19/04/2016 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

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We are fighting to be a hostage, locked in the boot


of a car, driven by others to a place and at a place


That's his take if we stay in, but what does Michael Gove think


Was it real life or just Project Fantasy?


The former boss of the World Trade Organisation


The notion that you exit the EU trade wise at no


We will put that to Brexit supporter and former


Lily Allen had spent seven years been stalked by a man who had


approached her on-line when she woke to find him standing


I could see from the minute that he came into my


bedroom that he was ill and that he needed help.


I wanted to help him, I felt immediately like something


And I feel like he has been let down. I have been let down. And how


many other people are being let down? We will discuss why had --


wider has been a rise in stalking and whether police are doing enough.


You make fun of us Germans liking David Hasselhoff and we mainly like


two things. One is David Hasselhoff. And the German comedian facing


criminal proceedings in Germany for a poem criticising the Turkish


President. We will discuss. This wasn't a speech


about a British Exit, this was - in Michael Gove's own words -


a speech about the democratic Today, the Justice Secretary


answered his critics on the Remain side who defied him to find a vision


for what this country would look Michael Gove argued that Britain


would remain in the free trade zone - like Bosnia,


like Serbia, like Albania - It would not, he insisted,


be governed by its rules And crucially, he argued,


it would save the UK billions in the form of ever-rising


costs of EU membership. We'll talk to the former head


of the World Trade Today, Michael Gove revealed


elements of his case for Brexit and he threw scorn on the campaign for


remain macro. If you vote to stay, we are not settling for the status


quo, we voting to be a hostage locked in the boot of a car, driven


by others to an and at a place that we have no control over. And in


contrast, if we vote to leave, we take back the control. One thing to


-- the Justice Secretary set out was how post-Brexit would relate to the


European Union. For example, what would his plan mean for one of the


most delicious industries, cheese? Because we are EU members who follow


the rules and regulations and we do not quit much subsidy to farmers,


our farmers can sell for example that she is across the EU without


facing tariffs on nontariff barriers. But what would happen if


we left? Imagine you were a farmer trying to sell this stilton. If we


have a deal like Switzerland, not much would change, we would follow


roughly the same rules and regulations and you would be able to


sell your cheese across Europe without facing tariffs. If we went


to the other extreme and we got rid of all the rules and regulations and


we increased the subsidies, we might face a different regime. Farmers


might have to fill in forms showing how healthy their cattle were, they


might have to apply to import licences for a block of cheese


roughly the size, they would face tariffs between 25 and 50p depending


on how much cheese other people had already sold the E -- to the EU. The


plans are neither of those extremes but a bespoke deal. He says we can


argue to get rid of the red tape and get good EU market access. There is


a free trade Zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European


nations have access to regardless of whether they are in or out of Europe


or EU. After voting to leave, we will remain in the zone, the


suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would remain


part of this free trade area and Britain would be on the outside with


just Belarus is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining the


Ukip. Remain campaign is to use what they have called the Albanian market


and they argue not of those countries have the deal Mr Gove


wants. It is absurd to suggest our EU partners if we were to leave


would give us the deal they do not have themselves. So they would give


free access to the single market which they currently pay into the B


members of, with us not having paid a fee. Why would they do do a deal


for others which they as members of the European Union have not done for


themselves? If we became a more deregulated state, we would probably


face trade barriers compared to now, tariffs on nontariff barriers. We


should not do because of course those European firms, they sell 68


billion bounce more than we sell to them so that is a mutual interest in


staying strong trade partners and stronger interests for those French,


German, Italian exporters not to see export barriers going up so the


scaremongering from the Remain campaign does not stand up to


serious scrutiny. One of the questioned by Mr Gove was what sort


of Britain he would like to have after Brexit and the answer was a


free trading and buccaneering nation. He said they would still


like to subsidise farmers and cut tariffs and subsidies and red tape.


This expert is from a think tank close to the Prime Minister's


thinking. There were mixed messages in terms of Mr Gove's speech, he


talked about free trade agreements with emerging Marcus and still


protecting farmers. It is not clear how open they will be but if they do


not take on the farming lobby, you have to ask if they will take on the


car industry and social employment law and the trade unions and how


much they willing to open up and deregulate. Would you become to ball


in a world where we dropped tariffs. And for cars as part of our rear


balancing to a new model of economy? -- we balancing. You have to look at


the overall picture but if we stay straight in -- stay trading partners


with the EU, freed up to trade more energetically with Asia, it is


better for sustainable jobs of the future. Today's speech was


contentious, setting out a plan for a Liberal tariff which trading


state, but the heat for now is around Mr Gove's belief we can cut


red tape and hold EU market access and cut deals with the rest of the


world. A disputed claim, to say the least.


So how would this new trade deal for the UK be put into practice?


I asked Pascal Lamy, former head of the World Trade


Organization, who's spent hours on these kind of negotiations,


If you are part of the European Union, you belong


to the European single market, which means that you have


free access to the whole of the 500 million consumers,


plus countries outside Europe, for which the European Union has


negotiated privileged access, for the price that they're getting,


So if you're in, that's the privileges you have.


If you're out, you lose these privileges.


You lose your preferred access to the European market,


which is roughly 50% of UK trade, and you lose the privileged


access to Canada, Mexico and a series of other countries,


which is probably 15% more of UK trade.


So you lose the privileged access you have, the free trade you have,


You export less, you produce less, you have less trade,


But that's the history, if you like.


Just because a deal is unprecedented doesn't mean it's not possible.


The UK could still trade with the European states free


of tariff and nontariff barriers, but without committing to those full


That's a world of trade, if I may, which is paradise,


But we all know that in the world of trade -


yesterday, today, tomorrow - you don't get free access, free.


You get free access for a price, which is - I give you access


to my market, you give me access to your market.


I'm not going to give you access to my market if you don't give me


This is something that will never work, you know,


Trade negotiations are tough, which, by the way, is one of the reasons


Now, what would the UK have to give to the 27 other syndicates


of Brexit, or to Mexico, Canada, Japan and India?


The UK would give some access, assuming it reduces its existing


market access, which amounts to a 50/60 million consumers market.


You don't get for a 50 million consumer market


So you are saying, bluntly, no free-trade without


Does that also mean that we would have to be covered


We have a European economic space with countries like Norway,


And that's something that you cannot hide to the British public,


the notion that you can exit and keep the benefits that you have


And I'm limiting my comments to trade, which is the part I know.


Would you go so far as the French Economy Minister,


Emmanuel Macron, did at the weekend, to say Britain would be completely


killed in trade talks if the country chose to leave?


I think any serious people, knowing what's happening in trade


on this planet today, knows that the UK has a formidable


asset for the moment which has benefited a lot of economies


and that losing this asset would have a price.


Look, the notion that you exit the EU trade-wise at no


David Owen, the former Foreign Secretary and Brexit and Payne joins


me now. Does the Gove vision where we are part of some large Free Trade


Zone but not of the single market tally with your own vision for


Brexit? Yes, I buy into it completely. There is a choice for


this country now and it is very difficult and there are arguments on


both sides but the fundamental issue is, where is the biggest risk? I


think the biggest risk is a collapse in the Eurozone. People say we are


not in the Euro and people who want to go into the Euro those people but


it will not help. Look what happened to Greece. Rees could default. We


could have problems in Italy. We could have problems in Spain. If you


see six or seven countries running into a serious crisis, the Eurozone


is in crisis and it has been there for six years, the Americans spend


all their time trying to get them to change. For me, the question is, can


you get out of the EU before you get a Eurozone collapse? That Gove


vision specifically today is not just optimistic, it is part of the


Free Trade Zone but not of the single market, and we just heard


from the World Trade Organisation chief negotiator who has been doing


the years of this kind of thing who said it is pie in the sky and it is


a lie. Frankly, he doesn't believe it. Well, the issue is, what is this


referendum about? We in the campaign trying to persuade people to have


the courage to leave, we are not going to be doing the negotiations,


that is going to be the Conservative government for the next four years.


We have transitional arrangements in the treaty which anticipates


somebody might be able to leave. You can't say it is down to the


Conservative government to make it work when we are trying to get


people to understand. They gave us the referendum. You make it sound


like you want it to fail. No, I do not believe it will fail. I am


saying that many options which the government faces. I think it was


right for Michael Gove to choose the one that nobody can stop us using.


We can only build on, which is a WTO.


When you say no one can stop us using that, you just heard that if


you want free trade, you have to accept the world. Michael Gove says


in his version that does not happen. There are various tariffs and some


of them are not very helpful to us, or to our partners in the EU, such


as the rather high tax on cars. And you negotiate that. We are helped by


a position... With whom would you negotiate that? With Germany itself?


Up with the whole of the EU? Germany sells arts a lot of cars and we are


not going to be able to suddenly switch off, so what would they want?


They are looking to expand exports, they are not going to cut us off.


This depends on a benevolent view of Germany towards the UK. I have


negotiated trade arrangements in the old days of the Soviet Union. We


make deals with people who can be very hostile to you because it is


done on the basis of mutual interest. A trade deal is a deal,


and the basic thing is have you got something to sell, you got something


to buy? It is a balance of that. The balance is in our favour. The


balance comes down to who needs what most. Trade with Europe represents


12% of our GDP but EU trade with us is just 3% of players. So


collectively, we need the EU more than they individually need us. You


are turning the statistics round of the wrong way. There are two


statistics you have given. The powerful one is, in which of the big


countries selling large amounts to the UK will be very affected by our


sleeping. They are Germany and France and other countries like the


Netherlands. Let's be clear. The other thing... Let's go back to


this. Read me say one more fact. Since 2002, we have shifted away 10%


of our trade from the EU. The EU is stagnating and there is a currency


crisis. Let's go back to the idea of trade. In Mr Gove's vision, the idea


that France and Germany, probably pretty upset with a Brexit, would


suddenly turn around and say, it is fine and you can have what you want,


and we not worried. They will not say that. They are going to


negotiate what they can give and we can give. Andy Willmott worry about


what message that sends out for any other country thinking they could


leave, too, and break up the EU? You heard Michael Gove's comment. This


is about the democratisation of the comment two continent, that is his


goal. We are all living in a European space, the members of many


organisations, including Nato. One of the advantages of going out of


the EU is that we can pay more attention to that. And we will need


to, given American attitudes. The issue is, do you want to stay in the


ewe or not? If that decision is taken, it comes to the government to


look at these different options. They are trying to put us in a box.


If you say you were looking at the UDA, they say that means you are


accepting the freedom of movement of labour and you are accepting that


you have no vote on arrangements and you are accepting a solution like


Norway. The fact of the matter is that under the circumstances where


we are negotiating, they may be more open-minded. So there is another


question. When you see an end of freedom of movement is central to


this, a lot of people look at you and say that you are a liberal, and


perhaps you come at this from a different perspective. I do, no


doubt. I have spent the last four years trying to get the European


Union to reform, to make it possible for the EEA to be the basis of a new


Europe. And logically, they refuse. Cameron's negotiation, that showed


that they could not change it. Now we have a choice. If we should come


out, as I believe we should, we go into a period, probably, we should


not rush into it but we start to take steps to bring back the


communities legislation which we passed in 1972. We will consider our


place and then we will look at all the options. Look at what is


happening in America, what will happen to the north Atlantic free


trade area, if we have a President Trump. This world is much more


uncertain. On that note, we leave it there. Thank you for coming in.


In an exclusive television interview, the singer Lily Allen has


told Newsnight she feels "victim shamed" by The Metropolitan Police.


On Sunday, she told The Observer that she felt let down and dismissed


as a nuisance by police over her repeated reports


Alex Gray has a history of psychiatric


problems and was known to the police, was finally convicted


this month, seven years after he first threatened her.


It was only when he broke into her house and confronted


her in her bedroom, and then stole her bag,


that the police caught him and charged him burglary and harassment.


That charges didn't, to her dismay, include stalking.


In response to her comments, a senior officer at the Met


emailed her, warning that her telling of the story could deter


Lily Allen spoke to Kirsty earlier today about her support


for a National Register of Serial Stalkers.


But first, she talked about the eight-year ordeal,


The interview contains strong language.


I was lying in bed and I could see the door handle moving. And then he


steams in and he starts screaming and shouting, where is my dad, what


have you done with my dad, you bitch. At which point, I was in


shock. I didn't know who this person was. I was concerned for him because


I could see that he was really agitated and upset. But it was very


focused on me. And he was very close to you, as close as we are. Yes. I


recoiled back into my bed, and he ripped the duvet off. I jumped out


of bed at that point and ran to the other side of the room. And he kept


shouting at me, but he was very focused and it was really confusing


because it was loud and aggressive and was lots of gesticulating going


on. And he had something under his jumper. He didn't seem as the same


person in the photograph, necessarily? Not at all. The


photograph, I cannot even visualise it. It was five years ago, and I saw


it for 30 seconds. It transpired that on the ninth of torpor, he had


sent an e-mail to his mother saying that he was in London and he had


come into some money, probably from my handbag, and that was determined


to murder a celebrity. The police did not tell me that. And I was


living in the same flat. On my own. Albeit with a security guard. Then


on the 11th, I think, I was DJing at an event and I came home at about


1.00am to find the handbag that had been stolen on the bonnet of my car,


burnt out, at which point I called the police. And the police came over


and I think that it was the next day that they installed CCTV on the


outside of my house. And then a day after that, he was arrested.


And what happened in court? He was brought up from the cells, and he


came in. He immediately made eye contact with me. He started shouting


at me in court. When the judge said, why should I grant you bail today,


he said because the world would be a better place without her and that is


what I am here to do. There was nobody from the police and courts


that morning so even though I have witnessed this, the police had not.


Nobody was writing this down in order to notify the CBS that he was


continuing to threaten me. There was a charge of burglary and harassment.


But now stalking charge? No. It did not seem like they were interested


in making that case. After I made evidence, I was taken into a room


and told by the CPS that in his interview, he said that he was going


to put a knife through my face. And in that interview, part of which was


played in court, what did the police say? They said they were going to


end the interview there. Until this happened to you, have you any idea


of the extent of the problem with stocking? I had no idea the extent.


As far as I am aware, it is 700,000 reported cases, 1% of which end up


with a prosecution. That is why I have teamed up with the Women's


Equality Party and Paladin, the charity associated with stalking, to


lobby for this serial wood register. There are not many people in this


country who have the resources to move house, take on a security


guard. And a legal team, to push the CPS and the police. I feel very


thankful that I have those resources but it makes me very worried about


other women and men in this situation.


"Due to the high profile of this matter I fear other victims


of similar crimes may have read the story and now may


not have the confidence to report such matters.


As such, it is really important that I can understand what, if anything,


I was saddened to hear of this report and I would like to hear your


I think it is victim shaming and victim blaming.


But you know he will be sentenced now and that must bring some relief?


It does bring me some relief if he is sentenced and dealt with as a


mentally ill person. Because if he is not, I am not safe and my


children are not safe. I am not in the slightest bit angry with Alex


Gray. I could see from the minute that he came into my bedroom that he


was ill and that he needed help. I wanted to help him,


I felt immediately like something And I feel like, you know,


he has been let down. And how many other people


have been let down? Lily Allen's stalker is due to be


sentenced next month and she is in touch with the Independent and


please -- Independent Police Complaints Commission.


Joining me now from Manchester is National Police Chiefs'


Council Lead for Stalking and Harassment, Assistant Chief


Constable Garry Shewan, of the Greater Manchester Police.


And here in the studio with me is one of the London Mayoral


candidates and leader of the Women's Equality Party,


As you heard, they have teamed up with Lily Allen on this matter.


Garry Shewan, that interview seems to raise some astonishing issues.


There is something weird about a victim saying that she felt she was


victim shamed, made to feel embarrassed by the police calling


her out when she complained. How do you make sense of that? It is clear


that what she insured must have been incredibly frightening. It is not


just celebrities who get stopped. Every week, thousands of victims


across the country, men and women, are subject to this frightening


behaviour that does not seem to stop. It really tears them apart.


And we have to do something about this. As a police service, as a


criminal justice system, we have to listen to people like Lily Allen and


move forward and learn. Hearing her story is really important. We have


to be able to say to people across the country, that is an incredibly


frightening experience and we need to do more and more every week now


to ensure that we safeguard victims. She felt like she had been told off.


When she spoke out and said, I don't think the police came to my rescue


on this one, she got an e-mail saying don't deter other people from


coming forward. Was that the right call for the Metropolitan police to


make? I think we have the last victims, and sadly only one in four


victims of stalking ever report their experience to police. Clearly


people like Lily Allen who do not report put themselves in danger and


we cannot assist them. Do you think the Metropolitan Police fails in


this case? Listening to Lily Allen, clearly she feels let down and I do


not know the circumstances of the investigation but she feels let


down. We have to reach out to the victims and say, please believe us,


we treat stalking very seriously and we have to encourage more people to


come for bird. Too many people suffer for too long with this


obsessive behaviour and we need to support them. -- come forward. I


would encourage police forces around the country that this is an


important story to listen to and yes, we prosecute more and more


people, in the last two years we have successfully prosecuted 77%


more cases of stalking than ever before. But that comes down to 1%.


Is that right, 700,000 men and women are stalked and 1% convicted? I


think what is really interesting here is during Gary talk about how


few women report, because they feared this response, that it will


not be taken seriously. But that figure, 700,000, that is like 2000 a


day? The data is very poor. I don't think it is wrong but I think it


could be much worse. We know that most women only come forward after


their 100th incident. So the scale of the issue is huge. And what is


good about the situation is that we have a stalking law that was


introduced in 2012, and we have an agreed approach between Akpom and


the CPS agreed in 2014. That is very basic and very necessary, such as


referring victims to support services and making sure there is a


single point of contact, taking a serious forensic approach from the


get go. None of these things happened in Lily Allen's case.


The law was introduced in 2012, the statistics speak for themselves,


700,000 people stalked, but the police were only interested in the


burglary in Lily's case and not the stalking. So an acceptance it is on


the rise but a failure on an individual level to take seriously.


700,000 in the British crime survey is people saying they have


experienced stalking, not reported. They have experienced it. Every


year, thousands of people are prosecuted under harassment and


stalking laws which are the same statute. Stalking is far more


serious and the penalty is more important. We have to get police


officers and the CPS to recognise where there is stalking involved, we


must charge with stalking. Too many stalkers get charged with harassment


offences. And a stalking register, as we would have full sex offenders,


is it important since stalking is illegal for there to be a register


of people on it? There are a lot of things we can do and in 2016, we


will see a great deal of activity. We want to see a stalking register


and there will be new guidance for investigating and people can capture


the evidence for the police service on their telephones which is really


important. And also, we have just Anish consultation with the Home


Office on the introduction of a stalking order -- we have just


finished. To put controls on perpetrators from the moment it is


reported. This is vital to combat it and keep people safe. The Women's


Equality Party is doing this work with Lily and Paladin because it is


important stalking is recognised but people are not recognising stalking


and a key part of this campaign is to ringfence funding for special


support groups who can use that expertise to train the police. What


is happening is that it is separate incidents being recorded rather than


seeing the full pattern. And on top of that, it is really important that


is understood so hopefully when we move to a register of serial


stalkers, people can recognise that pattern. Thank you, both.


If you've been affected by any of the issues that


we've discussed tonight, you can contact Paladin, the


You have probably heard the one about the boat, the Turkish


President and the antiquated law! -- goat.


The fine line between great satire and mindless offence is one


that is often tested - but a transgression doesn't


often cause fully fledged diplomatic incidents.


often cause fully fledged diplomatic incident.


Not so the German satirist Jan Bohmermann's song about


the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.


It alleged the President was a fan of beast reality, among other


things. -- beast reality. Mr Boehmermann is now under police


protection and Angela Merkel's government has approved a criminal


inquiry, under a little-used law concerning insults


against foreign heads of state. It begs questions about free speech,


German-Turkish relations, and more. The poem by a controversial


German satirist has won Accusing the Turkish President


of bestiality, among other things. But it has become a major


international incident. To be fair, the comedian explicitly


mentioned an obscure German law Paragraph 103 of Germany's Penal


Code states, whosoever insults a foreign Head of State shall be


liable to imprisonment, not Over 1,500 people have been


prosecuted in Turkey He's been accused of cracking


down on press freedom. But he has defended his


attitude to satire. I must put it in very fine terms,


we shouldn't confuse criticism With the refugee crisis in Europe


top of the agenda and Turkey seen as key to solving it,


the German Chancellor may have felt obliged to accept Erdogan's demand


for the comedian to be investigated. President Erdogan is taking


advantage of Merkel's desperation to stem the flow


of Syrian migrants into continental Europe and therefore he puts


pressure on her to open a criminal investigation against


the German satirist. You make fun of us Germans liking


David Hasselhoff... But Merkel is now facing


accusations in Germany she has The great Public Intellectual


Michael Ignatief - former leader of Canada's liberal


party - joins us now from Harvard. I said, what choice does Angela


Merkel have but to allow the prosecution? She could have said


respectively to Mr Erdogan... Prosecuting a German national


satirist for an insult to you is And you should not


seek satisfaction in If you are offended, with respect,


Mr Erdogan, it's your problem. There is a line, between satire and


offence. And when you talk to Turkish journalists and they said


this bordered on Islamophobia, it becomes a slightly different


question. Come on, I think satire is not satire on less it is offensive.


Of course this stuff is offensive. That is what satire is. The real


issue is that Erdogan wanted to send a message to the Turkish population


in Germany that he could put a free-speech chill on them and he


wants to put a free-speech chill on all his journalists in Turkey.


Especially at this time in Europe. A lot has been read into this. Do you


see it as the beginning of the end of Western European values, as some


others have suggested? I do not think, -- I do not think Westerns of


lies Asian is at the right, I do not think free-speech is at threat.


Brash Western civilisation. I hope the Germans will abolish the law


that makes it possible for a Head of State to urge prosecution when they


feel insulted. The other issue that will come more into the foreground


is people will realise Erdogan is a bad guy. That this regime started


reading Turkey towards democracy. There is tremendous support for


democracy in Turkey, it is hugely important that Turkey is showing


democracy can work, as an Islamic State. This guy is walking them


back. Angela Merkel says she will abolish this law, what does this


suggest between a feature relationship between Germany and


Turkey? I think that is where a lot of Europeans are very concerned.


What is the price we have paid in terms of freedom of speech, in terms


of free Visa access for Turks into Europe? What price are we paying for


the price of this refugee deal is the mark and the people who defend


the refugee Convention and human rights, they are very concerned


about the terms of the deal and whether it denies Syrian refugees


the protections that refugee laws are supposed to provide for them. So


I think everybody is looking at this incident with a sour -- with a


satirist and asking a lot of questions about whether the price


Europe has paid for a refugee deal has been simply too high. Do you


think this will cost her politically, is this where people


say that the rot has set in, and you are too keen to accommodate a


country that is on the outside? What Merkel is saying to her Republic is,


we do not need to solve this refugee problem with barbed wire. I can get


a deal with the Turks that makes it a safe third country and take a


diminished number of Syrians into the country and therefore maintain


German consent for a generous refugee policy, without having to go


barbed wire like barbarians have done. -- like the hungry and saw.


She is on increasingly thin ice with the German public and this incident,


she comes out looking weak and weakness is fatal in politics. Thank


you very much. A pleasure. That is all we have time


for but Evan is here tomorrow, good night.


Good evening. A lovely spring day today, more sunshine on the way


tomorrow. A chilly start in the Northern half of the UK and a touch


of frost in the countryside.


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