Browse content similar to 05/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's very, very possible - and I will tell you it's | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
already happened - that my attitude toward Syria | :00:11. | :00:11. | |
Is President Trump - accused of inappropriate respect | :00:12. | :00:21. | |
for President Putin - about to get tough on the Russians | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
When the United Nations consistently fails in its duty | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
to act collectively, there are times in the life | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
of states that we are compelled to take our own action. | :00:36. | :00:44. | |
We'll ask what the US can do, and what it means for the reset | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
I visit the old coal-mining territory in northern France. | :00:49. | :01:01. | |
Home of Europe's's tallest slack heap. Is anybody here buying into | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
the promises of politicians?. Find the woman and there the she | :01:04. | :01:29. | |
I have changed somewhat, but a lot of the early feminists | :01:30. | :01:38. | |
haven't and they go on seeing men as the enemy. | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
I don't see men as an enemy, or an oppressive force, anymore. | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
I tend to see women as rather the oppressive force at the moment. | :01:46. | :01:54. | |
Since the start of the Syrian civil war, adjectives | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
become worn out from over-use, not least from describing | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
the brutality of Bashar al-Assad and his military. | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
Listening to much of the reaction to yesterday's reports | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
of a chemical attack, one could only be struck | :02:10. | :02:10. | |
by the apparent powerlessness of the West to prevent cruelty | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
For some, Donald Trump was the problem - he had shown | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
a disregard for Syria and respect for Russia, offering Assad and Putin | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
But at quarter to five our time, a dramatic shift in approach. | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
The US Ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, made an excoriating | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
attack on Russia and Assad, with a suggestion the US might | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
The President himself also had strong words. | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
That the administration is about to take a new and decisive | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
step towards intervention, or that it is just | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
And I should warn you - Ambassador Haley held up some | :02:48. | :02:57. | |
graphic images of some of the victims of the attack today | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
About all everyone agrees on that this was chemical weapons. Who | :03:01. | :03:14. | |
carried it out, though, that is what is at issue. The Western powers, | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
including Britain and supporters from the region, were congregating | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
in Brussels today for yet another serious conference. Here, a | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
consensus on who is to blame is easy to find. All the evidence I have | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
seen suggests that this was the Assad regime who did it, in the full | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
knowledge that they were using illegal weapons, in a barbaric | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
attack on their own people. What to do about it, though? The question a | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
leading international agreements so many times and every time, the death | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
toll in Syria has grown and grown. The UN Security Council has convened | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
many times since Syria's barbaric Civil War began but nothing said | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
emission chamber has halted the carnage for a second. Russia | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
sometimes joined by China has vetoed concerted action. Today, yet another | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
emergency session with the same strong condemnation from some around | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
the table. Yesterday, we sought the consequences of those vetoes. Those | :04:25. | :04:26. | |
consequences are painted on the stricken faces of the children in | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
Syria. But Russia is supporting and supplying President Assad, it | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
contends that the chemicals were released when a rebel munitions | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
store was hit by a Syrian covenant as strike. The rebels, Russia says, | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
using the chemical weapons to draw the US into the conflict. The | :04:45. | :04:52. | |
turning point in the use of toxic chemicals in Syria and weaponise | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
chemical agents, that the turning point was the establishment by the | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
previous US administration of the so-called red lines. Crossing those | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
red lines was supposed to lead to intervention, military intervention | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
in the Syrian conflict. That decision served as a starting point | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
for future provocations eye terrorists and extremist ructions | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
with the use of chemical weapons. It is impossible to say without | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
independent scientists on the ground, but from this distance, the | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
Russian explanation of a rebel chemical munitions store being hit | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
gets little support. We would not see this many deaths around. We | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
would not see this many suffering around. This is for sure the | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
Government or the Government affiliated agencies. Bombing the | :05:51. | :05:58. | |
Idlib province and the people deliberately using a nerve gas. | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
Foaming at the mouth, suffering convulsions. America is convinced | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
the US Ambassador to be when major the Russians and Syrians could see | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
pictures of some of the dead. And she hinted at a strong US response. | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
When United Nations consistently fails in its duty to act | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
collectively, there are times in the life of states, that we are | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
compelled to take our own action. It seems that President Trump is in the | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
process is very calibrating his Syria policy. It crossed a lot of | :06:33. | :06:41. | |
lines for me. When you kill innocent children, innocent babies, babies, | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
little babies. Till now, the President has seen so-called Islamic | :06:47. | :06:48. | |
State is the bigger threat to American interests. I think the | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
President, as a result of this chemical weapons attack, has reached | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
the conclusion that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is a major asset for | :06:59. | :07:07. | |
violent extremism. But what follows from that realisation, what the US | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
can do to hurt the Assad regime without coming into conflict with | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
Russian forces, is by no means clear. | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
Well, new President, a different approach. | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
Is this the first opportunity for President Trump to show | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
what he can achieve, or the first sign that he's | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
going to achieve little when it comes to influencing Russia | :07:25. | :07:26. | |
Joining me now from New York is the Foreign Policy | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
Strategist Nancy Soderberg, who served as Deputy | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
National Security Advisor under President Clinton | :07:34. | :07:35. | |
Good evening. Do you regard what happens today as a shift in American | :07:36. | :07:48. | |
policy, a serious shift, or just more words? I think it is a serious | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
shift. President Trump cannot ignore the pictures of his UN Ambassador at | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
the United Nations and it will drive a wedge between him and President | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
Vladimir Putin with whom he has been confusingly cosy. He has got to have | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
a policy that puts America on the right side of history. We do not | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
have one yet, we have not seen it yet, but I think we are going to try | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
diplomacy and perhaps, we have to do something about the remaining | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
stockpile in Syria of those chemical weapons. Just give one option that | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
you think is a viable or plausible option that he might now pursue. | :08:27. | :08:34. | |
Well, I think he has got to recognise that the Russian policy is | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
a failure in Syria. They promise to get rid of chemical weapons and they | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
have not, so he has the tough talk to her Putin and say we have to | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
solve this issue, defeat Isis and have a peace plan to rid the country | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
of Assad. That is in two stages and will be difficult and will require | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
diplomacy which we have yet to see from this team. But that does not | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
involve taking what I would think is unilateral action of going in and | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
doing anything, that is more talk and more diplomacy. Is that going to | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
leave America looking a bit week, with the day Nikki Haley saying | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
sometimes you have to act on your own comic you would look like you | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
have caved again? No, they have to do something to get rid of those | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
chemical weapons and that could either involve the Russians going in | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
and doing it as they should have the first time in 2013, they promise to | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
get rid of all of it, secondly, if they do not do it, I think the US | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
would be justified in trying to capture that. Unilateral military | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
intervention to get the chemical weapons is very, very difficult. A | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
negotiated effort with the Russians upfront to make up their faulty deal | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
from 2013 would be first, but I think President Trump is very | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
serious about taking action to address the chemical weapons threat | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
if the international community and particularly Russia fails. Quickly, | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
Nikki Haley and the United Nations pointed the finger very directly at | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
Russia and talked about Russia. President Trump did not mention | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
Russia, he was talking about Bashar al-Assad. Is that an interesting | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
distinction between the two of them, they entirely on the same page on | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
this? No, I don't. I think what Nikki Haley was doing at the UN was | :10:21. | :10:28. | |
to have her moment were akin to the Cuban Missile Crisis when our | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
Ambassador showed for the first time the satellite pictures of Cuban | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
missiles, Russian, Soviet missiles in Cuba, this is the pictures and | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
the evidence. You cannot deny that this is the truth. She is trying to | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
corner the Russians and the President has not got there. Our | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
Secretary of State is mute. I think they do not have a coordinated | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
message. I think they will get one but it is a little confusing now. | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
That is typical of this administration, they are not well | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
coordinated with one message. Some people say sometimes been a bit | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
unpredictable and confusing, nobody knows what you're doing, that can be | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
an advantage in these situations, you can get away with stuff nobody | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
else can. I think below -- people believe President Trump when he says | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
he will make sure this is addressed alone if we have two, I don't think | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
President Trump knows what that is exactly. This forces President Trump | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
to confront the Russian behaviour which he has been unwilling to do so | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
far. There is no doubt the Russians could move to prevent this and did | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
not get all the weapons initially, they are pretending this is the | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
rebels, the same playbook they played in 2013 when this crisis | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
happened before. Russian policy is an absolute failure. It opens the | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
door for President Trump to try to get the Russians to do the right | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
thing here. Given their relationship, he may be the one | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
person that can hold that. If they can get that deal, he will have | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
accomplished something important, and that is going to be the first | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
test of this presidency. Nancy Soderberg, thank you very much | :12:06. | :12:06. | |
indeed. Listening to that was | :12:07. | :12:07. | |
Dr Leslie Vinjamuri, an expert in conflict and US foreign | :12:08. | :12:09. | |
policy at Chatham House and SOAS. Did you think this was significant | :12:10. | :12:18. | |
when you heard President Trump say he had changed his mind about Syria? | :12:19. | :12:26. | |
It was significant because Trump backed himself into a corner. He has | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
been criticising the Obama administration for a long time and | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
failing to force the red line. He said many red lines were crossed and | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
more than a red line. So people will be looking to see what he does. Much | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
of what Donald Trump has been doing in the last months has been about | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
his concern for his popularity at home. So that audience now, the | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
expectations of that audience, has been raised. But she is exactly | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
right, it is not very obvious what one does do, using Russia has the | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
greatest love it over Assad so that is important, but whether Donald | :13:07. | :13:08. | |
Trump has leveraged over Russia remains to be seen and there is no | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
real strategy out of the administration. This is the most | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
fascinating things, have we learned anything about Donald Trump and | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
Russia? This is what everybody has been talking about for the last four | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
months. Is he compensating for the fact people think he is close to | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
Russia, does he have any sway over Russia? Donald Trump, when he spoke | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
today about Syria and about the chemical weapons, again, I think he | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
was speaking to a domestic audience and he was launching a critique of | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
the past administration. It was a little bit less about Russia. But | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
this puts him in a very difficult position because without the help of | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
Russia, there is not much you can do about Assad. Everybody says that, | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
can the US, the one thing I have heard described you can do, you | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
could just go in and punish Assad for this. So he thinks about it the | :13:59. | :14:09. | |
next time, you could just bomb and airfield. Not get in the way of the | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
Russians and not get drawn into the fight but say, you did that, we do | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
this, don't do that again. Is that plausible or does Russia have | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
control of the airspace you could not do anything? The key issue is | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
whether the current administration will think and deliberate carefully | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
enough. If they were to decide to use military force for the specific | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
aim of taking out whatever chemical weapons remain in Syria and whether | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
they would go through the kind of process that would be absolutely | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
essential to achieve that, and that would not be easy to achieve in any | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
case. I think that is an incredibly difficult to quote you do not know | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
where the chemical weapons are. And the broader question is how to solve | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
this crisis, this ongoing conflict in Syria. They are two issues and | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
the two issues will come together in the mind of the American public. | :14:59. | :15:00. | |
Thank you very much. Another day in which comments | :15:01. | :15:02. | |
of Ken Livingstone have distracted He was suspended from standing | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
for office within the Labour Party yesterday, not expelled, | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
for his views on Hitler and zionism. But he was on this programme | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
last night, and carried on the argument without apology, | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
to the disappointment of many. His latest comments | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
mean there is now to be It's all getting in the way of a big | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
policy announcement - unless the policy was designed | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
to distract from Ken? We'll ask a Shadow Cabinet | :15:30. | :15:31. | |
minister in a moment. But first, our political editor | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
Nick Watt is with me. Let's take a break from him, what is | :15:35. | :15:43. | |
the policy and how will they get away from this Ken Livingstone | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
affair? Jeremy Corbyn complained earlier the week that Labour never | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
focus on party policy and are obsessed with his leadership so they | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
will announce a policy tomorrow which will attract a fair amount of | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
attention. Labour say a future Labour | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
government would fund free school meals for all primary school pupils | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
to be funded by, wait for it, charging VAT on private school fees. | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
He is going to cite research from the Fabian Society back in 2010, | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
which said this would raise about ?1.5 billion a year. | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
It's interesting to note that there was an identity Michael Cole | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
identical policy on this in the Labour general election of 1993. | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
That manifesto went much further and talked about phasing out private | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
schools. Let's talk about Ken Livingstone now, bringing us | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
up-to-date on the sequence of events since last night? There was uproar | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
in the party after that decision, as you say, not to expel Ken | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
Livingstone from the party, about 100 Labour MPs, including members of | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
the Shadow Cabinet, said the Labour machinery did not act in their name | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
and this afternoon Jeremy Corbyn criticised his former comrades on | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
the left, for refusing to apologise for his remarks and endorsed that | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
referral of Ken Livingstone to Labour's ruling National executive | :17:11. | :17:12. | |
committee. Tomorrow, Theresa May will wade into | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
the row and says the Labour Party has betrayed the Jewish community by | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
letting Ken Livingstone off the hook. She will be talking at the | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
launch of the Conservative campaign for the local elections on the 4th | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
of May where she will essentially say that under Labour, council tax | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
doubled but Conservative councils made sensible savings while keeping | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
council tax down. Thank you. | :17:39. | :17:39. | |
Barry Gardiner is the Shadow International Trade Secretary, | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
and was one of more than 100 MPs who signed a letter today | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
criticising the party's response to the Livingstone saga. | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
I think that that letter, the words were "The Labour institutions have | :17:50. | :18:00. | |
betrayed our values". Do you believe that? I do. I joined the Labour | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
Party to fight bigotry and racism. To fight injustice. Not to turn a | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
blind eye to it. That is why many of us were incensed at the National | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
Constitutional committee's response. To actually find that Ken | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
Livingstone had done what had been alleged, namely he had brought the | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
party into disrepute, with these grossly offensive remarks. That he | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
had not apologised for them. And the sanction that was there, provided | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
for, was not used and he was not expelled from the party. | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
That is absolutely wrong and sends the message to people that is | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
contrary to everything the Labour Party was founded on, and everything | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
the Labour Party stands for. Jeremy Corbyn, today, seemed to share quite | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
a lot of those views. That it was terrible he had not | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
apologised and continued talking about it. But, he also said to | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
regional papers this afternoon that he does want Ken Livingstone to | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
contribute to the fight of the Labour Party, including the fight | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
for antiracism, the fight against racism. | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
Now, you could not share that view with Jeremy Corbyn? You do not want | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
Ken Livingstone in your camp fighting for anything? Let me be | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
clear, Ken Livingstone is a consummate politician, I do not | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
think any of doubt that, he's a very intelligent man. If he were to | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
repent, if he were genuinely to be sorry for the gross offence that he | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
caused, I would welcome that. But, Ken Livingstone knew what he was | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
doing when he weighed in to that original argument. He knew deep | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
remarks he made were likely to cause offence. He has continued to try and | :19:49. | :19:56. | |
dance on the head of a pin about the particular words that he used, being | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
misinterpreted. But the fact is, he hasn't come out, | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
as he should have done, contrite and apologised for the offence he | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
caused. Many people focus on the anti-Semitism part of this but some | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
think it is the whole affair which makes the party look on hinged? | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
Banging on about Hitler and Zionism, partly it has taken 11 months to get | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
from his first comments to where we are now, and that you haven't | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
managed to agree a line, constitute committees have come up with one | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
thing and then 100 MPs have shown that the immense and passion that | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
you have. Then, the second enquiry, and the | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
leader giving slightly mixed messages about the role of Ken | :20:40. | :20:41. | |
Livingstone. Do you not think that the party | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
comes across as not looking like it can organise anything? The National | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
Constitutional Committee was set up a number of years ago to be able to | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
take this away from the National executive and take it out of the | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
politics of politics, if you like. And, to set in place a way of | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
dealing with things like this. The problem is, it hasn't done that | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
effectively. Therefore, Jeremy Corbyn was absolutely right, that it | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
must now go back to the NEC, the National executive committee, the | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
governing body of the party, to look at this again. | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
This is not just about Ken Livingstone, although he, I'm sure, | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
is always keen to make it about Ken Livingstone. This is about the way | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
in which the party organisers from the bottom-up, the way in which it | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
operates from the bottom-up, and we must get it right. | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
Unless these fundamental values are at the core of the Labour Party, | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
then it is not the Labour Party as was founded, and it is not the | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
Labour Party that many of us joined. We want to see it right in the | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
future. Like it or lump it, no matter what Theresa May says | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
tomorrow, it is the Labour Party in this country which is the best | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
political vehicle for justice, for fighting racism, and... | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
You are sounding very angry and quite disenchanted, if I may say so, | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
with your own party. Not at all. Some would say it is with your own | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
leader? I think that Jeremy's response today was exemplary and his | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
response, having referred it initially to the NCC, he was | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
absolutely right, as all of us should be, to be kept out of the | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
process of discipline. You face your elections on May the 4th, local | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
elections, and agree it would be a disaster for your party to lose | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
seats in those local elections? No opposition party has done that | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
since 1985 in a local election... We want to win the seat and not lose | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
them. We want to win all of the seats that we fight in. The more | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
labour representatives there are in local councils, the more seats that | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
are in local councils, the better we are able to highlight the fact that | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
this is a government which has just cut 8% of the education budget, and | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
we are able to highlight the cuts to social care in this country and | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
highlight the way in which the National Health Service is not able | :23:09. | :23:10. | |
to meet the targets that this government has said. Every Labour | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
councillor, every Labour mayor, will enable asked to do that better. | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
Barry Gardiner, thank you. -- will enable us to do better. | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
The French had a Presidential election TV debate last night. | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
Eleven candidates on stage for four hours. | :23:30. | :23:30. | |
Interestingly, the debate winner in the follow-up poll | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
was the radical left winger, Jean-Luc Melenchon. | :23:35. | :23:36. | |
He's been gaining support, and it's now possible that the two | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
main parties in France will come fourth and fifth in this | :23:40. | :23:41. | |
Well, for an explanation, I've been to the northern | :23:42. | :23:53. | |
Just an hour from Calais, it was the heart of a huge coal | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
That's long gone,of course and the population there | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
It's often said the populist far right, Front National, flourish | :24:01. | :24:15. | |
there, but in people are often clutching at someone, anyone, | :24:16. | :24:17. | |
What I didn't find there, is anybody supporting either | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
The French spent billions shutting down their old coal mines. | :24:21. | :24:37. | |
In the north of France, it was the early '90s they went, | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
but the relics of that past are hard to miss. | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
But, yes, the country did shut them down all the same. | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
He started working in the mines at 14. | :24:49. | :25:23. | |
So is there life when the mines have gone? | :25:24. | :25:25. | |
In Northern France, they have done their very best. | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
A novel use for a spoil tip, a dry ski slope. | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
But how does this play in the upcoming presidential election? | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
Will this part of France conform to the global pattern | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
He thinks it's not all about the Front National. | :25:41. | :26:13. | |
It's easy to say that places like this have been forgotten, | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
I'm really not sure it's that simple. | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
This, for example, is the fantastic Lens Louvre museum. | :26:23. | :26:24. | |
It's the only branch of the Paris Louvre | :26:25. | :26:26. | |
They've made a real effort, but the truth is, nobody anywhere | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
How would you bring economic drive, jobs and status to areas that | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
Culture is a favourite French revitaliser. | :26:38. | :26:47. | |
The Louvre is on the site of an old mine and here, | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
a few miles from Lens, is another pithead turned | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
This old cloakroom and shower room is the exhibition site. | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
Former miners still gather on the site. | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
They recognise the effort that's been made, but | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
Tell me about the best days, the best days ever, of this region. | :27:06. | :27:25. | |
When was this region, do you think, at its absolute best? | :27:26. | :28:10. | |
Would they believe anyone promising jobs now? | :28:11. | :28:50. | |
Back to Lens, where I must catch sight of the local natural scenery. | :28:51. | :28:58. | |
A sign of just how dominant coal was here. | :28:59. | :29:10. | |
Well, the view is spectacular, but there's one thing that you can't | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
see, which is that over there - about a 40-minute drive away, | :29:14. | :29:15. | |
not so far - is Lille, France's fourth biggest city. | :29:16. | :29:23. | |
And everybody agrees there are more jobs over there. | :29:24. | :29:25. | |
Indeed, economic opportunity has tended to gravitate | :29:26. | :29:27. | |
But for the people here - and remember, we're not | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
talking small villages, this is secondary towns and cities - | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
There's definitely a gulf between the big metropolis and the rest. | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
Here's not the place to find the old, but you | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
It is among them, polls show, you find most support | :29:50. | :30:02. | |
What's most striking is how far the Front National has | :30:03. | :30:38. | |
These two would never have voted for Jean-Marie Le Pen. | :30:39. | :31:06. | |
So you would never vote Jean-Marie Le Pen? | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
An array of products of offer and an array of views. | :31:10. | :31:20. | |
This strikes me as a community groping for some kind of change, | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
unsure if it's possible, and divided over who can deliver it. | :31:24. | :32:13. | |
Areas of industrial decline are common in the West | :32:14. | :32:15. | |
and there's a clear, if unsurprising, political pattern - | :32:16. | :32:17. | |
In fact looks at the first round that election. | :32:18. | :32:41. | |
Fay Weldon is a prolific writer who, in her 86 years, has written | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
more than 30 novels, but it was when she was 52 | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
that she wrote her most celebrated and famous work, | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
It was a raging and funny revenge novel about a woman's take-down | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
of her adulterous husband and his more beautiful, | :32:54. | :32:55. | |
And the television series which followed had everyone rooting | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
for the ungainly Ruth, whose actions and articulacy fired | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
Now the She Devil is back, but in Weldon's new iteration - | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
Death of a She Devil - Ruth is in her eighties, harsh, | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
embittered, and her female-only world has consigned men | :33:10. | :33:11. | |
Weldon paints a dystopic view of feminism, earnest humourless | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
It is a satire, but in her own life, Weldon too has had second | :33:16. | :33:26. | |
thoughts about feminism, believing the revolution has not | :33:27. | :33:28. | |
Kirsty met the author to talk about the return | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
I always pretend to be happy when I am not! | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
I must be grateful for the roof over my head and the food on my table. | :33:39. | :33:51. | |
When you unleashed the She Devil into the world... | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
what do you think was it about her that captured | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
the imagination, not just of women, men too, but mainly women, that she | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
I think it was the rage and the anger and the fact | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
that she represented women who were not particulary beautiful. | :34:08. | :34:09. | |
To see a large woman actually active on the screen | :34:10. | :34:11. | |
She was not subservient, she did dreadful things, | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
I mean, she took off in great danger to herself, | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
inasmuch as she had no way of financially supporting herself. | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
And that stopped many women taking off, didn't it? | :34:24. | :34:25. | |
It was very much as women in other countries are today, | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
that you can't be your own person because you have no | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
Women wanted freedom and she was free. | :34:33. | :34:43. | |
Over a decade ago, in an interview, you said - as soon as women | :34:44. | :35:09. | |
have the choice of marrying or not marrying, having children or not, | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
the only choice they don't have is not earning, | :35:13. | :35:14. | |
which is a terrible loss to womanhood. | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
If you're young, healthy, energetic, have a career, | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
But most women have jobs, or end up with jobs, not careers, often | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
Social change in the last 40 years has been enormous. | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
Thanks to feminism, in a way, but you can't say | :35:36. | :35:37. | |
Because the original feminists really didn't | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
We saw a world of young, healthy, intelligent, striking women, | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
and we didn't really honestly take much notice of those | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
But you seem to be suggesting, broadly, that feminism has not | :35:49. | :36:02. | |
turned out as well as you thought it would when you were younger. | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
I mean, there were many, many advantages. | :36:07. | :36:14. | |
Earning and working gives women economic | :36:15. | :36:16. | |
I mean, they have freedom, they have power, they have all these things, | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
but they have no rest and they look tired and they look exhausted. | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
Feminism is wonderful for any woman under 30. | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
Man now controls the best weapon woman ever had. | :36:32. | :36:33. | |
In its very mood and subtleties, he can become her, | :36:34. | :36:50. | |
But what will happen to the She Devil? | :36:51. | :36:59. | |
So what kind of character has the She Devil turned | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
Well, she hasn't changed, she has the same views, I think, really. | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
I mean, I hope I have changed somewhat, but a lot of the early | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
feminists haven't and they go on seeing man as the enemy. | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
I don't think man is the enemy and an oppressive force any more, | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
I tend to see women as rather the oppressive force at the moment. | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
You have said that women now live lives easier than men and the only | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
way men have of fighting back against the natural | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
superiority of women is by becoming women themselves. | :37:33. | :37:34. | |
You're not seriously suggesting that people change sex | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
from male to female simply because it's easier in this | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
Look, there are lots of sort of transgender people | :37:44. | :37:54. | |
for whom it is really a serious business. | :37:55. | :37:56. | |
But there is also a sort of undertone of frivolous people | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
who, for the sake of fashion or what is going on, | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
or the clothes or whatever, want to be the other gender. | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
Most of them being men wanting to be women. | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
The women who want to be men have a really hard time, I think, | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
because it's a real serious business for them. | :38:11. | :38:12. | |
I'm not dismissing this at all, at all. | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
You do accept that what you say offends a lot of transgender | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
people who feel very, very passionately that they | :38:21. | :38:22. | |
I'm not saying they shouldn't for one minute. | :38:23. | :38:31. | |
I wrote a comic novel about somebody who is a frivolous person and then | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
you have to read it to see what happens, but I'm not offending | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
transgender people or thinking there is anything wrong | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
with changing your gender because I don't. | :38:45. | :38:45. | |
I think it is a very personal thing, it is something very personal, | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
but you can't sort of not say what you think. | :38:51. | :38:52. | |
What you look at and see with your eyes. | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
You have suggested, I think I'm right in saying, | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
that some of the women who claim to have been sexually | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
molested by Trump were just after money. | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
And you argue that what is now seen as sexual harassment | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
That is another minefield, it is like you like to just trample | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
I worked at an advertising office in the '60s when, | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
before feminism or sexual harassment... | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
Sexual harassment is also very, very unpleasant, | :39:28. | :39:34. | |
I know that as as a woman, I suffered | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
But I also know that in a properly run and civilised office, | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
what went on behind the filing cabinets was what made | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
Except that it was men exercising power over women, | :39:45. | :39:53. | |
women often did not have the chance to speak up about it, | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
they felt they would get the sack, they felt they would be demonised. | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
Well, if that happens, then absolutely, it is sexual harassment. | :40:00. | :40:08. | |
But all I am saying, in those days, you did not lose your job | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
if you did not do what people wanted you to do. | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
Do you still think of yourself as a feminist? | :40:16. | :40:17. | |
Yes, I do, because I want women to be happy, fulfilled | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
and have good lives, and die happy. | :40:22. | :40:22. | |
If you look out on the streets and you see them carrying | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
their shopping still and struggling to get their children | :40:28. | :40:29. | |
from the nursery and to pay the mortgage and general anxiety, | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
which everybody now is living, then I really feel | :40:33. | :40:34. | |
Fay Weldon, thank you very much indeed. | :40:35. | :40:44. | |
Before we go, astronomers today begin a week of peering | :40:45. | :40:52. | |
into the never-before-seen event horizon of a black hole. | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
They're using the appropriately named Event Horizon Telescope, | :40:56. | :40:56. | |
which is so powerful, it can - so it's said - | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
While we're waiting for the new results, | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
we leave you with this simulation made by Astrophysics | :41:06. | :41:07. | |
It's based on our current theories about Black Holes, | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
Hello, it looks like it is going to turn really warm across England and | :41:12. | :42:11. | |
Wales this weekend. In the next couple of days when the sun is out, | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
it will feel quite warm, but the | :42:16. | :42:16. |