Newsnight EU Special: Who Rules the UK? Newsnight


Newsnight EU Special: Who Rules the UK?

A special programme examining the issue of British sovereignty as we approach the EU referendum.


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Transcript


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Throughout Britain's history, we've been a sovereign nation.

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So do we want to take control back, or are we happy to share it?

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It's a special programme tonight on the EU, sovereignty and power.

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We'll visit this place, the sovereign principality

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of Sealand, to ask if it's better to be a small nation,

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with more direct control over your own affairs.

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We are a thorn in the side of the British government, I believe.

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They have try to control us in the past, unsuccessfully.

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But absolutely, it is not lawless, here.

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It is common-sense law, what you have.

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make the law, not because anybody else tells you?

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We'll ask our guests just how much of our lives Brussels controls,

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and we'll see how many of our laws come from the EU.

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This is the 1972 European Communities Act.

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This is it, the act that took us into the European Economic

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We'll ask this Cabinet minister and this former Commissioner

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if Brexit would give us more power back over our lives,

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or just lose influence over the rest of Europe?

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MUSIC: "500 Miles (I'm Gonna Be)" - The Proclaimers.

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# Forced on King John as he made off with the revenue.

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Does our culture of Magna Carta and liberty make it particularly

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hard for us to ever settle down in a bigger continental club?

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Good evening, it's more crowded than usual in here this evening -

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It's the first of six, in fact, over the next two months,

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each devoted to one big issue in the referendum campaign.

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And we are live blogging the each one of the website with extra

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background and analysis. Our goal in these programmes

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is to help you make up We'll look at the economy, security,

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migration, to name a few. But we picked perhaps the hardest

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one to start with: The word sovereign can refer

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to a king or queen, a gold coin or a holiday company,

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but for our purposes tonight, Is this country ruled

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by those we elect here, Most pertinently, can

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we kick out the authorities With me here, Lord Mandelson

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and Chris Grayling, for the In and Out sides

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of the argument. A panel of people

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with expert knowledge We have a group of undecideds

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here selected for us by the pollsters Ipsos Mori

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and, these poor souls, with us for each of our specials

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throughout the campaign. all about people like them -

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as the referendum will likely be lost or won by the people

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who could swing either way. I don't know how important you think

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sovereignty is that I think you think it is central to the

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referendum issue. I think it is vital, it is how we make laws, raise

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taxes, who governs our waters. It is a key issue. Everything derives from

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that? Lewis, I think you are someone who was not so taken with the issue.

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I think it was a topic that was least necessary for me to know

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because it is probably the hardest to pitch post-referendum. I will do

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something I should not do, show your hands. I will give you a choice, how

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many would say... Sovereignty is the most important issue, how many would

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say the economy? How many would put sovereignty above the economy as an

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issue? And how many would put the economy above sovereignty? OK, we

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will see whether by the end of the programme you are persuaded

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sovereignty is important. Angela, I am glad I picked you to start with.

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OK, before we get stuck into discussion in here,

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We wanted to start you off with some sovereignty basics.

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How might you look at the issue of what powers of self-determination

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we'd gain by leaving the EU, and what we'd possibly

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The case against the EU is simple - we should decide our laws,

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not subcontract them to a remote authority overseas.

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The case for the EU, was put by a former President

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"In the age of globalisation, pooled sovereignty means more power,

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I've been giving a bit of thought to sovereignty and power.

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It is not a country you have probably visited.

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This is Sealand, a self-proclaimed micro-nation a few miles

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It is an old Second World War anti-aircraft

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It was outside territorial waters when claimed by

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They declared it a sovereign principality almost 50

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There is not much to do here - you can enjoy the views, and

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ponder on the meaning of what it is to be sovereign.

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It was seized by a man called Paddy Roy Bates.

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It is our frontier, it is our small slice of freedom in

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We are a thorn in the side of the British Government, I believe,

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because they have tried to control us in the past, unsuccessfully.

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But absolutely it is not lawless here.

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But it is up to you that you make the law, not

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because anyone else tells you to make the law.

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This is an extreme example of one sovereignty

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They have sovereignty here, but not much else.

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This is what some on the Remain side of the argument

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think Britain would be like if we left the EU.

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We would get our sovereignty back, but we would be an

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irrelevant outpost in the middle of the North Sea.

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You can be king of a castle, but only if it is a very

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Obviously this is a very extreme and ludicrous way of

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framing the sovereignty debate, but it does

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perhaps illustrate the

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potential dilemma between sovereignty and influence.

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If we leave the EU, we stop others interfering in our lives, but we can

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We gain power back over our own affairs, but we lose influence over

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Lest this all sounds a bit far-flung, go from the metallic hulk

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It provides an example of how our sovereignty is lost.

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We most definitely can't help it as you

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might want, as we have signed up to EU rules that restrict us bailing

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Vicky Pryce was chief economist at the

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Business Department and is a keen supporter of the Remain side.

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If you are looking at it from an economic

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perspective and business perspective, would you want us to

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have a level playing field with rules you understand and you could

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And you don't get all sorts of barriers there

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For that to happen you have to accept

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rules and regulations that apply for everybody,

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so you give up some of

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your sovereignty because you choose to do so,

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because it makes a lot of

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For EU supporters, sovereignty is a two-way street.

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We helped our car industry after the financial crash with a

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scrappage scheme, subsidising new cars turned in for old ones.

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We were not allowed to insist on the new

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cars being British, of course, but other countries could not favour

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Other countries had scrappage schemes at the same time,

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in fact we imitated some of the ones already in existence elsewhere.

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they were buying loads of our cars, so you could not say you should only

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buy UK-made cars when in fact we were happy to sell them to others

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who were buying them through their own scrappage scheme.

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So for example of our government wanted to subsidise a

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Under the EU state aid rules, the Austrians

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What on earth has it got to do with them?

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John Redwood is on the Out side of the debate.

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We have lost the right to govern ourselves.

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I think the British people and their Parliament should

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whether they should subsidise a particular way of

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generating power, and that is something

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normal country, the Parliament decides on the advice of people and

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it can become a topic for throwing them out

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Once you are in the European Union you have to ask the permission

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of the others or indeed you may do something

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which the others decide is

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illegal and the court will often back the others

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On Sealand, of course, there is not much of an energy industry and not

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Then others do not give much to Sealand.

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It seems to me we have a

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Do we want to stop making compromises for the sake of others,

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at the possible cost of them no longer compromising for the sake of

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Of course it would be nice if we did not have to make a choice.

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Boris Johnson said when it comes to cake,

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he is pro-having it and pro-eating it.

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Could we stay in the EU and have

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We are not the first country to grapple with this.

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There is a long EU history of argument over nations having vetoes

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over the bits they do not like and it was led by

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General De Gaulle, who returned to power

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having been as it were in

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exile, and he did not like what had been done.

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Under the treaty, which had been negotiated by his

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predecessors, there was to be a gradual increase in the use of

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majority voting so that one member state could not block

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particular measures, especially in agriculture

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and De Gaulle decided he would try to stop it.

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And his way of stopping it

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was to withdraw the French from all meetings.

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The French left an empty chair and for about six months from

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the middle of '65 to '66, the European community

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The veto gives each nation more power but

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makes the community of nations harder to govern.

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The others did not want to give the French veto on

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I can't even say agreement was reached on what became

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known as the Luxembourg compromise, because it was a unilateral

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statement by the French that became known as the Luxembourg compromise

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in which the French said if a member state invokes an important national

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interest on a subject then discussion should continue until a

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It was a classic Euro fudge and it eventually

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lapsed, as John Redwood found when he was a British minister.

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I agreed with the French view then and

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thought the Luxembourg compromise was necessary,

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but of course it did not work.

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It is a warning to people, do not trust them.

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We were told for years we may have signed nasty

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looking treaties, but don't worry, if something important came along

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you could use the Luxembourg compromise and you would get your

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Of course we did not use it and over the years of non-use it

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gradually lapsed and I remember on a couple

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of occasions saying to the

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government, maybe this is an occasion when we need

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to use the Luxembourg compromise and the official

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nobody wanted to go near it because it was row territory

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And one day you woke up and discovered that it was no

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The truth is there are advantages to being a small nation,

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Not having a veto, but not needing one.

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Here they can at least get decisions made quickly.

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The rules are made by my father, Prince Michael, as

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That is the reason Sealand was made into a principality, to simplify the

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That way you do not need to vote things through a parliament.

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Simple constitution not with the red tape,

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The debate over the use of the veto or the power of our

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Parliament to block EU legislation is pretty well over.

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We can pick and choose some of what we do in the EU

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but not all of it and if you don't like that, you should vote to leave.

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At least that is if you think sovereignty is all-important.

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But most of us have to do a little mental cost benefit test.

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If we leave the EU, do we value the powers

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And do we think we would lose influence anyway?

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As you weigh up that choice there is a first

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Living the British dream, or dreaming of a continental life?

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The closer to Europe you feel, the less

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you might worry about pooling power with Europeans.

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The lower the cost of being in the EU.

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Where is the essence where when I close my

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Gisela Stuart is a thoughtful campaigner for Brexit.

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I think in terms of say in the United

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Kingdom, nobody in London would object to paying more taxes to keep

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Northern Ireland as part of the UK, that is part of the union.

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If you go back to the European Union, the

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original six were pretty much a kind of demos.

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And you could have said Denmark and Austria, there was

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All I can tell you now is with 28 and growing, that

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demos has stretched itself beyond its limits.

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Only you know who you feel comfortable sharing your house

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with, your bank account with or your votes with.

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Are the British generally outliers in Europe?

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On average, are our values different from theirs?

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The Anglo-Saxons and probably a lot of

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the seafaring nations know one thing.

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That you cannot control the

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You find the whole of British politics,

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the system in the House of

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We never claim to define ultimate long-standing truths.

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We simply say, here is a problem, what

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One Parliament does not bind another.

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Because when circumstances change you may have

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No, we take a fundamentally different approach in

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the political decision-making process.

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There is a second question you might want to think about.

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Exactly how much influence do we have over the rest of the EU, so

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The interesting thing about the UK is that it has influenced

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If you look at what is going on right now, I would say a

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large percentage of the industry standards across Europe

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You can argue that even arch sceptic Prime

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Minister Thatcher had a big influence on the whole direction of

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the EU, even if she came to doubt its value.

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There was a move towards greater majority voting in order to

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Margaret Thatcher, Prime Minister at the

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time, although she did not like the idea of giving

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up veto in this area, she was the prime champion of the

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single market, it was part of her drive for greater competitiveness,

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both at home and in the European communities.

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She accepted these considerable changes across a wide

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So that we would move from a veto to majority voting.

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But not everyone agrees we get our way very

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And not everyone thinks the kinds of concessions we win are

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You see all the time we are concentrating on minor

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issues like what shape is a plug or the size

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the big issues of how do we spend our money?

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What taxes are we allowed to raise, how does our welfare

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system work, who was allowed to come to our country?

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The EU has moved on massively from just being a of trade

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As the referendum campaign progresses, you will hear a lot

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about the different countries Britain might emulate.

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You will not hear much about Sealand.

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But it might just help you think about

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sovereignty, power and the potential trade-offs between the two.

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I got back through Sealand passport control safe and well.

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And I'm joined here by Chris Grayling MP,

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one of the Cabinet ministers campaigning for Brexit.

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Lord Mandelson, the Labour politician and former

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European Commissioner, campaigning to Remain.

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And as well as our group of undecided voters,

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Sir Francis Jacobs, a former Advocate General

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Marina Wheeler QC, a barrister described by one newspaper

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as the "brains" behind her husband, Boris Johnson.

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The historian, Professor Robert Tombs and Siobhan Benita,

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who was a civil servant in several big departments and is now

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I want to start with the biggest question on sovereignty.

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Exactly how much control does the EU actually have over us?

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Is it just the single market stuff, or is the EU creeping into every

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Chris Grayling, you have written the U dominates our way of life. Is that

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true? -- that the EU. And we go to work in the morning, our workplace

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conditions are framed by the EU. When we travel to work, the safety

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standards around the transport system come on roads and railways

:19:57.:20:01.

are shaped by the EU. In regards to the countryside, the rules about

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agriculture are shaped by the EU is so are the rules around the

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environment. When we go shopping at the weekend, the rules that give us

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consumer rights are shaped. When we have issues in the news like asylum,

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the definition of an asylum seeker is saved by the EU and so on and so

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on. We look across the full range of government and look for an area of

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government activity that is not wholly or partly shaped by the EU

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and you are looking at quite a small number of areas. Let's focus, road

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safety that you imagine. You are not suggesting that we would not have

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road safety rules if there was not an EU. In practical terms, how

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different are what they are making us do from what we would do anyway?

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Wright let's take a practical example, Boris Johnson has argued

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for it, we've had terrible accident in London, cyclist being crushed by

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lorries. Boris has argued for improved ways of protecting cyclists

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on the roads, changing the way that lorries operate and are structured.

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It falls under EU rules and the French don't want to do it so he has

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said he has not been able to pursue that. But it's going to happen? It

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is a delay while they improve the lorries. It is a typical compromise

:21:16.:21:19.

to look after people with lorries. Boris would ban it tomorrow but the

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French say then that lorries could not drive on our roads. But it is a

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decision we can't take. Live animal transport, I personally don't

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believe we should carry live farm animals over very long distances in

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lorries. I think it's inhumane and we should stop doing it and probably

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the majority of people in this country would stop doing it but we

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can't because EU rules would allow us to do so. Another change we would

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put in place because I think it's right but we can't because the EU

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says it is their competency and they are not doing it. To go through some

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areas where the EU does not touch our stuff, I mean, it touches it all

:21:56.:21:58.

a little bit but the rules of the welfare system for British people

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are basically determined by ours. The welfare system is a good case in

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point. I was employment Minister for the first two and a half years of

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the last Parliament and you are right, the Lisbon Treaty, the most

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east -- most recent EU treaty says Social Security is a national

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confidence by the European Court has ruled that the provisions in the

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treaty would say people should have the freedom to move anywhere they

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want across Europe has been deemed by that court to trump the rights of

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the member states to decide their Social Security. But the bulk of

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where full rules and the bulk of taxes are made here, education,

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health funding, shopping, gay marriage. Increasingly, more wealth

:22:38.:22:40.

are rules are being shaped by decisions in the European Court even

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though they are supposed to be a matter for the UK, they are turning

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into European decisions. Peter Mandelson, do you acknowledge we

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have lost a lot of control? We have had some example there like animal

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transport. A very poor example because I remember legislation to

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protect animal welfare going through the commission when I was a member

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ten years ago. I'm not quite sure what Chris is talking about. It's a

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bit like Boris Johnson's claimed that there is an EU directive that

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prevents children from blowing up balloons, also rubbish. But you are

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not shying away... We do give up some sovereign tree. Absolutely not,

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I don't shy away from it for a moment. But the point I want to make

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is this... So you have given up some intrigue? Chris Como throughout his

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statements, talked about the US some autonomous, independent

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organisation, totally separate from us, making these laws and then

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imposing it on us. We make this law. We, the member states, make this

:23:44.:23:47.

law. We have a member of the European Commission who draws up

:23:48.:23:51.

these proposals in the first place. We have British members of the

:23:52.:23:55.

European Parliament who reflect the public's interest in that

:23:56.:24:01.

legislative system. There are British judges in the European Court

:24:02.:24:07.

of Justice. Sorry, you are not... We have 13% of the vote and they have

:24:08.:24:15.

87%. We, like every other member states, are part of this collective

:24:16.:24:18.

process of taking decisions, formulating legislation, pursuing

:24:19.:24:25.

policies and yes, in many cases, they are a compromise. Can I give

:24:26.:24:32.

you an example? It is not simply Britain standing aside in spend that

:24:33.:24:35.

isolation, agreeing with itself. That's the easiest thing in the

:24:36.:24:39.

world. But where there are things that we need to pursue legislation,

:24:40.:24:43.

that we need to introduce on an EU wide basis, then we are part of the

:24:44.:24:49.

system. Who do you think got rid of all the roaming charges for mobile

:24:50.:24:55.

phones? The European Union dead. Can I give a quick example? That is not

:24:56.:25:00.

wholly true. North Sea oil expression, after the Gulf of Mexico

:25:01.:25:03.

oil disaster, the commission decided it needed to step in and tighten

:25:04.:25:06.

safety standards, even though we already had in the North Sea the

:25:07.:25:11.

best safety standards in the world. It rewrote the safety practices. As

:25:12.:25:15.

a result, North Sea oil companies are now having to redo the way they

:25:16.:25:18.

work, even though what they were doing was safe in the first place.

:25:19.:25:28.

We could not stop that from happening because we are one of only

:25:29.:25:31.

two or three out of 28 member states... And are those companies

:25:32.:25:33.

complaining about our membership of the Eucharist among are they saying

:25:34.:25:36.

we should come out? They are complaining directly about the

:25:37.:25:39.

legislation. Chris has a long-standing track record and bete

:25:40.:25:44.

noire about health and safety legislation which is drawn up in

:25:45.:25:47.

Europe which he would like to see repealed. What I would say to you is

:25:48.:25:53.

that as a Cabinet minister, if you felt so deeply and passionately

:25:54.:25:57.

about a policy that has been formulated Rod Lawler that has been

:25:58.:26:00.

drawn up in Brussels, then you as a minister have a right to go there.

:26:01.:26:04.

My complaint about you and some of your colleagues is that you are so

:26:05.:26:08.

Euro phobic that oftentimes, you don't bother to go to Brussels, you

:26:09.:26:12.

don't bother to turn up at the meetings. That's not true, I've

:26:13.:26:16.

represented the UK at European Council meetings for five years,

:26:17.:26:20.

going to every council meeting that I've been invited to. I realise

:26:21.:26:25.

why... I realise why you are being so defensive about this. As you well

:26:26.:26:30.

know, many people in Whitehall believe that you hate the European

:26:31.:26:34.

Union so much that you won't bat for Britain by turning up at the

:26:35.:26:38.

meetings. I have been to every council meeting that I've been

:26:39.:26:43.

invited to for five years. I have never sent a junior minister but I

:26:44.:26:49.

have never either felt properly able to represent the UK's interest

:26:50.:26:52.

because I was consistently and always outvoted. So you sometimes

:26:53.:27:00.

did not turn up. That's not true. We will establish that later. I want to

:27:01.:27:04.

bring in a member of the panel, Siobhan Benita. Michael Gove said

:27:05.:27:07.

something quite interesting and I wonder if you can help us with this?

:27:08.:27:12.

I know UR a Remains a porter, you said, "As a minister, I've seen

:27:13.:27:15.

hundreds of new rules across my desk, you will, none of which were

:27:16.:27:19.

questioned by the UK Parliament, none of which I could alter in any

:27:20.:27:24.

way and none of which made us free, richer or fairer". In your

:27:25.:27:27.

experience in the civil service, how many bits of EU staff were rolling

:27:28.:27:31.

across the table? There are two perceptions in this debate which,

:27:32.:27:37.

Mike spirit of 15 years in the civil service, gets a bit muddled in this

:27:38.:27:41.

whole debate. One is exactly what Peter was saying, laws don't get

:27:42.:27:45.

imposed on us. We are there, around the table, negotiating each of those

:27:46.:27:50.

laws as they come in. Actually, UK civil servants are very good at

:27:51.:27:53.

getting what they wanted those negotiations. I think it is a

:27:54.:27:56.

misunderstanding to say somehow these things are done to us. There's

:27:57.:28:00.

not a separate of Brussels bureaucrat that we are not a part

:28:01.:28:05.

of. Peter has made that point. The second thing, I can honestly say in

:28:06.:28:09.

my time in the civil service, the EE you played a very small part in the

:28:10.:28:12.

policies I saw coming across my desk. -- the EU played. That might

:28:13.:28:17.

have been a reflection of the fact I worked in departments like the

:28:18.:28:21.

Department of Health for the last two years of my time in the civil

:28:22.:28:24.

service, after the coalition came in. The NHS reforms that we worked

:28:25.:28:29.

on for years, that were very messy going through Parliament, had very

:28:30.:28:33.

little, if anything to do with the EU. Mike spirit would have been the

:28:34.:28:37.

same in the Department for Education, I think. I think it's

:28:38.:28:40.

important as well that people realise it is not true that

:28:41.:28:44.

absolutely everything is controlled by the EU. I'm not doubting that

:28:45.:28:49.

some things are. So would you put yourself somewhere between Chris

:28:50.:28:52.

Grayling and Peter Mandelson? Would you put yourself with Peter

:28:53.:28:56.

Mandelson or closer to Chris Grayling? I'm definitely closer to

:28:57.:29:01.

Peter. We influence the areas where the EU governance or influences our

:29:02.:29:05.

policy-making. But there are a huge number of policy areas where the EE

:29:06.:29:09.

you have three little influence over what we do. Marina Wheeler, you

:29:10.:29:13.

wrote a piece about one of the ways in which the EU and extending

:29:14.:29:18.

influence into the UK which is essentially judicial, through the

:29:19.:29:22.

courts. Often, in fact, taking more power than anyone thought they

:29:23.:29:26.

would. You should explain the point because it was quite an influential

:29:27.:29:31.

piece will stop it is certainly true that the issue here, when one is

:29:32.:29:35.

looking at power, is not just legislation, although I certainly

:29:36.:29:39.

agree that there is a great deal of legislation. But the other really

:29:40.:29:44.

important actor is the court. Certainly, with the legislation that

:29:45.:29:47.

exists and the powers that exist, the court does interpret that and

:29:48.:29:51.

often takes a very expansively you a bit. But my particular point that I

:29:52.:29:56.

wrote about was something that is another further leap forward, the

:29:57.:30:03.

Charter of fundamental rights. Now, the Charter, I'm giving a little bit

:30:04.:30:07.

of background, just to explain for everyone's benefit, the charter is

:30:08.:30:11.

very like the convention on human rights that comes from Strasbourg.

:30:12.:30:17.

But it is a Luxembourg and EU version. So we have two charters? We

:30:18.:30:23.

have a convention and the charter which becomes important. The charter

:30:24.:30:26.

is a bit broader than the convention. It was originally

:30:27.:30:30.

conceived as part of a constitutional treaty but rejected.

:30:31.:30:35.

It was repackaged and appeared at Lisbon. The important point about

:30:36.:30:42.

the charter is that it is now being used as a way of challenging

:30:43.:30:48.

domestic legislation and EU legislation. The important point is,

:30:49.:30:52.

with the principle of supremacy of EU law, it can set aside national

:30:53.:30:56.

law and national provision. Do you recognise the court has

:30:57.:31:12.

extending power. The reason you have the European Court of Justice is

:31:13.:31:18.

there has to be a body that arbitrates in times of disputes when

:31:19.:31:22.

there are different interpretations of the law, somebody has to give a

:31:23.:31:26.

judgment. The question is whether that panel of judges have extended

:31:27.:31:32.

EU law areas we would not have thought we were signing up to when

:31:33.:31:38.

we joined. Do not recognise that. I hear the claim and do not recognise

:31:39.:31:44.

the reality and I want a Europe that supports values. I want a Europe

:31:45.:31:49.

that supports human rights. I want a Europe that stands up for

:31:50.:31:53.

individuals, minorities and their freedom. I would like those values

:31:54.:32:00.

to be reflected in the decisions of the other European institutions. I

:32:01.:32:04.

believe in those values. What proportion of time when we end up in

:32:05.:32:09.

the European Court, the UK ends up on the winning side? Funny you

:32:10.:32:12.

should mention that but I have a list here. I knew you would ask

:32:13.:32:24.

this. I rather like the UK wins over the clearing houses. Benefits

:32:25.:32:37.

migration, a case we brought. British taxpayers win ruling against

:32:38.:32:44.

Her Majesty's revenue... We win some and we lose some, Chris, I am

:32:45.:32:52.

afraid. Can I ask... Sir Francis Jacobs, you were an Advocate General

:32:53.:32:56.

at backcourt. Have they extended judicial power? I think it is

:32:57.:33:04.

reasonable to take the view the Court of Justice has taken a broad

:33:05.:33:09.

view of the powers conferred on the European Union. I think this is not

:33:10.:33:15.

particularly surprising, it is something you would find in modern

:33:16.:33:19.

democracies, that the courts tend to take a broad view of rights and

:33:20.:33:24.

powers conferred by the Constitution, certainly to take a

:33:25.:33:28.

broader view of fundamental rights which is regarded as a basic value

:33:29.:33:35.

in Europe, and should be. Rightly so. There is a difference between a

:33:36.:33:41.

Supreme Court in the United States for example and European Court of

:33:42.:33:48.

Justice. This is not a democratic country in his court over a

:33:49.:33:51.

constant, a club of nations, is there a difference? I do not and

:33:52.:33:56.

there is such a difference now. We have the European Court of Human

:33:57.:34:00.

Rights which is developing the basic rights of individuals through

:34:01.:34:06.

Europe, a larger Europe than the EU and it is not surprising in the

:34:07.:34:12.

scope of EU law, and it is only where the court has jurisdiction

:34:13.:34:15.

within the scope of EU law, that fundamental rights should be

:34:16.:34:19.

protected by the court. We need to move on. We have dealt with the

:34:20.:34:24.

courts and certain issues. Well, in the referendum campaign,

:34:25.:34:26.

there has been an attempt to encapsulate the argument

:34:27.:34:28.

about sovereignty into a single number - the proportion of the laws

:34:29.:34:31.

that govern us in this country that Is it most of the law -

:34:32.:34:34.

or just a bit? It would be lovely to be

:34:35.:34:38.

definitive about this. We asked Queenie, a British bulldog,

:34:39.:34:40.

a national symbol no less, She got the BBC's legal affairs

:34:41.:34:42.

correspondent, Like a lot of British citizens,

:34:43.:34:45.

Queenie, this British Bulldog is confused about just how much UK

:34:46.:34:55.

law is in fact now EU law. The claims vary so massively,

:34:56.:34:58.

it is really difficult to get The organisation Business

:34:59.:35:06.

For Britain, which campaigns for Britain to leave the EU,

:35:07.:35:12.

says over 60% of UK law If you stack up the entire EU rule

:35:13.:35:16.

book, it would be higher than Nelson's Column,

:35:17.:35:24.

which is an incredible amount of paperwork for British businesses,

:35:25.:35:29.

employees, all people who have to comply with this legislation

:35:30.:35:32.

that they have to deal with. That is cost and time added

:35:33.:35:34.

to their businesses. Others are sceptical

:35:35.:35:37.

as to whether calculating a percentage of EU law

:35:38.:35:39.

tells us anything at all. The critical thing

:35:40.:35:42.

is to look at impact. If you look at percentages,

:35:43.:35:47.

you end up with the number of laws, directives and regulations,

:35:48.:35:50.

which tells you nothing For impact, you need

:35:51.:35:52.

to look at these sectors where the regulations

:35:53.:35:58.

and the laws are made. In some sectors, the impact

:35:59.:36:01.

will be absolutely minimal. Between 1993 and 2014,

:36:02.:36:07.

Parliament passed 945 Acts, of which 231 implemented EU

:36:08.:36:16.

obligations of some sort. It also passed 33,160

:36:17.:36:20.

Statutory Instruments, which flesh out how

:36:21.:36:22.

a statute will work. 4283 of them implemented

:36:23.:36:29.

EU obligations. Add both of these together

:36:30.:36:31.

and divide by the total number of laws passed,

:36:32.:36:36.

and 13% of our laws If you want to know about UK law,

:36:37.:36:38.

this is the place where every piece of UK legislation is stored,

:36:39.:36:47.

including this one. This is the 1972

:36:48.:36:51.

European Communities Act. This is it, the Act that took us

:36:52.:36:55.

into the European Economic This is the act that gives direct

:36:56.:37:02.

effect to EU law in the UK. That is what gives rise

:37:03.:37:06.

to that 13% figure. But that figure is not entirely

:37:07.:37:10.

accurate because most EU regulations don't need new laws like these

:37:11.:37:15.

to bring them into effect. Most can be brought into effect

:37:16.:37:18.

without the need for legislation. For instance, by simply changing

:37:19.:37:21.

administrative rules. So if you count all EU regulations,

:37:22.:37:27.

EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments,

:37:28.:37:32.

about 62% of laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 that apply

:37:33.:37:39.

in the UK implement EU obligations. Doing a simple count of laws is not

:37:40.:37:46.

really that useful. The Working Time Directive,

:37:47.:37:48.

which gives workers a minimum number of holidays and rest breaks,

:37:49.:37:51.

is pretty significant. The regulation classifying padded

:37:52.:37:55.

waistcoat in things like puffa But each counts as another EU law

:37:56.:37:59.

on the UK pile. As do EU-wide regulations governing

:38:00.:38:08.

the production of things like olive oil and tobacco,

:38:09.:38:11.

which we don't produce. If the UK votes to leave the EU,

:38:12.:38:15.

would we actually be We make cars and we want

:38:16.:38:17.

to sell them. We will have to make cars that

:38:18.:38:24.

comply with European rules. Whether we go down the Swiss model,

:38:25.:38:26.

the Norwegian model, the WT model or whatever,

:38:27.:38:29.

it is reality, not law. They will not accept our cars

:38:30.:38:32.

if they don't comply So Queenie, for a British

:38:33.:38:34.

bulldog like yourself, or a citizen like me who's been

:38:35.:38:42.

concerned about the issue, it is probably fair to say that EU

:38:43.:38:45.

law represents a significant part But to turn it into a

:38:46.:38:48.

numbers game? Come on,

:38:49.:38:51.

Queenie. Clive Coleman on the numbers,

:38:52.:38:54.

and how not to interpret them. before we move on can be agreed this

:38:55.:39:13.

numbers game, 13%, 62%, whatever it is, it is pointless. I would not

:39:14.:39:18.

argue in terms of numbers, the questions I would ask is in terms of

:39:19.:39:23.

impact, questions like if the EU brings forward a measure in

:39:24.:39:28.

financial services, North Sea oil, something similar, that will cost

:39:29.:39:32.

jobs in the UK, do we have the power to say we will not accept that? We

:39:33.:39:39.

don't. That is my problem. To be clear, you would not be going around

:39:40.:39:43.

saying, three quarters of laws come from Brussels? I don't put numbers

:39:44.:39:52.

on it. Peter Mandelson, do you agree, the 13% figure sometimes

:39:53.:39:56.

quoted by the Remain side is not helpful? I do not use the figures

:39:57.:40:02.

but I take issue with Chris, who talks about legislation, EU

:40:03.:40:08.

obligations, the terrible impact, as if it has been something done over

:40:09.:40:13.

which we have no influence. It is very fundamental. This is not

:40:14.:40:20.

legislation imposed on us, we are part of the legislative process and

:40:21.:40:24.

until Chris understands this he will not come to terms with the

:40:25.:40:28.

process... If he went to Brussels more often he might know and how it

:40:29.:40:36.

worked. I have been there more recently that you have, Peter. If

:40:37.:40:41.

the EU brings forward a measure that will cost jobs in the UK can we stop

:40:42.:40:48.

that happening? If we have been part of the less -- legislative process,

:40:49.:40:58.

if we have co-control with the European Parliament over what

:40:59.:41:01.

legislation goes through and we have been part of the legislation I

:41:02.:41:05.

accept we need to implement it, it is an obligation on us, but only

:41:06.:41:11.

because we have in a prior stage to its conclusion been part of its

:41:12.:41:20.

formulation. Sometimes we are outvoted. You have to accept the

:41:21.:41:25.

obvious, sometimes we are outvoted and you have to accept that as part

:41:26.:41:30.

of being a member. Which is why I want to leave. I think there is a

:41:31.:41:36.

different problem, which is often legislation that leaves the

:41:37.:41:40.

commission which has had a full impact assessment and is quite

:41:41.:41:46.

specific and people know it has to be contained, as it goes through the

:41:47.:41:50.

European Parliamentary process, it is often added to and made into a

:41:51.:41:55.

patchwork quilt and when it reaches the member states it is often

:41:56.:42:02.

extended, gold-plated, extended in coverage with the consequent impact

:42:03.:42:06.

on us at home, so it is not just Brussels and the European Commission

:42:07.:42:11.

it is the elected representatives in the European Parliament who also

:42:12.:42:16.

have a responsibility, but it is the member states whose job it is to

:42:17.:42:19.

contain the impact of legislation without any side effects.

:42:20.:42:22.

We've discussed how much power over our lives that we've lost

:42:23.:42:25.

But one of the main arguments for leaving is not about what we've

:42:26.:42:30.

lost, but what we might still lose in future, the fear of the EU

:42:31.:42:33.

Can I take it that is actually your deepest fear? It is important, we

:42:34.:42:50.

are not voting to stay in the EU as it is today, it will have to change

:42:51.:42:56.

and in order for the Euro to survive and we have seen the crisis,

:42:57.:43:00.

eurozone countries will have to do things in a harmonised way which

:43:01.:43:05.

they are saying so, talking about a eurozone Budget and Finance

:43:06.:43:08.

Minister, a greater social policy integration. We are talking about

:43:09.:43:14.

being on the fringes, one of only two member states not committed to

:43:15.:43:19.

being part of this, like being a 5% shareholder in a business where

:43:20.:43:25.

somebody else owns 95%. We will have no say as they take on the

:43:26.:43:29.

characteristics of an emerging United States of Europe. Peter

:43:30.:43:34.

Mandelson, can you give assurance that is not going to happen, we will

:43:35.:43:42.

not be on the edge of a big page? I think just because we have less

:43:43.:43:46.

influence because the eurozone is integrating as it is, does not mean

:43:47.:43:51.

we should draw the conclusion we should abandon all our influence and

:43:52.:43:56.

leave the European Union. The more substantive point is this and it is

:43:57.:44:01.

important for the future. In my judgment, we have seen the last two

:44:02.:44:08.

great political projects of the European Union. One is the single

:44:09.:44:13.

currency, of which we are not part and are not going to be, and

:44:14.:44:19.

secondly, the Schengen zone, the open borders, and why do I think

:44:20.:44:24.

they will be the last smack two reasons. First the public in Europe,

:44:25.:44:30.

not just in Britain, has no hunger for deepening the integration and

:44:31.:44:36.

constructing a further political project within the ambit of the EU

:44:37.:44:39.

and secondly the member states who control the European Union, it is an

:44:40.:44:47.

intergovernmental organisation essentially, would much prefer to

:44:48.:44:51.

see the European Union do better and take on... The responsibilities it

:44:52.:44:58.

has rather than broaden... I think the argument goes to make those

:44:59.:45:04.

projects work, to make your own work, they need to integrate they

:45:05.:45:11.

need fiscal union, political union, they need to be more like a country.

:45:12.:45:17.

You won't have France and Germany ceasing to be nation states because

:45:18.:45:23.

they are in the Eurozone. What is important, Evan, if I may say that

:45:24.:45:26.

we need to maximise our influence on what goes on in the Eurozone because

:45:27.:45:31.

its success or failure will directly affect us. That is very important.

:45:32.:45:37.

Let me bring in Robert. Do you see some trajectory, a sweep of history,

:45:38.:45:44.

if you like, that takes the Eurozone towards something closer to a nation

:45:45.:45:48.

state? How much does that worry you about the role of the UK on the edge

:45:49.:45:53.

of it? In a way it does but I don't see it in the same with either of

:45:54.:45:56.

your distinguished guests. Firstly, I don't think it would work, at

:45:57.:46:00.

least not in a democratic way. It is hard to see any sovereign body

:46:01.:46:04.

within the youth. If there were one, they would be able to solve the Euro

:46:05.:46:08.

crisis and the refugee crisis. It is clear that there's a gap in the

:46:09.:46:12.

middle, a void the centre of Europe. It seems that the member states are,

:46:13.:46:17.

as it were, losing sovereignty but there is no one taking it up and

:46:18.:46:21.

running Europe on our behalf. What we seem to be having, therefore, is

:46:22.:46:26.

a dysfunctional and probably unworkable system of very many

:46:27.:46:30.

nations which, if they are very lucky, might turn into something

:46:31.:46:33.

like the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which was able to be run by keeping

:46:34.:46:37.

everyone in an equal stake of unhappiness is one of its prime

:46:38.:46:40.

ministers said but it is difficult to see it working in an effective

:46:41.:46:43.

way. If things go wrong, and things do go wrong, there is no one who is

:46:44.:46:48.

a sovereign to make the final decision is binding on everyone. No

:46:49.:46:53.

one say, "Here are the refugees, this is the number you will have and

:46:54.:46:57.

this is the number you will have". No one can say that. That's not

:46:58.:47:01.

right, there's a European Council of member states who at the end of the

:47:02.:47:05.

day, calls the shots in the European Union. We all know that. The

:47:06.:47:10.

European Commission services it and implements and executes what the

:47:11.:47:13.

member states want. The European Parliament adds to it, quite

:47:14.:47:17.

rightly. The European Court of Justice will arbitrate when there

:47:18.:47:21.

are disputes or legal interpretations to be made. But at

:47:22.:47:25.

the end of the day, the European Union is owned by its member states

:47:26.:47:28.

including Britain. It is they who will call the shots and decide

:47:29.:47:34.

through their agreement how the refugee crisis or any other crisis

:47:35.:47:38.

is managed. They may not do it instantly. They may not do it

:47:39.:47:41.

perfectly bit silly end of the day, they will get there, with a little

:47:42.:47:45.

bit of give and take and compromise but that is what being in an

:47:46.:47:48.

organisation like the European Union is all about. Robert? As you said,

:47:49.:47:54.

we're not really in it, we are half out of it or three quarters. Who? We

:47:55.:48:00.

are not in the Eurozone and we are not in Schengen. We are full members

:48:01.:48:04.

of the European Union. We are full and equal members of the European

:48:05.:48:07.

Council and full and equal members of the European Parliament. We have

:48:08.:48:12.

our own personal the European Commission. And we have no control

:48:13.:48:16.

at the Eurozone policy, surely? Orange Mackreth we don't want to be

:48:17.:48:20.

in the Eurozone. But if the Eurozone, as you hope, becomes more

:48:21.:48:24.

successful, would you like us to join? No, we took a decision some

:48:25.:48:28.

time ago as the government to keep open the option of joining and then

:48:29.:48:33.

deciding not to and that position stands. We were right then and we

:48:34.:48:37.

are right now. I don't see the circumstances in which Britain is

:48:38.:48:40.

going to go into the single currency. Let's take a pause, there.

:48:41.:48:44.

We can come back to this in a moment.

:48:45.:48:45.

You have been listening as we talked about the power of the European

:48:46.:48:53.

Court and the number of laws and the kinds of control and examples of the

:48:54.:48:57.

kind of control that Brussels exerts and what we can do and what we can't

:48:58.:49:02.

do. Peter Mandelson has talked about how we do also shake those laws, we

:49:03.:49:05.

are not just passive victims of things being imposed on us. Any

:49:06.:49:09.

comments or thought as we listen to the compensation so far? I will pick

:49:10.:49:14.

on one of you if you don't put your hands up! Yes. It seems to me that

:49:15.:49:21.

there is a wish to engage with all of the other member states. It seems

:49:22.:49:27.

to me that we want to then try and exert some sort of control over them

:49:28.:49:34.

will stop but there does not seem to be anything that guarantees that we

:49:35.:49:40.

will have a degree of control. Know because we are only one vote. It is

:49:41.:49:44.

down to us and our future European members of Parliament to see how

:49:45.:49:49.

they perform. But some of the stuff that Chris said, I must say, scared

:49:50.:49:54.

me a bit. It was meant to. I think it is important. What did I say that

:49:55.:50:05.

was wrong or inaccurate? Any questions for the experts from the

:50:06.:50:11.

panel? Any others of you, Lewis? I have a question, in terms of us

:50:12.:50:14.

producing things like vehicles, cars, anything. Will it then become

:50:15.:50:19.

harder for us to go to the European markets if we do leave? That's a

:50:20.:50:25.

very good question for Chris Grayling. What is going to happen is

:50:26.:50:29.

we're going to try to be the single market if we leave, aren't we? And

:50:30.:50:32.

then we're going to sign up to all the things we talked about that you

:50:33.:50:37.

make like French road safety rules... We will seek to trade

:50:38.:50:40.

freely with the European Union and we will be able to do so because we

:50:41.:50:44.

buy far more from them than they do from us. Can you confirm that when

:50:45.:50:47.

we agree to go back into the Zingle or get the access to their markets,

:50:48.:50:54.

do you agree or not that we will have to reinstate many of the things

:50:55.:50:57.

that you have said you don't like? -- when we agreed to go back into

:50:58.:51:02.

the single market. We loose country from that. Not within the UK. So

:51:03.:51:08.

different standards from the rest of Europe? If we sell things in the US,

:51:09.:51:11.

we have to meet their standards and the same with Japan. We would be

:51:12.:51:16.

able to, despite what Peter says, for example, to ban live animal

:51:17.:51:19.

transport which is not legal today and has not been -- illegal today

:51:20.:51:25.

and we have not been allowed to ban it because of EU rules. What about

:51:26.:51:31.

the 10% tariff that would be placed on car exports to the continent of

:51:32.:51:36.

Europe? 10%. What about the 28% on chemicals? What about the 11th cent

:51:37.:51:44.

and 13% on food and beverages? The point is that we buy far more from

:51:45.:51:48.

them than they do from us. Does anybody seriously believe that the

:51:49.:51:51.

German government is going to say to its car-makers, and the French

:51:52.:51:55.

government is going to say to its nasty bombers, who blocked the

:51:56.:51:58.

motorways when there is trouble, "We are going to stop you selling to the

:51:59.:52:01.

British or we are going to make it more expensive"? So you are willing

:52:02.:52:08.

to say we will ban the W X balls to the UK because you are not giving us

:52:09.:52:12.

access to your market? We are not going to ban exports and neither are

:52:13.:52:18.

they. Aren't they going to say, you are in the single market and you

:52:19.:52:22.

have to obey the rules, for example go on the lorry standards, the

:52:23.:52:26.

trucks that can drive on the roads? You can't be in the single market

:52:27.:52:29.

with a different set of rules. The very rules that you have talked

:52:30.:52:33.

about, to be in the single market on agriculture, there will be one rule

:52:34.:52:37.

for the transport of live animals, one rule for lorries which will get

:52:38.:52:40.

you the dangerous lorries that Boris wants to ban. That implies in North

:52:41.:52:45.

America as well, the North Americans have two B-cell their own lorries.

:52:46.:52:54.

This is our home market of 500 million people. We have a massive

:52:55.:52:57.

trade visit from them, we buy more from them than they do from us. If

:52:58.:53:02.

we bark on leaving the European Union, will we then embark on an

:53:03.:53:06.

elaborate negotiations to get ourselves back in the single market?

:53:07.:53:10.

We will have an agreement because it is invariant rest. So having voted

:53:11.:53:15.

to come out, we will embark on a prolonged negotiation to get

:53:16.:53:19.

ourselves back? Let's get into this with the economic expert. We are

:53:20.:53:23.

going to get to this in the economic programme. Chris Grayling, we will

:53:24.:53:27.

get to this all in the programme in a couple of weeks.

:53:28.:53:30.

In this discussion of sovereignty, we don't want to overlook British

:53:31.:53:32.

history and heritage, and the question of whether our

:53:33.:53:34.

We are taught about 1066 and all that, the fight

:53:35.:53:38.

for liberty, Magna Carta, and all that it is to be British.

:53:39.:53:44.

# Magna Carta. # Magna Carta?

:53:45.:53:46.

# He's got to be subject to law # Left to Henry III

:53:47.:53:59.

and Edward I to pass it through. # Since 1215, Magna Carta's been #

:54:00.:54:07.

The foundation of our democracy. Horrible Histories' take

:54:08.:54:15.

on Magna Carta, and the founding of a British political culture that

:54:16.:54:17.

still resonates today. We're joined again by our panel,

:54:18.:54:23.

with the constitutional historian Vernon Bogdanor replacing

:54:24.:54:26.

Sir Francis Jacobs I want to put to the panel of

:54:27.:54:39.

voters, I want you to shut your eyes and say to yourself the word, "We".

:54:40.:54:46.

We heard one of the speakers in an earlier video saying when you shut

:54:47.:54:51.

your eyes and think of, "Weak", you have a particular community in mind.

:54:52.:54:57.

How many of you were thinking, "We British", when you did that? And how

:54:58.:55:05.

many were thinking, "We Europeans"? Really? Is that because we are

:55:06.:55:10.

having a conversation about it? I think it probably is because we are

:55:11.:55:14.

having a compensation about it. Today, I am feeling a sense of

:55:15.:55:18.

wanting to be a part of something bigger, for some reason, being here

:55:19.:55:24.

today. Very interesting. Robert, you have written quite a lot about

:55:25.:55:29.

British history. Do you think that British culture, political culture

:55:30.:55:32.

struggles to fit with the European one? If it does, that would make

:55:33.:55:39.

sovereignty harder to swallow? It clearly does because we have always

:55:40.:55:43.

had a different view of the European project than most of our partners

:55:44.:55:47.

have. I think the reasons are pretty simple and they don't go back all

:55:48.:55:51.

that far. We have rather less to be worried about. If you think of the

:55:52.:55:55.

history of Europe in the last century, it is one that for many of

:55:56.:56:00.

our neighbours has been a history of wars, civil wars and dictatorships

:56:01.:56:03.

and foreign occupation and so on. For them, the U is an escape from

:56:04.:56:07.

the nightmare of the last hundred years. It is not really the same

:56:08.:56:15.

forest. -- the EU. Whether it is good or bad, we are not willing to

:56:16.:56:18.

make the same kind of sacrifices to stay in the project that many

:56:19.:56:20.

countries like Greece are. Vernon Bogdanor, do you think there is a

:56:21.:56:24.

cultural misfit that makes pooling sovereignty with Europe difficult?

:56:25.:56:28.

There may be and we have often seen ourselves a separate from Europe but

:56:29.:56:32.

of course twice in the last century, the governments which wanted to

:56:33.:56:34.

isolate themselves from Europe found themselves forced into world wars

:56:35.:56:38.

because of events that happened in far-away parts of Europe. Neville

:56:39.:56:43.

Chamberlain spoke of jokers of actor as a far-away country of which we

:56:44.:56:47.

know nothing. I think the European project is very important for

:56:48.:56:49.

bringing together countries which previously fought each other.

:56:50.:56:53.

Everyone says that Germany and France will never fight each other

:56:54.:56:57.

again. I'm sure that's right but in the Balkans, we see ancient hatreds

:56:58.:57:01.

which are only kept together by the European Union and the possibility

:57:02.:57:06.

of entering it. A Europe that is broken up into national states might

:57:07.:57:10.

be very dangerous for us. We can't, whatever we think escape from what

:57:11.:57:13.

is happening on the continent. Therefore, there is an argument for

:57:14.:57:17.

saying we should be there to influence what is happening on the

:57:18.:57:20.

continent. I think this is an aspect which is often left out of the

:57:21.:57:24.

debate. Chris Grayling, I want to put this point to you. You said we

:57:25.:57:27.

will be a little thing on the edge of a big nation called Eurozone. Why

:57:28.:57:33.

does that mean we should come out? Why wouldn't you stay in to

:57:34.:57:37.

influence it as much as you can? You won't have influence over it if

:57:38.:57:41.

you're outside of it completely? Two things, the organisation that has

:57:42.:57:44.

kept the peace in Europe is Nato rather than the European Union, in

:57:45.:57:47.

my view, which has played an enormously important role in ending

:57:48.:57:52.

the divide which took root in Europe after the second model and help

:57:53.:57:55.

provide peace and prosperity and in the eastern Mediterranean today,

:57:56.:57:59.

Nato is dealing with the migrant crisis, not the European Union. In

:58:00.:58:03.

terms of our influence, what matters to me is the ability did event and

:58:04.:58:06.

look after our national interest. We have not spoken at all about

:58:07.:58:11.

migration to night... We are doing that in another programme. Or the

:58:12.:58:15.

issue of housing where we have huge pressure already, we are bringing in

:58:16.:58:18.

a population the size of Newcastle to the country every year and yet we

:58:19.:58:29.

have no power ourselves to set limits on the number of people who

:58:30.:58:32.

come and live and work here. It's not about closing the door

:58:33.:58:34.

altogether but we can't even set limits as part of the European

:58:35.:58:37.

Union. It is an example where we cannot take a decision in our

:58:38.:58:39.

national interest and I think we should be an independent nation able

:58:40.:58:42.

to do that. Chris Grayling, thank you.

:58:43.:58:42.

I want to give the last word to the panel. What has been the most

:58:43.:58:47.

important thing you have heard the night, the thing that has weighed

:58:48.:58:53.

most heavily? I liked the historian Feller, sorry, I forgot your name!

:58:54.:58:59.

He said the EU was set up to stop warring nations fighting each other,

:59:00.:59:03.

keep them on the same side. I'm Irish and I feel more European. I

:59:04.:59:07.

think there's a place for closer integration with these countries. It

:59:08.:59:12.

has brought travel, opened up many people's eyes in the world. Most of

:59:13.:59:16.

you said you did not think some entry was as important as the

:59:17.:59:20.

economy. How many of you still think the economy is more important than

:59:21.:59:24.

sovereignty? We've had a debate on sovereignty but how many of you

:59:25.:59:26.

think the economy is the more important issue? My goodness! Any

:59:27.:59:35.

more final points from the panel? I think when Lord Mandelson said that

:59:36.:59:39.

you know, it is give and take within this union, I think that is a very

:59:40.:59:46.

valid point, to state that if you are part of the union, Europe, you

:59:47.:59:52.

have to take, some you win and some you lose. Basically, I agree with

:59:53.:59:57.

that. We need to leave it there. Everybody gets squeezed in these

:59:58.:59:59.

mammoth Our live blog page is still filing

:00:00.:59:59.

material, for another half hour Sovereignty is a strangely

:00:00.:00:05.

abstract word for an issue that is all

:00:06.:00:10.

about power and control. I hope you have found much of what

:00:11.:00:21.

you have heard useful. In seven days' time, we will be discussing

:00:22.:00:24.

security but that is all from us tonight.

:00:25.:00:34.

Hello. We will continue to see some very big differences in the weather

:00:35.:00:42.

across the UK on Tuesday. The more persistent rain is going to be

:00:43.:00:43.

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