Britain's Equal Pay Scandal Panorama

Every day, Britain's discovering

just how much more men

are earning than women.

The gender pay gap's been

revealed at hundreds...

Female employees earning up

to 43% less than male

employees at Barclays.

Nearly 50 years after equal pay

became the law, could this be

the year that things finally change?

We're not little ladies any more,

we do just as much hard work.

Chanting

"What do we want?

Equal pay!

When do we want it?

Now".

The BBC, my own employer, has found

itself at the centre of the row.

I felt somebody had to do it,

somebody had to call management out.

When you're in a talent business,

there are many, many reasons

as to why people might be

paid slightly differently.

Now I'm off around the country,

and beyond, to find out what's

behind Britain's Equal Pay Scandal.

The glitzy enclave of Monaco might

seem an unlikely place to begin

a story about equal pay in Britain.

I've come to Monte Carlo,

to meet someone who wants to speak

to me about the BBC and equal pay.

She's a world famous sports star

and she's spent years

appearing on the BBC.

The BBC reveals the pay

of its top stars.

Of the list of 96 best paid,

only a third are women

and the top seven are all men.

Guest of honour here at a sports

awards, but she isn't one

of the BBC's best paid stars...

Martina Navratilova.

I left my country,

which was a totally terror regime,

Czech Republic, communist country -

I left that country

because I couldn't speak out,

so I'm speaking out because it

affects so many, so many

women across the board.

The BBC's published one

tennis pundit's pay.

John McEnroe is getting £150-200,000

for his Wimbledon fortnight.

Good evening to you,

I'm looking forward to discussing

and dissecting this match.

We're going to...

His earnings were news to his fellow

Wimbledon commentator,

Martina Navratilova.

It's hard to really compare exactly,

because some people work

a little longer days,

maybe fewer or more

programmes, whatever.

But overall, it was a shock

because John McEnroe

makes at least £150,000.

I get about £15,000 for Wimbledon,

and unless John McEnroe's doing

a whole bunch of stuff

outside of Wimbledon,

he's getting at least ten times

as much money.

Ten times?

For very comparable

work, so, yeah...

At the moment, that's what I know.

How do you feel about that?

Not happy, needless to say.

I mean, it's shocking.

It's extremely unfair and it

makes me angry for the other women

that I think go through this.

The BBC might say, well

John McEnroe does more hours

or he's on air longer.

Ten times as much?

I don't think so.

Commentator:

And the

dream has come true!

A pioneer, an activist, an icon...

Martina Navratilova

has won Wimbledon more

times than John McEnroe.

As a pundit, last year Panorama

estimates he made about three

times as many appearances

during the tournament as she did.

You cannot be serious, man,

you cannot be serious!

Did you ever say to theBBC,

"Am I earning a comparable amount

to a man doing a similar job?"

Absolutely, and we were told yes,

I was getting a compatible amount,

so we were not told the truth.

That's for sure.

Because it's 50 years now

since the Equal Pay Act in Britain.

Wow.

Yeah, 50 years since equal pay.

So it's the law!

And BBC is a public corporation.

Yeah, they've got to do better.

Bbc sport told Panorama the two

pundits are simply not compatible.

John McEnroe is contracted to be

on call throughout the tournament.

His role is of a different scale,

scope and time commitment

to Martina Navratilova.

# I want to spend my life

with a girl like you...#.

The fight for equal pay in Britain

is as old as this Ford Cortina.

Made in Dagenham, the same year that

women's sewing machinists here went

on strike to establish

they were as skilled as the men

and should be paid the same.

How far are you prepared to go

in striking to insist

on being skilled labour?

As far as it takes.

It seems incredible that it's

50 years since women

here at Ford Dagenham fought

for equal pay.

That's half a century, and women

across britain are still fighting.

Do you believe in

this women's strike?

No, I don't, they should

get the same as lads.

You don't believe in equal pay?

No, no, no.

The Ford women were laughed

at when they demanded their rights

and equal pay, but they united,

fought back and took

their case to Parliament.

Our legislation will provide,

therefore, that by the end of 1975,

it will at last be illegal

to discriminate against

women in rates of pay.

APPLAUSE

The Equal Pay Act

established that women and men must

be paid equally for equal work,

even if the jobs are different.

But how you establish

that is complicated, and,

to this day, it's been

open to argument.

4000 women have taken the region's

biggest council to an employment

tribunal in a fight to get the same

pay as men.

I'm on my way to Birmingham,

this city at the centre

of a landmark case.

It was here a decade ago

the principle of equal pay for work

of equal value was established.

Women council workers,

carers and cleaners argued

they should be paid the same

as binmen and they won.

It's been three years

in the planning, hasn't it?

We've been trying to get it

through and it's a milestone

for all the ladies who work

for Birmingham City Council.

Jobs that were done predominantly

by men were getting generally bonus

payments that were substantially

greater than the women were...

I mean, the women didn't get any

bonuses, so they had men

and women on the same grade,

where the men were getting 100-200%

more than the women for jobs that

were rated as equivalent.

Winning their equal pay case meant

six years' backpay for the women.

It cost Birmingham Council

more than £1 billion.

It had to sell off

the National Exhibition Centre.

I was at the opening of the NEC

when the Queen came,

back in the '70s, and to see it

being sold off was a very

sad day in my life.

Do you think that people

realise how expensive,

how ruinous - potentially -

equal pay cases could be

across the country?

No I don't, no I don't,

and I don't think that we really

have started to see the full

ramifications of

the equal pay claims.

Councils would say that you're

an ambulance chaser,

you're making a lot of money out

of these equal pay cases

and councils are suffering

and services are suffering,

and you're making money.

Well, I'll only make money if I win

and I don't get paid until I win.

And you've won quite a lot of cases?

Well, then I'm good at what I do.

Chanting: "Equal pay

or we walk away!"

Glasgow council workers mark 100

years since the suffragettes won

women the right to vote.

These women, cleaners and carers,

have also been fighting for more

than ten years to be paid the same

as street sweepers and binmen.

We're still fighting in Glasgow,

as we were in Birmingham.

It's like deja vu all over again.

They fought the litigation,

the cases were resolved,

they changed their pay system,

we have to sue them all over again.

Amongst the glasgow protesters

was Amanda Green, a home carer.

It's just quite sad that the women

risked their lives back then

for voting, and I think

they would be very disappointed

if they knew it was happening today,

that women were still doing the same

stuff and trying to fight for equal

pay against a man.

Days later, as snow brought

the city to a standstill,

Amanda was preparing to go out

in subzero temperatures.

She walks five miles daily to care

for 15 housebound people.

We work with machinery,

we're going to people who have

dementia and that is a hard job.

We're sort of like counsellors,

you could say, just trying

to make them feel better.

Some people don't even have

family, so we're the only

people that they see.

Does anybody want a cup

of tea or coffee?

All the women in this

family are carers.

Amanda, her mother Nancy

and sister Samantha.

Nancy's been involved in the equal

pay fight right from the start.

The money must be there

because they found the money

for the gentlemen, how are they not

finding the money for the ladies?

Nancy's husband, Michael,

used to be a bin man -

the very job she thinks is of equal

value to hers.

Nancy used to work 50-60 hours

a week, just to get a decent wage.

And I worked for another council

and I could work a lot less hours

and still bring home more money.

It's terrible.

I'm staying with my

mum and dad, I'm 26.

I am trying to save for a house,

and I've been saving up

up but if I had more,

like obviously the same money

that the men were getting,

then that meant that

I could have been saving more,

I could have bought a house quicker.

The women say the Labour council

and the trades unions fought

against their equal pay claim

for years, but now the SNP

is running Glasgow City Hall

and the mood has changed.

But there's no deal, yet.

I've come to meet the leader

of Glasgow City Council; a woman.

She was elected last year

on a pledge to put right the equal

pay issues facing the city.

The spectre's been raised,

Glasgow could face a bill

of half a billion pounds,

that could impact services and mean

selling off valuable property.

Essentially the message that has

been given to these women doing

these essential jobs is, "You don't

matter as much as buildings".

I believe that the historic assets

glasgow owns are phenomenally

important for this city,

and we will do everything to avoid

having to sell them off.

We need to do the right thing

by our women workers.

It's going to be a difficult

process and the resolution

is going to be difficult,

but difficult isn't an excuse.

Across the country, now

the principle of equal pay for equal

value has been established

in the public sector,

women in the private

sector want the same.

Because everything is on show

and easy to reach, housewives

are finding shopping easier,

quicker and more convenient.

This year, the supermarkets

are strongly contesting

multi-billion pound lawsuits.

I met up with Linda Wong,

a lawyer based in Manchester,

who's handling 20,000 claims

by women against

their employer, Asda.

It's massive.

Asda is the largest private-sector

equal pay claim that's been

brought in UK history.

Tesco is currently following

suit and in Sainsbury's

it's over 1000 people.

But this could cripple

the supermarkets, the costs

involved, thousands

and thousands of cases?

Yes, there is a potential

fiscal liability to them,

but you've got to balance that

with the fact that these women have

been underpaid for years.

One of Linda's clients worked

for 16 years on the tills

and displays at Sainsbury's,

jobs mostly done by women.

Christine Trenchard says

she was underpaid compared

to workers in distribution,

jobs mostly done by men.

We were on less than

what the blokes, the men were, yeah.

My maximum wage is £8.50,

and I believe theirs this

possibly £12 an hour.

So that's a £4 difference.

Yeah, yeah.

What do you say to people who say

this could be very expensive

for the supermarkets,

if all these women win

their legal claims?

Should have thought of that.

Sorry, but at the end of the day

we're all employed by the same

people and we're all worthy

of the same wage.

Why should men get more

money than what we do?

The information Linda gets

from Christine about her job will be

used by independent assessors

to decide if it's of

the same value as a job

in storage and distribution.

There is a common misconception that

shop floor work is simple

because you are just replenishing

shelves and distribution work

is more difficult because they're

working in difficult conditions

and it's hazardous.

When you're looking at the concept

of equal value, you will look at,

yes, conditions of work,

but so many other factors will be

taken into consideration.

Maybe some thought should be put

to all of the other things that go

on on the shop floor,

aside from the shelf stacking,

because they deal with customers.

They have do assess age restriction

items, whether they can sell knives

or alcohol to people,

that's not easy.

I'm not doing it for myself, for

money, I'm doing it for principle.

We had Dagenham 50 years ago, where

they were fighting for equal pay.

I don't want my daughters,

or my granddaughter that's due,

in 50 years' time to be

fighting the same.

It's 2018.

Sainsbury's told us...

I think what's happening

within these supermarkets

in particular is that you're really

seeing how far the hype

around equal pay has gone.

That people are claiming gender

discrimination by not even

comparing jobs like-for-like,

but comparing their job

to a completely different role.

The costs to supermarkets could be

huge and very detrimental.

Who is the knock-on effect really

going to hurt and my suspicion

is that it would hit the employees

of these companies.

These jobs are now at threat.

Achieving equal pay takes

more than lawsuits.

It requires changing

the British workplace,

by being more open about staff pay.

That is why the government is making

all organisations with more than 250

employees publish their average wage

difference between the sexes.

It is called the gender pay gap.

Nationally, on average, men

are being paid 18% more than women.

But the gap is far higher

in places like the city.

Dominated by top earning males.

At Barclays, it is 48%

and at HSBC, it is 59%.

And then there is the airlines.

Thousands of girls in Britain

want to be air hostesses.

It is one of the world's

top glamour jobs.

But you have certainly got to be

a top flight charmer to win a top

airline personality contest.

This was the traditional image

of women in the skies.

And change is proving

a slow process.

The winner was to be presented

with a brand-new car.

And actor Edward Woodward,

TV's Callan, was there to hand over

the keys to the lucky girl.

We are going to Lisbon today.

# Come fly with me.

# Let's fly...

Marnie Munns is one

of easyJet's female pilots,

but there aren't enough like her.

EasyJet has a high gender pay gap,

over 50%, because most

of their pilots are men.

And they are the best paid

employees, so there is a big gap

across the company between what men

and women earn.

EasyJet is trying to

train more Marnies.

The original female intake was 6%.

We then decided to double

the figures from six

to 12% in two years.

We would like to recruit 20% by 2020

and that is what we are aiming for.

At the moment, we are

on target to do that.

But 20% is not 50%, half and half,

men and women, is that enough?

It is not 50% but it is a start

and 20% and we are going to be

looking at other ways that we can

increase that, but we have

got to start somewhere

and it is going to take time.

EasyJet's new male boss has taken

a pay cut to match his female

predecessors' earnings.

But it will take years and a change

in culture and attitudes

to reduce the gender pay gap

across all industries.

In the time that I hope that

I retire, we are going to try

and normalise seeing a woman pilot

or a female pilot, so that

eventually, this will be

a completely normal image.

# Pack up, let's fly away!

But the gender pay gap figures

do not tell us the full story.

An organisation only has to declare

the average difference

between what it pays all its men

and all its women.

Not the hard details.

Such as whether it is paying

the same money to a man and a woman

doing equal work or work

of equal value.

Which begs the question,

does gender pay gap reporting

really solve the problem?

I wish it would solve the problem.

But the simple answer is, no.

It will be an important step

forward, but it is not going to,

for example, force employers

to address the pay difference

once that is reported.

Press office.

One moment, please.

Could you talk to them?

Get me London airport, will you?

The BBC is very different today,

from when virtually all the bosses

and presenters were men.

It's gender pay gap is 9%,

half the national average and half

what its commercial rival,

ITN, has published.

But many BBC women are still angry.

Want do we want?

Equal pay!

When do we want it?

Now!

Hundreds of them came out

on International Women's Day,

to support the principle

of equal pay at the BBC.

One that I agree with.

There was a hero's reception

for Carrie Gracie, who had

taken a dramatic stand,

resigning her post as China editor.

Carrie, Carrie, Carrie, Carrie!

After four years in China,

Carrie Gracie had discovered

she was earning at least 50% less

than two male international editors.

The BBC offered her a pay rise,

she turned it down,

saying she wanted to fight

for the principle of equality.

I would not go to the wall,

just for myself.

I felt I knew by then that the BBC

was not just doing this to me.

They were doing this,

to many, many women.

It was denying their reality.

It was breaking the law in respect

of their employment.

You resigned your post as China

editor, but you didn't leave

the BBC, you have still got

a well-paid job.

Yeah.

People would say you haven't

really made a sacrifice,

you have taken a stand,

but what does it mean?

In a way, they are right.

I haven't made a sacrifice.

I feel that...

This is not yet done.

I may still have to leave the BBC.

Carrie Gracie's colleagues went

to Parliament to support her

when she and BBC management

were summoned there by MPs.

They wanted to know if public money

had been misused in not paying

men and women equally.

They don't trust management.

They have to put their hands

on the table at all times now.

We need full

transparency in the BBC.

Carrie Gracie's case is astonishing.

There are only five international

editors, so how can it be that one

of them gets underpaid for a couple

of years and no one notices?

I think...

This happened because no one

was interested, no one cared.

And they just let it happen.

I do think that it was an oversight.

Absolutely, I do.

And we should have addressed that

case earlier and we admit that.

Why?

Why has this happened?

Why are the women not being paid

the same as the men?

Maxine Mawhinney had just left

the BBC after 20 years when the list

of top earning stars was published.

I do know that I have

sat beside men, on TV,

doing the same job, probably

the same experience or I might have

even been more experienced,

and I know they were earning

more than me.

Did they tell you?

Yes.

Substantially more?

Substantially more.

I think there is a lot of truth

in the fact that women will not push

themselves forward as much.

We will accept more, probably,

rather than putting our hands up,

but that is changing,

Jane, it is really changing.

And women have had enough.

We have really had enough.

There has been no admission that

the BBC has breached equal pay law.

But after the parliamentary hearing,

there were significant

developments, behind the scenes.

I have spoken to half a dozen women

who appear here on air at the BBC,

who claim they haven't been paid

equally to men doing

comparable jobs.

Over the past few weeks,

the BBC has begun to offer these

women what it calls pay revisions.

In other words, more money.

In one case, up to 50% more.

That sounds to me as if it is

admitting they have not been paid

equally in the past.

It is.

I accept that.

That we are admitting

that we did not pay people fairly

or equally in the past,

yes, which is why we are looking

at all those cases that

people are bringing to us,

going back over a number

of months and years

and we will address them all.

That does not necessarily mean

that we are going to agree

with everybody, in every case

that they bring.

When you're in a talent business,

there are many, many reasons

as to why people might be

paid slightly differently.

It was the BBC News presenters

who grabbed the headlines,

but there have been concerns raised

about BBC Sport and now, tennis.

What is at the root of it do

you think, women don't argue

enough for equal pay?

You can argue all you want,

but we know what is at the root,

it is still the good

old boys network.

And, you know, the bottom line

is that male voices are valued more

than women's voices.

People ask where there days...

John has a more central role

in the whole of the BBC's coverage

of Wimbledon and none of this

is around gender.

This is around what is the role

that these people are actually

performing for the tournament.

But he doesn't do ten times as much

as Martina Navratilova.

How can that be justified, then?

That difference?

Because time spent doing the work

is only one factor in what might

determine what you pay people.

Parliament thinks that more

transparency, knowing what people

earn, will deliver equal pay.

And that means forcing the BBC

to reveal all its payments.

To stars like David

Dimbleby and Alan Sugar.

You're fired.

And those on Strictly,

Eastenders and many other shows.

Their fees are confidential,

because they work through

independent production companies.

We would be in the ridiculous

situation, for example,

where the pay of the judges

on Strictly Come Dancing would no

longer be declared and I think

the way to resolve it is to make

the salaries public,

whether they are being paid

directly by the BBC

or through a production company.

If the BBC refuses to do

that and they can do,

because the Charter does not require

them, I think we should ask

the National Audit Office to go

in and to order this and to report

back to Parliament.

The expansion of Netflix,

Amazon, Apple TV...

the BBC is in a big fight here,

for the best ideas, the best talent.

If we are going to really make it

difficult for the independents

to come and work for the BBC,

by subjecting all the people

who work on it, to the same level

of scrutiny that our existing stars

are, then I don't think

that we are going to be producing

the best programmes.

On the current battle over

equal pay, the BBC points

to an independent report,

which found there was no

gender bias in on air pay

decisions at the Corporation.

But that won't protect them

from possible legal action

and potentially big bills.

Do you think the BBC have acted

illegally in your case.

Yes.

Will you take legal action?

That is a very hard question.

Because...

I don't want any money.

The BBC is short of money.

The BBC still has time

to do the right thing.

All I am asking of the BBC

is that it can say that for the four

years that I was China editor,

my work was of equal value

to that of my male peers.

Would you take a case

against the BBC for what you believe

to be an unequal pay situation?

If, as some of my other colleagues

are exploring at the moment,

if I find that I was entitled

to have been paid at a different

rate, during the time

I was there, of course I would.

It is a matter of law.

They are required in law to pay

people the same rate

for jobs of equal value.

What we have seen, I think, so far,

is that the BBC are not doing that.

They have to demonstrate how

they are complying with the law,

how they have settled cases people

have brought to them where they have

been treated unfairly,

and what mechanisms they are going

to put in place to make sure that

people are consistently

paid in the future.

Has the BBC acted illegally

in the case of Carrie Gracie

and the issue of equal pay?

We don't believe we have acted

illegally in regard to equal pay.

That doesn't mean, however,

that there won't be instances

and cases where there is inequality.

And we need to address those.

But if there is inequality, it means

they are not being paid equally

and that is breaking the law.

Well, the law says work of equal

value and we need to judge what that

equal value actually means under

the terms of the law.

In my journey around the country,

I have seen a new spirit

and determination amongst the women

I have met.

We are not little ladies any more.

We do just as much hard work.

What is so special about a man,

that he can earn more

money than a woman?

We need more women,

no matter what it is,

to stand up and be, like,

this isn't all right.

I think they have got away

with it for far too long.

What will you do now

when it comes to Wimbledon?

Will you be asking for more money?

You'd better believe it!

I think I will leave it up

to my agent, who is very capable,

but you shouldn't be paying people

more because they have a really

great agent or because they scream

a lot, you should pay them

because it is the right thing to do.

It is only fair.

With the deadline less

than three weeks away,

more than two thirds

of organisations in Britain have yet

to report their gender pay gap.

There may be more shocking

figures yet to come.

Will it take another 50 years before

a woman can know she has

been paid like a man?

MUSIC: Blondie - 'Atomic'.