07/04/2016 Newsnight


07/04/2016

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It took a few days, but he finally got there.

:00:00.:00:07.

The PM says yes, he did have a stake in his Dad's offshore fund.

:00:08.:00:10.

We'll ask Labour's deputy leader why he thinks it might be

:00:11.:00:18.

We had a joint account. We owned 5,000 ewe anies in Blairmore

:00:19.:00:26.

investment trust which we sold in January 2010.

:00:27.:00:28.

We'll ask Labour's deputy leader why he thinks it might be

:00:29.:00:32.

The Government promises the unions that Tata Steel

:00:33.:00:38.

We'll ask the front runner to buy it, Sanjeev Gupta,

:00:39.:00:42.

Does satire tell us more about politics than politicians do?

:00:43.:01:06.

He's not quite in Prime Minister of Iceland territory,

:01:07.:01:10.

but David Cameron is paddling in a pool of poo this evening,

:01:11.:01:13.

admitting he had benefited from offshore investments

:01:14.:01:15.

of the kind everybody in public life is now embarrassed

:01:16.:01:17.

He had a personal stake in his father's Blairmore fund,

:01:18.:01:25.

the offshore nature of which was exposed

:01:26.:01:29.

But, you might argue, he thinks it's enough a problem

:01:30.:01:36.

that he didn't want to tell us about it.

:01:37.:01:38.

After all, we've had a series of statements this week

:01:39.:01:42.

about his financial affairs that now look crafted to avoid lying,

:01:43.:01:44.

but avoid telling us the whole situation.

:01:45.:01:47.

The holding statements didn't hold, and he came on ITV to tell all.

:01:48.:01:50.

Units in Blairmore investment trust which we sold in January 2010.

:01:51.:01:59.

After days of evading and avoiding questions about his finance, the

:02:00.:02:04.

Prime Minister's finally come clear about Blairmore holdings, the

:02:05.:02:08.

company set up by his father. Samantha and I had a joint account.

:02:09.:02:14.

We owned 5,000 units in Blairmore investment trust, which we sold in

:02:15.:02:20.

January 2010. That was worth something like ?30,000. Was there a

:02:21.:02:25.

profit on it? I paid income tax on the dividend but there was a profit

:02:26.:02:31.

on it but it was less than the capital gains tax allowance, but it

:02:32.:02:34.

was shouldn't to all the UK taxes in the normal ways. A former tax

:02:35.:02:38.

inspector explained to us why the funds are based in places like

:02:39.:02:45.

Panama. The idea you would get some quiet serious tax advantage, people

:02:46.:02:49.

could invest in a fund in somewhere like Panama, and when that fund

:02:50.:02:53.

earned income, they wouldn't be taxed on it. So income would roll

:02:54.:02:58.

up, offshore for as long as they wanted and they would only be

:02:59.:03:01.

taxable when they took the money out, either as dividends or by

:03:02.:03:06.

selling their shares, in which case there would be capital gapes tax. A

:03:07.:03:10.

major problem for the Prime Minister is how the information emerged.

:03:11.:03:14.

On Monday the Prime Minister's spokesperson said where his money

:03:15.:03:20.

was invested was a private matter. On Tuesday, this was Mr Cameron's

:03:21.:03:24.

reply to a Sky News question on whether he had previously invested

:03:25.:03:30.

in Blairmore. I own no share, I have a salary as Prime Minister, and I

:03:31.:03:35.

have some savings, which I get some interest from and I have a house,

:03:36.:03:39.

which we used to Li in, which we let out while we are living in Downing

:03:40.:03:43.

Street. That is all I have. I have no share, no offshore trust, no

:03:44.:03:48.

funds, nothing like that. A statement issued later on Tuesday

:03:49.:03:51.

said that the Prime Minister, his wife and her children do not benefit

:03:52.:03:57.

from any offshore funds. Yesterday, Downing Street clarified further,

:03:58.:04:00.

there are no offshore funds or trusts with which the Prime

:04:01.:04:03.

Minister, Mrs Cameron or their children will benefit from in

:04:04.:04:08.

future. And that leads us to today. This is obviously not good for the

:04:09.:04:15.

Prime Minister. First of all, he eshoed several opportunities to come

:04:16.:04:18.

clean about this and he chose not to take them. O so today he looks

:04:19.:04:24.

slippery. Secondly and this is less important because we know this

:04:25.:04:29.

already, it shows how privilege his back ground was, it brings up the

:04:30.:04:35.

job his if o father hand and the name of the fund itself is a

:04:36.:04:38.

testament to the grandness of the Cameron family.

:04:39.:04:44.

Blairmore is nameled after the Cameron's home, here in

:04:45.:04:48.

Aberdeenshire. And now, a Christian retreat.

:04:49.:04:52.

Today, above all, Mr Cameron was keen to defend his late father's

:04:53.:04:56.

reputation. I think a lot of the criticisms are based on a

:04:57.:05:02.

fundamental misconreception -- misconception which is Blairmore was

:05:03.:05:05.

set up with the idea of avoiding tax. It wasn't, it was set up after

:05:06.:05:10.

exchange controls went so that people who wanted to invest in

:05:11.:05:14.

dollar denominated shares in companies could do so.

:05:15.:05:18.

I am not clear why he said that this fund was set up so that investors

:05:19.:05:23.

could put money into non-sterling assets. I am not clear why they

:05:24.:05:27.

needed to go to Panama to do that, they could have done that in London.

:05:28.:05:33.

One thing in particular, raises some suspicion, and that is why Blairmore

:05:34.:05:39.

is constituted as a company with bearer share, because those shares

:05:40.:05:43.

don't require the owners to identify themselves, so it becomes more

:05:44.:05:46.

difficult for tax authorities to trace who has taken the income from

:05:47.:05:52.

those companies. The Inland Revenue was once relaxed about funds like

:05:53.:05:58.

that. Ministers wanted PMQs like Mr Cameron's father do what he did. But

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one person's investing is another 's tax avoidance.

:06:06.:06:06.

Joining us now from his West Bromich constituency is Labour's

:06:07.:06:10.

Ho outraged you tonight? Well, I am confused really, we have had a

:06:11.:06:21.

series of answers from the PM, that are, just seem the lead to more

:06:22.:06:25.

questions. What I think people will expect him to do tonight, is be very

:06:26.:06:31.

clear about what other investments and vehicles he has had as an MP.

:06:32.:06:37.

There was a relative confidence his financial affairs were in good order

:06:38.:06:41.

until he had that dragged out of him earlier this evening. Now people

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need to know what other shares did he have many Blairmore? Did he

:06:47.:06:51.

dispose of any other shareholdings, has he used any other vehicles as a

:06:52.:06:57.

way of generating income, and offshore accounts we don't know

:06:58.:07:01.

about yet? Can I be clear, are you accusing, you think he was doing

:07:02.:07:07.

this to avoid tax? Or do you think he in any way evaded tax, or... What

:07:08.:07:13.

exactly is the offence that he has committed here? Well, I don't know

:07:14.:07:18.

the Prime Minister's full circumstances, none of us do yet. We

:07:19.:07:22.

have been getting these incremental admittances that he had an

:07:23.:07:27.

investment in an offshore vehicle, that most people think is used to

:07:28.:07:31.

avoid paying tax. Now, that is fine, if you are a normal investor, it

:07:32.:07:37.

might, we might not agree wit it is fine, when you are the Prime

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Minister, the most powerful man in the land, responsible for framing

:07:42.:07:45.

tax reform, and clamping down on tax avoidance, and you have made

:07:46.:07:50.

speeches, that you are in favour of transparency, heralding a new age

:07:51.:07:55.

and sunlight being the best disinfectant and naming high profile

:07:56.:07:59.

individuals who use things like this and describing them as morally

:08:00.:08:04.

wrong, to admit you have had similar style investment lends you to the

:08:05.:08:10.

acquisition of being a hypocrite. He wasn't Prime Minister, he sold them

:08:11.:08:13.

before he became Prime Minister, didn't he. Is it impossible as a

:08:14.:08:17.

human being to say I have done this, I am a poacher turned gamekeeper, it

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is better if people like me don't do things like this, I become Prime

:08:23.:08:25.

Minister and try and stop it, what is wrong with that in Well, he was

:08:26.:08:30.

leader of the op six and the point is, he has made judgments on people

:08:31.:08:35.

as Prime Minister, for doing what he used to do, and I don't think it is

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a good look for a Prime Minister to use the line say as I do, do as I

:08:40.:08:48.

say, not as I do. And it, the avoidance of legitimate journalistic

:08:49.:08:50.

questions in the last three day, just means there are going to be

:08:51.:08:56.

more questions about what his financial arrangements both as

:08:57.:08:59.

Leader of the Opposition and as an MP. I don't think it is unreasonable

:09:00.:09:04.

for people to ask nose questions. You suggested there may be an issue,

:09:05.:09:09.

I am not wanting to overstate what you said, you said there may be an

:09:10.:09:13.

issue of resignation here. Seriously? He has invested in a tax

:09:14.:09:20.

efficient offshore fund, is that seriously something a Prime Minister

:09:21.:09:25.

thinks about resignation over? I have not suggested that and I don't

:09:26.:09:29.

know the facts of the Prime Minister's financial arrangements to

:09:30.:09:32.

be able to draw that. I was asked in another interview if it was a

:09:33.:09:37.

resignation issue, I said maybe but we don't have the facts. What I

:09:38.:09:45.

think we need to do, is you know, what other questions does that

:09:46.:09:49.

rather Eva sieve three days of answers give us? I think we

:09:50.:09:56.

certainly need to know what other investments David Cameron had when

:09:57.:09:59.

he was Leader of the Opposition. Aren't you coming to the conclusion

:10:00.:10:04.

that anyone in very senior office, like the candidates for Mayor of

:10:05.:10:08.

London, basically have to open up their tax returns and tell us Egg.

:10:09.:10:11.

You are really saying you are not accepting anything he says on trust,

:10:12.:10:18.

he just has to keep telling us until we have every last penny in his bank

:10:19.:10:22.

account I need to be careful about this. He said tonight he thinks he

:10:23.:10:25.

is going to get to a position where he could publish his tax return, but

:10:26.:10:30.

that won't show what investment vehicles he had. And the issue, the

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issue, the difficulty for the Prime Minister is, this is a particular

:10:35.:10:37.

vehicle that most people think is used to avoid paying tax, and I

:10:38.:10:40.

don't think people want their Prime Minister to be in that situation,

:10:41.:10:42.

and I don't think they want any politicians to be, so we are

:10:43.:10:48.

certainly moving to a point where there will have to be more

:10:49.:10:51.

transparency for powerful people, particularly ministers who are

:10:52.:10:54.

responsible for tax legislation. ? One last question, do you accept his

:10:55.:10:59.

word, when he says, he paid all the tax, the capital gains tax he didn't

:11:00.:11:03.

need to pay, because he didn't apply, and the income tax, he paid

:11:04.:11:09.

all the UK tax, that were due, on a legitimate and legal overseas

:11:10.:11:12.

investment? Well, I certainly hope he wasn't lying to the British

:11:13.:11:17.

people. He certainly wasn't answering all the questions the

:11:18.:11:19.

journalists were asking on their behalf. The point is it has taken

:11:20.:11:24.

three days to get to this point. Had he given a straight answer he would

:11:25.:11:28.

be be in a much better position this evening. As it happens he has

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aroused curiosity and it makes you think, if he had to admit tonight,

:11:34.:11:39.

what other shareholdings may he have, he will need the clean that up

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tomorrow. we start on the cover up not the

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crime. Isn't that the problem for David Cameron, he has obfuscated

:11:59.:12:02.

over this and then had to admit it. In so far as there is political

:12:03.:12:07.

damage it is because he didn't make a full disclosure, about exactly how

:12:08.:12:13.

he benefitted from his father's investments, and offshore fund, on

:12:14.:12:17.

day one, so he has created the impression that he has something to

:12:18.:12:22.

hide, but now he has come out, and made what looks very much like a

:12:23.:12:27.

full disclosure and is about to publish his tax return, it turns out

:12:28.:12:30.

he had nothing to hide in the first place. I can see why Labour are

:12:31.:12:33.

trying to do their best to make as much capital out of this as they can

:12:34.:12:38.

and make it look like he has been engaged in an attempt to cover

:12:39.:12:42.

something up. Now that we have the full tacts were us, which it looks

:12:43.:12:47.

like we do, it looks like we do, it doesn't seem as if he was covering

:12:48.:12:51.

something up. I used the word crime. You don't think there is any crime

:12:52.:12:55.

here, you don't think there is any problem here of being Leader of the

:12:56.:12:58.

Opposition, he was not Prime Minister, he did it before the

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election made him Prime Minister, there is no problem Leader of the

:13:03.:13:07.

Opposition, investments, in an offshore fund, that had bearer

:13:08.:13:11.

shares which everything knows are the not the best, in an up right way

:13:12.:13:18.

of issues documentary support for your holdings, a smell of any kind?

:13:19.:13:24.

I am not a tax lawyer, so I don't know why Ian Cameron set up the fund

:13:25.:13:30.

in Panama, but... It was very tax efficient. The Prime Minister said

:13:31.:13:34.

it wasn't a tax avoidance vehicle, it was set up for the purposes of

:13:35.:13:41.

dealing in, non-sterling shares and so forth, and when it was set up in

:13:42.:13:46.

1982, unlike what Richard Brooks said in the report earlier, you

:13:47.:13:47.

couldn't do that. Do you think the Prime Minister is

:13:48.:14:02.

going to have to release more, now? Tom Watson has said, basically,

:14:03.:14:06.

every statement begets the next statement, because it follows on.

:14:07.:14:13.

You said this was followed and final, but is it, he's now told us?

:14:14.:14:18.

But Tom Watson had a huge list of more questions. Where does this end?

:14:19.:14:28.

He started off by saying he was not benefiting in the present, then he

:14:29.:14:31.

said he would not benefit in the future, it doesn't look like he has

:14:32.:14:34.

any more shares in Blairmore. He sold his holding in 2010 and has

:14:35.:14:38.

acknowledged he did benefit, he did make a few thousand pounds from

:14:39.:14:42.

selling blame or shares in 2010, but that looks like the extent to how he

:14:43.:14:50.

has benefited. -- Blairmore shares. When we look at the nation, the

:14:51.:14:55.

relationship with the public and politicians, tax avoidance is quite

:14:56.:14:59.

high up in the ranking of sins, between having an affair and

:15:00.:15:09.

investing in a supremely tax efficient investment, I think the

:15:10.:15:13.

average politician would say they would probably rather be caught

:15:14.:15:17.

having an affair than investing in an offshore fund? Certainly, the

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public dislike revelations that politicians are engaging in tax

:15:23.:15:27.

avoidance, it confirms the generally poor view of politicians. But I

:15:28.:15:30.

think it is not a party political issue. The Labour Party benefits

:15:31.:15:36.

from donations from trade unions that engage in tax avoidance, the

:15:37.:15:40.

largest single donor to the Labour Party at the time of the last

:15:41.:15:43.

election was PricewaterhouseCoopers, Margaret Hodge herself, a tax

:15:44.:15:51.

avoidance, said had been in involved in tax avoidance on an industrial

:15:52.:15:55.

scale. This Government, to its credit, has done more to combat tax

:15:56.:15:58.

avoidance than the previous government did in 13 years in

:15:59.:16:02.

office. I don't think it is specifically damning to the Tories.

:16:03.:16:06.

Margaret Hodge is not here to defend herself, so we will put that aside.

:16:07.:16:10.

Put aside affairs Panamanian, and the man of the week

:16:11.:16:12.

is Sanjeev Gupta - a potential buyer of the UK steel

:16:13.:16:15.

Rather little is known about him, and he has a complex network

:16:16.:16:19.

of companies registered in Singapore and one in the Isle of Man.

:16:20.:16:22.

Many have struggled to see how he can really make a viable business

:16:23.:16:25.

He admitted yesterday that his plans for steel in the UK were undeveloped

:16:26.:16:30.

So earlier today we managed to get half an hour of his time,

:16:31.:16:34.

to talk through his vision and his business.

:16:35.:16:37.

A key factor in any deal will be whether a prospective

:16:38.:16:39.

buyer can actually afford to run the Tata business.

:16:40.:16:42.

I started by asking Sanjeev Gupta what his existing business

:16:43.:16:44.

My father's business, my businesses, which I rely on are currently worth

:16:45.:17:01.

about $1 billion. $1 billion, does that give you enough financial

:17:02.:17:05.

muscle to take over a steel business that is losing maybe 2 million or

:17:06.:17:17.

more pounds per day? We would not undertake the exercise if we could

:17:18.:17:22.

not make money. We will make the analysis and a business plan, and we

:17:23.:17:26.

believe it can be profitable. If it can, we will undertake it. The

:17:27.:17:30.

business plan will be shared with all stakeholders, not least my own,

:17:31.:17:35.

who all have to re-sign off, and it will be shared with other parties

:17:36.:17:41.

like the Government and Tata. We have encountered some degree of

:17:42.:17:46.

scepticism that the purchase of Tata Steel's UK operations, some

:17:47.:17:50.

scepticism that it can be made to fly. I think scepticism is natural

:17:51.:17:53.

when a business has been losing this much money and it has not been able

:17:54.:17:57.

to make profit, despite a lot of effort. Scepticism is natural. But

:17:58.:18:02.

my point is that the reason is exactly that, if it was just a

:18:03.:18:05.

question of money, it would have been sold already. Tata has enough

:18:06.:18:11.

money. The point is that it needs a new model, there is something wrong

:18:12.:18:14.

with the model, rather than just resources. How much money do you

:18:15.:18:18.

think the taxpayer needs to give you to make it work? The Government

:18:19.:18:23.

cannot give money anyway, it is against EU regulation, so even if

:18:24.:18:26.

they wanted to, they would not be able to give tax payer money towards

:18:27.:18:35.

it. Can I ask... What we want is resolutions to the issues. We don't

:18:36.:18:39.

want to take over liabilities, and we need a solution to the power

:18:40.:18:44.

base. A very crucial thing you have said, that you say you don't want to

:18:45.:18:47.

take on liabilities, you don't want to take on the pension liabilities

:18:48.:18:53.

of the existing workers? Yes, we want a solution to that. Any

:18:54.:18:59.

prospective buyer that wants to look at this will want a resolution. 52

:19:00.:19:04.

companies we have counted in the UK, in the last three or four months,

:19:05.:19:09.

they have lots of names, Natural Gas Tubes Limited, they don't seem to be

:19:10.:19:16.

doing anything at the moment. Why have you registered 52 UK companies

:19:17.:19:21.

in the last four months? We own the something like 20 businesses in the

:19:22.:19:28.

UK. There are probably 15 or 20 companies, various companies doing

:19:29.:19:32.

various things. Often you have dormant companies waiting for

:19:33.:19:34.

acquisitions or businesses to be started. This is nothing... I mean,

:19:35.:19:39.

there is nothing wrong or unusual about holding companies. They are UK

:19:40.:19:45.

companies, audited and perfectly compliant with everything. I am not

:19:46.:19:48.

sure what these questions are about. There is a degree of capacity and

:19:49.:19:52.

complexity that has made it quite difficult. This is a private group,

:19:53.:19:57.

and it complies with every regulation. All of these companies,

:19:58.:20:06.

in the UK, all registered companies, public information. A private

:20:07.:20:09.

company does the structures in the best possible way to organise

:20:10.:20:13.

itself, all of the information is available publicly. Can we talk

:20:14.:20:16.

about what has happened in Scotland, and what the implications are? You

:20:17.:20:22.

have taken over two plants. That is correct. Can you throw light on the

:20:23.:20:27.

mysterious transaction? You bought it from Tata, the Scottish

:20:28.:20:31.

Government owned it for half an hour, or a short period in between.

:20:32.:20:38.

What was the purpose of that complicated transaction? The

:20:39.:20:42.

Scottish Government, very helpfully, acted as the middleman, the broker.

:20:43.:20:47.

What did they do by buying and selling it to you? We didn't

:20:48.:20:52.

negotiate the deal bilaterally, it was a back-to-back deal. The

:20:53.:20:55.

Scottish Government negotiated the deal with Tata and we negotiated

:20:56.:20:58.

with the Scottish Government. Did they take any risks, did they take

:20:59.:21:02.

the pension liabilities away from the company before selling it to

:21:03.:21:06.

you? Is there something the Scottish taxpayer... There was different

:21:07.:21:11.

versions negotiated. In the end, what was finalised was a clean, back

:21:12.:21:16.

deal, they took no risk. There is a very bad experience in the not too

:21:17.:21:21.

distant British memory of Rover, which fell out of business, put on

:21:22.:21:26.

the market by BMW, who owned it, a buyer came forward, everybody wanted

:21:27.:21:31.

the buyers to make it work. They took it over, they got a lot of

:21:32.:21:34.

help, the Government promoted the purchase of the company for ?10, and

:21:35.:21:39.

then it failed several years later. It left everybody much worse off

:21:40.:21:42.

than perhaps if it had failed earlier. I just wonder, if the

:21:43.:21:47.

British had been stung by that experience, and maybe whether they

:21:48.:21:51.

think, or many will feel, the same is going to happen here, that you

:21:52.:21:55.

will take it over, we will hope you can make it work, and somehow, at

:21:56.:21:59.

the end of it all, it will fail in a few years' time, rather than now. Is

:22:00.:22:07.

that prospect, do think, for steel in the south-west? Any buyer that

:22:08.:22:12.

comes forward, the businessman must be examined very carefully. This

:22:13.:22:15.

business has not been easy, it is not an easy environment to make

:22:16.:22:19.

money in steel. The turnaround plan must be something that is different.

:22:20.:22:23.

Now before we move on, let's have another look at that

:22:24.:22:26.

On June the 23rd, the UK will make its most important

:22:27.:22:31.

political decision for a generation - whether to leave or remain

:22:32.:22:34.

But if you're struggling through the quagmire

:22:35.:22:43.

of competing arguments, we'll do our best to help.

:22:44.:22:46.

Over the next two months, Newsnight will be devoting a set

:22:47.:22:49.

of special programmes to some of the key issues,

:22:50.:22:53.

like migration, security, the economy and sovereignty.

:22:54.:22:58.

But we can arm you with some of the information

:22:59.:23:04.

So join us for the first of these special shows this Monday.

:23:05.:23:17.

Our subject on Monday will be sovereignty.

:23:18.:23:19.

Can you stop a paedophile before they've abused a child?

:23:20.:23:24.

That's the aim of a unique clinical trial in Sweden, in which

:23:25.:23:28.

researchers are hoping to prevent potential abusers ever carrying out

:23:29.:23:30.

an offence with just a single injection.

:23:31.:23:32.

Researchers at the Karolinska Institute, one of the world's

:23:33.:23:34.

leading medical universities, believe that a drug called

:23:35.:23:36.

Degaralix, which stops the brain from making testosterone can combat

:23:37.:23:38.

hyper-sexuality and aggression, turning off the need to seek out

:23:39.:23:41.

The drug has been tested on five Swedish men who called

:23:42.:23:45.

a sexual offenders' helpline because they were concerned

:23:46.:23:47.

about their paedophilic inclinations, and now a trial

:23:48.:23:49.

using 60 volunteers, half of who will receive

:23:50.:23:51.

the drug and half a placebo, is to take place.

:23:52.:23:59.

The trial raises ethical questions about if therapies can be introduced

:24:00.:24:07.

for the most dangerous offenders before they have broken the law.

:24:08.:24:11.

To discuss the approach I am joined now by Belinda Winder,

:24:12.:24:14.

a forensic psychologist, who has pioneered a trial of giving

:24:15.:24:16.

libido-repressing drugs to sexual offenders in prison in Nottingham,

:24:17.:24:18.

and Gabriel Shaw, Chief Executive at the National Association

:24:19.:24:20.

for People Abused in Childhood, Napac.

:24:21.:24:24.

Good evening. Belinda, you have been using a different chemical mix, but

:24:25.:24:32.

does it work, I suppose that is the first question. The medications we

:24:33.:24:38.

have been using, yes, they work to reduce sexual arousal. First, I want

:24:39.:24:42.

to take issue with the first question about spotting a

:24:43.:24:45.

paedophile, we need to be clear that many paedophiles do not offend

:24:46.:24:49.

against children. Many people have entrenched preference for children,

:24:50.:24:53.

they will know about this from puberty, but they never offend

:24:54.:24:56.

against children. We then have some paedophiles who are struggling not

:24:57.:25:00.

to offend against children. Some blues that struggle. Some

:25:01.:25:05.

paedophiles do not really care in terms of the damage they do. -- some

:25:06.:25:08.

blues the struggle. They will go on to offend. We should applaud the

:25:09.:25:13.

good group of paedophiles that never offend against children. Many people

:25:14.:25:20.

who offend against children are not actually paedophiles, they are

:25:21.:25:25.

people that are sexually indiscriminate and will offend

:25:26.:25:28.

against any available outlet, and children are easy pickings. That is

:25:29.:25:32.

an interesting starting position, I just want to see if you agree with

:25:33.:25:36.

that, is that how you view the spectrum of conditions? That is

:25:37.:25:39.

right. Belinda laid it out very carefully. One of the concerns I had

:25:40.:25:43.

about the story was that there is a thought that it might be a magical

:25:44.:25:47.

silver bullet, that by giving a drug, it would be a panacea to

:25:48.:25:51.

everything. Let's remember that the abuse of children is not purely or

:25:52.:25:54.

solely driven by sexual desire. There is a whole range of issues. It

:25:55.:26:00.

is about power, control, coercion and manipulation. It can't just be

:26:01.:26:06.

seen as you have this drug and it cures everything. I want to be

:26:07.:26:10.

clear, do you accept that there are, if you like, and benign paedophiles

:26:11.:26:23.

that deserve sympathy rather than condemnation? There are people that

:26:24.:26:26.

have urges, but it is about what they do with them, the

:26:27.:26:31.

self-determination. Let's go back to the drugs. People will hear what

:26:32.:26:38.

you're saying, that there is no such thing as a paedophile that deserves

:26:39.:26:42.

respect, they might say, but I want to park that. The drugs work in

:26:43.:26:49.

affecting the way that people who worry about the inclinations, they

:26:50.:26:55.

were? They work on reducing sexual arousal, sexual preoccupation,

:26:56.:26:59.

thinking about sex constantly, and having persistent urges for sexual

:27:00.:27:03.

outlets. They work on reducing that aspect of sexual offending. It is a

:27:04.:27:09.

big aspect of sexual offending, but not the only aspect. You probably

:27:10.:27:12.

have two people here that will agree with each other. Do you think that

:27:13.:27:16.

they should be promoting these drugs to people that worry about their

:27:17.:27:19.

inclinations? It's about child protection, anything that helps

:27:20.:27:24.

protect a child from the risk of harm has to be welcomed. Let's

:27:25.:27:30.

promote it, yes. If we take it more widely, it is about resources. You

:27:31.:27:33.

can understand survivor anger, if it was felt that too many resources

:27:34.:27:39.

were being placed on this issue, whereas we know that there is

:27:40.:27:44.

support for survivors, who have been traumatised and abused as children,

:27:45.:27:47.

and it is just not there, it is patchy across the UK. There is a

:27:48.:27:51.

balance to be struck with scarce resources. Where do you place the

:27:52.:27:57.

most? The idea is also promoted that you might say to convicted

:27:58.:28:01.

paedophiles, people that have abused children, maybe your sentence will

:28:02.:28:04.

be shorter if you agree to some kind of treatment. The survivor community

:28:05.:28:10.

thinks... What? Do they say that as a practical way of proceeding, or

:28:11.:28:16.

no, no way do you trade off? The first thing is that survivors are

:28:17.:28:23.

not a homogenous group. That is a bit dangerous. Survivors can

:28:24.:28:27.

differentiate, as Belinda said, about who feel they have these urges

:28:28.:28:32.

and will not offend, and those that well. For convicted paedophiles,

:28:33.:28:36.

this is the other concern, the drug works because people have identified

:28:37.:28:39.

and have self referred. They want to be helped. For people that do not

:28:40.:28:45.

want to be helped, how are you going to apply this? It is all about

:28:46.:28:49.

cooperation, taking it properly. I have concerns it may not be the

:28:50.:28:57.

answer for convicted offenders. You have been trialling this in prison.

:28:58.:29:03.

Tell me how you do it. Do you say, you get something in return? People

:29:04.:29:06.

do not get anything in return, the only thing they get is the benefits

:29:07.:29:12.

of medication. Many guys in prison do not want to reoffend, they don't

:29:13.:29:15.

want to return to prison, they do not want to offend against children.

:29:16.:29:20.

They are not paedophile offenders, necessarily, they are men offending

:29:21.:29:26.

against children, which includes paedophiles. It might sound like

:29:27.:29:30.

language, but it's important society takes on board the different parts

:29:31.:29:34.

of terminology. We will leave it there, thank you.

:29:35.:29:36.

There have been some unlikely leading men over the years,

:29:37.:29:38.

and none more so than the star of a new musical which opens

:29:39.:29:41.

The spotlight falls on the Labour leader in Corbyn the Musical,

:29:42.:29:45.

a light-hearted romp which also features Dianne Abbott,

:29:46.:29:47.

Declaration of interest - the show, at Waterloo East Theatre,

:29:48.:29:51.

was co-written by a former Newsnight producer, but don't

:29:52.:29:53.

Does political satire do a better job of connecting politics

:29:54.:29:57.

with people than election campaigns and PMQs?

:29:58.:29:58.

Our man in the stalls is Stephen Smith.

:29:59.:30:11.

# The world in my hands # Sleep safe at night

:30:12.:30:17.

# Mow with the left, we are getting it right

:30:18.:30:20.

# Didn't sell out, # I didn't give in

:30:21.:30:24.

# You needed a hero # You got Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn, as

:30:25.:30:28.

you never thought you would see him. As the star of a musical comedy.

:30:29.:30:37.

# Austerity is mean. # I did a portrayal of Peter Mandelson

:30:38.:30:43.

last year. I was kind of Peter Mandelson this

:30:44.:30:48.

time last year and now I am Jeremy Corbyn this year.

:30:49.:30:55.

# You're with the left, we're getting it right. #

:30:56.:30:59.

Isn't this liberating. I am having such a great time. It is feel good

:31:00.:31:05.

romance of year, the show spares no expense to recreate a motorbike tour

:31:06.:31:10.

of east Germany that Mr Corbyn supposedly took with Diane Abbott.

:31:11.:31:14.

It must be terrible to be trapped behind there. Imagine never to be

:31:15.:31:23.

able to visit the other side. The The story going on a trip to east

:31:24.:31:27.

Germany which may or may not have happened. Have you done your

:31:28.:31:31.

research like the former Newsnight journalist you are? Of course I have

:31:32.:31:35.

done my research. Even better than when I was on Newsnight if that were

:31:36.:31:40.

possible. We will leave that! We have found that the motorcycle trip

:31:41.:31:46.

probably didn't happen. Whoa. They went on holiday together. They did.

:31:47.:31:50.

They defy they went to east Germany that is for the reasons we describe.

:31:51.:31:55.

We are here now, I can't wait to experience the life of a Communist

:31:56.:32:01.

country. I was so excited... Showing her as not just Diane the

:32:02.:32:06.

politician, Diane the human, the slightly sexual predator. It is a

:32:07.:32:13.

bit fruity? It is. At times, at times. It is family fruit. If the he

:32:14.:32:21.

lands up in... Are you capable of speaking English? I went to Eton. So

:32:22.:32:28.

yes. Boris is in it. Boris is the opposite of or bin. It is no a nasty

:32:29.:32:34.

musical. It is funny. It pokes fun at Conservatives and Labour, and you

:32:35.:32:38.

know, if you can't laugh about politics, what is point of being in

:32:39.:32:42.

it I am standing as I have stood before in this election on a single

:32:43.:32:47.

issue. The one way system round our supermarket. One way? No way. The

:32:48.:32:56.

director of this political comedy says the genre can take audiences to

:32:57.:33:01.

places that the news media fails to reach. Long after it was possible to

:33:02.:33:06.

do anything about it. People say to me, can't you co-something about

:33:07.:33:10.

Brexit. I can't think how you could get into that as an issue. I think

:33:11.:33:15.

that political stories tend to work really well when they are chamber

:33:16.:33:19.

piece, so when you find the room you weren't in, the meeting that you

:33:20.:33:23.

weren't at, when you get that glimpse behind the scenes into

:33:24.:33:28.

moments of decision making or crunch points, in a way it is a media's

:33:29.:33:33.

role I think to give its access to what politicians do, very publicly,

:33:34.:33:37.

so to those moment of great event, sometimes it is theatre's role to

:33:38.:33:41.

get behind the scenes and imagine ourself into those spaces so we can

:33:42.:33:45.

look at humanity of making those decisions.

:33:46.:33:51.

# A lawyer is never more than six feet away. #

:33:52.:33:58.

# All our children engage in gender nonspecific play. Feet away. #

:33:59.:34:00.

# All our children engage in gender nonspecific play. #

:34:01.:34:02.

? Well it takes us into the Camelot, the Brigadoon of his north London

:34:03.:34:06.

postcode. And perhaps some will see him in a new light.

:34:07.:34:12.

Jez, we can-can. # It is the place for which I truly

:34:13.:34:18.

care # Islington

:34:19.:34:23.

# I will fight to save my people there. #

:34:24.:34:35.

It doesn't seem that long ago, we were all talking

:34:36.:34:38.

Seeing value in taking time over things.

:34:39.:34:40.

Well, it took a bit of time, but the counter

:34:41.:34:43.

A book that takes an optimistic view of our hurried lives.

:34:44.:34:47.

It sees some of the downsides of rushing things -

:34:48.:34:52.

in the media for example, what's been called the 24

:34:53.:34:54.

But ultimately it comes down in favour - acceleration

:34:55.:35:04.

is something we have actively chosen, says the author,

:35:05.:35:06.

Good evening to you. It is a grand sweeping boobs, because you explain

:35:07.:35:16.

everything. In terms... Try to. Let us take an example, politics today

:35:17.:35:19.

and Donald Trump, because you managed to squeeze this into the

:35:20.:35:25.

kind of accelerated lives thesis, how does that fit? So Trump is in

:35:26.:35:31.

some ways a product of acceleration and the dislocation to the economy,

:35:32.:35:34.

the fact that people are angry and feel they are losing out is because

:35:35.:35:39.

you know, the fast paced globalised economy, there are people who don't

:35:40.:35:44.

do well from that. He uses Twitter, he doesn't have campaigners, he

:35:45.:35:47.

reaches people directly with this technology, but it is more than

:35:48.:35:53.

that, Trump is perfect instant politician, silver in the US did a

:35:54.:35:57.

fascinating thing, he found that Trump as we would expect dominated

:35:58.:36:01.

the news cycle day after day but he never dominated it with the same

:36:02.:36:05.

story. When he was insulting the Pope, by the next day the caravan

:36:06.:36:09.

had moved on to something else. He could chuck these grenades and move

:36:10.:36:15.

on to the next one. So you are kind of quite sympathetic to the great

:36:16.:36:19.

acceleration, but I am guessing you are not like a big Donald Trump fan?

:36:20.:36:24.

You have kind of talked against your own thesis here, this is what you

:36:25.:36:32.

get. Yes, so I think, I mean, as you said my thesis is there are bad

:36:33.:36:35.

things and good thing, but one of the things with the media it does,

:36:36.:36:40.

it is not so much everything gets faster, what it does it poll rice,

:36:41.:36:44.

you have the sort of fast paced breaking news stuff but you have

:36:45.:36:49.

more people than ever doing good considered, long reads or writing

:36:50.:36:54.

analysis pieces or like, I mentioned naught silver, doing data driven

:36:55.:36:59.

study, there is more good stuff out there as well as the... That is

:37:00.:37:05.

because books have shrunk down into long reads. Let us take another

:37:06.:37:08.

example. This is an interesting one. This, and you do devote a section o

:37:09.:37:16.

which is dating and relationships. I think people would worry that

:37:17.:37:19.

swiping right on tinder, or constantly going online to sort of

:37:20.:37:24.

or speed-dating as the kind of, the sort of end point, I mean, you, can

:37:25.:37:31.

you see any advantage in dating in numbers in that way? Absolutely,

:37:32.:37:35.

dating is horrible. In many way, if you are out there on a the market

:37:36.:37:39.

you are trying to find the right person, it takes ages and you have

:37:40.:37:44.

all the meetings with people and you don't quite click, just increasing

:37:45.:37:49.

the number of people you meet is sort of pretty good. Being able to

:37:50.:37:54.

have that thing with speed-dating, so knowing, OK this person and I

:37:55.:37:59.

click and you know, the two of us should never have met in first

:38:00.:38:05.

place, rather than having to... Even online dating isn't that efficient.

:38:06.:38:09.

People, you spend a lot of time honing your profile and scrolling

:38:10.:38:14.

and looking for, and looking for Mr Right and rejecting this one. Who

:38:15.:38:19.

wants online dating when you have tinder? That is instant. It leads to

:38:20.:38:24.

a hook up culture, people are more likely to go out and have a good

:38:25.:38:30.

time, but it is hard to begrudge then that, I don't think there is

:38:31.:38:33.

much evidence people don't want to get married and settle down. You

:38:34.:38:37.

talk about The Great Acceleration. Are you talking about your life,

:38:38.:38:41.

because it is Metropolitan, I can think of lots of people, elderly

:38:42.:38:47.

people at home who have quite pleasantly paced lives, they are not

:38:48.:38:52.

rushing round I have been accused of being London-centric, the larger the

:38:53.:38:56.

community we are in the faster the pace of our live, it isn't, I hope

:38:57.:39:01.

it is not just me. Erne I meet says gosh, yes, I feel my life is getting

:39:02.:39:05.

out of control. It is speeding up. Apart from the people who go off and

:39:06.:39:10.

live in the countryside and good luck to them. Thank you.

:39:11.:39:15.

That is all we have time for. I will be back with more tomorrow, just to

:39:16.:39:19.

say The Papers are all going very big on Cameron, the Telegraph, I did

:39:20.:39:25.

have money offshore, the Mail, PM. I did profit from tax haven. He

:39:26.:39:32.

finally admits to link to father's fund. And the Guardian using one of

:39:33.:39:39.

its yellow backed headline. I will be back in this seat

:39:40.:39:43.

tomorrow, until then very good night.

:39:44.:39:56.

Hello. Another day of sunshine and shower, the showers have been fading

:39:57.:40:01.

through the evening and that will continue through the night. The

:40:02.:40:03.

winds fall light. It is going

:40:04.:40:05.

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