07/02/2018 Newsnight


07/02/2018

Evan Davis with the latest on Brexit and an interview with the daughter of a kidnapped Chinese bookseller. Plus, what is the significance of new superhero film Black Panther?


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Transcript


LineFromTo

It's Brexit decision time folks.

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Scarecrows don't talk.

It's pleasant

tone that we too. Of course people

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do go both ways.

Are you doing that

on purpose or can you not make up

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your mind?

That is the trouble, I

cannot make up my mind!

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We've been pondering

on it for 19 months,

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but now a crucial cabinet committee

is trying to argue out

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what kind of Brexit we want.

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It'll take some wizardry

for them to reach agreement.

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But here in the studio,

we'll hear some of the arguments.

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Easier trade with the EU,

or more independence from it?

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What kind of customs

border do we want?

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Also tonight, the other great

debate - Internet reform.

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Are tech companies

platforms or publishers -

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should they take responsibility

for what gets posted on their sites?

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The companies are realising they

have two act and if they do not the

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danger is for them that governments

will start to legislate.

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And, Black Panther the movie.

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The first black Marvel

comic superhero film -

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it's wowing critics.

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What's its significance?

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We'll discuss with the guy who wrote

the comic and a film critic.

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Hello.

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Well, we've been debating

and dithering for over a year,

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perhaps more dithering

than debating, but one thing

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everybody agrees on now,

is that we can't go

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on delaying a choice.

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We have to tell the EU

"this is our vision

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of a new relationship",

and annoyingly, it has to be

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a realistic vision at that.

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So it is crunch time -

and this could be the biggest two

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days of Theresa May's premiership,

because the Brexit cabinet

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sub-committee is thrashing

out the arguments.

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Call it soft or hard

Brexit, Norway, or Canada.

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How do we finesse that stark choice?

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We'll rehearse some of the arguments

they have undoubtedly been having

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but a little briefing first.

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Here's Nick Watt.

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From wars to peacetime,

it's grand corridors and gilded

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rooms have witnessed some

of the great decisions

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in British history.

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Theresa May had assumed

she would stamp her mark

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on our history by shaping Brexit

within the walls of Downing Street.

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And so today, ministers

on the Cabinet's Brexit subcommittee

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gathered to discuss the nature

of the UK's future

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relationship with the EU.

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Progress was said to be slow today.

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One source close to a Cabinet

minister complained to me that it

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all had the feel of kicking

decisions into the long grass.

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Another source expressed confidence

that the Cabinet as a whole

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would reach agreement

by the end of the month.

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But today's meeting was held

as senior Tories acknowledge

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that the Cabinet is not the only

source of power in shaping Brexit.

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Beyond Downing Street there are two

other centres of power.

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Parliament may well

have a significant say.

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Brexiteer Tories are already

making their presence felt.

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But a combination of an evolving

Labour Party and the House of Lords

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could force the government's

hand in other ways.

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And then, of course,

there is the EU, which

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appears to be playing

hardball at the moment.

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Until recently, it had been assumed

that Parliament could,

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at best, take potshots

at the government on Brexit.

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Now pro-European MPs and peers have

far grander ambitions.

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These parliamentarians want to amend

the EU withdrawal bill in the House

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of Lords on access to the single

market and on a customs relationship

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with the EU in a way that would be

acceptable to the Labour Party

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and pro-European Tories

when the bill returns

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to the House of Commons.

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One source close to a Cabinet

minister told me there are Remain

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ministers who want Parliament

to do their work for them.

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These pro-Europeans believe

they have been vindicated

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by a government assessment

of the economic

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consequences of Brexit.

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A breakdown of the UK regions shows

that, under a no-deal scenario,

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the size of the economy in the Leave

heartland of the north-east

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of England would be 16% smaller

in 15 years compared

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with current forecasts.

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In the West Midlands,

another Leave area,

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the figure would be 13%.

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London, a Remain stronghold,

would be the least

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effected by slower growth.

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The government says these

are provisional findings.

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And of course the EU

will have its say.

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The European Commission is proposing

sanctions to punish the UK

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during the transition period if it

breaches EU rules.

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One Cabinet minister told me

it was a deliberately

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provocative negotiating ploy.

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The power to shape Brexit may well

be spreading beyond Downing Street.

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For the moment, though, the ball

sits with its current inhabitants.

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Nick is with me.

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You must have more Intel on what

inside the crucial meeting today?

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Interesting speech this evening by

the Prime Minister to the

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conservative black-and-white ball,

she said ever since the British

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people delivered board and the

referendum I have had no doubt about

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what our new relationship with the

EU must mean, control of our money,

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control of our borders and control

of our laws. She's knocking on the

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head the idea that she does not have

a for Brecon. -- Brexit. I have to

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say I am hearing some pretty gloomy

accounts, one source close to a

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cabinet minister said to me there

was a dreary reading out of

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preprepared scripts. Another source

said the only thing they could agree

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on was that they disagree but I have

to say Theresa May loyalists are

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saying they do not recognise those

accounts and they are absolutely

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confident there will be agreement.

What is the choreography and timing?

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What is the process?

Today was a

norther Ireland and immigration,

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tomorrow is the future relationship

with the EU and the trade

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relationship with the EU and there

is to be a third meeting later this

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month and the idea then is that the

full Cabinet will look and agree

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with what they have come up with and

that is to do two things. By the

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time you have EU Council at the end

of March there would be agreement

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between the UK and EU on the

implementation period. There are

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difficulties on that at the moment.

And the other thing is for the UK to

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tell the EU what it once for a

future trade relationship so the UK

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can influence the council guidelines

which are then due to go to the

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European Commission.

Thank you very

much.

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So, the key decisions

are about borders and regulation.

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Do we rebuild our own customs

border with the EU?

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A border that allows us and the EU

to monitor or tax our trade and thus

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have separate trade policies?

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How do we solve the Irish

problem if we do?

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On regulation, we won't be

in the single market,

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but should we agree to align our

product regulations with theirs,

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so that border checks are minimal?

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We have a panel of two commentators

and two politicians,

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from different perspectives.

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Jill Rutter is Programme Director

for the Institute for Government.

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Dr Andrew Lilico is Executive

Director of Europe Economics

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I'm also joined by DUP

MP Ian Paisley Jr -

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his party supported Brexit -

and Conservative MP and former

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Attorney General Dominic Grieve,

who supported Remain.

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Good evening to you all. We will

have a less dreary discussion than

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what they had on the subcommittee.

Ian Paisley if you were in there

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today, 40 seconds, what would be

your opening gambit on the trade

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relationship?

I think they missed

the mac -- the Prime Minister a

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spell that out tonight, this is

about the British people being in

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control of their own destiny. We

want to make sure we have a free

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trade relationship going forward

with the EU. Given that they have as

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much to lose any bad deal as we have

to lose this is about getting a good

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deal for all of the British people

and we need to stop being so

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negative about this and pessimistic.

I am sorry. I just want to hear. I

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don't want to be political, I want

to hear your practical suggestion

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for a customs union and regulatory

alignment, what is your pitch not to

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Theresa May, what are you telling

her to take to the Europeans?

We

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want a really good fisheries deal,

that is key for us.

The key thing

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is, trade and...

Money makes the

world go round and trade here will

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determine the drive and politicians

like us and everyone else want to

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have a good trading deal and a good

relationship.

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relationship.

Is Canada OK, Canada

take deal?

I think it's daft to say

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it must be like Canada or

Switzerland, we need a good bespoke

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deal for the next kingdom.

From

watching of Herod, how will the

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Europeans react and does it make

sense, Andrew?

There is sympathy at

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the European level for having a free

trade agreement, probably one that

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includes some services, they are not

sure how much financial services

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they would want to include, but

there is some pushback about exactly

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what will happen on the Irish

border.

We will come to that!

I

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think the EU...

He is talking about

Canada take deal, they would

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interpret that as Canada?

Yeah, or

Canada plus a few extras. It will

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not be just like a Canada deal so

politically would not want to say it

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is a Canada deal but it is broadly

in that realm.

Negatives and

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positives of that deal?

The EU has

lots of trade agreements with lots

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of countries, there is no reason not

to have one with the UK but what it

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does mean is there will be there

quite up panoply of things at the

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border. It means we can run a

different trade policy and have

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different tariffs, we are not

applying the common external tariff

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is a potential Bert Harris at that

border which is an issue for Ireland

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we need to work out. It would also

enable us to do trade deals with

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other countries but that means we

might commit of regulatory alignment

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so for example a lot of talk in the

summer about a trade deal with the

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US. We know some of the things they

want like letting in agriculture

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regulation under their terms which

are different from the EU approach

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to regulation. The EU would want to

make sure the UK border and

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particularly the border in Ireland

does not become a back door into the

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single market with different

standards.

It does not sound like

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you have solved the Irish problem

with that.

The Irish problem is a

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particle at the core problem in the

south of Ireland. -- a party but her

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problem in the south of Ireland. It

is not in the Republic of Ireland's

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interest to have a troublesome

border.

But they need to enforce...

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If they start putting up enforcement

tariffs that is a matter for them

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given most of the trade is with

ourselves and the united states of

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America I think they would be

foolish to do that.

They might see

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it differently.

They want to have a

bad relationship of us? Come on.

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Dominic Grieve, where would you

start the meeting like this one

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today?

If the Prime Minister can

achieve what she set out in her

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Lancaster House and Florence

speeches why should I complain? We

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would effectively have our cake and

eat it. Complete access to the

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single market is if we were still in

it, there would be no tariffs

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because we would have succeeded in

finding the magic we are dealing

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with it and at the same time we

would not be bound by those EU

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regulations which are clearly

objectionable to some of my

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colleagues. That's not the problem.

The problem is logically its most

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unlikely we are going to get that.

Because the EU will not give it to

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us because it undermines their

integrity.

So what would you

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suggest?

You have to do a cost

benefit analysis of where the best

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benefit for the next kingdom lies

and the best benefit lies in our

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ability to trade to the maximum

possible in providing goods and

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services, free of regulatory

inhibition with our European

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partners because they are our

closest trading partners and no

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other trading partners elsewhere in

the world are ever likely to

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substitute themselves for it.

So in

the customs union, or a customs

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union, I'm sorry I get stuck on

them...

It would have to be a

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customs union and all I would say

about that and here I think I

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disagree is if we are honouring the

agreement we reached in December and

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outlines with the EU on the terms of

withdrawal I find it difficult to

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see how we will not be in a customs

union because unless somebody comes

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up with some extraordinary technical

way of avoiding the checks which

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would have to go with it we will end

up with a hard border. I know we

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don't want that but it's not

completely an issue for the Irish

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Republic, it's actually an issue for

the EU and the Irish Republic will

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be forced to have that border even

if they don't want it.

By the EU.

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THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER

They

cannot escape that.

Plusses and

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minuses of what Dominic Grieve

outlined Andrew?

OK so a key plus is

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you would not have rules of origin

or other kinds of things, less

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bureaucracy as you deal internally

with trade within the European Union

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but she would have an ability to do

trade deals externally severely

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impaired so that might raise the

question of if you have taken back

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control over trade policy which

might be one of the things people

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thought they were voting for. I

don't think it addresses the Irish

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border question because if you have,

if you have different issues...

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Different regulations...

You still

need to check things so it just

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takes away the tariff question.

Necessary but not efficient?

I think

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whatever would be your solution to

the regulatory difference would

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allow you to check the tariffs so I

don't think it solves the question

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or is a requirement for solving the

question.

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The Dominic Grieve option, is that

an option? They keep saying you can

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have Norway or Canada and nothing in

between.

Norway is not in the

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customs union, it is a member of the

single market, and that is why the

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Norway Swedish border has been

visited by almost every

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Parliamentary select committee

Lakra. There are checks at that

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border, at the US and Canada border

and they have a free-trade

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agreement. None of those countries

you get a refund if you go and buy

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something expensive in Iceland, you

get your VAT back at the border

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because it is not in the customs

union said the question is do we

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want to be both in the single market

and the customs union and that is

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what we are in now. Obviously still

being part of the single market

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comes with ECJ jurisdiction...

And

you're just advocating some...

I

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have the sake as a lawyer and

contours of the fact that whatever

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trade agreement you get into,

somebody is around to arbitrate it

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and the session we have with the

European Court of Justice seems to

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slightly missed the point although I

do understand that direct effect is

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a particular problem.

We have little

time, it sounds like we are miles

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apart... Can I offer a solution?

That you have a customs union for

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goods and things that crossed the

border, physical products, and

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complete freedom to negotiate new

trade deals?

If we are outside these

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in the market I don't think were

going to get a customs union for

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services anyway so I think we

talking about one for goods in the

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context of Ireland and therefore the

Holebas. These are very complex

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issues of detail. I'm not saying

they are insoluble but they are, get

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the -- and therefore the whole of

us. But do we simple by them and

0:16:550:17:00

thence Ah Mau gets up right when

they are difficult to fix?

There are

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deals all over the world, this is

not a major issue that should stop

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is doing trade. My fear is that

unfortunately what you see appears

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to be that we have given up on

Britain and the British people

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getting on with it and making a

great trade deal going forward,

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that's the downside.

Can your

parties about this? That matter your

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party survive this?

I very much hope

so but I do recognise that there are

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deep divisions.

Anna Soubry said on

this programme but she could not

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serve under Jacob Rees-Mogg and you

couldn't...

That is a hypothetical.

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But these are held together not

necessarily by people agreeing on

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everything but by ties of loyalty

and affection. Clearly there can

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come a point in a process of party

with the ties of loyalty and

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affection get so stressed that it

snaps and that is when the party

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starts to fall apart. The difficulty

is that we are a party which

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historically has been very pragmatic

in its approach to problems and we

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have just introduced, by a

revolutionary means they recommend,

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a deep ideological division. And for

a pragmatic party to get over that

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and absorb the ideological division

and come together to deliver

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pragmatic government is clearly an

immense challenge but then look at

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Labour. They are as equally divided,

they are all over the place and they

0:18:300:18:33

cannot answer any of the similar

questions about what they want.

But

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yet but the country first and not

the party, the interests of our

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traders and people come and we will

get over this and you have too.

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Thank you very much indeed.

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Viewed with western eyes,

the Chinese system of justice has

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not exactly lived up to the word

justice, in its pursuit of one case,

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relating to five booksellers.

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It's a fascinating story this,

going back a few years.

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They operated from a business based

in Hong Kong, called

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Causeway Bay Books which published

and sold political gossip among

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other titles, clearly not

to the liking of the authorities

0:19:050:19:08

in mainland China.

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In response, the authorities have

dealt with the five men harshly,

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appearing to cross all sorts

of lines in the process.

0:19:140:19:18

It all started when the men

mysteriously disappeared

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from different locations

in late 2015.

0:19:220:19:25

Tonight we'll focus on one of them,

Gui Minhai, Chinese born,

0:19:250:19:29

but a Swedish national,

and whose daughter is with me.

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Here's a brief chronology.

0:19:320:19:33

On October 17th, 2015,

Gui left his holiday

0:19:350:19:38

apartment in Pattaya,

Thailand, with a man in a striped

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shirt who was speaking

Chinese on his phone.

0:19:430:19:49

He wasn't seen again

for three months.

0:19:490:19:50

Then, in January 2016,

he turned up in China,

0:19:500:19:52

claiming on state media

that he voluntarily turned himself

0:19:520:19:55

into answer to a drunk

driving incident from 2003,

0:19:550:19:57

that had reportedly resulted

in the death of a student.

0:19:570:20:03

For the best part of two years

he was held in detention in mainland

0:20:030:20:09

China without legal assistance

or consular access.

0:20:090:20:13

Then, in October last year, having

apparently served his sentence

0:20:130:20:18

for a traffic offence,

he was released and began

0:20:180:20:21

living under surveillance

in a police-managed flat

0:20:210:20:23

in the eastern city of Ningbo.

0:20:230:20:27

Until January 20th this year,

when he was travelling with Swedish

0:20:270:20:30

consular officials to get some

medical attention in Beijing.

0:20:300:20:34

He was picked up and detained

again by Chinese police.

0:20:340:20:36

The Swedes say there were as many

as ten officers waiting for him

0:20:360:20:39

at the train station.

0:20:390:20:44

Well, I'm joined by Gui Minhai's

daughter, Angela Gui.

0:20:440:20:49

Good evening to you. Tell us what

contact you have had with your

0:20:490:20:52

father.

From the very beginning, in

2015, when he first disappeared, I

0:20:520:21:03

did not have very much contact at

all for those two years he was in

0:21:030:21:06

custody. I had a couple of written

messages on Skype in which he mostly

0:21:060:21:13

told me to keep quiet because it was

going to hurt his case if I didn't.

0:21:130:21:19

I chose not to and I was not about

to speak to him any more, I had a

0:21:190:21:23

few phone calls in which he was

trying to persuade me to not speak

0:21:230:21:26

to media.

And what do you know about

his current condition? He was

0:21:260:21:33

apparently seeking medical help when

he was arrested this time.

Yes. I

0:21:330:21:39

was allowed to speak to him after he

was nominally released in October

0:21:390:21:44

last year.

Three months then.

Yes,

when he was in lured and I was

0:21:440:21:54

allowed to Skype with him almost

every day. -- when he was in Ningbo.

0:21:540:21:59

I found out a lot about his health

condition. He has been diagnosed

0:21:590:22:03

with a less by eight knowledges to

in Ningbo. -- by a neurologist.

0:22:030:22:13

Motor neurone disease.

Yes, although

they said that because of the lack

0:22:130:22:18

of specialism in ALS in China, they

suggested he travelled abroad for

0:22:180:22:23

medical care.

The most remarkable

thing about this case surely has to

0:22:230:22:29

be what looks like an abduction by

the Chinese from a property in

0:22:290:22:33

Thailand.

Yes.

0:22:330:22:38

Thailand.

Yes.

We just didn't think

that went on very often or am I

0:22:380:22:42

being naive? That is very surprising

in 2015. Are we sure that is what

0:22:420:22:48

happened? He came out and said that

is not what happened but nobody

0:22:480:22:51

believed his confession.

There is a

Chinese official version of what

0:22:510:22:56

happened in which he is supposed to

have travelled on his own, for some

0:22:560:23:01

reason leaving behind his passport

and not entering the country legally

0:23:010:23:06

in order to turn himself in for this

alleged traffic accident that he is

0:23:060:23:11

supposed to have caused back in

2003, for which we have not seen any

0:23:110:23:16

evidence yet. But of course there

are a lot of questions to be asked

0:23:160:23:22

about that narrative.

Of course. Can

I give you the Chinese state would

0:23:220:23:27

question the embassy said, " Cobra

has piloted the law in China,

0:23:270:23:32

criminal enforcement measures have

been taken, China Bob McNair

0:23:320:23:37

judicial sovereignty must be respect

and the legal case in Berlin, though

0:23:370:23:41

a Swedish citizen, must be dealt

with in accordance with the law in

0:23:410:23:44

China. " And that must be right,

even if you are Swedish, if you

0:23:440:23:49

break the law in China the Chinese

are entitled to do whatever in the

0:23:490:23:55

country.

Yes. I think it is great

that they have promised to act in

0:23:550:24:02

accordance with the law in China but

I would like to ask them how they

0:24:020:24:07

have acted according to the law in

China, especially because they did

0:24:070:24:13

not seize him in China, they seized

him in Thailand, which breaks

0:24:130:24:18

several international laws,

presumably breaks Thai law.

Is it a

0:24:180:24:27

dilemma, you can see making a fuss

and highlighting the case can make

0:24:270:24:32

them digging their heels? And some

would say maybe it is better to do

0:24:320:24:36

this under the radar, you must have

that dilemma?

Yes, I have been

0:24:360:24:40

feeling that for over two years now.

I don't think one has to choose one

0:24:400:24:45

way or another. I think there are

different ways of doing advocacy and

0:24:450:24:50

I think that in this case, and of

course I might be wrong, because

0:24:500:24:56

this case is unprecedented in so

many ways as you mentioned, but I

0:24:560:25:02

think that in this case it is very

important to also be public about

0:25:020:25:05

it.

0:25:050:25:10

it. Because of the encouragement

that I had from my dad when he was

0:25:110:25:16

in custody and he told me to not

speak to the media and other

0:25:160:25:19

governments, I thought that that

must surely reflect fear and people

0:25:190:25:27

telling you what to say.

Angela Gui,

thank you very much.

0:25:270:25:35

YouTube or Facebook:

publisher or platform?

0:25:350:25:37

It is the defining

debate of our time -

0:25:370:25:39

those concerned about polluted

public discourse want

0:25:390:25:40

the social media giants

to be seen as publishers,

0:25:400:25:43

taking responsibility

for what appears on their screens.

0:25:430:25:45

The companies - keen not to take

responsibility for everything posted

0:25:450:25:47

and reposted on their sites -

like to think of themselves not

0:25:470:25:50

as publishers, but as a mere

shelf on to which others

0:25:500:25:53

put their publications.

0:25:530:25:55

But there's an interesting history

to this distinction -

0:25:550:25:58

a legal position deriving

from a different country

0:25:580:25:59

and a different era,

that has somehow found itself

0:25:590:26:02

dictating the treatment

of the tech giants.

0:26:020:26:09

All that may, however, be changing,

as our technology editor,

0:26:090:26:11

David Grossman, reports.

0:26:110:26:13

DIAL-UP MODEM SOUNDS.

0:26:130:26:18

The internet...

0:26:180:26:21

It's strange to think that we don't

even really know when it

0:26:210:26:24

started but it used to fit

on a single computer...

0:26:240:26:29

Would we have been nearly so excited

in the mid-90s when we unboxed

0:26:290:26:32

the consumer internet given

all the bad stuff that we now

0:26:320:26:35

know also lurked inside?

0:26:350:26:40

Like Pandora, we must

all make our own balance sheet

0:26:400:26:42

of its contents of the good

and the harm.

0:26:420:26:47

It is a complete accident

that the internet looks

0:26:470:26:49

and feels the way it does,

a sort of lawless Wild West

0:26:490:26:54

where people can say and do more

or less anything they want.

0:26:540:26:56

It is certainly not

what the politicians had in mind.

0:26:560:27:01

However, a tiny clause in one law

passed in the United States 20 years

0:27:010:27:04

ago more or less props up

the whole thing.

0:27:040:27:09

Internet freedom has always been

controversial but now there is more

0:27:090:27:12

pressure than ever to reform this

law, with profound, perhaps even

0:27:120:27:15

chilling consequences for all of us.

0:27:150:27:21

I think we are at a really dangerous

moment for free expression online.

0:27:210:27:25

There are politicians

responding to public concern,

0:27:250:27:28

saying we must do something

and what they do is not clear.

0:27:280:27:36

The tech companies are realising

they have to act and if they don't

0:27:370:27:40

act, the danger is for them that

governments will start to legislate.

0:27:400:27:43

In the early 90s, the reaction

of many lawmakers to the internet

0:27:430:27:45

was pretty much this...

0:27:450:27:46

It's not exactly homework.

0:27:460:27:48

It's the internet.

0:27:480:27:49

What?

0:27:490:27:50

Turn it off!

0:27:500:27:51

Turn it off!

0:27:510:27:52

I've heard about this internet,

it is a corrupting influence,

0:27:520:27:54

I saw a programme about it.

0:27:540:27:59

In the United States,

Congress passed the Communications

0:27:590:28:03

Decency Act in 1996 which,

as it name suggests,

0:28:030:28:06

was all about keeping this

new online world clean.

0:28:060:28:11

But the US Supreme Court struck down

most of its restrictions.

0:28:110:28:16

One clause, uncontroversial

at the time, Section 230, remained.

0:28:160:28:20

It says no provider or user

of an interactive computer service

0:28:200:28:27

shall be treated as the publisher

or speaker of any information

0:28:270:28:30

provided by another

information content provider.

0:28:300:28:31

This is unique.

0:28:310:28:35

No other jurisdiction in the world

has such a sweeping immunity

0:28:350:28:37

for online services.

0:28:370:28:42

The US is home to some

of the largest interactive computer

0:28:420:28:45

services in the world and I don't

think that's a coincidence.

0:28:450:28:49

Section 230 has played a very

active role in fostering

0:28:490:28:52

the growth of social media,

search engines, consumer review

0:28:520:28:56

sites, because there is sort of this

almost laissez faire attitude

0:28:560:29:01

towards user content

because of Section 230.

0:29:010:29:08

At the time, hardly anyone

understood the implications of 230.

0:29:080:29:12

It was actually just

an adaptation of a law that

0:29:120:29:15

protected book shop owners.

0:29:150:29:16

It was argued they could not be

expected to read every book

0:29:160:29:20

they stocked so it would be unfair

to prosecute them for

0:29:200:29:23

something written in one.

0:29:230:29:26

But in the case of books of course,

there are publishers

0:29:260:29:28

who can be sued and they,

therefore, act as gatekeepers.

0:29:280:29:32

What the framers of 230 completely

failed to appreciate is that

0:29:320:29:35

on the internet the barriers

to publication would disappear.

0:29:350:29:37

There would not only

be no gatekeepers,

0:29:370:29:39

there would be no gates.

0:29:390:29:44

Everything from eBay to Facebook

to Airbnb to Twitter

0:29:440:29:47

to TripAdvisor to Google,

they all rely on Section 230.

0:29:470:29:52

It is the ultimate backstop that

protects them from prosecution.

0:29:520:29:56

And it's the ultimate reason why,

seemingly, independent sovereign

0:29:560:30:00

countries like the UK cannot pass

laws on that than to rein

0:30:000:30:06

in the tech giants.

0:30:060:30:07

We can certainly try to do it.

0:30:070:30:10

I mean, Facebook and Twitter,

they have offices in London

0:30:100:30:13

providing services related

the provision of the Facebook

0:30:130:30:19

service and the Twitter service

so we can certainly put pressure

0:30:190:30:25

on these companies but ultimately,

were they to want to continue

0:30:250:30:29

to provide services and avoid UK

regulation, there is the potential

0:30:290:30:31

they could simply withdraw back

to the United States.

0:30:310:30:36

As if to demonstrate this

legislative weakness,

0:30:360:30:38

tomorrow a committee of MPs

will hold an evidence

0:30:380:30:40

session in Washington.

0:30:400:30:42

This is something that has

never been done before,

0:30:420:30:45

to have a live select committee

hearing in another country.

0:30:450:30:48

What it meant is because the tech

companies themselves

0:30:480:30:51

are headquartered in America,

it's giving us access to people

0:30:510:30:54

who are involved in the global

policy decisions these companies

0:30:540:30:56

make, not just the people

from the UK that represent them.

0:30:560:31:01

The committee is looking

specifically at fake news.

0:31:010:31:06

Like many of the big internet

problems we struggle with,

0:31:060:31:08

it has its origins in Section 230

which treats online companies

0:31:080:31:11

as platforms, not publishers.

0:31:110:31:14

The select committee chair says

regulatory reform is long overdue.

0:31:140:31:19

I think we need to come up

with a new definition

0:31:190:31:22

that is somewhat between a social

media company being a pure

0:31:220:31:25

publisher and simply

being a platform, to recognise

0:31:250:31:30

that they have a responsibility

to police and manage their platform

0:31:300:31:33

in a way that restricts

the harm that some users

0:31:330:31:36

can cause and create.

0:31:360:31:37

And I think it is our job to say,

to identify what we think the social

0:31:370:31:41

problems are that the social media

companies need to act against.

0:31:410:31:44

In the US, many politicians

are in a similar place

0:31:440:31:48

but the difference is that they can

be legislatively effected.

0:31:480:31:52

Do you acknowledge today

for the record that child sex

0:31:520:31:54

trafficking is a serious

problem on Backpage?

0:31:540:32:00

After consultation with counsel,

I decline to answer your question.

0:32:000:32:05

What has triggered the debate

there is the case of Backpage,

0:32:050:32:08

an online classified adverts site

that was found by a Senate

0:32:080:32:11

investigation to have knowingly run

ads for children who had been

0:32:110:32:14

trafficked for sex.

0:32:140:32:16

But the law apparently

couldn't touch Backpage

0:32:160:32:18

because of Section 230.

0:32:180:32:21

Legislation is currently going

through Congress to change that.

0:32:210:32:28

I think if we don't address this

issue with a targeted exception,

0:32:280:32:31

I think that Section 230 could be

in jeopardy down

0:32:310:32:33

the road altogether.

0:32:330:32:36

What I would rather see

is a targeted exception that

0:32:360:32:40

actually prevents sex trafficking,

and still preserves the enormous

0:32:400:32:48

free-speech and innovation that

Section 230 promotes,

0:32:480:32:52

and I think that is possible.

0:32:520:32:55

I think if we don't address this

issue, I would be very worried that

0:32:550:32:59

that could cause more sweeping

changes to Section 230 which I think

0:32:590:33:02

would be very dangerous.

0:33:020:33:07

But there is a worry that once

Section 230 is chipped away at,

0:33:070:33:10

it won't end there.

0:33:100:33:13

They might start with laws

to restrict sex trafficking,

0:33:130:33:16

but the politicians would soon come

back for more.

0:33:160:33:21

There is already an appetite

to restrict the right to publish

0:33:210:33:23

what is known as fake news.

0:33:230:33:26

People have the right

to speak their mind,

0:33:260:33:29

and no one can get into the business

of censoring opinion.

0:33:290:33:32

People can have wildly different

opinions on the same event

0:33:320:33:34

but as long as that event is true

and based on fact, that's fine.

0:33:340:33:37

I think we have to take a stand

where people are spreading harmful

0:33:370:33:41

content that is based on lies.

0:33:410:33:44

So the social media companies

are increasingly under pressure

0:33:440:33:46

to decide what is true

and what is false, what is legal

0:33:460:33:49

and what is illegal,

and the algorithms they will use

0:33:490:33:52

will, of necessity, be blunt,

sweeping and cautious.

0:33:520:33:56

If you think about the sheer volume

of content being uploaded

0:33:560:34:00

onto the internet on a daily basis,

it is just impossible for internet

0:34:000:34:04

providers to be able to effectively

decide what is illegal and legal

0:34:040:34:07

content, and I think

we are just going to end up

0:34:070:34:13

in a situation where jokes,

where perfectly legitimate content,

0:34:130:34:18

even controversial content

that we might find distasteful that

0:34:180:34:21

ought to be there as part of a free

and open internet,

0:34:210:34:24

is simply removed.

0:34:240:34:27

So the barriers to ordinary people

publishing might go up again

0:34:270:34:30

and the internet become more

like TV or newspapers

0:34:300:34:33

with one way communication.

0:34:330:34:37

It may be that we will see this

chaotic free for all of the last

0:34:370:34:40

couple of decades as a mere blip

in human history.

0:34:400:34:47

It's had brilliant reviews,

has a 100% score on Rotten Tomatoes,

0:34:510:34:54

and has been called the first

adult superhero movie.

0:34:540:34:57

And it's coming to a screen

near you next week.

0:34:570:34:59

The Black Panther.

0:34:590:35:01

We are home.

0:35:010:35:08

My son, it is your time.

0:35:080:35:11

# Show me my respect and bow down #.

0:35:110:35:16

You get to decide what kind of King

you are going to be.

0:35:160:35:23

Don't freeze.

0:35:230:35:25

I never freeze.

0:35:250:35:29

# The revolution will

not be televised #.

0:35:290:35:32

It is the first Marvel

comic film production

0:35:320:35:35

featuring a black superhero,

and the fact that is has been

0:35:350:35:43

well-executed at every level means

it has generated far more

0:35:440:35:47

than the usual excitement

of a new action movie release.

0:35:470:35:49

As one critic said, it's

a "story about black lives,

0:35:490:35:51

which matter and are not defined

by their pain but instead

0:35:510:35:54

by their glory".

0:35:540:35:55

Well, Evan Narcisse is the writer

of 'Rise of Black Panther'

0:35:550:35:58

for Marvel Comics and joins us

from Austin in Texas.

0:35:580:36:01

Film journalist Nola Ojomu

is with me in the studio.

0:36:010:36:04

Good evening to you, Evan, a lot of

people say this is a moment and do

0:36:040:36:10

you agree?

It is for sure a moment.

I want to correct a little bit,

0:36:100:36:21

technically Blade featuring Wesley

Snipes was a marvel superhero

0:36:210:36:28

Snipes was a marvel superhero movie,

but Black Panther, this is a moment

0:36:280:36:33

like I have never seen before in my

career. I am a pop culture critic as

0:36:330:36:38

well as writing comics and nothing

like this has ever happened, it is

0:36:380:36:43

utterly astounding, the excitement

around this movie.

A lot of this is

0:36:430:36:48

around a black movie not being about

victims, it is bigger than that.

0:36:480:36:53

Right. It's not about trauma, it's

not about economic

0:36:530:36:59

disenfranchisement, it's not about

the legacy of slavery or Jim Crowe

0:36:590:37:03

or any of that stuff. Don't get me

wrong, the Black Panther character

0:37:030:37:09

concept very much has to do with

colonialism and its effects but it

0:37:090:37:13

is shown in a way that is not

central to the conflict. This is

0:37:130:37:18

more about the preservation of

culture, a way of life, celebrating

0:37:180:37:22

black excellence and achievement and

making black characters on screen

0:37:220:37:29

for more complex in a fictional

sense than we've seen maybe ever.

0:37:290:37:38

Are you excited by it?

Very, very

excited.

Tried to put into words, I

0:37:380:37:46

am not an action hero sort of

person, what is it that makes this

0:37:460:37:49

so different? Moonlight won the best

locks rueda Oscar, a black theme

0:37:490:37:59

song, why is this important?

Because

it's going to be fun, it's a

0:37:590:38:05

superhero movie. Like Evan was

saying, it's not to do with Savary,

0:38:050:38:08

he's cool, he kicks butt, he has all

this technology, it is just fun.

0:38:080:38:16

Mike -- might I suggest you do not

want the black community to judge

0:38:160:38:25

their worst by the prestige

Hollywood restores them in their

0:38:250:38:28

movies because that would be a

terrible metric by which you would

0:38:280:38:33

the community, the Hollywood eyes

edition of its values.

It would be

0:38:330:38:39

horrible but this is not that, this

is a fictional country in Africa but

0:38:390:38:45

it is Africa, it is Africans being

shown as strong and smart and clever

0:38:450:38:49

and there is not enough of that in

mainstream media and that is what is

0:38:490:38:53

exciting. These guys are cool and

strong,

0:38:530:38:59

strong, they are lit, as the hashtag

says.

Black Panther goes back to

0:38:590:39:05

1966, a black superhero in comic

form back in the 1960s, why did it

0:39:050:39:09

take so long for this movie to come

out?

I think there are a lot of

0:39:090:39:16

perceptions in Hollywood's and

beyond, people who fund movies that

0:39:160:39:22

a black lead piece like this would

not perform internationally,

0:39:220:39:28

globally. That it would not do the

kind of business that these

0:39:280:39:31

blockbuster movies need to do in

order to justify their existence so

0:39:310:39:34

I think there is a lot of that.

There is also, the talent pull in

0:39:340:39:41

Hollywood, the decision makers to

sign off on these still think the

0:39:410:39:44

very white. There are not a lot of

producers who have the pull to make

0:39:440:39:51

something like cabin. The gentleman

at Marvel who made this happen is

0:39:510:39:59

black. He is a relative minority in

terms of numbers in Hollywood. This

0:39:590:40:05

was clearly a passion project for

him.

I suppose, we don't have this

0:40:050:40:14

conversation, when its normalised

and see more of these kind of films,

0:40:140:40:17

probably not quite as black theme

does this, this was almost entirely

0:40:170:40:21

black crew and cast, you would not

have to be so racially segmented,

0:40:210:40:26

but is that which you would like to

see?

I feel this is the start of

0:40:260:40:30

where things are going. Again, like

Evan said, we had Blade and then

0:40:300:40:36

there has been such a long gap. I

think this is going to do well and

0:40:360:40:41

it will inspire so many new script

and stories.

And show black

0:40:410:40:47

characters can sell movies.

Yes,

they can make money and the old

0:40:470:40:50

Hollywood fears are not correct.

Thank you both very much.

0:40:500:40:56

That's nearly it for tonight.

0:40:560:40:57

Kirsty will be here tomorrow.

0:40:570:40:58

But before we go, it's

the centenary of the death

0:40:580:41:01

of the Austrian symbolist painter,

Gustav Klimt.

0:41:010:41:02

To mark the occasion,

virtual reality artist

0:41:020:41:04

Frederick Baker has teamed up

with Vienna's Museum of Applied Arts

0:41:040:41:07

to take you on an interactive

journey through Klimt's work.

0:41:070:41:09

The exhibition opens today so we

leave you with a little taster.

0:41:090:41:12

Good night.

0:41:120:41:20

Evan Davis with the latest on Brexit and an interview with the daughter of a kidnapped Chinese bookseller. Plus internet reform, and what is the significance of new superhero film Black Panther?


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