06/12/2012 Pawb a'i Farn

Tonight's panel - journalist Bethan Jones Parry.

Guto Bebb, Conservative MP for Conwy.

Plaid Cymru Assembly member and former Heritage minister Alun Ffred Jones,

and President of the Welsh Lib Dems President Christine Humphreys.

Please welcome them.

Good evening and welcome to Pawb a'i Farn.

On a cold December night we have an hour to set things to

right in Colwyn Leisure Centre, Parc Eirias, Colwyn Bay.

We're about 100 yards from the sea, with some locals in the audience,

as well as people from villages a little further afield.

After a week of floods and the Chancellor's statement,

there's no shortage of topics, If you want to respond to our discussion in any way,

the usual addresses are at the bottom of the screen, and you're

welcome to contact us if you want to join us in Ystradgynlais next week.

That's the last programme before Christmas,

but tonight we're in Colwyn Bay.

Our first question comes from Llyr ap Glyn.

The Chancellor says the economic crisis won't come to an end

for years, in his statement yesterday.

Are the panellists confident that he's on the right track?

A timely question from Llyr.

The economic crisis won't be over for years,

according do the Chancellor's statement yesterday.

Are the panellists confident he's on the right track? Alun Ffred Jones.

No.

We can measure his successes

and failures according to his own yardstick.

He said this crisis would last five years.

Earlier this year he said he needed two more years to balance the books.

Yesterday he said he needed an extra year. He's already behind.

He also said the economy would grow 3% this year.

A year ago, he said that would come down to below 1%.

Yesterday he admitted that the economy had receded during the year.

So by his own admission, he's failed.

Another disappointment in yesterday's statement -

there was no reference at all to Wales.

One of the things we've talked about and which

we consider very important, and by now may economists agree,

we need to invest in financial schemes in order to turn the economy

around, bring work to companies, new hope for workers, and so on.

There was money for finance.

Yes, things have started to turn,

but it's a small sum in the context of the years.

There was no mention of borrowing rights for the Welsh Government,

because we've been saying - not me,

but people who understand markets, have been saying regularly

that you have to invest heavily in these next few years in order

to counteract the fact that the economies of Britain

and Europe are so poor.

So no mention of that - another disappointment.

Right. Guto Bebb?

It was certainly not the kind of statement you'd have hoped for,

two years into the present government.

Yet he sounded quite confident himself.

It's crucial that we consider the context.

When the coalition government came to power and when the schemes

were set up, we didn't expect the Euro to have done so terribly poorly.

And again in context, the figures show that it's expected that the

British economy will grow faster than France and Germany, even.

So in that context, we have to put it in context.

But the economy in Britain hasn't grown faster than France and Germany.

No, I said the forecast.

I didn't say it had happened yet.

But if we consider the British economy with most European

economies, it's been remarkably positive in comparison - for example,

we've got more people reworking in Britain now than ever before.

People said that when this government came to power, the cuts would

lead to unemployment all over the country.

But we've seen more jobs in the private sector. So in that...

Many of them part-time.

Well, that's one of the most foolish accusations I hear from politicians.

You're saying that a part-time job has no value.

People appreciate a chance to contribute to the family

income through part-time jobs,

and politicians who say that are very irresponsible, I think.

We should welcome any jobs.

The evidence shows that having a part-time job often leads to

developing your career.

Suggesting otherwise...

No, you have to be careful, saying you're creating jobs.

Half those new jobs are part-time, that's all I'm saying.

And we're suggesting that creating jobs is a failure?

The point is, they're not as good as full-time jobs.

That's incredible.

We often hear parties like Plaid Cymru

and Labour say they want part-time jobs,

to give people a chance to have a balance between working and looking

after a family, but when those jobs are created, they condemn it.

There's an element here of wanting their cake and eating it.

We've had a budget that shows there is a way forward,

there is a chance to tackle the debt...

despite the lack of growth this year.

It's hard to be positive, when as Alun Ffred has said,

the economy is receding.

But in context of this difficult situation that we're facing,

there are things that we should take seriously in this budget,

for instance, since the coalition government was formed,

anyone who earns the minimum wage will have seen

their income tax being halved,

so that there's an extra £50 in their pockets.

That kind of action while we're in such a financial difficulty,

is to be welcomed.

You can come back shortly. Bethan Jones Parry.

There are several points arising.

Can I say that I agree with Alun Ffred about the part-time jobs.

I'm sorry, Guto,

but I feel that there are many big companies who come

and brag that they're creating jobs - many supermarkets,

and so on - they will offer jobs part-time, because they don't

want the financial burden

and the responsibilities of offering full-time jobs, and I feel that

many families, while it's great that they have jobs,

but it's not work that will give them a full wage,

so that they can support themselves.

What about Guto's point, that it could lead to more?

In depressed areas -

if I can relate your question to my answer to

the question asked by Llyr,

I don't feel that people are confident to be enterprising,

to invest - I don't think people feel,

as Christmas approaches,

that society is fearful,

and because of that, I believe it would be much wiser

for the Chancellor and for the coalition government,

to look at the effect of what is happening,

and its effect on the spirits of society as it stands.

Because it doesn't matter how much you increase income tax rates,

if people are afraid to invest and to spend,

they're going to be live in economic fear, and it won't help the economy.

Over to the other side of the coalition

we have Christine Humphreys.

It's obvious, the people of Britain and Wales aren't stupid.

They understand what's going on in Europe, even in china.

The economy's going down a little in China.

We're living in a world where there are problems.

When the coalition came in, we were a trillion pounds in debt.

That's gone down a little.

Well, the debt hasn't gone down, but we've tackled the economy.

But for how long can you carry on to blame what

happened during the term of another government?

I don't blame what happened, just saying that there is

a situation where we were in terrible debt, and we're still in debt.

The situation is just as bad, isn't it?

Yes, but I'm not going to take lessons from the Labour party,

either, because when you hear Ed Balls talking, he has no answers.

What would happen in this country if Ed Balls took George Osborne's job?

We'd be in an even worse situation, because he doesn't have any answers.

That's not much comfort!

No, but the problem is, there is a problem in the economic world,

and we have to live...

But some countries seem to be changing direction.

But Dewi, the papers have been full of threats recently that

Britain is about to lose this AAA rating that is so important.

And which is so important also to George Osborne.

So isn't that a criticism of the economic direction that the

Chancellor is following?

-Answer that, Guto.

-America has lost it. So has France.

That shows this government is doing something right, that we

haven't lost it.

I said we were about to lose it.

It hasn't happened yet.

It still puts it in the context of what's happened in other countries.

Countries like Spain - I can borrow better than Spain can borrow,

and that says a lot!

The truth is that we've heard there's no hope.

Does it matter if we lose this? This rate?

What's come from America and France is that since they've lost

that rate, they can still borrow cheaper than they could before.

So there is a question of its importance.

But regarding confidence, I have to make this point.

More new businesses have been established in these last few years than happened before,

and similarly, the point about investment is crucial.

That's why we've raised capital allowances for small business

from £25,000 a year to £250,000 a year, to encourage people to invest.

All I can say is that most economists by now -

and the IMF accepts this -

that starving the patient just does more harm than good.

So they're in favour of investment, particularly in capital schemes,

and that's one of the things we've been preaching for two years...

-But they are going to invest.

-It's £5 billion. It sounds a lot, but it isn't compared to the cuts.

-But where's the money going to come from?

-Exactly.

When the coalition government came in,

there was a note from Liam Byrne, Chief Secretary to the Treasury,

saying there is no money left.

So if you are going to invest,

where are you going to find the money to invest?

The IMF now accepts that at times like this,

you have to invest in order to boost confidence.

So the argument is - we're being condemned for increasing debt,

but we're supposed to increase the debt even more!

That's what Plaid Cymru are saying! It's a ridiculous argument.

No, it isn't. If the IMF is ridiculous...

The IMF has gone into underprivileged countries

and they've made even greater cuts than this, even.

What's happening in the European Community...

They realise their mistake.

Too much recession is harmful and at some point,

you have to start to invest.

You need confidence to invest.

That's what happened in the Depression in America -

investment and getting people aback to work.

The economy turned around.

Anyone who suggests that the international economy

we have now compares with the American

economy in the '30s shows that he doesn't understand economics.

I'm not the only one who says that.

Many economists now say that you can't go ahead...

That's why the money markets have such confidence in economies

like France, after the Socialists came into power.

The four of you can have a break. Let's turn to the audience.

You see how the country is in such a state.

We've got two politicians on the panel and they don't agree,

so what chance do we have?

Don't you like to see a bit disagreement?

None of them are coming out with sensible ideas. That's the trouble.

The problem with investment, if you go back to the time

when European money came to Ireland, or

when Objective One came to north Wales, where did that money go?

It was ruined.

When you talk about investment, you have to have a proper scheme,

not just throwing money at something.

You have to decide what to do. Look at Ireland.

The houses that were built, the roads that were built,

and look at the state they're in now.

You're talking nonsense, until you come up with a plan.

That's from London, and from Cardiff.

You're not looking at it properly;.

It doesn't look like you have confidence in politicians from any party.

No, because I've been a politician myself on a local council,

and I've no faith in myself!

LAUGHTER

Gwyn Evans, the small businesses man in the north?

I completely agree that we've wasted Objective One.

We're doing the same with the conversion fund now,

and we're looking for a load more money.

Even Liverpool did it twice. We need three or four times.

What was wrong with what George Osborne said

yesterday from your point of view?

I thought in a way he was on the right track, giving businesses

an incentive to start, and to small businesses - because they say

that's it's small businesses who will get us out of this mess.

If you go back to the Assembly,

at one time we were top of the list, attracting businesses to Wales.

Now, we're second from the bottom in Europe, trying attract businesses.

-The whole of Wales?

-The Assembly got rid of the WDA, for a start.

That's going back several years.

-It's done Wales a lot of damage.

-That was a mistake. Come on, please.

We're in this crisis because the banks have been lending

too much money for the public to buy houses and so on.

Now, the Assembly are saying they're going to borrow millions to

spend on the Heads-of-the-valley road and so on,

How will they pay it back? Winning the lottery?

It's the kind of capital expenditure we were talking about.

We need to improve our roads, don't we?

Yes, but how are they going to repay it?

Why not build them as and when they and afford them?

Goronwy Edwards?

A lot of small businesses are willing to take risks.

But the banks are unwilling to lend them money. That's the problem.

A lot of people have ideas and want to develop businesses

but they can't get the money.

Marc Jones?

I think Alun Ffred's right. We need to invest.

He's suggested in the past when we've been in this mess -

this is what successful go governments have done.

They've invested themselves out of a hole.

And the countries that are successful today have invested.

They talk of household economics.

If a husband and wife lost one job,

the first thing they do is not go out to raise a mortgage,

but go out and try to get more money in.

Thanks, Marc. Gareth Wyn Jones?

Red tape with small businesses needs to be stopped.

There's too much paperwork

and too many people telling small businesses what to do.

If you want to encourage them, they need to be helped in that way.

A sentence each from the politicians, to take us

to the break.

I agree with that point.

That's why we've moved from a situation of one in, one out,

to a situation where we're saying, one rule in, two out -

and we have to simplify the situation,

so that people can invest in their businesses.

I still say, in a very difficult international situation,

I wouldn't deny that - you still have to invest in capital schemes

so that businesses have work, and to give people hope young people.

So more lending, then. Well, after 20 minutes' discussion,

we're not going to agree on that, but thank you for that.

Next, we'll be talking about the floods which have hit

this region particularly hard during the last few weeks.

Join us again after the break.

Welcome back to Colwyn Bay to Pawb A'i Farn.

Our next question about the flooding is from Gwyn Williams.

Does the panel agree that much more needs to be done to prevent

floods in future?

Thanks, Gwyn.

Does the panel agree that much more needs to be done to prevent

floods in future?

I look forward to hearing what happened to you in these parts.

-Let's start with you, Bethan, as you had a difficult experience.

-Yes.

We had floods in the house - carpets and everything ruined.

But in context, about two days later I was in St Asaph,

and it was nothing compared to the chaos there.

The house is ruined, and it's a terrible thing to happen.

When I heard this question being asked,

I immediately thought of a cousin of mine who lives in Norway.

If you want to get to his front door, you have to ascend some stairs, and

the reason for that is because the snow in winter comes up to a certain

level, and the house has been built to take that into consideration.

I think the weather...

I'm old enough to say that our weather has definitely changed.

We have loads of rain now.

Is there more rain?

Much, much more.

We've had two serious instances this year in Wales of flooding -

Talybont, and now, the Vale of Clwyd, Rhuthin and St Asaph.

There are minor things we can do, and there are major things we can do.

I'd encourage every single politician, both locally

and in the Assembly

and in Westminster to seriously look at the way we approach floods.

There are things that we could do, like clearing ditches -

the responsibility for that shouldn't lie solely with farmers,

though one would like to see them do it -

but it was a ditch that caused the flooding to my house.

The way you build and design houses - I think you have to put more

pressure on the big companies who get planning permission to

build in places where common sense says there is a danger of flooding.

Can I throw that over to the politicians?

Alun Ffred Jones, have we been too keen to let these houses be

built in places which are liable to flood?

The Department of the Environment published maps several years

advising against that,

but in the past estates have been built in stupid places.

But going around Arfon, Llanberis, Tryfan, Talybont,

all these places were flooded.

One thing struck me, a lot of common sense - there was a lot of rain.

People accept that.

It reminds me of Gwilym Hiraethog's hymn, saying that all

the reservoirs of heaven, complete until now, have burst their banks.

That certainly happened that day.

But certainly, the Department of the Environment, the council,

Welsh Water even, need to look in detail, because in almost all

those places, one of the problems was ditches,

streams going through villages, under very low bridges,

or just pipes unable to contain the water.

They need to look carefully to see if anything can be done,

because what was happening was that the water was just carrying

so much rubbish down, it was creating small dams,

and the water had nowhere to go except up and into people's homes.

So that needs looking at, you have an expert in the audience, I know.

We'll hear from him shortly. Let's hear from the audience.

In Rhuthin, we had unexpected floods.

Last Tuesday morning, there were warnings about what might

happen in St Asaph, and as we know, it happened.

Our hearts go out to the families who have suffered there

so terribly, one family in particular.

It's been a tragedy for a number of people all over north Wales.

Talking of Rhuthin, an housing estate was build on flood land -

it's that simple.

The maps showed that.

When that was discussed by the town council in 2006,

they tried to persuade people that the houses weren't really

needed at all, because there was no need for over 300 houses at the time.

Looking at the maps, it was shown clearly that this was a flood plain.

There's nothing wrong with the houses, they're fine -

the owners are nearly all young families are very happy

with their properties. They've invested what little they have.

So who's to blame?

You have the Environmental Agency.

You have Denbigh County Council,

and you have also the former Welsh Development Agency, possibly.

People have to provide answers.

The Assembly will stand up for the old authority,

people will answer on behalf of the Environment Agency...

-You're shooting bullets at everyone.

-We're not shooting any bullets yet.

We want answers because people are suffering.

Gwyn Williams,

you asked the question and represent a farmers' union.

I totally agree with what Bethan Jones Parry said.

We need to clear the ditches.

The main complaint of people in rural areas

is that ditches are left and streams close...

But is that the responsibility of the agencies?

-If this is on your farm...

-No, I mean on the roads.

But, to take it a step further, we have had floods in the Conwy Valley.

Fortunately, we weren't hit during the recent floods.

The problem is, my friend Mike Davies in front of me,

from the Agency, we've argued many times about this,

that we need to clear the bottom of the River Conwy.

That would have solved a lot of problems and minimised the spending

-over the last few years.

-We'll hear from Mike in a moment.

Dilwyn Roberts, leader of Conwy Council, were you to blame?

Erm, we get a lot of the blame, but...

Are you guilty or not guilty?

Gwyn has hit the nail on the head.

There is a lot more that could be done by the Environment Agency,

as Gwyn says.

We'd all like to do everything perfectly,

but we have to remember that for local authorities,

around 65% of our budgets

goes towards preparing social and education services.

Just over 12% of our budgets

is there to be divided between everything else.

It's difficult to meet the demands of everything.

-Do you have the money when something like this happens?

-No.

But we're grateful for the support we receive.

We hope to solve some of these problems

with the Welsh Government.

Our sympathies go out to those who've had problems.

We're grateful to you for being here on behalf of Conwy Council.

We couldn't find a spokesperson for Denbighshire Council.

Gwyn Evans?

I would say that businesses and homes have been damaged.

More than that, my son lived in the area and suffered damage.

I blame the Environment Agency.

If they cleared these rivers... if you went into the River Elwy

and saw the mess, it's no wonder that Llanelwy was flooded.

At 2.30am,

my son was by the river speaking to five or six Agency workers.

He told them that if they knocked down a wall further down the river,

it would free the water.

They said, "We don't do things like that, do we?"

They had no way of stopping it.

Hywel Jones?

I come from Rhuddlan. You didn't mention Rhuddlan.

The bottom of Rhuddlan was flooded.

I remember, many years ago,

the River Clwyd flowed directly under the bridge.

Now, and over the last few years,

there have been branches and other things stuck under the bridge.

It's obvious that rivers and ditches aren't cleared.

Let's give the Environment Agency a chance to reply.

Thank you for joining us, Mike Davies.

What do you make of these points? You're getting it from all angles.

I'd like to start by expressing sympathy

to those who have suffered during these floods,

not just locally, but across Wales during the summer.

We work with the communities and see the damage being caused.

It causes a lot of heartbreak.

We definitely need to do more.

Maintenance work is something that needs more attention

-and we do carry out work.

-As much as Gwyn Williams would like to see?

It's impossible to achieve what everyone wants.

And it's impossible for the councils.

We have to do what needs to be done.

It's also important that we realise how extreme the weather has been.

And it's important...

Are we getting more rain these days?

Is there more than during the '60s and '70s?

We have seen rain like this in the past.

We've also seen floods like this.

The question is, is it going to happen more often,

as scientists are telling us?

The evidence points in that direction

so society has to stand up to this pattern and find a solution.

What are we going to do about it?

Maintenance is important but we need a balance.

What about the central point tonight?

Houses have been built on flood plains.

-Exactly. That is...

-But you agreed to that.

The most important thing we can learn from what we've seen

is to learn from the mistakes that were made.

We need to avoid those developments.

We're advising those responsible for the planning process

and giving them the best information possible

and decisions are made using that information.

Gareth Wyn Jones?

I feel like the man up there.

If we don't clear the rivers and cut down the trees nearby...

If you go down the A55 and look at the Ogwen River,

a tree has fallen across the river.

That should have been cleared straight away

or it will cause more problems.

Mike?

On the question of maintenance,

we have to remember that the water has got to go somewhere.

No river in the world will contain every drop of rainfall.

The water will flow onto what is historically a flood plain.

That can be agricultural land.

It's important to remember that.

But if you dig down four feet, the water level's four feet lower.

You disagree?

Completely. It's not that simple. If it was, that would've happened.

Water has got to go somewhere and if you dig four feet into a river,

unless you went from the source tom the sea,

it would cause a flood somewhere else.

-If you clear a ditch in one field...

-People disagree.

I'm sorry, but if you look at where the bridges are...

If you clear those places... It's not rocket science.

I'm a farmer and I see it every day.

If you don't clear the ditches, it clogs up, and goes somewhere else.

I respect you, but I think too many people sit in these offices

and don't understand what needs to be done.

Was there another hand up here, before I go back to the panel.

-Yes?

-Many years ago, I worked along the coast

on what they call, or what the do called, tidal gates.

I don't think that anyone knows where they are now.

And the system with the tidal gates is that the tide comes in

and closes the gate.

The tide goes out and the gates open.

They don't work now.

And so, you get floods.

Right. Dewi Jones in the back. Let's get the microphone over.

I would like to know,

we are local to Bodelwyddan, I heard on the news after the floods

that there's a development plan between Bodelwyddan and St Asaph.

Hundreds of houses to be built.

This is coming from the government, this scheme.

There is a farmer there I know.

There are 600 acres of his land that have been underwater.

I was reading about that today in the Daily Post.

600 acres have been underwater and it's within

a quarter of a mile of where these houses are to be built.

Where is the sense? Why isn't the government changing its plans now?

Right, thank you very much. Guto Bebb.

In the first place, naturally there are questions to be asked and we need answers.

But we should also be thanking the emergency services for their work.

And also, we hear plenty of condemnation

of the fact that the county councils are not cooperating, but

I understand the cooperation between Conwy and Denbigh has been superb.

The weather we have had has been extremely bad. We've had a wet year.

And I think people do recognise that the weather has been unnatural,

but the question is whether this is going to continue.

That of course means we need to reconsider planning.

But also we need to ask whether lessons need to be learned.

A lot of work has been done in the Conwy Valley. It has not necessarily been popular, but

when I woke in a flat in London and heard that 500 houses were affected

by the awful weather in North Wales, I was expecting it to have happened in the Conwy Valley.

You feel for those people that were affected,

but it raises the question does this teach us anything in moving forward.

Finally, regarding the development plan taking place throughout Wales, meaning houses will be

built across North Wales, I feel we are developing houses

without considering where they are going and who they will serve.

-That is a wider question than flooding.

-Are they needed and why are we building them on that land.

Certainly. The same argument has taken place in Conwy and I know that the council's hands are tied.

There is an order and an expectation that they act coming from the Assembly.

-I don't know where the Assembly got its figures.

-The Government.

Well, I think the figures are being squeezed.

My understanding is that those figures originally

came from figures created by John Prescott, and that says it all.

Christine Humphreys.

Can we return to the matter of using the flood plains?

I remember being on planning committees in the '80s and '90s.

I remember sitting there asking why they were planning to build

houses on this land because it is a flood plain.

And the answer was -

it's not a matter to be considered under the planning regulations.

That was the answer every time.

Everyone knows where the flood plains are.

-And yet, we had to give planning permission.

-That is not true.

The Environment Agency is one of those that have input.

There are maps showing clearly where you can't build houses.

So if a county council or planning committee doesn't listen to

that then that's their decision.

But isn't it true that the Assembly Government, as it was,

eased restrictions back in 2004?

The Environment Agency maps are very detailed.

The matter of how many houses you build is a different matter

and an important matter. It is controlled by the surveyors.

But I think we need a different body for Wales to deal with that matter.

We're talking here about who is responsible for what

and who has done this and who hasn't done that.

I'm sure I'm right in saying that Huw Vaughan Thomas,

the Auditor General, has said either today or yesterday that more

cooperation is needed between the emergency services and the

other agencies with responsibility when something like this happens.

I think that should be a priority

and I was surprised to hear that it wasn't already happening.

There is a lot of cooperation between...

I've heard a lot of praise for the cooperation between agency and council workers.

You can have the final word. We're grateful you have come here tonight to answer the complaints.

It's only fair that you have the final word.

Picking up on that, the idea of cooperation,

it's important we raise awareness in communities of flood risk

and work in those areas to deal with floods when they occur.

Thank you very much to everyone who contributed to that debate.

Join us in two minutes when we'll be discussing Welsh books.

It's time for an advert break.

Welcome back. We're in Colwyn Bay for this week's Pawb a'i Farn.

This is the final part of the programme

and we're going to discuss Welsh books next.

The question is from Rhodri Sion. Where are you, Rhodri?

In the back.

Does the panel believe that we produce too many Welsh books,

as so few people read them these days?

Rhodri, a pupil at Ysgol Dyffryn Conwy,

asking - does the panel believe that we produce too many Welsh books,

as so few people read them these days?

Guto Bebb, do you read Welsh books?

Well, not as many as I should. But yes, I do, to an extent.

I'm not sure whether the wording of the question is correct.

From what I've seen of the figures, I think the Books Council has published figures showing

there has been an increase in the sales of Welsh books.

There has been a fall for the rest of the UK.

And certainly, I met with the Publishers Society in London

last week and they see the Welsh Books Council as an example that

can be adopted in other parts of the UK to try and promote authors.

I think the fact that we have such a wealth of books being published

in Welsh is important, to show that the language is alive and well.

So you wouldn't say that too many are being published?

Well, we must be aware of the sales figures.

Naturally, we're aware of what happened with S4C's viewing figures falling.

People can point the finger because the taxpayer is contributing.

But the range of what is available and wealth is something we should welcome.

And also concentrating on children's books is something we should welcome.

And we should also not think of our produce a second class.

I saw recently that William Roberts' Y Pla was in its second edition,

it has been translated into a number of European languages.

Many books have been published in different languages.

We have stuff being produced that is often recognised,

maybe not in England, but certainly further afield.

Bethan Jones Parry?

I love the fact that we have so much choice and variety.

And on that point made by Guto, I also see this wealth and

variety published as a reflection of the changes happening in Wales.

The last novel I read was Heulfan by Llwyd Owen.

It's a very readable novel.

But it's about a different Wales than the one I am used to.

I really enjoyed it.

What about this suggestion we often hear that there are too many autobiographies?

-Well, they sell, yes.

-Does market research prove that?

Well, when I owned a bookstore, the autobiographies certainly sold.

John Ogwen and Jonsi, they sold in their hundreds.

And I know that these days, those kind of books can sustain them.

Certainly during the dark months after Christmas.

How many of the audience read Welsh books?

Gareth, you have published your own book. You can give it a plug!

Well, I enjoyed writing the book and it's been fantastic.

There is a book inside all of us.

And it has been a bestseller in Wales for a month.

I have a bestseller.

Congratulations. Gareth?

Talking about academic books, I'm at Bangor University

and I have trouble finding Welsh books for geography.

-An academic subject.

-Yes.

-But do you read novels?

What I mean is I waste hours translating into English,

as I am doing the course in Welsh.

-So if anything, we need more Welsh books.

-Thank you.

Yes, I read Welsh books and I have worked in a library.

I've just retired.

We always looked forward to the books being

published for the Eisteddfod and for Christmas.

-There weren't enough.

-Not enough?

-No.

Miriam, what about you? How much reading do you do?

I don't read that much, I must admit.

I don't find there's much that appeals to me.

But I must say, I've not really looked into it.

I've taken it for granted that it's all like the books I read for GCSE.

And that's not really something I would like to read.

-Girls?

-I read a lot of Welsh books. I enjoy them.

I think that Welsh literature is something unique

and it's incredible.

Our authors have a special kind of humour that you don't

see in English books.

-Fantastic. And you?

-I haven't read many Welsh books.

-But I would like to start.

-Great. What about you boys?

How much reading do you do?

I'm talking more about when the panellists were children...

Llyfr Mawr Y Plant!

But that is a fair point.

Things have improved a lot since when we were children. Alun Ffred.

Yes, but there were authors, T Llew Jones.

Trysor Y Mor Ladron is one of the best Welsh language novels.

J Ellis Williams, there were books.

Yes, there was not as much stuff about back then,

but there was some extremely good stuff.

The situation has changed, thank goodness,

and we need more quality stuff.

-Christine?

-I don't think there are too many books being produced.

We have young children learning Welsh and as they grow,

they need the opportunity and a wide range of choice.

If anything, maybe we need more. Maybe we need more marketing.

Maybe we need more books that appeal to young people.

But the point made by the young man, it is a different question.

But a lack of material for students and school children is an issue.

A quick question on this, because I'd like to move on to one final question, Angharad Mair

said on her Sunday morning show that it was our duty to buy Welsh produce.

How do you respond to that?

No, I wouldn't... Who is going to enforce this duty?

Are we going to have "the book police"?

-The police commissioner!

-Yes, the police commissioner.

-Guto?

-I would not say there is a duty. It is important the stuff sells itself.

And I think that is increasingly true. We're seeing it in music, for example.

There are so many groups that can sing in Welsh. The quality is there.

-Alun Ffred?

-No, I don't think it's a duty.

And certainly, I will just wander round and see what is there,

in Welsh and English. The truth is you cannot compare.

When you see the amount of stuff that is available in English, what is available in Welsh is nothing.

-Christine?

-Well, I had a book of Hedd Wyn's poetry given to me as a present

last week and I'm looking forward to reading that over Christmas.

Maybe it should be our duty to buy a Welsh book for someone else.

-A Christmas present.

-Good answer.

I want to move on, sorry. A question from you, Miriam. We've already heard from you.

How much authority do the new police commissioners have,

considering how many people bothered to vote?

Miriam asking the question - how much authority do the new police

commissioners have, considering how many people bothered to vote?

-Christine Humphreys?

-Obviously, not many people went out to vote.

-Less than 20%.

-Yes. It was disastrous.

When I went to vote, only 5% of the population had voted.

And that was quite late at night.

Obviously, it wasn't something that people thought was important.

As a Liberal, I didn't agree with it because I don't think that

someone in a job like that should be political.

And I was glad of the opportunity to see that there were

independent candidates on the list.

There was a Liberal in North Wales.

A member of the Liberal Democrats, but the Liberals weren't standing.

But a vote has taken place and we have a result.

And the commissioners now have four years to

-prove that they have a job to do.

-This was David Cameron's idea, Guto.

It was a Conservative Party idea and I think it is one of those

policies that I think is correct, but has been implemented badly.

I've said that publicly a number of times.

-What happened?

-I think there was a mixture of things.

The decision to hold the vote in November was a basic mistake.

The decision not to provide money to ensure information went to all homes was a mistake.

But to put it in context, five million people voted,

and that's five million more than were responsible for the old police authorities.

And also during the past three weeks, six MPs have been

elected in by-elections and some of those had turnouts of under 25%.

No-on is questioning their authority.

So Miriam should not be asking this question?

It's a fair question, and I think we now have a challenge.

Those elected to these roles need to prove that the jobs are relevant

and they can make a difference.

-Alun Ffred?

-A silly and pointless idea.

It will be interesting to see in four years' time

if it's made any difference.

Everyone will know who they are by then.

Well, nobody knew who they were.

Anyway, it's happened now and good luck to them. They'll need it.

It's important to note that in London, for example,

Boris Johnson is the police commissioner.

People are aware that if they want to complain about the Met Police, they know where to go.

Answer that point, Alun Ffred. We'll know who these people are.

If you have a complaint, you can go to Winston Roddick.

But under the old system...

He will have a lot of people knocking on his door.

-That's a good thing.

-There was a local link through the councillors on the police authority.

I'm not saying that system was perfect, but I don't think this is an improvement.

-Just one point...

-Sorry, no.

we have someone on the panel who will be working for the North Wales police commissioner, Bethan.

Yes, trying to reach out to the various communities.

How much authority will he have as a result of the turnout?

The commissioner has authority, as he was elected in the correct fashion.

Winston Roddick won the election.

So he has the authority as a result of that.

Saying that, I agree. I've never seen such a campaign.

Disorganised, the wrong time of year, very disappointing.

There we are. We must end there. Sorry, you do not have a chance to contribute on that subject,

audience, but thank you for your contributions this evening. And thank you, panel.

Next week, we will be in Ystradgynlais.

I hope you can join us. From Colwyn Bay, good night.