03/06/2016 Newsnight


03/06/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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Tonight, Michael Gove tells us people have had

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enough of the experts, as he makes his case

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I am sorry, you have had your day, unelected, unaccountable elite. I am

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afraid it is time to SAQ fired, we are going to back control. -- time

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Has his hour in the sun made the case for Brexit

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A highly sexualised, toxic environment, where bullying was rife

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As the inquest into the death of a soldier at Deepcut Barracks

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concludes, we ask if the Army simply couldn't handle women.

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Lord Dannatt, former head of the Army, joins us live.

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Tom Keneally, the Booker Prize-winning author who brought

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This time, a revisionist take on Napoleon Bonaparte.

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Josephine once commented on it, that she went to the wardrobe and found

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items of clothing missing. So he is a Frenchman, he tried it all, I

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Was this the week when something in the EU waters shifted?

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When all those who'd quietly thought the Remain camp would emerge

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unambiguously triumphant suddenly got a sense of something stirring

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Something feels different at the end of this week.

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But it's a sense that the Out camp have found their footing -

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on immigration, on sovereignty perhaps.

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Tonight, Michael Gove - for the Out campaign -

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faced Sky News, and an audience of voters hungry for answers

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Our political man David Grossman was watching close up.

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It's supposedly a presage of the end of days -

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David Cameron and Michael Gove were once the closest of friends.

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For the next three weeks, they're on opposite sides

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of the referendum contest that could presage the end of days

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Today, it was Michael Gove's turn to sit where his 1's best friend for

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ever sat yesterday. He was first as the bout the economy if he supported

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the case for Brexit and then about friendly foreign leaders who

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supported it. We have gone into battle with these

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people, give me one. You cannot name one, can you? I will give you a half

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for Donald Trump. One of the things about Donald Trump

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and all of these people is that they do not have a vote in this

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referendum. The people in this audience and watching at home have a

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vote and my view is when you hear foreign leaders and politicians, do

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not pay attention to what they say but what they do and the truth is

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that Barack Obama would never accept a court in Mexico decreeing the law

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in the United States. Michael Gove was asked about possible job losses

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which the Remain sites they will follow Brexit. I know myself on my

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own background that the European Union, it depresses employment and

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it destroys jobs. My father had if fishing business in Aberdeen

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destroyed by the European Union and the Common fisheries policy. The

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European Union has hollowed out communities across this country. It

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has also contributed to lower salaries for working people and it

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has also ensured that young people in this country do not have the

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opportunities to get the entry-level jobs we heard about last night. You

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can say that their concerns do not matter. I did not say that. You said

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a majority... You claimed that your father was an example... You are on

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the side of the elites, I am on the side of the people. Meanwhile, the

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Chancellor was on duty for the Remain campaign visiting JP Morgan,

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a bank that helped crush the world's financial system. The CEO makes $27

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million a year, yes, that is right, he was there to warn against Brexit.

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Although at first, he sounded like he was arguing for it. I love the UK

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and Britain even though I am an American -- I am an American patriot

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and I... They were the only people standing against the terror of Nazi

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is, the British people, and the world owes them a great debt of

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gratitude. As the Chancellor perhaps wondered where this was going, Mr

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Diamond got to the point, telling his employees in the event of

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leaving the EU, they may have to leave some operations out of the UK

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and he did not know how many he would be forced to fire. At a

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Brexit, we cannot do it all here. We have to start planning for that. I

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do not know if it means 1,000, 2,000, as many as 4,000 jobs, it

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would be all around the UK. Mr Gove dismissed these concerns. The final

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question from the studio audience was about himself. You considering a

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leadership bid? That is the leadership question! I am absolutely

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not. The one thing I can tell you if there are a lot of talented people

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who could be Prime Minister after David Cameron would count me out.

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APPLAUSE. These days, Michael Gove sometimes dresses like this, but 11

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years ago as one of the first MPs to support David Cameron's leadership,

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he was dressed in a bit like a beatnik. I think David Cameron is

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the person who most adeptly has his finger on contemporary Britain's

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policy. We shall see which of the two has his finger on Britain's

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polls in three weeks' time. Joining us tonight:

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Alastair Campbell, once Tony Blair's Dia Chakravarty, an Outter,

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and political director Although she is here

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speaking in her own right. Did Michael Gove speak for you when

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he spoke about getting away from experts and the elites? That was

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interesting and I do agree. Most of the Remain so far, it has been very

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establishment. The establishment is saying we need to remain within the

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EU. The other thing that resonated is the control issue. Economic

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suspect you are the on both sides and I like the idea of taking back

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control and that will motivate me. You work with economics, do you like

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having a man who says, I do not need to name a single economist? It has

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been speculative on both sides. Does anybody understand who is saying

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what as far as economic is concerned on either side? It will be uncertain

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whatever we do because that is the nature of the world we live in.

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These people now coming out and saying, economic is going to be

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destroyed if we leave the EU, better record is not great, is it? Do you

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agree with what I said at the beginning of the evening, the sense

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that something has shifted? Remain is not as confident as they were two

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weirs -- two weeks ago? In any case pained you should stay focused until

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the end on your arguments and I do not believe Michael Gove has pushed

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forward in the way you suggest -- in any campaign. This is the biggest

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decision any of us will take in our lifetime, it is like several general

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elections of decision-making. It is right people take an interest and

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may be that some people are confused and undecided. But for the

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politicians, they have to keep going with the main demons. I have always

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thought from the beginning, do not take anything for granted. -- the

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main arguments. When you have unleashed the forces involved in

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this referendum, we are seeing a deliberate attempt by one Tory

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politician to get rid of another. That is confusing things for the

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Labour Party. You are not talking about Michael Gove? I think it is

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sad that has happened but it happens when you have a referendum. You

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cannot always control... David Cameron announced the referendum in

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very soon -- very different circumstances to what we have got

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now. The big arguments Cameron is putting forward and Jeremy Corbyn

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and the Trade Union Bill is... But they have done it and done it. They

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have to keep doing it. We all watch programmes like this and we see

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newspapers, how can there be millions of people still undecided?

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Still thinking! We can talk to one of them. You honestly undecided? He

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has a good device for his column! Thank you. I have always been a

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passionate Eurosceptic and I do not believe that means you have to

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leave. They are not the same thing. What has happened this last week has

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been interesting because a couple of polls have showed a switch, even the

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pollsters do not trust them. It is very unreliable. I believe we will

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vote to stay but that is a different matter. It is curious a couple of

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polls changes the temperature of the debate. It is fairly clear two

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things have happened. Reject the has not worked. I believe that. Before

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that interview, it showed on two crucial issues, people were not

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worried about the money if they got the control on the immigration

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right. So the economy is now my work than immigration? Immigration is

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playing higher. That is economic. It has been really confusing, nobody

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can tell us the implications. Your own campaigning is focusing now

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solidly on immigration, they have made that decision and it seems to

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be working. I am not a part of the official campaign. I am not

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pretending to speak for them but in your name, you happy and comfortable

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with that? It does not matter to what Nigel Farage Mr Gove says, this

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is a really big decision. I cannot decide the future of my country

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based on who is supporting which campaign because it is a very

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confused pool of people, made really, really conflicting

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bedfellows. Suddenly you have JP Morgan and the unions on the same

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side. The America bank accent was an own goal! He has got an own view and

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he can go on television, he has gone beyond that. If you are a Royal

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David Cameron supporting Tory, a loyal Jeremy Corbyn supporting

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Labour person, Tim Farron, the Greens, if you follow your leaders,

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it is a landslide for In, but it is not happening. Because most of the

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thinking that matters at the moment is not going on inside the bubble.

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The reason I am, I do not think anything has moved, but the reason I

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may be more worried than I was is because I think that all this

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economic heavy artillery is being pounded out and I do not agree with

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Simon, you have to keep going with big messages because they have that

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element of truth. It has not stopped these more emotional arguments. For

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me, the In campaign has got to get a bit more emotional and show the

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fight, show that this really matters. In the end, this is about

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people going out and persuading other people. I have to persuade him

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if I can and find other people and persuade them and it is not going to

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happen inside the studios. Philosophically, what is this about?

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David Cameron faced an audience yesterday not just asking about the

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EU referendum but Sadiq Khan and nurses, putting their leader on the

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spot. Is this about a metropolitan bubble burst and haves and

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have-nots? If you go out to the public, they will say what they

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think about you. What they think about you, that is always the danger

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of a referendum. What is interesting here is that this is what this poll

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shows, people do not always vote by their pocketbook. They vote for

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vague concepts like national identity, control and sovereignty

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and Mr Gove shrewdly went on and on about taking back control. If you

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say take back control, almost anybody wants to do that, it is a

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good line. If you got behind that, there is a cloud of immigration, it

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is quite potent message. I still think a lot of Remain people are not

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telling the pollsters what they want to do. David Cameron is constantly

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telling people it is about their pocketbook and it is not. I do not

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feel comfortable defending David Cameron, strange bedfellows! But he

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is also saying it is about what sort of country we are and they worry

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when I see Michael Gove who is one of the more intelligence Tory

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ministers saying it does not matter what experts think and what people

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said who know what is going on in the world. The only reason he says

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that, if he had big employers coming out for Leave, he would say that

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their opinion mattered. I think there is massive responsibility on

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individuals to inform ourselves. Is that what they want in the Leave

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camp? That there are no experts? Who do we believe? Who do you believe?

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It is not about the Leave campaign or the Remain campaign, what they

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want any more, it is about the ordinary person. It is a more subtle

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question. Is it better for the country to say we have not got

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experts and economists? Is that the message people want? The experts

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typically come from the establishment, that is the point.

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This is the idea that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are not part of the

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establishment! If you follow Jeremy Corbyn's position. All his life, he

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has been antiestablishment. He has been Eurosceptic. He was in favour

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of Brexit and suddenly you find themselves very much part of the

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establishment as Leader of the Opposition. This is the denigration

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of anybody who does not have that opinion, really. Both sides do it.

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Yes, I agree. There wasn't a single economist for

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Margaret Thatcher. Totting up how many experts you have one each side

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is pure politics, pretty vacuous. When you have so many people saying

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we'll be worse off if we take this decision, you can't just say to them

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all, you are all part of project fear, some of them, in the end...

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Quickly respond. They may well be experts but these very people have

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got it wrong over and over in the past, how can we trust them?

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The question of why and exactly how four young recruits died

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at the Deepcut army base is one that, by any stretch

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of the imagination, should have been answered

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Today, an inquest into the death of 18-year-old Cheryl James,

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found with a single gunshot wound two decades ago, ascertained

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she killed herself - a verdict her long-suffering

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But crucially, the coroner today unearthed a culture

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Highly sexualised, chaotic, alcohol-fuelled and toxic.

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A place where bullying was rife and young recruits had nowhere

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The coroner declared that staff at the camp had failed in their duty

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The British Army has had many great days,

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She joined the Army in 1995, did well in training and was then

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21 years ago, private Cheryl James was on guard duty here at Deepcut

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There was a shot and her body was found dead.

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Her family have maintained to this day that Surrey Police

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and the Royal Military Police concluded far too quickly

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And so, as a result of that critical time, there was no proper

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In 2014, they won their battle for a fresh inquest

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That inquest reported today, but the result was not

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Coroner Brian Barker found that Cheryl James died

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Speaking after the verdict, her father, Des James,

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politely and respectfully disagreed with the coroner's

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While we welcome the coroner's verdict, the coroner's findings

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today on the environment at Deepcut, we are deeply saddened

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Having sat through all of the evidence ourselves,

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listened carefully to every word, read every statement

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In short, it is our opinion that it did not lead to this verdict.

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Now, 20 years ago, in the first inquest, the verdict was open.

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Now, clearly, the family are very unhappy and what we are hearing

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from them is a concern that there was no strong

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So why did the coroner find it that way?

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But the inquest also raised wider issues about the culture at Deepcut

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In terms of the way in which the Army deals

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with recruits and trainees, things are very different now.

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They are right to say that, they are entitled to say that.

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Where they really still have a problem is

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This coroner referred to it, other coroners have referred

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to it in other cases, and in other criminal cases,

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and it remains the case that the Army really

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In 2014, 24,000 serving men and women were polled and 90%

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of them thought the Army had an overly sexualised culture,

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and 39% of those people had had an upsetting incident.

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It is way beyond the realm of other workplaces and this is a real issue.

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Tonight, a BBC Two documentary broadcast testimony from other

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A Corporal who was one of my instructors asked me to go

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back to the female accommodation, so I went back and I walked

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And he called me from the shower room.

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And he pushed me up against the wall, And he started kissing me.

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And then he put his hand up my skirt.

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And with his other hands, started fondling my

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One thing I'd learned from training is that you don't talk back

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to your NCOs, and you don't fight back.

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The tragedy of private Cheryl James is not just a story

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It also shines a light on what its critics say

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is the British Army's failure to face up to its darker side.

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Lord Dannatt, former head of the Army joins us now.

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After 20 years, two inquests, the family still don't feel

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That's the real problem here, isnt it?

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Of course it is, the first thing to say is, one has huge sympathy and

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sorrow for the tragedy of Cheryl James losing her life. One expresses

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huge sympathy towards her family and the families of the other three

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soldiers who lost their lives at Deepcut 15, 20 years ago. It's a

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tragedy and nothing will ever replace Cheryl James's life and the

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life of her family all one can say is it an ongoing tragedy for them.

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One can say more than that, one can say they don't feel they've had the

:21:19.:21:23.

answers to this now. What has to happen for them to get that? It's

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difficult for them not to feel they've had the answers, I

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understand entirely. Of course this corona conducted his inquest of the

:21:35.:21:40.

best of usability and came up with the conclusion he did. There's no

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getting away from the fact all was not well by a long degree at Deepcut

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20 years ago and Nicholas Blake QC conducted an investigation into

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thousands six into Deepcut and the army accepted a lot of

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responsibility things were not right. The decision was taken to

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close Deepcut in the intervening years. Standards have improved, the

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budgetary regime has been such it hasn't been possible to close

:22:06.:22:09.

Deepcut, and things have changed. There's no getting away that things

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are not right and I would say this to anybody listening to this and

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what the shocking programme broadcast at 9pm on BBC Two, if I

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can finish this point, that watched that programme, if there are things

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that happen to them, allegations they want to put forward, they must

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come forward to the police, these must be investigated, because where

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things have not been done like they need to be investigated, people

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investigated if necessary. The families as you know are calling for

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a public inquiry and you'll be aware you were the former head of the

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army. You must look back at some of this, it must have crossed your

:22:48.:22:51.

desk, didn't you think, don't you wish, you had got to the bottom of

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that? Two or three things: this has been investigated more than once,

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Surrey Police investigated what the Royal Military Police investigated,

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a case under investigation for some time. I accept entirely the Army has

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found it difficult to deal with allegations of sexual harassment and

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bullying, bullying is endemic. Should there be a public inquiry? I

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think there should be, it the only practical and reasonable response to

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this because people have a right to know. I stress again if there are

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individuals who went through training at Deepcut and elsewhere

:23:28.:23:32.

and believe they suffered bullying or sexual harassment that hasn't

:23:33.:23:35.

been investigated, they should complain, if they are serving to the

:23:36.:23:40.

service police, or to the civilian police, these things will be... It's

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really important. You've just made that point before. It sounds as

:23:45.:23:47.

though the army still has a problem with women. It started to recruit

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women, yet it didn't give them any duty of care, wouldn't allow them to

:23:53.:24:00.

get to padres when they needed them, it failed the women who needed help

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and it hasn't changed much today, you heard from the lawyer. I have to

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reject that it hasn't changed very much, the position described in the

:24:10.:24:13.

programme at 9pm was quite appalling, that was 20 years ago.

:24:14.:24:19.

Since Nicholas Blake QC investigated Deepcut in 2006, Ofsted inspect all

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training establishments. The survey is from 2014. You have to allow me

:24:27.:24:31.

to finish. Ofsted inspector or training establishments and in the

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last round of inspections all were found to be either good or

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excellent, things have changed. There's always room for improvement,

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there can be no covering up if people have felt they've been abused

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or wrongly treated, they must complain, it must be investigated.

:24:47.:24:50.

Wrongdoers must be brought to book even 20 years later, it's really

:24:51.:24:54.

important. If parents send young people to the Army, they must have

:24:55.:24:58.

confidence the Army will look after them and not abuse them. It's really

:24:59.:25:01.

critical and what makes our soldiers really good. We can't accept poorer

:25:02.:25:04.

standards from anyone. Lord Danek. We've been talking a lot

:25:05.:25:16.

about Europe, in case you hadn't noticed, but tonight,

:25:17.:25:19.

we take you back to the man who had designs on the continent some 200

:25:20.:25:21.

years before the EU - Boris Johnson, you might recall,

:25:22.:25:24.

got rather a mixed press for comparing those who ran Brussels

:25:25.:25:27.

to Napoleon and Hitler. Now the Booker-Prize winning

:25:28.:25:30.

Australian novelist Thomas Keneally casts Bonaparte, at least,

:25:31.:25:32.

in a different light. In his new novel, 'Napoleon's Last

:25:33.:25:34.

Island', the Emperor's final exile on St Helena,

:25:35.:25:36.

in the South Atlantic, becomes a metaphor for the way

:25:37.:25:38.

unwanted foreigners are treated by Keneally's fellow countrymen,

:25:39.:25:40.

and by others. He's been talking to our

:25:41.:25:42.

Culture Editor, Stephen Smith. It's Boris's bogeyman,

:25:43.:25:44.

Napoleon Bonaparte, Boney ended his days

:25:45.:25:52.

on the inhospitable bluff They chose this island

:25:53.:25:56.

in the South Atlantic to put him, a magnificent

:25:57.:26:02.

place for detention. Only two real beaches

:26:03.:26:03.

from which anyone could escape. The Emperor lived in a kind of grand

:26:04.:26:17.

flat belonging to the East India He befriended the company's agent,

:26:18.:26:20.

a Brit, and his family. A friendship which

:26:21.:26:24.

eventually cost them dear. kind of exile, in

:26:25.:26:25.

Australia, under a cloud. It was characteristic of the way

:26:26.:26:34.

19th-century Britain hived off its undesirables

:26:35.:26:37.

to Australia. Not only the convicts,

:26:38.:26:41.

not only the working class, but also the unsatisfactory members

:26:42.:26:44.

of the bourgeoisie and gentry. At the London library,

:26:45.:26:50.

at ungodly o'clock this morning, Tom Keneally recalls

:26:51.:26:54.

stumbling upon Napoleon's Aussie Is there any hard evidence Napoleon

:26:55.:26:56.

ever wore women's clothing? Because he does in

:26:57.:27:05.

the book, doesn't he? Yes, there is a rumour

:27:06.:27:07.

he liked dressing She went to the wardrobe and found

:27:08.:27:11.

items of clothing missing. He's a Frenchman, he

:27:12.:27:24.

tried it all, I think. Some reviewers have seen

:27:25.:27:31.

in the figure of Napoleon perhaps a metaphor for what

:27:32.:27:34.

Australia and many others do with Yes, a number of us

:27:35.:27:37.

have been campaigning for an end to the detention system

:27:38.:27:48.

in Australia, which is a de facto Punishing people for seeking asylum,

:27:49.:27:52.

which is not a crime And I think the same

:27:53.:27:56.

tendency is occurring here But after all they are a problem

:27:57.:27:59.

we partly made by our reckless And we're not, perhaps, the main

:28:00.:28:14.

engines, the tyrants of the main engines of expulsion, but, you know,

:28:15.:28:26.

in solving this problem, they've got Some here have advocated

:28:27.:28:29.

adopting an Australian The writer says that's fine

:28:30.:28:32.

when the normal channels work. But the normal channels

:28:33.:28:38.

of immigration, for all of us, have been swamped

:28:39.:28:40.

by the refugees of the world. We are not as kind in awarding

:28:41.:28:42.

points to people He urges Britain to beware

:28:43.:28:44.

the type of detention centre for unauthorised arrivals

:28:45.:29:00.

that they have down under. The idea of locking

:29:01.:29:05.

up will satisfy about ready percent of the population,

:29:06.:29:08.

but the other 80, you can only get them to bear it,

:29:09.:29:14.

to bear the national shame of it, if you lie

:29:15.:29:16.

about who's in there. I profited from writing books

:29:17.:29:19.

about scapegoating, so I can't sit Look at the snow, look

:29:20.:29:27.

at the snow, look at the I lost a worker, I expect

:29:28.:29:35.

to be compensated. By sheer chance, Tom Keneally heard

:29:36.:29:45.

the story of Oskar Schindler, which became his novel

:29:46.:29:47.

and Steven Spielberg's film. From a Holocaust

:29:48.:29:51.

survivor called Poldek, who was selling him

:29:52.:29:53.

a briefcase at the time. To look at a man like Poldek,

:29:54.:29:58.

a vivid man, he used to say things to Spielberg, Stephen,

:29:59.:30:04.

you can't win an Academy Awards with little furry animals, enough

:30:05.:30:07.

with the little furry animals. And you can't look at a man

:30:08.:30:09.

like that and work out why an entire regime considered that he had

:30:10.:30:17.

to have his oxygen taken away from But all racial hysteria is the great

:30:18.:30:20.

nonsense of history. Before we go, Nick Clegg solicited

:30:21.:30:39.

the ire of our loquacious former London Mayor by suggesting

:30:40.:30:45.

he was "Donald Trump It's not the first time

:30:46.:30:47.

the blonde Brexiteer has been compared to Trump and,

:30:48.:30:53.

if these images are anything to go by, it

:30:54.:30:55.

may not be the last.

:30:56.:30:59.

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