03/06/2016 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

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Tonight, Michael Gove tells us people have had


enough of the experts, as he makes his case


I am sorry, you have had your day, unelected, unaccountable elite. I am


afraid it is time to SAQ fired, we are going to back control. -- time


Has his hour in the sun made the case for Brexit


A highly sexualised, toxic environment, where bullying was rife


As the inquest into the death of a soldier at Deepcut Barracks


concludes, we ask if the Army simply couldn't handle women.


Lord Dannatt, former head of the Army, joins us live.


Tom Keneally, the Booker Prize-winning author who brought


This time, a revisionist take on Napoleon Bonaparte.


Josephine once commented on it, that she went to the wardrobe and found


items of clothing missing. So he is a Frenchman, he tried it all, I


Was this the week when something in the EU waters shifted?


When all those who'd quietly thought the Remain camp would emerge


unambiguously triumphant suddenly got a sense of something stirring


Something feels different at the end of this week.


But it's a sense that the Out camp have found their footing -


on immigration, on sovereignty perhaps.


Tonight, Michael Gove - for the Out campaign -


faced Sky News, and an audience of voters hungry for answers


Our political man David Grossman was watching close up.


It's supposedly a presage of the end of days -


David Cameron and Michael Gove were once the closest of friends.


For the next three weeks, they're on opposite sides


of the referendum contest that could presage the end of days


Today, it was Michael Gove's turn to sit where his 1's best friend for


ever sat yesterday. He was first as the bout the economy if he supported


the case for Brexit and then about friendly foreign leaders who


supported it. We have gone into battle with these


people, give me one. You cannot name one, can you? I will give you a half


for Donald Trump. One of the things about Donald Trump


and all of these people is that they do not have a vote in this


referendum. The people in this audience and watching at home have a


vote and my view is when you hear foreign leaders and politicians, do


not pay attention to what they say but what they do and the truth is


that Barack Obama would never accept a court in Mexico decreeing the law


in the United States. Michael Gove was asked about possible job losses


which the Remain sites they will follow Brexit. I know myself on my


own background that the European Union, it depresses employment and


it destroys jobs. My father had if fishing business in Aberdeen


destroyed by the European Union and the Common fisheries policy. The


European Union has hollowed out communities across this country. It


has also contributed to lower salaries for working people and it


has also ensured that young people in this country do not have the


opportunities to get the entry-level jobs we heard about last night. You


can say that their concerns do not matter. I did not say that. You said


a majority... You claimed that your father was an example... You are on


the side of the elites, I am on the side of the people. Meanwhile, the


Chancellor was on duty for the Remain campaign visiting JP Morgan,


a bank that helped crush the world's financial system. The CEO makes $27


million a year, yes, that is right, he was there to warn against Brexit.


Although at first, he sounded like he was arguing for it. I love the UK


and Britain even though I am an American -- I am an American patriot


and I... They were the only people standing against the terror of Nazi


is, the British people, and the world owes them a great debt of


gratitude. As the Chancellor perhaps wondered where this was going, Mr


Diamond got to the point, telling his employees in the event of


leaving the EU, they may have to leave some operations out of the UK


and he did not know how many he would be forced to fire. At a


Brexit, we cannot do it all here. We have to start planning for that. I


do not know if it means 1,000, 2,000, as many as 4,000 jobs, it


would be all around the UK. Mr Gove dismissed these concerns. The final


question from the studio audience was about himself. You considering a


leadership bid? That is the leadership question! I am absolutely


not. The one thing I can tell you if there are a lot of talented people


who could be Prime Minister after David Cameron would count me out.


APPLAUSE. These days, Michael Gove sometimes dresses like this, but 11


years ago as one of the first MPs to support David Cameron's leadership,


he was dressed in a bit like a beatnik. I think David Cameron is


the person who most adeptly has his finger on contemporary Britain's


policy. We shall see which of the two has his finger on Britain's


polls in three weeks' time. Joining us tonight:


Alastair Campbell, once Tony Blair's Dia Chakravarty, an Outter,


and political director Although she is here


speaking in her own right. Did Michael Gove speak for you when


he spoke about getting away from experts and the elites? That was


interesting and I do agree. Most of the Remain so far, it has been very


establishment. The establishment is saying we need to remain within the


EU. The other thing that resonated is the control issue. Economic


suspect you are the on both sides and I like the idea of taking back


control and that will motivate me. You work with economics, do you like


having a man who says, I do not need to name a single economist? It has


been speculative on both sides. Does anybody understand who is saying


what as far as economic is concerned on either side? It will be uncertain


whatever we do because that is the nature of the world we live in.


These people now coming out and saying, economic is going to be


destroyed if we leave the EU, better record is not great, is it? Do you


agree with what I said at the beginning of the evening, the sense


that something has shifted? Remain is not as confident as they were two


weirs -- two weeks ago? In any case pained you should stay focused until


the end on your arguments and I do not believe Michael Gove has pushed


forward in the way you suggest -- in any campaign. This is the biggest


decision any of us will take in our lifetime, it is like several general


elections of decision-making. It is right people take an interest and


may be that some people are confused and undecided. But for the


politicians, they have to keep going with the main demons. I have always


thought from the beginning, do not take anything for granted. -- the


main arguments. When you have unleashed the forces involved in


this referendum, we are seeing a deliberate attempt by one Tory


politician to get rid of another. That is confusing things for the


Labour Party. You are not talking about Michael Gove? I think it is


sad that has happened but it happens when you have a referendum. You


cannot always control... David Cameron announced the referendum in


very soon -- very different circumstances to what we have got


now. The big arguments Cameron is putting forward and Jeremy Corbyn


and the Trade Union Bill is... But they have done it and done it. They


have to keep doing it. We all watch programmes like this and we see


newspapers, how can there be millions of people still undecided?


Still thinking! We can talk to one of them. You honestly undecided? He


has a good device for his column! Thank you. I have always been a


passionate Eurosceptic and I do not believe that means you have to


leave. They are not the same thing. What has happened this last week has


been interesting because a couple of polls have showed a switch, even the


pollsters do not trust them. It is very unreliable. I believe we will


vote to stay but that is a different matter. It is curious a couple of


polls changes the temperature of the debate. It is fairly clear two


things have happened. Reject the has not worked. I believe that. Before


that interview, it showed on two crucial issues, people were not


worried about the money if they got the control on the immigration


right. So the economy is now my work than immigration? Immigration is


playing higher. That is economic. It has been really confusing, nobody


can tell us the implications. Your own campaigning is focusing now


solidly on immigration, they have made that decision and it seems to


be working. I am not a part of the official campaign. I am not


pretending to speak for them but in your name, you happy and comfortable


with that? It does not matter to what Nigel Farage Mr Gove says, this


is a really big decision. I cannot decide the future of my country


based on who is supporting which campaign because it is a very


confused pool of people, made really, really conflicting


bedfellows. Suddenly you have JP Morgan and the unions on the same


side. The America bank accent was an own goal! He has got an own view and


he can go on television, he has gone beyond that. If you are a Royal


David Cameron supporting Tory, a loyal Jeremy Corbyn supporting


Labour person, Tim Farron, the Greens, if you follow your leaders,


it is a landslide for In, but it is not happening. Because most of the


thinking that matters at the moment is not going on inside the bubble.


The reason I am, I do not think anything has moved, but the reason I


may be more worried than I was is because I think that all this


economic heavy artillery is being pounded out and I do not agree with


Simon, you have to keep going with big messages because they have that


element of truth. It has not stopped these more emotional arguments. For


me, the In campaign has got to get a bit more emotional and show the


fight, show that this really matters. In the end, this is about


people going out and persuading other people. I have to persuade him


if I can and find other people and persuade them and it is not going to


happen inside the studios. Philosophically, what is this about?


David Cameron faced an audience yesterday not just asking about the


EU referendum but Sadiq Khan and nurses, putting their leader on the


spot. Is this about a metropolitan bubble burst and haves and


have-nots? If you go out to the public, they will say what they


think about you. What they think about you, that is always the danger


of a referendum. What is interesting here is that this is what this poll


shows, people do not always vote by their pocketbook. They vote for


vague concepts like national identity, control and sovereignty


and Mr Gove shrewdly went on and on about taking back control. If you


say take back control, almost anybody wants to do that, it is a


good line. If you got behind that, there is a cloud of immigration, it


is quite potent message. I still think a lot of Remain people are not


telling the pollsters what they want to do. David Cameron is constantly


telling people it is about their pocketbook and it is not. I do not


feel comfortable defending David Cameron, strange bedfellows! But he


is also saying it is about what sort of country we are and they worry


when I see Michael Gove who is one of the more intelligence Tory


ministers saying it does not matter what experts think and what people


said who know what is going on in the world. The only reason he says


that, if he had big employers coming out for Leave, he would say that


their opinion mattered. I think there is massive responsibility on


individuals to inform ourselves. Is that what they want in the Leave


camp? That there are no experts? Who do we believe? Who do you believe?


It is not about the Leave campaign or the Remain campaign, what they


want any more, it is about the ordinary person. It is a more subtle


question. Is it better for the country to say we have not got


experts and economists? Is that the message people want? The experts


typically come from the establishment, that is the point.


This is the idea that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are not part of the


establishment! If you follow Jeremy Corbyn's position. All his life, he


has been antiestablishment. He has been Eurosceptic. He was in favour


of Brexit and suddenly you find themselves very much part of the


establishment as Leader of the Opposition. This is the denigration


of anybody who does not have that opinion, really. Both sides do it.


Yes, I agree. There wasn't a single economist for


Margaret Thatcher. Totting up how many experts you have one each side


is pure politics, pretty vacuous. When you have so many people saying


we'll be worse off if we take this decision, you can't just say to them


all, you are all part of project fear, some of them, in the end...


Quickly respond. They may well be experts but these very people have


got it wrong over and over in the past, how can we trust them?


The question of why and exactly how four young recruits died


at the Deepcut army base is one that, by any stretch


of the imagination, should have been answered


Today, an inquest into the death of 18-year-old Cheryl James,


found with a single gunshot wound two decades ago, ascertained


she killed herself - a verdict her long-suffering


But crucially, the coroner today unearthed a culture


Highly sexualised, chaotic, alcohol-fuelled and toxic.


A place where bullying was rife and young recruits had nowhere


The coroner declared that staff at the camp had failed in their duty


The British Army has had many great days,


She joined the Army in 1995, did well in training and was then


21 years ago, private Cheryl James was on guard duty here at Deepcut


There was a shot and her body was found dead.


Her family have maintained to this day that Surrey Police


and the Royal Military Police concluded far too quickly


And so, as a result of that critical time, there was no proper


In 2014, they won their battle for a fresh inquest


That inquest reported today, but the result was not


Coroner Brian Barker found that Cheryl James died


Speaking after the verdict, her father, Des James,


politely and respectfully disagreed with the coroner's


While we welcome the coroner's verdict, the coroner's findings


today on the environment at Deepcut, we are deeply saddened


Having sat through all of the evidence ourselves,


listened carefully to every word, read every statement


In short, it is our opinion that it did not lead to this verdict.


Now, 20 years ago, in the first inquest, the verdict was open.


Now, clearly, the family are very unhappy and what we are hearing


from them is a concern that there was no strong


So why did the coroner find it that way?


But the inquest also raised wider issues about the culture at Deepcut


In terms of the way in which the Army deals


with recruits and trainees, things are very different now.


They are right to say that, they are entitled to say that.


Where they really still have a problem is


This coroner referred to it, other coroners have referred


to it in other cases, and in other criminal cases,


and it remains the case that the Army really


In 2014, 24,000 serving men and women were polled and 90%


of them thought the Army had an overly sexualised culture,


and 39% of those people had had an upsetting incident.


It is way beyond the realm of other workplaces and this is a real issue.


Tonight, a BBC Two documentary broadcast testimony from other


A Corporal who was one of my instructors asked me to go


back to the female accommodation, so I went back and I walked


And he called me from the shower room.


And he pushed me up against the wall, And he started kissing me.


And then he put his hand up my skirt.


And with his other hands, started fondling my


One thing I'd learned from training is that you don't talk back


to your NCOs, and you don't fight back.


The tragedy of private Cheryl James is not just a story


It also shines a light on what its critics say


is the British Army's failure to face up to its darker side.


Lord Dannatt, former head of the Army joins us now.


After 20 years, two inquests, the family still don't feel


That's the real problem here, isnt it?


Of course it is, the first thing to say is, one has huge sympathy and


sorrow for the tragedy of Cheryl James losing her life. One expresses


huge sympathy towards her family and the families of the other three


soldiers who lost their lives at Deepcut 15, 20 years ago. It's a


tragedy and nothing will ever replace Cheryl James's life and the


life of her family all one can say is it an ongoing tragedy for them.


One can say more than that, one can say they don't feel they've had the


answers to this now. What has to happen for them to get that? It's


difficult for them not to feel they've had the answers, I


understand entirely. Of course this corona conducted his inquest of the


best of usability and came up with the conclusion he did. There's no


getting away from the fact all was not well by a long degree at Deepcut


20 years ago and Nicholas Blake QC conducted an investigation into


thousands six into Deepcut and the army accepted a lot of


responsibility things were not right. The decision was taken to


close Deepcut in the intervening years. Standards have improved, the


budgetary regime has been such it hasn't been possible to close


Deepcut, and things have changed. There's no getting away that things


are not right and I would say this to anybody listening to this and


what the shocking programme broadcast at 9pm on BBC Two, if I


can finish this point, that watched that programme, if there are things


that happen to them, allegations they want to put forward, they must


come forward to the police, these must be investigated, because where


things have not been done like they need to be investigated, people


investigated if necessary. The families as you know are calling for


a public inquiry and you'll be aware you were the former head of the


army. You must look back at some of this, it must have crossed your


desk, didn't you think, don't you wish, you had got to the bottom of


that? Two or three things: this has been investigated more than once,


Surrey Police investigated what the Royal Military Police investigated,


a case under investigation for some time. I accept entirely the Army has


found it difficult to deal with allegations of sexual harassment and


bullying, bullying is endemic. Should there be a public inquiry? I


think there should be, it the only practical and reasonable response to


this because people have a right to know. I stress again if there are


individuals who went through training at Deepcut and elsewhere


and believe they suffered bullying or sexual harassment that hasn't


been investigated, they should complain, if they are serving to the


service police, or to the civilian police, these things will be... It's


really important. You've just made that point before. It sounds as


though the army still has a problem with women. It started to recruit


women, yet it didn't give them any duty of care, wouldn't allow them to


get to padres when they needed them, it failed the women who needed help


and it hasn't changed much today, you heard from the lawyer. I have to


reject that it hasn't changed very much, the position described in the


programme at 9pm was quite appalling, that was 20 years ago.


Since Nicholas Blake QC investigated Deepcut in 2006, Ofsted inspect all


training establishments. The survey is from 2014. You have to allow me


to finish. Ofsted inspector or training establishments and in the


last round of inspections all were found to be either good or


excellent, things have changed. There's always room for improvement,


there can be no covering up if people have felt they've been abused


or wrongly treated, they must complain, it must be investigated.


Wrongdoers must be brought to book even 20 years later, it's really


important. If parents send young people to the Army, they must have


confidence the Army will look after them and not abuse them. It's really


critical and what makes our soldiers really good. We can't accept poorer


standards from anyone. Lord Danek. We've been talking a lot


about Europe, in case you hadn't noticed, but tonight,


we take you back to the man who had designs on the continent some 200


years before the EU - Boris Johnson, you might recall,


got rather a mixed press for comparing those who ran Brussels


to Napoleon and Hitler. Now the Booker-Prize winning


Australian novelist Thomas Keneally casts Bonaparte, at least,


in a different light. In his new novel, 'Napoleon's Last


Island', the Emperor's final exile on St Helena,


in the South Atlantic, becomes a metaphor for the way


unwanted foreigners are treated by Keneally's fellow countrymen,


and by others. He's been talking to our


Culture Editor, Stephen Smith. It's Boris's bogeyman,


Napoleon Bonaparte, Boney ended his days


on the inhospitable bluff They chose this island


in the South Atlantic to put him, a magnificent


place for detention. Only two real beaches


from which anyone could escape. The Emperor lived in a kind of grand


flat belonging to the East India He befriended the company's agent,


a Brit, and his family. A friendship which


eventually cost them dear. kind of exile, in


Australia, under a cloud. It was characteristic of the way


19th-century Britain hived off its undesirables


to Australia. Not only the convicts,


not only the working class, but also the unsatisfactory members


of the bourgeoisie and gentry. At the London library,


at ungodly o'clock this morning, Tom Keneally recalls


stumbling upon Napoleon's Aussie Is there any hard evidence Napoleon


ever wore women's clothing? Because he does in


the book, doesn't he? Yes, there is a rumour


he liked dressing She went to the wardrobe and found


items of clothing missing. He's a Frenchman, he


tried it all, I think. Some reviewers have seen


in the figure of Napoleon perhaps a metaphor for what


Australia and many others do with Yes, a number of us


have been campaigning for an end to the detention system


in Australia, which is a de facto Punishing people for seeking asylum,


which is not a crime And I think the same


tendency is occurring here But after all they are a problem


we partly made by our reckless And we're not, perhaps, the main


engines, the tyrants of the main engines of expulsion, but, you know,


in solving this problem, they've got Some here have advocated


adopting an Australian The writer says that's fine


when the normal channels work. But the normal channels


of immigration, for all of us, have been swamped


by the refugees of the world. We are not as kind in awarding


points to people He urges Britain to beware


the type of detention centre for unauthorised arrivals


that they have down under. The idea of locking


up will satisfy about ready percent of the population,


but the other 80, you can only get them to bear it,


to bear the national shame of it, if you lie


about who's in there. I profited from writing books


about scapegoating, so I can't sit Look at the snow, look


at the snow, look at the I lost a worker, I expect


to be compensated. By sheer chance, Tom Keneally heard


the story of Oskar Schindler, which became his novel


and Steven Spielberg's film. From a Holocaust


survivor called Poldek, who was selling him


a briefcase at the time. To look at a man like Poldek,


a vivid man, he used to say things to Spielberg, Stephen,


you can't win an Academy Awards with little furry animals, enough


with the little furry animals. And you can't look at a man


like that and work out why an entire regime considered that he had


to have his oxygen taken away from But all racial hysteria is the great


nonsense of history. Before we go, Nick Clegg solicited


the ire of our loquacious former London Mayor by suggesting


he was "Donald Trump It's not the first time


the blonde Brexiteer has been compared to Trump and,


if these images are anything to go by, it


may not be the last.


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