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Hello. Welcome to a special Pawb a'i Farn from Scotland's largest city. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:32 | |
In ten days' time Scotland will go to the polls | 0:00:32 | 0:00:36 | |
and answer whether the country should be independent or not. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:39 | |
It is an historic vote. It will also affect the rest of Britain. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:46 | |
Over the next hour, we will discuss independence | 0:00:48 | 0:00:52 | |
and the effect of the result on Scotland and Wales. | 0:00:52 | 0:00:57 | |
We have a studio audience here at the striking BBC centre in Glasgow. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:02 | |
Most people here have made up their minds | 0:01:02 | 0:01:03 | |
but others are still undecided. | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
I'm looking forward to hearing what they've got to say. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:08 | |
And we have a panel. Two in favour of independence and two against. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:13 | |
We have two people from Wales. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:15 | |
Ceri Green, an engineer, and Dr Gwen Jones Edwards, a psychiatrist. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:20 | |
And we have two Pawb A'i Farn favourites, | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
who have travelled up from Wales, Labour's Baroness Eluned Morgan | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
and singer and former Plaid Cymru president, Dafydd Iwan. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:31 | |
Please offer them a warm welcome. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:33 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
Two other things. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
We will have a special overnight programme on the 18th, | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
bringing in all the live results through BBC Radio Cymru and S4C. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
You can also join in this evening on Twitter. | 0:01:56 | 0:02:00 | |
The hashtag is #ReffAlban. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
We are ready to get going. I will be sitting down tonight. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:07 | |
Let's get our first question in Glasgow from Caradog Roberts. | 0:02:07 | 0:02:10 | |
Your question, please. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
Two opinion polls today suggest that the vote will be extremely close. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:19 | |
As the facts are so complex, do the panellists agree | 0:02:19 | 0:02:23 | |
that this will be an emotional vote, | 0:02:23 | 0:02:26 | |
a vote of the heart rather than the head, | 0:02:26 | 0:02:29 | |
on September 18th? | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
Thanks, Caradog. A good question to start our debate. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:36 | |
Two opinion polls today suggest that the vote will be extremely close. | 0:02:36 | 0:02:41 | |
As the facts are so complex, says Caradog, | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
do the panellists agree that this will be an emotional | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
vote on September 18th? Can you start us off, Gwen? | 0:02:48 | 0:02:51 | |
I do not agree, to be honest. The facts are complex. | 0:02:51 | 0:02:57 | |
The people are very passionate and educated on this matter. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:02 | |
Some people have relied on the newspapers. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:07 | |
And if you rely on the newspapers, you will get different story, | 0:03:07 | 0:03:11 | |
especially if you listen to the newspapers in England. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
I think the newspapers in Scotland are closer to the truth. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:18 | |
It has got extremely close over the recent weeks. What has happened? | 0:03:18 | 0:03:25 | |
We have seen these opinion polls today | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
saying there are just two points in it. | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
People are interested. | 0:03:31 | 0:03:34 | |
Until recently, maybe they saw that this vote was sometime | 0:03:34 | 0:03:38 | |
in the future but now it is in just a fortnight, less than a fortnight. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:45 | |
Everyone is interested in this now. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:49 | |
I think the second live TV debate where Alex Salmond did really well | 0:03:49 | 0:03:54 | |
really turned things around. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
Even though some people didn't see it as a factual debate, | 0:03:57 | 0:04:01 | |
I think it was a problem that Darling | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
could not answer the important questions. | 0:04:04 | 0:04:07 | |
That might have had an influence. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:09 | |
What's happened to the No campaign, Ceri? | 0:04:09 | 0:04:12 | |
Yes, the gap has closed over recent weeks. | 0:04:12 | 0:04:20 | |
It's very complex. People are making their minds up. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:26 | |
I think what will happen now is that people will start to get scared | 0:04:26 | 0:04:32 | |
that it may be a Yes vote. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:36 | |
They will start to wonder how much it will cost. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:40 | |
That hasn't happened yet. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
Hasn't the No campaign been negative? | 0:04:43 | 0:04:48 | |
Well, if you are asking people to vote No, it is bound to be negative. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:56 | |
Maybe the question could have been, | 0:04:56 | 0:04:59 | |
would you like to remain a part of Britain? | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
Then we could be the Yes campaign. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:07 | |
I think that people are starting to think of this as a possibility. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:15 | |
And then they will start to think about what it will cost them. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:22 | |
How it will affect families if we go down this route? | 0:05:22 | 0:05:26 | |
We'll discuss that later. Dafydd, will this be an emotional vote? | 0:05:26 | 0:05:33 | |
To an extent. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:35 | |
But thank you for this opportunity to come up to Scotland. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:39 | |
I have an idea in my heart, I will be telling my children | 0:05:39 | 0:05:43 | |
and my children's children that I was there in Glasgow | 0:05:43 | 0:05:47 | |
during the days leading up to the historic Yes vote in Scotland. | 0:05:47 | 0:05:54 | |
-It could go the other way, of course. -No, I am convinced. | 0:05:54 | 0:05:56 | |
What's going to turn this thing around is the motivation | 0:05:56 | 0:06:02 | |
that people have to go out and vote Yes. | 0:06:02 | 0:06:04 | |
They will take this opportunity to start a new, | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
exciting chapter in the history of Scotland. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
I think this is a bigger incentive than, | 0:06:10 | 0:06:14 | |
"I think I'll go and vote in favour of the status quo..." | 0:06:14 | 0:06:18 | |
But there is uncertainty. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
Thousands of people have not made up their minds. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:26 | |
There is uncertainty over the current situation. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
Hardly anyone in Scotland or Wales voted for this coalition. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:36 | |
There is so much uncertainty over part-time jobs for our young people. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:41 | |
There is uncertainty everywhere. | 0:06:41 | 0:06:45 | |
What is important with this referendum is that it is | 0:06:45 | 0:06:49 | |
an opportunity to do something different. | 0:06:49 | 0:06:51 | |
-Is UKIP the answer? Or the referendum? -Thank you very much. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:58 | |
Eluned Morgan. You have been campaigning today. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:02 | |
What's your impression? | 0:07:02 | 0:07:04 | |
I think there is a danger that it will be an emotional vote | 0:07:04 | 0:07:08 | |
and people will wake up the following day and say, | 0:07:08 | 0:07:11 | |
what happened there? | 0:07:11 | 0:07:13 | |
What's wrong with an emotional vote? | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
Let me tell you a story, Ireland in the 1990s, | 0:07:16 | 0:07:20 | |
I went to a folk festival and Dafydd Iwan was performing. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
Everyone was stood on their feet. It was amazing. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:27 | |
I thought, I do not believe a word this man says. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:29 | |
So I sat down. The following day I was thinking, | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
I'm sure a lot of people agreed with me | 0:07:33 | 0:07:36 | |
but they went along with it, swept up in it. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:40 | |
You cannot change your mind the following day. This is forever. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:46 | |
People have to think about this sensibly and understand | 0:07:46 | 0:07:51 | |
that what is important is that as part of Britain is social unity. | 0:07:51 | 0:07:58 | |
We all pay into the best insurance policy in the world. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:04 | |
It looks after you when you're ill, | 0:08:04 | 0:08:06 | |
looks after you if you're unemployed and helps you when you're old. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:11 | |
We will return to that point but the No vote has lost ground. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:15 | |
The gap has closed 20 points in a month. | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
The problem is that I think this emotion is taking over. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:24 | |
I think what we will now see is what happened in Quebec, | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
where it was very close. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:30 | |
People looked over the precipice and thought, | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
we do not want to go there. | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
Do you think that Keir Hardie spoke with the mind or the heart? | 0:08:36 | 0:08:41 | |
He was one of the first leaders of the Labour Party. | 0:08:41 | 0:08:46 | |
He was Scottish and stood in Wales. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:48 | |
He believed in independence for Scotland. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
That was not emotion, it was common sense and the heart together. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
-We live in different world. -Principles don't change, Eluned. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
Hang on. Things have changed. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:01 | |
You disagree and go to the House of Lords. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
We live in a world right now where we need to work together | 0:09:04 | 0:09:09 | |
and we must remember that you cannot take things from the state | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
and expect them to pay for it. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:15 | |
Capitalism is something that we have to live with. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:18 | |
Thanks, Eluned, for now. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
Let's return to the audience. You've all got a lot to say. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:25 | |
Caradog, you asked the question. Why are these facts too complex? | 0:09:25 | 0:09:29 | |
They are complex. We need to look forward as regards the economy. | 0:09:30 | 0:09:38 | |
But no-one knows what will happen. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
Economists are constantly arguing. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
We don't know either way. They are complex arguments. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
Would you accept what Eluned said, | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
that an emotional vote could be dangerous? | 0:09:52 | 0:09:54 | |
Possibly. But what other option is there? | 0:09:58 | 0:10:03 | |
We have no choice. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
And in the back row. Catrin Huws Jones. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
The idea that Britain has the National Insurance. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:18 | |
One of the biggest arguments in the referendum | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
and what's got people mobilised is that National Insurance | 0:10:21 | 0:10:25 | |
is so much stronger in Scotland. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:28 | |
There's the concept behind the NHS and social care and universities, | 0:10:28 | 0:10:34 | |
free student fees and free prescriptions. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
I think a lot of people who don't feel passionately in favour | 0:10:38 | 0:10:43 | |
of an independent Scotland | 0:10:43 | 0:10:46 | |
have been turned by the idea that we would be stronger | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
as an independent country. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:50 | |
I don't think it helps the Union argument, | 0:10:50 | 0:10:54 | |
the idea that we have this National Insurance, | 0:10:54 | 0:10:58 | |
when it's being dismantled by London. | 0:10:58 | 0:11:01 | |
And you think that is what has | 0:11:01 | 0:11:03 | |
attracted Labour voters in particular? | 0:11:03 | 0:11:05 | |
Yes, certainly. | 0:11:05 | 0:11:08 | |
Speaking to people my age, | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
taking an interest in politics for the first time, | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
it has been a fantastically interesting experience. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
-It's been a major talking point. -Thanks, Catrin. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
Keith Bowen. You are likely to vote no. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:24 | |
Yes, the SNP is on fire but there is hardly a No campaign. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:30 | |
If someone argues with the SNP or stands up to them, | 0:11:30 | 0:11:38 | |
they come out with threats. Jim Murphy. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:42 | |
It's a rent-a-mob. People have been following him and egging him. | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
The head of Barrhead Travel has been charged. It's bitter. | 0:11:46 | 0:11:54 | |
We've been saying that it's a passionate debate. Dafydd. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:59 | |
To be fair, that's happened on both sides to some degree. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:03 | |
The thing is, and I'm sure Gwen will agree, | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
this has been a long campaign, it has been a thorough campaign | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
and people have worked very hard to get people to the point | 0:12:10 | 0:12:14 | |
where they have thought for themselves. | 0:12:14 | 0:12:16 | |
Young people are desperate to go out and vote. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:20 | |
They are talking about 80% or 90%. That is great for politics. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:24 | |
Initially, the debates were held in English in London | 0:12:24 | 0:12:28 | |
and broadcast on television. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:31 | |
They were taking it easy. | 0:12:32 | 0:12:34 | |
They were saying, don't leave us! We love you, Scotland! | 0:12:34 | 0:12:38 | |
That is to say, I like Scotland! I like going there on holiday! | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
Don't leave us! The people of Scotland are not leaving anybody. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
What is important is that we have a new partnership | 0:12:45 | 0:12:48 | |
across the British Isles which will be fairer across the nations | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
and the English regions | 0:12:52 | 0:12:53 | |
which will provide a fairer outcome for everyone. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:58 | |
Has it been a bitter debate? | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
Are you worried about the standard of debate? | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
Until a fortnight ago, no. Things have intensified. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:10 | |
Where I come from, the majority are against. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:17 | |
I don't come across as many people who are in favour. | 0:13:17 | 0:13:22 | |
I would if I lived in Glasgow. | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
Let's go back to the audience. Mike Evans. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:29 | |
When I was growing up in the Gwendraeth Valley, | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
it was very emotional to vote for Labour at that time. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:38 | |
One of the differences between the time of Keir Hardie and now | 0:13:38 | 0:13:46 | |
is that something like 100 countries | 0:13:46 | 0:13:49 | |
have become independent during that time. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
Eluned Morgan. Gwen, first. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:56 | |
Speaking about Jim Murphy, if you have seen Jim Murphy speak | 0:13:56 | 0:14:00 | |
during this campaign, he is the rent-a-mob. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
-He is a loathsome man in the way he comes across. -Strong words. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:09 | |
Yes. I have seen enough of him on YouTube. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:14 | |
He attracts that kind of reaction. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:16 | |
I think that is what he is trying to do. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:20 | |
There are plenty of things going on on the other side as well. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:24 | |
Speaking about this emotional vote, | 0:14:24 | 0:14:26 | |
would Scotland be an important addition to the international stage? | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
Would it matter on the international stage? | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
Yes, because Scotland is cosmopolitan country, | 0:14:32 | 0:14:36 | |
a creative country and it has so much to offer the world. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:40 | |
Going back to National Insurance, it's not working in Scotland. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:46 | |
You are here in Glasgow. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:49 | |
One in four men in Glasgow will die before they are 65. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:55 | |
-But will an independent Scotland make any difference? -Yes. -How? | 0:14:55 | 0:15:00 | |
We know that the medical reason is not smoking or drinking, | 0:15:00 | 0:15:04 | |
it is a lack of hope and a lack of choice. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:07 | |
These people have no choice. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
We need to offer them something solid. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
Eluned, you can have the last word on this question. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:20 | |
Scottish debt. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:22 | |
Scotland has spent more than it has raised over the last 20 years. | 0:15:22 | 0:15:26 | |
-You disagree? -Over the last 33 years, | 0:15:26 | 0:15:29 | |
we have made more money in Scotland | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
and given more to Westminster than we have received. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:35 | |
Your figures are completely different to mine. | 0:15:35 | 0:15:39 | |
If it is so expensive, why is London so eager to keep hold of it? | 0:15:39 | 0:15:43 | |
Because we want to keep the United Kingdom. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:48 | |
That's the emotional argument on our side. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
But you could say that to Latvia or Lithuania. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:54 | |
Don't we want a different union between individual countries | 0:15:54 | 0:15:59 | |
that work as partners? | 0:15:59 | 0:16:02 | |
I think the United Kingdom is an old-fashioned notion. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:07 | |
It has failed. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:09 | |
Just a moment. I want to move on. You can end the discussion. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
I saw your hand was up, Einir McDonald. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
Eluned, you said that we are part of the UK's National Insurance, | 0:16:15 | 0:16:21 | |
which includes the NHS, | 0:16:21 | 0:16:25 | |
and now the government is trying to privatise the NHS. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:29 | |
That is not what we want. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:33 | |
That is why a lot of people are changing their minds to vote Yes. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:38 | |
Let's move on. | 0:16:38 | 0:16:41 | |
You'll get a chance to respond, Eluned. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
Let's get our second question. Rhian Noble Jones. Your question, please. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:50 | |
Chancellor George Osborne has today promised more powers for Scotland | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
if there is a No vote. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:56 | |
The First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones, | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
has said Wales would have the same powers. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
Whichever way it goes, what affect will it have on Wales and Britain? | 0:17:03 | 0:17:08 | |
There we are. Thank you very much. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:11 | |
We are here to discuss that question. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:14 | |
The Chancellor has said Scotland will get more powers | 0:17:14 | 0:17:16 | |
if the No vote wins and Carwyn Jones | 0:17:16 | 0:17:19 | |
has said today that the same powers should be offered to Wales. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:23 | |
Whatever the result, there is going to be an effect on Wales | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
and the rest of the UK. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:27 | |
-But what will it be, Eluded Morgan? -It's not going to be a positive one. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:32 | |
I don't understand why Plaid Cymru is helping the Yes vote in Scotland | 0:17:32 | 0:17:38 | |
because it is going to have negative affect on Wales. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
You would not expect them to support the No vote, let's be practical. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:46 | |
I would have thought that Plaid Cymru would be more concerned | 0:17:46 | 0:17:51 | |
about Wales than anything else and they are obviously not. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:55 | |
We are clearly a lot better off in this situation. | 0:17:55 | 0:17:59 | |
We are not calling for independence in Wales | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
so we would continue to be part of what remains of Britain. | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
You have got to remember, | 0:18:06 | 0:18:08 | |
we would have 40 MPs in a Westminster of 550 English MPs. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:14 | |
We are going to have smaller voice. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:16 | |
The fact they are offering federalism, | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
offering something new, more powers, | 0:18:20 | 0:18:23 | |
I think that is good for Wales and I don't think Plaid Cymru | 0:18:23 | 0:18:28 | |
should be here campaigning against it because it would damage Wales. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:33 | |
That is a pretty clear argument. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:35 | |
Independence in Scotland would damage Wales. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:40 | |
A few weeks ago, Plaid Cymru put forward some amendments to the | 0:18:40 | 0:18:45 | |
Wales Act in the House of Commons | 0:18:45 | 0:18:48 | |
to have more borrowing powers to create jobs in Wales, | 0:18:48 | 0:18:51 | |
to have powers over income tax and over natural resources in Wales. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:56 | |
The Labour Party opposed all of those three options. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
Carwyn Jones has got a nerve to say we want the same powers as Scotland | 0:18:59 | 0:19:04 | |
because he has opposed... | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
Carwyn, I am very fond of him, | 0:19:07 | 0:19:10 | |
he says the right things but he does not do the right things. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:13 | |
At the moment, Labour, hand in hand with the Tories, | 0:19:13 | 0:19:17 | |
is preventing more powers from coming to Wales. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
A Yes vote in Scotland will change politics in Wales | 0:19:21 | 0:19:26 | |
and across Britain. | 0:19:26 | 0:19:28 | |
But what about Eluned's idea that Wales will become an afterthought? | 0:19:28 | 0:19:32 | |
That depends on the people of Wales. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:36 | |
This is going to force us to stand on our feet and demand those powers. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:41 | |
We need to demand equality, whether it's a No vote or a Yes vote. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:46 | |
We need to draw confidence from what we see in Scotland. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:51 | |
Are you concerned about the effect on Wales? | 0:19:51 | 0:19:55 | |
They say they are going to come up with some kind of federal system, | 0:19:55 | 0:20:00 | |
which will be interesting. | 0:20:00 | 0:20:02 | |
But I would imagine things are going to change in Wales. | 0:20:03 | 0:20:08 | |
It is a bit late, the day before the referendum! | 0:20:08 | 0:20:11 | |
-Things change. -But as someone who is going to vote against, | 0:20:13 | 0:20:21 | |
-don't you think they have just rushed that forward? -Not really. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
For some time, the three biggest parties have said there will be | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
more powers given to Scotland if there is a No vote. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
But what happens then is that people want to know | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
what kind of changes they will be. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
-Some kind of federalism, apparently. -Rhian, you asked the question. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:44 | |
Are you concerned about this? | 0:20:45 | 0:20:47 | |
I'm not sure. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:49 | |
I would like to say yes in favour of Scotland | 0:20:49 | 0:20:51 | |
but I am concerned about the effect it will have on Wales. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:57 | |
Based on what? The kind of thing Eluned has just said? | 0:20:57 | 0:21:00 | |
I think we will have a weaker Celtic voice in Westminster. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:07 | |
Does anyone else want to contribute? Janet Davies. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:12 | |
You're up from Wales for the night. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:17 | |
If we have a federal system which works, | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
why did David Cameron and George Osborne oppose | 0:21:21 | 0:21:25 | |
posing the question about Devo Max or federalism on the voting card? | 0:21:25 | 0:21:29 | |
Thanks for the question. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
Richard Owen? You're also up from Ceredigion for the night. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:42 | |
As Dafydd said, a good result in Scotland | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
would set an example for Wales. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
It is easy to say but Wales has a weak voice as it is, | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
as Dafydd has demonstrated. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
If the Labour Party is in favour of these powers, | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
why vote against them in the House of Commons? | 0:21:56 | 0:22:00 | |
Why is this offer only coming now, | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
after polls showing that the situation has closed? | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
If they are so keen on powers, why not ask sooner? | 0:22:05 | 0:22:10 | |
Thank you. Margaret Evans? | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
At the moment, I have not decided which way to vote. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:18 | |
But I would like to say, if people in Scotland vote yes, | 0:22:18 | 0:22:23 | |
maybe it will give people in Wales confidence | 0:22:23 | 0:22:26 | |
to see what they can achieve for themselves. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:31 | |
At the moment, we do have a weaker voice, | 0:22:31 | 0:22:36 | |
but if we had more confidence, | 0:22:36 | 0:22:38 | |
we could get stronger and show what we want. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:44 | |
-You think Wales would be inspired by a yes vote? -Yes. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:51 | |
At the back. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:55 | |
Are you concerned about Wales' future? | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
Not Wales. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
I am worried about Wales, of course, but I think about Yorkshire | 0:23:01 | 0:23:05 | |
and London. | 0:23:05 | 0:23:07 | |
Does that mean federalism is going to be an advantage to them? | 0:23:07 | 0:23:12 | |
Are we all going to be little pawns? | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
I don't like the sound of it. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:20 | |
I think Wales is too small, too weak, | 0:23:20 | 0:23:26 | |
is not rich enough to have the same as Scotland. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:34 | |
Eluded Morgan answers some of those points. | 0:23:42 | 0:23:46 | |
What is good about this discussion is that we are finally having | 0:23:46 | 0:23:51 | |
the discussion we should have been having a long time ago. | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
London has taken far too many powers. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:57 | |
Far too much is centralised in London | 0:23:57 | 0:24:00 | |
and people have finally realised that. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:04 | |
In terms of the discussion, this referendum is a good thing. | 0:24:04 | 0:24:08 | |
But I do think that we are completely different to Scotland. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:13 | |
We are a lot poorer. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:14 | |
If you want to start having separate income tax, we would lose out. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:20 | |
We do not raise enough income tax in our country. | 0:24:20 | 0:24:25 | |
Only around 6,000 people in Wales pay the top level. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:32 | |
6,000! | 0:24:32 | 0:24:36 | |
That is not the same as in Scotland. It is completely different. | 0:24:36 | 0:24:42 | |
That is why this insurance policy, we have got to come together. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:47 | |
We need an insurance policy with 60 million people share | 0:24:47 | 0:24:51 | |
the burden rather than five million before in Scotland or 3 million | 0:24:51 | 0:24:55 | |
people in Wales. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:57 | |
But are we still stronger together if Scotland is independent? | 0:24:57 | 0:24:59 | |
We would be because we are still financially | 0:24:59 | 0:25:02 | |
reliant on people in England and Scotland helping us. | 0:25:02 | 0:25:07 | |
We started the Industrial Revolution, | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
we have brought our share of wealth, | 0:25:10 | 0:25:15 | |
but at the moment the economy in Wales needs | 0:25:15 | 0:25:20 | |
to grow a lot stronger before we even start talking | 0:25:20 | 0:25:22 | |
about independence. | 0:25:22 | 0:25:24 | |
A million people in Scotland live in poverty | 0:25:24 | 0:25:29 | |
and 100,000 children are in poverty. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:35 | |
But is that down to the UK Government? | 0:25:35 | 0:25:39 | |
Is there any evidence that it would change? | 0:25:39 | 0:25:43 | |
The power over fracking was taken away from Hollyrood | 0:25:43 | 0:25:47 | |
so it is going to happen in Scotland | 0:25:47 | 0:25:54 | |
and many people are not going to be happy about that at all. | 0:25:54 | 0:26:03 | |
Dafydd Iwan, on this point, | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
is poverty in Scotland a bad reflection on the country? | 0:26:07 | 0:26:16 | |
It should inspire you. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:28 | |
No-one thought ten years ago we would have a | 0:26:28 | 0:26:31 | |
referendum on independence now. | 0:26:31 | 0:26:33 | |
It is an ongoing process. | 0:26:33 | 0:26:36 | |
I am very disappointed to hear someone say Wales has | 0:26:36 | 0:26:40 | |
contributed a little bit. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:42 | |
Wales has been pillaged for its water, | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
its coal and many other resources. | 0:26:45 | 0:26:51 | |
It is time for us to realise that we have wealth. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:56 | |
A victory in Scotland would inspire Wales for years to come. | 0:26:56 | 0:27:04 | |
You have got to leave the House of Lords | 0:27:06 | 0:27:08 | |
and come back to the people. | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
This is important. | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
This is inopportunity for us to scrap the House of Lords | 0:27:14 | 0:27:19 | |
and have a federal system where if there representation. | 0:27:19 | 0:27:24 | |
It's as important in England. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:32 | |
I am going to stop you there. We must take a break. | 0:27:32 | 0:27:40 | |
Welcome back to a special edition of Pawb a'i Farn. | 0:28:02 | 0:28:07 | |
We are in Scotland discussing the Scottish referendum. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:12 | |
We have had two questions, let's move on to the third question. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:17 | |
The uncertainty over an independent Scotland's economic situation | 0:28:17 | 0:28:22 | |
is a cause of concern for many. | 0:28:22 | 0:28:24 | |
Should we be worried about our savings, our pensions and the pound? | 0:28:24 | 0:28:30 | |
The uncertainty over | 0:28:30 | 0:28:32 | |
an independent's Scotland's economic situation | 0:28:32 | 0:28:36 | |
is a cause of concern for many. | 0:28:36 | 0:28:39 | |
Should we be worried about our savings and pensions? | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
This could be the crux of the matter for many people. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:46 | |
It is all about the savings, our pensions and the pound? | 0:28:46 | 0:28:54 | |
Money in your pocket. How do you respond to that question? | 0:28:54 | 0:28:59 | |
Is this central to the economy? | 0:28:59 | 0:29:04 | |
I think it will open a Pandora's box of uncertainty. | 0:29:04 | 0:29:10 | |
The cost of interest rates will go up regularly. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:16 | |
I think borrowing will become more expensive. | 0:29:16 | 0:29:21 | |
Money is already going down to the south. | 0:29:21 | 0:29:29 | |
There was an article in the Daily Mail today saying that | 0:29:30 | 0:29:34 | |
pensions were going down to London from Scotland. | 0:29:34 | 0:29:40 | |
I do not think that the economic figures being put | 0:29:40 | 0:29:48 | |
forward by the SNP. | 0:29:48 | 0:29:51 | |
You are convinced that Scotland will be poorer. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:57 | |
People mention the North Sea oil and gas. | 0:29:57 | 0:30:05 | |
But there is only so much remaining. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:10 | |
There will be other costs. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:12 | |
I think there will be less money available for things | 0:30:12 | 0:30:20 | |
like social services, and so on. | 0:30:20 | 0:30:25 | |
Is this the big important matter? | 0:30:25 | 0:30:28 | |
I think so and people are worried about it | 0:30:28 | 0:30:31 | |
but I don't agree with Ceri at all. | 0:30:31 | 0:30:34 | |
Scotland is a rich country. | 0:30:34 | 0:30:38 | |
We don't even have to come the North Sea oil and gas. | 0:30:38 | 0:30:47 | |
And there is a lot of that remaining. | 0:30:47 | 0:30:51 | |
That will sustain as for a long time. | 0:30:51 | 0:30:54 | |
But you have been saying about poverty. | 0:30:54 | 0:31:00 | |
Where is the evidence it is a rich country? | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
It is a rich country because it makes a lot of money. | 0:31:03 | 0:31:09 | |
All of the money goes to Westminster. | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
We are given pocket money. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
Scotland receives more than Wales but it pays in more by a long way. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:20 | |
Pensions will be safe. | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
We know that public pensions in Scotland have run well. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:31 | |
What about this concern | 0:31:33 | 0:31:35 | |
that pensions will be going to the south-east. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:42 | |
Big businesses deciding to go down to London. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:47 | |
These companies will return. | 0:31:47 | 0:31:50 | |
When people move their money down to the banks in England, | 0:31:50 | 0:31:58 | |
it is the same bank really. | 0:31:58 | 0:32:01 | |
If you invest your money in The Royal Bank of Scotland, | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
most of it is NatWest. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:07 | |
It did not go well for The Royal Bank of Scotland. | 0:32:07 | 0:32:14 | |
Let's discuss the economy. How would you answer your own question? | 0:32:14 | 0:32:19 | |
I think that uncertainty is the big thing. | 0:32:19 | 0:32:23 | |
I do not think that all the facts are being put forward. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:32 | |
The Yes vote does not convince me | 0:32:32 | 0:32:36 | |
that things will be all right as regards pensions and savings. | 0:32:36 | 0:32:44 | |
Are you worried about the future of the pound? | 0:32:44 | 0:32:48 | |
It would be good if we knew for certain what would be happening. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:55 | |
What about Margaret next to you? | 0:32:55 | 0:33:00 | |
Are you worried about the economy? | 0:33:00 | 0:33:04 | |
Yes, but I think that they cannot stop issuing the pound. | 0:33:04 | 0:33:10 | |
The Westminster Government does not represent the people of Scotland. | 0:33:10 | 0:33:16 | |
I think this is a great opportunity. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:26 | |
Jack Williams? | 0:33:26 | 0:33:28 | |
In principle, I am in favour of the idea of independence. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:32 | |
But there is so much uncertainty | 0:33:32 | 0:33:36 | |
and it makes very difficult to know which way to vote. | 0:33:36 | 0:33:42 | |
There is a hand up in the back row. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:48 | |
Where will they get the money? | 0:33:48 | 0:33:55 | |
I would like to know and no-one can give me an answer, | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
what about these children in poverty, where have they come from? | 0:34:00 | 0:34:04 | |
If the money has been in Scotland, why hasn't anyone | 0:34:04 | 0:34:08 | |
done anything about it sooner? | 0:34:08 | 0:34:10 | |
Why are they in poverty right now? | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
Because the money does not remain in Scotland. | 0:34:13 | 0:34:17 | |
The money goes to Westminster and we are given money back. | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
There is no way in Scotland | 0:34:21 | 0:34:23 | |
because of the tax system to start up | 0:34:23 | 0:34:28 | |
new jobs, new industry - the industry has gone. | 0:34:28 | 0:34:33 | |
The ship-building industry has gone. | 0:34:33 | 0:34:36 | |
They are talking about creating all these jobs, | 0:34:36 | 0:34:43 | |
they will create all these jobs after the 18th of September. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:48 | |
No, it will take time. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:52 | |
It is not gone to be easy and it will take time. | 0:34:52 | 0:34:56 | |
But at least we will have control. | 0:34:56 | 0:34:58 | |
At the moment we do not have control. | 0:34:58 | 0:35:04 | |
Can I just mention this uncertainty? | 0:35:04 | 0:35:07 | |
It is getting on my nerves, to be honest. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:11 | |
I have lived through the double dip and the recent credit crunch | 0:35:11 | 0:35:15 | |
and I'm not that confident with the current system. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:20 | |
It is laughable that we are talking about this uncertainty. | 0:35:20 | 0:35:26 | |
The current system obviously does not work. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:29 | |
Independence will shake things up. | 0:35:29 | 0:35:35 | |
That is what needs to happen. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:39 | |
And in the front row? | 0:35:39 | 0:35:43 | |
I would like to say that we do not get the government that we | 0:35:43 | 0:35:46 | |
vote for in Scotland. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:48 | |
Maybe that is why it is such a mess. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:52 | |
It is impossible to look into the future and predict it but in looking | 0:35:52 | 0:35:58 | |
to the past, where has the money from the oil gone? | 0:35:58 | 0:36:02 | |
We are talking about half a trillion. | 0:36:02 | 0:36:06 | |
I'm talking about a trillion, | 0:36:06 | 0:36:08 | |
the UK debt right now is over trillion. | 0:36:08 | 0:36:12 | |
And the interest we are paying on this money is one million. | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
We are paying that interest every week. | 0:36:19 | 0:36:23 | |
We're in a terrible mess. | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
We have no choice. | 0:36:26 | 0:36:31 | |
I would say, there is nothing more uncertain than | 0:36:31 | 0:36:36 | |
having your economy run from the capital of another country. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:43 | |
The British economy is run for the benefit of a small part of England. | 0:36:43 | 0:36:51 | |
Forget about pension rates and so on, there is | 0:36:51 | 0:36:56 | |
nothing more uncertain than this situation. | 0:36:56 | 0:37:00 | |
Where has all this money gone? | 0:37:00 | 0:37:08 | |
It went to Westminster and Margaret Thatcher. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:12 | |
It went towards keeping the country going. | 0:37:12 | 0:37:14 | |
We have not used it as Norway has used their money. | 0:37:14 | 0:37:21 | |
So Alex Salmond is right? | 0:37:21 | 0:37:23 | |
No. It is different. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:27 | |
Scotland has lost their ship-building industry. | 0:37:27 | 0:37:34 | |
The Norwegians have done it. | 0:37:34 | 0:37:37 | |
The unions in Scotland have killed it all. | 0:37:37 | 0:37:41 | |
Eluned Morgan? | 0:37:41 | 0:37:44 | |
Money is important to everyone. | 0:37:44 | 0:37:48 | |
That is what decides whether you have jobs. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:55 | |
800,000 jobs on the financial sector are in Scotland. | 0:37:55 | 0:38:03 | |
95% of the people with savings in RBS for example live in England. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:12 | |
I am certain this will happen. | 0:38:12 | 0:38:16 | |
It needs to be where the customers are. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:22 | |
They will want regulation from somewhere in England. | 0:38:22 | 0:38:27 | |
So it is likely that those jobs will go. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:32 | |
There will be fewer jobs. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:36 | |
And it will affect Wales. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:39 | |
I think that this will affect the financial markets tomorrow. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:46 | |
No-one was expecting this to be quite so close. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:49 | |
It could push us back into recession. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:54 | |
As a prominent Welsh Labour member, | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
are you happy with the attitude in Westminster regarding the pound? | 0:38:57 | 0:39:05 | |
I don't want to provide another bailout, | 0:39:05 | 0:39:10 | |
£46 billion we have paid to help RBS. | 0:39:10 | 0:39:15 | |
If they are and independent country, I don't what to take that burden | 0:39:15 | 0:39:22 | |
and have to make cuts in our hospitals. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
So your message is, they are not having the pound. | 0:39:25 | 0:39:31 | |
They can use it but they won't have the right to influence | 0:39:31 | 0:39:34 | |
the bank of England. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:43 | |
The money to save these banks came from America. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:49 | |
We are paying a price in Wales because of the mess the banks made. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:54 | |
We have made cuts in our schools and hospitals. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:58 | |
The audience has made the point very well. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:02 | |
Where is the certainty now? | 0:40:02 | 0:40:04 | |
How many people have lost their savings? | 0:40:04 | 0:40:06 | |
How many people are seeing their parents' | 0:40:06 | 0:40:09 | |
savings disappearing to pay for their care | 0:40:09 | 0:40:13 | |
when they are elderly? | 0:40:13 | 0:40:20 | |
The record of small countries in Europe... | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
Like Iceland? They have done really well! | 0:40:23 | 0:40:26 | |
The record of smaller countries is far better. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:31 | |
Greece and Spain have struggled. | 0:40:31 | 0:40:35 | |
If Catalonia was independent... | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
There is no certainty. | 0:40:39 | 0:40:42 | |
We need to focus on the needs of our people. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:47 | |
We need to forget about spending millions on Trident. | 0:40:47 | 0:40:52 | |
It is time for another break. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:56 | |
Join us again in two minutes. | 0:40:56 | 0:40:59 | |
Welcome back. | 0:41:14 | 0:41:16 | |
It is nice to have your company for this special | 0:41:16 | 0:41:19 | |
edition of the programme. | 0:41:19 | 0:41:21 | |
We are discussing the referendum | 0:41:21 | 0:41:23 | |
which is taking place on September 18. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:28 | |
I think this will be our last question tonight. | 0:41:28 | 0:41:31 | |
Richard Owen from Aberystwyth is campaigning for the Yes vote. | 0:41:31 | 0:41:36 | |
Wouldn't independence for Scotland be an opportunity for Scotland | 0:41:36 | 0:41:42 | |
and Britain to get rid of nuclear weapons? | 0:41:42 | 0:41:45 | |
That is the question. | 0:41:45 | 0:41:50 | |
I am going to start with you, Dafydd Iwan. | 0:41:50 | 0:41:55 | |
One of the most important things that has happened during this debate, | 0:41:55 | 0:42:01 | |
and it has been a long campaign, | 0:42:01 | 0:42:04 | |
is that people have been drawn into the discussion. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:07 | |
Young and old. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:09 | |
They are discussing things we don't get an opportunity to discuss. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:14 | |
Was there ever a discussion on Trident? No. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:16 | |
It creates jobs so it is there. | 0:42:16 | 0:42:18 | |
We are spending billions of pounds on keeping a weapons system, | 0:42:18 | 0:42:28 | |
which if we did use them, would be the end of the world. | 0:42:28 | 0:42:32 | |
It is crazy to base an economy on such dangerous weapons. | 0:42:32 | 0:42:36 | |
We know there is a threat from these terrorists but Trident is no good. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:44 | |
Wouldn't it be even more dangerous if we did not have Trident? | 0:42:46 | 0:42:51 | |
It doesn't protect anyone from terrorism. | 0:42:51 | 0:42:54 | |
The only good thing about this campaign is that people can | 0:42:54 | 0:42:58 | |
have their say. | 0:42:58 | 0:43:00 | |
On Twitter, you can see what ordinary people have to say. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:04 | |
In an independent Scotland, you don't have to enter wars. | 0:43:04 | 0:43:11 | |
We went into Iraq, killed thousands of people, | 0:43:11 | 0:43:18 | |
and we did not believe in the campaign. | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
We can avoid that in future. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:23 | |
Independence would be worth it for that alone. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:26 | |
We need to get rid of Trident | 0:43:26 | 0:43:28 | |
and build an economy based on things that make sense. | 0:43:28 | 0:43:33 | |
Ceri, you live pretty close to the centre were Trident is kept. | 0:43:33 | 0:43:38 | |
This is of great importance to that area. | 0:43:38 | 0:43:42 | |
In terms of jobs, yes. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:45 | |
It is the jobs which provides the most industrial jobs | 0:43:45 | 0:43:49 | |
anywhere in Scotland. | 0:43:49 | 0:43:51 | |
It will be very important. | 0:43:51 | 0:43:55 | |
But on the other hand, thinking about this idea, | 0:43:55 | 0:43:59 | |
then say they want to be a member of NATO. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:04 | |
A crucial part of NATO's strategy is to have Trident. | 0:44:04 | 0:44:11 | |
I don't see why they want to be a member and want to have that | 0:44:11 | 0:44:17 | |
umbrella which is provided by Trident | 0:44:17 | 0:44:20 | |
and then to get rid of it. | 0:44:20 | 0:44:24 | |
It is hypocritical. | 0:44:24 | 0:44:28 | |
Being a member of a body like NATO enables you to | 0:44:28 | 0:44:33 | |
influence their policies. | 0:44:33 | 0:44:34 | |
The discussion over Trident has never been had. | 0:44:34 | 0:44:39 | |
Have you ever had an opportunity to give an opinion on Trident? | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
This is your opportunity. | 0:44:42 | 0:44:46 | |
You are not going to get much enthusiasm out of me on Trident. | 0:44:46 | 0:44:50 | |
Carwyn Jones said it should come to Milford Haven. | 0:44:50 | 0:44:55 | |
You have got to realise that if you are an independent country, | 0:44:55 | 0:44:59 | |
you need an army, a Navy, | 0:44:59 | 0:45:04 | |
an air force. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:07 | |
Alex Salmond has said that is going to happen. You need your own BBC. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:10 | |
There will be major cuts in the BBC if 10% is cut | 0:45:10 | 0:45:15 | |
because it is going to Scotland. | 0:45:15 | 0:45:18 | |
It would not be the BBC. | 0:45:18 | 0:45:21 | |
Let's stick to nuclear weapons. | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
It's important because terrorism is a real problem. | 0:45:24 | 0:45:27 | |
We have seen that in Cardiff. | 0:45:28 | 0:45:30 | |
Some of the people who have gone to Syria are from Cardiff. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
Terrorism is a major problem and we have to make sure | 0:45:33 | 0:45:36 | |
people do not come back and start attacking us on our own soil. | 0:45:36 | 0:45:41 | |
-Is Trident going to stop them? -No, but... | 0:45:41 | 0:45:45 | |
But wouldn't getting rid of Trident put this all-in danger? | 0:45:45 | 0:45:49 | |
Not at all. | 0:45:52 | 0:45:55 | |
The majority of countries which are part of NATO do not have | 0:45:55 | 0:46:00 | |
something like Trident. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:02 | |
I think Iceland and Greenland, for example. | 0:46:02 | 0:46:06 | |
But in terms of defence, | 0:46:06 | 0:46:11 | |
Trident does not defend as at all. | 0:46:11 | 0:46:14 | |
It has had no effect on the wars | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
in Iraq, Gaza, Afghanistan. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:21 | |
And it does not create employment of substance. | 0:46:21 | 0:46:30 | |
Only 500 workers work on the nuclear side of it. | 0:46:30 | 0:46:34 | |
So you want to see those submarines moving to England or Wales? | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
I want them to disappear. | 0:46:37 | 0:46:39 | |
Every job costs £600,000 a year to maintain. | 0:46:39 | 0:46:45 | |
You could pay people that much to do nothing. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:49 | |
We don't have to build nuclear weapons. | 0:46:49 | 0:46:51 | |
Richard, you asked the question. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
They are saying that weapons to replace Trident | 0:46:56 | 0:47:01 | |
would cost £100 billion. | 0:47:01 | 0:47:05 | |
After 15 years, it will be a lot more than that. | 0:47:05 | 0:47:10 | |
They are very expensive. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:15 | |
And you can't use them. | 0:47:15 | 0:47:17 | |
Mike Evans, will you be voting to get rid of nuclear weapons? | 0:47:17 | 0:47:21 | |
Not specifically. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:23 | |
Turning to defence, one or two members of the panel have said | 0:47:23 | 0:47:30 | |
that Scotland is too small to defend itself. | 0:47:30 | 0:47:34 | |
How do Denmark, Norway and Finland, Belgium, | 0:47:34 | 0:47:42 | |
Austria done it for so long? | 0:47:42 | 0:47:45 | |
Most countries in the world are small. | 0:47:45 | 0:47:51 | |
Some of them have problems, but the majority don't. | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
What is the problem for Scotland because it is small? | 0:47:55 | 0:47:59 | |
Why is defence going to be a problem? We have model in Denmark. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:05 | |
Wouldn't Scotland be safer if it got rid of Trident? | 0:48:05 | 0:48:12 | |
I'm going to move forward. | 0:48:12 | 0:48:14 | |
I am going to ask you all to use your imagination. | 0:48:14 | 0:48:18 | |
What will you be doing on the morning of the referendum, | 0:48:18 | 0:48:21 | |
19th of September? | 0:48:21 | 0:48:24 | |
Congratulating the people of Scotland for voting yes. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:32 | |
A sigh of relief, thinking, that was close! | 0:48:32 | 0:48:40 | |
I would sit down with the Labour team in Wales | 0:48:40 | 0:48:45 | |
to make sure that Wales' voice will be strong | 0:48:45 | 0:48:47 | |
when we discuss where we go next. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
I agree. | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
I will be celebrating victory for common sense in Scotland | 0:48:53 | 0:48:57 | |
and then planning for the future of Wales. | 0:48:57 | 0:49:04 | |
Thank you. Remember our programme on September 18. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:06 | |
For now, goodbye. | 0:49:06 | 0:49:08 |