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For the first time ever on this show, we'll be broadcasting | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
live, right across Ireland - teaming up with RTE's Prime Time | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
programme to debate the big talking points and hear views from packed | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
Hello there. Welcome to the show. An extended programme. | :00:14. | :01:01. | |
Later we'll be hearing what our audiences in Dublin and Belfast | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
have to say about some of the political and social issues | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
Are we poles apart or is there much common ground beyond the border? | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
To help us gauge if the politicians are in step with the | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
popular feelings on these issues, the BBC and RTE have commissioned | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
a cross-border survey asking about the issues that matter to you. | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
Some of those results are a real eye-opener. | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
We will use them to inform the discussion tonight. Should be | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
interesting. Lead is head over to Miriam O'Callaghan at RTE. -- let | :01:35. | :01:43. | |
us. We are now live on | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
BBC Northern Ireland and on RTE, with Miriam O'Callaghan | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
in the Prime Time studio in Dublin. It is a pleasure to be linking up in | :01:50. | :02:03. | |
this unique collaboration. We will hear from contributors north and | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
south of the border as well as revealing results of our specially | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
commissioned cross-border survey. Let us get stuck in. | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
Let's have a look at who we've got with us here in Belfast tonight. | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
The DUP's Arlene Foster, Northern Ireland's Finance Minister. | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
Claire Hanna from the SDLP and the Alliance Party's David Ford, | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
Sinn Fein will be joining the panel in Dublin. | :02:24. | :02:33. | |
And, of course, we've got a studio full of folk who have plenty to | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
We will start off with you. Conor? I was hoping to find out what | :02:37. | :02:48. | |
percentage of people north and south would be in favour or against a | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
united Ireland? It would be interesting. You are about to see | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
that and a lot more. Alex Kane, what do you think will be surprising? | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
What are you hoping to establish? For the past ten years there has | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
been censored Northern Ireland politicians in the Assembly are | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
distant from the electorate so it will be interesting to see, | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
particularly on the social and ethical issues, if they are out of | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
step and then it comes to same-sex marriage and so one, you will find a | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
comfortable majority in Northern Ireland are far more liberal than | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
the politicians believe. We are about to find out. Miriam? I will go | :03:34. | :03:42. | |
to the audience. Ian Morgan, what are you expecting? What is your | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
view? I feel very passionately about the reunification of the country, I | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
was brought up in the border area of North Monaghan and had a profound | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
affect on my youth and the community and we had effectively a Berlin Wall | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
from 1972 until the Good Friday Agreement with neighbours torn apart | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
and we have the British Army coming into the community and the trenches, | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
basically, that split the half and May one recollections were playing | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
in these trenches, they were like the moon but the old record I | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
realised this was petition in my own community. Thank you for that. | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
Hannah O'Sullivan, you order number of Fine Gael? My personal view is | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
that I feel that Northern Ireland should be an independent state and | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
not part of any other territorial. I feel that if Northern Ireland | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
continues to become part of the UK, there will be issues and if it | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
becomes part of a united Ireland, there will be issues. I lived in | :04:53. | :05:01. | |
London from the mid-19 70s until the 1990s and I sort of felt what it was | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
like to be an Irish person with an Irish accent, leading through the | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
Troubles in Northern Ireland... OK, thank you. I will introduce you to | :05:12. | :05:20. | |
the panel, Jimmy Dylan Hunt, Brandon Smith, from Fianna Fail. Pearson | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
Bertie from Sinn Fein. Pat Rabbitte from the Labour Party. Jimmy | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
Ferriter, professor of Irish history at UCD. And Susan McKay, author and | :05:32. | :05:42. | |
journalist. As we said, we had a survey to get an idea of how people | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
feel, it was conducted by behaviour and attitudes for RTE and BBC | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
Northern Ireland over done two weeks last month. You would remember this | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
was during the weeks of instability at Stormont. Just over 2000 days to | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
face interviews were conducted and 1029 in the Republic and an thousand | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
and 12 in Northern Ireland with a margin of error of 3%. Let us start | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
with the results. We asked how people felt Northern Ireland should | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
be governed in the short to medium term... | :06:17. | :06:28. | |
35% wanted the current situation to the name. Slightly more of people | :06:29. | :06:37. | |
said they would like to see Northern Ireland unified with the site. Some | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
people said, I don't know or they clicked other. One interesting point | :06:44. | :06:52. | |
is, more people in the Republic favour an arrangement that involves | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
Northern Ireland remaining in the UK. | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
The same question in Northern Ireland got a bigger proportion | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
in favour of remaining part of the UK when you add those two options. | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
Only 13% of those surveyed wanted Northern | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
Ireland to unify with the Republic in the short to medium term. | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
If we drill down into the Northern Ireland figures, the results paint | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
As you might expect, there's more support for a united | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
Ireland among people who describe themselves as Catholic or brought up | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
But what's interesting is that by adding those two first options - | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
devolution and direct rule - we see that just over half of | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
Catholics surveyed chose UK options in the short to medium term. | :07:39. | :07:47. | |
While almost half of protestants, 49%, want a devolved government, 30% | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
want Northern Ireland to be governed by direct rule from Westminster. | :07:52. | :08:01. | |
Among Protestants and people brought up in a Protestant background that | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
we surveyed, look how low the level of support for a United Ireland is. | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
We also ask people if they would like to see a united Ireland in | :08:08. | :08:17. | |
their own lifetime and there is a dramatic change. | :08:18. | :08:27. | |
That is much higher than the 36% in the short to medium-term. In | :08:28. | :08:39. | |
Northern Ireland... Again, much higher than the 13% in the short to | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
medium term. And look at the don't know... Both North and South. The | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
percentage undecided is significant. In terms of Northern Ireland, | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
there is no big surprise 57% of Catholics want a united | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
Ireland in their lifetime compared We thought we would ask all | :08:57. | :09:12. | |
attention is what they make of the findings. Pearse Doherty, I need to | :09:13. | :09:21. | |
put this to you, North or South, if a majority of people want to see a | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
united Ireland in the short to medium term, what was the campaign | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
all about? medium term, what was the campaign | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
all about? If you look at the figures, people must determine what | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
short-termist is an very few people would want a united Ireland in the | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
short-term because of that any discussion or any talk between all | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
the sections of society, it would create instability and problems. | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
When you look at the long-term figures, it is very positive, when | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
you exclude don't know, for the 1% in the North want a united Ireland | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
in their own lifetime as opposed to 59% that tonight and in the south, a | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
majority wants a united Ireland in their own lifetime. But you must | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
accept, are you not surprised that a majority of Catholics in the short | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
to medium-term in Northern Ireland don't want a united Ireland? No, | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
what I am not surprised about at this stage, that is not the | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
question, any short-term, do they want to see that without that | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
transition and plan in terms of what I united Ireland would look like? | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
What type of constitution or structures... They want to remain | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
part of the UK. The question you're asking is not that Sinn Fein is | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
presenting in terms of having a united Ireland joining the six | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
counties with the 26 counties, what we were involved in is a new Ireland | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
that is inclusive and that will happen with dialogue between all | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
individuals and that is why we can see the figures dramatically | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
changing... The figures in Northern Ireland, only a small majority, 57%, | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
of Catholics want a united Ireland in their lifetime so how could you | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
ever go about us winning the Protestant population that they | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
would want that? Since you only have a very small majority in the | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
Catholic opposition? I don't like talking in relation to religion and | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
when you look at the population of the North, when you exclude don't | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
know, for the 1% at this point in time want to see a united Ireland in | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
their lifetime and I compare that to the Scottish referendum and the | :11:33. | :11:40. | |
Scottish voted, for the 5% for independence, one year before the | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
debate, 13 opinion polls show that support was less than 30%, we want | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
debate, there is no debate at this point, what would happen if we got | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
rid of back-to-back services and the dynamics of the economy? Arlene | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
Foster is in the Nolan Live studio. What do you make of what Pearse | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
Doherty was saying? All the wrong questions were asked and we should | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
exclude don't know? For me, this is a very positive opinion poll, it | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
shows that the union is secure and people are comfortable within the | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
union in Northern Ireland and I think that we should remember this, | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
this has been taken at a time when devolution has been going through | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
some difficult months and can you imagine what the result would have | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
been evolution was working properly? I would not get too smug. While the | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
majority of Catholics might be happy in the UK, remember, this is just | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
one survey, they are not voting for you in the election? They are not | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
voting for unionist parties and maybe that is because you are | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
banging on about flags every day and night and identity and not about the | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
real-life issues that actually matter to people in this country? | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
That is why that survey should be worrying. It is very reassuring for | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
me. They will not vote for you. It is you that banks on a lot about | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
flags and emblems, if you want me to talk about economic holiday... I | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
have said this on a number of locations bus stop be graduated | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
response was a long time ago. If you want me to talk about economics and | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
education, I am happy to. Everyone is. It is a legitimate question, why | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
are Catholics reluctant, according to the survey, we know that | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
Catholics are happy to remain in the UK but we only reluctant to vote for | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
parties like yours? That is a challenge from a party and a | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
challenge for other parties. Traditionally, they have voted for | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
nationalists parties because they identify with nationalist parties in | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
recent perhaps Catholic issues and abortion and same-sex marriage and | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
we're going to talk about that later on. What are you doing wrong? How | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
can you reach out to those people? Were not doing much wrong when the | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
poll tells you that the majority of people living in Northern Ireland | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
are happy to be part of the UK. That is very good poll for unionists so | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
don't try to turn this around as a negative for unionism. More reaction | :14:19. | :14:29. | |
in Dublin. What hope do we have of united Ireland when people say that | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
unionists should go back to Britain? Firstly, it will be decided in | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
Northern Ireland and when you look back at the Good Friday Agreement, | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
it was clearly stated that Google only have a united Ireland if we | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
have a majority of people in Northern Ireland deciding on that so | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
when you look at the result of this survey, it does state clearly that | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
what the people in Northern Ireland want at this moment in time, both | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
nationalists and unionists, and that is devolution and that is when the | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
talks at the moment are so important and that is why it is so important | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
to implement fully the Good Friday Agreement and also why the storm and | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
high stocks are so important at this moment. Does this show that at the | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
end of the day, all the people who said the petition back when would | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
become the defect to reality and it would be impossible to enter this? | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
This survey indicates that is what we are looking at? It is not short | :15:29. | :15:37. | |
and medium-term. That is what we have two address. We have two | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
progress in ways we can share this island between us. There are signs | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
in Northern Ireland in the relationship between North and South | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
which is healthy at the moment. And it is proven to be economically | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
viable. There is tourism and the relationship is very good. I think | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
it gives us a clear message that this survey, I welcome it, | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
devolution is now what is wanted in Northern Ireland in this moment in | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
time and me -- we must work it. It is an indication a majority of | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
people north and south in the source -- short to medium term do not want | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
it and you seem to be aiming for an ideal that the people in the short | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
to medium term are out of touch. We have always had a founding value | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
where we continue to work in that respect and I think we need to make | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
the border irrelevant. We have the wherewithal with the workings of the | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
Good Friday Agreement, St Andrews and the Gwent agreements to have | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
greater economic Corporation in North and South. We have the | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
opportunity to grow the economy in the north and south. We have not | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
maximised the potential of the Good Friday Agreement. Politically, it is | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
relatively recently that we have been given the mechanism that should | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
the people in the north and South decide on a united Ireland, that | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
mechanism is there because we changed the constitution. In the | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
agreement that was overwhelmingly approved by the electorate north and | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
south in May, 1998, by more than 94% of the people that voted, more than | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
70% in the North. We have been given the mechanism that if the people | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
decide they want a united Ireland, that provision is in our | :17:27. | :17:28. | |
Constitution. Let's leave it there for the moment. That replaced the | :17:29. | :17:36. | |
1920 and 21 agreements. We are going to leave it there and go back to | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
Stephen Nolan. He is going to talk to his audience. Let's see what we | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
think already. Go ahead. So far, what has happened is all this survey | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
has highlighted is that it is time for a debate. It is on a united | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
Ireland. To square the circle, cover social issues, how are you going to | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
pay for it, run the country? I've heard Pearse Doherty here. Talking | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
about why that vote was not great is there has not really been a | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
discussion about it in the short and medium term. What is Sinn Fein doing | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
every day our peer? Why are they not talking about it every day of the | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
week? Of course they are. It is not reaching the people. All that survey | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
has pointed out is most people will air on the side of caution. Better | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
the devil you know than the devil you do not. If you put all your | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
cards on the table and show everybody, north and south, I am | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
sure there are people in Cork that wants to know how much it is going | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
to cost. It is pretty much the same way as the hard done south regarding | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
the bailout and bringing it back and labelled regrowing the economy. We | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
will look at taxes and how that influences and influenced people in | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
the survey on that question later. Stay with us for that. Yes, go | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
ahead. That is you, go ahead. I think we are hearing the same tired | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
question. What would have been interesting if we had a scenario, if | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
the UK leads the European Union, does that make a united Ireland | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
nearer or further away? That could be a fairly important reason for | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
people in Northern Ireland voting either for leaving the European | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
Union or actually voting against it. For me personally, if we leave the | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
European Union, it would affect my bus cars, train pass. We do not | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
know. These are big issues not even being thought about. We have got the | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
same tired questions. Do the people in the South think it would be | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
better for the UK to be in the European Union? So that they can | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
share the services that they already share in Europe? Man in the white | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
shirt. We should accept that the question is settled and get away | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
from these issues and move to green issues. What question is settled? | :20:09. | :20:17. | |
The survey made it very clear... In the UK for ever more. I you serious? | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
Sinn Fein cannot have a political position and argue for it? We can | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
argue for it but we should accept that the question is settled. Move | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
on for how long? Move on to the issue that matters. I am stating the | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
patiently obvious, a united Ireland is their political objective. You | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
are saying move on! Focus on lives. Look at the waiting lists, the gay | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
blood and, these people affect us as opposed to ideology. I want Northern | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
Ireland issues to be debated in stead of this session again and | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
again, it is silly. This is just a survey. It is not saying what every | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
single person in Ireland and Northern Ireland things. It is a | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
statistically robust survey. Miriam, you have some results. I will pick | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
up with my audience. That gentleman there are saying we need to move on, | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
what do you think, Annie? I think we need to work in the area that has | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
been sketched out by the Good Friday Agreement. Which is about increasing | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
cooperation and friendship between the people north and south. That is | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
a big enough task for our generation. A united Ireland is a | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
nice aspiration. Are the people of the Republic prepared to make | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
sacrifices in terms of taxation, finance, social harmony, to bring | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
900,000 Northern Unionists into a united state? I have my doubts. | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
Let's try without forcing anybody to a particular destination, try and | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
become better friends, north and south, on the basis of that we can | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
talk about constitutional future later. We are actually going to ask | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
questions about taxation. What have you heard so far? Do we need to move | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
on? Has this survey surprised you so far? I think this supreme irony of | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
the discussion that we are having in my opinion is that the culture of | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
the unionist population would be better served under a Dublin | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
government than would be served under... How do you say that? It is | :22:34. | :22:41. | |
down to population. The unionist population would be just shy of 20% | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
of the population of this island. They currently make up 1% of the UK. | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
Unionist MPs in Westminster do not have a voice and are not listened | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
to. If they were in the door, they would be properly in a coalition | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
government... I think a lot would disagree with you. OK, we are going | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
to give you more salt. We asked another question, just to try and | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
test how strong support for a united Ireland in the long-term is. First, | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
a reminder. In the Republic, 66% said they favoured a united Ireland | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
in their lifetime. If it went paying less tax, support increased to 73%. | :23:22. | :23:30. | |
If there were to be no change in the level of tax, 63% would be in | :23:31. | :23:38. | |
favour. But if a united Ireland meant people in the Republic had to | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
pay more tax, supporting the survey. Magically to 31%. | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
30% favoured a united Ireland in their lifetime. But if it meant | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
paying less tax, support from respondents in Northern Ireland is | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
flat in the margin of error. If they were to be no change in the level of | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
tax, 22% would be in favour. Look at this. If a united Ireland meant | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
people in Northern Ireland had to pay more tax, support again falls | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
dramatically, 11%. Pearse Doherty, even for people in | :24:17. | :24:28. | |
their own lifetime wanting a united Ireland, they are not willing to pay | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
money for that. I believe in a united Ireland in my heart and my | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
head. I think it will make a stronger economy. It is not what I | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
asked. That issue does not arise in my view. What we will have is the | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
synergy of 6.4 million people on the island. We will get rid of two | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
currencies and exchange rates and employment laws and have a stronger | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
economy has a result. You will not need more tax. Two have services, | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
two transport systems, you would have more efficiencies... We can | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
argue all night about whether that will happen. People have a fear and | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
would see they might have to pay more money if there was to be a | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
united Ireland. This survey indicates they would not pick that | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
option. People do not like to pay more tax. That is understandable. | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
That is the point I am making. We need to have a real debate. That is | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
why Sinn Fein had called for a Green paper on Irish unity. What do people | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
that share the aspirations want to do to stop that discussion? How | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
would we plan? What type of structure and rights would we have | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
so everybody had a inclusive society? What constitution, | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
parliament? These questions need to be asked and they were addressed in | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
Scotland and Catalonia. You see a surge of people that move in the | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
direction of independence, or unity, in my view in the Irish Republic. I | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
think you are going to come in now, Stephen. You are asking questions | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
and I am looking for answers. Here is the big sell, Christmas has come | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
early, I will give you one minute, sell it to me. Why would a united | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
island that everybody watching across this island, sell it in terms | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
of the numbing benefits, go! We would get rid of two currencies, | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
exchange rates. How much would we say? You build the economy and if | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
you look at the last European country that reunified in terms of | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
Germany, the GDP of East and West increased when it was reunified. You | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
will get rid of that. How much would you say? Are their numbers behind | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
this? No doubt you have thought it through, sell this denied. It would | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
benefit us economic lead by how much? There are no numbers? What do | :26:52. | :26:59. | |
you mean? ! The British Exchequer would release the numbers in | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
terms... Also in terms of the income that was raised, been others are not | :27:04. | :27:12. | |
accurate... Let her speak to you. It is ?9.8 billion, we receive in one | :27:13. | :27:20. | |
year. He is asking us to leave an economy of 60 million people and go | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
into an economy of 6.4 million and that will somehow make it a sense | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
for the people of Northern Ireland. I hope you are not spinning me and | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
that this is accurate! Encase people did not get that, you are we get 9.8 | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
billion over and above. That is the difference between the taxes... That | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
the figures from her Majesty 's Treasury. They are available. I was | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
going to say 10 billion. I will not fight for 9.8. Does Sinn Fein accept | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
these figures? Let me tell her what the figures are, 17.7 billion euros, | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
the Treasury claims is spent on the north and the British Treasury in | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
their own report in 2012 claims the income from the North is 14.1 | :28:12. | :28:21. | |
Stirling. What is missing in that... Can I ask you a question, Jimmy? Is | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
it your position, we have not spoken before, good evening, Jimmy, is it | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
the position of the Irish government for a united Ireland at this moment | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
in time in the current economic climate? That is hypothetical, | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
obviously. It is a big question. Do not give me hypothetical! Can the | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
Irish government afford a united Ireland at this moment in time # yes | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
or no? No, really. CROWD CHEERS... There is nothing | :28:51. | :29:10. | |
hypothetical about it? You cannot afford a united Ireland. How short | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
are you? Couple of quid, couple of million, couple of Ilion? When you | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
look at something like tourism has an example of how a body can foster | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
creativity, you will see it is very successful... How far away from | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
affordability are we? Not how much tourism is costing. Are we light | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
years away? Is it high in the sky, or close? There are two aspects. | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
Affordability and with the economy going, we could arrive but it would | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
be a long journey but we could arrive there. Then there is | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
consent. Without majority consent in Northern Ireland, it will not | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
happen. The feedback that I am getting and it is obvious, it will | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
not be forthcoming from the Nationalists, or Unionists for a | :30:05. | :30:11. | |
long time. Can we really not afford a united Ireland? Is that it? Yes, | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
we can afford it if people are prepared to pay an additional two US | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
sees, universal social charge brings in about 4 billion. Two of them | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
would manage for one year to pay the cheque from her Majesty's | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
government. But you do not have a normal functioning economy in | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
Northern Ireland. We have a public sector employment economy. You do | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
not have a wealth creating sector that is adequate to make a | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
contribution retaining services at the level to which people in | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
Northern Ireland have become accustomed. | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
People in the Republic of gone three years of an and perhaps it is based | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
on time and at another time, people might be willing to pay more tax and | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
maybe pay an additional amount for the dream of a united Ireland? I | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
think the Irish people, some of us and it is reflected in poetry and | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
literature, they are dreamers, but generally, people are concerned | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
about the tax they must pay and even people who are not so young, when | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
asked about, in my lifetime, they will tend to say with their heart, | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
yes, I would like to see a united Ireland. When it comes down to the | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
dignity of paying for this, that is a separate issue. The aspiration to | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
unity is enshrined in the Belfast agreement and this is not a debate | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
that we need, it is cooperation, when YouTube killed on that | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
agreement and deal with issues like agriculture and energy and health. | :31:59. | :32:08. | |
With Synergy... I will stay talking to you for the moment, I am handing | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
back to Stephen. He will stick with his panel and audience. I will be | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
back so do not go away. I am enjoying this! We will be back with | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
Miriam later on to hear from the Dublin audience about the topical | :32:23. | :32:36. | |
issues. Right... Mark Devenport is here. The Irish government has said | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
on live television that they cannot afford a united Ireland? Whenever I | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
say or the panel, this programme will be remembered as the no, really | :32:48. | :32:57. | |
answer, he did not take refuge in being hypothetical, in days gone by, | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
people would not say that, he has just done that. What is the | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
implication? It spells out what a lot of people already know, the | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
reason those figures for the short to medium term, people aspiring to | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
that, it is so much less than longer term aspiration, people are | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
concerned about any change to the status quo, in terms of political | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
damage and security and economic league and that is concerning on | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
both sides of the border. What else do you pick up from that poll? We | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
can look at some of these figures. The attitudes towards a united | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
Ireland. We have a different attitudes. Catholics and | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
Protestants, devolution, picking up as the most popular option on both | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
sides. Quite strong support for direct rule within the Protestant | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
community but we must remember that the timing of this was whenever | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
devolution was at a very low point with rolling resignations so that | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
perhaps explains that sense of disillusionment. And on the Catholic | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
side, if you are together those figures, it is slightly surprising | :34:12. | :34:13. | |
that you have majority support for UK options. Doug Beattie, your party | :34:14. | :34:21. | |
might be responsible for that direct rule statistic? You're messing | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
around, you walked out? Destabilising the Executive and look | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
at that? I would completely disagree. We made a very so sink | :34:32. | :34:41. | |
decision based on a murder and a dysfunctional Executive and we | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
walked out and that was it. The Executive carried on, the ministry | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
post was still there, the Executive would have carried on and the Ulster | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
unionist Party... You're not worried about that direct rule finding? 30%, | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
look at that, in the Protestant background said direct rule? That | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
does not concern you? Of course it does, our party once devolution, we | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
set up those institutions, we nearly spent ourselves to get devolution so | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
of course that concerns us but we have said this again and again, this | :35:18. | :35:27. | |
was taken in the middle of an in out post. We did not jump back in, | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
somebody else could have filled that post. David Ford, any reactions? It | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
is not surprising that the wrist wrong support for the religion north | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
and south, Catholic and Protestant, because in 1998 what we got in the | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
Good Friday Agreement and Arlene Foster might want to refine this | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
with St Andrews but what we have got is recognition of the three sets of | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
relationships, partnership in Northern Ireland, north, south and | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
east, west. That is the only copper mines which will ever get broad | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
acceptance in the future and it is quite clear that is accepted by | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
representatives in Dublin and also by the clear majority of the people. | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
Claire Hanna, your party once a united Ireland. Is this survey a | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
kick in the teeth? Our party does believe that a united Ireland would | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
be greater than the sum of its parts but people had every right to ask | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
that improve their lives. Look at how people are thinking. I would | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
agree, there is much more that needs to be done to show how services can | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
work. But ultimately, and our primary project, is to make Northern | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
Ireland work as nationalists should not be afraid of that. Do you know | :36:47. | :36:54. | |
what? It is close to December, I am fat enough to be Santa Claus. Here | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
is a Christmas present. You have a prominent Orangemen, Mervyn Gibson, | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
cell a united Ireland to him. He is entitled to ask. Tell him. Sell it! | :37:07. | :37:13. | |
Services, if you have a hospital in all the gelding or Daisy Lowe, that | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
catchment area is wider, but we are right to design services as a new | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
project and you are right to ask... You are selling. Fewer hospitals? | :37:24. | :37:32. | |
Nationalism is not chest beating and music, it is about a new project. | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
This is a big cell? I will ask again... Selby top three benefits to | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
a united Ireland because the people surveyed here are not getting that. | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
What is your first eight point? This is a small island, it does not make | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
sense to have two sets of everything. People will get improved | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
services. What are they? What I am selling right now... If I walk into | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
a car showroom and people say, look at this car, it is beautiful, look | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
at those seats, leather, lovely, it costs this. Give me that they'd take | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
it seal. What is the number one thing that will make people think, | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
my life has been transformed. Nationalists are not afraid to say | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
that at the moment we are selling making Northern Ireland work. You | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
cannot do it? I have never said that tomorrow we will vote this through, | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
we must reconcile people here and people on the side have the right to | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
ask, they have just had an economic near death experience and Jimmy was | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
right to talk about that. We were looking over the statistics on a | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
united Ireland in the lifetime and it is a very big sell to sell this | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
immediately and it will obviously be a longer term project but you would | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
have to say that on these figures, 30% supporting united Ireland, the | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
Secretary of State will not be calling for the border poll any time | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
soon. Trying to stabilise things seems to be the only real goal in | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
time. That's a sense | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
of political attitudes in Northern Are those fault lines repeated | :39:20. | :39:21. | |
when we look at how people here Well, 44% of people in | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
our NI survey said they're British. But there's a significant group who | :39:26. | :39:37. | |
think of themselves as Northern Irish - 22%. Look at this | :39:38. | :39:47. | |
difference in how people view Those outside Belfast are more than | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
twice as likely to refer to themselves as | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
Northern Irish than in the city, 25% Interesting. Well, the Northern or | :39:56. | :40:18. | |
as identity has come up in recent times, the new kid on the block, as | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
it were. It is hard to know exactly what people mean by that, it is | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
ambiguous, different things can mean different things to different people | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
and there has been some research suggesting it is maybe not such a | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
very strong identity, it perhaps changes over time, you might get | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
Catholics identifying as Northern Ireland and things happen when the | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
Union flag protests, maybe less so. One thing that seems to be the case | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
as a people who identify as Northern Ireland tend to know people from the | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
other side and they mix socially and perhaps this is where we see the | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
rest of Northern Ireland being stronger than Belfast, perhaps from | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
being closer to the border? Is that significant? What is significant is | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
that 55 people living in the North but not identify as British. They | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
identify as Irish, Northern Irish or other. And that does mirror that | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
figure looking back to... That is not necessarily true. How do you | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
think of yourself first? First and foremost as British? If you look at | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
the previous statistics, the number of people who supported devolution | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
plus the number supporting a united Ireland, 65% of the Catholic | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
population, if the 1% of the Protestant population and what that | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
means is that the vast majority of people living in the North do not | :41:49. | :41:50. | |
support being governed by Westminster. Mervyn was Mike people | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
would describe themselves as Irish and they have written the passports | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
so there is ambiguity about that question but I can see why a | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
significant number in Belfast classify themselves as British | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
because people are still living along interface walls and they | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
identify with the Roman particular community. Arlene Foster, are you | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
first and foremost British or Northern Irish? If I was answering | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
the question in the census, I would say British but I would consider | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
myself as Northern Irish. And British. Ever consider yourself | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
Irish? Not really, Northern Irish. Who would you cheer for in the | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
rugby? Ireland, we have Northern Ireland players! Sometimes. Don't be | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
afraid to say that. I am not afraid, I don't think anybody would say that | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
Arlene Foster is afraid of saying that. Your Irish when watching | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
rugby? We have some fabulous players from Ulster. And you know that. What | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
about you? British or Northern Irish? I have always been Irish. And | :42:57. | :43:04. | |
I am also British. I have no issues with that. And I am very proud of my | :43:05. | :43:12. | |
identity. OK. She is far better looking than me, we need to head | :43:13. | :43:24. | |
back to marry and RTE. -- million. -- Miriam. She is waiting for us. | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
Right, as you can see we are broadcasting | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
together live across Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
This time round we'll be concentrating on some of the key | :43:36. | :43:37. | |
What do people North and South think about same-sex | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
And do we have much in common with those living just across the border? | :43:42. | :43:52. | |
We thought we would test what people in Dublin and Belfast really know | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
about each other, do you recognise any of these faces? Enda Kenny, the | :43:59. | :44:15. | |
Taoiseach. Looks like George Bush. That is the Irish President. People | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
think he is from Titanic. The Taoiseach, Enda Kenny. He is the | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
minister, the headman. Peter Robinson. He is the partner with | :44:27. | :44:36. | |
Martin McGuinness? Peter Robinson. The First Minister. I know who he | :44:37. | :44:43. | |
is. Carl Frampton. Carl Frampton. I do not know. Who is he? Oscar | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
Pistorius? Rugby player? I don't know. Peter Taylor. -- Katie Taylor. | :44:50. | :45:01. | |
Boxer. Katie Taylor. I don't know. Haven't got a clue. Nope. Miriam. | :45:02. | :45:15. | |
Miriam O'Callaghan. I don't have a baldy. I know her face. Presenter? I | :45:16. | :45:25. | |
do not know. Stephen Nolan! Everybody knows him! Others are we | :45:26. | :45:33. | |
boy. Stephen Nolan. He is well fed, like myself. Is he a chef. John | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
Daly? Stephen Nolan, Nolan Live? That man was fatter than me, I will | :45:38. | :45:51. | |
tell you right now. I don't agree with what that | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
man said about me at all. Anyway it's only a snapshot | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
of opinion. How similar are we when it comes to | :46:00. | :46:00. | |
the big social issues north Those of you watching in the south | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
will know that same-sex marriage has been a huge issue culminating | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
in an historic vote, becoming the first country in the world to adopt | :46:12. | :46:13. | |
same-sex marriage by popular vote. Northern Ireland, by contrast, | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
is the only part of the United Kingdom where same-sex | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
marriage isn't available. But does that reflect what | :46:22. | :46:23. | |
people think North and South? To get a sense of that, | :46:24. | :46:30. | |
we asked how comfortable people would be if a close family member | :46:31. | :46:32. | |
married someone of the same gender. A large majority, 67%, | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
of people in the Republic said they'd be either fairly comfortable | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
or very comfortable with it and that's broadly in line with | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
the referendum earlier this year. In our survey, | :46:48. | :46:49. | |
one in five people in the Republic say they'd still be either fairly or | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
very uncomfortable with it. So that's what's happening | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
in the Republic. What's Northern | :46:56. | :46:57. | |
Ireland going to say? 64% percent are either fairly or | :46:58. | :46:59. | |
very comfortable with the idea of having a same-sex marriage | :47:00. | :47:15. | |
in the family. Actually, | :47:16. | :47:16. | |
that's similar to the Republic. We've ignored the people who said | :47:17. | :47:18. | |
don't know, but that still leaves nearly a quarter of people | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
in Northern Ireland who are fairly We also asked how people would feel | :47:22. | :47:35. | |
if a close family member married somebody with a different religious | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
background. In the south, the survey showed a very high level of comfort | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
with marriage between people of a different skin colour, mirrored in | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
Northern Ireland. It is similar with attitudes towards marriage, between | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
religious backgrounds in the family. 79% were broadly comfortable with it | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
in the south and Northern Ireland appeared a little bit more accepting | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
of afferent fate 's, with 84%. Northern Ireland seemed slightly | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
more comfortable with these issues. -- different faith. You carried out | :48:11. | :48:18. | |
this survey, Martha. Do you think there might be a reason for that? We | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
do. We think the majority of people in the North with a faith, are | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
either Catholic or Protestant. In the south, 85% declare themselves | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
catholic in the last census. The remaining 15%, there is a vast | :48:36. | :48:37. | |
swathe of different religions and | :48:38. | 0:41:44 |