Browse content similar to I Want My Baby Back. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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These parents have all lost their children because they have been | :00:08. | :00:14. | |
condemned as child abusers. But they say they are innocent. Did you ever | :00:15. | :00:22. | |
harm your baby girl? No. No, I would never harm her. Their babies were | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
taken after tiny fractures were spotted on X-rays. Doctors say they | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
are evidence of abuse. It is a case of if you didn't do it your partner | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
must have done, and you must have known your partner did because you | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
were in the house at the time. The authorities are on high alert after | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
missing shocking cases like baby P and Daniel Pelka, but are they now | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
going too far. Is it possible that parents have lost their children for | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
good by mistake? Of course it is possible. One campaigning MP even | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
said parents should flee the country rather than face justice in our | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
family courts. Because people don't face a fair trial here, my advice to | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
people if they can afford it to go abroad. Some of done that and now | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
they are numbers on the run. Sometimes I wish I didn't have to | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
live like this I wouldn't give him up for the world. Others have stayed | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
and seen their lives destroyed. He's got a family here that love and | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
adore him that have never done a thing wrong to him but yet we are | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
being torn apart. But the fractures could have other causes, including a | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
disease we thought we had beaten long ago. Some parents have proved | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
their innocence, and had their children returned. It was like a | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
nightmare that you don't ever seem to be able to wake up from. So are | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
medical mistakes and flawed child protection system shattering | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
innocent lives? I couldn't believe that this actually still happened in | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
England. I didn't think it could happen in England. | :02:03. | :02:13. | |
In April 2012 Jules graves birth to a beautiful boy. It should have been | :02:14. | :02:25. | |
a happy occasion, but there wasn't much to celebrate. Now he's here we | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
don't know what's going to happen. I had to give my passport and | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
everything over so they would let me leave the hospital, but everything | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
seems all right so far. I haven't heard anything from social services | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
yet. But just the waiting game really. Jill is a fugutive, her son | :02:47. | :02:57. | |
Loac was born hundreds of miles from home in a remote part of Spain. | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
British Association services have been searching for him from birth. | :03:02. | :03:10. | |
You are so tired aren't you? Her husband John had to travel in secret | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
from England to visit his new baby boy. Social workers tried | :03:15. | :03:35. | |
everything, even contacting Interpol to try to track them down. I had a | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
phone call from my aunt, apparently social services have been round her | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
house searching for her. I also found they have been to my parents' | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
house snooping around trying to find out where they are. We are basically | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
waiting to see now what they are going to do next. Social services | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
don't trust John and Jill as parents. They think they are child | :03:59. | :04:14. | |
abusers. It is June 2012 and I'm on my way to meet Jill. I have been | :04:15. | :04:23. | |
given directions to go to a town about two hours from here, once | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
there sit tight and wait for further instructions. I don't know where | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
Jill and Loac are living right now, that is a necessary precaution. Jill | :04:34. | :04:41. | |
has called me with directions to a safe house, it is not where she | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
lives. Her parents - bee and Gareth are here helping her. Jill is | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
enjoying getting to know her son, but she never feels sure. I never | :04:56. | :05:07. | |
imagined my life being like this at all, it is hard to leave the country | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
you have grown up in. I didn't really want to leave. But I wasn't | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
going to have my second baby taken by them. By social services. Jill's | :05:16. | :05:25. | |
first child Aylssa was taken into care in May 2010, she was just ten | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
weeks old. The family's problems started when they noticed a swelling | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
on her arm and took her to the GP. The doctor checked her over, said | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
that she didn't seem in any pain, but she referred me to the hospital. | :05:40. | :05:49. | |
They sent us for X-rays, and said that Aylssa had a trackure to her | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
arm and asked me how -- a fracture to her arm and asked me how it | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
happened. Further X-rays found three more fractures, one on each leg and | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
one on her ribs. Jill couldn't explain them, so doctors thought | :06:07. | :06:18. | |
Aylssa had been abused X-rays found three more fractures, one on each | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
leg and one on her ribs. Jill couldn't explain them, so doctors | :06:22. | :06:23. | |
thought Aylssa had been abused. Did you ever harm your baby girl? No I | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
would never harm her. Did you ever see John harm your baby girl? If I | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
had seen John do anything to harm her in any way or distress her I | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
wouldn't have wanted him to be around her, I wouldn't have let him | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
be around her. Doctors called in social workers from Wokingham | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
Borough Council and Aylssa was taken into care, even though Jill's mum | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
offered to look after the baby. I wasn't given that option. I was | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
told, no. It is because I would not say that my daughter had harmed her | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
daughter. Because I knew she couldn't. So a parent is worried | :07:00. | :07:08. | |
their child is hurt, they do the right thing, they bring the child to | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
hospital, but if they can't explain fractures on an X-ray they are | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
suspected of abuse and may have to leave without their child. They have | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
now entered the world of child protection. Sarah and Paul Ashley's | :07:20. | :07:34. | |
son was taken into care in 2009, when he was a few weeks old. He's a | :07:35. | :07:44. | |
good-looking boy, is that you? Their problems started when they noticed | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
their baby's right leg was swollen. We just thought there was something | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
wrong with our little boy and we did what any normal parents would do, | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
take them to the hospital. But X-rays showed multiple fractures to | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
the baby's legs and ribs. When Sarah and Paul couldn't explain them, | :08:03. | :08:11. | |
doctors assumed the worse. -- worst. Social workers took their baby away. | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
Having to go from being a mum, and being there constantly for him and | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
to then being told I can't hold him or be with him, it was just | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
horrendous. We were told that he wasn't coming home with us, so we | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
knew that whenever he left the hospital it wouldn't be with us, it | :08:31. | :08:39. | |
would be with someone else. But... It was difficult... Yeah. Everyone | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
agrees that protecting children from abuse is critically important. Local | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
authorities have the duty to investigate suspected cases and put | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
the welfare of the child first. They know that failing to take children | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
into care can have devastating consequences. Social workers have | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
come under massive pressure in the past when they have missed terrible | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
cases of child abuse like Baby P. But it is fear of getting it wrong, | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
is that leading to the opposite mistake? Some parents accused of | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
child abuse may be innocent. Since Baby P, the number of care cases has | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
risen dramatically, the last annual figures show more than 10 thousand | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
care application, a record high. Authorities say more children are | :09:37. | :09:45. | |
being protected. We can't play poker with children's safety, we have to | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
have a system that plays safe to begin with, does the work properly | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
to assess the level of risk, if we have got it wrong we have to show | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
the evidence to do that and to return a child home safely, but too | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
many children, historically, have suffered serious harm again back at | :10:03. | :10:12. | |
home it wrong we have to show the evidence to do that and to return a | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
child home safely, but too many children, historically, have | :10:16. | :10:17. | |
suffered serious harm again back at home. Parents' rights are not the | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
priority in these cases. The local authority has a duty to protect | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
children in its area and it also has a great big establishment to help | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
that to happen. Social workers, its zone lawyers, significant resources | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
compared to parents. It can seem to parents as if there is this great | :10:31. | :10:39. | |
juggernaut rolling over them. Sarah and Paul's son has been in poster | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
care for four years, he has had three different foster families. So | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
this is his room for when he comes home. They haven't given up on | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
getting him back. His favourite Tigger, bless him, the battery is | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
nearly dieing. But he loved pressing that. They have searched desperately | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
for any innocent explanation for his injuries, but so far they haven't | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
found one that convinces the experts or authorities. You say you didn't | :11:10. | :11:19. | |
cause his injuries, is that true? We never caused his injuries. I didn't | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
and Sarah didn't. We know each other much better than that. There has to | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
be a medical explanation for this. You don't know, do you? No. We | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
don't. We're not medical experts but it doesn't add up does it. It just | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
doesn't add up at all. You don't go from being a good person one day to | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
being a really bad person the other day. Paul and Sarah can't explain | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
the cause of the fractures, so they can't be a mum and dad. Bone | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
fractures sound simple and straight forward, but they are not. When you | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
think of a fracture, you think of a clean break. But in these cases, | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
many of the fractures are not like that at all. They are tiny cracks | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
which are often very difficult to detect. On this X-ray they are here, | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
unless parents can explain the cause, doctors almost always take | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
fractures as evidence of abuse. The reason for that as far as I can see | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
is that it is difficult to find other causes quit a lot of the time. | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
Most fractures in children occur result of physical trauma, usually | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
as a result of them falling over and hurting themselves when they are | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
older. To get multiple fractures, as an infant, where's that physical | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
trauma come from is a reasonable question. Lisa's another parent who | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
was asked that question. She had heard a strange clicking noise from | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
her baby's chest, but when X-rays showed fractures her days as a | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
mother were numbered. I don't know what was going to happen. I was | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
totally unprepared for it. And it is obviously turned my world | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
upsidedown. Lisa brought me to the hospital where social workers took | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
her baby. What was it like the moment you left? Heart-breaking. To | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
leave my son on the bed and walk away while the foster carer and the | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
social worker picked him up and left with him. Now Lisa sees her child | :13:42. | :13:56. | |
just twice a year. Did you harm your baby? No. You would say that though | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
wouldn't you? Definitely not, I wouldn't be going through this now | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
just to save face, just to you know cover it up. Lisa says the strain of | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
the investigation wrecked her relationship with her child's | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
father. It was case if you didn't do it your partner must have done, and | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
you must have known your partner did because you were in the house at the | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
time. It felt like they were playing us off against each other. The tight | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
restrictions around family court cases make it difficult for us to | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
investigate all the evidence. But we know that once fractures are found | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
parents feel under huge pressure to admit abuse. If you are denying | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
having done something when there is, on the face of t medical and other | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
evidence to suggest that you did do something, oddly enough you will | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
often do better if you admit it, even if you haven't done it. Because | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
then you are seen to be co-operative. John is not with his | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
wife Jill in Spain, because he says, under that pressure he made a | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
disastrous mistake. He says he lied to the authorities, making up ways | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
he may have accidentally hurt Aylssa. He thought Jill would be | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
able to keep the baby if he took the blame. I just had a gut feeling at | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
that point that yeah we were going to lose him and I had to come up | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
with something from that moment, I had to protect Jill and Aylssa. Why | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
did you lie? I couldn't have Jill losing Aylssa. That is the thing | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
that killed me the most and has hurt me the most over time. Working ham | :15:35. | :15:43. | |
council -- Wokingham Council deny putting pressure on the couple and | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
said John made the admission early in a police interview. Although John | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
was never charged, he stayed behind after Jill fled, hoping that would | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
keep her safe. He now says lying was a stupid thing to do but that he was | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
desperate. The system, critics say, demands a confession, or else you | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
lose the baby. But the moment you confess to abuse you lose the baby. | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
But innocent parents find a lose, lose situation. One MP has been | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
contacted by hundreds of parents going through the family courts. | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
Hello John, hi. Welcome to parliament. He says the process is | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
so unfair, rather than face justice here, parents should flee the | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
country. Is the system loaded against parents? There is no | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
question, all the cards are held by the local authority. The local | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
authority has large resources to fight the cases, the local authority | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
does all the assessments, so my advice to people if they can afford | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
it is to go abroad. That is wrong though isn't it, you are encouraging | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
people to leave the country because of social services, surely that's | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
wrong? I need to be honest to people and say the system does a lot of | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
damage to children in this country. You can't get a fair trial here, | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
because you can't get a fair trial here, because you can't rely on the | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
evidence being fair, it is best simply to go. If you can, at the | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
time, lawfully. I do think we have a responsibility to make our family | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
courts better, to make them more transparent, to build public | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
confidence in them. And to advocate leaving them all together doesn't | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
solve the problem for the vast majority of children and parents who | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
need our courts to be as good as they possibly can be. | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
All of these cases begin with a medical presumption that unexplained | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
fractures equal abuse. But that presumption is now being challenged, | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
the turning point was the death of this baby, Jayden Ray, his X-rays | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
were examined by four doctors before he died. They identified multiple | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
fractures and concluded that Jayden had been violently abused. But a | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
post mortem proved them wrong. The pathologist noticed something | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
strange about Jayden's bones straight away. Now in a | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
four-and-a-half-month-old baby I shouldn't be able to break their rib | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
with my hands, it should be much, much stronger, in this case it broke | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
very easily. Also the bone at the back of the head was so thin, paper | :18:28. | :18:36. | |
thin and brittle that it also broke. X-rays are just images, but the | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
doctor was able to look at the real thing, Jayden's bones, under the | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
microscope. She discovered he had a condition thought to be a thing of | :18:47. | :18:56. | |
the past, rickets. His vitamin D levels were low, and other bone | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
markers indicated he had rickets. When I tested the mother the mother | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
also had low vitamin D. Which means this baby had low vitamin D since | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
before birth. The doctor's findings showed there was an innocent | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
explanation for the fractures. The parents were cleared of murder, but | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
the verdict has wider implications. The case matters because it shows | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
that doctors diagnosing child abuse from X-rays can get it horribly | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
wrong. Rickets was once widespread in Britain. Found alongside poverty, | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
and poor nutrition. It is caused by a severe deficiency of vitamin D. It | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
is the failure of the bone that is being made within the bone to | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
mineralise and become properly hard. So you have got lots of little | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
patches of softness in there, and that allows the bones to bend. Weak | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
bones? Bones that are soft and have bent as a result of being soft, yes. | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
Rickets used to be treated by sun lamps, because the best source of | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
vitamin D is sunshine. The ultraviolet, the suntan rays produce | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
the help-giving vitamin D. The part played by the sun's rays is shown on | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
this graph, you will notice as the hours of sunshine rise, the death | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
rates sinks. The disease disappeared for decades but now vitamin D | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
deficiency and rickets are back, and one cause is simple. We get most of | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
our vitamin D from sunlight, but fear of skin cancer means people may | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
have overcompensated, aid voiding the sun and using -- avoiding the | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
one and using sun block. And now most of us don't get enough vitamin | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
D, including children and pregnant mums. The deficiency in vitamin D is | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
widespread it could affect Ninkovich. Could low vitamin D lead | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
to weaker bones before it becomes an obvious case of rickets. On this | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
controversial science the doctors don't agree. On the skeltal side of | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
things, we don't have any evidence at the present time that a low | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
vitamin D level of itself increases your risk of fracture. But the data | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
hasn't been collected in a systematic way. There is, as with | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
many things in medicine, an appreciation now that the complexity | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
of what we are dealing with is greater than perhaps what we had | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
anticipated in the past. Low vitamin D by itself may not lead to | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
fractures, but some doctors believe it is a warning side that bones may | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
be abnormal. The logical thing would be that before you get to the very | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
fragile bones you havecmy fragile bones and normal bones, you don't go | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
from this point to this without nothing in the middle. It is | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
something that happens over time. We don't know at what point the changes | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
are so significant that you are more prone to fractures. The problem is | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
it is difficult for doctors to carry out research in studies of infant | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
bones, for fear of hurting babies. But one recent study looked at the | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
post mortems of babies with low vitamin D. When doctors just looked | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
at X-rays they spotted bone abnormalities in 19% of the babies. | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
Under the microscope doctors found bone abnormalities in 69%. We were | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
looking at the bone at 600-times magnification, we were able to see | :22:54. | :23:03. | |
the bone, the culls -- calcium. That is why the microscopic examination | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
of the tissue is ahead of radiology. The sample was small but the study | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
proves a crucial point, X-rays can't always detect abnormalities in a | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
child's bones. It has been said and accepted by some radiologists in | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
cross-examination that it is almost as much an art as a science. Because | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
you are looking at very, very slight changes on pictures of X-rays and | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
interpreting from your experience. So it is not like putting something | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
in a test-tube and seeing if it turns pink or blue, it is a very | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
different thing. Challenging traditional thinking on X-rays and | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
fractures is not easy. I'm not saying that every child with a | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
fracture has a vitamin D deficiency. I have had cases in the family court | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
where I said so, that is certainly not all of cases of a baby with | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
fractures will be child abuse. The grey cases in the middle are the | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
really difficult ones. Jill, the mum on the run in Spain lost her | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
daughter after doctors found fractures on X-rays. But they might | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
not have been caused by abuse. A blood test showed that Aylssa had | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
very low levels of vitamin D. It was a small blood sample and so the test | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
should have been repeated, yet her vitamin D levels appeared so low | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
that doctors began treating her with calcium-boosting medicine. But Jill | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
and John were kept in the dark about their baby's condition for weeks, | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
they were not told that baby Aylssa was being treated for vitamin D | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
deficiency, and all of this time, because of the X-rays, they were | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
being accused of child abuse. Has anybody explained to you that might | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
be a reason why your baby has got fractures? No. It was swept under | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
the carpet. That wasn't the reason at all. I had e-mailed loads of | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
information that I had found on vitamin D deficiency, rickets, to my | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
solicitor, I was told that we weren't allowed to use that, it was | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
like we were making an excuse for how, for the injuries. Aylssa's case | :25:21. | :25:34. | |
went to the family court, where strict rules keeps the families from | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
out. Guilty beyond reasonable doubt doesn't apply, it is based on | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
probabilities, the explanation that is most likely to be true. It was a | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
total nightmare. You can't prove your innocence against them. They | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
don't allow you to prove their innocence. I couldn't believe that | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
this actually still happened in England. I didn't think it could | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
happen in England. Ultimately the judge decided that John had | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
deliberately hurt the baby and that Jill must have known. Jill and her | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
family refused to accept the ruling. And that was held against them. All | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
they kept on about that I was lying, and that I knew far more than what I | :26:20. | :26:29. | |
had said. I wasn't fit to be around Aylssa. Because I didn't agree that | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
I knew more, like they were saying, then that was why I wasn't allowed | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
to have Aylssa home, because I wasn't safe to be around her. | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
Wokingham council says the couple were told about Aylssa's medical | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
results in good time. They say if Jill had separated from John then | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
the ultimate welfare decision might have been different. Aylssa's case | :26:54. | :27:01. | |
was heard at a time when it was hard to challenge medical evidence on | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
fractures. But the Jayden Ray case changed things. In every case I have | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
had since Jayden Ray, where there is a fracture, the first question asked | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
is, what were the vitamin D levels and is there a problem. Is it | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
possible that category of parents who had this set of problems before | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
Jayden Ray have lost their children for good by mistake. Of course it is | :27:27. | :27:36. | |
possible. Sarah has low vitamin D after the birth of her son. But at | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
that critical time her baby was not tested. Lots of love with mummy. She | :27:41. | :27:49. | |
believes there was a medical explanation for his fractures that | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
wasn't found. But now four years on it is impossible to prove. Sarah and | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
Paul are still allowed to see their son, because he hasn't been adopted. | :28:01. | :28:09. | |
They get just four contact visits a year, today is one of them. Sarah's | :28:10. | :28:17. | |
parents are going along to see their grandson too. The visit will last | :28:18. | :28:27. | |
just one hour and every second will be supervised by social workers. The | :28:28. | :28:44. | |
time after seeing their boy is the hardest. | :28:45. | :28:58. | |
From my little boy. It is now another three months to wait and | :28:59. | :29:12. | |
hope and pray, just that waiting game. It is. It is so hard after he | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
has been so happy with us, for that hour, and it was so good, and then | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
just as we told him he had to put his coat on to leave he came up and | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
put his arms around me and said sorry mummy. What's going through | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
his mind. Does he think that it's his fault that he's not with his | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
mummy and daddy. It's so heart-breaking to leave him. If | :29:37. | :29:48. | |
their son is adopted they lose the right to see him ever again. You | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
dread the phone ringing thinking that you are going to get that phone | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
call from social services to say that they have found somebody. And | :29:59. | :30:09. | |
to think that we won't be part of his life and that he will grow up | :30:10. | :30:25. | |
without us is heart-breaking. It is difficult, because you have two | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
innocent parents fighting for their son and you never think it could | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
ever get to this. It is difficult, it really is. But we keep fighting. | :30:38. | :30:45. | |
We won't give up, will we? No. Many parents whose children have | :30:46. | :31:05. | |
been taken have turned to Sophie Palmer, she's a campaigner who | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
trained as a paralegal to help parents in the family courts. She | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
has been supporting Jill, the mum on the run in Spain. When Sophie looked | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
at evidence from Jill's original hearing, she was shocked. It | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
appeared that the medical experts had not been adequately challenged | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
and may even have got important things wrong. I just thought it | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
doesn't add up. This is a two-month-old baby with a, with | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
perfectly decent parents, why would they just turn on their childlike | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
this. When she -- child, like this. When she told me the child's vitamin | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
D level was so severe, how can they treat it as insignificant. Sophie | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
asked for an appeal for Jill. Which meant some of the evidence from the | :31:57. | :31:58. | |
first hearing was finally made public. Radiologist Dr John Summer's | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
said Aylssa's evidence showed no evidence of rickets so that couldn't | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
be a cause of her injuries. We now know that logic is wrong. Cases like | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
Jayden Ray has shown that rickets is not always clear on X-rays. | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
Paediatrician Dr Patricia Kenny said Aylssa's blood tests were normal and | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
she did not have vitamin D deficiency, both wrong. Dr Kenny | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
also claimed infants of white breast-feeding mothers are not at | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
risk of vitamin D deficiency. Really? It is possible for a white, | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
Caucasian baby to develop rickets. And I can give you a personal | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
example, my son was on the way to developing rickets, my wife was | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
breast-feeding him. And gradually we noticed the edge of his rib cage was | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
beginning to look slightly odd and turning up slightly. That is one of | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
the signs you can see when bone is soft like rickets. And when her | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
vitamin D and his vitamin D was measured they were both very low. It | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
can happen to Ninkovich. The contrary, for example, it can't | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
happen to a white baby that's being breast fed, is that true? Clearly | :33:12. | :33:23. | |
not. , it can't happen to a white baby that's being breast fed, is | :33:24. | :33:25. | |
that true? Clearly not. The Dr Stands by his statement on X-ray, | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
both he and Dr Kenny say they can't comment on the details of the case | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
because of family court rules. Jill and John were refused permission to | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
appeal. Aylssa was adopted and that can never be overturned. It felt | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
like a huge injustice. I was sitting next to Jill and of course she just | :33:47. | :33:54. | |
burst into tears, she had hope up until that point. It was hard | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
handing her over to the, knowing that I wasn't going to be able to | :34:01. | :34:13. | |
see her again. How often do you think about her? All the time. I | :34:14. | :34:21. | |
just wonder what she's doing now, if she's all right, if she's safe, if | :34:22. | :34:35. | |
she remembers me. It's not the only case where parents believe the | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
medical issues were not adequately explored. I stopped mentioning | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
anything medical at a certain point because they weren't listening. I | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
was made to feel like it was just making me look stupid and more | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
guilty, if you like. Taking the, obviously the blame off of myself | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
and putting it on to something that didn't exist, apparently. Lisa was | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
anaemic during pregnancy and her vitamin D levels were so low that | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
she's still on calcium boosters. Experts say vitamin D tests are | :35:16. | :35:23. | |
vital in these cases. The best we can hope for is every child under | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
the age of 1 that comes in with a fracture has a bone profile measured | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
by a chemical test, the calcium alkaline, phosphate, vitamin D. That | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
is the thing we would want to do now. But Lisa's baby didn't get the | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
crucial test. The child now calls someone else mummy. It is | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
heart-breaking, the first time I heard that was during a contact | :35:53. | :36:00. | |
visit. And my automatic reaction was to go to him thinking he was | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
referring to me. To see him then look around me and I was told it was | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
just a word. There was nothing to get upset about. That word is | :36:12. | :36:30. | |
"mummy". Yeah. Is it just a word? If S word that has a lot of meaning to | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
it. It is a word I should have heard every day for the last four years. | :36:35. | :36:50. | |
Amy got shocking news when her baby son was X-rayed, she had opened that | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
would help doctors find out why he was so ill. Instead they showed | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
multiple fractures. Blood tests showed baby Harrison had severe | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
vitamin D deficiency, but doctors ruled out rickets because it wasn't | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
visible on the X-rays. The doctor, a paediatrician came rushing into the | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
room with three other staff members and the atmosphere had completely | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
changed from there, she was vicious, really vicious, you have done | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
something, you know, someone has abused this boy. You must have | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
caused the fractures. I broke down in tears, I couldn't really say | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
anything. Harrison and his sister were taken into care, but here Amy | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
was unusually lucky, the judge placed them with Amy's mother. Once | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
again the medical experts said that Harrison had been abused. Medical | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
expert evidence is hugely important and can often be all be decisive. | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
You have an expert saying this is a fracture, and I'm a top radiologist, | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
it is difficult to get behind that without, again, very good lawyers, | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
and if possible other expes in to challenge it. Family court experts | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
are a small and select group, and some experts report on dozens of | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
cases a year, it is lucrative work. The expert radiologist in Amy's case | :38:25. | :38:34. | |
is a leading expert on X-rays. He has provided evidence in 2,000 cases | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
of suspected child abuse. We can't name him because of secrecy around | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
the family courts. In Amy's case he said Harrison's bones were radio | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
logically normal, and ruled out the possibility that an illness could | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
explain his injuries. The other expert agreed. That could have been | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
the end of the line for Amy. She faced losing her children forever. | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
Except for one crucial fact, Harrison continued to be ill. He | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
would cry in agony, especially at nightime, he wouldn't be able to | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
sleep properly, he would wake up 14-times a night. And you are not | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
there. It is not you then it is sim. There is something wrong. -- it is | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
him. There is something wrong. The court allowed Amy to appoint another | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
expert, an expert in genetics who discovered the family had an unusual | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
history of broken bones and fractures. | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
He doesn't mess about, does he. Here he says "here I disagree completely | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
that there is strong evidence that Harrison and certain other family | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
members do have an inher rited defect of connective tissue with a | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
susceptibility to fracture". How did you feel when you read that? Amazed | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
that somebody was willing to actually stand up against these | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
doctors. We're getting a diagnosis, we're getting the truth. The | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
professor of genetics eventually convinced the court, Harrison was | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
diagnosed and treated for rickets and a genetic bone disorder. | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
Obviously things do happen, people do abuse their children, I'm not | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
denying that. But at the same time they need to be being vigilent, | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
because these conditions can go unnoticed. These conditions do exist | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
and it is just as likely that these conditions are causing the fractures | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
as it is the parents would be. The same radiologist was involved in | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
another fracture case where the judge felt the experts stated their | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
conclusions too forcefully. "It could be that what has been stated | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
so confidently by paediatric radiologists, as near certainty is, | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
in reality, much less certain" the judge said. The radiologist told us | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
that doctors had to put "the well being of the child first", however | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
distressing this may be to the parents. And that his role is to | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
convey what his experience has been and what the published literature | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
concludes. His name must remain a secret. Back in Spain Jill's been | :41:20. | :41:31. | |
living in hiding for ten months now. But a Spanish police officer has | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
turned up asking questions. Jill is terrified that the UK authorities | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
have found her and are planning to seize her child. I head for a town | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
on the coast to meet her and her parents Debbie and Gareth. This is a | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
rare outing for them. They are frayed to leave the house and now | :41:51. | :41:58. | |
don't go anywhere without Loac. The other day we came back home and | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
there was a police officer coming down towards our house. He wanted | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
mine and John's passport numbers. We have never had Ninkovich come before | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
for passport numbers. What were you thinking at that moment? What would | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
I do if Ninkovich came in and tried to take him from meumbers. What were | :42:21. | :42:32. | |
you thinking at that moment? What would I do if anyone came in and | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
tried to take him from me. What would you have done? Not let go of | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
him. The Spanish police said it was routine, but Jill is worried they | :42:39. | :42:49. | |
will be back? How scared scared am I, very scared. They are vigilent | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
now about the authorities? We keep an eye on cars behind us. We take | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
different routes. Wing mirrors, if we go somewhere a different route | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
back. They are not getting their hand on this one. Sometimes I think | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
I wish I didn't have to live life like this, but I wouldn't give up | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
Loac for the world. The council admits using Interpol to try to find | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
Jill, it said it would be irresponsible not to, as it has a | :43:22. | :43:29. | |
duty to safeguard children. When Loac reaches his first birthday Jill | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
can apply for him to become a Spanish citizen. Until then she | :43:34. | :43:41. | |
remains a mum on the run. I have nightmares that I just, well | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
mainly of Aylssa being taken from me, and people saying, ripping her | :43:48. | :43:55. | |
away from me, saying that I can't see her. I have some... Just that | :43:56. | :44:05. | |
something has happened to her and she's not still alive. I'm never | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
going to see her again. In Bristol Amy now gets to enjoy the | :44:09. | :44:41. | |
simple things in a child's life. After Harrison's genetic disease was | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
diagnosed, social services dropped the case. Amy was finally able to | :44:46. | :44:55. | |
bring her children home. How did that feel? Incredible. Absolutely | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
amazing. We weren't even aware it was going to happen. It happened | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
because I phoned social services and they dropped in, oh by the way I | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
suppose we better tell you that we are actually going to drop the case | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
against you. I sort of fell to the floor and I had to, I was | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
speechless, everyone staired at me and -- stared at me and asked I was | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
I OK, I sat crying with the phone in my hand. South Gloucestershire | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
council said they had to carry out a thorough investigation to ensure | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
children are safeguards and they act on professional medical advice. | :45:37. | :45:50. | |
However they regret the distress the investigation caused. | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
Lisa still hopes her case could have a happy ending, she is giving up her | :45:57. | :46:03. | |
flat to have money for an appeal. We moved here to have a fresh start. We | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
only were here six months when our situation happened. She's moving in | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
with her sister and taking on extra work. How much is an appeal going to | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
cost, with the Court of Appeal? From what I know it is tens and tens of | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
thousands, it is ?20,000, it depends what experts are used and how long | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
it takes. It is going to mean working as many hours as I can and | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
saving as many pennies as I can. But it won't be easy. Do you ever think | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
about giving up? All the time. How do you get through that? Knowing | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
that I haven't done anything wrong. I want the wrongs put right. I | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
refuse to give in to the way I have been treated the last couple of | :46:54. | :47:09. | |
years. Loac has just had his first birthday. That means Jill can apply | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
for him to become a Spanish citizen. It is a big step because British | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
Association workers may now discover where they live. Jill has agreed to | :47:19. | :47:26. | |
let us film at her home for the first time. Dad, John, is travelling | :47:27. | :47:34. | |
over from England to sign the paperwork. It has been nearly a year | :47:35. | :47:42. | |
since he has seen his little boy. They both felt that Loac was safer | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
from social services if John stayed in Britain. Hello, how are you | :47:47. | :47:59. | |
doing. Hello soldier. No! Can I have a cuddle. Come here. You are a heavy | :48:00. | :48:12. | |
boy aren't you. Loac only knows his dad from Skype. He's really chilled. | :48:13. | :48:28. | |
Let's see what we are doing. That is where we were going. There is only | :48:29. | :48:38. | |
so much I can expect, doesn't even know I'm his dad. John stayed in the | :48:39. | :48:48. | |
UK in the hope that the authorities couldn't find Jill by tracking him. | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
I found out that Interpol were looking for me and they contacted my | :48:56. | :49:03. | |
mum asking where I was and if the baby was safe. So I did e-mail them | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
and told them that he's fine. I sent a picture of him. Seeing Loac only | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
reminds John how much he misses his daughter. Remember, he was never | :49:16. | :49:26. | |
charged with harming Aylssa. He has now retracted his statement to the | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
police about how he might have accidentally caused her injuries. I | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
can't understand why we didn't get Aylssa back, I fully understand why | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
they investigated her, but why the investigation went so cruel and | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
twisted and such a witch-hunt just to take our daughter. That is what I | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
don't understand. I love Loac to pieces but my main thing is Aylssa, | :49:50. | :50:03. | |
that's the one that kills me. Today John and Jill are making Loac's | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
application for Spanish citizenship. Jill's brother is along to | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
translate. But they haven't brought Loac they are worried social workers | :50:14. | :50:25. | |
could be waiting to take him. But there is no sign of trouble, and the | :50:26. | :50:35. | |
application is in. Loac will soon be a Spanish citizen and his parents | :50:36. | :50:48. | |
hope that will keep him safe. We haven't forgotten anything have we. | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
I'm hoping not now. Back in the UK, Sarah and Paul's worst fear has come | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
true, their little boy is going to be adopted. They have been told this | :51:01. | :51:09. | |
will be their final contact. Are you ready? As ready as I will ever be. | :51:10. | :51:17. | |
Sarah's parents are coming too, to see their grandson for the last | :51:18. | :51:28. | |
time. Social workers have agreed to let them extra time. Today they get | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
two hours with their son. They film their final visit. Do you want to | :51:33. | :51:48. | |
sit down. The visit is over and the family are | :51:49. | :52:14. | |
back home. You know we are here, you know that. I want my baby. I know | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
you do my duck. I wish I could get him for you. Have I a good cry love. | :52:21. | :52:38. | |
Adoption in the UK is irreversible, whatever happens now their son | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
cannot be returned to them. It doesn't matter what we say. Of | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
course it doesn't. These people they are a law unto themselves. They do | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
what they want. They do what they want, they say what they want. From | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
now until he's 18, the only connection Sarah and Paul can have | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
with their son is through exchange of letters once a year. It is the | :53:04. | :53:12. | |
same rule for his grandparents. You and his granddad will get a letter, | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
she said. I just turned to her and I said, yeah, but I'm never going to | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
see him again, I won't be alive when he gets to 18. I will never stop | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
loving him, Paul, and if I'm not here I want you to tell him that. | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
That me and his granddad will always love him. We know that. You know | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
that. We love you both. We know you do. I don't know how they expect you | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
to say goodbye to your child. You know. He's not dead, is he honestly, | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
I really don't know. I don't care, wherever, if he's | :53:49. | :54:09. | |
going and he's gone, wherever he's going, that family could never love | :54:10. | :54:37. | |
him... Gibe darling. It's hard to overstate the loss of a child. I | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
don't know anyone or I haven't met a client who wouldn't go to go to | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
prison than lose their child. It is very difficult that we have a | :54:51. | :54:52. | |
standard of proof because of the need to protect children which puts | :54:53. | :55:03. | |
parents at that sort of risk. Given what is at stake, it is important | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
the family courts don't get it wrong. To what scale do you think | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
there is injustice in the family court system? One case is not | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
acceptable, in the sense that we should have a system that picks up. | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
When it gets to this level it is a tsunami of injustice. We don't know | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
how many problem cases there are, the Government says reform of family | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
justice is a critical priority. They want new standards for expert | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
witnesses and better outcomes for children and families. | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
One wronged parent is one parent too many, just as one child left without | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
protection is one child too many. And each professional mistake that | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
comes to light should drive us to have "zero tolerance" in the future. | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
Even the judge now in charge of the family courts says that only the | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
death penalty is more drastic than removing a child from the parents | :55:57. | :56:06. | |
forever. He's committed to opening up the family courts. But in | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
fracture cases judges will still rely heavily on medical experts. | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
Mums like Amy know how powerful their opinions can be. She has had | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
another little boy. But her family was almost torn apart. It was like a | :56:22. | :56:30. | |
nightmare you don't seem to ever be able to wake up from. It is | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
something that stays with you and niggles away at you even when it is | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
gone. Even when it is finished. And yeah, it never goes away. In | :56:40. | :56:46. | |
Harrison's case, the medical evidence was exhaustively | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
investigated, but Amy can't forget the other parents who have lost | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
their children forever. It will be over when they stop doing this to | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
other people. When I can say that now people have learned this is | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
happening and they are not going to carry on accusing innocent parents. | :57:08. | :57:23. | |
Back in Spain, it is time for John to go home. He has agreed with Jill | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
that it is better if he stays in the UK for now. I love you lots, be a | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
good boy for mummy. I just have to think and keep Loac safe, and one | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
day we will be back living together and be as a family again, just not | :57:40. | :57:49. | |
yet. To be honest I'm not happy that my son has to be made a Spanish | :57:50. | :57:58. | |
citizen. I think I should be able to live my life with my wife and my | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
child in my home land, I don't think it is right we have to go through | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
this process just to keep my son safe. To keep her little boy Jill | :58:06. | :58:20. | |
has been forced to live on the run, because of the secrecy surrounding | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
the family courts we don't know how many other cases there could be like | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
her's. But we do know that many families still face losing their | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
children forever if they can't explain tiny fractures on an X-ray. | :58:37. | :58:48. |