31/05/2016 Newsnight


31/05/2016

Featuring EU referendum debate; Donald Trump's foreign policy adviser; what Labour needs to do to regain power; an interview with the winner of the Nobel Prize for literature.


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Transcript


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Think you understand what it is to be in the EU? The league campaign

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wants you to think again. -- the leave campaign. You cannot have a

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single currency without political union. There has to be a United

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States of the euro down. Chris Grayling argues for Vote Leave, Emma

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Reynolds votes remain. I'm going to build a wall

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and Mexico's going to I'm going to bomb the BLEEP out

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of them. Foreign policy under a President

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Trump - stability or stupidity? One of his advisers joins us live.

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And when will things get better regain for Labour? The party has mac

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-- the party's ideas man thinks he may have the answers.

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For months, the Remain side in the referendum campaign has

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challenged the Leave side to tell us "what does out look like?"

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on its trading relationships, win friends and influence people

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But it's also fair to ask "what does in look like?"

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The EU won't stand still, there is the risk that it could pull

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us in a direction we don't want to go.

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That was the thrust of a speech by Chris Grayling today,

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one of the leading Cabinet members arguing for us to leave.

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We'll test his arguments shortly, but first here's David Grossman,

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We are on a journey into the future but the Prime Minister tells us we

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have a choice to make between the certainty of remaining in the EU and

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the risk of leaving. The leave sides say the equation is the reverse, it

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is staying inside a fast changing EU that is the biggest risk of all.

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Chris Grayling, the leader of the House Commons was outlining those

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risks in a speech today. He says one of the biggest is that Europe is

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marching now towards increased integration and we will have no

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choice but to follow. We have a new list of EU social policies which

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will be an integration across the eurozone. These are going to be EU

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laws passed in the normal way. There is no treaty change or another

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option to create Eurozone- only laws. We have no opt out, we will be

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affected. This deeper integration will happen even faster because of

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what is going on in the Eurozone. There has to be a single Government

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structure for the Eurozone. You cannot have a single currency

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without political union. There has to be a United States of the

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Eurozone. A key report sets out a vision to complete your's economic

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and monetary union. That vision is for fiscal union within the

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Eurozone, but the remain campaign says that while affect us as much

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because we're not in the euro and we have an opt out. I don't think the

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public believes that, because we build out our island and Portugal.

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Despite assurances, we ended up bailing out Greece as well. --

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bailed out Ireland. The more rich European countries bailing out the

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Eurozone, the less they have to get involved. A further crisis could

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push up the number of migrants coming to Britain from the EU, say

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Vote Lead bust up and that will happen if more and poorer countries

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join. Government policy supports Turkey joining the EU. David Cameron

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has been clear on this in the past. I will remain your strongest

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possible advocate for EU membership and greater influence at the top

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table of European diplomacy. The remain campaign say this is not

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remotely likely. They seek to play the immigration card and say that

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Turkey will be joining the EU, look at all these immigrants who will

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come here, which conveniently ignores the fact that Turkey will

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not join any time soon, and the UK had a veto on it taking up

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membership. However unlikely it may appear today, no one can rule out

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that Turkey and the four other candidates for joining, Albania,

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Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia, will not end up in the EU.

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Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Council, said last year

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that such an army would help us to build a common foreign and national

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security policy, and to collectively take on Europe's responsibilities in

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the world. The more the EU purports to exert itself militarily, the more

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it distracts from Nato, which has guaranteed security in Europe since

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World War II. The EU is notoriously divided when it comes to foreign

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policy, so we don't want them pretending and posturing in the area

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of foreign policy, where it never delivers and distracts from Nato,

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the real shield we have to protect our security in Europe. The truth

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perhaps is that there is no truly safe road. Voters have to decide

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which risks they have to accept and which they would prefer to turn away

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from. David Grossman there. We are joined by Chris Grayling, Leader of

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the House of Commons, and by Labour MP Emma Reynolds, a former Shadow

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Europe Minister. Chris Grayling, in your speech, there is a slightly

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long quote: If we go to remain in the EU, it would be EU rules that

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determine minimum wage, that said how our pensions worked, to govern

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our schools system and rules that would tell us how our health service

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should work. Do you have any evidence that that will happen? Not

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only that, it is on the European Commission website as a consultation

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they are running, called The Social Pillar, it was in Jean-Claude

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Juncker's speech last year, and it sets out in detail plans on all of

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these areas and talks about this being a legal document it is the

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next stage in the integration process of the Eurozone. It says,

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for the Eurozone, voluntary, for outside the Eurozone, not optional.

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We have no opt out and there is no mechanism for Eurozone- only

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lawmaking. Unless there is a change to the E -- to how the EU works, and

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there is none on the horizon, there is no opt out. The proposition I

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read out is is a statement the -- is a statement that says we will not

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have to do this. There is no option for us to opt out. It all applies to

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us. Correct? This is a false premise of your speech today, with respect,

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Chris. We already have, for example, the banking union which only affects

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Eurozone countries. In fact, we have the euro, which only affects

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Eurozone countries. We have opted to come out of Schengen, the open

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borders system. There is a history of variable geometry and opt outs

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from the UK and states such as Denmark on many policy areas, and it

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seems odd to me that you should be suggesting that somehow the EU will

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make laws to do with skills, the national minimum wage or the health

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service, when there is absolutely no prospect of that. The reason is, the

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risks of leaving, the economic risks, are so huge and well

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documented that this is, frankly, a distraction technique. My point is

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simple. We have no opt out from European social legislation. At the

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moment, everything passed by the European Parliament applies to us.

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So where is the opt out? Can they not pass a law saying, this applies

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to Eurozone countries and not to the UK? Of course they can. They can do

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that and it doesn't cover us. Not without treaty change. I am talking

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about their passing a law and did not applying to the UK. They can

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pass a law that doesn't apply to one state. If your country begins with

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the U, you don't have to follow this law. Well the treaty is clear -

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social legislation of this kind applies to every European Union

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member, including the UK. Their wrist now operates -- there is no

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opt out. Is it true that this will apply other than voluntarily? The

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commission in Brussels is putting various things in the cupboard.

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You're suggesting he knows that this law will apply to us and is lying

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when he says it won't. I think the European Commission is playing down

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what is going to be happening after our referendum. You are making a

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very basic constitutional point and implying that Jean-Claude Juncker

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does not understand it or is being mendacious. I think the European

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Union is trying not to do anything controversial in the run-up to the

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referendum, but there is no opt out. Emma Reynolds, it is true that we

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have 13% of the vote in the Council of ministers. There are things the

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EU can do that may apply to us whether we like it or not. It is

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worth saying we have a veto in a number of areas, foreign policy

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being one of them. What often happens at EU level, and Chris will

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know this, is that at ministers meetings where a lot of important

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decisions are made, there are votes, because these decisions are made in

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a collaborative and cooperative way. In 97% of cases in which there are

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votes, and it is not often, nine out of ten cases, we get our own way. On

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that point, when we have opposed the European Commission in a vote in the

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European Council, we have never been on the winning side. Right, but it

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is only 13% of cases where we lose. These cross my desk all the time. We

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say, we don't want to do this, but it is the best we can get and it

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still needs ?80 million extra in costs. That crosses my desk every

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week. In the modern, interconnected, global world, we have decided to

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pool our sovereignty to be stronger, because many of the challenges with

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which the EU helps us, climate change, cross-border time and

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terrorism, trade with the rest of the world, we are strengthened in

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our endeavour to do that by being a member of the EU. I think we

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understand the geography of the Big Apple book. Another argument is that

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you could have a lopsided European Union, because there will be a

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country called the Eurozone, and Britain

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will be a small country at the edge of that that will be outvoted and

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essentially a passenger. Do you accept that that is unsatisfactory?

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I don't accept that is going to happen. There are nine member states

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outside the Eurozone. We are the biggest state outside the Eurozone.

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Your party leader, Chris, the Prime Minister, when he came back in

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February with his re-negotiation, got a guaranteed that any decisions

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made about the single market which affect all 28 member states, we

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would preserve the integrity of the single market, so anything the

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Eurozone could do in the future that would affect that, we would have a

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say. If we leave, we won't. It is the ability to say to everyone in

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the Council, we don't like that, could you discuss it again? It gave

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no more power than that. The whole point about this is, in the February

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document, the nine member states that are not members of the

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Eurozone, seven of them, not the United Kingdom or Denmark the other

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seven all signed up to a commitment to the Eurozone. If that document

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were worth something, that commitment is there, they have to

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join. The incidentally, it does sound like Scotland and England,

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what you would end up with. Is that a dysfunctional situation that you

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would end up with? It would be like the EU next to the Eurozone,

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Scotland next England. The British public needs to decide whether to

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vote to stay in something that is going to take on the characteristics

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of a United States. We will be bolted on to an emerging Eurozone

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Federation that will dominate the decision making. Their decisions

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will be what matters, our national interest will be of peripheral

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importance. Why talk down our involvement in the European Union?

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It was the Conservative Government in the 1980s that pushed the idea of

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the sickle market, which has been hugely successful. The idea that

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somehow we don't get our way in Europe and we are somehow a social

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outcast is absolutely not true. We are one of the biggest member states

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and we are powerful. I would like to leave it there. Emma Reynolds, thank

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you very much. Chris Grayling, I would like to ask you more

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questions, if I could. Your colleagues in the Leave campaign,

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Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, will flesh out policy. They are

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apparently going to visit that we would immediately end the

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application to UK law of the European Charter of fundamental

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rights. Is that right? US site has said that nothing would

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change if we vote to leave. Voting to announce the European Charter of

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fundamental human rights would take us in breach of current treaty

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obligations. The Charter of fundamental rights is not supposed

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to apply to the UK. It would be a change in our arrangement with the

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EU. It is part of the process of disengagement. I do not want a

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situation where the European Court of justice with a loosely worded

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document, that is starting to write UK laws in areas such as asylum, we

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should start that process of disengagement. You have got to make

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your mind up as a campaign, is something going to change on the day

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after we leave or is nothing going to change for two years, because we

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have had both of those lines coming from your campaign. Others might

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take it as a serious breach of our commitment to the EU to say

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unilaterally, we are not going to respect the right of the European

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court of justice to make provision for the Charter of fundamental human

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rights. Of course the campaign is the government and these are things

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that the team campaigning to leave believe that we should do. We cannot

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make commitments for government. We can say what we think should happen.

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So it is not the case if we voted to leave that the application to UK law

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of the Charter... The Vote Leave team believe that is what should

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happen but of course we are part of broader government as it is their

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decision. Vote Leave is not the government, it is a campaign saying

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this is what we should do to stop so tax or spending promises, these are

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all things that people are just saying. There are things that we

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could take back control of. Do you think it is likely that after we

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vote to leave, do you think the UK would take the step, to announce the

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right of European judges to preside over us in the way they currently

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do? To start the process of limiting the ability of the European Court of

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Justice to make new decisions for the UK as we negotiate our exit is

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surely sensible. And with that leads to a happy divorce procedure or

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annoy other nations and lead to a more dark and difficult period as at

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Wii outside the EU represent 17% of exports so they will want to have a

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sensible discussion about how we continued to collaborate in trade

:17:59.:18:02.

and in terms of security where they depend on our security services for

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many of the protections they provide to their citizens. Liam Fox

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yesterday brought up the situation of Gibraltar, and said it would

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remain sovereign whether or not the UK is in the EU. You think that

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Spain might be required, just to close the border with Gibraltar? My

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view on Gibraltar is that we've got to use all are diplomatic leverage

:18:29.:18:32.

with Spain to make sure that does not happen. We have the issue of

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Spain and Gibraltar long before we joined the EU. You will be engaging

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with a complicated trade negotiation and if Spain says we do not like

:18:42.:18:45.

this Gibraltar situation and will shut the border, just while we talk

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about this, but could make our life more difficult. Legally they cannot

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do that at that stage anyway. And with Gibraltar we have got to work

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with the Spanish to make sure that Gibraltar is properly protected.

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They cannot shut the border the day after we vote to leave and we have

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got to make sure that in what happens beyond, we protect the

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interests of Gibraltar and its people.

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Five words: President Donald Trump's foreign policy.

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What exactly would his foreign policy be?

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He has helpfully spelt it out a little.

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Somebody criticised me the other day because they asked me

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what I'd do and I said, I'm going to bomb the shit out of them.

:19:33.:19:35.

I'm going to build a wall and Mexico is going to pay for it, right?

:19:36.:19:44.

We cannot continue to allow China to rape our country,

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It is the greatest theft in the history of the world.

:19:47.:19:51.

It is likely that there will be more to it than that.

:19:52.:19:54.

But interestingly, North Korea appeared to endorse him today,

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calling him a wise politician and a far-sighted candidate.

:19:58.:20:04.

Well, to help us understand what it is a Trump

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we are joined by one of his foreign policy advisors, Walid Phares.

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You listen to that montage reselected. Do you really think that

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man is that to be the leader of the United States in the Western world?

:20:21.:20:25.

Of course and thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain a bit

:20:26.:20:29.

more. You look at the montage and listen to it on one hand and then

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listen to his foreign policy speech a few months ago and realised the

:20:35.:20:38.

general guidelines, interpretations, are found more so in that piece on

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foreign policy than in a montage. Of course many of the things he said

:20:47.:20:52.

need explanation and we are trying to clarify as much as we can. Just a

:20:53.:20:57.

quickfire round. You're not in favour of water boarding personally?

:20:58.:21:04.

I am a defence lawyer, I am against torture in general but the debate is

:21:05.:21:08.

not about that specific issue of torture. We had a debate in Congress

:21:09.:21:15.

and still is water boarding considered to be torture and that

:21:16.:21:25.

debate is not over. Mr Trump said later, that he would work within the

:21:26.:21:29.

laws and that would mean going to Congress to debate not just this but

:21:30.:21:36.

many other points. Just another, you agree that China, as I understand it

:21:37.:21:42.

it has freely traded with the United States in a rules -based way, has

:21:43.:21:47.

been engaged in the biggest theft in the history of the world? These are

:21:48.:21:55.

statements made at rallies and of course the strong but we have seen

:21:56.:22:01.

similar strong statements made by another president who was a

:22:02.:22:03.

Hollywood actor and became one of the most famous president of the

:22:04.:22:08.

United States, Ronald Reagan. Or perhaps from other candidate, the

:22:09.:22:12.

language used is strong. He means that we have a major Rob, a

:22:13.:22:17.

significant problem with China, but once selected he is willing to sit

:22:18.:22:21.

down and try to resolve these issues. With American foreign

:22:22.:22:29.

policy, and populist politicians, either they go the way of getting

:22:30.:22:34.

the hell out of the world and save our own troops, keep them at home,

:22:35.:22:38.

isolationism, and the other to go around the world beating up the bad

:22:39.:22:42.

guys and showing how strong we are. Of those options, isolation or

:22:43.:22:48.

intervention, which side does Donald Trump fall on? That is a good

:22:49.:22:53.

question and we get this all the time because of the statements he

:22:54.:22:59.

makes. This is a new phenomenon, he's not an isolationist, he likes

:23:00.:23:03.

to cut deals with many countries and engage in building coalitions with

:23:04.:23:08.

the right partners on the one hand. Of course on the other hand he wants

:23:09.:23:13.

American interest to come first, as every leader does. I think you could

:23:14.:23:25.

define him as being functional. One level is allies and partners and

:23:26.:23:29.

another level, other countries in the world. A glorious way to not

:23:30.:23:34.

answer a question! You can barely tell us if his instincts are

:23:35.:23:40.

isolationist or interventionist, extraordinary. These concepts

:23:41.:23:45.

basically our old concepts, look at liberal democracies across the

:23:46.:23:50.

world, it is difficult to say if the country or presidency or

:23:51.:23:54.

administration are fully interventionist fully isolationist.

:23:55.:24:01.

There may be areas where a democracy may not decide to go and other

:24:02.:24:07.

instances for example, President Obama said they would not intervene

:24:08.:24:14.

any more after the war in Iraq and he has just intervened in Libya. So

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it is the decision-making process in the country that will decide. That

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will be the case with Donald Trump. Thank you very much for talking to

:24:26.:24:27.

us. By the time the Soviet Union

:24:28.:24:29.

disintegrated in the early '90s, it was so sclerotic and inefficient,

:24:30.:24:32.

that it was a wonder it had To many of us in the West,

:24:33.:24:35.

it's even more extraordinary that so many Russians

:24:36.:24:38.

support President Putin, You know, cracking down

:24:39.:24:40.

on the media at home and taking Well, if you want some insight

:24:41.:24:44.

into the Russian mindset, try the works of Svetlana Alexievich,

:24:45.:24:48.

who won the Nobel Prize Her new book, Second Hand Time,

:24:49.:24:50.

has just been published in English. It's an exploration of the collapse

:24:51.:25:00.

of the Soviet Union and the psychological

:25:01.:25:03.

effects of that event She's been speaking

:25:04.:25:05.

to Gabriel Gatehouse. Only a soggy can understand another

:25:06.:25:16.

Soviet person. I would never talk to anyone else. -- only associate.

:25:17.:25:22.

Svetlana Alexievich is a collector of other people's stories, a

:25:23.:25:26.

chronicler of the life and death of the Soviet Union. Svetlana

:25:27.:25:32.

Alexievich is from Belarus, one of the 15 states that emerged out of

:25:33.:25:36.

the ashes of the USSR. She's very much a Soviet writer. Her lifelong

:25:37.:25:42.

obsession has been to probe the psychological effect of the collapse

:25:43.:25:49.

of the Soviet empire on its people. I do not know how I'm going to

:25:50.:25:53.

survive, what should I hang onto a when I close my eyes I see him lying

:25:54.:25:57.

there in the Coffin. But we were so happy. Why did he decide that death

:25:58.:26:05.

was a beautiful thing? The Nobel committee called her work polyphonic

:26:06.:26:11.

writing, her books are made up of hundreds of interviews, collected

:26:12.:26:15.

and edited over a period of years. It is nonfiction, but in this

:26:16.:26:20.

decision of the great Tolstoy novel. -- in the tradition.

:26:21.:27:14.

Svetlana Alexievich, her work focuses on the events that preceded

:27:15.:27:21.

and precipitated the collapse of the Soviet Union, Afghanistan, Chernobyl

:27:22.:27:27.

and in her latest work, Second Hand Time, the trauma of the collapse

:27:28.:27:31.

itself. We are the ones who went to the camps, who piled up the corpses

:27:32.:27:37.

during the war, who dug through the nuclear waste in Chernobyl with our

:27:38.:27:43.

bare hands. We sit atop the ruins of socialism like it is the aftermath

:27:44.:27:51.

of war. We are run and defeated. Our language is the language of

:27:52.:27:58.

suffering. Svetlana Alexievich is no apologist

:27:59.:28:02.

for the Communist regime but her books are infused with a deep sense

:28:03.:28:05.

of empathy for people who sold way of life suddenly disappeared. --

:28:06.:28:11.

whose whole way of life. In five years everything can change

:28:12.:28:46.

in Russia. In 200, nothing. The 1990s were turbulent times.

:28:47.:28:52.

Russia ditched Communism and got capitalism instead, all the glitz of

:28:53.:28:55.

the free market. But for most it was a time of economic catastrophe. It

:28:56.:29:00.

was freedom but not the freedom they had hoped for, materially or

:29:01.:29:02.

psychologically. We dream and meanwhile we lived our

:29:03.:29:29.

Soviet lives by a unified set of rules that applied to everyone.

:29:30.:29:35.

Someone stands on the podium, he is lying, everyone applauds. Everyone

:29:36.:29:40.

knows that he is lying and he knows that they know that he is lying.

:29:41.:29:46.

Still he says all that stuff and enjoys the applause.

:29:47.:30:49.

For Svetlana Alexievich, perestroika was a once in a generation

:30:50.:30:53.

opportunity that she says has now vanished.

:30:54.:31:15.

There was a moment before Vladimir Putin's return to the presidency for

:31:16.:31:21.

a third term where it looked like the spirit perestroika had returned.

:31:22.:31:26.

Thousands came out into the streets in the biggest demonstrations since

:31:27.:31:30.

the 1990s, but the protests fizzled out, and not just because of the

:31:31.:31:34.

riot police. Do you really think the only thing holding all this together

:31:35.:31:40.

is fear? The police with their clubs? You're wrong. The victim and

:31:41.:31:46.

the executioner have an agreement. That's something left over from

:31:47.:31:51.

Communist times. There is a silent pact, a contract, a great unspoken

:31:52.:32:00.

agreement. The people understand everything, but they keep quiet. In

:32:01.:32:05.

exchange, they want decent salaries, the ability to buy at least a used

:32:06.:32:08.

Audi. Democracy - that's funny word in

:32:09.:32:26.

Russian. Putin, the Democrat. That's our shortest joke.

:32:27.:32:35.

Back to UK politics now. The old rule is that divided political

:32:36.:32:36.

parties can't win elections. That adage will be sorely tested

:32:37.:32:42.

at the next one as both main parties Conservative in-fighting is the more

:32:43.:32:45.

engrossing right now, Is it at the start of a long march

:32:46.:32:49.

back to Downing Street, Tomorrow the party launches

:32:50.:32:53.

a new group, called Labour Together, that sees

:32:54.:32:57.

itself as trying to plot At the helm is one of the party's

:32:58.:32:59.

big thinkers, Jon Cruddas. He wants to find a way

:33:00.:33:03.

for Labour to re-engage He'll tell us how, after we hear

:33:04.:33:05.

from our Political Editor Nick Watt. As a new dawn was breaking over

:33:06.:33:21.

London's Southbank half a generation ago, the Labour Party embarked on

:33:22.:33:24.

its longest unbroken spell in Government. The weather is more grim

:33:25.:33:29.

today, and the prospect of power seems further away than ever. After

:33:30.:33:35.

a false start, a new group has been established to try and rekindle that

:33:36.:33:40.

spirit. I had never seen a Labour Government in my lifetime. I was 17

:33:41.:33:44.

before they came to power, and in that time, I watched the north-west,

:33:45.:33:50.

where I was growing up, becoming increasingly angry and divided, with

:33:51.:33:54.

huge problems of unemployment, derelict shops in the city centre,

:33:55.:34:03.

and families really suffering. I don't want my baby to be 17 before

:34:04.:34:06.

he sees a Labour Government, and that's why I think we need to stop

:34:07.:34:09.

his long-term set of challenges and decline that the party has had. In

:34:10.:34:13.

public, Labour has engaged in something of a civil war in recent

:34:14.:34:17.

months, with endless plots to replace Jeremy Corbyn. Members of

:34:18.:34:22.

Labour Together who have been pained by the inviting agree that he is

:34:23.:34:26.

unlikely ever to be Prime Minister, but they believe that Jeremy Corbyn

:34:27.:34:30.

is here to stay, which means that the work on charting a course back

:34:31.:34:39.

to Government needs to begin now, with Labour members across the

:34:40.:34:47.

country building confidence. We need to prove that we understand the

:34:48.:34:50.

needs of managing budgets properly and working within the priorities

:34:51.:34:58.

that are set to rise. Labour Together says it is not forming a

:34:59.:35:05.

Tony Blair tribute band, but its values are from the new Labour era.

:35:06.:35:10.

The group does say that Labour became so disconnected in office

:35:11.:35:14.

that it now has its work cut out to win back the trust of voters. Labour

:35:15.:35:20.

Party members wanted something different, that lost us to make

:35:21.:35:26.

elections in a row. Jeremy has brought in hundreds of thousands of

:35:27.:35:30.

new members who are on asset under resourced they are people we can use

:35:31.:35:33.

to connect with people out there, but we don't do it by shouting at

:35:34.:35:38.

the voters but by debating with him and campaigning. We will rebuild

:35:39.:35:43.

credibility from the ground up in this party, that is how politics

:35:44.:35:48.

works. They were called champagne socialist... Labour knows the party

:35:49.:35:52.

will only secure a comfortable Commons majority if it wins back

:35:53.:35:57.

voters from the Middle England parliamentary seats, such as

:35:58.:36:03.

Stevenage. When new Labour's 1999 success was celebrated, eventually

:36:04.:36:09.

it was done in some style. Jeremy Corbyn may be a harder sell in such

:36:10.:36:15.

seats. We have a job to do to reshape the Labour Party so that it

:36:16.:36:19.

speaks to everyone across the country. Jeremy's reading on that

:36:20.:36:23.

process. You get the right person for the right moment, often, and I

:36:24.:36:28.

think Jeremy's very open approach to things will help us to reshape our

:36:29.:36:32.

party. Where we go to for the future, who knows? The new group is

:36:33.:36:38.

wholly aware of the weaknesses of Jeremy Corbyn and his predecessor as

:36:39.:36:45.

Labour leader, but it says that the period of sniping and plotting is

:36:46.:36:50.

now over. We need to get back together and focus on the people of

:36:51.:36:53.

this country and how the Labour Party makes life better for them.

:36:54.:37:01.

Sadiq Khan's in recent victory in London has encouraged the party as

:37:02.:37:04.

it works out how to chart a route back to power. David Cameron was

:37:05.:37:10.

forced to pay tribute to the new Mayor when they appeared together on

:37:11.:37:13.

the campaign trail. London is not Great Britain. Winning back the

:37:14.:37:20.

country's cautious voters may be a far harder challenge.

:37:21.:37:26.

I spoke to Jon Cruddas, who is leading the Labour Together group

:37:27.:37:32.

that launches tomorrow. He is on the sunny West coast of Ireland, where

:37:33.:37:36.

he is having a breakfast Jon Cruddas, does Labour need another

:37:37.:37:39.

group to pontificate on the fate of the party? We have had various

:37:40.:37:47.

groups. If you had as many votes as groups, you would be on your way to

:37:48.:37:51.

victory. I don't look at it like that. I think it is healthy and a

:37:52.:37:56.

positive contribution for the future of the party. We needed because we

:37:57.:38:01.

have had two terrible election defeats, so all ideas need put into

:38:02.:38:08.

the mix in a spirit of goodwill and pluralism. I think it will make a

:38:09.:38:12.

positive contribution in the next few years. People are saying that

:38:13.:38:16.

Jeremy Corbyn isn't going anywhere before the next election. Do you

:38:17.:38:20.

agree with that? Is he potentially not going to be leader by the time

:38:21.:38:24.

of the next election? I don't think he's going anywhere. The results of

:38:25.:38:28.

a few weeks ago have put paid to some of the simplistic assumptions

:38:29.:38:32.

of leadership challengers. I think we have to make contributions to the

:38:33.:38:41.

future of the party. We are duty bound to do so, and we should

:38:42.:38:44.

respect Jeremy's mandate and the office of the leader of the Labour

:38:45.:38:47.

Party. There is a gap between the voters and Jeremy Corbyn.

:38:48.:38:50.

Emigration, the economy, welfare, these are things were Jeremy Corbyn

:38:51.:38:53.

and his supporters, who will keep him that, are in a very different

:38:54.:38:58.

place to a lot of people thought of as corn Labour voters. I think that

:38:59.:39:09.

is right. -- call Labour voters. We have a few years to work through a

:39:10.:39:12.

positive policy programme. You can see of the last few months that they

:39:13.:39:17.

are beginning to tighten their operation around the leadership of

:39:18.:39:20.

the party. I think there are grounds for optimism. Your analysis is that

:39:21.:39:26.

Jeremy Corbyn is 1 million miles from the people who need to vote for

:39:27.:39:30.

you, if that is the case, tell me one reason why you will close that

:39:31.:39:34.

gap and win the next election. I don't know if we will win the next

:39:35.:39:39.

election, I just think that everyone in the party should make a positive

:39:40.:39:42.

contribution to the future of the party. I know the difficulties we

:39:43.:39:46.

face. Arguably, we have had the worst defeat in our history. I don't

:39:47.:39:51.

think I am being overly optimistic. I am saying we need to positively

:39:52.:39:56.

contribute to the future. We need to talk about Europe a little bit,

:39:57.:39:59.

because there was an interesting poll this morning that indicated

:40:00.:40:10.

that something like 45% of Labour voters were confused, really, as to

:40:11.:40:13.

what the party's position was in the forthcoming referendum. Does that

:40:14.:40:15.

surprise you, that people basically don't know where the party stands on

:40:16.:40:19.

this issue? Not at all. If you come to my constituency in east London,

:40:20.:40:24.

you would have a lot of conflicting views about where the party stands.

:40:25.:40:30.

There is a long way to go. It will be a turbulent few weeks. I see from

:40:31.:40:35.

the opinion polls that the Brexit case is growing, it seems, in terms

:40:36.:40:39.

of the supported is getting in the country, so we will see how it all

:40:40.:40:44.

shakes down. It doesn't surprise me. You are not surprised that people

:40:45.:40:48.

don't know where the party stands on what is such an important issue?

:40:49.:40:53.

That is a pretty poor state of affairs, isn't it, if people are

:40:54.:40:57.

confused about that? I am not surprised about some of the opinion

:40:58.:41:01.

polling we are seeing on the European question. It is not to say

:41:02.:41:05.

that the Labour Party is not united in support of remaining in, it is

:41:06.:41:09.

just to say that there is a lot of confusion out there about the Labour

:41:10.:41:14.

position. Can I ask where you are on the EU? A lot of the public

:41:15.:41:20.

confusion might be because a lot of Labour people seem confused. Are you

:41:21.:41:23.

clear about your opinion on how to vote in the referendum? Yes. I will

:41:24.:41:30.

be voting, I think, to stay in. I think we have heard enough about the

:41:31.:41:35.

democratic reform of Europe. We haven't heard enough about

:41:36.:41:37.

challenging the corporate stitch up, but to me, it is such a big bet to

:41:38.:41:42.

leave that I will be voting in favour. You really don't sound

:41:43.:41:47.

terribly sure, with respect. You said you think you will vote to

:41:48.:41:53.

stay. Do you not know? Yes, I do know how I will vote. I will vote in

:41:54.:41:58.

favour of remaining. If you could have the status quo or we leave,

:41:59.:42:06.

you, Jon Cruddas, would vote to? It is a false choice. It is not a

:42:07.:42:11.

politician's answer, but I want to see the positive case for staying on

:42:12.:42:15.

with a much more aggressive reform agenda. That is what I think you

:42:16.:42:23.

will see put out over the next few weeks by John McDonnell and Jeremy

:42:24.:42:26.

Corbyn, and I think it will be welcome across the country and will

:42:27.:42:31.

strengthen the case to remain. Jon Cruddas, nice to talk to you. That

:42:32.:42:38.

interview, brought to you by the Irish tourist board! That is all for

:42:39.:42:47.

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