30/10/2017 Newsnight


30/10/2017

Investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. Including sexual harassment in Parliament and the Catalan president flees to Brussels.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Are you turning yourself in to

federal authorities today?

Mr

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Manafort has no comment.

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Trumped-up charges?

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Paul Manafort, the president's

former campaign chief,

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faces multiple criminal

indictments.

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President Donald Trump was correct,

there is no evidence that Mr

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Manafort or the Trump campaign

colluded with the Russian

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government.

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Well, Mr Manafort's lawyer

there dismissed the charges,

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but he and two other associates

of President Trump are now caught

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up in criminal cases.

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And that could just be the starter.

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The inevitable question:

is the legal net closing

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in on the president himself

and his campaign?

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Make no mistake, there is a need for

change.

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Also tonight - is this the standard

experience of female

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researchers at Westminster -

male MPs feeling they can just lunge

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at subservient women as of right.

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Yeah absolutely, I think again lots

of the men who I've had experience

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with this just thought it was their

right to, that it was an

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entitlement. They didn't even show

any remorse afterwards or didn't

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even, for a second, cross their mind

that they'd behaved inappropriately.

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They govern us.

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Can we trust MPs to

govern themselves?

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I'm in Barcelona, where things are

getting a little surreal. Reports

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the entire Catalan cabinet have fled

this city for another country, as

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charges of treason are brought

against them by Spanish prosecutors.

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Where is he?

I don't know. I cannot

confirm where is the president. I

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think the president's office should

say where's Mr President.

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Hello.

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Another day of drama in Washington,

with news of the first charges

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in the Trump Russia investigation.

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Another day this US presidency

has been distracted

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by substantial legal problems.

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Is the law - represented by the

special prosecutor Robert Mueller -

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now starting to drift dangerously

close to the President himself?

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There were two bits of bad news

for the Mr Trump: one -

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possibly the less serious -

is that his former campaign manager,

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Paul Manafort and a colleague

of his were charged with tax fraud

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and money laundering.

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Not good, and watch that space.

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But for now, the second bit of news

is perhaps more dangerous as it's

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directly relevant to the thing that

really threatens Trump -

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his campaign's potential collusion

with the Russians in trying to bend

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the course of the US

election campaign.

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A former Trump advisor, it emerged

today, George Papadopoulos has

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pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI

about contacts with a Russian

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professor, who he knew was connected

to the Russian government.

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Paul Manafort is the best-known

of the characters in the news today.

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He made himself rich by busying

himself in the Ukraine helping

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the pro-Russian President

Yanukovich.

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But he went on to help Trump.

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In fact, to lead his campaign.

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The charges today all relate

to activity before he was working

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for Candidate Trump.

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Money-laundering and

tax fraud, they are.

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And all have been fiercely

challenged by his lawyer.

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He was seeking to further democracy

and to help Ukraine come closer

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to the United States and the EU.

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Those activities ended in 2014.

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Over two years before Mr Manafort

served in the Trump campaign.

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The difficulty for the president

is that everyone expects

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there to be more -

special prosecutors often

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interpret their brief widely.

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And these indictments show

Robert Mueller is no exception.

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It's very unlikely that these

are the charges that they will face.

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Prosecutors will often bring

a superseding indictment.

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So they could face twice,

three times this number of counts

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by the time they go to trial.

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This is just the start,

not just for others, but for them.

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Along with Mr Manafort,

a colleague called Richard

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Gates was also charged.

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But it is the third man that has

raised most eyebrows today.

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30-year-old George Papadopoulos.

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He is lower down the food

chain than Manafort.

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But he was a foreign policy adviser

and has admitted lying to the FBI

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about his Russian contacts.

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It turns out he was arrested in July

and has now been "co-operating"

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with the prosecutor.

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The White House spokesperson tried

to dismiss him as having little

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to do with the campaign.

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It was extremely limited.

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It was a volunteer position.

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And again no activity was ever done

in an official capacity on behalf

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of the campaign in that regard.

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The president's spokesperson

shrugging the news today off,

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his lawyer did the same.

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And of course Mr Trump himself.

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"Why aren't crooked Hillary

and the Dems the focus?"

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He tweeted.

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But as hew likes

to remind everybody,

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she didn't win, and he did.

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Which perhaps makes him a more

interesting subject.

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Well, we've heard about the central

characters in today's drama.

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Let's talk to the BBC World Affairs

correspondent Paul Wood who has been

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looking at this for a year now,

and in particular Mr Manafort's

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activities in Ukraine.

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Start with the news today. What, for

you, stuck out as most significant?

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There are three strands to the

Russia story - money, politics and

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sex. The sex stuff concerns

allegations the Russians have

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blackmail tapes of President Trump.

Didn't hear about that today. What

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we did hear is allegation that's

Paul Manafort got paid a lot of

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money when he was working as a

political consultant in Ukraine,

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which he then did not declare to the

US tax authorities. This is the

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overarching allegation that Russian

money in Ukrainian politics

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influenced Mr Manafort and that

turned into influence with President

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Trump when he was campaigning. This

intersects with the political

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argument, we have a Mr Papadopoulos.

He has admitted to having contacts

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with the Russians and lying to the

FBI about it. So these two things,

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money and politics, are converging.

Did money lead to political

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influence and did that lead to

collusion with the Russians in the

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election.

You have spent some time

in Ukraine, you have been gathering

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evidence of what Mr Manafort was up

to there, what have you learned?

The

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bad news for Mr Manafort started in

April 2016, when a page from a

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ledger belonging to the party of the

regions was leaked. Next to Mr

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Manafort's name was an amount 12.

$12.5 million. He's always denied

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that meant he got paid this money.

In Ukraine over the past week we

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were able to meet with people who

dealt with the secret internal

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investigation. They infiltrated an

agent in Mr Manafort's operation.

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They found and other sources tell

them that he was paid $600,000 a

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month over four years, 28. $28.8

million to be precise. That is the

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funds detailed in one ledger. They

believe there are two further

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ledgers. The sums really in the

words of one Ukrainian MP to me are

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staggering. The allegation is you

don't just get this from being a

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political conyouant. This is for

influence.

What do you make of the

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Trump defence today?

Their defence

is that it's all a witch-hunt. In Mr

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Manafort's case, I spoke to him

about this. He said he was trying to

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bring Ukraine closer to the West,

closer to the EU. He was getting

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paid as a political conthant. The

idea that he was a Russian agent is

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nonsense. Mr Trump has trotted out

this witch-hunt line quite a lo. He

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is right there is no evidence yet of

a treasonous conspiracy, no evidence

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of collusion. That intersection

between money and politics, the

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investigators are looking at whether

Russian money bought Trump real

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estate and they are looking at

meetings that Mr Trump's own son had

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with Russian officials. The same

problems that Mr Manafort is facing.

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Behind-the-scenes that's where the

investigators are looking to. (

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Let us assess the damage

a little more closely.

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Joining me from Washington

is Susan Glasser -

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founding Editor of the political

news magazine - Politico.

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And from Los Angeles Charlotte Laws

- author and political commentator.

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Charlotte, let's start with you -

how serious is this for the

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president?

I don't think it's

president at all. Manafort, the

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so-called or alleged financial

crimes, began a decade ago. Really

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they have absolutely nothing to do

with President Trump. The

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Papadopoulos situation is nothing as

well. He was a volunteer for the

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campaign. There was a movie recently

with Richard Gere called the rise

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and fall of the New York fixer, I

think this kid, and I say kid

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because 30 years old, probably

naive. He probably wanted to be

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indispensable to Trump. He wanted to

be a fixer, where he put together

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Trump with Putin. He had an ego

about. It he was over the internet

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talking about Trump liking him so

much. That's what it's really about.

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He's trying to make himself seem

bigger than he was really was. It

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just blew up on him because he

didn't realise there was something

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illegal with having to do this

activity.

Susan, do you think this

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is serious for the president? Which

of these two stories, the

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Papadopoulos one or the other one,

which is the more important?

Well,

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looking, the answers we don't know

yet. This is the first time since

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1974 when the campaign manager for

Richard Nixon was dieted and

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charged, that we've had something

like this in the United States. It

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is certainly a big deal, when the

Guy who was the campaign chairman

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for the man who then became the

president of the United States is

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dieted on charges that have to do

with influence peddling and that

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have to do with lying to the US

Federal Government about it, during

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and after the presidential campaign

we had last year. That's one thing.

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The Papadopoulos revelations are

really the big news in many ways in

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Washington today. It's a total

surprise. This is a story nobody

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knew anything about. It suggests how

tightly under wraps this

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investigation is. It does bring the

Russia collusion story directly

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inside the Trump campaign for the

first time.

One of the theories

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about all of this is that this is

just the start and the Manifesto

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Club story is going to turn out to

be much bigger because they've got

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something on him. Now they can start

trying to plead with him and get him

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to cooperate with them to avoid

serious jail sentences on the charge

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that's are currently facing him. If

that happens, don't you go step by

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step towards the White House itself?

Well, again...

Sorry, Susan first.

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The history of prosecutions suggests

that it's a very common tactic to

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bring charges on financial matters

or things like that and then to

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build the bigger case slowly, some

of the testimony that's emerged

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today, includes a lawyer for Mueller

saying at the plea hearing of George

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Papadopoulos that this was a small

part of a very large investigation.

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Many people here in Washington are

wondering very much how close to

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President Trump it does go. I think

a lot of people feel it stretches

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credibility to have the president

himself and also his White House

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spokesperson making such claims from

the Government podium today about

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the president having nothing to do

with any of this and making it seem

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as though the campaign chairman was

barely involved with the campaign.

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This is the kind of thing his

lawyers would never advise him to

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do, the president, to get in the

middle of commenting on this now.

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Don't you worry that this is just a

little step and there's going to be

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more steps and they will eventually

lead to the White House?

I don't

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think so. Because I don't think

there's any there there. It is

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possible that Mueller who has the

authority to take this investigation

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anywhere he wants, he might start

investigating the Democrats. There

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was a dossier funded by the

Democrats and Hillary Clinton. It's

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possible there could be indictments

across both aisles. This could be

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the end of the investigation. We

don't really know. We will have to

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wait and see.

We will, but Susan is

it the case that Trump supporters,

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at least for the time being, will

say look, this is just more people

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trying to obstruct the president

from getting on with what he wants

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to get on with. Just get out of the

way and let him be president.

0:13:110:13:15

Clearly this is what they're saying.

Your other guests seems to have the

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talking points hand out sheet. I

think you have to judge each piece

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of this on its own. People make a

mistake to be pun doubts when it

0:13:230:13:30

comes to an investigation, which we

know little to nothing about. It's

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clear that these are serious charges

that have been filed against Paul

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Manafort. The scale of the funds

involved are eye popping. What he's

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charged with here in the United

States is having $18 million in

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alleged money laundering flowing

through accounts. An additional $75

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million going through what amounted

to an effort to secretly lobby the

0:13:570:14:02

US government here in Washington on

behalf of Ukrainian president, and

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then to cover it up. Those are

serious allegations. One of the

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reasons this investigation started

with Paul Manafort, it should be

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noted. This investigation was

already occurring. Then it was

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wrapped up in the larger probe. So

there is a natural logic to it. We

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should take it for what it's worth

right now.

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Hard to believe that

the Harvey Weinstein scandal

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erupted only 25 days ago,

with a piece in the New York Times.

0:14:380:14:41

It was perhaps inevitable

that it would quickly

0:14:410:14:43

find its way to Westminster.

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Like Hollywood, Parliament

is a male-dominated,

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status obsessed environment,

where socialising and work

0:14:500:14:51

blend into each other.

0:14:510:14:52

And where ambitious young

people offer their labour

0:14:520:14:54

to the more powerful.

0:14:540:14:56

It's clear that sexual harassment

and assault have been far from rare,

0:14:560:14:59

and shoved under the threadbare

carpets of the Palace

0:14:590:15:01

of Westminster.

0:15:010:15:04

Oddly, one revelation is that

parliament has not really offered

0:15:040:15:07

employees working within its walls,

much protection or support.

0:15:070:15:12

But news of "What's App" groups

and sex pest dossiers have led

0:15:120:15:15

to a rapid reaction.

0:15:150:15:16

Westminster does not want this to be

a new Expenses scandal

0:15:160:15:19

or a return to sleaze.

0:15:190:15:22

Here's our political

editor, Nick Watt.

0:15:220:15:26

Very overly sexual

banter in the office.

0:15:260:15:31

Comments about your

physical appearance.

0:15:310:15:34

Your breasts, your body shape,

all that type of thing.

0:15:340:15:39

Groping, lunging, harassment

in terms of people asking

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you for dates and sort

of texting you nonstop.

0:15:420:15:45

Right up to things which probably

would cross into more

0:15:450:15:47

criminal activity as well.

0:15:470:15:55

Westminster, the Riverside Royal

Palace, which has a reputation

0:15:550:15:57

for protecting its own,

is being prised open.

0:15:570:16:01

Victims of sexual harassment now

feel able to speak out in the wake

0:16:010:16:05

of the Harvey Weinstein allegations.

0:16:050:16:08

And Parliament is responding.

0:16:080:16:10

Let me make it clear.

0:16:100:16:13

There must be zero tolerance

of sexual harassment or bullying

0:16:130:16:17

here at Westminster or elsewhere.

0:16:170:16:26

Whether that involves members

or their staff or Parliamentary

0:16:260:16:29

staff or those working

on or visiting the estate.

0:16:290:16:38

The government made clear that MPs

will have to change their ways.

0:16:380:16:43

I'm well aware that the public

rightly expect MPs to display

0:16:430:16:46

the highest standards.

0:16:460:16:49

And as the Prime Minister outlined

in her letter yesterday,

0:16:490:16:53

there can be no place

for harassment, abuse

0:16:530:16:55

or misconduct in politics.

0:16:550:17:00

Your age, gender or job title

should have no bearing

0:17:000:17:03

on the way you are treated

in a modern workplace.

0:17:030:17:08

And nobody is an exception to that.

0:17:080:17:11

Today did feel like

a significant moment.

0:17:110:17:14

As parliament finally caught up

with the 21st century.

0:17:140:17:17

MPs have traditionally guarded

their right to police Westminster.

0:17:170:17:21

The first challenge to that came

with the expenses scandal.

0:17:210:17:25

And now there is cross-party

consensus on the need

0:17:250:17:27

for an external process to support

victims of sexual harassment.

0:17:270:17:32

But some voices are wondering

whether today really

0:17:320:17:37

will be a seminal moment,

if MPs accused of inappropriate

0:17:370:17:39

behaviour are able to

remain in the shadows.

0:17:390:17:49

One Tory veteran does believes

change is on the way.

0:17:500:17:53

Ending the role of whips

policing complaints

0:17:530:17:54

about inappropriate behaviour.

0:17:540:17:55

One of the major roles of whips

is intelligence gathering.

0:17:550:17:58

To try and avoid problems

in the first place.

0:17:580:18:00

Not necessarily blackmail MPs,

but simply to avoid problems arising

0:18:000:18:04

if you know what their views

are on a number of subjects.

0:18:040:18:14

That is good whipping.

0:18:150:18:16

Whether the role of the whips to act

as some sort of quasi policeman,

0:18:160:18:20

particularly if a crime has not been

actually committed,

0:18:200:18:22

that is another question.

0:18:220:18:23

Every whip's office will have a big

0:18:230:18:25

black file on MPs and that

will include bad behaviour

0:18:250:18:28

including sexual harassment.

0:18:280:18:36

And sometimes there has been

a feeling that the whips office know

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there are people doing bad

behaviour, whether it is drinking

0:18:390:18:42

too much or you know

being inappropriate.

0:18:420:18:43

But they're not actually

going to do anything in terms

0:18:430:18:46

of disciplining those people.

0:18:460:18:47

But they will use that information

to help them when it comes

0:18:470:18:50

to leveraging them to vote

in a certain way or other things.

0:18:500:18:53

But Michael Fabricant

fears a witchhunt.

0:18:530:18:55

It's not fair, actually,

to base things on rumour.

0:18:550:18:58

There has to be evidence.

0:18:580:19:05

And there mustn't be

witchhunts either.

0:19:050:19:13

I feel there is a growing witchhunt

mentality currently going on

-

0:19:130:19:15

we've got to ensure that

inappropriate behaviour

0:19:150:19:17

is stamped out, it is wrong,

it is unprofessional.

0:19:170:19:19

But at the same time we do not

want to see individuals who have

0:19:190:19:23

been blameless being accused

of things which maybe they have not

0:19:230:19:25

really done or maybe at the time

everyone was sloshed,

0:19:250:19:28

I don't know.

0:19:280:19:30

You sometimes get that and we've got

to be very careful we don't get

0:19:300:19:33

into that situation.

0:19:330:19:37

Aisha believes this

is a deeply serious moment.

0:19:370:19:41

I have known it from my own

experience as I started at the age

0:19:410:19:44

of 21 in Westminster.

0:19:440:19:45

I was lunged at myself

and this happened a number

0:19:450:19:47

of times through my career.

0:19:470:19:49

This is not a problem which is just

restricted to one political party.

0:19:490:19:52

It is happening in every single

political party right now.

0:19:520:19:57

And I think what people

in positions of power, MPs,

0:19:570:20:00

need to know is that actually a lot

of women and younger men as well

0:20:000:20:03

have had enough of it and they're

talking to each other.

0:20:030:20:08

I think these lists are being

compiled across every

0:20:080:20:10

single party right now.

0:20:100:20:15

Westminster is a notoriously

secretive culture.

0:20:150:20:21

Pressure from the outside world may

at last force change.

0:20:210:20:24

Assuming no return to

the old closed ways.

0:20:240:20:34

Joining me is Bernard

Jenkin - Chairman

0:20:390:20:40

of the Constitutional Affairs Select

Committee.

0:20:400:20:42

And here in the studio -

Stella Creasey -

0:20:420:20:44

Labour MP for Walthamstow

and the Daily Telegraph's

0:20:440:20:46

Laura Hughes.

0:20:460:20:50

And Nick Watt has some late news.

The Sun newspaper reporting that

0:20:500:20:55

Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has

admitted in improperly touching a

0:20:550:20:59

female journalist, the radio

presenter Julia Hartley Brewer. This

0:20:590:21:05

happened 15 years ago it is

important to say and they both

0:21:050:21:08

considered the matter closed. A

spokesman for Michael Fallon said he

0:21:080:21:12

had apologised when the incident

happened 15 years ago and both he

0:21:120:21:15

and Julia now consider it close. A

friend of Michael Fallon says there

0:21:150:21:20

are good friends, he overstepped the

mark putting his hand on her knee

0:21:200:21:23

and she made clear it was unwelcome

and he immediately apologised 15

0:21:230:21:27

years ago. This came about because

Julia put out a lengthy statement

0:21:270:21:33

today and mentioned the incident,

did not mention who the minister

0:21:330:21:35

was. She did not think it was

serious enough. She said I regarded

0:21:350:21:42

it as mildly amusing.

Before getting

into the generalities, let's ask

0:21:420:21:48

about reaction to that particular

story. Bernard, we've heard some of

0:21:480:21:52

the context. What do you think?

Having read the comment from Julia,

0:21:520:22:01

making a distinction between what

might be proper harassment, she does

0:22:010:22:06

not consider that this was

harassment. She regards it as an

0:22:060:22:13

inappropriately flirtatious moment

and that is the end of it. And let

0:22:130:22:16

us be clear, the more serious issues

that are being discussed are where

0:22:160:22:21

people have wanted to complain, have

felt unable to complain or have

0:22:210:22:27

complained and legitimate complaints

have not been dealt with. That is

0:22:270:22:30

not in that category. It also tells

us that we are in a bit of a media

0:22:300:22:35

storm where anything is going to

generate a headline. However

0:22:350:22:39

trivial. I do not suggest that is

completely trivial but obviously

0:22:390:22:44

much less than this other stuff.

And

Stella Creasy, do you agree with

0:22:440:22:49

that on this specific case?

I'm not

the person we should be making a

0:22:490:22:56

judgment on this, we need processes

were professionals deal with

0:22:560:22:59

complaints. And the people involved

have the right to say what has

0:22:590:23:03

happened. This is one problem, this

kind of speculation.

But Julia was

0:23:030:23:08

not going to complain to anyone and

has made clear she would never have

0:23:080:23:12

done that. I agree that we need

professional systems for the we know

0:23:120:23:19

there are a series of complaints, a

series of concerns and we should

0:23:190:23:22

talk about how to address that

instead of individual cases.

Laura,

0:23:220:23:27

you have been working on this for

quite some time, before Harvey

0:23:270:23:32

Weinstein brought it into the public

domain. How big the problem is it in

0:23:320:23:37

Westminster and is it a bigger

problem in Westminster than anywhere

0:23:370:23:41

else in society customer you need to

look a parliament, 650 small

0:23:410:23:48

businesses as it were with no HR

department.

If you have that in the

0:23:480:23:51

real-world of course you would have

a handful of bad employers who acted

0:23:510:23:54

inappropriately. I've been looking

into MPs for a long time and talking

0:23:540:23:59

to a lot of staff it is a handful, a

large handful. 10%? I have worked

0:23:590:24:06

with some really good MPs who have

been determined to help expose this.

0:24:060:24:11

What I have been looking into, it is

a serious cases, I have spoken to

0:24:110:24:17

women who went to the Parliamentary

authorities and set them I have been

0:24:170:24:22

sexually assaulted by one of your

MPs. What are you going to do about

0:24:220:24:26

it and they were told there is

nothing we can do.

That is where the

0:24:260:24:30

scandal is in.

The scandal is

there's nothing to protect young

0:24:300:24:36

people. I myself am 25 and I started

to look into this because I got to

0:24:360:24:40

know a lot of researchers and staff

and it is not just sexual harassment

0:24:400:24:46

but also bullying, unreasonable

expectations because these are very

0:24:460:24:50

young people. Not just Tory men and

young females but every gender,

0:24:500:24:56

every party and in all different

angles. We need to be looking at the

0:24:560:25:03

cases where serious sexual assault

allegations have been made and not

0:25:030:25:07

acted upon. To me that is absolutely

extraordinary in 2017.

Let's turn to

0:25:070:25:17

MPs, Bernard Howell has Parliament

allowed this to persist? You don't

0:25:170:25:20

need Harvey Weinstein case to tell

you this is rubbish.

It is

0:25:200:25:27

particularly difficult to regulate

Parliament because as individuals

0:25:270:25:31

and as an institution we are

sovereign, we have to have

0:25:310:25:36

particular privileges and immunities

to fulfil our constitutional

0:25:360:25:41

function. And also to...

You don't

need to grow people.

I'm not

0:25:410:25:50

excusing that, I'm just saying why

it is difficult to regulate

0:25:500:25:53

Parliament. But Parliament tends to

be behind what is happening in other

0:25:530:25:59

corporations and public

institutions. Other public

0:25:590:26:01

institutions and dare I say the BBC

have had their difficulties with

0:26:010:26:04

this sort of thing and they are

catching up. And we had catching up

0:26:040:26:08

to do as well.

Why did you not raise

this?

You do not know that we had

0:26:080:26:20

not raised things. When you're

dealing with people who are in

0:26:200:26:24

positions of power and taking

powerful decisions, questions about

0:26:240:26:30

an imbalance of power, it is all

ultimately about professionalism.

0:26:300:26:35

Yup 650 small businesses with no HR

function, Laura is right. People

0:26:350:26:42

will not experience of managing

people. And not just Parliament, it

0:26:420:26:45

is about the political culture. Many

people who work in politics are

0:26:450:26:50

maybe those who want to go on to

positions, whether journalists,

0:26:500:26:54

researchers, working in think tanks

or whatever, the idea was speaking

0:26:540:26:57

out on someone, any woman or young

man who did that would know for the

0:26:570:27:05

rest of their career that would be

associated with them.

What is

0:27:050:27:09

important and what many young people

and any age in fact, working for an

0:27:090:27:15

MP, when you look at putting in a

new HR structure and must be

0:27:150:27:19

independent of Parliament.

Parliament is suffering.

Where you

0:27:190:27:29

have criminal matters they need to

be investigated. But were also

0:27:290:27:31

talking about a culture,

constructive dismissal essentially

0:27:310:27:35

because it is intolerable for anyone

to work in an environment where your

0:27:350:27:40

bullied or harassed, and actually...

I could be sacked for doing that but

0:27:400:27:47

the only people that can sack you

are the people who are appointed

0:27:470:27:52

you, the voters.

So can you sack an

MP? There are sanctions against MPs

0:27:520:27:58

which effectively would amount to

sacking. We have talked about

0:27:580:28:02

possibly having recall. That would

be an idea. But we have the code of

0:28:020:28:09

conduct, we would not be having this

conversation if that works. But when

0:28:090:28:15

you say health we called it out

before, the committee that I'd share

0:28:150:28:18

a submitted evidence to the review

of this thing we need a complete

0:28:180:28:22

rethink because there's a lot in

your buck lobbying and financial

0:28:220:28:27

interests and conflicts of interest.

A little bit about principles of

0:28:270:28:31

Public life at the beginning but

virtually nothing about how we

0:28:310:28:35

should discuss that, how we should

develop professional competencies as

0:28:350:28:39

employers. What kind of leaders we

should be seeking to develop.

But we

0:28:390:28:45

all know that groping is not

acceptable without reading the code

0:28:450:28:50

of conduct.

One worry I had today,

Andrea Leadsom talked about victims

0:28:500:28:56

but nothing about what could happen

to the perpetrators.

Would you

0:28:560:29:00

support recall, the voters being

told what was happening and given a

0:29:000:29:07

chance to do that.

That is one piece

of the armoury that we might deploy.

0:29:070:29:14

But it is the voters who will

appoint you. There's a huge amount

0:29:140:29:18

of confusion about values,

principles, rules and sanctions. It

0:29:180:29:22

needs a complete rethink. As there

has been a complete rethink in many

0:29:220:29:28

other walks of life but not in

Parliament.

I think if you're

0:29:280:29:33

confused about whether it is

appropriate to put your hand on

0:29:330:29:35

someone's knee... I think there is

an issue as well with constructive

0:29:350:29:39

dismissal and how to make sure it is

a professional working environment.

0:29:390:29:45

Belatedly sanctions as well and that

is what we did not hear today.

The

0:29:450:29:49

rules are confusing because looking

at the code of conduct and with

0:29:490:29:52

respect policy, it covers

relationships between house staff.

0:29:520:29:57

It does not deal with the

relationship between an MP and there

0:29:570:30:02

staff member. And it says that point

you might make about an MP might be

0:30:020:30:08

considered about their personal

life.

0:30:080:30:11

1 The whips have been the go to

people. You're assaulted by your

0:30:110:30:15

boss, you go to the whips, who are

the most cynical people, so

0:30:150:30:19

conflicting.

That's why there was

push back in our party against

0:30:190:30:23

so-called independent mediation

service because actually it was

0:30:230:30:25

proposed that the whips and party

volunteers should be the mediators,

0:30:250:30:31

including incidentally somebody from

Conservative future and look what

0:30:310:30:34

they turned out to be like. If we're

going to have an independent

0:30:340:30:38

mediation service -

The whips can't

do it can they?

No, the whips cannot

0:30:380:30:42

do it.

We need third party

reporting. I want it done by

0:30:420:30:50

professionals with experience with

sexual harassment or misogyny.

We

0:30:500:30:54

end on that note. Thank you.

0:30:540:30:58

Now - a lot has been

going in Westminster and the US,

0:30:580:31:01

but no-one is taking their eye off

Barcelona.

0:31:010:31:03

First day back at work in Catalonia

after the declaration

0:31:030:31:05

of independence on Friday,

and the decision of the Spanish

0:31:050:31:07

government to take more control over

what it sees as a renegade region.

0:31:070:31:10

Emily is there.

0:31:100:31:13

Thanks. A real sense of norm

al-Agassi in the square -- normalcy

0:31:130:31:21

in the square behind me. Madrid will

be breathing a huge sigh of relief

0:31:210:31:25

tonight. All eyes on how the central

government would act after its

0:31:250:31:30

incredibly heavy handed violent

approach with the voters last month

0:31:300:31:32

in the referendum that viewers will

remember well. Today, there was

0:31:320:31:36

little physical sign of

interference, but there was one very

0:31:360:31:40

large threat - charges of treason

brought against Carles Puigdemont,

0:31:400:31:47

the sacked Catalan president, by

Spanish prosecutors. Tonight it's

0:31:470:31:50

confirmed he has fled to Belgium to

seek political asylum. He's due o

0:31:500:31:54

give a press conference there

tomorrow. We don't know exactly

0:31:540:31:57

where. Some already fear a

diplomatic incident could be brewing

0:31:570:32:01

between Belgium and Spain. Here,

meanwhile, no-one's even attempting

0:32:010:32:06

to pretend they know what happens

now. We're going to be talking to a

0:32:060:32:10

key member of the independence

movement on the left in a moment.

0:32:100:32:13

First this is my attempt to make

sense of today.

0:32:130:32:19

In the silhouettes of Barcelona's

Gothic streets we find ourselves

0:32:190:32:23

checking every face, every corner,

the familiar figure of Carles

0:32:230:32:27

Puigdemont hasn't been seen for

days. The city's a strange twilight

0:32:270:32:32

zone. No-one's sure who's in charge

or how it's run. The shadowed wing

0:32:320:32:37

span of Madrid hovers over this

autonomous region. It may be about

0:32:370:32:41

to swoop. It hasn't yet. By

daylight, we're all at the central

0:32:410:32:46

square, looking for answers to the

simplest question: Who will turn up

0:32:460:32:50

to work. This is a quiet market

square, one huge political

0:32:500:32:57

conundrum. Behind me the government

of Catalonia now under the control

0:32:570:33:04

of the Madrid government after they

invoked article 155 and on this side

0:33:040:33:10

the City Hall, home to the Barcelona

male who resists article 155. At the

0:33:100:33:16

moment it's still hers. Who knows

how that will change over coming

0:33:160:33:19

days. The deposed president of

Catalonia set Instagram alight first

0:33:190:33:24

thing, posting this picture of his

office with a cheery "good day". He

0:33:240:33:33

tells me he thinks he's inside. "He

came in, he waved at the people," he

0:33:330:33:40

says. We find out it's not actually

true. I ask the Catalan police

0:33:400:33:45

guarding the building in the

ministers are inside. He tells me he

0:33:450:33:48

doesn't know. If they don't clear

their desks, I ask? We know nothing,

0:33:480:33:54

he repeats. We're just here to keep

the peace. Misinterpretation and

0:33:540:34:01

misinformation have been at the

heart of this whole story. Madrid

0:34:010:34:04

re-Kently declared it wanted to

"restore impartiality to the Catalan

0:34:040:34:08

air waves". So we head to TV 3.

Hi

Emily.

The Government funded

0:34:080:34:17

broadcaster to ask rack el, the main

news presenter, if anything has

0:34:170:34:22

changed.

We're under scrutiny but

that doesn't force me to do things

0:34:220:34:26

differently. I keep on being

critical, as I try to be everysingle

0:34:260:34:31

day, which is complicated under

these circumstances. But we don't

0:34:310:34:34

allow that to stop us to do the job

that we have to do.

Do you feel

0:34:340:34:39

there is pressure from Puigdemont,

from his team, to tell the story in

0:34:390:34:42

a certain way? Have you come under

that pressure politically as a

0:34:420:34:45

journalist?

No. Not my colleagues, I

bet this happens on like higher

0:34:450:34:52

levels I would say, but not here in

the newsroom. All politicians try to

0:34:520:34:56

influence. It would be naive not to

accept that.

As we talk, we hear

0:34:560:35:01

news from Madrid - Spain's

prosecutor has brought charges of

0:35:010:35:05

sedition and rebellion against the

deposed Catalan president. Now it's

0:35:050:35:10

up to Puigdemont's party to respond.

The hastily assembled press

0:35:100:35:16

conference is a messy affair. Will

he go jail? He's facing charges now?

0:35:160:35:20

The charges are there, but I think

that democracy should be the

0:35:200:35:25

reference and we cannot accept what

is the general attorney is saying.

0:35:250:35:31

We will face these charges. But of

course we will be always with the

0:35:310:35:35

president, with the members of the

Parliament and of course with the

0:35:350:35:38

president of the Parliament.

She

won't tell us where Puigdemont is.

0:35:380:35:42

It soon emerges he, perhaps his

entire government, have fled to

0:35:420:35:47

Belgium, where they've been offered

some form of political asylum. Just

0:35:470:35:50

when you thought things couldn't get

any weirder, imagine the

0:35:500:35:53

implications of this - one European

country, with its own separatist

0:35:530:35:57

issues, stepping in to save another

European leader from jail by his own

0:35:570:36:03

central government. Deep breaths

needed.

0:36:030:36:08

Mr Puigdemont won the heart of

separatists when he declared

0:36:080:36:13

Catalonia a state last Friday. Mass

demonstrations by unionists over the

0:36:130:36:17

weekend are a timely reminder he's

left many others furious.

What's

0:36:170:36:24

happening here is like Puigdemont is

a dictator, that's it. Catalonia we

0:36:240:36:29

were living fine, so why it's

happening that now? I don't really

0:36:290:36:33

know why people need to make this to

Catalonia.

I lost a lot of friends,

0:36:330:36:38

like we talk about politics, it's

impossible to talk about because

0:36:380:36:45

they turn aggressive and don't

respect the other's opinion.

Perhaps

0:36:450:36:51

it's only when the streets fall

silent again you realise the noise

0:36:510:36:55

on either side comes from a pretty

small minority. Most people, even

0:36:550:37:00

those proud to call themselves born

and bred Catalans, simply don't

0:37:000:37:04

understand why their leader chose

this fight right now, when the

0:37:040:37:08

economic crisis is finally at an

end, when Catalonia appears to be

0:37:080:37:12

doing so well. Make no mistake, this

may have begun here in Barcelona,

0:37:120:37:17

but its repercussions stretch across

the country and the continent

0:37:170:37:19

itself. Something's been unleashed,

no-one quite knows whether it will

0:37:190:37:24

go back in its cage or seek new

pastures to prowl.

0:37:240:37:31

I guess that's what we're going to

find out over the coming days,

0:37:310:37:35

whether that something will actually

take root, have momentum or whether

0:37:350:37:38

we'll see it quietly fade again to

nothing, at least until the upcoming

0:37:380:37:43

elections of December 21. With me

now Alfred Bosc from the Republican

0:37:430:37:51

pro-Independence Party, a key voice

on the left. Do you think this is a

0:37:510:37:54

day that Madrid can call a success,

because actually, no violence, it's

0:37:540:37:59

gone according to plan and the whole

Catalan government, as we

0:37:590:38:01

understand, is in Belgium?

For the

first time, we must admit that the

0:38:010:38:06

Spanish government instead of

resorting to violence and repression

0:38:060:38:09

have had the day in the sense that

they can argue that they have a

0:38:090:38:14

democratic solution or exit to the

conflict. Although, of course, as

0:38:140:38:18

you know, the Catalan government has

been sacked. It was a democratically

0:38:180:38:24

elected government. Hundreds of

people are being sacked. Of course,

0:38:240:38:28

the memory of the referendum where

people were brutalised by the

0:38:280:38:32

police. Now I think they've found,

probably because somebody pressed

0:38:320:38:37

them, democratic exit out of this

conflict.

So do you think that

0:38:370:38:40

Puigdemont has done the right thing

by leaving to go to Belgium? Or does

0:38:400:38:44

it seem to you cowardly - is he

running away from the fight here?

0:38:440:38:48

Please remind the whole world that

there's half of a government that's

0:38:480:38:52

in Belgium and the other half of the

Catalan government that's here in

0:38:520:38:55

Barcelona right now. We saw them

this morning going to their offices

0:38:550:38:59

-

That was one person here who

turned up to work. That's what we

0:38:590:39:02

understood.

No, the Vice President,

I was with the Vice President the

0:39:020:39:07

whole day. He's from my party. He

went to his office. He went to the

0:39:070:39:13

party executive. He went to

Parliament.

What is he doing here

0:39:130:39:19

now, though? There's nothing for him

to run. He's been sacked. He's not

0:39:190:39:23

in charge. What work is he doing?

He's not accepting as a whole. We're

0:39:230:39:30

not accepting the repressive

measures of the government. These

0:39:300:39:33

people were elected. They were

chosen by Parliament through these

0:39:330:39:37

Catalan elections. For us those are

the only legitimate rulers of

0:39:370:39:42

Catalonia.

Today we heard from

Puigdemont's own party that yes,

0:39:420:39:45

they will go and fight the elections

in December 21. This is a concession

0:39:450:39:51

to Madrid that that's going to be

the next step. These are elections

0:39:510:39:55

called by Madrid, right.

It's a

concession by everybody, because

0:39:550:39:58

obviously what you say is right. But

we also have to admit that Rajoy

0:39:580:40:05

said there would be no elections in

the near future. He said at least

0:40:050:40:08

six months or one year of direct

rule by Spain and finish whatever

0:40:080:40:14

was present here in terms of home

rule.

Do you feel the effects of

0:40:140:40:19

article 155 now on this city?

Yeah.

Of course. Like the whole government

0:40:190:40:25

has been kicked out. In theory, at

least, you find people working as

0:40:250:40:31

usual. But they've been kicked out.

The decareer has been -- decree has

0:40:310:40:42

been signed. It's a tricky

situation, where reality doesn't

0:40:420:40:46

really fit in with all the laws and

orders that Madrid is giving. We're

0:40:460:40:53

somewhere in between. We'll see how

things evolve.

Very good of you to

0:40:530:40:56

join us here. Thanks for your

thoughts. This is the building

0:40:560:41:01

behind me where Carles Puigdemont

would ideally be making his press

0:41:010:41:05

conference speeches from tomorrow.

Of course, he's not. The sacked

0:41:050:41:09

former Catalan president is now in

Belgium. He's going to be speaking

0:41:090:41:13

to what we assume will be the

world's press from there. It will be

0:41:130:41:18

an interesting week ahead. Back to

you.

0:41:180:41:24

Just time to look at the papers. The

Daily Telegraph, we heard from Laura

0:41:240:41:27

Hughes there. She was next to me

earlier, sex scandal could be worse

0:41:270:41:32

than expenses is their headline. A

picture of Manafort, no Kevin Spacey

0:41:320:41:41

on the front. And on the Times as

well. Ministers face being fired in

0:41:410:41:46

sex pests crack down.

Both papers leading on that.

0:41:460:41:50

That's all we have time for.

0:41:500:41:52

Kirsty's here tomorrow.

0:41:520:41:53

Till then, goodnight.

0:41:530:41:54

Is the FBI investigation getting closer to the president? Sexual harassment in Parliament. The Catalan president flees to Brussels.


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