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Hello and welcome to Newswatch with me, Samira Ahmed. | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
Coming up, news presenters featured prominently in the BBC's list | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
This week, are they really worth the money? | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
And how will the BBC deal with the gap in pay revealed | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
Wednesday was a difficult day for the BBC, as ordered by | :00:23. | :00:35. | |
the Government against its wishes, the corporation published | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
the names and salary bands of all its on-air employees paid | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
This led to some uncomfortable interviews with those unused | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
to being on the receiving end of questions. | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
On paper, absolutely nothing that justifies that huge amount of money | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
if you compare with me with lots of other people. | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
I have never doubted how lucky I am to work in there. | :00:58. | :01:07. | |
I think the BBC is really hurting today. | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
John Humphrys and Jeremy Vine, the two leading news | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
presenters on the list, earning over ?600,000 | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
They were followed by the likes of Huw Edwards, | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
on more than ?550,000, Andrew Marr, earning over ?400,000, Fiona Bruce, | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
with more than ?350,000, and Laura Kuenssberg on over | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
?200,000, who was in the same range as Andrew Neil, | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
Many BBC outlets indulged in what some viewers felt | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
was washing their dirty linen in public, including Breakfast, | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
with a surreally self-referential paper review | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
Naga Munchetty and not on the list Charlie Stayt. | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
It's not every day the BBC Breakfast sofa makes | :01:58. | :01:59. | |
the front page of the Sun, but there we go. | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
And many of the papers, as Naga said, are looking at some | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
of the detail and some of the discrepancies highlighted. | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
The Daily Mail say mutiny - bitter recriminations | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
of the politically correct BBC as this gulf between men | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
So that's us on Newswatch broadcast during breakfast, | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
showing a clip of Breakfast, featuring a newspaper front | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
Apologies for adding to the self-absorption, | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
which on Wednesday prompted this from Rowena Kay. | :02:30. | :02:44. | |
And another Twitter user called Jerome thought: | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
between men's and women's earnings revealed by the list | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
was being pored over to access, with Helen Blamires asking: | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
Well, Amol Rajan has been reporting on this story all week at the BBC's | :02:57. | :03:14. | |
Maybe I have a certain advantage in that I have not | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
been here that long, so I haven't become best friends | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
with some of the people I was reporting on. | :03:26. | :03:27. | |
I knew I was talking about people like Huw Edwards | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
You come across lots of awkward in situations in journalism. | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
You think, how would I cover this if it wasn't the BBC | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
and I was somewhere else, and you do it | :03:40. | :03:41. | |
You have come from newspapers like the Independent. | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
Has it affected how you view the row over BBC pay? | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
I don't think it has affected how I reviewed the row. | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
I approach this as a hack, not as a company man. | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
It is fantastically gossipy and exciting detail, | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
and this is a list of names and I find it fascinating. | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
As an old-fashioned hack, I think this is, I would not say | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
A lot of viewers said there was too much | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
the media talking about itself to itself at the expense of other news. | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
I don't think it was self-flagellating. | :04:18. | :04:18. | |
If you are the BBC, you have to cover yourself in a way that | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
I had two interviews with Tony Hall on the News at Ten, | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
There was no way I was going to let the director-general get on the News | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
So when I was editing the packages, I'd make sure that we were seen | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
to be giving him a hard time, but I don't think | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
There is an important story here, which is how public money is spent. | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
There is a question of whether we did too much, | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
which is complicated because it is to do with what else | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
is on the news agenda, but I think we got it about right. | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
There is also an accusation from some viewers that news coverage | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
actually focused too much on the gender gap to distract | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
Were you under any pressure to report the story any way? | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
I can tell you hand on heart that no one tried... | :05:09. | :05:29. | |
Having been a kind of media adviser and having thought | :05:30. | :05:31. | |
about comms in a previous job and having gone through some | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
difficult things in my journalistic career like shutting a newspaper, | :05:37. | :05:38. | |
I was thinking to myself, what is the is the line the BBC | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
I am conscious that they feel they have a decent story to tell | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
If you find out at base that Chris Evans is paid ?2.2 million, that is | :05:47. | :06:02. | |
a big number. Not just gender but other issues revealed, like | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
diversity and class. Many of those who contacted | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
Newswatch expressed their dismay and disgust about the levels | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
of salary if you are finding out that Chris Evans | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
is paid ?2.2 million, Many of those who contacted | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
Newswatch expressed their dismay And there was also concern | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
about the gender disparities in pay, with the top seven on the list | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
all men and on the issue of race, John Rick Warren had a similar | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
are paid partly according one might assume that people are paid partly | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
according to show is presented. One might assume that people | :06:37. | :07:00. | |
are paid partly according For instance, John Humphrys | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
and Jeremy Vine by present TV quiz shows, which contribute | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
to their wage bills, are how replaceable each | :07:07. | :07:15. | |
person is and how much That cuts no ice with | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
David Goodchild, who told us: The BBC's director-general Lord Hall | :07:19. | :07:29. | |
responded to all these points in an interview | :07:30. | :07:40. | |
he gave on Wednesday. He said the gender pay gap was lower | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
at the BBC than it was nationally, and pledged equal pay on the air | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
between men by 2020. He pointed to the increased | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
competition to the BBC not just domestically, | :07:50. | :07:58. | |
but from companeis such as Apple and Amazon, | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
and he said We are constantly working | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
at ensuring that we get the balance right between our public, | :08:06. | :08:24. | |
who want to have great shows presented by stars and great | :08:25. | :08:26. | |
presenters, and them also wanting to know that their money, | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
and it's their money, public money, Well, Mark Damazer worked | :08:30. | :08:31. | |
at the BBC for many years, including as Deputy Director of BBC | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
News, and he was later a BBC trustee and is now master | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
of St Peter's College Oxford. You used to be management and make | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
these kind of pay decisions. Were you surprised by | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
the numbers revealed? I thought there would be a gender | :08:48. | :08:49. | |
gap, but it was considerably more embarrassing and bigger | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
than I had anticipated. Some of the individual figures, | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
of course, caused some surprise. Not necessarily new, | :08:56. | :08:57. | |
sometimes outside. I can see entirely from the point | :08:58. | :08:59. | |
of view from an average licence payer that they would have | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
looked, on average, high. But in terms of negotiating | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
these one by one, no, Because several viewers have | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
described some of these salaries as obscene, | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
and they are eye-watering, Well, it's a truth and it's not | :09:12. | :09:12. | |
necessarily a happy truth that the way people get paid | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
across the economy is not a reflection of moral virtue | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
or moral value. It would be hard to say that a nurse | :09:20. | :09:21. | |
or a police woman or a fire officer isn't worth more by way of moral | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
value than they stand You have to take that | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
to one side and look And once you get to that and strip | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
out the notion that these people are intrinsically more | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
virtuous, then the figures People still thinking the BBC | :09:38. | :09:38. | |
is a public organisation and, in the end, there is no | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
justification for a newsreader to be The problem with that is, if other | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
people are paying a great deal more, I'm afraid the BBC has to operate | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
by trying to get the best talent that they can for a price | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
that is always likely to be discounted to what | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
everybody else is paying. But it has to be reasonable enough | :09:58. | :09:58. | |
to get people into those jobs, And it isn't always happy and this | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
is difficult and embarrassing, but I think the BBC is right | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
to have a policy that says - we need talent and we're | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
going to have to pay. A lot of viewers and a lot | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
of BBC staff, women, people from minority backgrounds, | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
have been quite pleased to see these Transparency's quite | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
revealing, isn't it? Yeah, so I was on the BBC Trust | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
for a couple of years and I was not an enthusiast for this, | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
I was perfectly happy about bands in which you could locate | :10:27. | :10:28. | |
the numbers of people but not I was absolutely, and am | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
happy, that the gender That's not the same | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
as individual salaries Although I think that some good, | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
because of the pressure that will now be on the BBC management | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
has come out of this, because the gender gap | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
will have to be sorted. I think it will be | :10:50. | :10:51. | |
extremely difficult. In some cases, I think, | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
it is likely to lead to inflation. I don't think that Tony Hall can | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
admit to that, but it's going to be very hard to do this if you don't | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
inflate some people's salaries, And that may not be good | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
for the BBC's total pay bill and it may not be good for people worrying | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
about overpayment in general, if they think everybody's | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
being paid too much, but I think women are going to have | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
to be paid more, on average. One of the things that's likely | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
to happen over a period of time is that some of the better paid men, | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
not that I wish ill on any of them, but some of the better paid men | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
may leave and it may be they will be replaced by other, | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
dare I say it, cheaper men or women. That will, in some way, | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
compress the gap between But I think the BBC | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
can't go on like this, even if it is true that the BBC, | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
and I think it almost certainly is true, that the BBC's record | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
is more defensible than most, if not all other broadcasters | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
and many other big corporations Thank you very much. | :11:50. | :11:51. | |
Pleasure. Thank you for all your | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
comments this week. We're off the air for a few weeks | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
now over the summer, but do please still share your opinions on BBC | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
news and current affairs by calling You can find us on twitter, | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
@NewswatchBBC, and do have a look We'll be back to hear your thoughts | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
about BBC news coverage | :12:11. | :12:20. |