07/03/2017 Newsnight


07/03/2017

Evan Davis reports as Wikileaks appears to release thousands of CIA documents and Theresa May loses a Brexit vote. Plus austerity and the Budget.


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The CIA can apparently do some amazing stuff,

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like turn your TV into a microphone and listen in.

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But now their secret code has leaked.

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This seems to be an incredibly damaging leak in terms of the

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tactics, techniques, procedures and tools that were used by the Central

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intelligence agency to conduct legitimate foreign intelligence.

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If the leaks are real, it's highly embarrassing

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We will ask the journalist Glenn Greenwald whether we should be

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worried by the CIA's ability to hack, or its inability to keep its

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own secrets? Defeat for the Prime

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Minister in the Lords. They want Parliament to vote

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on the final Brexit deal. Does that make sense,

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or screw up the negotiation? Gina Miller and Theresa

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Villiers will tell us. The day before the Budget,

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we're inside Cumbria County Council We can't go on like this. I don't

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think we can continue like this, as councils up and down the country.

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And Viewsnight looks on the bright side of life.

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Now, imagine we were to treat people the way most of us really are.

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Pretty nice. Creative. And more than willing to contribute to the common

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good. We've had the Chelsea Manning leaks,

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then came Edward Snowdon, and today another huge Wikileaks

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data dump - they're calling it Vault 7, and they say it's from a division

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at the heart of the CIA. Thousands of documents,

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millions of lines of code - and, if it is all genuine,

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it shows the extraordinary array of hacking and spying tools

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available to the CIA. Some of it's colourful -

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the ability to infect a Samsung TV and turn it into a microphone that

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records conversations, for example. The British apparently

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helped with that. The CIA won't confirm

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the authenticity of any of it, Is it reasonable for the CIA

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to have these abilities? And the second is, can't the CIA

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guard any of its own secrets? If it is incapable of doing so,

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should it harbour software that could allow massive abuse by those

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with malign intent? The documents are purportedly from

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the CIA's centre. Intelligence. 7918 documents with many attachments.

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Wikileaks say it is only part of what it intends to publish. The rise

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of connected devices has promised intelligence agencies like the CIA a

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new golden age of spy craft, where every home is filled with all sorts

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of objects that can be enlisted to gather data against their owners.

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What Wikileaks have got details of is how the CIA or doing this and the

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very computer code they are using. This seems to be an incredibly

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damaging leak in terms of the tactics, procedures and tools that

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were used by the CIA to conduct legitimate foreign intelligence. In

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other words, it has made my country and my country's friends less safe.

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For example, the Wikileaks document suggests that the CIA have bypassed

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the encryption on android mobile phone messaging apps like WhatsApp,

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and collect audio and messaging traffic before it is encrypted.

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These are wraps which many people used to relay sensitive information

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because they believe they are impenetrable. One technique,

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code-named weeping Angel, can turn a Samsung smart TV in a target's live

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living room can turn it into a microphone. This was apparently

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developed with the help of the UK's GCHQ. Wikileaks say they have got

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hold of millions of lines of computer code, the CIA's tool box of

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tricks and hacks. But, they say, they won't be releasing what they

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call these armed cyber weapons until a consensus emerges on how they can

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be dealt with. How they can be a moist and disarmed. If the data in

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these documents is verified -- how they can be analysed. It will add to

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the damage done to Western intelligence agencies by Chelsea

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Manning and Edward Snowden. We don't know how this information got out.

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One former director believes that a big danger to secrecy is cultural.

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In order to do this kind of stuff, we have to recruit from a certain

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demographic, I don't mean to judge them, there is a group of

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millennials and they simply have different understandings of the

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words loyalty and secrecy and transparency, than certainly my

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generation did. And so we bring these folks into the agency, good

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Americans I can only assume, but again, culturally, they have

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different instincts than the people who made the decision to hire them.

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What has supposedly been leaked suggests no limit to the CIA's

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ambition, like hacking self driving cars as a future weapon for

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assassination. What is likely to be most damaging is that the US

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intelligence agencies as yet can't be sure how many of their secrets

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have been breached. David Grossman. Our Diplomatic Editor,

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Mark Urban, is with me. This leaking is a big issue, Mark.

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How and why and how many people have access to all of this staff? Well,

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the agencies are caught in this terrible place where they've had to

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create huge the violence programmes, let's face it, that's what we're

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talking about, in power in awful lot of people to share that information

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because of the lessons of 9/11 and other systemic failures, they want

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to get across all of that 800,000 plus people are cleared to

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top-secret and higher level code in the US. If even a tiny proportion of

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those or ideological or opposed, greedy, they want to sell the stuff,

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all working for another power, damage can be done. It is getting

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harder for intelligence agencies generally to a tribute or track

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where different, worth and tools... Why take away from my initial read

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of this, the most interesting stuff was this Tom Burridge group, a group

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in the CIA that harvest other states's cyber tactics to use by the

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CIA in deniable attacks. Add to that that we now know that many of these

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cyber attack tools with if you like an American forensic signature are

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in the hands of Wikileaks and who knows who else, and the wilderness

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of mirrors about attributing cyber attacks, who the hell has done this?

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We saw this with the Democrats this last summer, it becomes harder and

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harder to work out. Bruce Schneier is a security

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technologist and Harvard Fellow. I spoke to him earlier,

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and I asked him if this I mean, certainly whenever

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classified documents are released by an intelligence agency,

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it is a disaster. These are particularly sensitive,

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they are hacking tools, And if I was inside the CIA, I would

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call this a disaster as well. We have this leak, it

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seems to be one thing What's happened to the culture

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of secrecy that you would expect It's not the culture of secrecy,

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it's the culture of competing. These documents are on computers,

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they are on networks, They are vulnerable

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for outsiders hacking, they are vulnerable for insiders

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taking them and leaving. And we see this against the CIA,

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the NSA, a Panamanian law firm, the Democratic National Committee,

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climate change researchers, again and again and again -

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individuals, organisations and nation states are hacking these

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documents, and in many cases, Michael Hayden, former

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Director of the CIA, told the BBC earlier that he thought

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there may be something about a kind of a culture

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of the people who you need to recruit to be kind of working

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the computers and devising all these tools in the first place,

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that perhaps they just have a different view of their life

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and their career that say the old spooks did

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say a generation ago. You know, maybe that is

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generalising from one example, from Edward Snowden,

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maybe from two, This is probably an outsider,

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not an insider, like the NSA equation group documents were hacked

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by the Shadow Brokers. You know, it's really

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hard to generalise. The only thing we know is that these

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documents are more vulnerable because there are on networks,

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which means that individuals Now, look, how dangerous is it that

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a lot of these CIA tools are now out How much damage can those

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other people do if those And near as we can tell,

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they've leaked for a while. Wikileaks said that they have been

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passed around for a while. Now we can start getting security,

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now that we know what the attacks are, we can fix these systems

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and be less probable. I mean, yes, it's bad that these

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attacks are out there, The CIA knew that it was most likely

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that other countries did as well. So getting them in the hands

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of the public so they can be fixed is really a measure

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of making things better. Bruce Schneier, thank

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you for talking to me. Bruce also told me he always puts

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something over the cameras on his devices to make sure they are not

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him. Not because of the Russians or the Chinese, but because of teenage

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hackers. And Glenn Greenwald

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is the journalist that campaigns Good evening. Have you seen anything

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in these leaks that make you think the CIA was doing anything wrong?

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Firstly, very significant revelation is that the CIA actively encourages

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and at times even pays various companies and organisations to

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preserve vulnerability that there are able to exploit and a lot of

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these software programmes. So not only they can go through these back

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doors that they make sure exist, but so can hackers, or other nations.

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The CIA and NSA making the internet Moran says for everybody. I think

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that is very disturbing -- more on safe. So maybe they should tell the

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Googles and the apples where the vulnerabilities are rather fun

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exploit them. Have you seen any evidence that this thing on

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televisions or driverless cars, have you seen any evidence that these

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have been applied to good people all merry people, as opposed to what

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President Trump would call the bad hombres -- ordinary people. Do you

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think they have been misusing these tools? One of the problems with

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having a massive surveillance state, intelligence community, that

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operates almost entirely in the dark is that we know very little about

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what they actually do. There is very little accountability war over side,

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which is why when we did this reporting, -- or oversight. Even

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people on the intelligence committee said, we didn't even know that these

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were taking place. So based on the first sort of batch of documents

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that Wikileaks have released, we know the CIA have extraordinary

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abilities that they are exploiting. We don't know against who they are

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using it, but the history of the CIA is one filled with abuse, and we

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ought to know more about why they are using get. Have you really seen

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any thing that surprises you in terms of a skill or a talent or a

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tool that they have? In a lot of ways, this is what you would expect

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a really top-class spying agency to be doing, isn't it? I think some of

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the methods that they use, and the extent of control they are able to

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obtain over people's android phones, the progress that they have made

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into people's iPhones has actually surprised people who work in the

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security field. It's not shocking that the CIA is trying to do it,

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although I don't think a lot of people knew that the CIA has such a

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vast surveillance apparatus. They assumed that the NSA with the agency

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that uses billions of dollars, so that it is rising. It is not

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shocking the CIA is trying, but it has been surprising the way that

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they are in able to invade these devices and take full control of the

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programmes intended to keep them out. The fundamental argument is, do

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we want intelligence agencies who can do clever stuff to spy on people

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from abroad, preferably, who are doing or mean us harm, or do we not

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want intelligence agencies to do that? We have always come back to

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this and I have spoken to you about it before. In the end, if you are

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going to have intelligence agencies, you have to let them get on with the

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job and you can't expect them to stand by telling you what they are

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doing because it isn't going to work if they do that. Yes, I think you

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know, there is an absolutist way to look at things, which is very

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simplified. Either they get full secrecy or they have none. And then

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there's a more sophisticated way to look at it, which we as journalists

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ought to be adopting, which is, yes, you need some degree of secrecy, but

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in a democracy, secrecy is extremely corrosive and they dress. And for

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agencies that we have allowed to operate almost entirely in the dark,

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as journalists, our objective ought to be to report on what they are

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doing and cheer from one both is transparency, -- for when there is

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transparency. That the government try to protect secrecy. As

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journalists we ought to be devoted to telling the public what these

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people are doing. Some people say WikiLeaks have been

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strangely related to Trump, do you think there's anything strange about

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the timing of this, another difficult week for President Trump

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and this whole fuss about President Obama and did he tap him. Is this a

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distraction? It is funny because we always like to look at Russian media

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and the Arab world and mock them for conspiracies and yet we in the West

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have are conspiracies. There was a weird timing issues with WikiLeaks,

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intended to distract, there is always important news going on.

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WikiLeaks published this material not in a particularly sensitive

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week. I can assure you it takes some time to process this material and

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unless we have evidence that WikiLeaks manipulated the timing I

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do not think we should be assuming that that took place. I do not know

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of any evidence that says anything like that happened.

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Theresa May suffered the embarrassment of defeat today.

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The Lords voted - with a majority of just under 100 -

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to insist Parliament has the final "meaningful vote" on the deal

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The PM will whip her MPs to try and overturn this defeat

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when the Bill comes back to the Commons - probably next week.

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Now Theresa May is hailed as the most unassailable prime

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minister we've had for years, a weak opposition, a united party.

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But, think a little on it, and you remember she has only

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a small majority in the Commons - so she's vulnerable on all sorts

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of thorny issues such as Brexit, grammar schools and us

:16:26.:16:28.

That's why some colleagues - including William Hague

:16:29.:16:31.

in his Telegraph column today - have said she should call a general

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How popular is that opinion amongst conservatives? Downing Street if the

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William Hague idea short shrift but something of a debate going on

:16:58.:17:01.

involving members of the cabinet about whether an early election may

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be a good idea. These Cabinet ministers accept and respect Theresa

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May? Opinion that an election now would be wrong, they say if you did

:17:11.:17:15.

it right now it would seem as if you were doing it for the benefit of the

:17:16.:17:20.

Conservative Party, exploiting Labour Party witnesses at a bad

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moment for the Labour Party. But these ministers said that over the

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next couple of years you may be able to mount an argument that it is in

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the national interest to hold an election before the due date in 2024

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the they are identified as when the government seeks to introduce the

:17:37.:17:40.

great repeal bill, the legislation that will annul the legislation

:17:41.:17:42.

underpinning our membership of the EU and it will put all that EU

:17:43.:17:48.

legislation, into UK law and then the UK will be able to decide which

:17:49.:17:52.

bits of that legislation it wants to keep. I'm told his ministers have

:17:53.:17:57.

identified a couple of danger points with that legislation. Number one is

:17:58.:18:02.

when it is in the House of Lords, we have seen the House of Lords this

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week bearing their teeth and there was a feeling in government circles

:18:06.:18:11.

that if the Commons could overturn those amendments Bumble laud them

:18:12.:18:13.

that the Lords would throw in the towel and not want to be accused of

:18:14.:18:16.

thwarting the will of the people on Brexit. There will be no such qualms

:18:17.:18:19.

on the great repeal Bill, they think, and the second danger

:18:20.:18:23.

identified by ministers is that the Scottish Parliament may say that

:18:24.:18:26.

under the original devolution settlement that great repeal Bill

:18:27.:18:28.

would need their consent. As I said, there are a whole series

:18:29.:18:32.

of issues that the Prime Minister may be vulnerable on with such

:18:33.:18:35.

a small majority. A busy College Green

:18:36.:18:37.

here in Westminster is a sign that something

:18:38.:18:41.

is about to happen in Parliament. Tomorrow is budget day,

:18:42.:18:46.

which is a day when the government The whole structure of the day

:18:47.:18:48.

really favours the people in power. It also comes as the Conservative

:18:49.:18:57.

Party's racking up enormous poll leads, consistently in double digits

:18:58.:19:00.

over the Labour Party. But might that mean

:19:01.:19:05.

that we are overstating just how strong Theresa May's

:19:06.:19:07.

position really is? Critically, take a look at the Lords

:19:08.:19:12.

where the government does As of tonight, Theresa May has lost

:19:13.:19:14.

24 votes in the Upper House. Well, we look at issues where we can

:19:15.:19:25.

make a difference and perhaps persuade the House of Commons

:19:26.:19:28.

and the government to think again. Things like the Housing Bill,

:19:29.:19:30.

we've asked the government On trade union legislation,

:19:31.:19:32.

on education. And indeed some of

:19:33.:19:35.

the aspects of Brexit. Indeed, just this evening,

:19:36.:19:38.

the Lords have defeated They've passed an amendment

:19:39.:19:40.

demanding what they call "a meaningful vote" by parliament

:19:41.:19:47.

on the terms of Brexit One of two Lords amendments

:19:48.:19:50.

on the Brexit bill. Everyone in this House knows

:19:51.:19:58.

that we now face the most momentous And this amendment as the Noble Lord

:19:59.:20:01.

has so clearly set out, secures in law the government's

:20:02.:20:10.

commitment, already made to another place, to ensure that Parliament

:20:11.:20:14.

is the ultimate custodian I am in a minority in this House

:20:15.:20:16.

because I support the views of the majority of people

:20:17.:20:28.

in this country. This House is absolutely full

:20:29.:20:32.

of people who still haven't come to terms with the results

:20:33.:20:35.

of the referendum. Well, the effect of these

:20:36.:20:36.

votes is to reopen And so potentially re-empower rebel

:20:37.:20:40.

Tory backbenchers to negotiate If we take the Article 50 Bill,

:20:41.:20:43.

there were small numbers of Conservative rebels on some key

:20:44.:20:51.

issues when the bill went Notably on the rights of EU

:20:52.:20:53.

citizens to remain in the UK and on the Parliamentary vote

:20:54.:20:59.

at the end of the process. It is no coincidence that those

:21:00.:21:02.

are the issues that the Lords has taken up very strongly

:21:03.:21:05.

and is seeking to throw back to the Commons to ask

:21:06.:21:07.

the Commons to think again. And what it is doing really there

:21:08.:21:11.

is facilitating those negotiations If the backbenchers are satisfied,

:21:12.:21:14.

she will get her way. She may need to offer them

:21:15.:21:19.

more assurances in order Theresa May will ask MPs to overturn

:21:20.:21:22.

the peers' amendments. And it is plausible she might not

:21:23.:21:27.

win both of those votes. And that is why the Lords could

:21:28.:21:30.

trouble the government so much. They complain oh, we haven't

:21:31.:21:39.

got the majority, well, this is the first Conservative

:21:40.:21:41.

government never to have had an automatic majority

:21:42.:21:43.

in the House of Lords. But no Labour government ever had

:21:44.:21:45.

a majority in the House of Lords, you win your case, you persuade,

:21:46.:21:48.

you articulate, you make that case. And that is what the government

:21:49.:21:51.

needs to understand and needs to do. But some Tories want

:21:52.:21:59.

a quick election. They say it could mean

:22:00.:22:01.

a bigger Commons majority. And peers don't pick fights

:22:02.:22:03.

over items once they've But at least for now,

:22:04.:22:05.

the government is grinding on. And once the Brexit negotiation

:22:06.:22:09.

starts, a voluntary election Well, as you heard, one test

:22:10.:22:11.

of the Prime Minister's strength comes next week, when Remainer MPs

:22:12.:22:20.

have to decide whether to support her on the Brexit Bill -

:22:21.:22:23.

or to side with the Lords, The issue is whether Parliament

:22:24.:22:26.

should get a meaningful vote on any I'm joined by Gina Miller,

:22:27.:22:31.

who famously brought the legal case for Parliament to have a vote

:22:32.:22:36.

on Article 50. And Theresa Villiers is here -

:22:37.:22:39.

former Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers, as we were

:22:40.:22:53.

watching that Lord Heseltine has been sacked as a government adviser

:22:54.:22:58.

because he rebelled on the bill. Is that showing a kind of sensitivity

:22:59.:23:03.

to all this, a bit of brittleness question what Michael Heseltine was

:23:04.:23:06.

a long serving member of the Conservative Party but he's very

:23:07.:23:12.

much out line with the majority feeling within the Conservative

:23:13.:23:16.

Party and indeed within the country. He's not even a member of the

:23:17.:23:21.

government, just an adviser. But you have two kind of show how tough the

:23:22.:23:26.

discipline is going to be? I do not know the circumstances but I think

:23:27.:23:31.

it was always inevitable when he was rebelling on such a crucially

:23:32.:23:35.

important issue. Gina Miller, the idea of a vote at the end of the

:23:36.:23:39.

process, is it the case that you would like parliament to have the

:23:40.:23:43.

option if they do not like the deal Theresa May comes back with, is it

:23:44.:23:53.

the case you would like them to have the option to say let's just take in

:23:54.:23:56.

the EU or have a referendum on staying in rather than going through

:23:57.:23:58.

with Brexit? It is not about what I want, and it is not at the end of

:23:59.:24:02.

the process but in 18 months. We're not talking about the great repeal

:24:03.:24:04.

act, it is in 18 months when Theresa May comes back with that negotiated

:24:05.:24:08.

package. It is only right that Parliament should be involved in

:24:09.:24:11.

that process, that is what my case was about and what all the

:24:12.:24:16.

Brexiteers talked about, Parliamentary sovereignty and

:24:17.:24:19.

parliament having the right to vote and debate. That is what is so great

:24:20.:24:23.

about the House of Lords, they showed it could be done as a level

:24:24.:24:27.

that is civilised and grown up and you could respect the point of view

:24:28.:24:31.

of other people. Are you thinking about another legal case, if two is

:24:32.:24:35.

a major says I'm not interested and I'm going to eat the House of Lords,

:24:36.:24:40.

are you thinking another legal case on this would be due? If you go back

:24:41.:24:47.

to the judgment in my case that the Supreme Court it said only

:24:48.:24:49.

parliament could take away or diminish people's rights. In 18

:24:50.:24:55.

months we will not know what whites have been taken away because we do

:24:56.:24:58.

not have a crystal ball, we do not know what the package will be. If

:24:59.:25:01.

you look at the judgment there is some thinking that if Theresa May

:25:02.:25:06.

bypasses the parliament and does not deliver on a promise, if this

:25:07.:25:09.

amendment does not get in, that there could be a case for us to take

:25:10.:25:15.

back to Parliament, sorry, to the court and say could she act on her

:25:16.:25:18.

own without parliament. Theresa Villiers, I suspect that is not what

:25:19.:25:21.

you want to hear because that would mean a legal argument right at the

:25:22.:25:26.

climax of article 50 negotiations. That is one of the real anxieties

:25:27.:25:30.

about these amendments. Any amendment to what is a simple bill

:25:31.:25:37.

makes it potentially dragging on into the courts. I believe that

:25:38.:25:44.

particularly the amendment passed today is a recipe for stalemate and

:25:45.:25:50.

disruption. I'm sure Gina Miller is entirely sincere in what she's doing

:25:51.:25:54.

but I think many people who backed this amendment today in the House of

:25:55.:25:57.

Lords in the heart of hearts are trying to frustrate the process.

:25:58.:26:01.

They have given themselves the power to veto a to veto leaving without a

:26:02.:26:06.

deal, essentially what they want is to keep us in and this respect the

:26:07.:26:12.

vote. There is a bit of a puzzle, they said they want to be able to

:26:13.:26:17.

veto a non-deal or deal, it could end up just in a twilight zone.

:26:18.:26:22.

Actually the House of Lords cannot do a veto, they can scrutinise and

:26:23.:26:25.

give their opinion but they cannot actually veto something. But if we

:26:26.:26:31.

get back, I do not understand why there's so much of this argument

:26:32.:26:35.

about holding up Brexit because it is the Prime Minister and the

:26:36.:26:38.

government holding up Brexit. Just putting these one is morally right

:26:39.:26:43.

and the other is common sense to have a parliamentary safety net. Put

:26:44.:26:48.

both in and stop the ping-pong between the houses, trigger Article

:26:49.:26:50.

50 and get on with complex negotiations. It is government

:26:51.:26:56.

itself holding up this process. EU nationals, I entirely sympathise

:26:57.:26:59.

with the sentiment of the amendment, but this is not the vehicle to deal

:27:00.:27:03.

with this question. It has to be dealt with by laterally as part of

:27:04.:27:08.

negotiations. It makes the end of the process unmanageable, if the

:27:09.:27:13.

executive does not have the power to save this is the deal or we walk out

:27:14.:27:17.

which is effectively what Theresa May wants to be able to do this

:27:18.:27:22.

right with the amendment this evening a key defect is that it

:27:23.:27:26.

seeks to prevent the Prime Minister from deciding the deal on the table

:27:27.:27:29.

is not good enough and I will go back recommending leaving without a

:27:30.:27:34.

deal. Not being able to walk away from negotiations means that Europe

:27:35.:27:39.

has you over a barrel. I'm afraid we need to leave it there. That is the

:27:40.:27:43.

nub of the argument that has been raging on. Thank you both.

:27:44.:27:45.

Well, austerity may have been pushed out of the headlines lately,

:27:46.:27:48.

but anyone working in a local authority knows that cuts to council

:27:49.:27:51.

So to help get us all in the mood for tomorrow's Budget,

:27:52.:27:55.

we embedded Katie Razzall with Cumbria County Council -

:27:56.:27:59.

one of those hoping for a sliver of help from the Chancellor.

:28:00.:28:12.

We are in uncharted territory, really, for local government.

:28:13.:28:22.

Sparsely populated, flood-prone Cumbria.

:28:23.:28:24.

A county where cuts now threaten real upset,

:28:25.:28:29.

I think local government is experiencing an existential crisis.

:28:30.:28:40.

In Cumbria, what we're looking at really is what I would

:28:41.:28:43.

Stuart Young is the leader of Cumbria County Council.

:28:44.:28:47.

I joined him this morning at the start of his day.

:28:48.:28:50.

A Labour politician at the helm as the eighth year

:28:51.:28:53.

We have already had to make ?198 million worth of savings since 2010.

:28:54.:29:03.

If there is anything that keeps me awake at night,

:29:04.:29:08.

it is, how are we going to find the rest of those savings?

:29:09.:29:11.

Whilst protecting services as much as we possibly can.

:29:12.:29:14.

The council must cut another ?52 million in the next three years.

:29:15.:29:22.

An accountant by trade, for Mr Young, the numbers no longer add up.

:29:23.:29:26.

He agreed to allow Newsnight to accompany him to work

:29:27.:29:34.

where the Labour group run the County Council in a coalition

:29:35.:29:36.

Adult social care is now the largest part of our budget.

:29:37.:29:43.

I mean, obviously, like everywhere else, people are living longer.

:29:44.:29:46.

The problems are not just in social care.

:29:47.:29:50.

And the Council has already made cuts across the board,

:29:51.:29:53.

This is our first proper meeting, I guess.

:29:54.:30:08.

The Government wants local authorities to

:30:09.:30:09.

At the moment, it plans to stop its funding grant

:30:10.:30:13.

I think officers are really keen to see what emerges tomorrow

:30:14.:30:17.

It is meeting after meeting for the leader.

:30:18.:30:26.

This with the Councillor in charge of adult social care,

:30:27.:30:29.

which costs the authority around ?200 million a year.

:30:30.:30:34.

I think it is biting everyday now when a new referral comes

:30:35.:30:37.

Can you keep providing a good service to people

:30:38.:30:40.

I think the answer to that has to be no.

:30:41.:30:49.

When you've got demand growing year-on-year.

:30:50.:30:54.

There has to be a limit on how much you can take out without it

:30:55.:30:57.

being clearly felt by the recipients of that service.

:30:58.:31:02.

You can tell someone tall has been here, Joyce!

:31:03.:31:04.

She is only able to stay in her own home with the help

:31:05.:31:23.

I can get to the cooker, but I can't reach it.

:31:24.:31:30.

So they do my meals, so I find it about right four times a day.

:31:31.:31:37.

What does it mean to you to have this care?

:31:38.:31:40.

I would probably have to go into permanent care otherwise.

:31:41.:31:51.

I think it's terrible that the cutting is happening.

:31:52.:31:56.

My mum and dad, what if they don't get care, I can't imagine no one

:31:57.:32:00.

getting the standard of care that we give to our clients.

:32:01.:32:03.

Joyce, are you OK if I go through your care plan and just

:32:04.:32:06.

Heather runs one of the companies contracted

:32:07.:32:08.

You have male and female carers, and you're happy with all of them?

:32:09.:32:16.

If you think about it, they haven't got anything I want,

:32:17.:32:21.

and I haven't got anything they want any more!

:32:22.:32:23.

The council here is putting up council tax, in part to raise

:32:24.:32:27.

But in these rural counties, it's more expensive to provide.

:32:28.:32:38.

The council is keeping its cards close to its chest ahead

:32:39.:32:42.

But not everyone agrees crisis point is upon them.

:32:43.:32:45.

When we were in control, we saved ?55 million

:32:46.:32:47.

There was a lot of fat there to be cut.

:32:48.:32:51.

And this administration, this current administration has

:32:52.:32:58.

wasted millions upon millions of pounds worth of taxpayers' money.

:32:59.:33:01.

So there's still money out there to be found,

:33:02.:33:03.

I think as we look forward to the next three years

:33:04.:33:11.

and possibly beyond, I think many of us are

:33:12.:33:13.

wondering really where this is all going to end.

:33:14.:33:15.

I think local government is experiencing an existential crisis.

:33:16.:33:21.

And it is difficult to see how some of the services

:33:22.:33:24.

are going to survive at all in the face

:33:25.:33:26.

We are briefly going to go back to the breaking news is that we

:33:27.:33:41.

mentioned earlier that Michael has so kind has been sacked as a

:33:42.:33:45.

Government adviser after rebelling on the Brexit vote. Why did they do

:33:46.:33:52.

it, Nick? The man who brought down Britain's first woman Prime Minister

:33:53.:33:56.

has just been sacked by Britain's second woman Prime Minister! He had

:33:57.:34:01.

five jobs, apparently. They are absolutely determined that this

:34:02.:34:05.

bill, which Michael has all kinds or to amend, must emerge completely

:34:06.:34:12.

clean. -- had sought to amend. If there were any weaknesses to be

:34:13.:34:17.

exploited by our negotiating partners, and we can turn to the son

:34:18.:34:21.

of an old ally of Michael has all-time was Mike, Robin Walker, the

:34:22.:34:27.

son of the Peter Walker, he is saying that if as the lords did

:34:28.:34:31.

tonight you will allow Parliament to have the right to veto the bill,

:34:32.:34:35.

that would create all sorts of problems that would be exploited by

:34:36.:34:36.

Michel Barnier. And tonight, we have the young Dutch

:34:37.:34:38.

writer, Rutger Bregman to offer us an optimistic take

:34:39.:34:42.

on the state of humankind. He's a man with a lot of ideas -

:34:43.:34:44.

the writer of a book called Utopia for Realists,

:34:45.:34:47.

we'll speak to him It's time to assume

:34:48.:34:49.

the good in each other. I've got two minutes

:34:50.:34:56.

to remind you of the most If you start paying attention,

:34:57.:34:59.

you see it everywhere. Rutger Bregman, author

:35:00.:36:59.

of Utopia for Realists. The book reflects his optimistic

:37:00.:37:02.

take - but is a kind of manifesto It suggests a much

:37:03.:37:05.

shorter working week, and a basic income -

:37:06.:37:11.

paid to everyone, That's the Utopia bit,

:37:12.:37:13.

less clear on the realism. Is it? Well, I suppose on the basic

:37:14.:37:29.

income, a lot of people have tried to make it work and do the maths on

:37:30.:37:34.

it. You have to leave it so low that you leave a lot of people very poor,

:37:35.:37:39.

or so high that you can't afford it. I don't think so. Basic income is

:37:40.:37:43.

the least radical of the ideas in my book. We have a lot of evidence from

:37:44.:37:49.

the 70s, in Canada they did an experiment for four years, they

:37:50.:37:52.

found that people got healthier, and didn't quit their jobs. People have

:37:53.:37:57.

a lot of objections. It was a town near Winnipeg. It was subsidised

:37:58.:38:03.

from the outside, that one. It wasn't self financing. The

:38:04.:38:06.

government paid for the basic income. As soon as you have a system

:38:07.:38:10.

where there isn't an outsider, you know, a Martian to come in and pay

:38:11.:38:14.

for it all, it is very different, isn't it? I don't think so. If you

:38:15.:38:23.

look at poverty, for example. It is hugely expensive, in terms of higher

:38:24.:38:25.

health care spending, crime, high dropout rates. A study in the US

:38:26.:38:29.

found that it costs about $500 billion, just child poverty, and it

:38:30.:38:34.

will cost us billions to eradicate poverty completely. It is easier to

:38:35.:38:38.

get rid of it and keep on combating it. You are giving me a subsidy but

:38:39.:38:44.

I don't need one. But you are paying for it, don't worry! Then you have

:38:45.:38:49.

very high taxes, and people like me might say, why am I giving this

:38:50.:38:55.

money and paying an 80% tax rate? That is why nobody has ever done it.

:38:56.:38:59.

People have really looked at it and they have come very close. Many

:39:00.:39:06.

people see this as a leftist idea. Milton Friedman, the neoliberal

:39:07.:39:09.

economist, was in favour of this. The right-wing government in Finland

:39:10.:39:14.

is experimenting with it right now. A Conservative senator in Canada is

:39:15.:39:17.

proposing another experiment. Another experiment is going on in

:39:18.:39:22.

Kenya Rednall. Especially after 2016, we need new ideas. That

:39:23.:39:30.

everybody agrees with. We have a lot of evidence from experiments that it

:39:31.:39:33.

is effective, efficient, and we use the money very well. Health care

:39:34.:39:37.

costs go down. Slightly narrower experiments that don't necessarily

:39:38.:39:40.

pay for themselves. You are proposing a 15 hour week as well.

:39:41.:39:45.

That makes it doubly hard to pay for my basic income, because we are all

:39:46.:39:50.

going to be working half as much. I think we need to completely redefine

:39:51.:39:55.

woodworker actually is. So nowadays, according to a recent poll, -- what

:39:56.:40:00.

work actually is. 70% of British workers think that they have a job

:40:01.:40:06.

but doesn't need to exist. It is a waste of time, money and energy.

:40:07.:40:12.

What is going on here that you know, a 28-year-old. Piazon, note that

:40:13.:40:16.

these jobs are not needed. It is not me saying that -- a 28-year-old

:40:17.:40:21.

Dutch person know that these jobs are not needed. Somebody is saying,

:40:22.:40:26.

I'm going to employ these people because it is going to make me or my

:40:27.:40:30.

company money or my country rich. Why do you think we have a huge

:40:31.:40:35.

financial sector? They don't create any well. We have so much energy and

:40:36.:40:40.

talent being wasted right now. What are the bankers going to do? And

:40:41.:40:43.

what is the process where you are going to work out what they are

:40:44.:40:47.

doing? What is the mechanism, is its central planning or a market? If it

:40:48.:40:53.

is a market, they will go straight back into banking. These ideas go

:40:54.:40:57.

through the political divide lying between the left and the right. The

:40:58.:41:00.

left doesn't trust people to make their own choices, and the right

:41:01.:41:03.

things that people have to be forced into work or something else. I think

:41:04.:41:07.

people know perfectly well what to do with their lives. We are not

:41:08.:41:12.

going to live in a big giant commune. What is the bankers going

:41:13.:41:16.

to do, and what is the process going to tell him what to do? It is

:41:17.:41:21.

interesting, you get the stories in magazines, you have got a very rich

:41:22.:41:24.

guy who might decide to quit his job and do what he really wants to. We

:41:25.:41:29.

see it as coming he is a hero coming he's going to do what he really

:41:30.:41:32.

wants to do. What I'm proposing is in a society where that's just

:41:33.:41:37.

completely natural, where we are all trying to contribute in our own way

:41:38.:41:40.

and do what we actually want to do. And that is why it is called Utopia

:41:41.:41:41.

for Realists. Thank you very much. I'm back tomorrow,

:41:42.:41:45.

which is of course Budget Day. Hello. A spell of rain tonight will

:41:46.:42:05.

clear many parts of the UK tomorrow but by no means

:42:06.:42:06.

Evan Davis reports as Wikileaks appears to release thousands of CIA documents and Theresa May loses a Brexit vote. Plus austerity and the Budget, and a Viewsnight report on why we should be nice.


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