimate business. --

:15:17.:15:23.

invasion and fraud. If you have world leaders involved in this you

:15:24.:15:27.

will never clear it up? You can at least make it transparent and let

:15:28.:15:31.

the world see what's going on. This is where somebody has done a great

:15:32.:15:35.

public service by exposing to the public... Maybe you cannot stop bad

:15:36.:15:38.

behaviour on the other side of the world but you can show we know

:15:39.:15:43.

what's going on. Let's turn to look at present problem in the UK and

:15:44.:15:48.

that is Tata Steel and the future of Port Talbot. You said one of the

:15:49.:15:55.

deterrents to attracting a buyer is the pension pot. Sajid Javid talks

:15:56.:15:58.

about the Treasury perhaps taking over the pension pot. We had that is

:15:59.:16:04.

contrary to all is an EU state aid would it be out of the question? I

:16:05.:16:08.

don't think that is true. I was in government and we applied to the

:16:09.:16:11.

European Commission for state aid approval to take off the pension

:16:12.:16:12.

fund of the Royal Mail. The problem with is that it is

:16:13.:16:24.

losing a million a day, it is a different situation. -- the problem

:16:25.:16:29.

with Tata. It is not like Royal Mail in that way. I'm not a lawyer, but

:16:30.:16:34.

if I was Secretary of State at the moment, I would be expiring every

:16:35.:16:38.

opportunity to get that agreed. If you have a steel business in Wales

:16:39.:16:43.

and a steel business in Germany, the energy costs in Germany are half of

:16:44.:16:46.

what they were in the United Kingdom, do you think that green

:16:47.:16:51.

elegy problems are to blame? The reason why this was introduced, the

:16:52.:16:56.

biggest element, tax reasons and tax revenue rather than green. -- green

:16:57.:17:00.

energy problems. We were well aware of this, there was an environmental

:17:01.:17:04.

element in it, we would try to get to the root of the energy cost

:17:05.:17:08.

differentials, we spent years, we brought in a compensation scheme, we

:17:09.:17:12.

got the green value commission, for reasons I do not understand the

:17:13.:17:15.

Treasury have been reluctant to pay cut out, steel companies, like in

:17:16.:17:19.

South Wales, they say they do not have any of the money but it has

:17:20.:17:22.

been approved, that should be paid. Thank you very much.

:17:23.:17:29.

The prominent Scottish Asian Human Right's lawyer who was a leader

:17:30.:17:32.

of the Stop The War coalition, Aamer Anwar, has revealed

:17:33.:17:34.

that he has received death threats after convening and chairing

:17:35.:17:36.

an ecumenical meeting after the killing of a Scottish Asian

:17:37.:17:39.

shopkeeper Asad Shah, who was stabbed 30 times

:17:40.:17:41.

after posted an Easter greeting message to his

:17:42.:17:43.

VOICEOVER: It was a killing that rocked a community.

:17:44.:17:48.

Asad Shah, a Glasgow shopkeeper, filmed here in his shop in August,

:17:49.:17:51.

was found stabbed to death in a nearby street on 24th March.

:17:52.:17:54.

Hours earlier he'd posted a message on Facebook wishing the local

:17:55.:17:56.

Christian community a happy Easter, and the police

:17:57.:17:58.

are treating his murder as religiously motivated.

:17:59.:18:00.

In response, prominent local human rights lawyer Aamer Anwar brought

:18:01.:18:02.

Glasgow's religious leaders together in a call for tolerance and harmony.

:18:03.:18:10.

We do not want to import sectarian violence that has caused so much

:18:11.:18:19.

division and so much bloodshed in Pakistan to our communities and

:18:20.:18:20.

streets. But what was a plea

:18:21.:18:22.

for peace, has angered some. Mr Anwar has received angry

:18:23.:18:24.

messages on social media. After handling many controversial

:18:25.:18:26.

cases, he says he's used to that. But now, he faces something far

:18:27.:18:29.

graver, more direct threats that

:18:30.:18:31.

have sparked a police investigation and led Mr Anwar

:18:32.:18:34.

to fear for his life. Mr Anwar says he is now concerned

:18:35.:18:41.

about escalating factional hatred STUDIO: Aamer Anwar is with us

:18:42.:18:43.

in our Glasgow studio. Aamer, because there's an ongoing

:18:44.:18:53.

police investigation, we're limited in what we can

:18:54.:18:55.

say about these new, You have had many threats in the

:18:56.:19:09.

past, you have said, but in a different order.

:19:10.:19:12.

-- of a different order. Why is it important for you to make this

:19:13.:19:18.

public? I have been fighting against racism 525 years but this was

:19:19.:19:22.

different, because this is actually a small minority from within the

:19:23.:19:26.

community who thought that because I dissented, because I condemned what

:19:27.:19:33.

I consider to be controversial comments, by individuals within my

:19:34.:19:37.

community, on the question of sectarian violence, on the question

:19:38.:19:40.

of blasphemy laws, etc, it seemed as though I was fair game, it seemed to

:19:41.:19:45.

give the green light to create a climate of fear through which they

:19:46.:19:50.

thought it was OK for individuals to put abuse online, creating bogus

:19:51.:19:54.

petitions online, attacking me and my reputation. To threaten me, to

:19:55.:20:02.

call me an unbeliever, to call me an unbeliever for which the punishment

:20:03.:20:05.

is one of death, that is the work they have used, in Arabic. That is

:20:06.:20:10.

beyond the pale. Creating a climate of fear, we need to have a debate in

:20:11.:20:16.

the community. There has been a climate of fear since 9/11 within

:20:17.:20:21.

the Muslim community because it has been criminalised and targeted. That

:20:22.:20:25.

does not mean that you close down debate windows within the community

:20:26.:20:28.

want to be critical, when they want to raise issues of concern. As the

:20:29.:20:32.

threat that you have received come from abroad, or has it come from the

:20:33.:20:39.

UK? -- has the threat. I cannot go into specific details but it is

:20:40.:20:44.

within the UK and that is a matter for the police investigation. You

:20:45.:20:48.

have been under pressure from family and friends to withdraw from any

:20:49.:20:52.

kind of involvement, to reconcile some of the different groups in the

:20:53.:20:57.

community, some of whom, as you say, take a very hard line on blasphemy

:20:58.:21:02.

laws, some who are much more tolerant parts of the community. Why

:21:03.:21:07.

are you not now stepping back? It has been a creamy difficult, my

:21:08.:21:11.

family and friends, members of the community, has said it is not worth

:21:12.:21:15.

it, put your young family first. I have got to say, it was

:21:16.:21:18.

heartbreaking when one night last week I had to go out, for a meeting

:21:19.:21:22.

with local community leaders, and I kissed my children good night. I

:21:23.:21:27.

held them longer than I normally would, trying to get out of the

:21:28.:21:31.

door. I thought, the thought that went through my head, will this be

:21:32.:21:35.

the last time I see my children? It would have been a creamy easy for me

:21:36.:21:39.

to have walked away. I keep asking that question, my family keep asking

:21:40.:21:44.

me to walk away. That is wrong. It is about my children's future. -- it

:21:45.:21:50.

would have been extremely easy. As I said in the news these early on, I

:21:51.:21:54.

do not want to see the importation of extremist politics from Pakistan,

:21:55.:22:09.

I do not want that. Some say that could be inflammatory. It should not

:22:10.:22:13.

be seen as inflammatory. Using to be saying there is a problem in this

:22:14.:22:17.

country about speaking out. For whatever reason in the past you feel

:22:18.:22:22.

there has been a demonisation of the British Asian community, there is a

:22:23.:22:26.

problem speaking out. -- you seem to be saying. So people will not stand

:22:27.:22:30.

up against extremism in this country, and that is a real concern

:22:31.:22:34.

of yours. Yes, there is an underlying current, people feel they

:22:35.:22:37.

cannot speak out and if they do they will be targeted and silenced and

:22:38.:22:45.

are they splintering, is the British community is entering into those who

:22:46.:22:48.

will speak out, very few, those who won't, and those who do not condemn

:22:49.:22:56.

the killing of the Punjabi politician because he spoke out

:22:57.:23:01.

against laws. It is important to emphasise that the Glasgow Central

:23:02.:23:04.

Mosque actually managed to come together, the first time ever in the

:23:05.:23:12.

UK that we saw representatives with Pakistani Christians coming

:23:13.:23:17.

together, a Sunni imam even, and when we broke at this meeting I said

:23:18.:23:20.

to the police, this issue is far too great, it is about our future, when

:23:21.:23:24.

we see the loss of one life on our streets, it is one life to many.

:23:25.:23:28.

People have to put aside differences and egos, and they also understood

:23:29.:23:33.

there is individuals within our community, a small minority, who

:23:34.:23:36.

seem to think that what they say in private does not matter. It does

:23:37.:23:40.

matter, that filters out to how they conduct themselves publicly, and if

:23:41.:23:43.

they get with politics in Pakistan and think that is cut off point,

:23:44.:23:47.

that somehow it will not have an impact, then they are wrong. We have

:23:48.:23:52.

seen that, in other situations. The mosques down south, women who have

:23:53.:23:56.

spoken out have been criticised and attacked and abuse online and yet I

:23:57.:23:59.

find myself in the same situation in Scotland. Thank you very much

:24:00.:24:07.

rejoining us. -- thank you very much for joining us.

:24:08.:24:10.

The UN is looking for a new Secretary General.

:24:11.:24:12.

Head of the United Nations Secretariat and Spokesperson

:24:13.:24:15.

Budget? $5.4b billion and rising.

:24:16.:24:18.

Term? Can be indefinite,

:24:19.:24:19.

but usually restricted to two five year stints.

:24:20.:24:21.

Remit? The World!

:24:22.:24:22.

An diplomatic and troubleshooting skills essential.

:24:23.:24:24.

Since its inception in 1945, nine people have held

:24:25.:24:26.

This time, at least one woman wants it.

:24:27.:24:30.

Helen Clark, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand,

:24:31.:24:32.

has just announced she will be running.

:24:33.:24:34.

I spoke to her from New York an hour ago.

:24:35.:24:37.

I started by asking her about the role that the UN plays in global

:24:38.:24:43.

crisis and why they are often criticised for not reacting fast

:24:44.:24:47.

enough. Taking the Syria crisis, from the outset the

:24:48.:24:51.

Secretary-General did appoint a special envoy, Kofi and nine, and

:24:52.:24:55.

curvy in and was followed by Mr Brahimi, and another, and another,

:24:56.:25:02.

and they are talking as we speak in recess at the moment. -- Kofi Annan.

:25:03.:25:07.

The Syria talks are under way and for the sake of the people of Syria,

:25:08.:25:11.

I hope they will succeed. Everything else we do is like a Band Aid as

:25:12.:25:17.

long as there is not peace in Syria. What about the Ebola virus crisis,

:25:18.:25:21.

it has been criticised for the way that they did not handle it. The

:25:22.:25:27.

Secretary-General stepped in. With a special mission to mobilise support.

:25:28.:25:33.

My own organisation was very active. It has led for the UN on the

:25:34.:25:39.

recovery process. At the very top, looking at the Security Council and

:25:40.:25:42.

the five permanent members, which looks like a gentleman 's club of

:25:43.:25:48.

old powers, not new emerging, and that Security Council has a veto. Do

:25:49.:25:52.

you think the make-up of the Security Council is wrong? The

:25:53.:25:57.

Security Council reflects the geopolitical realities of 1945. I

:25:58.:26:01.

have been a Prime Minister, engaged with my country on issues of

:26:02.:26:04.

Security Council reform, I would like the Security Council to look

:26:05.:26:07.

more like the 21st-century world that we live in today. What

:26:08.:26:13.

countries would be in that? There is a group of four that have banded

:26:14.:26:16.

together for many years: Germany, Japan, India, Brazil is outstanding

:26:17.:26:22.

of the standards. Then there has also been the proposal alongside

:26:23.:26:28.

that for permanent and Bishop for two places from Africa, and other

:26:29.:26:33.

suggestions as well. -- permanent membership. As constructed in 1945,

:26:34.:26:38.

before many of today's member states in the UN were independent nations,

:26:39.:26:42.

the Security Council does not reflect the geopolitics we see

:26:43.:26:46.

today. And as you say, the world looks very different from what it

:26:47.:26:50.

did in 1945, what is the justification for the United Kingdom

:26:51.:26:53.

for having a permanent place on the Security Council? 1945, coming out

:26:54.:27:02.

of the disaster of World War II, the United Kingdom was a great power and

:27:03.:27:06.

is still a very significant power, but the member states will have to

:27:07.:27:10.

sort this out, whatever technical experts, secretaries, support the

:27:11.:27:14.

organisation, can give, it will. In the end, it is a member state

:27:15.:27:19.

decision as to what they want it to look like. Looking at the United

:27:20.:27:25.

Nations since 1945, there have been nine Secretary-General, none have

:27:26.:27:28.

been a woman. With the fact of being a woman and a former leader of a

:27:29.:27:33.

country put you in a different kind of footing? I am not campaigning as

:27:34.:27:38.

a woman candidate, I am campaigning as the best person to the job.

:27:39.:27:42.

Obviously I am a woman and as someone who has been a long-time

:27:43.:27:45.

advocate of women's empowerment and gender equality, I like to see women

:27:46.:27:50.

get to the top of whatever field in life. If there is one thing that the

:27:51.:27:54.

United Nations should be achieving now that it has not achieved, what

:27:55.:28:01.

is it? Developing the skills required for the new kinds of

:28:02.:28:05.

conflicts. The conflict we are seeing are by and large not those

:28:06.:28:08.

that were envisaged when the charter was written, when the idea was to

:28:09.:28:13.

banish war between nations, by and large, with few exceptions, that has

:28:14.:28:19.

been achieved. We see so much conflict, civil wars, disparate,

:28:20.:28:21.

non-state actors in these complex, violent extremists. This calls for

:28:22.:28:26.

different approaches and for the United Nations with its strong

:28:27.:28:29.

development, he managed Aryan, human rights, building of peacekeeping

:28:30.:28:36.

arms, -- humanitarian. We need to make a real difference and we need

:28:37.:28:38.

to play as a team. The latest opinion polls on the EU

:28:39.:28:47.

Referendum suggest that the result will be close so both Leave

:28:48.:28:50.

and Remain campaigns will be chasing down every last vote,

:28:51.:28:53.

and millions of those It's estimated that 5.5

:28:54.:28:55.

million UK nationals live beyond our shores, and if they have

:28:56.:28:58.

been on the electoral register in the past 15 years

:28:59.:29:01.

they will be eligible to vote So what does EU membership look

:29:02.:29:03.

like from where they live? Secunder Kermani reports from that

:29:04.:29:07.

British haven in Spain, VOICEOVER: Around 2 million Brits

:29:08.:29:10.

live in the continental EU, I love Spain.

:29:11.:29:40.

I love the Spanish people. And the sunshine, obviously!

:29:41.:29:43.

Many end up in the Costa Del Sol. We took this over,

:29:44.:29:46.

lock, stock and barrel. Brits have been here for decades,

:29:47.:29:48.

but now with the possibility of a Brexit, there is definitely

:29:49.:29:52.

a sense of trouble in paradise. who now spends his time looking

:29:53.:29:55.

after stray Spanish donkeys Ron's horrified at the possibility

:29:56.:30:01.

of a Brexit. He's even more angry

:30:02.:30:08.

that he won't be allowed a vote, as he left the UK more

:30:09.:30:11.

than 15 years ago. I still hold, and my wife,

:30:12.:30:16.

holds a British passport. Ron, like many expats,

:30:17.:30:18.

is a Spanish resident, I could seek Spanish nationality

:30:19.:30:30.

now, I've been here long enough, I want to be British.

:30:31.:30:37.

Why? Because, whether it's right

:30:38.:30:40.

or wrong, I still believe Maybe not to live, but it's

:30:41.:30:43.

still the best place in the world. concerned at the prospect

:30:44.:31:01.

of being cut adrift from Britain, thousands of others here can

:31:02.:31:07.

vote in June. More than half the British expats

:31:08.:31:14.

here in Spain are reportedly over 50 years old, and many of them are now

:31:15.:31:17.

worried about what the EU referendum could mean for their plans

:31:18.:31:21.

for retirement in the sun. One rather dramatic phrase that's

:31:22.:31:23.

been going round the community as they could all be turned

:31:24.:31:25.

into illegal immigrants overnight. This bowling club is where Malaga

:31:26.:31:31.

meets Middle England. The big concerns here,

:31:32.:31:45.

other than the rub of the green, are access to health

:31:46.:31:56.

care and pensions. Brits here get free medical

:31:57.:31:58.

treatment, but that could come I do suffer from diabetes and one

:31:59.:32:00.

or two other conditions. They look after me,

:32:01.:32:10.

whether that will continue And if you had to start

:32:11.:32:15.

paying for a privately? Then we would have

:32:16.:32:19.

to go back to England. What kind of stuff are people

:32:20.:32:23.

talking about, then? It affects a lot of people here,

:32:24.:32:25.

if their pensions are going Will that make life a lot harder

:32:26.:32:32.

for people, do you think? They've already lost their heating

:32:33.:32:36.

allowance, and that's affected It does get cold over here,

:32:37.:32:40.

you do need heating over But other pensioners here are more

:32:41.:32:44.

worried about what they see I have a daughter in Tunbridge Wells

:32:45.:32:49.

and we regularly go and visit. And when I walk round

:32:50.:32:58.

Tunbridge Wells, the shopping centre, I rarely hear

:32:59.:33:02.

an English person. Tunbridge Wells 20 years ago

:33:03.:33:06.

was a lovely place to live, and now they have

:33:07.:33:14.

their own pubs, etc. Isn't that a bit like the British

:33:15.:33:16.

people here in the Costa Del Sol? You come to live in Spain,

:33:17.:33:20.

the Spanish government There are plenty of pubs,

:33:21.:33:23.

restaurants and bars catering for British people

:33:24.:33:27.

on the Costa Del Sol. In Spainsburys you can get

:33:28.:33:39.

all your favourites from home. With 80% of their stock

:33:40.:33:41.

brought over from Britain, the owners worry getting their hands

:33:42.:33:55.

on vital imports likr expats favourite sauces,

:33:56.:33:58.

will be much harder. What's the biggest sellers

:33:59.:33:59.

for the British customers? That has to come,

:34:00.:34:01.

imported in, does it? You can buy the Spanish equivalent

:34:02.:34:06.

of our most popular brand in the UK, but again, they don't seem

:34:07.:34:10.

to taste the same. Do you think it could be a lot

:34:11.:34:12.

harder to import all this type I hope not, but quite possibly,

:34:13.:34:20.

yeah. Big Dave has dished up his fair

:34:21.:34:23.

share of baked beans. He owns one of the most popular

:34:24.:34:32.

cafes on the Costa Del Sol. Roast beef and Yorkshire

:34:33.:34:36.

pudding on Sunday... Dave's worried that leaving the EU

:34:37.:34:42.

could mean fewer customers They're already talking

:34:43.:34:47.

about shutting orders and checking British people's passport

:34:48.:34:56.

and visas for us. I've been here 15 years,

:34:57.:34:57.

what's going to change then? You have an immigration problem

:34:58.:35:00.

at home at the moment with immigrants

:35:01.:35:08.

coming back in. I don't know how many Brits

:35:09.:35:09.

in Europe at the moment... We would be a massive strain

:35:10.:35:12.

on the NHS if we all turn up, overweight, nice and suntanned

:35:13.:35:20.

but looking for some free health cover and maybe a house or somewhere

:35:21.:35:25.

to live because we've just been thrown out of Spain,

:35:26.:35:28.

because you've said Even though most people

:35:29.:35:30.

here are in favour of staying in Europe, worried what a Brexit

:35:31.:35:39.

would mean for them, many say if they were in Britain

:35:40.:35:42.

they might be voting differently, an indication perhaps of how

:35:43.:35:46.

divisive this referendum really is. When first time author

:35:47.:35:59.

Jessica Knoll's thriller Luckiest Girl Alive was published

:36:00.:36:01.

last year it garnered brilliant reviews, sold all over the world

:36:02.:36:03.

and spent four months It was the darkest and most

:36:04.:36:06.

terrfiying of stories about a young outwardly successful

:36:07.:36:15.

young woman in New York, Ani Fanelli,

:36:16.:36:16.

who is hiding a dreadful secret. As a teenager she was gang raped

:36:17.:36:18.

by three boys at her upscale private Now, a year after publication,

:36:19.:36:22.

and after repeatedly being asked the question and denying it,

:36:23.:36:27.

Jessica Knoll has revealed in an essay on Lena Dunham's website

:36:28.:36:31.

that what happened to Ani Fanelli, was inspired by what happened

:36:32.:36:36.

to her. This paradigm shift has caused

:36:37.:36:37.

a sensation and Jessica Knoll says Good evening, Jessica. You were

:36:38.:36:50.

constantly asked if this book was based on you when the hardback came

:36:51.:36:55.

out and you constantly denied it. Why did you stay silent for so long?

:36:56.:37:01.

I think it was just a matter of being conditioned to being silent

:37:02.:37:06.

about it. When this first happened to me I did try to talk about and I

:37:07.:37:11.

did try to ask for help and it was like I was shot down where ever I

:37:12.:37:15.

was turned and told not to talk about this, that nothing bad had

:37:16.:37:20.

happened to me. That is how I internalised it and spend the next

:37:21.:37:23.

17 years of my life, not talking about it and feeling... It would

:37:24.:37:31.

make people feel uncomfortable to talk about. In the book there is a

:37:32.:37:36.

scene where Ani Fanelli, after what happens to, goes to a doctor and

:37:37.:37:41.

asks the doctor if he thinks she has been raped and they say, I'm not

:37:42.:37:46.

qualified to say. That did happen to you. I wonder if that doctor said

:37:47.:37:50.

yes, you were raped, if your life would be different? I think it is a

:37:51.:37:56.

real possibility. What I was looking for then was someone to give me a

:37:57.:38:02.

voice, and someone to say, yes, you were raped, that did happen to you.

:38:03.:38:07.

I wonder if I felt I had any measure of support, especially from an

:38:08.:38:12.

authority figure or an adult, if the situation would have turned out

:38:13.:38:18.

differently. You then decided to confess. Why did you put your essay

:38:19.:38:25.

on Lena Dunham's site? I think it is an amazing platform. I'm a big

:38:26.:38:37.

admirer. A big admirer of Lena Dunham and of the editor and chief

:38:38.:38:40.

of their site. They were supportive of the book when it first came out

:38:41.:38:44.

and said, if you ever want to write anything for us, please let us know.

:38:45.:38:49.

That was probably about 8-9 months ago. That stayed with me and when I

:38:50.:38:53.

decided I did want to write about this, they were the first people I

:38:54.:38:58.

turned to. Why did you make the decision to come clean? I think it

:38:59.:39:03.

was just knowing I was about to go on a tour for the paperback release

:39:04.:39:11.

here in the states and knowing I was going to be asked this question

:39:12.:39:13.

again and again in every city where I docked. Did something similar

:39:14.:39:20.

happened to you that happened to Ani Fanelli, or how did you write that

:39:21.:39:28.

seems so specifically? I did a very awkward song and dance and I didn't

:39:29.:39:32.

want to do that any more. I wanted to speak candidly. What we must

:39:33.:39:37.

remember is this is the start now, because you have said this, of

:39:38.:39:42.

course a difficult process for you personally? Well, yes. This is all

:39:43.:39:48.

part of the healing process, which I never went through when I was

:39:49.:39:53.

younger. I buried it. Now I'm talking about it, and now I'm

:39:54.:39:57.

actually dealing with it. I'm hurting about it and crying about

:39:58.:40:01.

it, and those are all good things, but they are very hard. This is the

:40:02.:40:06.

beginning of a long, overdue healing process. I was going to say, do you

:40:07.:40:11.

think the act of talking about it now is bringing some measure of

:40:12.:40:17.

relief? Not necessarily relief, but what it's bringing me is a sense of

:40:18.:40:22.

strength and power. I didn't have a voice when I was younger. Nobody

:40:23.:40:26.

stood up for me. I tried to stand up for myself and I wasn't able to. Now

:40:27.:40:31.

I'm able to do that and supported in doing that, so it's a very

:40:32.:40:37.

empowering feeling. Just because I think the book has appealed to so

:40:38.:40:41.

many young women and has done the rounds. You have written a

:40:42.:40:44.

screenplay and so forth. I wonder what you would say to other young

:40:45.:40:49.

women... The point of this is at the age of 14 and 15, would you say to

:40:50.:40:54.

them, keep pushing, you have to tell people? Because for them there is no

:40:55.:40:58.

great revelation of healing in your book. I mean, I don't presume to

:40:59.:41:05.

tell anyone and what to do with her own experiences. The essay, what I

:41:06.:41:13.

was hoping to do in writing that essay was to let women like that

:41:14.:41:18.

know that they are not alone. If I had written an essay like that when

:41:19.:41:22.

I was 15 it would have meant the world to me. I hope someone is able

:41:23.:41:27.

to read it and feel a connection to me and to know that all this

:41:28.:41:30.

wonderful support I have received over the last week is also support

:41:31.:41:35.

for them. How have your parents been? This is the must be difficult

:41:36.:41:40.

for them to see go through this recently? It has been very difficult

:41:41.:41:45.

for them, no parent wants to see their child in pain or know they

:41:46.:41:48.

have carried something as awful as this with them for all these years.

:41:49.:41:52.

At the end of the day they understand completely why I did this

:41:53.:41:56.

and are very proud of me. Jessica, thank very much.

:41:57.:41:59.

That's all we have time for - I am back tomorrow -

:42:00.:42:16.

A very good evening to you. The downpours of

:42:17.:42:17.