19/04/2016 Newsnight


19/04/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 19/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

We are fighting to be a hostage, locked in the boot

:00:10.:00:12.

of a car, driven by others to a place and at a place

:00:13.:00:15.

That's his take if we stay in, but what does Michael Gove think

:00:16.:00:19.

Was it real life or just Project Fantasy?

:00:20.:00:28.

The former boss of the World Trade Organisation

:00:29.:00:29.

The notion that you exit the EU trade wise at no

:00:30.:00:33.

We will put that to Brexit supporter and former

:00:34.:00:41.

Lily Allen had spent seven years been stalked by a man who had

:00:42.:00:48.

approached her on-line when she woke to find him standing

:00:49.:00:53.

I could see from the minute that he came into my

:00:54.:00:57.

bedroom that he was ill and that he needed help.

:00:58.:00:59.

I wanted to help him, I felt immediately like something

:01:00.:01:02.

And I feel like he has been let down. I have been let down. And how

:01:03.:01:19.

many other people are being let down? We will discuss why had --

:01:20.:01:23.

wider has been a rise in stalking and whether police are doing enough.

:01:24.:01:29.

You make fun of us Germans liking David Hasselhoff and we mainly like

:01:30.:01:34.

two things. One is David Hasselhoff. And the German comedian facing

:01:35.:01:38.

criminal proceedings in Germany for a poem criticising the Turkish

:01:39.:01:41.

President. We will discuss. This wasn't a speech

:01:42.:01:45.

about a British Exit, this was - in Michael Gove's own words -

:01:46.:01:50.

a speech about the democratic Today, the Justice Secretary

:01:51.:01:53.

answered his critics on the Remain side who defied him to find a vision

:01:54.:02:00.

for what this country would look Michael Gove argued that Britain

:02:01.:02:03.

would remain in the free trade zone - like Bosnia,

:02:04.:02:07.

like Serbia, like Albania - It would not, he insisted,

:02:08.:02:09.

be governed by its rules And crucially, he argued,

:02:10.:02:15.

it would save the UK billions in the form of ever-rising

:02:16.:02:26.

costs of EU membership. We'll talk to the former head

:02:27.:02:28.

of the World Trade Today, Michael Gove revealed

:02:29.:02:43.

elements of his case for Brexit and he threw scorn on the campaign for

:02:44.:02:48.

remain macro. If you vote to stay, we are not settling for the status

:02:49.:02:52.

quo, we voting to be a hostage locked in the boot of a car, driven

:02:53.:02:56.

by others to an and at a place that we have no control over. And in

:02:57.:03:02.

contrast, if we vote to leave, we take back the control. One thing to

:03:03.:03:10.

-- the Justice Secretary set out was how post-Brexit would relate to the

:03:11.:03:13.

European Union. For example, what would his plan mean for one of the

:03:14.:03:18.

most delicious industries, cheese? Because we are EU members who follow

:03:19.:03:21.

the rules and regulations and we do not quit much subsidy to farmers,

:03:22.:03:26.

our farmers can sell for example that she is across the EU without

:03:27.:03:31.

facing tariffs on nontariff barriers. But what would happen if

:03:32.:03:35.

we left? Imagine you were a farmer trying to sell this stilton. If we

:03:36.:03:40.

have a deal like Switzerland, not much would change, we would follow

:03:41.:03:42.

roughly the same rules and regulations and you would be able to

:03:43.:03:47.

sell your cheese across Europe without facing tariffs. If we went

:03:48.:03:51.

to the other extreme and we got rid of all the rules and regulations and

:03:52.:03:56.

we increased the subsidies, we might face a different regime. Farmers

:03:57.:03:59.

might have to fill in forms showing how healthy their cattle were, they

:04:00.:04:05.

might have to apply to import licences for a block of cheese

:04:06.:04:08.

roughly the size, they would face tariffs between 25 and 50p depending

:04:09.:04:13.

on how much cheese other people had already sold the E -- to the EU. The

:04:14.:04:19.

plans are neither of those extremes but a bespoke deal. He says we can

:04:20.:04:23.

argue to get rid of the red tape and get good EU market access. There is

:04:24.:04:28.

a free trade Zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European

:04:29.:04:32.

nations have access to regardless of whether they are in or out of Europe

:04:33.:04:37.

or EU. After voting to leave, we will remain in the zone, the

:04:38.:04:41.

suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would remain

:04:42.:04:45.

part of this free trade area and Britain would be on the outside with

:04:46.:04:51.

just Belarus is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining the

:04:52.:04:54.

Ukip. Remain campaign is to use what they have called the Albanian market

:04:55.:04:58.

and they argue not of those countries have the deal Mr Gove

:04:59.:05:04.

wants. It is absurd to suggest our EU partners if we were to leave

:05:05.:05:08.

would give us the deal they do not have themselves. So they would give

:05:09.:05:12.

free access to the single market which they currently pay into the B

:05:13.:05:17.

members of, with us not having paid a fee. Why would they do do a deal

:05:18.:05:23.

for others which they as members of the European Union have not done for

:05:24.:05:27.

themselves? If we became a more deregulated state, we would probably

:05:28.:05:32.

face trade barriers compared to now, tariffs on nontariff barriers. We

:05:33.:05:36.

should not do because of course those European firms, they sell 68

:05:37.:05:41.

billion bounce more than we sell to them so that is a mutual interest in

:05:42.:05:46.

staying strong trade partners and stronger interests for those French,

:05:47.:05:51.

German, Italian exporters not to see export barriers going up so the

:05:52.:05:55.

scaremongering from the Remain campaign does not stand up to

:05:56.:05:58.

serious scrutiny. One of the questioned by Mr Gove was what sort

:05:59.:06:03.

of Britain he would like to have after Brexit and the answer was a

:06:04.:06:07.

free trading and buccaneering nation. He said they would still

:06:08.:06:11.

like to subsidise farmers and cut tariffs and subsidies and red tape.

:06:12.:06:16.

This expert is from a think tank close to the Prime Minister's

:06:17.:06:20.

thinking. There were mixed messages in terms of Mr Gove's speech, he

:06:21.:06:25.

talked about free trade agreements with emerging Marcus and still

:06:26.:06:28.

protecting farmers. It is not clear how open they will be but if they do

:06:29.:06:33.

not take on the farming lobby, you have to ask if they will take on the

:06:34.:06:37.

car industry and social employment law and the trade unions and how

:06:38.:06:41.

much they willing to open up and deregulate. Would you become to ball

:06:42.:06:46.

in a world where we dropped tariffs. And for cars as part of our rear

:06:47.:06:54.

balancing to a new model of economy? -- we balancing. You have to look at

:06:55.:07:02.

the overall picture but if we stay straight in -- stay trading partners

:07:03.:07:06.

with the EU, freed up to trade more energetically with Asia, it is

:07:07.:07:09.

better for sustainable jobs of the future. Today's speech was

:07:10.:07:14.

contentious, setting out a plan for a Liberal tariff which trading

:07:15.:07:18.

state, but the heat for now is around Mr Gove's belief we can cut

:07:19.:07:23.

red tape and hold EU market access and cut deals with the rest of the

:07:24.:07:27.

world. A disputed claim, to say the least.

:07:28.:07:29.

So how would this new trade deal for the UK be put into practice?

:07:30.:07:32.

I asked Pascal Lamy, former head of the World Trade

:07:33.:07:34.

Organization, who's spent hours on these kind of negotiations,

:07:35.:07:37.

If you are part of the European Union, you belong

:07:38.:07:43.

to the European single market, which means that you have

:07:44.:07:46.

free access to the whole of the 500 million consumers,

:07:47.:07:49.

plus countries outside Europe, for which the European Union has

:07:50.:07:51.

negotiated privileged access, for the price that they're getting,

:07:52.:07:54.

So if you're in, that's the privileges you have.

:07:55.:08:11.

If you're out, you lose these privileges.

:08:12.:08:16.

You lose your preferred access to the European market,

:08:17.:08:19.

which is roughly 50% of UK trade, and you lose the privileged

:08:20.:08:22.

access to Canada, Mexico and a series of other countries,

:08:23.:08:25.

which is probably 15% more of UK trade.

:08:26.:08:33.

So you lose the privileged access you have, the free trade you have,

:08:34.:08:37.

You export less, you produce less, you have less trade,

:08:38.:08:44.

But that's the history, if you like.

:08:45.:08:53.

Just because a deal is unprecedented doesn't mean it's not possible.

:08:54.:09:00.

The UK could still trade with the European states free

:09:01.:09:02.

of tariff and nontariff barriers, but without committing to those full

:09:03.:09:05.

That's a world of trade, if I may, which is paradise,

:09:06.:09:11.

But we all know that in the world of trade -

:09:12.:09:23.

yesterday, today, tomorrow - you don't get free access, free.

:09:24.:09:25.

You get free access for a price, which is - I give you access

:09:26.:09:29.

to my market, you give me access to your market.

:09:30.:09:36.

I'm not going to give you access to my market if you don't give me

:09:37.:09:39.

This is something that will never work, you know,

:09:40.:09:42.

Trade negotiations are tough, which, by the way, is one of the reasons

:09:43.:09:52.

Now, what would the UK have to give to the 27 other syndicates

:09:53.:10:02.

of Brexit, or to Mexico, Canada, Japan and India?

:10:03.:10:07.

The UK would give some access, assuming it reduces its existing

:10:08.:10:10.

market access, which amounts to a 50/60 million consumers market.

:10:11.:10:18.

You don't get for a 50 million consumer market

:10:19.:10:20.

So you are saying, bluntly, no free-trade without

:10:21.:10:27.

Does that also mean that we would have to be covered

:10:28.:10:34.

We have a European economic space with countries like Norway,

:10:35.:10:45.

And that's something that you cannot hide to the British public,

:10:46.:11:03.

the notion that you can exit and keep the benefits that you have

:11:04.:11:06.

And I'm limiting my comments to trade, which is the part I know.

:11:07.:11:17.

Would you go so far as the French Economy Minister,

:11:18.:11:22.

Emmanuel Macron, did at the weekend, to say Britain would be completely

:11:23.:11:25.

killed in trade talks if the country chose to leave?

:11:26.:11:31.

I think any serious people, knowing what's happening in trade

:11:32.:11:34.

on this planet today, knows that the UK has a formidable

:11:35.:11:36.

asset for the moment which has benefited a lot of economies

:11:37.:11:39.

and that losing this asset would have a price.

:11:40.:11:51.

Look, the notion that you exit the EU trade-wise at no

:11:52.:11:53.

David Owen, the former Foreign Secretary and Brexit and Payne joins

:11:54.:12:15.

me now. Does the Gove vision where we are part of some large Free Trade

:12:16.:12:21.

Zone but not of the single market tally with your own vision for

:12:22.:12:26.

Brexit? Yes, I buy into it completely. There is a choice for

:12:27.:12:30.

this country now and it is very difficult and there are arguments on

:12:31.:12:35.

both sides but the fundamental issue is, where is the biggest risk? I

:12:36.:12:38.

think the biggest risk is a collapse in the Eurozone. People say we are

:12:39.:12:43.

not in the Euro and people who want to go into the Euro those people but

:12:44.:12:49.

it will not help. Look what happened to Greece. Rees could default. We

:12:50.:12:54.

could have problems in Italy. We could have problems in Spain. If you

:12:55.:12:59.

see six or seven countries running into a serious crisis, the Eurozone

:13:00.:13:05.

is in crisis and it has been there for six years, the Americans spend

:13:06.:13:09.

all their time trying to get them to change. For me, the question is, can

:13:10.:13:15.

you get out of the EU before you get a Eurozone collapse? That Gove

:13:16.:13:21.

vision specifically today is not just optimistic, it is part of the

:13:22.:13:25.

Free Trade Zone but not of the single market, and we just heard

:13:26.:13:28.

from the World Trade Organisation chief negotiator who has been doing

:13:29.:13:33.

the years of this kind of thing who said it is pie in the sky and it is

:13:34.:13:37.

a lie. Frankly, he doesn't believe it. Well, the issue is, what is this

:13:38.:13:46.

referendum about? We in the campaign trying to persuade people to have

:13:47.:13:51.

the courage to leave, we are not going to be doing the negotiations,

:13:52.:13:54.

that is going to be the Conservative government for the next four years.

:13:55.:13:58.

We have transitional arrangements in the treaty which anticipates

:13:59.:14:03.

somebody might be able to leave. You can't say it is down to the

:14:04.:14:06.

Conservative government to make it work when we are trying to get

:14:07.:14:09.

people to understand. They gave us the referendum. You make it sound

:14:10.:14:16.

like you want it to fail. No, I do not believe it will fail. I am

:14:17.:14:21.

saying that many options which the government faces. I think it was

:14:22.:14:24.

right for Michael Gove to choose the one that nobody can stop us using.

:14:25.:14:30.

We can only build on, which is a WTO.

:14:31.:14:36.

When you say no one can stop us using that, you just heard that if

:14:37.:14:42.

you want free trade, you have to accept the world. Michael Gove says

:14:43.:14:48.

in his version that does not happen. There are various tariffs and some

:14:49.:14:52.

of them are not very helpful to us, or to our partners in the EU, such

:14:53.:14:58.

as the rather high tax on cars. And you negotiate that. We are helped by

:14:59.:15:03.

a position... With whom would you negotiate that? With Germany itself?

:15:04.:15:08.

Up with the whole of the EU? Germany sells arts a lot of cars and we are

:15:09.:15:13.

not going to be able to suddenly switch off, so what would they want?

:15:14.:15:17.

They are looking to expand exports, they are not going to cut us off.

:15:18.:15:23.

This depends on a benevolent view of Germany towards the UK. I have

:15:24.:15:29.

negotiated trade arrangements in the old days of the Soviet Union. We

:15:30.:15:33.

make deals with people who can be very hostile to you because it is

:15:34.:15:36.

done on the basis of mutual interest. A trade deal is a deal,

:15:37.:15:42.

and the basic thing is have you got something to sell, you got something

:15:43.:15:46.

to buy? It is a balance of that. The balance is in our favour. The

:15:47.:15:54.

balance comes down to who needs what most. Trade with Europe represents

:15:55.:15:59.

12% of our GDP but EU trade with us is just 3% of players. So

:16:00.:16:07.

collectively, we need the EU more than they individually need us. You

:16:08.:16:10.

are turning the statistics round of the wrong way. There are two

:16:11.:16:14.

statistics you have given. The powerful one is, in which of the big

:16:15.:16:21.

countries selling large amounts to the UK will be very affected by our

:16:22.:16:27.

sleeping. They are Germany and France and other countries like the

:16:28.:16:31.

Netherlands. Let's be clear. The other thing... Let's go back to

:16:32.:16:37.

this. Read me say one more fact. Since 2002, we have shifted away 10%

:16:38.:16:48.

of our trade from the EU. The EU is stagnating and there is a currency

:16:49.:16:53.

crisis. Let's go back to the idea of trade. In Mr Gove's vision, the idea

:16:54.:16:58.

that France and Germany, probably pretty upset with a Brexit, would

:16:59.:17:02.

suddenly turn around and say, it is fine and you can have what you want,

:17:03.:17:06.

and we not worried. They will not say that. They are going to

:17:07.:17:12.

negotiate what they can give and we can give. Andy Willmott worry about

:17:13.:17:15.

what message that sends out for any other country thinking they could

:17:16.:17:20.

leave, too, and break up the EU? You heard Michael Gove's comment. This

:17:21.:17:25.

is about the democratisation of the comment two continent, that is his

:17:26.:17:32.

goal. We are all living in a European space, the members of many

:17:33.:17:37.

organisations, including Nato. One of the advantages of going out of

:17:38.:17:42.

the EU is that we can pay more attention to that. And we will need

:17:43.:17:46.

to, given American attitudes. The issue is, do you want to stay in the

:17:47.:17:52.

ewe or not? If that decision is taken, it comes to the government to

:17:53.:17:57.

look at these different options. They are trying to put us in a box.

:17:58.:18:03.

If you say you were looking at the UDA, they say that means you are

:18:04.:18:07.

accepting the freedom of movement of labour and you are accepting that

:18:08.:18:10.

you have no vote on arrangements and you are accepting a solution like

:18:11.:18:16.

Norway. The fact of the matter is that under the circumstances where

:18:17.:18:20.

we are negotiating, they may be more open-minded. So there is another

:18:21.:18:24.

question. When you see an end of freedom of movement is central to

:18:25.:18:30.

this, a lot of people look at you and say that you are a liberal, and

:18:31.:18:34.

perhaps you come at this from a different perspective. I do, no

:18:35.:18:39.

doubt. I have spent the last four years trying to get the European

:18:40.:18:46.

Union to reform, to make it possible for the EEA to be the basis of a new

:18:47.:18:54.

Europe. And logically, they refuse. Cameron's negotiation, that showed

:18:55.:18:56.

that they could not change it. Now we have a choice. If we should come

:18:57.:19:01.

out, as I believe we should, we go into a period, probably, we should

:19:02.:19:05.

not rush into it but we start to take steps to bring back the

:19:06.:19:11.

communities legislation which we passed in 1972. We will consider our

:19:12.:19:15.

place and then we will look at all the options. Look at what is

:19:16.:19:18.

happening in America, what will happen to the north Atlantic free

:19:19.:19:22.

trade area, if we have a President Trump. This world is much more

:19:23.:19:27.

uncertain. On that note, we leave it there. Thank you for coming in.

:19:28.:19:30.

In an exclusive television interview, the singer Lily Allen has

:19:31.:19:32.

told Newsnight she feels "victim shamed" by The Metropolitan Police.

:19:33.:19:39.

On Sunday, she told The Observer that she felt let down and dismissed

:19:40.:19:42.

as a nuisance by police over her repeated reports

:19:43.:19:44.

Alex Gray has a history of psychiatric

:19:45.:19:52.

problems and was known to the police, was finally convicted

:19:53.:19:54.

this month, seven years after he first threatened her.

:19:55.:19:57.

It was only when he broke into her house and confronted

:19:58.:20:00.

her in her bedroom, and then stole her bag,

:20:01.:20:02.

that the police caught him and charged him burglary and harassment.

:20:03.:20:05.

That charges didn't, to her dismay, include stalking.

:20:06.:20:07.

In response to her comments, a senior officer at the Met

:20:08.:20:11.

emailed her, warning that her telling of the story could deter

:20:12.:20:14.

Lily Allen spoke to Kirsty earlier today about her support

:20:15.:20:18.

for a National Register of Serial Stalkers.

:20:19.:20:19.

But first, she talked about the eight-year ordeal,

:20:20.:20:21.

The interview contains strong language.

:20:22.:20:45.

I was lying in bed and I could see the door handle moving. And then he

:20:46.:20:52.

steams in and he starts screaming and shouting, where is my dad, what

:20:53.:20:56.

have you done with my dad, you bitch. At which point, I was in

:20:57.:21:07.

shock. I didn't know who this person was. I was concerned for him because

:21:08.:21:10.

I could see that he was really agitated and upset. But it was very

:21:11.:21:18.

focused on me. And he was very close to you, as close as we are. Yes. I

:21:19.:21:24.

recoiled back into my bed, and he ripped the duvet off. I jumped out

:21:25.:21:28.

of bed at that point and ran to the other side of the room. And he kept

:21:29.:21:39.

shouting at me, but he was very focused and it was really confusing

:21:40.:21:43.

because it was loud and aggressive and was lots of gesticulating going

:21:44.:21:47.

on. And he had something under his jumper. He didn't seem as the same

:21:48.:21:51.

person in the photograph, necessarily? Not at all. The

:21:52.:21:54.

photograph, I cannot even visualise it. It was five years ago, and I saw

:21:55.:22:06.

it for 30 seconds. It transpired that on the ninth of torpor, he had

:22:07.:22:10.

sent an e-mail to his mother saying that he was in London and he had

:22:11.:22:14.

come into some money, probably from my handbag, and that was determined

:22:15.:22:20.

to murder a celebrity. The police did not tell me that. And I was

:22:21.:22:26.

living in the same flat. On my own. Albeit with a security guard. Then

:22:27.:22:39.

on the 11th, I think, I was DJing at an event and I came home at about

:22:40.:22:45.

1.00am to find the handbag that had been stolen on the bonnet of my car,

:22:46.:22:50.

burnt out, at which point I called the police. And the police came over

:22:51.:22:58.

and I think that it was the next day that they installed CCTV on the

:22:59.:23:04.

outside of my house. And then a day after that, he was arrested.

:23:05.:23:15.

And what happened in court? He was brought up from the cells, and he

:23:16.:23:28.

came in. He immediately made eye contact with me. He started shouting

:23:29.:23:37.

at me in court. When the judge said, why should I grant you bail today,

:23:38.:23:41.

he said because the world would be a better place without her and that is

:23:42.:23:44.

what I am here to do. There was nobody from the police and courts

:23:45.:23:49.

that morning so even though I have witnessed this, the police had not.

:23:50.:23:54.

Nobody was writing this down in order to notify the CBS that he was

:23:55.:23:58.

continuing to threaten me. There was a charge of burglary and harassment.

:23:59.:24:06.

But now stalking charge? No. It did not seem like they were interested

:24:07.:24:09.

in making that case. After I made evidence, I was taken into a room

:24:10.:24:19.

and told by the CPS that in his interview, he said that he was going

:24:20.:24:28.

to put a knife through my face. And in that interview, part of which was

:24:29.:24:34.

played in court, what did the police say? They said they were going to

:24:35.:24:42.

end the interview there. Until this happened to you, have you any idea

:24:43.:24:47.

of the extent of the problem with stocking? I had no idea the extent.

:24:48.:24:59.

As far as I am aware, it is 700,000 reported cases, 1% of which end up

:25:00.:25:04.

with a prosecution. That is why I have teamed up with the Women's

:25:05.:25:10.

Equality Party and Paladin, the charity associated with stalking, to

:25:11.:25:16.

lobby for this serial wood register. There are not many people in this

:25:17.:25:20.

country who have the resources to move house, take on a security

:25:21.:25:30.

guard. And a legal team, to push the CPS and the police. I feel very

:25:31.:25:34.

thankful that I have those resources but it makes me very worried about

:25:35.:25:38.

other women and men in this situation.

:25:39.:25:55.

"Due to the high profile of this matter I fear other victims

:25:56.:25:57.

of similar crimes may have read the story and now may

:25:58.:26:00.

not have the confidence to report such matters.

:26:01.:26:02.

As such, it is really important that I can understand what, if anything,

:26:03.:26:05.

I was saddened to hear of this report and I would like to hear your

:26:06.:26:10.

I think it is victim shaming and victim blaming.

:26:11.:26:17.

But you know he will be sentenced now and that must bring some relief?

:26:18.:26:24.

It does bring me some relief if he is sentenced and dealt with as a

:26:25.:26:30.

mentally ill person. Because if he is not, I am not safe and my

:26:31.:26:36.

children are not safe. I am not in the slightest bit angry with Alex

:26:37.:26:40.

Gray. I could see from the minute that he came into my bedroom that he

:26:41.:26:42.

was ill and that he needed help. I wanted to help him,

:26:43.:26:47.

I felt immediately like something And I feel like, you know,

:26:48.:26:49.

he has been let down. And how many other people

:26:50.:26:55.

have been let down? Lily Allen's stalker is due to be

:26:56.:27:16.

sentenced next month and she is in touch with the Independent and

:27:17.:27:18.

please -- Independent Police Complaints Commission.

:27:19.:27:20.

Joining me now from Manchester is National Police Chiefs'

:27:21.:27:22.

Council Lead for Stalking and Harassment, Assistant Chief

:27:23.:27:24.

Constable Garry Shewan, of the Greater Manchester Police.

:27:25.:27:26.

And here in the studio with me is one of the London Mayoral

:27:27.:27:29.

candidates and leader of the Women's Equality Party,

:27:30.:27:31.

As you heard, they have teamed up with Lily Allen on this matter.

:27:32.:27:42.

Garry Shewan, that interview seems to raise some astonishing issues.

:27:43.:27:45.

There is something weird about a victim saying that she felt she was

:27:46.:27:48.

victim shamed, made to feel embarrassed by the police calling

:27:49.:27:53.

her out when she complained. How do you make sense of that? It is clear

:27:54.:27:59.

that what she insured must have been incredibly frightening. It is not

:28:00.:28:02.

just celebrities who get stopped. Every week, thousands of victims

:28:03.:28:07.

across the country, men and women, are subject to this frightening

:28:08.:28:11.

behaviour that does not seem to stop. It really tears them apart.

:28:12.:28:16.

And we have to do something about this. As a police service, as a

:28:17.:28:20.

criminal justice system, we have to listen to people like Lily Allen and

:28:21.:28:25.

move forward and learn. Hearing her story is really important. We have

:28:26.:28:29.

to be able to say to people across the country, that is an incredibly

:28:30.:28:35.

frightening experience and we need to do more and more every week now

:28:36.:28:39.

to ensure that we safeguard victims. She felt like she had been told off.

:28:40.:28:44.

When she spoke out and said, I don't think the police came to my rescue

:28:45.:28:48.

on this one, she got an e-mail saying don't deter other people from

:28:49.:28:52.

coming forward. Was that the right call for the Metropolitan police to

:28:53.:28:57.

make? I think we have the last victims, and sadly only one in four

:28:58.:29:01.

victims of stalking ever report their experience to police. Clearly

:29:02.:29:05.

people like Lily Allen who do not report put themselves in danger and

:29:06.:29:09.

we cannot assist them. Do you think the Metropolitan Police fails in

:29:10.:29:13.

this case? Listening to Lily Allen, clearly she feels let down and I do

:29:14.:29:17.

not know the circumstances of the investigation but she feels let

:29:18.:29:21.

down. We have to reach out to the victims and say, please believe us,

:29:22.:29:25.

we treat stalking very seriously and we have to encourage more people to

:29:26.:29:28.

come for bird. Too many people suffer for too long with this

:29:29.:29:34.

obsessive behaviour and we need to support them. -- come forward. I

:29:35.:29:38.

would encourage police forces around the country that this is an

:29:39.:29:41.

important story to listen to and yes, we prosecute more and more

:29:42.:29:45.

people, in the last two years we have successfully prosecuted 77%

:29:46.:29:51.

more cases of stalking than ever before. But that comes down to 1%.

:29:52.:30:00.

Is that right, 700,000 men and women are stalked and 1% convicted? I

:30:01.:30:04.

think what is really interesting here is during Gary talk about how

:30:05.:30:13.

few women report, because they feared this response, that it will

:30:14.:30:18.

not be taken seriously. But that figure, 700,000, that is like 2000 a

:30:19.:30:25.

day? The data is very poor. I don't think it is wrong but I think it

:30:26.:30:29.

could be much worse. We know that most women only come forward after

:30:30.:30:35.

their 100th incident. So the scale of the issue is huge. And what is

:30:36.:30:41.

good about the situation is that we have a stalking law that was

:30:42.:30:44.

introduced in 2012, and we have an agreed approach between Akpom and

:30:45.:30:53.

the CPS agreed in 2014. That is very basic and very necessary, such as

:30:54.:30:57.

referring victims to support services and making sure there is a

:30:58.:31:00.

single point of contact, taking a serious forensic approach from the

:31:01.:31:03.

get go. None of these things happened in Lily Allen's case.

:31:04.:31:09.

The law was introduced in 2012, the statistics speak for themselves,

:31:10.:31:17.

700,000 people stalked, but the police were only interested in the

:31:18.:31:22.

burglary in Lily's case and not the stalking. So an acceptance it is on

:31:23.:31:27.

the rise but a failure on an individual level to take seriously.

:31:28.:31:32.

700,000 in the British crime survey is people saying they have

:31:33.:31:37.

experienced stalking, not reported. They have experienced it. Every

:31:38.:31:41.

year, thousands of people are prosecuted under harassment and

:31:42.:31:45.

stalking laws which are the same statute. Stalking is far more

:31:46.:31:48.

serious and the penalty is more important. We have to get police

:31:49.:31:53.

officers and the CPS to recognise where there is stalking involved, we

:31:54.:31:58.

must charge with stalking. Too many stalkers get charged with harassment

:31:59.:32:02.

offences. And a stalking register, as we would have full sex offenders,

:32:03.:32:07.

is it important since stalking is illegal for there to be a register

:32:08.:32:11.

of people on it? There are a lot of things we can do and in 2016, we

:32:12.:32:15.

will see a great deal of activity. We want to see a stalking register

:32:16.:32:20.

and there will be new guidance for investigating and people can capture

:32:21.:32:23.

the evidence for the police service on their telephones which is really

:32:24.:32:28.

important. And also, we have just Anish consultation with the Home

:32:29.:32:33.

Office on the introduction of a stalking order -- we have just

:32:34.:32:37.

finished. To put controls on perpetrators from the moment it is

:32:38.:32:42.

reported. This is vital to combat it and keep people safe. The Women's

:32:43.:32:47.

Equality Party is doing this work with Lily and Paladin because it is

:32:48.:32:53.

important stalking is recognised but people are not recognising stalking

:32:54.:32:56.

and a key part of this campaign is to ringfence funding for special

:32:57.:33:00.

support groups who can use that expertise to train the police. What

:33:01.:33:06.

is happening is that it is separate incidents being recorded rather than

:33:07.:33:10.

seeing the full pattern. And on top of that, it is really important that

:33:11.:33:16.

is understood so hopefully when we move to a register of serial

:33:17.:33:21.

stalkers, people can recognise that pattern. Thank you, both.

:33:22.:33:23.

If you've been affected by any of the issues that

:33:24.:33:26.

we've discussed tonight, you can contact Paladin, the

:33:27.:33:28.

You have probably heard the one about the boat, the Turkish

:33:29.:33:39.

President and the antiquated law! -- goat.

:33:40.:33:40.

The fine line between great satire and mindless offence is one

:33:41.:33:43.

that is often tested - but a transgression doesn't

:33:44.:33:45.

often cause fully fledged diplomatic incidents.

:33:46.:33:46.

often cause fully fledged diplomatic incident.

:33:47.:33:48.

Not so the German satirist Jan Bohmermann's song about

:33:49.:33:50.

the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

:33:51.:33:55.

It alleged the President was a fan of beast reality, among other

:33:56.:33:59.

things. -- beast reality. Mr Boehmermann is now under police

:34:00.:34:02.

protection and Angela Merkel's government has approved a criminal

:34:03.:34:05.

inquiry, under a little-used law concerning insults

:34:06.:34:07.

against foreign heads of state. It begs questions about free speech,

:34:08.:34:09.

German-Turkish relations, and more. The poem by a controversial

:34:10.:34:12.

German satirist has won Accusing the Turkish President

:34:13.:34:16.

of bestiality, among other things. But it has become a major

:34:17.:34:26.

international incident. To be fair, the comedian explicitly

:34:27.:34:28.

mentioned an obscure German law Paragraph 103 of Germany's Penal

:34:29.:34:30.

Code states, whosoever insults a foreign Head of State shall be

:34:31.:34:39.

liable to imprisonment, not Over 1,500 people have been

:34:40.:34:42.

prosecuted in Turkey He's been accused of cracking

:34:43.:34:53.

down on press freedom. But he has defended his

:34:54.:35:00.

attitude to satire. I must put it in very fine terms,

:35:01.:35:03.

we shouldn't confuse criticism With the refugee crisis in Europe

:35:04.:35:06.

top of the agenda and Turkey seen as key to solving it,

:35:07.:35:13.

the German Chancellor may have felt obliged to accept Erdogan's demand

:35:14.:35:15.

for the comedian to be investigated. President Erdogan is taking

:35:16.:35:26.

advantage of Merkel's desperation to stem the flow

:35:27.:35:31.

of Syrian migrants into continental Europe and therefore he puts

:35:32.:35:34.

pressure on her to open a criminal investigation against

:35:35.:35:37.

the German satirist. You make fun of us Germans liking

:35:38.:35:38.

David Hasselhoff... But Merkel is now facing

:35:39.:35:40.

accusations in Germany she has The great Public Intellectual

:35:41.:35:42.

Michael Ignatief - former leader of Canada's liberal

:35:43.:35:53.

party - joins us now from Harvard. I said, what choice does Angela

:35:54.:36:01.

Merkel have but to allow the prosecution? She could have said

:36:02.:36:02.

respectively to Mr Erdogan... Prosecuting a German national

:36:03.:36:06.

satirist for an insult to you is And you should not

:36:07.:36:08.

seek satisfaction in If you are offended, with respect,

:36:09.:36:16.

Mr Erdogan, it's your problem. There is a line, between satire and

:36:17.:36:31.

offence. And when you talk to Turkish journalists and they said

:36:32.:36:34.

this bordered on Islamophobia, it becomes a slightly different

:36:35.:36:40.

question. Come on, I think satire is not satire on less it is offensive.

:36:41.:36:44.

Of course this stuff is offensive. That is what satire is. The real

:36:45.:36:50.

issue is that Erdogan wanted to send a message to the Turkish population

:36:51.:36:57.

in Germany that he could put a free-speech chill on them and he

:36:58.:37:01.

wants to put a free-speech chill on all his journalists in Turkey.

:37:02.:37:08.

Especially at this time in Europe. A lot has been read into this. Do you

:37:09.:37:14.

see it as the beginning of the end of Western European values, as some

:37:15.:37:21.

others have suggested? I do not think, -- I do not think Westerns of

:37:22.:37:26.

lies Asian is at the right, I do not think free-speech is at threat.

:37:27.:37:31.

Brash Western civilisation. I hope the Germans will abolish the law

:37:32.:37:35.

that makes it possible for a Head of State to urge prosecution when they

:37:36.:37:43.

feel insulted. The other issue that will come more into the foreground

:37:44.:37:47.

is people will realise Erdogan is a bad guy. That this regime started

:37:48.:37:54.

reading Turkey towards democracy. There is tremendous support for

:37:55.:38:00.

democracy in Turkey, it is hugely important that Turkey is showing

:38:01.:38:09.

democracy can work, as an Islamic State. This guy is walking them

:38:10.:38:12.

back. Angela Merkel says she will abolish this law, what does this

:38:13.:38:17.

suggest between a feature relationship between Germany and

:38:18.:38:22.

Turkey? I think that is where a lot of Europeans are very concerned.

:38:23.:38:26.

What is the price we have paid in terms of freedom of speech, in terms

:38:27.:38:31.

of free Visa access for Turks into Europe? What price are we paying for

:38:32.:38:35.

the price of this refugee deal is the mark and the people who defend

:38:36.:38:40.

the refugee Convention and human rights, they are very concerned

:38:41.:38:44.

about the terms of the deal and whether it denies Syrian refugees

:38:45.:38:50.

the protections that refugee laws are supposed to provide for them. So

:38:51.:38:56.

I think everybody is looking at this incident with a sour -- with a

:38:57.:39:01.

satirist and asking a lot of questions about whether the price

:39:02.:39:06.

Europe has paid for a refugee deal has been simply too high. Do you

:39:07.:39:10.

think this will cost her politically, is this where people

:39:11.:39:13.

say that the rot has set in, and you are too keen to accommodate a

:39:14.:39:20.

country that is on the outside? What Merkel is saying to her Republic is,

:39:21.:39:25.

we do not need to solve this refugee problem with barbed wire. I can get

:39:26.:39:30.

a deal with the Turks that makes it a safe third country and take a

:39:31.:39:35.

diminished number of Syrians into the country and therefore maintain

:39:36.:39:41.

German consent for a generous refugee policy, without having to go

:39:42.:39:44.

barbed wire like barbarians have done. -- like the hungry and saw.

:39:45.:39:53.

She is on increasingly thin ice with the German public and this incident,

:39:54.:39:58.

she comes out looking weak and weakness is fatal in politics. Thank

:39:59.:40:00.

you very much. A pleasure. That is all we have time

:40:01.:40:10.

for but Evan is here tomorrow, good night.

:40:11.:40:20.

Good evening. A lovely spring day today, more sunshine on the way

:40:21.:40:26.

tomorrow. A chilly start in the Northern half of the UK and a touch

:40:27.:40:29.

of frost in the countryside.

:40:30.:40:31.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS