07/04/2016 Newsnight


07/04/2016

Newsnight speaks to Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson about David Cameron and questions the man who is buying Tata. Plus treatment for paedophiles and satire in politics.


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Transcript


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It took a few days, but he finally got there.

:00:00.:00:07.

The PM says yes, he did have a stake in his Dad's offshore fund.

:00:08.:00:10.

We'll ask Labour's deputy leader why he thinks it might be

:00:11.:00:18.

We had a joint account. We owned 5,000 ewe anies in Blairmore

:00:19.:00:26.

investment trust which we sold in January 2010.

:00:27.:00:28.

We'll ask Labour's deputy leader why he thinks it might be

:00:29.:00:32.

The Government promises the unions that Tata Steel

:00:33.:00:38.

We'll ask the front runner to buy it, Sanjeev Gupta,

:00:39.:00:42.

Does satire tell us more about politics than politicians do?

:00:43.:01:06.

He's not quite in Prime Minister of Iceland territory,

:01:07.:01:10.

but David Cameron is paddling in a pool of poo this evening,

:01:11.:01:13.

admitting he had benefited from offshore investments

:01:14.:01:15.

of the kind everybody in public life is now embarrassed

:01:16.:01:17.

He had a personal stake in his father's Blairmore fund,

:01:18.:01:25.

the offshore nature of which was exposed

:01:26.:01:29.

But, you might argue, he thinks it's enough a problem

:01:30.:01:36.

that he didn't want to tell us about it.

:01:37.:01:38.

After all, we've had a series of statements this week

:01:39.:01:42.

about his financial affairs that now look crafted to avoid lying,

:01:43.:01:44.

but avoid telling us the whole situation.

:01:45.:01:47.

The holding statements didn't hold, and he came on ITV to tell all.

:01:48.:01:50.

Units in Blairmore investment trust which we sold in January 2010.

:01:51.:01:59.

After days of evading and avoiding questions about his finance, the

:02:00.:02:04.

Prime Minister's finally come clear about Blairmore holdings, the

:02:05.:02:08.

company set up by his father. Samantha and I had a joint account.

:02:09.:02:14.

We owned 5,000 units in Blairmore investment trust, which we sold in

:02:15.:02:20.

January 2010. That was worth something like ?30,000. Was there a

:02:21.:02:25.

profit on it? I paid income tax on the dividend but there was a profit

:02:26.:02:31.

on it but it was less than the capital gains tax allowance, but it

:02:32.:02:34.

was shouldn't to all the UK taxes in the normal ways. A former tax

:02:35.:02:38.

inspector explained to us why the funds are based in places like

:02:39.:02:45.

Panama. The idea you would get some quiet serious tax advantage, people

:02:46.:02:49.

could invest in a fund in somewhere like Panama, and when that fund

:02:50.:02:53.

earned income, they wouldn't be taxed on it. So income would roll

:02:54.:02:58.

up, offshore for as long as they wanted and they would only be

:02:59.:03:01.

taxable when they took the money out, either as dividends or by

:03:02.:03:06.

selling their shares, in which case there would be capital gapes tax. A

:03:07.:03:10.

major problem for the Prime Minister is how the information emerged.

:03:11.:03:14.

On Monday the Prime Minister's spokesperson said where his money

:03:15.:03:20.

was invested was a private matter. On Tuesday, this was Mr Cameron's

:03:21.:03:24.

reply to a Sky News question on whether he had previously invested

:03:25.:03:30.

in Blairmore. I own no share, I have a salary as Prime Minister, and I

:03:31.:03:35.

have some savings, which I get some interest from and I have a house,

:03:36.:03:39.

which we used to Li in, which we let out while we are living in Downing

:03:40.:03:43.

Street. That is all I have. I have no share, no offshore trust, no

:03:44.:03:48.

funds, nothing like that. A statement issued later on Tuesday

:03:49.:03:51.

said that the Prime Minister, his wife and her children do not benefit

:03:52.:03:57.

from any offshore funds. Yesterday, Downing Street clarified further,

:03:58.:04:00.

there are no offshore funds or trusts with which the Prime

:04:01.:04:03.

Minister, Mrs Cameron or their children will benefit from in

:04:04.:04:08.

future. And that leads us to today. This is obviously not good for the

:04:09.:04:15.

Prime Minister. First of all, he eshoed several opportunities to come

:04:16.:04:18.

clean about this and he chose not to take them. O so today he looks

:04:19.:04:24.

slippery. Secondly and this is less important because we know this

:04:25.:04:29.

already, it shows how privilege his back ground was, it brings up the

:04:30.:04:35.

job his if o father hand and the name of the fund itself is a

:04:36.:04:38.

testament to the grandness of the Cameron family.

:04:39.:04:44.

Blairmore is nameled after the Cameron's home, here in

:04:45.:04:48.

Aberdeenshire. And now, a Christian retreat.

:04:49.:04:52.

Today, above all, Mr Cameron was keen to defend his late father's

:04:53.:04:56.

reputation. I think a lot of the criticisms are based on a

:04:57.:05:02.

fundamental misconreception -- misconception which is Blairmore was

:05:03.:05:05.

set up with the idea of avoiding tax. It wasn't, it was set up after

:05:06.:05:10.

exchange controls went so that people who wanted to invest in

:05:11.:05:14.

dollar denominated shares in companies could do so.

:05:15.:05:18.

I am not clear why he said that this fund was set up so that investors

:05:19.:05:23.

could put money into non-sterling assets. I am not clear why they

:05:24.:05:27.

needed to go to Panama to do that, they could have done that in London.

:05:28.:05:33.

One thing in particular, raises some suspicion, and that is why Blairmore

:05:34.:05:39.

is constituted as a company with bearer share, because those shares

:05:40.:05:43.

don't require the owners to identify themselves, so it becomes more

:05:44.:05:46.

difficult for tax authorities to trace who has taken the income from

:05:47.:05:52.

those companies. The Inland Revenue was once relaxed about funds like

:05:53.:05:58.

that. Ministers wanted PMQs like Mr Cameron's father do what he did. But

:05:59.:06:05.

one person's investing is another 's tax avoidance.

:06:06.:06:06.

Joining us now from his West Bromich constituency is Labour's

:06:07.:06:10.

Ho outraged you tonight? Well, I am confused really, we have had a

:06:11.:06:21.

series of answers from the PM, that are, just seem the lead to more

:06:22.:06:25.

questions. What I think people will expect him to do tonight, is be very

:06:26.:06:31.

clear about what other investments and vehicles he has had as an MP.

:06:32.:06:37.

There was a relative confidence his financial affairs were in good order

:06:38.:06:41.

until he had that dragged out of him earlier this evening. Now people

:06:42.:06:46.

need to know what other shares did he have many Blairmore? Did he

:06:47.:06:51.

dispose of any other shareholdings, has he used any other vehicles as a

:06:52.:06:57.

way of generating income, and offshore accounts we don't know

:06:58.:07:01.

about yet? Can I be clear, are you accusing, you think he was doing

:07:02.:07:07.

this to avoid tax? Or do you think he in any way evaded tax, or... What

:07:08.:07:13.

exactly is the offence that he has committed here? Well, I don't know

:07:14.:07:18.

the Prime Minister's full circumstances, none of us do yet. We

:07:19.:07:22.

have been getting these incremental admittances that he had an

:07:23.:07:27.

investment in an offshore vehicle, that most people think is used to

:07:28.:07:31.

avoid paying tax. Now, that is fine, if you are a normal investor, it

:07:32.:07:37.

might, we might not agree wit it is fine, when you are the Prime

:07:38.:07:41.

Minister, the most powerful man in the land, responsible for framing

:07:42.:07:45.

tax reform, and clamping down on tax avoidance, and you have made

:07:46.:07:50.

speeches, that you are in favour of transparency, heralding a new age

:07:51.:07:55.

and sunlight being the best disinfectant and naming high profile

:07:56.:07:59.

individuals who use things like this and describing them as morally

:08:00.:08:04.

wrong, to admit you have had similar style investment lends you to the

:08:05.:08:10.

acquisition of being a hypocrite. He wasn't Prime Minister, he sold them

:08:11.:08:13.

before he became Prime Minister, didn't he. Is it impossible as a

:08:14.:08:17.

human being to say I have done this, I am a poacher turned gamekeeper, it

:08:18.:08:22.

is better if people like me don't do things like this, I become Prime

:08:23.:08:25.

Minister and try and stop it, what is wrong with that in Well, he was

:08:26.:08:30.

leader of the op six and the point is, he has made judgments on people

:08:31.:08:35.

as Prime Minister, for doing what he used to do, and I don't think it is

:08:36.:08:39.

a good look for a Prime Minister to use the line say as I do, do as I

:08:40.:08:48.

say, not as I do. And it, the avoidance of legitimate journalistic

:08:49.:08:50.

questions in the last three day, just means there are going to be

:08:51.:08:56.

more questions about what his financial arrangements both as

:08:57.:08:59.

Leader of the Opposition and as an MP. I don't think it is unreasonable

:09:00.:09:04.

for people to ask nose questions. You suggested there may be an issue,

:09:05.:09:09.

I am not wanting to overstate what you said, you said there may be an

:09:10.:09:13.

issue of resignation here. Seriously? He has invested in a tax

:09:14.:09:20.

efficient offshore fund, is that seriously something a Prime Minister

:09:21.:09:25.

thinks about resignation over? I have not suggested that and I don't

:09:26.:09:29.

know the facts of the Prime Minister's financial arrangements to

:09:30.:09:32.

be able to draw that. I was asked in another interview if it was a

:09:33.:09:37.

resignation issue, I said maybe but we don't have the facts. What I

:09:38.:09:45.

think we need to do, is you know, what other questions does that

:09:46.:09:49.

rather Eva sieve three days of answers give us? I think we

:09:50.:09:56.

certainly need to know what other investments David Cameron had when

:09:57.:09:59.

he was Leader of the Opposition. Aren't you coming to the conclusion

:10:00.:10:04.

that anyone in very senior office, like the candidates for Mayor of

:10:05.:10:08.

London, basically have to open up their tax returns and tell us Egg.

:10:09.:10:11.

You are really saying you are not accepting anything he says on trust,

:10:12.:10:18.

he just has to keep telling us until we have every last penny in his bank

:10:19.:10:22.

account I need to be careful about this. He said tonight he thinks he

:10:23.:10:25.

is going to get to a position where he could publish his tax return, but

:10:26.:10:30.

that won't show what investment vehicles he had. And the issue, the

:10:31.:10:34.

issue, the difficulty for the Prime Minister is, this is a particular

:10:35.:10:37.

vehicle that most people think is used to avoid paying tax, and I

:10:38.:10:40.

don't think people want their Prime Minister to be in that situation,

:10:41.:10:42.

and I don't think they want any politicians to be, so we are

:10:43.:10:48.

certainly moving to a point where there will have to be more

:10:49.:10:51.

transparency for powerful people, particularly ministers who are

:10:52.:10:54.

responsible for tax legislation. ? One last question, do you accept his

:10:55.:10:59.

word, when he says, he paid all the tax, the capital gains tax he didn't

:11:00.:11:03.

need to pay, because he didn't apply, and the income tax, he paid

:11:04.:11:09.

all the UK tax, that were due, on a legitimate and legal overseas

:11:10.:11:12.

investment? Well, I certainly hope he wasn't lying to the British

:11:13.:11:17.

people. He certainly wasn't answering all the questions the

:11:18.:11:19.

journalists were asking on their behalf. The point is it has taken

:11:20.:11:24.

three days to get to this point. Had he given a straight answer he would

:11:25.:11:28.

be be in a much better position this evening. As it happens he has

:11:29.:11:33.

aroused curiosity and it makes you think, if he had to admit tonight,

:11:34.:11:39.

what other shareholdings may he have, he will need the clean that up

:11:40.:11:40.

tomorrow. we start on the cover up not the

:11:41.:11:58.

crime. Isn't that the problem for David Cameron, he has obfuscated

:11:59.:12:02.

over this and then had to admit it. In so far as there is political

:12:03.:12:07.

damage it is because he didn't make a full disclosure, about exactly how

:12:08.:12:13.

he benefitted from his father's investments, and offshore fund, on

:12:14.:12:17.

day one, so he has created the impression that he has something to

:12:18.:12:22.

hide, but now he has come out, and made what looks very much like a

:12:23.:12:27.

full disclosure and is about to publish his tax return, it turns out

:12:28.:12:30.

he had nothing to hide in the first place. I can see why Labour are

:12:31.:12:33.

trying to do their best to make as much capital out of this as they can

:12:34.:12:38.

and make it look like he has been engaged in an attempt to cover

:12:39.:12:42.

something up. Now that we have the full tacts were us, which it looks

:12:43.:12:47.

like we do, it looks like we do, it doesn't seem as if he was covering

:12:48.:12:51.

something up. I used the word crime. You don't think there is any crime

:12:52.:12:55.

here, you don't think there is any problem here of being Leader of the

:12:56.:12:58.

Opposition, he was not Prime Minister, he did it before the

:12:59.:13:02.

election made him Prime Minister, there is no problem Leader of the

:13:03.:13:07.

Opposition, investments, in an offshore fund, that had bearer

:13:08.:13:11.

shares which everything knows are the not the best, in an up right way

:13:12.:13:18.

of issues documentary support for your holdings, a smell of any kind?

:13:19.:13:24.

I am not a tax lawyer, so I don't know why Ian Cameron set up the fund

:13:25.:13:30.

in Panama, but... It was very tax efficient. The Prime Minister said

:13:31.:13:34.

it wasn't a tax avoidance vehicle, it was set up for the purposes of

:13:35.:13:41.

dealing in, non-sterling shares and so forth, and when it was set up in

:13:42.:13:46.

1982, unlike what Richard Brooks said in the report earlier, you

:13:47.:13:47.

couldn't do that. Do you think the Prime Minister is

:13:48.:14:02.

going to have to release more, now? Tom Watson has said, basically,

:14:03.:14:06.

every statement begets the next statement, because it follows on.

:14:07.:14:13.

You said this was followed and final, but is it, he's now told us?

:14:14.:14:18.

But Tom Watson had a huge list of more questions. Where does this end?

:14:19.:14:28.

He started off by saying he was not benefiting in the present, then he

:14:29.:14:31.

said he would not benefit in the future, it doesn't look like he has

:14:32.:14:34.

any more shares in Blairmore. He sold his holding in 2010 and has

:14:35.:14:38.

acknowledged he did benefit, he did make a few thousand pounds from

:14:39.:14:42.

selling blame or shares in 2010, but that looks like the extent to how he

:14:43.:14:50.

has benefited. -- Blairmore shares. When we look at the nation, the

:14:51.:14:55.

relationship with the public and politicians, tax avoidance is quite

:14:56.:14:59.

high up in the ranking of sins, between having an affair and

:15:00.:15:09.

investing in a supremely tax efficient investment, I think the

:15:10.:15:13.

average politician would say they would probably rather be caught

:15:14.:15:17.

having an affair than investing in an offshore fund? Certainly, the

:15:18.:15:22.

public dislike revelations that politicians are engaging in tax

:15:23.:15:27.

avoidance, it confirms the generally poor view of politicians. But I

:15:28.:15:30.

think it is not a party political issue. The Labour Party benefits

:15:31.:15:36.

from donations from trade unions that engage in tax avoidance, the

:15:37.:15:40.

largest single donor to the Labour Party at the time of the last

:15:41.:15:43.

election was PricewaterhouseCoopers, Margaret Hodge herself, a tax

:15:44.:15:51.

avoidance, said had been in involved in tax avoidance on an industrial

:15:52.:15:55.

scale. This Government, to its credit, has done more to combat tax

:15:56.:15:58.

avoidance than the previous government did in 13 years in

:15:59.:16:02.

office. I don't think it is specifically damning to the Tories.

:16:03.:16:06.

Margaret Hodge is not here to defend herself, so we will put that aside.

:16:07.:16:10.

Put aside affairs Panamanian, and the man of the week

:16:11.:16:12.

is Sanjeev Gupta - a potential buyer of the UK steel

:16:13.:16:15.

Rather little is known about him, and he has a complex network

:16:16.:16:19.

of companies registered in Singapore and one in the Isle of Man.

:16:20.:16:22.

Many have struggled to see how he can really make a viable business

:16:23.:16:25.

He admitted yesterday that his plans for steel in the UK were undeveloped

:16:26.:16:30.

So earlier today we managed to get half an hour of his time,

:16:31.:16:34.

to talk through his vision and his business.

:16:35.:16:37.

A key factor in any deal will be whether a prospective

:16:38.:16:39.

buyer can actually afford to run the Tata business.

:16:40.:16:42.

I started by asking Sanjeev Gupta what his existing business

:16:43.:16:44.

My father's business, my businesses, which I rely on are currently worth

:16:45.:17:01.

about $1 billion. $1 billion, does that give you enough financial

:17:02.:17:05.

muscle to take over a steel business that is losing maybe 2 million or

:17:06.:17:17.

more pounds per day? We would not undertake the exercise if we could

:17:18.:17:22.

not make money. We will make the analysis and a business plan, and we

:17:23.:17:26.

believe it can be profitable. If it can, we will undertake it. The

:17:27.:17:30.

business plan will be shared with all stakeholders, not least my own,

:17:31.:17:35.

who all have to re-sign off, and it will be shared with other parties

:17:36.:17:41.

like the Government and Tata. We have encountered some degree of

:17:42.:17:46.

scepticism that the purchase of Tata Steel's UK operations, some

:17:47.:17:50.

scepticism that it can be made to fly. I think scepticism is natural

:17:51.:17:53.

when a business has been losing this much money and it has not been able

:17:54.:17:57.

to make profit, despite a lot of effort. Scepticism is natural. But

:17:58.:18:02.

my point is that the reason is exactly that, if it was just a

:18:03.:18:05.

question of money, it would have been sold already. Tata has enough

:18:06.:18:11.

money. The point is that it needs a new model, there is something wrong

:18:12.:18:14.

with the model, rather than just resources. How much money do you

:18:15.:18:18.

think the taxpayer needs to give you to make it work? The Government

:18:19.:18:23.

cannot give money anyway, it is against EU regulation, so even if

:18:24.:18:26.

they wanted to, they would not be able to give tax payer money towards

:18:27.:18:35.

it. Can I ask... What we want is resolutions to the issues. We don't

:18:36.:18:39.

want to take over liabilities, and we need a solution to the power

:18:40.:18:44.

base. A very crucial thing you have said, that you say you don't want to

:18:45.:18:47.

take on liabilities, you don't want to take on the pension liabilities

:18:48.:18:53.

of the existing workers? Yes, we want a solution to that. Any

:18:54.:18:59.

prospective buyer that wants to look at this will want a resolution. 52

:19:00.:19:04.

companies we have counted in the UK, in the last three or four months,

:19:05.:19:09.

they have lots of names, Natural Gas Tubes Limited, they don't seem to be

:19:10.:19:16.

doing anything at the moment. Why have you registered 52 UK companies

:19:17.:19:21.

in the last four months? We own the something like 20 businesses in the

:19:22.:19:28.

UK. There are probably 15 or 20 companies, various companies doing

:19:29.:19:32.

various things. Often you have dormant companies waiting for

:19:33.:19:34.

acquisitions or businesses to be started. This is nothing... I mean,

:19:35.:19:39.

there is nothing wrong or unusual about holding companies. They are UK

:19:40.:19:45.

companies, audited and perfectly compliant with everything. I am not

:19:46.:19:48.

sure what these questions are about. There is a degree of capacity and

:19:49.:19:52.

complexity that has made it quite difficult. This is a private group,

:19:53.:19:57.

and it complies with every regulation. All of these companies,

:19:58.:20:06.

in the UK, all registered companies, public information. A private

:20:07.:20:09.

company does the structures in the best possible way to organise

:20:10.:20:13.

itself, all of the information is available publicly. Can we talk

:20:14.:20:16.

about what has happened in Scotland, and what the implications are? You

:20:17.:20:22.

have taken over two plants. That is correct. Can you throw light on the

:20:23.:20:27.

mysterious transaction? You bought it from Tata, the Scottish

:20:28.:20:31.

Government owned it for half an hour, or a short period in between.

:20:32.:20:38.

What was the purpose of that complicated transaction? The

:20:39.:20:42.

Scottish Government, very helpfully, acted as the middleman, the broker.

:20:43.:20:47.

What did they do by buying and selling it to you? We didn't

:20:48.:20:52.

negotiate the deal bilaterally, it was a back-to-back deal. The

:20:53.:20:55.

Scottish Government negotiated the deal with Tata and we negotiated

:20:56.:20:58.

with the Scottish Government. Did they take any risks, did they take

:20:59.:21:02.

the pension liabilities away from the company before selling it to

:21:03.:21:06.

you? Is there something the Scottish taxpayer... There was different

:21:07.:21:11.

versions negotiated. In the end, what was finalised was a clean, back

:21:12.:21:16.

deal, they took no risk. There is a very bad experience in the not too

:21:17.:21:21.

distant British memory of Rover, which fell out of business, put on

:21:22.:21:26.

the market by BMW, who owned it, a buyer came forward, everybody wanted

:21:27.:21:31.

the buyers to make it work. They took it over, they got a lot of

:21:32.:21:34.

help, the Government promoted the purchase of the company for ?10, and

:21:35.:21:39.

then it failed several years later. It left everybody much worse off

:21:40.:21:42.

than perhaps if it had failed earlier. I just wonder, if the

:21:43.:21:47.

British had been stung by that experience, and maybe whether they

:21:48.:21:51.

think, or many will feel, the same is going to happen here, that you

:21:52.:21:55.

will take it over, we will hope you can make it work, and somehow, at

:21:56.:21:59.

the end of it all, it will fail in a few years' time, rather than now. Is

:22:00.:22:07.

that prospect, do think, for steel in the south-west? Any buyer that

:22:08.:22:12.

comes forward, the businessman must be examined very carefully. This

:22:13.:22:15.

business has not been easy, it is not an easy environment to make

:22:16.:22:19.

money in steel. The turnaround plan must be something that is different.

:22:20.:22:23.

Now before we move on, let's have another look at that

:22:24.:22:26.

On June the 23rd, the UK will make its most important

:22:27.:22:31.

political decision for a generation - whether to leave or remain

:22:32.:22:34.

But if you're struggling through the quagmire

:22:35.:22:43.

of competing arguments, we'll do our best to help.

:22:44.:22:46.

Over the next two months, Newsnight will be devoting a set

:22:47.:22:49.

of special programmes to some of the key issues,

:22:50.:22:53.

like migration, security, the economy and sovereignty.

:22:54.:22:58.

But we can arm you with some of the information

:22:59.:23:04.

So join us for the first of these special shows this Monday.

:23:05.:23:17.

Our subject on Monday will be sovereignty.

:23:18.:23:19.

Can you stop a paedophile before they've abused a child?

:23:20.:23:24.

That's the aim of a unique clinical trial in Sweden, in which

:23:25.:23:28.

researchers are hoping to prevent potential abusers ever carrying out

:23:29.:23:30.

an offence with just a single injection.

:23:31.:23:32.

Researchers at the Karolinska Institute, one of the world's

:23:33.:23:34.

leading medical universities, believe that a drug called

:23:35.:23:36.

Degaralix, which stops the brain from making testosterone can combat

:23:37.:23:38.

hyper-sexuality and aggression, turning off the need to seek out

:23:39.:23:41.

The drug has been tested on five Swedish men who called

:23:42.:23:45.

a sexual offenders' helpline because they were concerned

:23:46.:23:47.

about their paedophilic inclinations, and now a trial

:23:48.:23:49.

using 60 volunteers, half of who will receive

:23:50.:23:51.

the drug and half a placebo, is to take place.

:23:52.:23:59.

The trial raises ethical questions about if therapies can be introduced

:24:00.:24:07.

for the most dangerous offenders before they have broken the law.

:24:08.:24:11.

To discuss the approach I am joined now by Belinda Winder,

:24:12.:24:14.

a forensic psychologist, who has pioneered a trial of giving

:24:15.:24:16.

libido-repressing drugs to sexual offenders in prison in Nottingham,

:24:17.:24:18.

and Gabriel Shaw, Chief Executive at the National Association

:24:19.:24:20.

for People Abused in Childhood, Napac.

:24:21.:24:24.

Good evening. Belinda, you have been using a different chemical mix, but

:24:25.:24:32.

does it work, I suppose that is the first question. The medications we

:24:33.:24:38.

have been using, yes, they work to reduce sexual arousal. First, I want

:24:39.:24:42.

to take issue with the first question about spotting a

:24:43.:24:45.

paedophile, we need to be clear that many paedophiles do not offend

:24:46.:24:49.

against children. Many people have entrenched preference for children,

:24:50.:24:53.

they will know about this from puberty, but they never offend

:24:54.:24:56.

against children. We then have some paedophiles who are struggling not

:24:57.:25:00.

to offend against children. Some blues that struggle. Some

:25:01.:25:05.

paedophiles do not really care in terms of the damage they do. -- some

:25:06.:25:08.

blues the struggle. They will go on to offend. We should applaud the

:25:09.:25:13.

good group of paedophiles that never offend against children. Many people

:25:14.:25:20.

who offend against children are not actually paedophiles, they are

:25:21.:25:25.

people that are sexually indiscriminate and will offend

:25:26.:25:28.

against any available outlet, and children are easy pickings. That is

:25:29.:25:32.

an interesting starting position, I just want to see if you agree with

:25:33.:25:36.

that, is that how you view the spectrum of conditions? That is

:25:37.:25:39.

right. Belinda laid it out very carefully. One of the concerns I had

:25:40.:25:43.

about the story was that there is a thought that it might be a magical

:25:44.:25:47.

silver bullet, that by giving a drug, it would be a panacea to

:25:48.:25:51.

everything. Let's remember that the abuse of children is not purely or

:25:52.:25:54.

solely driven by sexual desire. There is a whole range of issues. It

:25:55.:26:00.

is about power, control, coercion and manipulation. It can't just be

:26:01.:26:06.

seen as you have this drug and it cures everything. I want to be

:26:07.:26:10.

clear, do you accept that there are, if you like, and benign paedophiles

:26:11.:26:23.

that deserve sympathy rather than condemnation? There are people that

:26:24.:26:26.

have urges, but it is about what they do with them, the

:26:27.:26:31.

self-determination. Let's go back to the drugs. People will hear what

:26:32.:26:38.

you're saying, that there is no such thing as a paedophile that deserves

:26:39.:26:42.

respect, they might say, but I want to park that. The drugs work in

:26:43.:26:49.

affecting the way that people who worry about the inclinations, they

:26:50.:26:55.

were? They work on reducing sexual arousal, sexual preoccupation,

:26:56.:26:59.

thinking about sex constantly, and having persistent urges for sexual

:27:00.:27:03.

outlets. They work on reducing that aspect of sexual offending. It is a

:27:04.:27:09.

big aspect of sexual offending, but not the only aspect. You probably

:27:10.:27:12.

have two people here that will agree with each other. Do you think that

:27:13.:27:16.

they should be promoting these drugs to people that worry about their

:27:17.:27:19.

inclinations? It's about child protection, anything that helps

:27:20.:27:24.

protect a child from the risk of harm has to be welcomed. Let's

:27:25.:27:30.

promote it, yes. If we take it more widely, it is about resources. You

:27:31.:27:33.

can understand survivor anger, if it was felt that too many resources

:27:34.:27:39.

were being placed on this issue, whereas we know that there is

:27:40.:27:44.

support for survivors, who have been traumatised and abused as children,

:27:45.:27:47.

and it is just not there, it is patchy across the UK. There is a

:27:48.:27:51.

balance to be struck with scarce resources. Where do you place the

:27:52.:27:57.

most? The idea is also promoted that you might say to convicted

:27:58.:28:01.

paedophiles, people that have abused children, maybe your sentence will

:28:02.:28:04.

be shorter if you agree to some kind of treatment. The survivor community

:28:05.:28:10.

thinks... What? Do they say that as a practical way of proceeding, or

:28:11.:28:16.

no, no way do you trade off? The first thing is that survivors are

:28:17.:28:23.

not a homogenous group. That is a bit dangerous. Survivors can

:28:24.:28:27.

differentiate, as Belinda said, about who feel they have these urges

:28:28.:28:32.

and will not offend, and those that well. For convicted paedophiles,

:28:33.:28:36.

this is the other concern, the drug works because people have identified

:28:37.:28:39.

and have self referred. They want to be helped. For people that do not

:28:40.:28:45.

want to be helped, how are you going to apply this? It is all about

:28:46.:28:49.

cooperation, taking it properly. I have concerns it may not be the

:28:50.:28:57.

answer for convicted offenders. You have been trialling this in prison.

:28:58.:29:03.

Tell me how you do it. Do you say, you get something in return? People

:29:04.:29:06.

do not get anything in return, the only thing they get is the benefits

:29:07.:29:12.

of medication. Many guys in prison do not want to reoffend, they don't

:29:13.:29:15.

want to return to prison, they do not want to offend against children.

:29:16.:29:20.

They are not paedophile offenders, necessarily, they are men offending

:29:21.:29:26.

against children, which includes paedophiles. It might sound like

:29:27.:29:30.

language, but it's important society takes on board the different parts

:29:31.:29:34.

of terminology. We will leave it there, thank you.

:29:35.:29:36.

There have been some unlikely leading men over the years,

:29:37.:29:38.

and none more so than the star of a new musical which opens

:29:39.:29:41.

The spotlight falls on the Labour leader in Corbyn the Musical,

:29:42.:29:45.

a light-hearted romp which also features Dianne Abbott,

:29:46.:29:47.

Declaration of interest - the show, at Waterloo East Theatre,

:29:48.:29:51.

was co-written by a former Newsnight producer, but don't

:29:52.:29:53.

Does political satire do a better job of connecting politics

:29:54.:29:57.

with people than election campaigns and PMQs?

:29:58.:29:58.

Our man in the stalls is Stephen Smith.

:29:59.:30:11.

# The world in my hands # Sleep safe at night

:30:12.:30:17.

# Mow with the left, we are getting it right

:30:18.:30:20.

# Didn't sell out, # I didn't give in

:30:21.:30:24.

# You needed a hero # You got Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn, as

:30:25.:30:28.

you never thought you would see him. As the star of a musical comedy.

:30:29.:30:37.

# Austerity is mean. # I did a portrayal of Peter Mandelson

:30:38.:30:43.

last year. I was kind of Peter Mandelson this

:30:44.:30:48.

time last year and now I am Jeremy Corbyn this year.

:30:49.:30:55.

# You're with the left, we're getting it right. #

:30:56.:30:59.

Isn't this liberating. I am having such a great time. It is feel good

:31:00.:31:05.

romance of year, the show spares no expense to recreate a motorbike tour

:31:06.:31:10.

of east Germany that Mr Corbyn supposedly took with Diane Abbott.

:31:11.:31:14.

It must be terrible to be trapped behind there. Imagine never to be

:31:15.:31:23.

able to visit the other side. The The story going on a trip to east

:31:24.:31:27.

Germany which may or may not have happened. Have you done your

:31:28.:31:31.

research like the former Newsnight journalist you are? Of course I have

:31:32.:31:35.

done my research. Even better than when I was on Newsnight if that were

:31:36.:31:40.

possible. We will leave that! We have found that the motorcycle trip

:31:41.:31:46.

probably didn't happen. Whoa. They went on holiday together. They did.

:31:47.:31:50.

They defy they went to east Germany that is for the reasons we describe.

:31:51.:31:55.

We are here now, I can't wait to experience the life of a Communist

:31:56.:32:01.

country. I was so excited... Showing her as not just Diane the

:32:02.:32:06.

politician, Diane the human, the slightly sexual predator. It is a

:32:07.:32:13.

bit fruity? It is. At times, at times. It is family fruit. If the he

:32:14.:32:21.

lands up in... Are you capable of speaking English? I went to Eton. So

:32:22.:32:28.

yes. Boris is in it. Boris is the opposite of or bin. It is no a nasty

:32:29.:32:34.

musical. It is funny. It pokes fun at Conservatives and Labour, and you

:32:35.:32:38.

know, if you can't laugh about politics, what is point of being in

:32:39.:32:42.

it I am standing as I have stood before in this election on a single

:32:43.:32:47.

issue. The one way system round our supermarket. One way? No way. The

:32:48.:32:56.

director of this political comedy says the genre can take audiences to

:32:57.:33:01.

places that the news media fails to reach. Long after it was possible to

:33:02.:33:06.

do anything about it. People say to me, can't you co-something about

:33:07.:33:10.

Brexit. I can't think how you could get into that as an issue. I think

:33:11.:33:15.

that political stories tend to work really well when they are chamber

:33:16.:33:19.

piece, so when you find the room you weren't in, the meeting that you

:33:20.:33:23.

weren't at, when you get that glimpse behind the scenes into

:33:24.:33:28.

moments of decision making or crunch points, in a way it is a media's

:33:29.:33:33.

role I think to give its access to what politicians do, very publicly,

:33:34.:33:37.

so to those moment of great event, sometimes it is theatre's role to

:33:38.:33:41.

get behind the scenes and imagine ourself into those spaces so we can

:33:42.:33:45.

look at humanity of making those decisions.

:33:46.:33:51.

# A lawyer is never more than six feet away. #

:33:52.:33:58.

# All our children engage in gender nonspecific play. Feet away. #

:33:59.:34:00.

# All our children engage in gender nonspecific play. #

:34:01.:34:02.

? Well it takes us into the Camelot, the Brigadoon of his north London

:34:03.:34:06.

postcode. And perhaps some will see him in a new light.

:34:07.:34:12.

Jez, we can-can. # It is the place for which I truly

:34:13.:34:18.

care # Islington

:34:19.:34:23.

# I will fight to save my people there. #

:34:24.:34:35.

It doesn't seem that long ago, we were all talking

:34:36.:34:38.

Seeing value in taking time over things.

:34:39.:34:40.

Well, it took a bit of time, but the counter

:34:41.:34:43.

A book that takes an optimistic view of our hurried lives.

:34:44.:34:47.

It sees some of the downsides of rushing things -

:34:48.:34:52.

in the media for example, what's been called the 24

:34:53.:34:54.

But ultimately it comes down in favour - acceleration

:34:55.:35:04.

is something we have actively chosen, says the author,

:35:05.:35:06.

Good evening to you. It is a grand sweeping boobs, because you explain

:35:07.:35:16.

everything. In terms... Try to. Let us take an example, politics today

:35:17.:35:19.

and Donald Trump, because you managed to squeeze this into the

:35:20.:35:25.

kind of accelerated lives thesis, how does that fit? So Trump is in

:35:26.:35:31.

some ways a product of acceleration and the dislocation to the economy,

:35:32.:35:34.

the fact that people are angry and feel they are losing out is because

:35:35.:35:39.

you know, the fast paced globalised economy, there are people who don't

:35:40.:35:44.

do well from that. He uses Twitter, he doesn't have campaigners, he

:35:45.:35:47.

reaches people directly with this technology, but it is more than

:35:48.:35:53.

that, Trump is perfect instant politician, silver in the US did a

:35:54.:35:57.

fascinating thing, he found that Trump as we would expect dominated

:35:58.:36:01.

the news cycle day after day but he never dominated it with the same

:36:02.:36:05.

story. When he was insulting the Pope, by the next day the caravan

:36:06.:36:09.

had moved on to something else. He could chuck these grenades and move

:36:10.:36:15.

on to the next one. So you are kind of quite sympathetic to the great

:36:16.:36:19.

acceleration, but I am guessing you are not like a big Donald Trump fan?

:36:20.:36:24.

You have kind of talked against your own thesis here, this is what you

:36:25.:36:32.

get. Yes, so I think, I mean, as you said my thesis is there are bad

:36:33.:36:35.

things and good thing, but one of the things with the media it does,

:36:36.:36:40.

it is not so much everything gets faster, what it does it poll rice,

:36:41.:36:44.

you have the sort of fast paced breaking news stuff but you have

:36:45.:36:49.

more people than ever doing good considered, long reads or writing

:36:50.:36:54.

analysis pieces or like, I mentioned naught silver, doing data driven

:36:55.:36:59.

study, there is more good stuff out there as well as the... That is

:37:00.:37:05.

because books have shrunk down into long reads. Let us take another

:37:06.:37:08.

example. This is an interesting one. This, and you do devote a section o

:37:09.:37:16.

which is dating and relationships. I think people would worry that

:37:17.:37:19.

swiping right on tinder, or constantly going online to sort of

:37:20.:37:24.

or speed-dating as the kind of, the sort of end point, I mean, you, can

:37:25.:37:31.

you see any advantage in dating in numbers in that way? Absolutely,

:37:32.:37:35.

dating is horrible. In many way, if you are out there on a the market

:37:36.:37:39.

you are trying to find the right person, it takes ages and you have

:37:40.:37:44.

all the meetings with people and you don't quite click, just increasing

:37:45.:37:49.

the number of people you meet is sort of pretty good. Being able to

:37:50.:37:54.

have that thing with speed-dating, so knowing, OK this person and I

:37:55.:37:59.

click and you know, the two of us should never have met in first

:38:00.:38:05.

place, rather than having to... Even online dating isn't that efficient.

:38:06.:38:09.

People, you spend a lot of time honing your profile and scrolling

:38:10.:38:14.

and looking for, and looking for Mr Right and rejecting this one. Who

:38:15.:38:19.

wants online dating when you have tinder? That is instant. It leads to

:38:20.:38:24.

a hook up culture, people are more likely to go out and have a good

:38:25.:38:30.

time, but it is hard to begrudge then that, I don't think there is

:38:31.:38:33.

much evidence people don't want to get married and settle down. You

:38:34.:38:37.

talk about The Great Acceleration. Are you talking about your life,

:38:38.:38:41.

because it is Metropolitan, I can think of lots of people, elderly

:38:42.:38:47.

people at home who have quite pleasantly paced lives, they are not

:38:48.:38:52.

rushing round I have been accused of being London-centric, the larger the

:38:53.:38:56.

community we are in the faster the pace of our live, it isn't, I hope

:38:57.:39:01.

it is not just me. Erne I meet says gosh, yes, I feel my life is getting

:39:02.:39:05.

out of control. It is speeding up. Apart from the people who go off and

:39:06.:39:10.

live in the countryside and good luck to them. Thank you.

:39:11.:39:15.

That is all we have time for. I will be back with more tomorrow, just to

:39:16.:39:19.

say The Papers are all going very big on Cameron, the Telegraph, I did

:39:20.:39:25.

have money offshore, the Mail, PM. I did profit from tax haven. He

:39:26.:39:32.

finally admits to link to father's fund. And the Guardian using one of

:39:33.:39:39.

its yellow backed headline. I will be back in this seat

:39:40.:39:43.

tomorrow, until then very good night.

:39:44.:39:56.

Hello. Another day of sunshine and shower, the showers have been fading

:39:57.:40:01.

through the evening and that will continue through the night. The

:40:02.:40:03.

winds fall light. It is going

:40:04.:40:05.

Newsnight speaks to Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson about David Cameron and questions the man who is buying Tata. Plus treatment for paedophiles, satire in politics and the speed of life.


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