03/04/2017 Newsnight


03/04/2017

With Kirsty Wark. An exclusive interview with Obama's CIA director, John Brennan. Plus, the latest on the Russia terror attack, the new diesel tax and Darcus Howe.


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Transcript


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Tonight, an exclusive interview with John Brennan,

:00:00.:00:00.

the head of the CIA, until Donald Trump

:00:07.:00:07.

What does he think of the presidential Twitter strategy?

:00:08.:00:14.

I think that there are some things that have been tweeted coming out of

:00:15.:00:23.

Washington, where the care was not taken and that was, it was not, the

:00:24.:00:30.

individual who tweeted it was not mindful of the importance that

:00:31.:00:32.

people attach to the words of a president.

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He warns about the dangers of America going it alone

:00:36.:00:37.

against North Korea and tells us there should be a competency

:00:38.:00:40.

-- and decries Trump's plans for a travel ban.

:00:41.:00:43.

The St Petersburg blast, which has killed as many as ten people

:00:44.:00:46.

The Russian Prime minister is nvestigating a suicide bombing.

:00:47.:00:51.

We'll ask who is the prime suspect in a country with no

:00:52.:00:54.

We remember the civil rights ( activist Darcus Howe.

:00:55.:01:03.

I believe that we are faced with a serious potential, that is the

:01:04.:01:10.

overwhelming intervention of blacks on the current stage of history in

:01:11.:01:12.

Britain. And the war on airborne

:01:13.:01:15.

Deisel particulates. The Mayor of London is expected

:01:16.:01:17.

to announce tomorrow morning a toxin tax on the fuel,

:01:18.:01:21.

forcing drivers to pay In the studio, a former Top Gear

:01:22.:01:23.

presenter says it's all nonsense. Friends of the Earth

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says it's about time. He was Barack Obama's head

:01:29.:01:38.

of the CIA - in the situation room -- he departed office the day Donald

:01:39.:01:44.

Trump became president. John Brennan will deliver

:01:45.:01:49.

the Dimbleby Lecture on BBC One tomorrow night,

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but tonight, he talks to Newsnight about the threat from North Korea,

:01:51.:01:53.

and whether Donald Trump's promise of US unilateral action is wise

:01:54.:01:57.

if China will not help. He is scathing about the president's

:01:58.:02:00.

proposed ban on travellers from certain Muslim countries,

:02:01.:02:03.

and he told us the Trump White House notion of a deep state -

:02:04.:02:06.

including the intelligence agencies I began by asking him

:02:07.:02:08.

if President Trump was right to say that if China won't solve the issue

:02:09.:02:15.

of North Korea, America will do. North Korea does pose a very serious

:02:16.:02:27.

challenge for The Asian region and for the world because of its

:02:28.:02:32.

continued march on a nuclear weapons programme. China holds a lot of sway

:02:33.:02:36.

with North Korea. I think it's critically important for the United

:02:37.:02:41.

States to continue and to deepen the discussion with China about how best

:02:42.:02:44.

to manage this North Korean challenge. But the North Korean

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issue is a complicated and complex one. It doesn't lend itself to

:02:49.:02:53.

simple solutions. There's no the a simple military solution to it,

:02:54.:02:57.

given that North Korea has a tremendous amount of fire power,

:02:58.:03:02.

artillery that could rain down on Seoul, if there was going to be

:03:03.:03:06.

military action. So I am just hoping that Mr Trump and his advisors have

:03:07.:03:13.

spent the last couple months really learning and understanding what the

:03:14.:03:18.

challenge is, what the implications are of certain policy courses. This

:03:19.:03:23.

is something that requires a very thoughtful and measure add preach.

:03:24.:03:29.

President Trump says that using the term "radical Islamic terrorism"

:03:30.:03:33.

will help win the US win the War on Terror, do you agree? No, I don't. A

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lot of people say that. When you refer to the terrorists as following

:03:39.:03:45.

radical Islam, it legitimises the terrorists, in terms that they're

:03:46.:03:49.

actually carrying out a legitimate tenant of the Islamic faith and

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they're not. Do you think that Donald Trump's proposed ban on

:03:55.:03:58.

several Muslim majority countries would make America safer? I think

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it's very important that there be measures taken to protect countries

:04:05.:04:10.

from individuals who may be trying to enter the borders for terrorist

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purposes. This proposed executive order really, I think, was too

:04:16.:04:19.

simplistic and misguided. Do you think it would be counterproductive?

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I do. Because first of all, a lot of citizens from those countries, who

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have very legitimate reason to travel to the United States, family,

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personal, professional, educational. I think they will really see this as

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reflecting a different approach and a different tone from the United

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States, which has prided itself over our 241 years welcoming people from

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all walks of life in all countries and to me, I think they're going to

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see it as profiling specifically nationalities. US intelligence is

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suggesting that WikiLeaks are helping the Russiansment do you

:05:00.:05:02.

think Julian Assange is unwittingly being used by the Russians? He may

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be unwittingly being used by the Russians but I think he's wittingly

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advancing Russian interests and making sure that their objectives

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and goals and agendas are being pursued. Maybe he is naive enough or

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uninformed enough that he is being duped by the Russians. I think he is

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well aware that he is a pawn in their hands. Why do you think Donald

:05:30.:05:34.

Trump's so well disposed to Vladimir Putin? You'd have to ask him. Have

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you actually seen evidence that the Russians have been compromising

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material, for example, what the Russians call compromat on Trump for

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example. There are active investigations about Russian

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involvement in the last presidential election. There are two

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investigations in the Congress as well as FBI investigations. I am

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going to leave to them to make determinations about what the

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Russians did or what they might have. Actually when Trump says only

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the fake news media think his team were included with Russia. Clearly

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you're not ruling this out either. These are ongoing investigations.

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Just like the chairman of the Senate intelligence committee, involved in

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the investigation, said it would be premature at this time to make any

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determination or rule anything out. The British Home Secretary said that

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the Government should be given access to what's April, another end

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to -- what's app, an encryption service. Do you think she's right?

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There needs to be a way for the Government to work with these

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companies, such as what's app, so the Government can carry out its

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responsibilities to protect society and to carry out the rule of law.

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When there are these very sophisticated technologies it really

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impedes the Government's ability to protect its citizens. The lecture

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you're giving tomorrow you're saying clearly that you're concerned about

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the pretense of some poll -- competence of some politicians to

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enter positions of authorities that don't have the skills for carrying

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out their solemn governmental responsibility with competence,

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integrity and efficacy. Who are you thinking of? I can think of a lot of

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government leaders around the world who arrive in those positions

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without the needed experience, the needed knowledge to carry out these

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responsibilities in a very complicated world. You talk about a

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variety of people you might, the kinds of people that you might be

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talking about. You said if this person came from, even in an

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unrelated celebrity inducing field. I mean you're being coy. You're

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talking about Donald Trump, aren't you? I am expressing my views and

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concerns about how important these government positions and leadership

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positions are and how we as societies need to have confidence

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that the individuals who have such power and authority are up to the

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task. Was Donald Trump right to tweet his accusation that President

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Obama wiretapped him before the election, was he right to say that?

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I guess a president can say whatever he wants, particularly one that

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tweets. I think that there is a solemn obligation on the part of an

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individual, such as the president, to tweet or to message information

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that is accurate, that is - that is measured and that is not just a

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spontaneous or impulsive number of words that they're trying to say. I

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think that there are some things that have been tweeted, coming out

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of Washington, where the care was not taken and the individual who

:09:12.:09:16.

tweet today was not mindful of the importance that people attach to the

:09:17.:09:20.

words of a president. Donald Trump would say that the real story that's

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going on, what's going on just now, is leaks for the intelligence

:09:24.:09:29.

community not the team's alleged links with Russia, is he right? He

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is certainly right that these leaks are appalling. They need to stop.

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Any unauthorised disclosure of classified information is something

:09:40.:09:42.

that needs to be addressed. One of Donald Trump's first outings when he

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became president was to make a speech in front of the CIA memorial.

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He talked about his disputed inauguration attendance figures

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rather than actually paying tribute to the CIA agents who had fallen in

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the course of duty. What went through your mind when you saw that?

:10:00.:10:05.

That wall of honour is hallowed ground for the agency. I know many

:10:06.:10:10.

of the individuals who are represented on that wall with those

:10:11.:10:17.

stars. So, when I saw Mr Trump up there, talking about politics, it

:10:18.:10:20.

really struck a nerve and it was not just my nerve that was struck. Many

:10:21.:10:25.

of my colleagues, former and current employees of the CIA, felt that was

:10:26.:10:30.

something that should not have taken place. I felt I had to give voice to

:10:31.:10:36.

the concerns of agency officers, which I did. Because you criticised

:10:37.:10:41.

Donald Trump for comparing Intel agencies to Nazi Germany. I wonder

:10:42.:10:45.

how that was received by the intelligence agency, not what you

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said, what he said. The intelligence professionals at CIA and other parts

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of the community take great pride in their work. They don't do it for

:10:53.:10:58.

public ack La mags or ticker tape parades -- acclamation. They do it

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silently and most times their great work is never known. When there is

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criticism and baseless criticism and imPuning the integrity, the mission

:11:11.:11:15.

of intelligence officers, yeah, intelligence officers take up bridge

:11:16.:11:22.

at that. -- umbridge. The White House all but accused GCHQ of

:11:23.:11:26.

helping President Obama wiretap Donald Trump. I mean, was that

:11:27.:11:30.

justified? Did it damage the five eyes alliance? Again, there are a

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lot of things that have been said and tweeted and whatever that I just

:11:38.:11:42.

- I am mystified over. As to why they were done. If at the end of

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these investigations, into the leaks, it is found that there has

:11:47.:11:51.

been leaks by CIA officers themselves, they will undermine

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their own organisation. They will undermine the organisation that

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you've served for all these years, if that's found to be the case.

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Anybody who releases classified information, whether it be to a

:12:02.:12:05.

foreign intelligence service or to the media, to me, is carrying out a

:12:06.:12:08.

treasonous act against their country. They should be held to

:12:09.:12:14.

account. There have been instances where CIA officers in the past, just

:12:15.:12:19.

like British intelligence officers of the past, have gone bad. The deep

:12:20.:12:25.

state. Well, no. These are individuals who have violated their

:12:26.:12:27.

Oath of Office. You don't believe in the deep state? I do not, absolutely

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not. That's ridiculous that there's a deep state trying to undermine

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either the credibility of the presidency or is trying to pursue

:12:37.:12:40.

other policies. That's what Donald Trump and Steve Bannon thinks.

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Anybody who thinks there is a deep state and the CIA is part of it in

:12:45.:12:49.

the US government is delusional. Thank you very much indeed. Thank

:12:50.:12:50.

you very much. The former Director of the CIA

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talking to me this afternoon. We'll put up the whole of that

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interview with John Brennan on Newsnight's YouTube

:12:57.:12:58.

channel later on. And you can see his Richard Dimbleby

:12:59.:13:00.

Lecture on BBC One tomorrow night. At 2.30pm in Russia's second city,

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a suspected bomb detonated on a metro train, killing at least

:13:05.:13:07.

ten people and injuring many more. St Petersburg is Vladimir Putin's

:13:08.:13:13.

home town, and tonight he laid Russia is used to terror attacks by

:13:14.:13:27.

Chechen separatists. But the country's involvement in Syria has

:13:28.:13:30.

also brought threats from IS propaganda groups.

:13:31.:13:35.

Here's John Sweeney with what we know, and a warning

:13:36.:13:38.

that his film does contain some upsetting images.

:13:39.:13:44.

The fog of terror in St Petersburg metro today.

:13:45.:13:46.

The bomb packed with shrapnel was powerful enough

:13:47.:13:48.

This is the moment passengers struggled to escape

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Long before the authorities arrived, passengers did their best

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11 dead, 50 injured and little clarity on the big questions.

:14:23.:14:26.

A bomb on the tube train travelling between Sennaya Ploshchad

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and Tekhnologichesky Institut stations, exploded.

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Another device was defused at a nearby station.

:14:39.:14:40.

Relatives were desperate to hear news from the missing.

:14:41.:14:51.

TRANSLATION: She was supposed to have left school by three

:14:52.:14:53.

I talked to a couple of witnesses who were more or less OK,

:14:54.:14:58.

They said that people were trying to help each other,

:14:59.:15:01.

to get out of this hell as fast as possible.

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Terror attacks against ordinary people on tubes, trains and planes

:15:05.:15:06.

Feeding conspiracy theories but the Kremlin itself might be

:15:07.:15:10.

Feeding conspiracy theories that the Kremlin itself might be

:15:11.:15:12.

But the most likely culprits are attackers

:15:13.:15:16.

My immediate suspicion is to look towards Islamist networks

:15:17.:15:25.

these sort of attacks in Russia, against public transport in this

:15:26.:15:41.

sort of co-ordinated fashion, it would seem insting stingtively

:15:42.:15:44.

you would see the attack being linked in that direction.

:15:45.:15:47.

Vladimir Putin is fighting wars in Syria and Ukraine.

:15:48.:15:55.

Blood is being spilt in Russia's always troubled

:15:56.:15:57.

And one pro Kremlin voice even pointed the finger

:15:58.:16:02.

at anti-corruption protestors, but tonight law enforcement sources

:16:03.:16:06.

said that a suicide bomber was responsible, who could have

:16:07.:16:10.

links to radical Islamist groups banned in Republican.

:16:11.:16:12.

This is how the master of the Kremlin responded.

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TRANSLATION: Law enforcement bodies and special services are working,

:16:16.:16:17.

and will do all they can in order to find out the cause

:16:18.:16:20.

But Putin has built his reputation on being the guarantor

:16:21.:16:24.

an attack while he was in the city, an attack on public transport,

:16:25.:16:39.

in a sort of multiple potential devices in this co-ordinated way

:16:40.:16:41.

suggests a dramatic security failure which ultimately will be seen

:16:42.:16:45.

Tonight, while what drove the killer to commit 24

:16:46.:16:51.

atrocity remains unclear, ordinary people are yet again

:16:52.:16:53.

Oksana Antonenko is a Russia expert at the London School of Economics.

:16:54.:17:05.

Good evening. From what you know and what we are saying here, there are a

:17:06.:17:17.

number of different possibilities. The Russian Government says it is

:17:18.:17:19.

investigating a suicide bombing. What do you think might have

:17:20.:17:27.

happened? First of all let me start by expressing my deepest condolences

:17:28.:17:31.

to everybody affected. It was a well planned and orchestrated attack,

:17:32.:17:36.

which was aimed at inflicting the largest possible damage for the

:17:37.:17:39.

civilians, in fact this metro station is very close to number of

:17:40.:17:44.

Russian universities, and the time of the bomb coincided with the time

:17:45.:17:48.

and the lectures finished at the university and the students were

:17:49.:17:51.

going home. So it was very well planned and executed and the fact

:17:52.:17:58.

that the second bomb was found at another station, reportedly

:17:59.:18:02.

concealed as a fire extinguisher shows it wasn't just a lone suicide

:18:03.:18:06.

bomber, it was a very well orchestrated and well researched and

:18:07.:18:11.

co-ordinated attack, therefore, it is clearly, work of an organisation

:18:12.:18:16.

at least several people than it is just a lone extremist. There are of

:18:17.:18:22.

course several theories, most point to links with IS. It could be some

:18:23.:18:28.

Russian nationals or even nationals from central Asia who were fighting

:18:29.:18:35.

in Syria, on the side of IS. The estimates indicate round 10,000 or

:18:36.:18:39.

more Russians were fighting in Syria, and probably round 4-6,000

:18:40.:18:44.

central Asians who were many radicalised during their time in

:18:45.:18:48.

Russia, as migrants, working in Russia. The second potential herery

:18:49.:18:52.

and that someone is seriously investigated at the moment, that it

:18:53.:18:57.

is linked to the indigenous IS linked groups within Russia, in

:18:58.:19:01.

fact, terrorism in Russia has been continuing, now, for a while. Last

:19:02.:19:08.

year, alone, in the knot Caucasus 200 Russian law enforcement

:19:09.:19:12.

personnel and civilians were killed in the IS linked attacks and just a

:19:13.:19:18.

few days ago, on 24th March, there was a very large attack outside of,

:19:19.:19:24.

at the National Guard, again organised by the IS linked local

:19:25.:19:31.

group, so leer clearly we have a large network of IS affiliated

:19:32.:19:34.

groups. But it would be fair to say recently in the Caucasus

:19:35.:19:38.

particularly these have been bombs in less populated area, areas that

:19:39.:19:43.

do not attract so much media attention, this presumably on the

:19:44.:19:46.

day that Vladimir Putin was there to meet the President of Belarus, this

:19:47.:19:50.

was timed to make the maximum impact abroad? Well, not only abroad. It is

:19:51.:19:56.

to make the maximum impact on Russia itself. Russia of course is entering

:19:57.:20:01.

the Presidential election campaign, it is a time when the politics I

:20:02.:20:04.

again, coming to the forefront, I think we are seen the protests

:20:05.:20:08.

recently, and it is really something which is aimed in my view, mostly at

:20:09.:20:13.

the domestic audience. I think one perhaps big question of whether it

:20:14.:20:18.

is really an IS affiliated attack is no-one has claimed the

:20:19.:20:22.

responsibility for this attack. Usually IS, in, declares that

:20:23.:20:26.

responsibility. Tell me though, Vladimir Putin, you know, it will be

:20:27.:20:30.

laid at his door, the commentators said in the film, because he see

:20:31.:20:34.

himself as a strong man, the idea is he going to going to keep Russia

:20:35.:20:39.

safe, how destabilising will this be? During those kind of attacks the

:20:40.:20:44.

nation usually rallies round the flag. I don't think it will be, if

:20:45.:20:47.

it is just one attack, it is not going to be something which is going

:20:48.:20:53.

to undermine I think Putin's very high popularity rating. If on the

:20:54.:20:57.

other hand we are present at the beginning of another campaign and we

:20:58.:21:02.

remember in the mid 2000s there were bombs going on in the transport

:21:03.:21:06.

system. In Russia almost on a weekly basis and clearly they are still

:21:07.:21:10.

going, as I mentioned in the north Caucasus and can be in other parts

:21:11.:21:14.

of Russia, then, of course, we will see much more I think tensions

:21:15.:21:19.

building up before the election campaign, but I think one terrorist

:21:20.:21:23.

attack is not going to be in my view very damaging to Putin but other --

:21:24.:21:26.

rather will strengthen his popularity. Thank you for joining

:21:27.:21:29.

Time was when Co2 emissions were the main target for Government

:21:30.:21:35.

action on the environment, but if the expected announcement

:21:36.:21:38.

tomorrow by the Mayor of London is anything to go by,

:21:39.:21:41.

the focus has swung hard to nitrogen oxides - or noxes -

:21:42.:21:44.

Siddiq Khan looks like he's going to announce that he is fast

:21:45.:21:48.

forwarding a toxin tax on diesel cars in the city, and other towns

:21:49.:21:51.

and cities in England are expected to follow suit.

:21:52.:21:53.

Naysayers insist that diesel cars only make up 10%

:21:54.:21:55.

Campaigners retort that the other polluters aren't at ground level

:21:56.:22:01.

Air pollution, a problem that refuses to fade.

:22:02.:22:23.

Its stench has lingered far too long in the UK.

:22:24.:22:25.

The Government attributes 40,000 premature deaths a year to it.

:22:26.:22:28.

And it wants to be seen to be doing something about it.

:22:29.:22:32.

The government will publish its plans in a couple of week, according

:22:33.:22:39.

to the Sunday Times I will clamp-down on diesel vehicle, a

:22:40.:22:44.

toxin tax could be charged, in the ten worst affected, diesel cars as

:22:45.:22:48.

well as commercial vehicles could be banned during peak hours.

:22:49.:22:52.

We have had a government that has simply rested on giving advice to

:22:53.:22:55.

people to stay at home when air pollution is high, that is nowhere

:22:56.:23:00.

near good enough, we need much more proactive action when it comes to

:23:01.:23:04.

tax tackling air pollution at source. Air pollution, let us

:23:05.:23:09.

remember is not only responsible for many thousands of premature deaths

:23:10.:23:13.

but also costing the economy anywhere up to ?20 billion in terms

:23:14.:23:19.

of ill health and so forth. So we do need action like low-emission zones,

:23:20.:23:22.

we need the Government to step up, just as many Governments are already

:23:23.:23:26.

doing across the rest of the world. Tell me what this is? A poster about

:23:27.:23:34.

air pollution. Yeah? And to stop the dust getting in the air, so

:23:35.:23:38.

healthier life for all of us. I like that. The Mayor of London recently

:23:39.:23:44.

introduced a new ?10 toxicity charge, dubbed the T charge. It is

:23:45.:23:48.

reported that tomorrow, he will announce a charge of 12.50 for every

:23:49.:23:52.

polluting vehicle entering any part of Greater London. Not just the

:23:53.:23:56.

centre of the the city. London is one of the worst affected areas in

:23:57.:24:02.

the UK by air pollution. Here on Oxford Street, the limits for

:24:03.:24:06.

nitrous dioxide were breached 16 times last year, that is 150 more

:24:07.:24:11.

than is allowed. Now transport accounts for 80% of

:24:12.:24:16.

the UK's total nitrous oxide emissions by the roadside. Diesel

:24:17.:24:20.

engines emitt on average more than petrol and that is why the

:24:21.:24:23.

Government is so keen to reduce their use, especially in spins.

:24:24.:24:28.

Testify Nearly one in two new cars bought last year were diesel. They

:24:29.:24:33.

are seen as more economical and when it comes to carbon dioxide emissions

:24:34.:24:39.

less harmful. However in recent years studies have focus on nigh

:24:40.:24:46.

rows oxide as more harmful. It is confusing. Volkswagen was found

:24:47.:24:51.

guilty of falsifying emissions data on its diesel vehicles, pretending

:24:52.:24:55.

they were cleaner than they were. That was for its laboratory tests,

:24:56.:24:59.

however, now there is doubts being cast over the value of tests done by

:25:00.:25:04.

all auto makers in a controlled environment. A UK Government study

:25:05.:25:09.

compared laboratory test results with the actual performance of

:25:10.:25:13.

vehicles on the road. The dotted line shows the emissions target,

:25:14.:25:17.

which the vehicles met under laboratory test conditions. The bars

:25:18.:25:23.

show that all models emitted more nitrous oxides on the road. On

:25:24.:25:27.

average the readings were six times worse.

:25:28.:25:32.

So how can drivers be deterred from diesel? A tax is another way of

:25:33.:25:37.

trying to tackle emissions from diesel car, they can be applied

:25:38.:25:41.

nationally, with more flexibility and they can also be a revenue

:25:42.:25:47.

generator to invest in low-emission transport, including public

:25:48.:25:50.

transport, low-emissions buses and active transport such as walking and

:25:51.:25:53.

cycling. Road vehicles are not responsible for the majority of

:25:54.:25:57.

diesel emission, some are report suggest they contribute to just 10%.

:25:58.:26:03.

15 of the biggest cargo ships currently pollute more nitrogen and

:26:04.:26:08.

sull for ox IEDses than all the world's cars put together. Aircraft

:26:09.:26:15.

emissions are still rising. Regulations are being tightened for

:26:16.:26:17.

them but travellers on the road are likely to feel the pinch first.

:26:18.:26:23.

The motor journalist and former Top Gear presenter

:26:24.:26:25.

Alongside, Oliver Hayes, the lead air pollution campaigner

:26:26.:26:34.

The diesel is a killers it has to be stopped. Nobody is talking about

:26:35.:26:42.

what the real pollutants are. Defra said that PM 10, 2.5, the ultra fine

:26:43.:26:48.

particles, 73% of that pollution comes from what is known as

:26:49.:26:53.

commercial public and residential combustion, that is burning wood. So

:26:54.:26:58.

you have got this 10% of cars, that are producing this tiny sliver of

:26:59.:27:03.

pollution, and nobody is doing anything about these pollutants that

:27:04.:27:08.

are add pedestrian level. So it is an easy target, where you are

:27:09.:27:11.

hitting peep who are trying to do their best because they were told

:27:12.:27:15.

that new diesel cars were environmentally-friendly. When we

:27:16.:27:17.

talk about air pollution, what we are talking about is children

:27:18.:27:21.

growing up with smaller lungs. We are talking about people having

:27:22.:27:29.

worsen asthma symptoms and changes in the brain associated with

:27:30.:27:32.

Alzheimer's. Would you rather not go after the cargo ship, the aircraft,

:27:33.:27:37.

than going after 10% which is cars. I think as your introduction made

:27:38.:27:40.

clear, what is crucial is where the pollution takes place, now, most of

:27:41.:27:45.

us, don't live near a big chimney or next to a big cargo ship but most of

:27:46.:27:49.

us do live near a road and that is why road transport is the biggest

:27:50.:27:53.

problem, diesel vehicles are the worse of all. The Government is

:27:54.:27:57.

clear on that. It is true if you take to Oxford Street, the amount of

:27:58.:28:04.

breaches in one year is phenomenal. 260 buses an hour on Oxford Street.

:28:05.:28:09.

That is your problem. With respect, nobody is talking about ship,s, that

:28:10.:28:14.

is 80% of background pollution. Nobody is talking about rail. Ground

:28:15.:28:20.

machinery, digger, road roller, 14% of background pollution, nobody is

:28:21.:28:24.

talking about this. Instead as always we demonise the diesel drive.

:28:25.:28:30.

It was that 1998 budget that Gordon Brown brought in that did the 3

:28:31.:28:36.

pence cut in diesel, and Greenpeace were advising and Friends of the

:28:37.:28:39.

Earth was advising Gordon Brown for that. So, this is the unintended

:28:40.:28:45.

consequence. That is not true. We were saying clearly in 1999 and 2000

:28:46.:28:49.

we were not advising diesel cars because of the clear health

:28:50.:28:52.

pollutant. How do you help people? These are people who perhaps have a

:28:53.:28:57.

small family car, they have bought it thinking it is

:28:58.:28:58.

environmentally-friendly. They have to drive to get to work, a lot of

:28:59.:29:05.

these marginal seats around cities and commuter, the Conservatives will

:29:06.:29:07.

have a problem with that, you will hit these people who are having to

:29:08.:29:12.

travel to work? I agree that drivers are rightly angry, Most people

:29:13.:29:16.

driving diesel cars bought them because they were told they were the

:29:17.:29:19.

greener choice, they did so in good faith. Give them ten years, to sell

:29:20.:29:25.

their car and move on to another car, but, the word is they are going

:29:26.:29:29.

to be hit in the next 12 months. We need to get action on diesel cars at

:29:30.:29:34.

the earliest opportunity. Every day of inaction is another day of lives

:29:35.:29:39.

lost. Isn't it the case if you gave people help to get through this it

:29:40.:29:43.

would be better for everybody, more electric car, fewer diesel cars it

:29:44.:29:49.

would be better. I have been campaigning for electric cars for

:29:50.:29:52.

year, I saw the Secretary of State, telling him to get his accuse

:29:53.:29:56.

together. But the cost to consumers who were told to buy diesel. If you

:29:57.:30:01.

say every dicele calf will have its value reduced by 5,00 pounds because

:30:02.:30:05.

move this hysteria, that is 75 billion we will be costing

:30:06.:30:09.

consumers. Tell me how, we know that, now we are talking with the

:30:10.:30:13.

Greater London area, but you have the congestion charge, that is

:30:14.:30:17.

monitored you can tell cars coming in, but when it comes to Newcastle

:30:18.:30:22.

or Leicester, how are you actual going to monitor this? That is why

:30:23.:30:27.

our position is clear, we need the so-called clean air zones to be

:30:28.:30:31.

properly funded and to be mandatory, we need Local Authorities to be

:30:32.:30:35.

supported to introduce the... By central Government Absolutely. It is

:30:36.:30:38.

not fair to same police say you must introduce the clean air zone but

:30:39.:30:41.

provide no support to do it. I would like to go back to the point about

:30:42.:30:46.

the cost to drivers, because you know, people driving dicele cars are

:30:47.:30:49.

just about as much at risk of air pollution as people on the street.

:30:50.:30:53.

We know if you are stuck in traffic and your car is bridging in air from

:30:54.:30:57.

the exhaust in front of you, you are getting poisoned by this stuff. So

:30:58.:31:00.

we need to support action for everybody. It may be you are asking

:31:01.:31:05.

people to pay the congestion charge in London to pay an extra 15.50 to

:31:06.:31:10.

bring their car in London. That will hit trade in London as wellen is it.

:31:11.:31:13.

We are clear three things need to happen. We knee to restrict want

:31:14.:31:19.

December doole cars can go. We need to get existence between exhaust

:31:20.:31:23.

pipes and children's lungs. Would you like to see every dicele bus

:31:24.:31:28.

taken off the streets? We are seeing good progress. Once swept have Petit

:31:29.:31:34.

Cambodge a, we have enough surveillance cameras so it will be

:31:35.:31:39.

easy to monitor number plates and charge people. And we will miss the

:31:40.:31:46.

worst polluters we don't measure ultra fine particles. It is not in

:31:47.:31:52.

the MoT. Or the vehicle exist duty, so we will be missing the pollution

:31:53.:31:53.

that is out there. Would you agree that diesel cars

:31:54.:32:03.

that aren't the most environmentally friendly, 10, 15, 20 years old,

:32:04.:32:09.

scrap them? We should be testing for more particulate pollution. We don't

:32:10.:32:14.

do that. So change the MOT. That's not always being enforced as it

:32:15.:32:18.

should be. We know filters that take out particulates are being removed.

:32:19.:32:22.

That process is legal. Particulates are never being measured. They are.

:32:23.:32:26.

The point is about particulates is that we have seen huge action

:32:27.:32:31.

bringing the particulate emissions from diesels down, we haven't seen

:32:32.:32:39.

action on nox. The car makers have been lying to us. Under the

:32:40.:32:43.

Government's watch and EU's watch. Those regimes were supervised by the

:32:44.:32:47.

Government and EU. We are in a public health crisis. We know that

:32:48.:32:51.

nox is not under control. We know that the UK Government is breaking

:32:52.:32:56.

the law. It's a simple point. The UK is obliged to meet legal limits on

:32:57.:33:00.

nitrogen dioxide and it isn't. Thank you very much very much indeed.

:33:01.:33:04.

If you're black and grew up in Britain in the '70s or '80s,

:33:05.:33:08.

perhaps the first person of a similar background

:33:09.:33:09.

you would have seen on a programme like this was Darcus Howe.

:33:10.:33:12.

An anti-racism campaigner, a member of the British

:33:13.:33:14.

Black Panther movement, writer, agitator, public

:33:15.:33:16.

intellectual and a broadcaster and documentary maker,

:33:17.:33:18.

Howe's death was announced at the weekend.

:33:19.:33:20.

He had been living with prostate cancer for more six years.

:33:21.:33:24.

He edited Race Today for 11 years, working alongside Farruk Dhondy

:33:25.:33:27.

and Linton Kweisi Johnson, and is credited with

:33:28.:33:29.

a transformative role in immigrants' rights.

:33:30.:33:33.

In a life that spanned 74 years and began in Trinidad,

:33:34.:33:37.

Darcus Howe saw Britain transformed, and often he was the heart

:33:38.:33:40.

I'm sitting opposite a man, he knows nothing,

:33:41.:33:48.

The result is he is a trenchant buffoon.

:33:49.:33:52.

He has no idea how to present television shows, he looks

:33:53.:33:54.

ridiculous in that fashionwear, he swans around all the time hoping

:33:55.:33:57.

that people will recognise him, when in fact nobody's

:33:58.:33:59.

He's taking up enough time on this show already,

:34:00.:34:03.

Sorry, that's the introduction to Robert Elms.

:34:04.:34:10.

I've just read out the introduction to Robert Elms.

:34:11.:34:14.

Heroic and uncharacteristic restraint from Darcus Howe.

:34:15.:34:18.

A formidable civil rights campaigner and broadcaster.

:34:19.:34:22.

Back in the '70s, Howe was more than a match for the Met,

:34:23.:34:26.

when he and others were charged over disturbances in west

:34:27.:34:29.

London, following police raids on a restaurant.

:34:30.:34:33.

Officers told the Old Bailey they'd seen Howe orchestrating a crowd

:34:34.:34:37.

The lawyer said Darcus, please, exhibits are...

:34:38.:34:48.

So they bring the van and there were these slits at the back.

:34:49.:34:55.

The four policemen seeing the same thing, seeing the same

:34:56.:34:58.

So I measured it quietly while the judge and they

:34:59.:35:02.

were round the side, and went home, cut out

:35:03.:35:05.

a piece of paper, foolscap, the size of the slit.

:35:06.:35:08.

Recalled the witness and said "Tell me, how four of you could see

:35:09.:35:12.

the same thing at the same time, through that slit?"

:35:13.:35:16.

He say "My eye was here, Rhys's eye was here.

:35:17.:35:19.

Roger's eye was here, and the next eye was here."

:35:20.:35:21.

And that is what eventually broke the spirit of the prosecution.

:35:22.:35:28.

Darcus absolutely, by defending himself, was the star of the show,

:35:29.:35:32.

out of the nine defendants, and with Shakespeare quotations

:35:33.:35:37.

He stood up in the dock and was very impressive.

:35:38.:35:42.

Darcus was a fearless warrior, in the struggle against racial

:35:43.:35:47.

People talking about the civil rights movement.

:35:48.:35:53.

There was no civil rights movement in this country, there were -

:35:54.:35:56.

anti-racist struggles were being raged and Darcus

:35:57.:35:58.

No-one got a free pass from Darcus Howe, who went

:35:59.:36:05.

on to be a high profile and punchy broadcaster.

:36:06.:36:09.

Being an A-lister was no guarantee of an easy ride

:36:10.:36:12.

The other story I want to tell you is about a family of nine

:36:13.:36:18.

children, who had talent, but made it to the top

:36:19.:36:22.

because of terror and violence, from parents driven by ambition.

:36:23.:36:27.

But he met his match in comedienne Joan Rivers, on Radio 4.

:36:28.:36:32.

Black does not offend, me, how dare you!

:36:33.:36:41.

Can we just say that you don't think Joan is a racist

:36:42.:36:47.

I don't know whether she's a racist or not, I don't care.

:36:48.:36:54.

That is the stupidest thing I ever heard.

:36:55.:36:57.

Normally I don't, wouldn't ever meet you in my life.

:36:58.:37:00.

Howe was in demand as a commentator on issues of race and identity.

:37:01.:37:05.

Whether discussing symbols of Britishness...

:37:06.:37:07.

I like living here but I'm not a patriot.

:37:08.:37:12.

You could like the country, I love the countryside,

:37:13.:37:14.

I get along beautifully with the English people,

:37:15.:37:16.

we are part of a space, but I am not patriot.

:37:17.:37:20.

Did you ever sense this was going to happen?

:37:21.:37:25.

I have a grandson, who's 15, and who cannot count

:37:26.:37:32.

the number of times he was stopped and searched.

:37:33.:37:36.

I think Darcus, in a way more than anybody else,

:37:37.:37:41.

He still had the trust and confidence of the black

:37:42.:37:47.

community, but to some extent, at least, he had the trust and

:37:48.:37:50.

Utterly unbiddable, his own man, Darcus Howe wouldn't let

:37:51.:37:58.

anyone off the hook, no matter how celebrated.

:37:59.:38:00.

Just as we were coming to grips with our new hero.

:38:01.:38:09.

Tomorrow morning's front pages. We gun with the Sun which reprises an

:38:10.:38:26.

old headline, this time, it's up yours senor. There is the picture of

:38:27.:38:33.

Gibraltar. The guardian seeks to ease tensions over Gibraltar. The

:38:34.:38:36.

Mail, 3 million of car debts they can't repay.

:38:37.:38:40.

And finally a story in the telegraph, the story that the

:38:41.:38:44.

National Trust has air brushed Easter. Church of England condemns

:38:45.:38:52.

rebrand egg hunt. The National Trust has dropped the word Easter from the

:38:53.:38:57.

annual Easter egg hunt. That's just about it tonight. We leave you with

:38:58.:39:03.

our new Brexit correspondent, Bob Danvers Walker. Who filed this

:39:04.:39:09.

report on Gibraltar's preparation on life post EU. Along the entire

:39:10.:39:15.

length of Gibraltar bay, it is a grand panorama of ships of war. Safe

:39:16.:39:21.

from tore r torpedo attack, proudly ride the floating Arsenals of the

:39:22.:39:23.

British navy. Always in the foreground is the

:39:24.:39:35.

navy. The people of Gibraltar like to feel there's a manowar about the

:39:36.:39:44.

house. So Gibraltar stands, watchdog of empire.

:39:45.:39:46.

Hello there, good evening, and it's a bit of a grey start

:39:47.:39:52.

to the day across much of eastern England, with soem outbreaks of rain

:39:53.:39:55.

for East Anglia and the south-east, and some of that rain will linger

:39:56.:39:58.

Meanwhile, for the afternoon, in Northern Ireland,

:39:59.:40:01.

Bright and breezy, 11 or 12 degrees, more like ten or 11

:40:02.:40:06.

It will always be quite windy the further north

:40:07.:40:10.

you go, particularly up towards Orkney and Shetland.

:40:11.:40:12.

There will be some showers rattling through on that wind.

:40:13.:40:15.

There will be some showers too in the north-west of Scotland.

:40:16.:40:18.