Browse content similar to 07/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It took a few days, but he finally got there. | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
The PM says yes, he did have a stake in his Dad's offshore fund. | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
We'll ask Labour's deputy leader why he thinks it might be | :00:11. | :00:18. | |
We had a joint account. We owned 5,000 ewe anies in Blairmore | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
investment trust which we sold in January 2010. | :00:27. | :00:28. | |
We'll ask Labour's deputy leader why he thinks it might be | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
The Government promises the unions that Tata Steel | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
We'll ask the front runner to buy it, Sanjeev Gupta, | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Does satire tell us more about politics than politicians do? | :00:43. | :01:06. | |
He's not quite in Prime Minister of Iceland territory, | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
but David Cameron is paddling in a pool of poo this evening, | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
admitting he had benefited from offshore investments | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
of the kind everybody in public life is now embarrassed | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
He had a personal stake in his father's Blairmore fund, | :01:18. | :01:25. | |
the offshore nature of which was exposed | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
But, you might argue, he thinks it's enough a problem | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
that he didn't want to tell us about it. | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
After all, we've had a series of statements this week | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
about his financial affairs that now look crafted to avoid lying, | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
but avoid telling us the whole situation. | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
The holding statements didn't hold, and he came on ITV to tell all. | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
Units in Blairmore investment trust which we sold in January 2010. | :01:51. | :01:59. | |
After days of evading and avoiding questions about his finance, the | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
Prime Minister's finally come clear about Blairmore holdings, the | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
company set up by his father. Samantha and I had a joint account. | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
We owned 5,000 units in Blairmore investment trust, which we sold in | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
January 2010. That was worth something like ?30,000. Was there a | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
profit on it? I paid income tax on the dividend but there was a profit | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
on it but it was less than the capital gains tax allowance, but it | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
was shouldn't to all the UK taxes in the normal ways. A former tax | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
inspector explained to us why the funds are based in places like | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
Panama. The idea you would get some quiet serious tax advantage, people | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
could invest in a fund in somewhere like Panama, and when that fund | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
earned income, they wouldn't be taxed on it. So income would roll | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
up, offshore for as long as they wanted and they would only be | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
taxable when they took the money out, either as dividends or by | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
selling their shares, in which case there would be capital gapes tax. A | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
major problem for the Prime Minister is how the information emerged. | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
On Monday the Prime Minister's spokesperson said where his money | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
was invested was a private matter. On Tuesday, this was Mr Cameron's | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
reply to a Sky News question on whether he had previously invested | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
in Blairmore. I own no share, I have a salary as Prime Minister, and I | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
have some savings, which I get some interest from and I have a house, | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
which we used to Li in, which we let out while we are living in Downing | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
Street. That is all I have. I have no share, no offshore trust, no | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
funds, nothing like that. A statement issued later on Tuesday | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
said that the Prime Minister, his wife and her children do not benefit | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
from any offshore funds. Yesterday, Downing Street clarified further, | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
there are no offshore funds or trusts with which the Prime | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
Minister, Mrs Cameron or their children will benefit from in | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
future. And that leads us to today. This is obviously not good for the | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
Prime Minister. First of all, he eshoed several opportunities to come | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
clean about this and he chose not to take them. O so today he looks | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
slippery. Secondly and this is less important because we know this | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
already, it shows how privilege his back ground was, it brings up the | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
job his if o father hand and the name of the fund itself is a | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
testament to the grandness of the Cameron family. | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
Blairmore is nameled after the Cameron's home, here in | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
Aberdeenshire. And now, a Christian retreat. | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
Today, above all, Mr Cameron was keen to defend his late father's | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
reputation. I think a lot of the criticisms are based on a | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
fundamental misconreception -- misconception which is Blairmore was | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
set up with the idea of avoiding tax. It wasn't, it was set up after | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
exchange controls went so that people who wanted to invest in | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
dollar denominated shares in companies could do so. | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
I am not clear why he said that this fund was set up so that investors | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
could put money into non-sterling assets. I am not clear why they | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
needed to go to Panama to do that, they could have done that in London. | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
One thing in particular, raises some suspicion, and that is why Blairmore | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
is constituted as a company with bearer share, because those shares | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
don't require the owners to identify themselves, so it becomes more | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
difficult for tax authorities to trace who has taken the income from | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
those companies. The Inland Revenue was once relaxed about funds like | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
that. Ministers wanted PMQs like Mr Cameron's father do what he did. But | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
one person's investing is another 's tax avoidance. | :06:06. | :06:06. | |
Joining us now from his West Bromich constituency is Labour's | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
Ho outraged you tonight? Well, I am confused really, we have had a | :06:11. | :06:21. | |
series of answers from the PM, that are, just seem the lead to more | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
questions. What I think people will expect him to do tonight, is be very | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
clear about what other investments and vehicles he has had as an MP. | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
There was a relative confidence his financial affairs were in good order | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
until he had that dragged out of him earlier this evening. Now people | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
need to know what other shares did he have many Blairmore? Did he | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
dispose of any other shareholdings, has he used any other vehicles as a | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
way of generating income, and offshore accounts we don't know | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
about yet? Can I be clear, are you accusing, you think he was doing | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
this to avoid tax? Or do you think he in any way evaded tax, or... What | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
exactly is the offence that he has committed here? Well, I don't know | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
the Prime Minister's full circumstances, none of us do yet. We | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
have been getting these incremental admittances that he had an | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
investment in an offshore vehicle, that most people think is used to | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
avoid paying tax. Now, that is fine, if you are a normal investor, it | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
might, we might not agree wit it is fine, when you are the Prime | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
Minister, the most powerful man in the land, responsible for framing | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
tax reform, and clamping down on tax avoidance, and you have made | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
speeches, that you are in favour of transparency, heralding a new age | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
and sunlight being the best disinfectant and naming high profile | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
individuals who use things like this and describing them as morally | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
wrong, to admit you have had similar style investment lends you to the | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
acquisition of being a hypocrite. He wasn't Prime Minister, he sold them | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
before he became Prime Minister, didn't he. Is it impossible as a | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
human being to say I have done this, I am a poacher turned gamekeeper, it | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
is better if people like me don't do things like this, I become Prime | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
Minister and try and stop it, what is wrong with that in Well, he was | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
leader of the op six and the point is, he has made judgments on people | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
as Prime Minister, for doing what he used to do, and I don't think it is | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
a good look for a Prime Minister to use the line say as I do, do as I | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
say, not as I do. And it, the avoidance of legitimate journalistic | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
questions in the last three day, just means there are going to be | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
more questions about what his financial arrangements both as | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
Leader of the Opposition and as an MP. I don't think it is unreasonable | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
for people to ask nose questions. You suggested there may be an issue, | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
I am not wanting to overstate what you said, you said there may be an | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
issue of resignation here. Seriously? He has invested in a tax | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
efficient offshore fund, is that seriously something a Prime Minister | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
thinks about resignation over? I have not suggested that and I don't | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
know the facts of the Prime Minister's financial arrangements to | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
be able to draw that. I was asked in another interview if it was a | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
resignation issue, I said maybe but we don't have the facts. What I | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
think we need to do, is you know, what other questions does that | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
rather Eva sieve three days of answers give us? I think we | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
certainly need to know what other investments David Cameron had when | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
he was Leader of the Opposition. Aren't you coming to the conclusion | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
that anyone in very senior office, like the candidates for Mayor of | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
London, basically have to open up their tax returns and tell us Egg. | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
You are really saying you are not accepting anything he says on trust, | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
he just has to keep telling us until we have every last penny in his bank | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
account I need to be careful about this. He said tonight he thinks he | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
is going to get to a position where he could publish his tax return, but | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
that won't show what investment vehicles he had. And the issue, the | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
issue, the difficulty for the Prime Minister is, this is a particular | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
vehicle that most people think is used to avoid paying tax, and I | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
don't think people want their Prime Minister to be in that situation, | :10:41. | :10:42. | |
and I don't think they want any politicians to be, so we are | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
certainly moving to a point where there will have to be more | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
transparency for powerful people, particularly ministers who are | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
responsible for tax legislation. ? One last question, do you accept his | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
word, when he says, he paid all the tax, the capital gains tax he didn't | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
need to pay, because he didn't apply, and the income tax, he paid | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
all the UK tax, that were due, on a legitimate and legal overseas | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
investment? Well, I certainly hope he wasn't lying to the British | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
people. He certainly wasn't answering all the questions the | :11:18. | :11:19. | |
journalists were asking on their behalf. The point is it has taken | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
three days to get to this point. Had he given a straight answer he would | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
be be in a much better position this evening. As it happens he has | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
aroused curiosity and it makes you think, if he had to admit tonight, | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
what other shareholdings may he have, he will need the clean that up | :11:40. | :11:40. | |
tomorrow. we start on the cover up not the | :11:41. | :11:58. | |
crime. Isn't that the problem for David Cameron, he has obfuscated | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
over this and then had to admit it. In so far as there is political | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
damage it is because he didn't make a full disclosure, about exactly how | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
he benefitted from his father's investments, and offshore fund, on | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
day one, so he has created the impression that he has something to | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
hide, but now he has come out, and made what looks very much like a | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
full disclosure and is about to publish his tax return, it turns out | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
he had nothing to hide in the first place. I can see why Labour are | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
trying to do their best to make as much capital out of this as they can | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
and make it look like he has been engaged in an attempt to cover | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
something up. Now that we have the full tacts were us, which it looks | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
like we do, it looks like we do, it doesn't seem as if he was covering | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
something up. I used the word crime. You don't think there is any crime | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
here, you don't think there is any problem here of being Leader of the | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
Opposition, he was not Prime Minister, he did it before the | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
election made him Prime Minister, there is no problem Leader of the | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
Opposition, investments, in an offshore fund, that had bearer | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
shares which everything knows are the not the best, in an up right way | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
of issues documentary support for your holdings, a smell of any kind? | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
I am not a tax lawyer, so I don't know why Ian Cameron set up the fund | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
in Panama, but... It was very tax efficient. The Prime Minister said | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
it wasn't a tax avoidance vehicle, it was set up for the purposes of | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
dealing in, non-sterling shares and so forth, and when it was set up in | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
1982, unlike what Richard Brooks said in the report earlier, you | :13:47. | :13:47. | |
couldn't do that. Do you think the Prime Minister is | :13:48. | :14:02. | |
going to have to release more, now? Tom Watson has said, basically, | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
every statement begets the next statement, because it follows on. | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
You said this was followed and final, but is it, he's now told us? | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
But Tom Watson had a huge list of more questions. Where does this end? | :14:19. | :14:28. | |
He started off by saying he was not benefiting in the present, then he | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
said he would not benefit in the future, it doesn't look like he has | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
any more shares in Blairmore. He sold his holding in 2010 and has | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
acknowledged he did benefit, he did make a few thousand pounds from | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
selling blame or shares in 2010, but that looks like the extent to how he | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
has benefited. -- Blairmore shares. When we look at the nation, the | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
relationship with the public and politicians, tax avoidance is quite | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
high up in the ranking of sins, between having an affair and | :15:00. | :15:09. | |
investing in a supremely tax efficient investment, I think the | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
average politician would say they would probably rather be caught | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
having an affair than investing in an offshore fund? Certainly, the | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
public dislike revelations that politicians are engaging in tax | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
avoidance, it confirms the generally poor view of politicians. But I | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
think it is not a party political issue. The Labour Party benefits | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
from donations from trade unions that engage in tax avoidance, the | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
largest single donor to the Labour Party at the time of the last | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
election was PricewaterhouseCoopers, Margaret Hodge herself, a tax | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
avoidance, said had been in involved in tax avoidance on an industrial | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
scale. This Government, to its credit, has done more to combat tax | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
avoidance than the previous government did in 13 years in | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
office. I don't think it is specifically damning to the Tories. | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
Margaret Hodge is not here to defend herself, so we will put that aside. | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
Put aside affairs Panamanian, and the man of the week | :16:11. | :16:12. | |
is Sanjeev Gupta - a potential buyer of the UK steel | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
Rather little is known about him, and he has a complex network | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
of companies registered in Singapore and one in the Isle of Man. | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
Many have struggled to see how he can really make a viable business | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
He admitted yesterday that his plans for steel in the UK were undeveloped | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
So earlier today we managed to get half an hour of his time, | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
to talk through his vision and his business. | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
A key factor in any deal will be whether a prospective | :16:38. | :16:39. | |
buyer can actually afford to run the Tata business. | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
I started by asking Sanjeev Gupta what his existing business | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
My father's business, my businesses, which I rely on are currently worth | :16:45. | :17:01. | |
about $1 billion. $1 billion, does that give you enough financial | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
muscle to take over a steel business that is losing maybe 2 million or | :17:06. | :17:17. | |
more pounds per day? We would not undertake the exercise if we could | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
not make money. We will make the analysis and a business plan, and we | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
believe it can be profitable. If it can, we will undertake it. The | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
business plan will be shared with all stakeholders, not least my own, | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
who all have to re-sign off, and it will be shared with other parties | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
like the Government and Tata. We have encountered some degree of | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
scepticism that the purchase of Tata Steel's UK operations, some | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
scepticism that it can be made to fly. I think scepticism is natural | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
when a business has been losing this much money and it has not been able | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
to make profit, despite a lot of effort. Scepticism is natural. But | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
my point is that the reason is exactly that, if it was just a | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
question of money, it would have been sold already. Tata has enough | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
money. The point is that it needs a new model, there is something wrong | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
with the model, rather than just resources. How much money do you | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
think the taxpayer needs to give you to make it work? The Government | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
cannot give money anyway, it is against EU regulation, so even if | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
they wanted to, they would not be able to give tax payer money towards | :18:27. | :18:35. | |
it. Can I ask... What we want is resolutions to the issues. We don't | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
want to take over liabilities, and we need a solution to the power | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
base. A very crucial thing you have said, that you say you don't want to | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
take on liabilities, you don't want to take on the pension liabilities | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
of the existing workers? Yes, we want a solution to that. Any | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
prospective buyer that wants to look at this will want a resolution. 52 | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
companies we have counted in the UK, in the last three or four months, | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
they have lots of names, Natural Gas Tubes Limited, they don't seem to be | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
doing anything at the moment. Why have you registered 52 UK companies | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
in the last four months? We own the something like 20 businesses in the | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
UK. There are probably 15 or 20 companies, various companies doing | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
various things. Often you have dormant companies waiting for | :19:33. | :19:34. | |
acquisitions or businesses to be started. This is nothing... I mean, | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
there is nothing wrong or unusual about holding companies. They are UK | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
companies, audited and perfectly compliant with everything. I am not | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
sure what these questions are about. There is a degree of capacity and | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
complexity that has made it quite difficult. This is a private group, | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
and it complies with every regulation. All of these companies, | :19:58. | :20:06. | |
in the UK, all registered companies, public information. A private | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
company does the structures in the best possible way to organise | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
itself, all of the information is available publicly. Can we talk | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
about what has happened in Scotland, and what the implications are? You | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
have taken over two plants. That is correct. Can you throw light on the | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
mysterious transaction? You bought it from Tata, the Scottish | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
Government owned it for half an hour, or a short period in between. | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
What was the purpose of that complicated transaction? The | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
Scottish Government, very helpfully, acted as the middleman, the broker. | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
What did they do by buying and selling it to you? We didn't | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
negotiate the deal bilaterally, it was a back-to-back deal. The | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
Scottish Government negotiated the deal with Tata and we negotiated | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
with the Scottish Government. Did they take any risks, did they take | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
the pension liabilities away from the company before selling it to | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
you? Is there something the Scottish taxpayer... There was different | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
versions negotiated. In the end, what was finalised was a clean, back | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
deal, they took no risk. There is a very bad experience in the not too | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
distant British memory of Rover, which fell out of business, put on | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
the market by BMW, who owned it, a buyer came forward, everybody wanted | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
the buyers to make it work. They took it over, they got a lot of | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
help, the Government promoted the purchase of the company for ?10, and | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
then it failed several years later. It left everybody much worse off | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
than perhaps if it had failed earlier. I just wonder, if the | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
British had been stung by that experience, and maybe whether they | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
think, or many will feel, the same is going to happen here, that you | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
will take it over, we will hope you can make it work, and somehow, at | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
the end of it all, it will fail in a few years' time, rather than now. Is | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
that prospect, do think, for steel in the south-west? Any buyer that | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
comes forward, the businessman must be examined very carefully. This | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
business has not been easy, it is not an easy environment to make | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
money in steel. The turnaround plan must be something that is different. | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
Now before we move on, let's have another look at that | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
On June the 23rd, the UK will make its most important | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
political decision for a generation - whether to leave or remain | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
But if you're struggling through the quagmire | :22:35. | :22:43. | |
of competing arguments, we'll do our best to help. | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
Over the next two months, Newsnight will be devoting a set | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
of special programmes to some of the key issues, | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
like migration, security, the economy and sovereignty. | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
But we can arm you with some of the information | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
So join us for the first of these special shows this Monday. | :23:05. | :23:17. | |
Our subject on Monday will be sovereignty. | :23:18. | :23:19. | |
Can you stop a paedophile before they've abused a child? | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
That's the aim of a unique clinical trial in Sweden, in which | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
researchers are hoping to prevent potential abusers ever carrying out | :23:29. | :23:30. | |
an offence with just a single injection. | :23:31. | :23:32. | |
Researchers at the Karolinska Institute, one of the world's | :23:33. | :23:34. | |
leading medical universities, believe that a drug called | :23:35. | :23:36. | |
Degaralix, which stops the brain from making testosterone can combat | :23:37. | :23:38. | |
hyper-sexuality and aggression, turning off the need to seek out | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
The drug has been tested on five Swedish men who called | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
a sexual offenders' helpline because they were concerned | :23:46. | :23:47. | |
about their paedophilic inclinations, and now a trial | :23:48. | :23:49. | |
using 60 volunteers, half of who will receive | :23:50. | :23:51. | |
the drug and half a placebo, is to take place. | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
The trial raises ethical questions about if therapies can be introduced | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
for the most dangerous offenders before they have broken the law. | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
To discuss the approach I am joined now by Belinda Winder, | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
a forensic psychologist, who has pioneered a trial of giving | :24:15. | :24:16. | |
libido-repressing drugs to sexual offenders in prison in Nottingham, | :24:17. | :24:18. | |
and Gabriel Shaw, Chief Executive at the National Association | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
for People Abused in Childhood, Napac. | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
Good evening. Belinda, you have been using a different chemical mix, but | :24:25. | :24:32. | |
does it work, I suppose that is the first question. The medications we | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
have been using, yes, they work to reduce sexual arousal. First, I want | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
to take issue with the first question about spotting a | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
paedophile, we need to be clear that many paedophiles do not offend | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
against children. Many people have entrenched preference for children, | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
they will know about this from puberty, but they never offend | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
against children. We then have some paedophiles who are struggling not | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
to offend against children. Some blues that struggle. Some | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
paedophiles do not really care in terms of the damage they do. -- some | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
blues the struggle. They will go on to offend. We should applaud the | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
good group of paedophiles that never offend against children. Many people | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
who offend against children are not actually paedophiles, they are | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
people that are sexually indiscriminate and will offend | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
against any available outlet, and children are easy pickings. That is | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
an interesting starting position, I just want to see if you agree with | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
that, is that how you view the spectrum of conditions? That is | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
right. Belinda laid it out very carefully. One of the concerns I had | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
about the story was that there is a thought that it might be a magical | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
silver bullet, that by giving a drug, it would be a panacea to | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
everything. Let's remember that the abuse of children is not purely or | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
solely driven by sexual desire. There is a whole range of issues. It | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
is about power, control, coercion and manipulation. It can't just be | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
seen as you have this drug and it cures everything. I want to be | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
clear, do you accept that there are, if you like, and benign paedophiles | :26:11. | :26:23. | |
that deserve sympathy rather than condemnation? There are people that | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
have urges, but it is about what they do with them, the | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
self-determination. Let's go back to the drugs. People will hear what | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
you're saying, that there is no such thing as a paedophile that deserves | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
respect, they might say, but I want to park that. The drugs work in | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
affecting the way that people who worry about the inclinations, they | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
were? They work on reducing sexual arousal, sexual preoccupation, | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
thinking about sex constantly, and having persistent urges for sexual | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
outlets. They work on reducing that aspect of sexual offending. It is a | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
big aspect of sexual offending, but not the only aspect. You probably | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
have two people here that will agree with each other. Do you think that | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
they should be promoting these drugs to people that worry about their | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
inclinations? It's about child protection, anything that helps | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
protect a child from the risk of harm has to be welcomed. Let's | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
promote it, yes. If we take it more widely, it is about resources. You | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
can understand survivor anger, if it was felt that too many resources | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
were being placed on this issue, whereas we know that there is | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
support for survivors, who have been traumatised and abused as children, | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
and it is just not there, it is patchy across the UK. There is a | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
balance to be struck with scarce resources. Where do you place the | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
most? The idea is also promoted that you might say to convicted | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
paedophiles, people that have abused children, maybe your sentence will | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
be shorter if you agree to some kind of treatment. The survivor community | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
thinks... What? Do they say that as a practical way of proceeding, or | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
no, no way do you trade off? The first thing is that survivors are | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
not a homogenous group. That is a bit dangerous. Survivors can | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
differentiate, as Belinda said, about who feel they have these urges | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
and will not offend, and those that well. For convicted paedophiles, | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
this is the other concern, the drug works because people have identified | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
and have self referred. They want to be helped. For people that do not | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
want to be helped, how are you going to apply this? It is all about | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
cooperation, taking it properly. I have concerns it may not be the | :28:50. | :28:57. | |
answer for convicted offenders. You have been trialling this in prison. | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
Tell me how you do it. Do you say, you get something in return? People | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
do not get anything in return, the only thing they get is the benefits | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
of medication. Many guys in prison do not want to reoffend, they don't | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
want to return to prison, they do not want to offend against children. | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
They are not paedophile offenders, necessarily, they are men offending | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
against children, which includes paedophiles. It might sound like | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
language, but it's important society takes on board the different parts | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
of terminology. We will leave it there, thank you. | :29:35. | :29:36. | |
There have been some unlikely leading men over the years, | :29:37. | :29:38. | |
and none more so than the star of a new musical which opens | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
The spotlight falls on the Labour leader in Corbyn the Musical, | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
a light-hearted romp which also features Dianne Abbott, | :29:46. | :29:47. | |
Declaration of interest - the show, at Waterloo East Theatre, | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
was co-written by a former Newsnight producer, but don't | :29:52. | :29:53. | |
Does political satire do a better job of connecting politics | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
with people than election campaigns and PMQs? | :29:58. | :29:58. | |
Our man in the stalls is Stephen Smith. | :29:59. | :30:11. | |
# The world in my hands # Sleep safe at night | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
# Mow with the left, we are getting it right | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
# Didn't sell out, # I didn't give in | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
# You needed a hero # You got Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn, as | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
you never thought you would see him. As the star of a musical comedy. | :30:29. | :30:37. | |
# Austerity is mean. # I did a portrayal of Peter Mandelson | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
last year. I was kind of Peter Mandelson this | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
time last year and now I am Jeremy Corbyn this year. | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
# You're with the left, we're getting it right. # | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
Isn't this liberating. I am having such a great time. It is feel good | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
romance of year, the show spares no expense to recreate a motorbike tour | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
of east Germany that Mr Corbyn supposedly took with Diane Abbott. | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
It must be terrible to be trapped behind there. Imagine never to be | :31:15. | :31:23. | |
able to visit the other side. The The story going on a trip to east | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
Germany which may or may not have happened. Have you done your | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
research like the former Newsnight journalist you are? Of course I have | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
done my research. Even better than when I was on Newsnight if that were | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
possible. We will leave that! We have found that the motorcycle trip | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
probably didn't happen. Whoa. They went on holiday together. They did. | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
They defy they went to east Germany that is for the reasons we describe. | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
We are here now, I can't wait to experience the life of a Communist | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
country. I was so excited... Showing her as not just Diane the | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
politician, Diane the human, the slightly sexual predator. It is a | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
bit fruity? It is. At times, at times. It is family fruit. If the he | :32:14. | :32:21. | |
lands up in... Are you capable of speaking English? I went to Eton. So | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
yes. Boris is in it. Boris is the opposite of or bin. It is no a nasty | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
musical. It is funny. It pokes fun at Conservatives and Labour, and you | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
know, if you can't laugh about politics, what is point of being in | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
it I am standing as I have stood before in this election on a single | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
issue. The one way system round our supermarket. One way? No way. The | :32:48. | :32:56. | |
director of this political comedy says the genre can take audiences to | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
places that the news media fails to reach. Long after it was possible to | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
do anything about it. People say to me, can't you co-something about | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
Brexit. I can't think how you could get into that as an issue. I think | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
that political stories tend to work really well when they are chamber | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
piece, so when you find the room you weren't in, the meeting that you | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
weren't at, when you get that glimpse behind the scenes into | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
moments of decision making or crunch points, in a way it is a media's | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
role I think to give its access to what politicians do, very publicly, | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
so to those moment of great event, sometimes it is theatre's role to | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
get behind the scenes and imagine ourself into those spaces so we can | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
look at humanity of making those decisions. | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
# A lawyer is never more than six feet away. # | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
# All our children engage in gender nonspecific play. Feet away. # | :33:59. | :34:00. | |
# All our children engage in gender nonspecific play. # | :34:01. | :34:02. | |
? Well it takes us into the Camelot, the Brigadoon of his north London | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
postcode. And perhaps some will see him in a new light. | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
Jez, we can-can. # It is the place for which I truly | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
care # Islington | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
# I will fight to save my people there. # | :34:24. | :34:35. | |
It doesn't seem that long ago, we were all talking | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
Seeing value in taking time over things. | :34:39. | :34:40. | |
Well, it took a bit of time, but the counter | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
A book that takes an optimistic view of our hurried lives. | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
It sees some of the downsides of rushing things - | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
in the media for example, what's been called the 24 | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
But ultimately it comes down in favour - acceleration | :34:55. | :35:04. | |
is something we have actively chosen, says the author, | :35:05. | :35:06. | |
Good evening to you. It is a grand sweeping boobs, because you explain | :35:07. | :35:16. | |
everything. In terms... Try to. Let us take an example, politics today | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
and Donald Trump, because you managed to squeeze this into the | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
kind of accelerated lives thesis, how does that fit? So Trump is in | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
some ways a product of acceleration and the dislocation to the economy, | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
the fact that people are angry and feel they are losing out is because | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
you know, the fast paced globalised economy, there are people who don't | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
do well from that. He uses Twitter, he doesn't have campaigners, he | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
reaches people directly with this technology, but it is more than | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
that, Trump is perfect instant politician, silver in the US did a | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
fascinating thing, he found that Trump as we would expect dominated | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
the news cycle day after day but he never dominated it with the same | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
story. When he was insulting the Pope, by the next day the caravan | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
had moved on to something else. He could chuck these grenades and move | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
on to the next one. So you are kind of quite sympathetic to the great | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
acceleration, but I am guessing you are not like a big Donald Trump fan? | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
You have kind of talked against your own thesis here, this is what you | :36:25. | :36:32. | |
get. Yes, so I think, I mean, as you said my thesis is there are bad | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
things and good thing, but one of the things with the media it does, | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
it is not so much everything gets faster, what it does it poll rice, | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
you have the sort of fast paced breaking news stuff but you have | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
more people than ever doing good considered, long reads or writing | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
analysis pieces or like, I mentioned naught silver, doing data driven | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
study, there is more good stuff out there as well as the... That is | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
because books have shrunk down into long reads. Let us take another | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
example. This is an interesting one. This, and you do devote a section o | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
which is dating and relationships. I think people would worry that | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
swiping right on tinder, or constantly going online to sort of | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
or speed-dating as the kind of, the sort of end point, I mean, you, can | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
you see any advantage in dating in numbers in that way? Absolutely, | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
dating is horrible. In many way, if you are out there on a the market | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
you are trying to find the right person, it takes ages and you have | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
all the meetings with people and you don't quite click, just increasing | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
the number of people you meet is sort of pretty good. Being able to | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
have that thing with speed-dating, so knowing, OK this person and I | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
click and you know, the two of us should never have met in first | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
place, rather than having to... Even online dating isn't that efficient. | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
People, you spend a lot of time honing your profile and scrolling | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
and looking for, and looking for Mr Right and rejecting this one. Who | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
wants online dating when you have tinder? That is instant. It leads to | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
a hook up culture, people are more likely to go out and have a good | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
time, but it is hard to begrudge then that, I don't think there is | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
much evidence people don't want to get married and settle down. You | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
talk about The Great Acceleration. Are you talking about your life, | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
because it is Metropolitan, I can think of lots of people, elderly | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
people at home who have quite pleasantly paced lives, they are not | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
rushing round I have been accused of being London-centric, the larger the | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
community we are in the faster the pace of our live, it isn't, I hope | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
it is not just me. Erne I meet says gosh, yes, I feel my life is getting | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
out of control. It is speeding up. Apart from the people who go off and | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
live in the countryside and good luck to them. Thank you. | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
That is all we have time for. I will be back with more tomorrow, just to | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
say The Papers are all going very big on Cameron, the Telegraph, I did | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
have money offshore, the Mail, PM. I did profit from tax haven. He | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
finally admits to link to father's fund. And the Guardian using one of | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
its yellow backed headline. I will be back in this seat | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
tomorrow, until then very good night. | :39:44. | :39:56. | |
Hello. Another day of sunshine and shower, the showers have been fading | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
through the evening and that will continue through the night. The | :40:02. | :40:03. | |
winds fall light. It is going | :40:04. | :40:05. |