Browse content similar to 15/09/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Thursday night with our audience in place, waiting to quiz our panel, | :00:10. | :00:20. | |
:00:20. | :00:25. | ||
And with me here in Londonderry, from the Cabinet, Northern Ireland | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
Secretary, Owen Patterson, Labour's Shadow Health Minister, Diana | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
Abbott, Sinn Fein's Martina Anderson, Northern Ireland Assembly | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
member for this city, the deputy leader of the Democratic Unionists, | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
Nigel Dodds and the business woman and investment manager, Nicola | :00:42. | :00:52. | |
:00:52. | :00:52. | ||
Horlick. APPLAUSE | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
Right, we start with a question from Zoey Whitelaw, please. | :00:57. | :01:05. | |
Was Ed Miliband right to call the strikes, "A mistake." Saying the | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
strikes in the summer were a mistake - was he right, Owen | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
Patterson? Yes, he was. When you think of the difficulties economies | :01:15. | :01:24. | |
are facing around the world, from a meeting the American Finance | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
Secretary is going to fly to, when you look at the problems here, the | :01:29. | :01:37. | |
deficit we inherited, where we are borrowing �232,000 a minute, where | :01:37. | :01:46. | |
we are having to spend �120 million a day on interest, I find it | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
completely amazing that any serious people are considering striking,, | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
when negotiations are going on. This is about the state of pensions | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
and I am very happy that people are living ten years longer. The | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
consequence of that is there is a cost. It is a question of fairness, | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
because there are people watching this programme, in the private | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
sector, who will be paying more to public pensions than they will to | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
their own. The trade unions say there is no question of negotiation, | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
the Government laid down the law and that's how it is to be and they | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
will not negotiate over anything serious. I think that's incorrect. | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
We've discussed this on many occasions. Francis Maude is | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
handling this. He is clear, negotiations are going on. The idea | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
of a 3% increase, or over 3%, that is negotiable, it could become a 1% | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
increase in pensions, or is that fixed? I will not second-guess | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
Government negotiators. A simple fact is, we're all in this together. | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
There are those in the private sector who've had to work longer | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
and take less. We have enormous respect for those who work for the | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
public sector, particularly here in Northern Ireland, where you have | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
people like the police and the fire brigade who are on the frontline. | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
Everybody must contribute. The right to withdraw labour for a | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
strike is a democratic right in any society. | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
Whilst I do believe that, on many occasions, when one does go out on | :03:26. | :03:33. | |
strike, that the end result is not always anyone who wins. With that | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
said, I do support the right of workers. Do you believe they should | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
strike over this issue of pensions? Are you with Ed Miliband saying | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
they shouldn't? I'm not at all with Ed, with regards to this. I do | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
believe they should ballot. I think they should respect the outcome. | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
Diana Abbott, there's a curious thing here. Ed Miliband said, "I | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
believe it was a mistake for strikes to happen." Ed Balls said, | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
"will you call off the strike?" he answered, no he wouldn't. Who is | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
right? They have not had a ballot yet. The most important thing to | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
remember, which no-one wants to talk about, is the unions have a | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
just cause. They are being asked to work longer, pay in more and in | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
some cases to get less. We're not talking about "fat cats", we are | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
talking about care assistants, nurses, teachers, people who work | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
in local authorities. The Tories at Westminster are so far removed from | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
ordinary people. When I was a child, if people's children got a job | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
working for the council, people were glad for them because it was a | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
steady job and it came with a pension. That's very important to | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
people who have given their lives to the public service. What about | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
the strikes, we've heard the background many times? People don't | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
talk about the real issue. "I believe it was a mistake for | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
strikes to happen. I continue to believe that." Your Shadow | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
Chancellor says, "would you ask them to call off the strikes?" | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
"No:" who is right? It is not a question of who is wrong or right. | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
The Government is not negotiating in good faith. It is determined to | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
make ordinary people pay for bailing out the bankers. They want | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
proper negotiation. They have to go out to ballot because if the | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
negotiations do finally break down they will have had to go through a | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
ballot to have a strike. I hope and everybody hopes that the | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
negotiations really work and the Government begin to negotiate in | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
good faith. If they have a ballot and they ballot for a strike, would | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
you be with Ed Miliband saying it was a mistake or if the trade | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
unions want to go on strike, having had a ballot, it is their affair | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
and legitimate and right and proper they should? I would be with Ed | :05:59. | :06:07. | |
Miliband saying it is regrettable, but I would suspicious it would not | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
happen if the Government negotiated. Many public sector workers are | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
angry about the cuts taking place, the disruption to the service. As a | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
teacher, I would, five to ten years ago, I would never have considered | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
striking and I would have been whole heartedly against strikes. In | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
my opinion it's the only way we're being heard. People who would not | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
have normally taken action are going to this time, simply because | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
their voice is not being heard. Would you favour a mass November | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
strike? It is early until a decision is made. If the Government, | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
and I think what Owen is saying is totally wrong. One day of action, | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
the impact it will have on the economy is minute suel, compared to | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
the impact that the current economic strategy is having, but | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
putting public sector workers out of work, who can no longer | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
contribute to the economy. What would it achieve? It sends a | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
message to the Government, that the economic recovery in terms of the | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
cuts and deficit must change. It is too much, too fast. The woman in | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
the middle there. APPLAUSE | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
I just think the unions are as guilty as the Tories of being | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
detached from ordinary people. It's not "fat cats" or Government who | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
are going to get the message or have their day disrupted by public | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
service strikes. It is ordinary private workers who equally are | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
having their day disrupted, whether because they have to take a day off | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
to look after their children or can't get the services they need. | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
It seems bizarre to gain public support or get a message across to | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
cause this amount of havoc. Nicola Horlick, do you agree with that? | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
think the really important point is we're got to think about the impact | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
of slowing down. What is happening in Europe at the moment - if we | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
were to slow down, it would have an amazingly bad effect on our economy | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
ultimately because markets would take flight and Stirling would | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
start to collapse and people would not buy our bonds when we wanted to | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
raise money in the markets. Does a one-day strike, which she was | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
talking about, have any effect on the economy - just one day? It will | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
not have a huge effect on the economy. It is not about that. Yes, | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
of course it does have an impact on people if their children can't go | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
to school and you have to stay at home to look after them. You have | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
to think about the issue, which is, can we afford to pay people the | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
amount we have been paying them? Can we afford to have so many | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
working in the public sector? Can we afford the pensions? The answer | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
is, no. I have worked in the pension fund area for 28 years. I | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
have pension funds. I am telling you now it is not affordable or | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
sustainable. Who is paying those pensions? It is all of us - it is | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
the taxpayers. We are paying those pensions and it is not affordable. | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
Unfortunately, yes, of course everybody would like the status quo | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
to be maintained. I am saying it as someone who is not a politician, | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
not political, somebody who looks at it being in the industry for a | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
long time. These proposals will stripe one-third of my benefits. | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
Can I ask Mr Patterson to pledge to give up a third of his pension here | :09:32. | :09:41. | |
and now? APPLAUSE | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
All MPs, you will be pleased to hear, will make a larger | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
contribution to their pensions. We're not going to give up one- | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
third. We are all in this together. | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
No, no. You are getting more benefits now | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
than you were ten years ago. Is that right or wrong? Is it fair | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
that people in the private sector.... Is it fair that you get | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
more than me and your rates are going up? That is for the electors | :10:11. | :10:18. | |
to decide. Do you want to answer? The very | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
simple point is, there are people who are modestly paid in the | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
private sector, who will be paying more, as contributions to public | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
sector pensions than to their own. It is tremendous that people are | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
living ten years longer than they were 30 years ago. Have MPs done | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
their bit, is his point? If you say we're all in this together - have | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
MPs' pensions be cut in the same way his is cut? No the MP's country | :10:48. | :10:55. | |
luegs is going up. -- contribution is going up. 10%. You are asking me | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
to pay 14% over the next number of years. This is part of the | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
negotiation. This needs negotiating. It's not. The woman there in grey, | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
then I come to you. Yes, you. I would say that Ed | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
Miliband should hang his head in shame for the statement he made | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
along with George Osborne who said the unions are deeply irresponsible. | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
Danny Alexander, as far back as June, said that the contributions, | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
the increased contributions and the raise of pension age was going | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
ahead, regardless. That is not negotiation. Negotiation is when | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
you go in and change the outcome. He has already declared what the | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
outcome is. And the people... I'm a public servant as well. I cannot | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
afford to go on strike, but I can not afford not to go on strike. | :11:44. | :11:52. | |
They want me to work eight years longer, pay �70 more, to lose | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
�50,000 overall. Where's the fairness in that? | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
To answer the question directly.... Can you answer her question? | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
think the decision by Ed Miliband to take the stance that he did was | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
motivated more by the fact that as a politician he's aware and he's | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
looking at the Labour Party interest, essentially, he's aware | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
that strikes, like this, especially where they announce one after the | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
other by union bosses, which was unfortunate because it came across | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
as a co-ordinated, more along the lines to do with the Government's | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
general economic policy, rather than the issue of pensions. So, I | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
don't think that served the cause terribly well. I think he's | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
recognising that essentially these kind of major strikes across the | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
board, co-ordinated are not popular with ordinary people, apart from | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
those who are affected directly. That's the reality of it. Because | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
of the impact it has on public life and the impact it has on the | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
economy, and people are saying, well one day does not have much of | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
an impact. In fact, if you remember the extra bank holiday in April was | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
blamed for a slowdown in the economy. Having said that, of | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
course, it's not all one-sided, because the Government does have a | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
responsibility to negotiate properly. The decision on whether | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
to strike or not would have much more sympathy with the public at | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
large if the decision was made after the negotiation was finished. | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
I think it would have more public sympathy, because people would say, | :13:24. | :13:33. | |
"Why now?" What do you say to the lady's point, that actually the | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
Treasury announced what will happen and they are not seriously | :13:37. | :13:47. | |
:13:47. | :13:49. | ||
I certainly hope that they are. The negotiation should be a serious | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
negotiation. The only point is to go pre-emptively to strike action, | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
to the general public, that smacks of being too premature. The man up | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
there, in the grey shirt? I've worked for local government for 23 | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
years. We have had four years of a pay freeze. We are looking at | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
another two. Prices are going up. How are we supposed to run our | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
house economy is? You talk about mass economies, might wages, in | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
real terms, have gone down. I knew in favour of strike action? If we | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
have to take strike action, I'm in favour. Simply because I can't | :14:27. | :14:34. | |
sustain my family. What do I do? Go on the dole? You, in the front row? | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
By people are paying more money for the things they buy. People are | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
seriously cash-strapped. They should fight against that, so that | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
they can feed their families. Paterson? Do you want to pick up on | :14:47. | :14:55. | |
I don't underestimate how difficult the current economic situation is | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
for everybody in this hall and everybody watching. The simple fact | :14:59. | :15:09. | |
:15:09. | :15:10. | ||
is that we are borrowing �232,000 a minute. I said earlier, we are | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
spending �120 million of money a day in interest alone. That is | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
completely dead money. This business about, oh, we don't have | :15:22. | :15:32. | |
:15:32. | :15:32. | ||
the money, can I just deal directly with Nicolas' point, that the | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
public sector pensions are not affordable. The Government's own | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
figures show that, as a proportion of GDP, it is going down. It's not | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
if we can afford them, it is if people like Owen want to afford | :15:47. | :15:56. | |
them. On that point, Lord Hutton said, that diagram, those figures, | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
they are misunderstood. They actually refer to the effect after | :16:00. | :16:07. | |
the changes have been taken effect, not... Up well, distinguished | :16:07. | :16:14. | |
economists say that they are affordable. What kind of society | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
will spend billions of pounds bail out bankers, but won't give a care | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
assistant Edison pension? I have never known people eager to go out | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
on strike. -- a decent pension. In this economic climate, it must be | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
frightening, the prospect of going on strike. The teacher that said he | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
would never consider going on strike before, but because of what | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
is happening, he is having to consider it, he is more typical | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
than a stereotype of people that are eager to go on strike. I said | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
that it was the union bosses, lining up one after the other, that | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
appeared to be keen to go on strike to the public. I agree with you, in | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
relation to ordinary people, the last thing ordinary people want to | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
do is to resort to that kind of action. If he would let me speak, | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
they do not want to do that. They would rather have been settled by | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
negotiation. That's not always true for union bosses, many of whom are | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
extremely well-paid. People do not believe there is genuine | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
negotiations taking place. That's the problem. There are several ways | :17:24. | :17:34. | |
:17:34. | :17:45. | ||
Let's take another question, this time from Jude Lewis. Has the euro | :17:45. | :17:55. | |
:17:55. | :17:55. | ||
Nigel Dodds? You have seen the chaos yesterday. Is the euro-zone | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
dead and finished? I think in its current form, it certainly is. I | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
think a smaller, core euro-zone, led by the Germans and some of the | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
wealthier European states. But in my view, the euro should never have | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
been born in the first place. It has been an unmitigated disaster | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
from day one. It was a one-size- fits-all approach to the European | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
economy and it was never going to work. You had a situation where you | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
didn't have a united government, a United finance ministry, a united | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
budget. That is the only way you can make a united currency work. If | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
you don't have any of that, United currencies are always going to lead | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
to problems. The question is if it is past its sell-by date. Most | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
things that have passed their sell- by date, they accept a day when you | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
can go on eating them, most things you can throw away. Do you think | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
that is going to happen? I think it's like those things that should | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
be thrown away, but they are not. The only reason it continues to be | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
propped up is that the Euro- federalists, who dreamed up this | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
scheme and the first place, they absolutely determined to keep it | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
going, even if it means bankrupting them and taxpayers. There is going | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
to come a crunch, sooner or later. We know, no matter what is done, | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
the Greeks are eventually going to default. That is the reality. You | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
cannot sustain the current situation. There was no confidence | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
in the market. The sooner that happens, I think the reality will | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
set in. It will be very painful, no matter what happens. It you | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
bankrupt Germany and the eurozone countries, that is painful. It the | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
banks go bankrupt in France because of the amount of debt they have in | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
Greece, that will be painful. But this pretence that the eurozone is | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
going to be maintained against all comers, that Chris is going to | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
remain in the euro-zone, it is nonsense. It flies in the face of | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
the facts. The euro experiment shows the folly of those that press | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
ahead with Euro-federalism and created as a principle above | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
reality, that you cannot create this stream above the wishes of the | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
people. Yes? I just had a point in relation to what Nigel has said | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
about the architecture of the euro. He has discussed the fact that the | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
reason why the euro was in difficulty was because it was not | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
political union at the same time as monetary union. I would just like | :20:19. | :20:26. | |
to remind Nigel that last week Jurgen Stark, the German member of | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
the ECB, actually resigned. He was one of the leading architects of | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
this stability and Growth Pact. Before the euro-zone members at the | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
time had actually followed what they were supposed to follow within | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
the constraints of that particular pact, we would not be seeing the | :20:44. | :20:54. | |
:20:54. | :20:57. | ||
crisis that we are seeing at the moment. Nicolas Horlick, you are a | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
Business woman, what do you make of what is happening? Is the euro dead | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
and gone? I think it was ill con seen fit. Are you can't have | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
monetary union without fiscal union as well. -- ill conceived. | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
Certainly, to have people making decisions based on interest rates | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
and not having any ability to do anything about taxation is not | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
right, clearly it has failed. I think it would be pretty disastrous, | :21:22. | :21:30. | |
it would be like a Lehman Brothers times 1000 if you were to unwind | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
the euro. Why so? Or of the positions that are open in Euro- | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
currency, hedge funds, banks, it would be incredibly... It's not | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
just banks, it would be disastrous for ordinary people. It would be | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
disastrous for everybody if that were to happen. So, what would | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
happen? Let me finish, what has to happen is that Greece has to be let | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
go. They are going to have to have the drachma again. It's only fair | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
on them, because these austerity measures are so extreme that it is | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
very difficult for them. They need to be able to devalue. They can | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
only do that if they come out of the euro. Then there has to be some | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
sort of fiscal union. Maybe Nigel is right, maybe it's a smaller | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
group of countries, maybe not all 17. I think it's important to | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
maintain the euro. I didn't believe the euro in the first place, and | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
glad we didn't join. But we are where we are now, and you have to | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
be realistic. It would be very difficult to suddenly bring back | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
all of those different currencies. We have to find some solution. | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
There are constitutional issues, clearly political issues, that | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
arise. In Germany, how on are the Germans going to want to carry on? | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
Clearly, if he or German, you're going to be upset about what is | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
going on. What do you see in the crystal ball? A smaller number of | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
people, still the euro, Greece are not in it, and hopefully we will | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
get through it. Let me emphasise, this is really serious. This is the | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
biggest problem we have faced, economically, for generations. | :23:03. | :23:11. | |
Potentially. Martina Anderson, what do you think? Well, when you look | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
at Greece and Ireland, the so- called bail-outs that took place, | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
it wasn't Krays what island that was bailed out. It was the bankers. | :23:22. | :23:32. | |
-- it wasn't Greece Walk Island What would you do with the banks? | :23:32. | :23:38. | |
Default. Let them closed down? would have entered into an | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
arrangement about how we would have paid that in the future. How would | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
people have gone to a cash point and got their Euros out committee | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
poll -- followed that policy? didn't believe that the banks would | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
have collapsed. We didn't believe it would have been a consequence of | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
defaulting. Do you think the euro is past the sell-by date? You have | :24:01. | :24:08. | |
heard what Nicolas Horlick has said. I don't think it's helpful to | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
speculate when the gravity of the situation is exactly as Nicolas | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
said. I was interested in Martina's comments. When the Irish problems | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
came to the surface in November, we discussed this. It isn't good | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
enough to say, let them go. The eurozone, as we know, is a few | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
miles from here. We sell more to the Republic of Ireland than we | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
sell to Brazil, China, India and Russia combined. It is a huge | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
market for us. There are many, many people across the United Kingdom | :24:42. | :24:48. | |
who depend on as having a stable and prosperous republic of Ireland. | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
So, in our case, we contributed a bilateral loan, on top of the EU | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
and IMF loan. I think it was 3.8 billion euros. I think that was the | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
right thing to do. What about Greece? I told you so is not a good | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
economic policy. There are many of us, right from the beginning, that | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
had doubts, clearly expressed by Nigel. The problem is, this is a | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
huge international problem. We've got the American finance flying | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
over to Poland tomorrow at. Thank goodness we are not in the euro. It | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
was absolutely right that we stayed out. We do have control of taxation, | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
we do have control of our interest rates. We do have a competitive | :25:33. | :25:40. | |
exchange rate. We are in a position to be helpful from the outside. On | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
the question of Rhys, we had a meeting yesterday with Sarkozy and | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
Angela Merkel. -- Greece. You have seen the markets steady today. The | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
17 countries in the euro have very, very difficult decisions to make. | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
From our point of view, speculation on what they should do is unhelpful. | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
But, it is in our interests that these problems are resolved over | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
time. That is not in our interest that the euro should break-up. But | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
we should all be thankful we are not in the euro ourselves. It's | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
interesting for me to watch, I live and work in Dublin. Regardless of | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
the arguments over whether the euro was right or wrong, I find it | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
ludicrous that the UK politicians don't understand that if the | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
eurozone fails, Ireland, north and south, fails. This is a big deal | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
for the UK. Huge trade and investment links. For that reason, | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
why isn't David Cameron the Udinese negotiations? Why doesn't the UK | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
offer to reduce some of its debt in eurobonds? Why it isn't it looking | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
to make more aggressive solutions, rather than dancing on the grave of | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
the euro? It's just over the border, as you say. I still don't feel | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
you're going far enough to do anything more than just say, well, | :27:02. | :27:10. | |
the euro is dead. That is not a fair interpretation of what I said. | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
In the case of Ireland, we were quite clear that we stepped in and | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
made a bilateral loan. That was a clear decision because we have a | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
huge, vested interest in keeping a prosperous and stable economy next | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
door. Not just for more than Ireland but for the whole of the UK. | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
But beyond their, I understood, but beyond that there seems to be a | :27:35. | :27:43. | |
disengagement. Diane Abbott? think we have Gordon Brown to thank | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
for keeping us out of the euro. He is a man, I think, that posterity | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
would will deal with kinder than at the moment. No, I think that's true. | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
I understand what you're saying, it is a huge deal. But I've always | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
been sceptical about economic and monetary union. It was, essentially, | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
a political project. It never made much economic sense. It was fine | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
when we had a boom internationally. Now it has fallen apart. To be fair | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
to Her Majesty's government, whatever the rhetoric, clearly | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
David Cameron has to please his Euro-sceptics. They have been | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
active, behind the scenes, trying to help southern Ireland. But I | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
think Nicola is probably right. The poor Greeks cannot sustain the | :28:31. | :28:39. | |
level of cuts to stay within the euro. If you spoke to German | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
central banks, which I did in the 90s, they were always sceptical | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
about having Latin countries in the euro. The economies were so | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
different from those of Germany. I don't want to speculate, but I | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
think that Greece's position is not sustainable. We just have to hope | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
that the German taxpayer is going to be willing to fund weaker | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
countries within the eurozone into the foreseeable future. So, our lot | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
turns on Angela Merkel and her ability to persuade hero and voters. | :29:12. | :29:22. | |
:29:22. | :29:22. | ||
One more point, from the man up there. | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
Is it not fair to say if the euro collapses it might take the system | :29:26. | :29:33. | |
down with it? Do you believe in that? They expect 25% in British | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
business. We get funded from British business, at the end of the | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
day. Do you think that assessment is right? Yes, potentially. What | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
you have to remember is there is a pile of debt in other countries | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
like Italy. When you look at who lent that, it's the French banks. | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
That is why you have read in the papers that France may have to re- | :29:55. | :30:02. | |
finance its banks. The whole system could collapse. | :30:02. | :30:12. | |
A brief point from you, Sir. If you look at all currencies, the dollar, | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
$14.4 trillion in debt. I don't know what the UK is. You have | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
highlighted the problem there. All currencies have red balloons. The | :30:19. | :30:28. | |
fact is, sooner or later, they will have to come to the solution that | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
it is useless. Wipe the slate clean and start again. That is what they | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
did after World War II. Germany and Japan had their slates wiped clean. | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
Within 20 years they had the strongest economies in the world. | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
We'll see. Right, well on that gloomy note, let's move on. We move | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
on to a question completely different. | :30:56. | :31:04. | |
Do you agree with the retired Bishop of Derry that priests should | :31:04. | :31:14. | |
be able to marry if they wish, within the Roman Catholic Church? | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
Do you think Catholic priests should be able to marry? I am not a | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
Catholic. It is with some care that I comment on this. First of all, we | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
have to remember that Roman Catholic priests have not always | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
had to be sell bait. I think it came in the -- celibate. I think it | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
came in the 11th century. It was for spiritual and other reasons. | :31:38. | :31:47. | |
Also, people say, the Church at the time wanted priests to leave their | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
land to the Church. There are Roman Catholic priests with families now. | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
Those are those Anglican priests which have come across to the Roman | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
Catholic Church. Increasing numbers of Archbishops, not just your | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
bishop here, your former Bishop.... Your description is fine - what is | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
your answer? I think, in the erm terms of a paper that was -- in the | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
terms of the paper that was signed in 1970, the Catholic Church needs | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
to open up this issue and have a debate. Clearly there'll always be | :32:24. | :32:32. | |
a case for celibate priests. Nobody is going to enforce marriage! | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
point is this paper was signed in 1970 by nine Catholic theologyians, | :32:38. | :32:47. | |
one of whom is the present Pope. you agree that it should not be on | :32:47. | :32:57. | |
:32:57. | :32:59. | ||
Bill Clinton Tory? As a former -- should not be obligatory. I don't | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
agree with for different reasons,vy to say. I think the former Bishop | :33:04. | :33:11. | |
is respected in our city and rightly so. I have heard some | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
comments from people who have said they would have liked him to have | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
said it a lot sooner. I do think that, without doubt, I think it is | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
an issue and I am a Catholic. I do believe that at the same time that | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
we must confront it and address it. I think it will take a long time | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
for the workings of it. Why? think, you know once you go through | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
law and all the discussions. have Catholic priests who are | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
married already - they came from the Church of England. There is an | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
issue here. I would like to address it. I'm junior minister to Martin | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
McGuinness in the office of the first and Deputy First Minister. | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
One of the important issues I am dealing with and one of the most | :34:00. | :34:07. | |
painful issuesvy found I am dealing is around historical institutional | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
abuse and clerical abuse. Whilst I do not believe that there is a | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
direct connection, perhaps, but I think that when you have an | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
institution that is an all male institution, that perhaps would | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
attract the kind of people that have been unfortunately within | :34:26. | :34:33. | |
those institutions and has caused the damage and the pain to young | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
children, I think this is a wider discussion that we need to have. I | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
think this is one element of it. I do believe, without doubt, that it | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
should happen and it should happen very soon. | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
OK. The man up there in the striped tie. Speaking as a recovering | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
Catholic myself, I can say the Church has a lot of reforming to do | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
if they are going to survive, basically. You have one or two | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
priests...: What is a recovering Catholic? A humanist now. | :35:05. | :35:12. | |
Somebody, you know, there's very few people ordained if at all any | :35:12. | :35:19. | |
more on the island. In America this debate has gone on as well. Also on | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
the issue as whether woman should have an equal role. The Church has | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
to look at itself and really ask serious questions, as was said | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
about other issues as well, if they are going to survive. Nicola | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
Horlick? I am not a Catholic, but my mother and my husband is. It is | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
difficult to comment when you are not a member of that particular | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
church. It has to be right. I completely agree that looking at | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
all the things which have happened, it has to be right to give people | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
the choice. Not everybody has to get married. It would be a good | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
idea to allow priests to be married. There are, certainly in this | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
country, Anglican priests who have moved across who are. I think that | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
would be a sensible thing. Do you agree with what she implied and | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
stated, if you had more married priests within the Roman Catholic | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
Church you might not have the problem of child abuse which have | :36:14. | :36:22. | |
been continually.... Can I? That was your implication. When you have | :36:22. | :36:29. | |
an all-male institution I think you provide an opportunity for perhaps | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
what some of us may describe as paedophilia and other types of | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
activity going on. I'm not saying that to get married that that would | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
address that. I think that you allow for access into an | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
institution like that for people who have, unfortunately, those kind | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
of tendencies. I think if you have then the options of being married | :36:55. | :37:02. | |
that you could address some of them. It smacks of heinous desperation | :37:02. | :37:10. | |
that the Catholic Church would say, let's go down the road of abolish... | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
Get rid of celibacy in some how to address the issues of the past. If | :37:16. | :37:24. | |
a man has molessed a child, if the -- molested a child, if the | :37:24. | :37:34. | |
:37:34. | :37:35. | ||
Catholic Church feel they can some how relief these men by letting | :37:35. | :37:43. | |
them marry women. It smack desperation. I am lapsed because of | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
this horrific stuff we have heard. I begrudge even bringing my | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
children to Catholic schools. I want them to go to integrated | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
schools. I don't want them to be brought into this whole thing. We | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
talk about it at the school gates. We don't want our children to be | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
alter boys or girls. Our trust has been completely broken. We have no | :38:06. | :38:13. | |
confidence in the Church at the minute as a parent. Second row from | :38:13. | :38:20. | |
the back? I wonder if they would allow gay partnerships for priests. | :38:20. | :38:27. | |
It is one thing to be OK in an open relationship with a woman, but why | :38:27. | :38:35. | |
can't they be in a relationship with a man? Nigel Dodds? I have to | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
say on the issue, the backdrop to the former Bishop's comments, the | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
lady who has spoken has spoken very powerfully and I have heard other | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
people speak like that in my constituency and so on. It is a | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
very, very difficult time for a lot of people in the Roman Catholic | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
faith. I have to say, I suppose, it is difficult, as Nicola said to | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
make any real comment if you are not a member of that church. It is | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
a matter for the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the day. | :39:09. | :39:16. | |
not a matter for society to comment on whether you think, whether he's | :39:16. | :39:26. | |
right to say that celibacy should not obligatry? On all matters like | :39:26. | :39:33. | |
this -- obligatory? On all matters like this we should go back to | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
Christian faith, which is the holy scriptures. It is not the matter | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
just to decide, well what should the Church do? What's the modern | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
day view? It is what do the holy scriptures teach? What did God lay | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
down in his word? There is nothing in the word of God to say that you | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
should have celibacy. APPLAUSE | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
What do you say to the view from the back that civil partnerships | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
should be allowed? Again that is a matter entirely for the Roman | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
Catholic Church. Again, what comes out of that should be based on a | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
proper examination and study of the holy scriptures. It is for church | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
people to discuss that. In my view, these matters should be examine nds | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
the light of scripture, not in the light of men's thoughts of what | :40:25. | :40:34. | |
they think is best. Owen Patterson? I think when somebody as | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
distinguished makes a statement like this, I think one should prick | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
up one's ears. I think, similar to Nigel, for myself I am a member of | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
the Church of England. I'm not an expert on Catholic | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
doctrine. I really don't think it's appropriate for me to make comments. | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
This is a matter for the Catholic Church to work out for itself. | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
Say it again. I would disagree with him when he says it is a matter for | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
the Church to work out. That is what they've been doing for how | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
many years in relation to child abuse. They have been allowed to | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
cover this up. You have just said, let them get on with it themselves. | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
That's completely, you have completely missed all the | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
discussion if that is your viewpoint. They are not above the | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
law. They think they are above the law. They aren't. To let them get | :41:28. | :41:38. | |
on with it themselves, that is what has gone wrong. APPLAUSE | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
If that's the position, as I heard it as well, you know, for a state | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
at the minute that is trying to bring some kind of closure on the | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
whole issue of institutional abuse, I think as Secretary of State you | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
need to clarify your position. Nigel, I would offer to you to | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
clarify your position. The members of the assembly and there are | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
representatives in Government, here in the north, need to clarify their | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
position, now at this point, as we're coming up to the | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
establishment of an inquiry into historical institutional abuse. You | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
need to clarify your position. I have the greatest respect for the | :42:17. | :42:25. | |
Bishop. I think maybe it's too late and a subject to offer to the | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
Church on. They may not be for turning. It will have to be forced | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
to turn. APPLAUSE | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
Nevertheless, the question was about celibacy and whether it | :42:37. | :42:47. | |
:42:47. | :42:47. | ||
should be obligatry. -- obligatory. I am aware of the | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
anguish these cases have caused. The question was about marriage. | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
That is something for the Church to decide within its own rules. If | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
there has been any law-breaking, by anybody, we are all equal before | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
the law. If the lady knows of cases, she | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
should go to the police. I think we'll go on to another | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
question. Let's take this one from today's news from Leo Cullen, | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
please. Leo Cullen, break away from | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
Northern Ireland and the UK for just a moment. | :43:21. | :43:31. | |
Does Libya have a better future We hope so. In my view, Iraq was an | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
illegal invasion in the first place and you had years of bloodshed. I | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
saw David Cameron in Libya today, looking very triumphant. I felt | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
rather nervous, I remember Tony Blair looking triumphant in Kosovo, | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
we know what that led to. I think the thing is not over, you can't | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
claim victory yet. It's very important that at every point both | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
the British and the French make it clear that they really were | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
supporting the Iraq rebels to defend human rights, and not to get | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
access to oil. I think it's important that the British and the | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
French make it clear that this is a Libyan lead issue, this is for the | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
Libyans to go where they want to go. I'm glad we were able to stop some | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
people being slaughtered in Benghazi. But it's too wally to | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
claim victory. Do you think we will benefit in terms of oil? -- it's | :44:26. | :44:33. | |
too early to claim victory. I sincerely hope that was not the | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
motive... That was the question, do you think we will benefit? A human | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
nature is human nature, what can I say? I don't know, what would you | :44:43. | :44:53. | |
:44:53. | :44:56. | ||
say? Let Owen and so, he knows if Pick up the challenge. I think that | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
she is quite right, it is not all over. There are pockets of | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
resistance. But when you look back six months ago, and you saw the | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
prospect facing the people of Benghazi, there was a prospect of a | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
real massacre, right on Europe's doorstep. I fully paid tribute to | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
David Cameron for working with President Sarkozy, the Arab League, | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
and getting together a UN resolution. At a huge tribute to | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
the enormous scale of armed forces and NATO, for getting rid of | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
Gaddafi with extraordinarily little civilian cost. But Diane is quite | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
right, this is not all over. We have a transition Council at the | :45:37. | :45:43. | |
moment. We need to see a fresh government properly established. | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
But what we have seen today is an extraordinary outburst, I accept | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
that, people really pleased to be getting their freedom. | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
distinguish between this and what happened in Iraq? I think Diane's | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
point is very similar to Iraq. It's too early to tell. As I understand, | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
Iraq is a very chaotic place. It has free press, people have mobile | :46:06. | :46:12. | |
phones, they ran difficult -- there are different political parties. | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
It's not a Ricky dinky Scandinavian democracy. But I still think it's | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
better than it was under Saddam Hussein. But we did need to | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
intervene in Iraq and I think it can't be defended. I agree, we | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
didn't need an illegal war. We heard about weapons of mass | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
destruction, and we also heard the truth of the fallacy of what was | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
told to us. I hope that in Iraq that we have a high standard of | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
international... In Libya, that we have a high standard... Are you in | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
favour of the intervention in Libya? If I think that Colonel | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
Gaddafi should have stood down earlier. That's fair enough, were | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
you in favour of the intervention? NATO? Absolutely not. I was not in | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
favour of any international interference. I was in favour of | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
the people of Libya themselves demanding the human rights and | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
equality that they were entitled to. I believe it is up to the Libyan | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
people themselves to decide the kind of system of government that | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
they want. I hope that the human rights protections that they are | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
entitled to our maintained. The man at the back and then I will come to | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
you. Why has there not been intervention in Syria, Bahrain? The | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
British government is holding hands with the Saudis. If you look at | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
their human rights record, you don't see them going and precision | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
bombing or whatever. Do you mean you shouldn't go into Libya because | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
you don't going to Saudi Arabia? You have to do nothing or | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
everything? People are being slaughtered in Syria. I can't see | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
them making any effort at all. you think they should? I don't | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
think it solves anything at all. Would it sold it in Libya? It's too | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
early to say. Some of the people involved in Libya are people that | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
Britain had down as being Al-Qaeda terrorists or whatever. They don't | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
even know how clear that is with the Government. All of the weapons | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
that they had put into the country. On the gangway? I think we run the | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
risk of becoming an international watchdog. The fact that we have | :48:23. | :48:30. | |
tried to intervene in every world's crisis. I think we need to be they | :48:30. | :48:37. | |
reached -- need to be very selective. To base it on how much | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
oil they have, it's for the wrong reasons. I knew in favour of the | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
action in Libya? Some aspects, I didn't agree with arming rebels in | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
a country we don't know much about. I think Colonel Gaddafi should have | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
steps down. He was obviously a tyrant. But I think that there are | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
countries that have needed our help for much longer. Nigel? I remember | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
being in Tripoli a few months ago, standing in Green Square. To | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
imagine that it's now been renamed Martyrs' Square, people are in the | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
streets celebrating freedom, is a dramatic and unbelievable | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
transformation in a very short time. At that time, people would not talk | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
to any Westerners. They would not make any expression of opinion | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
because they were terrified by Gaddafi. He not only terrorised his | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
own people, but we also have experience in Northern Ireland of | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
him supplying the IRA. Many people were murdered as a result of his | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
help to the IRA. The fact of the matter is that I think it was right | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
to intervene. Remember, had we not intervened at the time that we did, | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
tens of thousands of people would have been slaughtered in Benghazi. | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
People would have been rightly saying, you could have done | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
something about it. I agree with the point about Syria and all of | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
the rest of it. Why can't we do it everywhere? But why can't we do it | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
everywhere is not an excuse about doing nothing at all where we can | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
intervene. David Cameron, Ed Miliband, the entire Western | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
establishment would have been criticised, left, right, centre, | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
you allowed a massacre to happen as a point of principle. I don't think | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
that's right. I think NATO did a great job, I think it's essential | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
that they apprehend Gaddafi because I think as long as he is at large I | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
think he poses a threat and causes instability. I think when he is | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
brought to justice, not only of crimes against his own people, but | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
for crimes against the people of Northern Ireland, the Irish | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
Republic and Britain, because tens of thousands of innocent people | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
everywhere were murdered as a result of his regime. Do you want | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
to comment on that, Martina, as a past member of the IRA? I would | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
have thought that Nigel would have been more concerned about the | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
British government's relationship with Gaddafi. Both. Can you comment | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
on the arms supplies from Libya? Well, that is a story that has been | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
out there and spoken about. People have had all sorts of discussions | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
and debates. It is 30 years old. The reality is that the IRA is off | :51:10. | :51:16. | |
the scene now. We I in a peace process. I can say, as a former | :51:16. | :51:23. | |
member of the IRA, I accept wholeheartedly that we caused her | :51:23. | :51:32. | |
to here -- we caused HIP here. But we were not alone. What we need, in | :51:32. | :51:39. | |
order to advance this peace process, is a genuine truth Commission. And | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
I am, as a former IRA member, willing to go forward and enter | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
into that process. I don't know Nigel. If you can put your hand on | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
heart and say that you would be able to encourage either yourself | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
or others to go for it, about the Ulster Resistance, more of those | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
guns, I don't know if the British government would be willing to go | :52:04. | :52:10. | |
for it and speak to us about the kind of relationships that have | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
been there. Let us just talk about one agent, when we talk about | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
almost the quickie divorce that took place within a two day trial | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
between the state and the agent... They had the opportunity to get the | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
trip to a commission and a reduced cost of a Nigel! You refuse to give | :52:31. | :52:38. | |
evidence to the Bloody Sunday We're talking about Libya, you have | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
made a point. Sinn Fein would not give evidence. I think it's an | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
important part, with all due respect, if you let me finish, with | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
regards to the British government's establishment cut back I think | :52:52. | :53:02. | |
:53:02. | :53:07. | ||
you've said NF about it. -- I think Nicola Horlick? I feel really | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
believed that it worked out in Libya. If you go back and think | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
about what was said when the unrest began, I remember John Simpson | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
saying it was going to be over by tomorrow. It wasn't, we intervened | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
and everybody was saying it would be over within a week. Then it went | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
on. I really do agree with what was said by the gentleman near the back | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
earlier. I'm not sure there is any rhyme and reason to when we | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
intervene. It is a bit random. Thereat other countries where we | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
should intervene. I completely agree. I'm sure I would notice a | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
difference between now and when Gaddafi was in charge. It's | :53:48. | :53:54. | |
fantastic for those people to feel freedom. But the policy is a little | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
bit random. Why haven't we got into Bahrain or anywhere else? I feel | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
slightly cynical about the oil thing. I think we will benefit as a | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
result of what we have done. There are countries that, over many years, | :54:08. | :54:14. | |
have had so many years of distress and unhappiness. Zimbabwe, for | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
example. We have never intervened there. I think it would be a good | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
idea, if we consider, as someone said, why are we acting as the | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
policeman of the world? It's a little bit arrogant that we think | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
we should go in and impose our will on other people. These are tribal | :54:31. | :54:37. | |
societies. I don't know how it will pan out. I hope it will pan out | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
well for Libya. But these are not easy countries. They are not like | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
our countries. Whether they are able to embrace democracy, I don't | :54:43. | :54:49. | |
know. But I very much hope that they will. We have heard from you, | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
sir. Is at more than likely that British governments will take this | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
kind of action, liberal interventionism? If Libya turns out | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
to be a success? Zimbabwe is always mentioned, nothing has been | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
mentioned about Mugabe. I hope we are not going to become liberal | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
interventionists. The whole point about Libya is that MPs voted to | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
give our support. With a UN resolution? With a UN resolution. | :55:18. | :55:27. | |
What we were frightened of was put on the ground and another Iraq. | :55:27. | :55:34. | |
why are we not doing anything about Syria? I think we need to revisit | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
what international war says. Until we have clear international law, | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
there will always be suspicion that we intervene when there is oil, if | :55:41. | :55:51. | |
:55:51. | :55:52. | ||
there is not, somehow we don't see The man in the blue shirt? There | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
are so many countries in the world with problems. You can't going to | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
everyone. But it's hard to know how they pick and choose. Of course | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
there will be oil deals for Britain and France. Of course that was at | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
the top of Cameron and Sarkozy's minds when they went in. Was at the | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
main reason? Probably not. Would they have had the success with | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
targeted bombing in Syria? Probably not. It has to be a bit tongue-in- | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
cheek with the British, who they support, their history in the world | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
is not exactly a white slate. just like to expand on that last | :56:28. | :56:34. | |
I's point. Two weeks ago in the Independent, about the rendition | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
programme, Britain and America had been sending prisoners to be | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
brittle the interrogated in countries like Libya. Do you think | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
that the British and French were right to go in? I think it is right | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
for Gaddafi to step down, but I think this is typical Western | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
imperialism. At a brief comment? I'm saddened by that comment. I | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
thought Nigel's remarks were very interesting. This was a really, | :57:02. | :57:09. | |
really bad man. He was a tyrant. He was a torturer. And he's gone. At a | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
very good thing. We can't go into every country. People talk about | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
Syria and other places. In this case, there was about to be a | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
massacre. The Arab League and NATO works together to get a UN | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
resolution. In all of the discussions that I saw, it was a | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
serious legal recommendation by the Attorney-General. It was discussed | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
very openly. Oil was not mentioned by anybody. It was to stop a | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
dreadful massacre, by a tyrant Command Europe's doorstep. Diane | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
was right. We don't know how it will pan out, but we hope that | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
Libya will develop into a free, prosperous country. The fact that | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
Gaddafi is not there this evening, that two properly elected Western | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
politicians go to Benghazi and Tripoli and are welcomed, it has to | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
beat a good thing. That brings us pretty much to the end. Just to | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
clarify what was said to day in Tripoli, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil said, | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
while agreeing there were no previous arrangements with allies | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
and friends, as a faithful Muslim people we will appreciate these | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
efforts and they will have priority. Within a framework of transparency. | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
Make of that what you can! Next week we are going to be in | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
Birmingham. It is the Liberal Democrat conference. Among those on | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
the table, Vince Cable, Harriet Harman, Ian Hislop and the founder | :58:39. | :58:49. | |
:58:49. | :58:54. |