27/10/2011 Question Time


27/10/2011

David Dimbleby chairs from Winchester, with a panel including Downton Abbey writer and creator Julian Fellowes, and Iain Duncan Smith, the secretary for work and pensions.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 27/10/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight, we are in Winchester, England's capital, until the

:00:17.:00:18.

Normans invaded and therefore a very good place to debate our place

:00:18.:00:23.

in Europe and anything else our audience wants to debate. Welcome

:00:23.:00:31.

to Question Time. I'm joined here in Winchester

:00:31.:00:36.

Cathedral by the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, the

:00:36.:00:41.

Shadow Home Office Minister, Gloria De Piero, the leader of the UK

:00:41.:00:45.

Independence Party, Nigel Farage, the Liberal Democrat MP, Jo Swinson,

:00:45.:00:50.

and the Oscar-winning Julian Fellowes, who created the TV series,

:00:50.:01:00.
:01:00.:01:08.

Downton Abbey, and is a recently APPLAUSE

:01:08.:01:13.

Our first question comes from Nigel Dallard, please?

:01:13.:01:19.

In the vote on the EU referendum, why weren't MPs given the freedom

:01:19.:01:24.

to represent the views of the public in their constituencies?

:01:24.:01:27.

weren't they given the freedom, in other words to vote as they like,

:01:27.:01:33.

yes? Yes. Iain Duncan Smith? Well, the...

:01:33.:01:38.

reportedly said, according to today's papers. I thought I might

:01:38.:01:48.

get away with it... "ever put me in that position again, that's it!"

:01:48.:01:51.

haven't had that confrontation with the Chief Whip but that shouldn't

:01:51.:01:54.

stop the press having a good time with it. So you didn't object to

:01:54.:01:58.

the three line whip? What I discussed with the party was

:01:58.:02:01.

another matter, but the general sense is I'm not going to get

:02:01.:02:05.

caught up in that. The question is about why there was a three Lynn

:02:05.:02:09.

whip and the Government takes the view, as the coalition, that the

:02:09.:02:14.

position they've got on Europe is that this particular motion was at

:02:14.:02:17.

the wrong time and really about the wrong issue. The motion itself was

:02:18.:02:22.

a rather complicated motion that if in fact you tried to implement that

:02:22.:02:25.

motion which had three or four different options inside it, it

:02:25.:02:28.

would have been almost impossible. I think you can argue that it's a

:02:28.:02:31.

mark of some respect that the Government says, look, it's a

:02:31.:02:33.

serious motion, the Government position has to be on display, the

:02:34.:02:36.

Government has to say if it's for or against it, the Government

:02:36.:02:39.

decided it was against it, it thought it would be wrong at this

:02:39.:02:47.

particular time when we've got the euro in crisis and us unsure about

:02:47.:02:51.

what's happening, unsure about whether they'll be able to create a

:02:51.:02:56.

rescue package. The reality is that Britain still gets caught by what

:02:56.:02:59.

happens in Europe although they are out of the euro and I celebrate

:02:59.:03:04.

that every day. Now is not the time to push for a set referendum, nor

:03:04.:03:07.

is the time to get ourselves complicated with this motion. The

:03:07.:03:09.

Government was going to vote against it, the Government in power

:03:09.:03:14.

has the rigt to say to backbenchers, look, we don't think you should

:03:14.:03:22.

vote for this -- right. Hang on, we are... Can I finish the point.

:03:22.:03:24.

Having rebelled myself over Maastricht and Europe before, the

:03:24.:03:29.

simple point is this... And defying a three line whip? Yes, if you feel

:03:29.:03:35.

strongly enough about something, then you take that principal and

:03:35.:03:40.

make a decision and those that did voted against. The thought that you

:03:40.:03:43.

can bully and cajole everybody that did is nonsense. I didn't when my

:03:43.:03:48.

moment was right and they didn't this time and that's fine. The

:03:48.:03:53.

three line whip is about policy and they have to take their own choices.

:03:53.:03:56.

When you were running for the leadership of the party, Mrs

:03:57.:04:04.

Thatcher said of you, about that defying a three line whip, he put

:04:05.:04:08.

his integrity before his ambition. Is this an occasion on which you

:04:08.:04:11.

put your ambition before your integrity? No, I don't have an

:04:11.:04:15.

ambition. I came into Government for one reason and one reason only,

:04:15.:04:19.

to try and reform welfare and change society, that is my purpose

:04:19.:04:23.

in being in here. I've spent the last eight years with the Centre

:04:23.:04:26.

for Social Justice, trying to get to a position where we actually at

:04:26.:04:31.

last could reform welfare to change that culture of entitlement and

:04:31.:04:34.

dependency. That's why I'm here. When it comes to Europe, I'm clear

:04:34.:04:37.

about my position, as is the Government. We believe there needs

:04:37.:04:40.

to be a re-adjustment of that relationship. The question in front

:04:40.:04:44.

of us on Monday, David, was very simple - do you think this motion,

:04:44.:04:47.

which had two or three different items in it was the right motion to

:04:47.:04:51.

put to the British public - the answer is no, I the do not think

:04:51.:04:55.

that was the case. On a free vote, you would have voted against it?

:04:55.:04:58.

my position was that it was the wrong motion and I retain that.

:04:58.:05:02.

It's important for a Government to have an opinion and view and if

:05:02.:05:06.

backbenchers feel strongly about that, that's fine, don't weep too

:05:06.:05:10.

many tears about people making the choice, if they have the guts or

:05:10.:05:15.

courage, call them to account. The woman in the third row there?

:05:15.:05:19.

Arguably, a lot of the policies that come to Parliament are made up

:05:19.:05:23.

by Parliament and by Government itself. As far as I'm aware, this

:05:23.:05:28.

came from a pole that was suggested by the Prime Minister himself.

:05:28.:05:32.

the public vote? By the public. Does that not prove that there was

:05:32.:05:39.

a want from the public to have this referendum? And therefore why

:05:39.:05:43.

shouldn't we? Nigel Farage, what do you make of the Government's

:05:43.:05:47.

position? The idea that e-petitions could spark this, it was a great

:05:47.:05:50.

idea, young people thought it was great, they could engage with the

:05:50.:05:54.

process. And at the first time it succeeds, we get a debate on the

:05:54.:05:58.

floor of the House of Commons, cynically, the three party leader

:05:58.:06:02.

close down free speech, free voting on this issue and people will ask

:06:02.:06:06.

themselves, is there any point in future in bothering to get

:06:06.:06:09.

signatures on these e-petitions and that I think is really rather sad.

:06:09.:06:13.

But the answer to the question is very simple - why no freedom of

:06:13.:06:17.

vote - very easily, the political class in this country, all three

:06:17.:06:20.

political parties who're represented here on this platform

:06:20.:06:24.

have made their minds up. They've made their minds up that we must be

:06:24.:06:29.

part of this new European state and the one thing they will absolutely

:06:29.:06:34.

make sure we can never ever do is express our opinion on it. David

:06:34.:06:39.

Cameron himself, the man who of course gave a cast iron guarantee

:06:39.:06:46.

that he'd give us a referendum... That's rubbish. No, That's what he

:06:46.:06:49.

wrote. Nigel, the Government's given the public a referendum on

:06:49.:06:53.

any future treaty. I voted for that at Maastricht and they have a

:06:53.:06:58.

referendum. Oh, please. So don't say they'll never have a vote on

:06:58.:07:02.

anything. This is so weak. This is the game you play in which you try

:07:02.:07:06.

and cast everybody as an extremist. Your leader wrote in the Sun

:07:06.:07:10.

newspaper, I give you this cast iron guarantee that if I'm the

:07:10.:07:13.

Prime Minister, the British will have their say on the

:07:13.:07:17.

Constitutional Treaty. He's broken his promise and I must say, I think

:07:17.:07:21.

Cameron, Clegg and Miliband are wrong. The last time we discussed

:07:21.:07:25.

the most important constitutional question of our generation was back

:07:25.:07:29.

in 1975. It's a long time ago. You have to be over 54. My parents

:07:29.:07:35.

voted yes, they voted for a Common Market. Not for political union.

:07:35.:07:39.

There are 30 million of us under the age of 54 who've never been

:07:39.:07:43.

asked. I thought what happened in the Commons on Monday was a

:07:43.:07:53.
:07:53.:07:54.

disgrace. As yew rightly said, all three main

:07:54.:07:57.

political parties whipped their members to vote against this.

:07:57.:08:01.

Gloria De Piero, do you think that was the right decision by Labour,

:08:01.:08:04.

given, as the woman there said, that this was the British public

:08:04.:08:09.

saying they wanted a vote on this issue? Why weren't mens given a

:08:09.:08:12.

free vote? I think the Labour Party were in exactly the right place and

:08:12.:08:15.

the gentleman asked the question about, should you put the interests

:08:15.:08:19.

of your constituents above a three line whip. I take my responsibility

:08:19.:08:23.

as a representative, the MP for Ashfield, really, really seriously,

:08:23.:08:27.

and I go out every week and I knock on doors in Ashfield and I

:08:27.:08:32.

absolutely hand on heart say to you that, I'm not saying it never comes

:08:32.:08:37.

up, it probably comes up genuinely one out of 100 doors and I will

:08:37.:08:40.

tell you what people want to talk to me about, they want to talk to

:08:40.:08:43.

me about their fears for the economy, about the fears for jobs,

:08:43.:08:49.

about the fears for their children and there are also talking to me

:08:49.:08:54.

about the lack of police presence. That is genuinely what I see. I was

:08:54.:08:58.

in the chamber on Monday and, honestly, I've been an MP for 18

:08:59.:09:03.

months, and I looked at the Conservative benchers and I've

:09:03.:09:07.

never seen such passion, such electricity. You know, there were

:09:07.:09:10.

points where I thought Halloween might have come early, people were

:09:10.:09:14.

kind of almost frothing at the mouth at some point and I just

:09:14.:09:19.

thought, you know what... Kate Hoey and people like that, you mean,

:09:19.:09:23.

your own members? Excuse me. I heard one Conservative MP speak in

:09:23.:09:28.

favour of his party leader and he got jeered from his own side.

:09:28.:09:32.

do you deduce from this? I'll tell you something. If I saw a fraction

:09:32.:09:37.

of the passion and the emotion that I saw on Monday night in that

:09:37.:09:41.

chamber about having 16,000 fewer police officers, then maybe...

:09:41.:09:45.

don't appear to be answering the question that Nigel Dallard asked

:09:45.:09:49.

which was over 100,000 people asked for this debate. Why couldn't the

:09:49.:09:54.

parties leave MPs to make their minds up. It doesn't matter how you

:09:54.:09:58.

would have voted had you not been whipped, but your parties were told

:09:58.:10:03.

how to vote? It's about leadership. I know that people have a Downer on

:10:03.:10:07.

the political class, even if you don't like politicians. Let me say

:10:07.:10:12.

this, business leaders, Trade Union leaders, if it was really that bad

:10:12.:10:15.

for British jobs and British business, wouldn't they be leading

:10:15.:10:18.

the cause, but they're not because they know it's the right thing to

:10:18.:10:25.

do to stay in Europe for prosperity. You, Sir? Hypothetically, if

:10:25.:10:32.

British was to leave the European Union and that would surely damage

:10:32.:10:34.

our relationship with the other countries in the European Union who

:10:34.:10:39.

we do an awful lot of trade with? We are going to talk about that in

:10:39.:10:42.

a moment. That's not the question we are talking about now, which is

:10:42.:10:45.

whether or not MPs should have been able to decide on a referendum or

:10:45.:10:49.

not. We'll perhaps come back to that. You, Sir? If now is not the

:10:49.:10:53.

right time, when is the right time going to be, Iain? I agree. Do you

:10:53.:10:57.

want me to answer that? Yes. There's got to be a genuine

:10:57.:10:59.

discussion about what our relationship with Europe should be

:10:59.:11:09.
:11:09.:11:19.

pand what that means in terms of the powers that Europe and we hold

:11:19.:11:24.

-- and what that means. We are in danger of the euro going into

:11:24.:11:27.

meltdown which would suck us down with it. What the Government was

:11:27.:11:30.

worrying about, legitimately, was to start down the process of

:11:30.:11:33.

suggesting at that time that there was a process of referendum leading

:11:33.:11:36.

to all sorts of dislocations later to the rest of Europe would cause

:11:36.:11:41.

all sorts of problems. This was not the time to start that process.

:11:41.:11:45.

That was the reason why. Thank you. Jo Swinson, I want to put a quote

:11:45.:11:50.

to you, this was from you in 2008, there's been a debate on Britain's

:11:50.:11:54.

role in Europe for years without voters having had the chance to

:11:54.:11:58.

give their opinion in the ball bot box. It's been over 30 years since

:11:58.:12:02.

the British had a say. To deny them the vote would be a travesty of

:12:02.:12:10.

justice and you voted against a referendum. Why? B -- ballot box?

:12:10.:12:13.

voted on the manifesto which said next time there was a change

:12:13.:12:18.

orpowers in a treaty to Europe from Britain, there should be a

:12:18.:12:22.

referendum on our role within Europe. Not only have we stuck to

:12:22.:12:26.

that, we've actually legislated to mean that that is what has to

:12:26.:12:30.

happen. So, there will be a referendum if there is a future

:12:31.:12:34.

change of powers between our relationship with the EU. To answer

:12:34.:12:39.

Nigel's question directly - I mean first of all, I would say that

:12:39.:12:42.

although parties whip, every MP I believe has to take responsibility

:12:42.:12:45.

for the way they vote. It's not some kind of cop out to say, well,

:12:45.:12:50.

I was whipped, because it's always a decision an individual MP can

:12:50.:12:55.

make. Obviously, the Government and indeed the opposition presents a

:12:55.:12:58.

programme that they are outlining and for that to have coherence,

:12:58.:13:02.

they'll have a line that they will whip on so that you're not just

:13:02.:13:05.

having a group of independents that aren't actually working together as

:13:05.:13:10.

a team. But, each MP at each vote and decision still has the

:13:10.:13:13.

responsibility and the right to make a different decision if they

:13:13.:13:19.

think that is what was right. On Monday night, we had just had a

:13:19.:13:25.

debt crisis summit on Sunday in Europe with a follow up due to

:13:25.:13:29.

happen on Wednesday and, bearing in mind that, as Gloria says, the

:13:29.:13:32.

issues that most of my constituents say they're most concerned about

:13:32.:13:37.

are the jobs, the economy and their future, given that half of our

:13:37.:13:43.

trade is with Europe and the EU and given that 3.5 million jobs in the

:13:43.:13:48.

UK depend on the EU, I think in the middle of that debt crisis, our

:13:48.:13:52.

priority has to absolutely be sorting out the eurozone crisis.

:13:52.:13:56.

just to clarify the point - the petition from the British public

:13:56.:14:00.

that was meant to incite a debate in the House of Commons... It did.

:14:00.:14:04.

Does not mean that MPs should obey party discipline, in other words

:14:04.:14:09.

it's not an invitation to a conscience fro vote by MPs? Free

:14:09.:14:14.

votes should be that, on the matters of conscience. Every MP can

:14:14.:14:18.

decide how they vote. Let's have another couple of members of the

:14:18.:14:22.

audience. The man with spectacles? There were stories of aggressive

:14:22.:14:26.

and abuse you have texts being sent by the whips to Members of

:14:27.:14:31.

Parliament, I would like to know if the panel thinks that's sound

:14:32.:14:41.
:14:42.:14:43.

I think this is a difficult issue, because the crisis going on in

:14:43.:14:49.

Europe is enormous at the moment. We are all pretending that these

:14:49.:14:53.

bail-outs and thing will help, but it's very clear to almost all that

:14:53.:14:57.

the only way of saving the euro is for the eurozone to essentially

:14:57.:15:01.

become one country, with a single government. This is a huge change

:15:01.:15:05.

in the make-up of Europe and the idea this would be a good moment

:15:06.:15:09.

when we are facing this enormous development, if it happens, that it

:15:09.:15:15.

would be a good moment to start talking about repatriating appeal

:15:15.:15:18.

laws or straight cucumbers, I do believe that David Cameron is

:15:18.:15:22.

committed to a referendum. I don't have any problem with that at all.

:15:22.:15:27.

He's put it in the manifesto and I'm sure he means to deal with it

:15:27.:15:31.

when the manifesto condition comes through, but the idea that this is

:15:31.:15:38.

now a time to start fiddling, when we may be looking after a enormous

:15:38.:15:42.

recession if the euro goes under and the last few days have not been

:15:42.:15:47.

very encouraging. I think, in life, timing is everything. I'm as euro

:15:47.:15:53.

sceptic as the next man - well, not probably as this next man - but

:15:53.:15:56.

nevertheless, I think there is a moment where you have to allow the

:15:56.:15:59.

Government to deal with the really important stuff. The woman here in

:15:59.:16:07.

the third row. I think it's fine to have a referendum on Europe and the

:16:07.:16:11.

British role in it, provided that the British voting public is

:16:11.:16:14.

equipped with the information that they need to make an informed

:16:14.:16:19.

choice. And the person up there. What good is David Cameron saying

:16:19.:16:23.

that there will be a referendum if any more powers will be brought to

:16:23.:16:29.

the EU, when the previous government signed the Lisbon Treaty

:16:29.:16:36.

and a lot of our powers have gone to Europe? 75% of our laws. That is

:16:36.:16:44.

just wrong, Nigel. Hold on. true. Wait, panel. Some years ago

:16:44.:16:51.

the Irish government or the Irish people voted in a referendum

:16:51.:16:56.

against part of the EU and for the next year they were bullied and

:16:56.:16:59.

blackmailed and everything until they changed their mind. Isn't that

:16:59.:17:03.

likely to happen to us? You don't think there is a merit in the

:17:03.:17:06.

referendum, because the Government will have their way in the end?

:17:06.:17:11.

think we have to be very careful. question now from Simon Davies.

:17:11.:17:16.

Does the eurozone debt agreement mean the UK is now a second-class

:17:16.:17:21.

citizen? Let me repeat this, because it is echoing here. Does

:17:21.:17:24.

the eurozone debt agreement mean the UK is now a second-class

:17:24.:17:31.

country in the EU? Jo Swinson? don't think it has to mean that,

:17:31.:17:35.

but I think that the question that Simon's posing is one that it's

:17:35.:17:39.

important for us to be disgusting, because there is a danger of that.

:17:39.:17:42.

-- discussing, because there is a danger of that. The euro and the

:17:42.:17:47.

zone is in a very, very difficult place at the moment. Last night's

:17:47.:17:51.

deal was positive, but it's far from out of the woods yet. If the

:17:51.:17:55.

euro is going to be able to continue and survive, then those

:17:55.:17:59.

countries are going to have to come closer in terms of their tax and

:17:59.:18:03.

spending and the way that their economies are running and obviously

:18:03.:18:06.

some decisions and co-ordination between the 17 countries will need

:18:06.:18:10.

to be done. There is a genuine danger that as one of the ten

:18:10.:18:16.

countries not in the eurozone, that the UK could somehow be left out. I

:18:16.:18:20.

think that as the negotiations go on, that is what is absolutely

:18:20.:18:23.

crucial in Britain's national interest, to make sure that we get

:18:23.:18:28.

that relationship right. Where are the threats that you foresee? What

:18:28.:18:33.

is it that could do damage to us? For example, if it were to fall

:18:33.:18:37.

into the habit that the decisions were being made by a sort of caucus

:18:37.:18:41.

of the 17 countries, that they formed lines on a range of issues

:18:41.:18:45.

that were nothing to do with the euro and the specifics of the zone,

:18:45.:18:49.

then I think that would be not helpful. The Government is already

:18:50.:18:55.

actually doing a lot to mitigate against this, so Ed Davey is

:18:55.:18:59.

working with about 14 other countries on measures to increase

:18:59.:19:02.

deregulation and to promote growth with like-minded countries and a

:19:02.:19:06.

lot of that goes on and should continue. We need to build up those

:19:06.:19:12.

relationships, but it's a good question. I think, if you like,

:19:12.:19:15.

that is where the genuine debate needs to be have, to make sure

:19:15.:19:20.

Britain plays a strong and leading role in Europe for the future.

:19:20.:19:28.

Nigel, I'll come to you later. Gloria De Piero from Labour's point

:19:28.:19:31.

of view, does it mean what has happened in Europe over yesterday

:19:31.:19:37.

and over the last few days, mean we are in a position of a second-class

:19:37.:19:45.

member of the EU? Not if we have political leadership. And by that I

:19:45.:19:50.

mean that our Prime Minister is focused on getting around that

:19:50.:19:55.

table, putting forward the British case, and not arguing with his own

:19:55.:19:59.

MPs. My goodness, I can't honestly believe that we could be in this

:19:59.:20:03.

position again, 18 months into a Tory Government. I remember when I

:20:03.:20:08.

was in my youth in my teens seeing the Tories tear themselves over

:20:08.:20:12.

this issue. The reason my interest in the zone working is because I

:20:12.:20:19.

care about British jobs and British businesses. If a business here or

:20:19.:20:23.

in my constituency is thinking can I take on some more workers or

:20:23.:20:27.

perhaps could I expand? If they are making goods then they are going to

:20:27.:20:33.

think about who they'll sell them to. You say it is important that

:20:33.:20:37.

the British Prime Minister plays the strong hand in Europe. You

:20:37.:20:41.

remember the French President, Sarkozy, saying to Cameron, "We are

:20:41.:20:45.

sick of you criticising us and telling us what to do. You say you

:20:45.:20:50.

hate the euro and now you want to interfere in our meeting." It's a

:20:50.:20:55.

badge of honour. That sounds like someone playing a firm hand and

:20:55.:20:59.

your leader says, "You spoke not just for France, but for Britain as

:20:59.:21:04.

well." What did he mean? I suspect he was thinking for many Tory MPs

:21:04.:21:08.

as well when he said, "You come along at the last minute and you

:21:08.:21:11.

lecture us." Be serious, you say you want the Prime Minister to be

:21:11.:21:15.

strong and he appears to do so and the French President objects and

:21:15.:21:20.

the leader of the Labour Party says the French President is right.

:21:20.:21:24.

think the point was that if you go around being so critical and

:21:24.:21:28.

negative, actually, lowering your own MPs because your own position

:21:28.:21:32.

depends on it, into that kind of false sense of security to think

:21:32.:21:38.

that David Cameron might be up for renegotiating all these issues.

:21:38.:21:42.

don't think we should interfere in the eurozone and give advice or say

:21:42.:21:46.

what suits us? Yes, of course, we should. Say what you like about

:21:46.:21:55.

Gordon Brown, when I was a reporter, the G20 - Who is saying what they

:21:55.:22:00.

like about Gordon Brown? I was really proud to be a Brit, because

:22:00.:22:04.

people were looking to Gordon Brown for a solution to a global

:22:04.:22:09.

financial crisis and that made me proud. Not the Labour Party though!

:22:09.:22:14.

That made me proud to be British and I would like to see that kind

:22:14.:22:17.

of leadership from David Cameron. David, you said that my views would

:22:17.:22:20.

The headlines: Stock market surge after Europe's leaders strike a

:22:20.:22:21.

provoke the panel. I hope they do. deal to double the eurozone and

:22:21.:22:23.

I think the political class in this rescue fund.

:22:23.:22:26.

The French President says Greece and every other class has got this

:22:26.:22:27.

should not have been allowed to whole debt crisis completely and

:22:27.:22:29.

join the euro. Greece says it is utterly wrong and the people's of -

:22:29.:22:31.

not the source of the current - the peoples of Europe are waking

:22:31.:22:33.

problems. Serial killer Robert Black is found

:22:33.:22:34.

up to the fact that what we are doing in the name of saving the

:22:34.:22:36.

guilty of the murder of nine-year- zone is making things far, far

:22:36.:22:40.

old Jennifer Cardy, 30 years ago. worse. We are imprisoning countries

:22:40.:22:42.

The canon of St Paul's cathedral in the south of Europe inside

:22:42.:22:43.

something they should never have steps down over the handling of the

:22:43.:22:46.

joined. It is leading to violence process camp on his doorstep.

:22:46.:22:49.

would like the camps to move on because I think he has an effect on

:22:49.:22:55.

small traders, ordinary people in the area, but I am not prepared to

:22:55.:23:00.

sanction the use of force. Saving Bangkok from floods. Thousands of

:23:00.:23:10.
:23:10.:23:23.

people fully as an emergency five- and disorder on the streets. The

:23:23.:23:25.

The French President says it is a British will have to be relegated

:23:25.:23:27.

plan that has saved the world from to the status of a country likely

:23:27.:23:31.

catastrophe. Markets around the globe have surged following the

:23:31.:23:32.

deal to contain eurozone debt Switzerland. I thought it doesn't

:23:32.:23:35.

sound too bad to me. If it means we crisis. It is hoped the agreement,

:23:35.:23:37.

have the same terms of trade with reached by leaders of the 17 and

:23:38.:23:39.

euros countries this morning, will Europe, that is good by me. If it

:23:39.:23:41.

be enough to prevent the collapse means we are one of the richest

:23:41.:23:45.

countries in Europe per capita that is good by me, and if it means we

:23:45.:23:49.

can have referendums that are meaningful, but I would argue that

:23:49.:23:54.

what we want to do is free trade with Europe and be good

:23:54.:23:58.

neighboursened, but let's become not a second-class citizen. Let's

:23:58.:24:01.

become a first-class country in the world. That is the future for this

:24:01.:24:11.
:24:11.:24:12.

country. Iain Duncan Smith. reality now, I think, is something

:24:12.:24:15.

that those of us who are against the euro from the beginning and I

:24:15.:24:19.

was and when I was leader I was pleased that we led the party never

:24:19.:24:23.

to join and I never want the country to join, because I think

:24:23.:24:25.

it's been enormously damaging to some of the countries in Europe and

:24:25.:24:29.

they are in deep trouble as a result. I think the real issue here

:24:29.:24:38.

is what has happened now is reality has struck. Today, -- That was

:24:38.:24:41.

reality striking. You speak in a church tanned just happens! The

:24:41.:24:46.

point is that reality has struck and it means you cannot have a

:24:46.:24:50.

single currency without full, political union, which is where you

:24:50.:24:53.

have centralised taxation and control from a centralised

:24:53.:24:56.

organisation like the Government. The point about this is, that is

:24:56.:24:59.

what will happen for the eurozone countries, so I don't think this is

:24:59.:25:03.

an issue about being left behind for Britain, or relegated. The

:25:03.:25:06.

reality is I don't recall that the United States has been relegated,

:25:06.:25:10.

but they are not part of the euro and nor are lot of other countries

:25:10.:25:14.

thank you very much indeed and Britain has the capacity to trade

:25:14.:25:18.

and deliver for its own country, run by the people that are elected

:25:18.:25:22.

by this country, but still at the same time, with a good relationship

:25:22.:25:26.

with Europe and trading and co- operating. You don't have to go

:25:26.:25:32.

into the euro to remain prosperous and self-governing and that's a

:25:32.:25:37.

good idea. Probably in the First Division. Are you saying there is

:25:37.:25:42.

no danger to Britain's position in the EU, which after all the United

:25:42.:25:50.

States isn't, in those who are in the eurozone taking measureures --

:25:50.:25:55.

measures that will damage us? these will be matters that are

:25:55.:25:59.

hugely going to be debates and rows. David Cameron, for example, when he

:25:59.:26:04.

was having this row with the French President, which I think was rather

:26:04.:26:08.

wonderful moment when they snipped at him and they snipped for one

:26:08.:26:12.

reason, because he had said that whatever else you do, the member of

:26:12.:26:15.

the EU have a right and say over what happens next and that was the

:26:15.:26:19.

point. He made that point and had that carried on Wednesday. The key

:26:19.:26:24.

point is of coursual you'll have debates, but the reality is that

:26:24.:26:29.

there will be two parts of Europe. There will be eurozone that has to

:26:29.:26:33.

plunge deeper and those outside who will trade and co-operate but do

:26:33.:26:35.

not want to plummet into the single currency, which the Labour Party

:26:36.:26:45.

wants to do. I find it amazing that the Liberal Democrats, who voted

:26:45.:26:50.

consistently that Britain should take up the euro, haven't

:26:51.:26:55.

apologised for that. I think that many on the Labour side as well

:26:55.:27:00.

voted we should take up the euro. Very haven't apologised for that.

:27:00.:27:04.

Joining the euro would have been an awful mistake and I think the

:27:04.:27:06.

Conservatives deserve full credit for not taking us into the euro.

:27:06.:27:13.

What do you think about the position now? If Iain Duncan Smith

:27:13.:27:17.

is right and it's got to become a political entity? I think Britain

:27:17.:27:21.

needs to focus on improving productivity and getting industries

:27:21.:27:25.

-- rather attracting leading industries. I think that is the

:27:25.:27:29.

thing that will rescue Britain. question of second-rate status in

:27:29.:27:32.

Europe? None at all. Julian Fellowes. Nigel reminds me of the

:27:32.:27:36.

man who was asked for directions and said, "If I would you, I

:27:36.:27:42.

wouldn't start from me." The truth is this, this is where we are. It

:27:42.:27:46.

is becoming as Iain Duncan Smith said, very clear, that the eurozone

:27:46.:27:49.

is going to have to effectively become one country with state

:27:49.:27:52.

differences like in America or whatever, but it is going to be one

:27:52.:27:56.

country. I think that is quite wrong for Britain. I do not think

:27:56.:28:00.

we would be content in that relationship and if the price of

:28:00.:28:04.

staying out of it, is to be viewed as some kind of second thing, it's

:28:04.:28:08.

a price we have to pay, but I don't think it's a done deal, because the

:28:08.:28:12.

new Europe that emerges will be different. We will have a different

:28:12.:28:15.

relationship. We'll have the States in it and the States not in it. I

:28:15.:28:21.

think we will be happier, not in it. Thank you very much. We must move

:28:21.:28:31.
:28:31.:28:35.

on. If you want to tweet toify, remember our hash tag: -- tonight,

:28:35.:28:45.
:28:45.:28:48.

remember our hash tag is: James Kirkwood has the next question.

:28:48.:28:58.
:28:58.:28:59.

Would Jesus have cleared the temple of demonstrators? St Paul's. Julian

:28:59.:29:04.

Fellowes. I think it's rather harsh to alone line them with money

:29:04.:29:07.

lenders. This is a difficult issue, because you have got two points,

:29:07.:29:12.

one, do we like the fact we live in a country where you are allowed to

:29:12.:29:14.

protest against the Government or policy without any reper

:29:14.:29:18.

suggestions? Yes, we do. However, the other one is do they have the

:29:18.:29:22.

right to spoil the place, to spoil Parliament Square and spoil St

:29:22.:29:30.

Paul's and so on? You are weighing the two up. It's a tricky one. I'm

:29:30.:29:35.

not completely convinced that St Paul's played it correctly and that

:29:35.:29:37.

the health and safety considerations precipitated their

:29:37.:29:43.

actions, but nevertheless, even if they did, in the end what is more

:29:43.:29:47.

important that a place of beauty is kept charming for tourists and

:29:47.:29:51.

everything else and I don't that is unimportant, but is it more

:29:51.:29:55.

important than the right to protest without the fear of midnight

:29:55.:30:05.
:30:05.:30:13.

arrests and police thumping over APPLAUSE

:30:14.:30:17.

The health and safety concerns are obviously very much in the

:30:17.:30:21.

forefront of St Paul's Cathedral's mind. The first on the list was the

:30:21.:30:29.

risk of walking into or tripping over guy ropes attached to trees,

:30:29.:30:32.

ballards and lampposts. Jo Swinson, what do you think of this snfpblgts

:30:32.:30:37.

I certainly understand the anger the protestors are feeling -- I

:30:37.:30:43.

certainly understand the anger the protestors are feeling. You

:30:43.:30:46.

understand about the massive pay differentials we see in the

:30:46.:30:48.

corporate world and the duflttys people face because of the debt

:30:48.:30:53.

crisis that we are facing in Europe and the problems in our own country

:30:53.:30:56.

-- difficulties. It's a very, very difficult time and absolutely

:30:56.:31:00.

Julian is right, people have the right the to protest. What is sad

:31:00.:31:04.

about this case and seeing the interview with Dr Fraser who'd

:31:04.:31:11.

resigned earlier on today, came across incredibly honourable,

:31:11.:31:15.

thoughtful and who couldn't deal with this on his conscience, at the

:31:15.:31:18.

same time not criticising his colleagues. What is said is that I

:31:18.:31:21.

don't think it's actually doing anyone any good any more. It's

:31:21.:31:25.

clearly not good for St Paul's, it's not good for the local

:31:25.:31:29.

shopkeepers and traders who are losing out and who I'm sure are not

:31:29.:31:33.

actually the target of the people who're protesting, but I think it's

:31:33.:31:37.

almost getting to the stage where it's not even helpful to the

:31:37.:31:40.

protestors because what are we discussing tonight - the location

:31:40.:31:43.

and whether or not they should be in St Paul's and perhaps if they

:31:43.:31:46.

were able to come to an agreement to move to a different location,

:31:46.:31:49.

the focus could be again on what they are protesting about and the

:31:49.:31:55.

real issues, rather than this row. What is a useful protest and what

:31:55.:32:00.

is not? I do not think it's up to the police to decide and go in, but

:32:00.:32:04.

I think it would be helpful if people could get round a table and

:32:04.:32:07.

recognise that if they were to agree to move to another location,

:32:07.:32:10.

they might get the discussion on the media back into the discussions

:32:10.:32:15.

they are protesting about, rather than the fuss about St Paul's.

:32:15.:32:22.

Sir? The reaction of the people running St Paul's, I remember as a

:32:22.:32:28.

child being a cockney born and bred and still proud of it, that it

:32:28.:32:34.

never closed during the war. Why now? These people do not threaten

:32:34.:32:41.

St Paults's -- St Paul's like bombs and rockets did. Why are we doing

:32:41.:32:45.

this? There is absolutely no need for it. Iain Duncan Smith, do you

:32:45.:32:49.

want to answer that? I'm with the gentleman here. I am responsible,

:32:49.:32:53.

by the way, for health and safety, so I just want to say something.

:32:53.:32:58.

They're often blamed for all of this, but no-one checks with health

:32:58.:33:01.

and safety whether or not there is a risk so I don't know but I must

:33:01.:33:04.

say, I'm suspicious about the fact that the general public can't be

:33:04.:33:07.

allowed to negotiate their own way into St Paul's without causing

:33:07.:33:10.

problems. That's the first point, so I think sometimes it's like

:33:10.:33:14.

Wimbledon during the summer when they close the mound and said

:33:14.:33:16.

health and safety when the Health and Safety Executive said don't be

:33:16.:33:19.

stupid, people have been sliding down grassy slopes with rain for

:33:19.:33:22.

years, so let's get this in perspective. The second thing I

:33:22.:33:28.

want to say is that, I think the issue - I agree with Julian to a

:33:28.:33:32.

point - but when does it stop being a protest and become simply a way

:33:32.:33:36.

of life. And, in Westminster, in Parliament Square, it's ridiculous.

:33:37.:33:40.

They've been camped out there. When you ask them what they are doing,

:33:40.:33:44.

most aren't there on a protest, they're there because that's the

:33:44.:33:48.

place to be. The result of all of it, it's become a desecration of

:33:48.:33:51.

Parliament Square and it's time for them to move on and we get silly

:33:52.:33:56.

about it. The other thing I want to say, about St Paul's, which I find

:33:56.:33:59.

strange. When we looked at it through the heat cameras, we found

:33:59.:34:03.

that so much for their protests, when it got a bit dark and cold,

:34:03.:34:08.

they went home. I don't know why St Paul's didn't go out, clear the

:34:08.:34:15.

area overnight and give the tents to the real homeless.

:34:15.:34:18.

APPLAUSE You, Sir? I personally find it

:34:18.:34:21.

highly ironic that the Government of this country provides weapons

:34:21.:34:25.

and air supports to violent protestors in other countries, yet

:34:25.:34:30.

does everything it can to discredit peaceful protests... It hasn't done

:34:30.:34:35.

anything of the sort, they've been there for three years. What you

:34:35.:34:39.

just said wasn't true, the tents that showed up on the heat imaging

:34:39.:34:47.

cameras were ones that had gas heaters inside. Nigel Farage?

:34:47.:34:52.

we are in Winchester Cathedral, and how would you feel, as residents of

:34:52.:34:56.

Winchester, if the new Dale Farm was set up outside the gates and

:34:56.:34:59.

you couldn't have come to this show or to worship on a Sunday. You

:34:59.:35:02.

would be angry about it. So the answer is that Jesus would have

:35:02.:35:06.

cleared them away on the basis that they were stopping religious

:35:06.:35:09.

services from continuing and because I feel that so many of the

:35:09.:35:15.

people that are there, getting back to Ian's point, actually are the

:35:15.:35:19.

sons and daughters of daddy who's a successful banker in the city and

:35:19.:35:25.

they go home to Hampstead in the evening and come back with a packed

:35:25.:35:30.

lunch mummy's made them the next day. The elements aren't genuine. I

:35:30.:35:34.

hope they are removed and the absolute deadline before we get

:35:34.:35:37.

tough ought to be Remembrance Sunday because if they were still

:35:37.:35:41.

there, and if there was a problem with Remembrance Sunday services

:35:41.:35:44.

going ahead, that really would be wrong.

:35:44.:35:48.

APPLAUSE The woman up there?

:35:48.:35:51.

Yes? Nigel Farage criticises his perceived lack of democracy in

:35:51.:35:55.

Europe, yet when there is true democracy on the streets, you want

:35:55.:36:00.

it gotten rid of. No, I'm happy with protest, absolutely happy with

:36:00.:36:04.

protest. I mean, surely we want protest, but to we want religious

:36:04.:36:08.

services in one of the most important churchs in this country

:36:08.:36:14.

stopped? I don't think we do. That's not reasonable protest.

:36:14.:36:19.

Gloria? When I was in my teens, I went on a lot of demos, slept out

:36:19.:36:25.

in protest at the homeless and you know, it's part of my political

:36:25.:36:29.

awakening and I respected people's right to do their thing, obviously

:36:29.:36:35.

lots of people don't have time to protest in that way but still feel

:36:35.:36:38.

incredible anger about the fact that we continue to pay for the

:36:38.:36:43.

mistakes of the bankers while they seem not to be suffering so much.

:36:43.:36:49.

That is why, for instance, we are saying, as a Labour Party, repeat

:36:49.:36:54.

the bankers' bonus tax and get 100,000 young people back into work.

:36:54.:36:59.

Thank you. I would agree with you, Nigel, about Remembrance Sunday. We

:36:59.:37:02.

respect your right to protest, but please also respect our right to

:37:02.:37:07.

pay tribute to those who've paid the ultimate sacrifice. And allowed

:37:07.:37:11.

you to protest, exactly. The man in the spectacles there? I would like

:37:11.:37:14.

to understand how sitting in a tent with a mask on, hurling abuse at

:37:14.:37:21.

people going to work is actually helping the global economy? OK. And

:37:21.:37:26.

you, Sir? I think Jesus might scratch his beard at being asked

:37:26.:37:33.

for �14.50 to go into St Paul's in the first place.

:37:33.:37:39.

APPLAUSE On that note, let's move on.

:37:39.:37:44.

Rosalind Barnes, please? Can the prison system cope with an

:37:44.:37:48.

increase in mandatory and life sentences?

:37:48.:37:55.

These are the new sentences that Kenneth Clarke announced today for

:37:55.:38:01.

violent or sexual offenders on the one hand having mandatory life and

:38:01.:38:05.

on the other hand youths with knives getting a mandatory prison

:38:05.:38:09.

sentence. Can the system cope? It was Labour, of course, that

:38:09.:38:12.

introduced what are called indeterminate sentences where you

:38:12.:38:15.

just, as Ken Clarke was saying, stay there until you're given

:38:15.:38:20.

parole and he thought this was a tougher and better route. Is it in

:38:20.:38:25.

your view? It's not tough enough, in my view, and let me tell you why.

:38:25.:38:29.

What Labour did... Not tough enough it's less tough than what Labour

:38:29.:38:33.

done? It is less tough and I'll tell you why. If somebody had

:38:33.:38:40.

committed a very serious crime, I'm talking paedophiles, serious sexual

:38:40.:38:47.

assaults, murder, then you go to prison. It was our view that you

:38:47.:38:52.

should not be released from prison until you could prove to the Parole

:38:52.:38:55.

Board that you would no longer be a danger.

:38:55.:39:00.

And, you know, not very many people passed that test and so it concerns

:39:00.:39:05.

me that what Ken Clarke has said today, and actually he's had to be

:39:05.:39:08.

dragged kicking and screaming to this position, is taking away that

:39:08.:39:12.

check, so he's saying, if you commit a serious crime for the

:39:13.:39:20.

second time, then you will have a life sentence that.'s removing a

:39:20.:39:25.

very precautionary measure and a protection that we introduced. On

:39:25.:39:30.

knife crime, if I may go on to that - what David Cameron said during

:39:30.:39:36.

the election is that if you are found with a knife, you will go to

:39:36.:39:41.

prison. Today, that has changed to, if you are found threatening

:39:41.:39:46.

somebody with a knife and if you are between 16 and 18 or over 16

:39:46.:39:50.

years old, you would go to prison. So I'm interested also in what

:39:50.:39:56.

happens if you are 15, if you have been carrying a knife per say. If I

:39:56.:40:00.

could just make one final point. I'm quite concerned about the

:40:00.:40:05.

sounds that I'm getting from this Government on crime and law and

:40:05.:40:10.

order. 16,000 fewer police officers. They're going to scrap antisocial

:40:10.:40:13.

behaviour orders, they are making it harder to erect CCTV. This is

:40:13.:40:16.

not what people are telling me in my constituency. I don't believe

:40:16.:40:21.

it's where the British people are. Can the prison system cope was the

:40:21.:40:25.

question in increased sentences? You have to make the prison system

:40:25.:40:28.

cope because I don't think people want the Government interfering a

:40:28.:40:32.

lot in their lives. I think Governments have one responsibility

:40:32.:40:36.

to the people they represent to provide prosperity and to keep them

:40:36.:40:41.

safe and so I would be horrified actually if this was a cost-cutting

:40:41.:40:44.

measure tofuer people in prison. That would be a really terrible and

:40:44.:40:48.

very serious mistake. You think fewer people will be in prison as a

:40:48.:40:52.

result. Jo Swinson, do you agree with that? Will it lead to spewer

:40:52.:40:58.

people in prison? It's not clear, but it could lead to more -- fewer

:40:58.:41:04.

people. Ken Clarke presented what Labour did as a Spain on the

:41:04.:41:09.

justice system in Britain? Indefinite sentences are basically

:41:09.:41:12.

yes, locking people up potentially indefinitely and, I think the

:41:12.:41:16.

problem with that is it's been used in so many more cases than it was

:41:16.:41:19.

expected to be used when Labour introduced it. If fact, from the

:41:19.:41:25.

point of view of the victims and their families, that also creates a

:41:25.:41:28.

massive uncertainty. When I've spoke to victims of serious crime

:41:28.:41:31.

in my constituency, one important thing for them is to actually have

:41:31.:41:36.

some kind of understanding and idea of the the offender is going to be

:41:36.:41:39.

released, when they are going to be released and to know what is

:41:39.:41:42.

happening. This creates a huge amount of uncertainty. I think it's

:41:42.:41:47.

better to move to a situation where there's more certainty. I'm not

:41:47.:41:50.

convinced actually about the use of mandatory sentencing. That's not

:41:50.:41:53.

about saying that we are soft on crime. I think it's about saying

:41:53.:41:58.

that we politicians in the House of Commons aren't necessarily always

:41:58.:42:01.

best placed to decide what the sentence should be. We have a

:42:01.:42:04.

judicial system. That's why we call them judge, because they're there,

:42:04.:42:08.

they've listened to all of the facts, they understand the context

:42:08.:42:13.

and they, I believe, are best placed to decide. You know, there

:42:13.:42:16.

are always difficult cases and special circumstances and

:42:16.:42:19.

thankfully in these proposals, and it may be in the small print but I

:42:19.:42:23.

do understand that judges will still retain some discretion.

:42:23.:42:26.

it's not mandatory at all? understanding is that if there is

:42:26.:42:29.

an early guilty plea, a 16-year-old under certain circumstances, the

:42:29.:42:34.

judge may decide that actually, sending them to prison at a cost of

:42:34.:42:38.

something like �100,000 a year, where there's an 80% reoffending

:42:38.:42:41.

rate might not be the best thing for society and indeed for that

:42:41.:42:44.

individual. I would like to see us actually having a situation where

:42:44.:42:48.

if a 16-year-old is carrying a knife and acting in that way, that

:42:48.:42:51.

we get to a situation as soon as possible where they are not, where

:42:51.:42:54.

they can become a functioning member of society and sadly, I do

:42:54.:42:59.

not have great faith in our prison system for actually doing that.

:42:59.:43:04.

APPLAUSE The woman there in the third row

:43:04.:43:08.

from the back. As a victim of crime, I actually

:43:08.:43:11.

believe that the criminal should get the sentences that are handed

:43:11.:43:15.

out to them and actually we should be stronger on that. If we build

:43:15.:43:17.

more prisons, we'll create some employment opportunities and keep

:43:17.:43:22.

crime off the street. So when you hear the words "mandatory sentence"

:43:22.:43:26.

which is used by Ken Clarke on the one hand and then Jo saying that

:43:26.:43:29.

the judges will have the freedom to decide whether or not to impose,

:43:30.:43:34.

are you happy with that? No. I think our sentences are far too

:43:34.:43:37.

light actually and the criminals actually get off way too lightly

:43:38.:43:44.

and we should be harder in our society. Nigel Farage? I think

:43:44.:43:49.

agree with that. I must say, having studied this Government on crime

:43:49.:43:52.

and punishment, Ken Clarke's position is bizarre. On the one

:43:52.:43:55.

hand, he seems to be arguing that virtually nobody should be going to

:43:55.:43:58.

prison, now he's talking about mandatory sentences. I think this

:43:58.:44:02.

is because of the pressure that Theresa May has put on him. Theresa

:44:02.:44:08.

May does say some quite sensible things from time to time. Can't

:44:08.:44:15.

think where she gets her lines from. The question, can the prison system

:44:15.:44:18.

cope with this new mandatory sentencing, if indeed it's to

:44:18.:44:23.

happen at all, the answer is no. One thing that we just have not

:44:23.:44:27.

done is, we haven't recognised that the criminal base in this country

:44:27.:44:30.

has increased massively over the last few years. There are lots of

:44:30.:44:34.

reasons for it and it's very regrettable, but I think the

:44:34.:44:38.

British public are sick to the back teeth of every single week reading

:44:38.:44:41.

about people who've been given lengthy sentences, as the lady just

:44:41.:44:46.

said, have not served them and have then gone on to reoffend. And these

:44:46.:44:51.

are some of the worst crimes that we can possibly talk about. We have

:44:51.:44:55.

to recognise that that base is much bigger than it used to be and we

:44:55.:44:59.

need to embark upon a fairly substantial prison-building prom

:44:59.:45:03.

and we need to give people tough sentences and make sure they serve

:45:03.:45:13.
:45:13.:45:16.

them. Let's have some deterrents in I'm not sure why this has come up

:45:16.:45:20.

recurrently. I don't think the prisons could actually accommodate

:45:20.:45:24.

more life sentences, so the next thing will be a deterrent, but if

:45:24.:45:27.

you look at America they have the death penalty and their crime rate

:45:27.:45:33.

is much higher than ours, so I can see no other way of that working,

:45:33.:45:39.

but what we really should look at is rehabilitation and also looking

:45:39.:45:44.

into - Some states in America have the penalty and some don't and I

:45:44.:45:47.

would agree, there is no evidence that it is much of a deerer rent,

:45:47.:45:52.

but what the Americans have done is to recognise that whilst

:45:52.:45:56.

rehabilitation for first-time offenders is vital, there is a

:45:56.:46:00.

certain amount of society who just cannot be cured and what they have

:46:00.:46:05.

done is to embark 25 years on an extensive prison-building programme

:46:05.:46:10.

and violent cuem in America has halved over the last -- crime in

:46:10.:46:13.

America has halved over the past 25 years. You are saying the criminal

:46:13.:46:17.

base has expanded hugely and you are saying there is a tiny

:46:17.:46:22.

proportion who you can't reach out to. No, there is no inconsistency

:46:22.:46:27.

there. To say that the solution to that problem, if you are taking the

:46:27.:46:32.

view, is to just build more prisons and lock more people up, that is an

:46:32.:46:37.

incredibly way of dealing with that. It doesn't help society. It does.

:46:37.:46:43.

It doesn't, because it ultimately doesn't help society. What we need

:46:43.:46:48.

to do is get people rehabilitated, as the lady says. You cannot

:46:48.:46:55.

rehabilitate all of the criminal classes. Wouldn't it be refreshing

:46:55.:46:59.

that all politicians actually say what they are going to do when they

:46:59.:47:05.

are in opposition and when get into power they do it, so we make

:47:05.:47:08.

manifestos legal and binding and then the panel would agree that it

:47:08.:47:12.

would encourage younger voters to start believing what politicians

:47:12.:47:18.

say and encourage voters to believe politics would become relevant

:47:18.:47:21.

again. There was an example David Cameron talking about knife crime

:47:21.:47:25.

in 2007 and you can go on quoting Labour saying thing in the --

:47:25.:47:29.

things in the last 13 years, and they don't action. They say one

:47:29.:47:36.

thing, get into power and say something else. I don't agree with

:47:36.:47:39.

Gloria about indefinite sentences, but I agree with everything else.

:47:39.:47:44.

There is a kind of pact between the people and the Government that they

:47:44.:47:49.

will be protected from crime. One of the arguments that doesn't wash

:47:49.:47:55.

at all is the cost. The 100,000. Governments waste money like water

:47:55.:48:00.

pouring over Niagra. Thing of the wars we don't want and the quangos.

:48:00.:48:05.

There are millions going out. We need to feel that the justice

:48:05.:48:09.

system is on our side. And that it is protecting us from criminals.

:48:09.:48:15.

The idea that you can argue the cost when so much is being spent on

:48:15.:48:20.

things we couldn't care less about, I can't wear that at all. The cost

:48:20.:48:24.

is not just financial - APPLAUSE

:48:24.:48:29.

It is also to society. Of lives being wasted that could be

:48:29.:48:31.

productive. The other part of the government must speak. Iain Duncan

:48:31.:48:41.
:48:41.:48:44.

Smith. I must say, sometimes this debate seems to get polarised into

:48:44.:48:47.

either tough on criminals or soft on them and therefore you are wrong.

:48:47.:48:50.

The truth is if people really understood would we lock up in

:48:50.:48:54.

prison they would understand a huge amount of why we have got so many

:48:54.:48:57.

people in prison. The truth is most of them are men in prison and it's

:48:57.:49:02.

men mostly in prison, who are drug and alcohol abusers and the vast

:49:02.:49:05.

majority can't read or write properly. They can't apply for jobs.

:49:05.:49:09.

They are incapable of expressing themselves. They have mental health

:49:09.:49:13.

problems and they come from massively dysfunctional and broken

:49:13.:49:17.

homes and probably watched most of their mums or women in their lives

:49:17.:49:20.

being beaten up by violent men all through their life and they copy

:49:20.:49:25.

that from them. That is the group from which we draw our criminals

:49:25.:49:28.

and prisoners. Until we face up to to the fact that you will never

:49:28.:49:33.

arrest and lock up your way out of this problem, that the purpose of

:49:33.:49:37.

criminal justice is to stabilise the issue, but then we need to do

:49:37.:49:42.

more and the point what Ken is trying to do now is these sentences

:49:42.:49:45.

are about being fair and stabilising that problem, but now

:49:45.:49:50.

we have to attack the problem, right at the earliest stages, with

:49:50.:49:54.

far too many dysfunctional and broken homes breeding kids going

:49:54.:49:57.

into crime and it's violent. We have to tackle that. That has to

:49:58.:50:01.

start much earlier. We in Britain have not bothered with that at all.

:50:01.:50:07.

If you took 10% of those who go back into prison a second time, you

:50:07.:50:10.

would almost automatically release prison numbers and have much more

:50:10.:50:15.

spaces in Britain. -- prison. Yes, you have to be tough with violent

:50:15.:50:18.

and per petual offenders, but the truth is most of those in prison

:50:19.:50:22.

should have been dealt with at school, in their families, in their

:50:22.:50:28.

homes and until we face up to that, we will never solve this problem.

:50:28.:50:35.

APPLAUSE How long will that take? Which is

:50:35.:50:39.

an answer to a question other than the one that was asked. I would

:50:39.:50:44.

like to go back to that. Perhaps if the conditions in the prisons were

:50:44.:50:47.

slightly less enticing they wouldn't want to go back and some

:50:47.:50:50.

of the elderly patients in our hospitals I think feel they are

:50:50.:50:56.

serving a prison sentence. APPLAUSE

:50:56.:50:59.

Very briefly, Iain Duncan Smith, are the measures that Ken Clarke

:50:59.:51:03.

has announced going to lead to an increase in the prison population

:51:03.:51:07.

and to use the question, account prison system cope? The system will

:51:07.:51:12.

cope, because it has to and the reality of the sentences, firstly,

:51:12.:51:19.

the indeterminate. What do you mean by it has to cope? We have to

:51:19.:51:23.

protect the public. Are we going to build more prisons? Hold on. That

:51:23.:51:26.

is the number one priority to protect the public and

:51:26.:51:29.

indeterminate sentences were terrible, because it gave nothing

:51:29.:51:32.

to the prisoners. We know all that. Can the prisons expand? Yes, that

:51:32.:51:36.

is what the Government has to do, make sure that it allocates the

:51:36.:51:42.

resources to make sure that there are places. The reality is this is

:51:42.:51:46.

two-pronged. One, you have to deal with the violent criminals and

:51:46.:51:49.

punish them and what is given in the sentences, if a person is

:51:49.:51:53.

picked up who has done a violent attack and had a ten-year sentence

:51:53.:51:57.

before and subsequently does another one, then he is saying it's

:51:57.:52:01.

only because of the skill of the surgeons he wasn't done for murder,

:52:01.:52:04.

so now that person needs to do life. I think that is reasonable. That is

:52:04.:52:07.

about to getting to those who are violent, but you need to try to

:52:07.:52:11.

resolve the problem we have, which is we are on a line producing

:52:11.:52:14.

criminals from these dysfunctional and broken homes. That is the real

:52:14.:52:20.

issue. Thank you very much. We have five minutes or so left. Another

:52:20.:52:26.

question. This is from Sam Fox who a sixth form student. Now that

:52:26.:52:30.

university applications have fallen this year, is it still correct to

:52:30.:52:34.

have raised student tuition fees? The interesting figures show that

:52:34.:52:39.

university applications have dropped by 9% and it may be because

:52:39.:52:43.

of the fees. If you could all be brief on this, because of the time

:52:43.:52:46.

we have. Jo Swinson, you were one of those Liberal Democrats who said

:52:46.:52:52.

there wouldn't be any fees and as a Scottish MP, you voted for England

:52:52.:52:55.

to have fees, whereas Scotland, as we know, with the amount of money

:52:55.:53:00.

that comes from gnd, doesn't need to have them, -- England, doesn't

:53:00.:53:06.

need to have them. I can be succint. Not many issues there. Do you think

:53:06.:53:11.

it's correct still to flout the manifesto you stood on and continue

:53:11.:53:14.

to raise the fees? In an ideal world, this wouldn't be happening

:53:14.:53:17.

and if we had a Liberal Democrat government we would have been able

:53:17.:53:22.

to implement all of the manifesto. The voters spoke and said 650 MPs

:53:22.:53:25.

we'll give you 57, so that meant we weren't able to do everything we

:53:25.:53:29.

wanted to do. Plus, we are in a situation where there is a massive

:53:29.:53:34.

budget deficit and at the time of the election the deficit was 13%,

:53:34.:53:38.

which is was the same as Greece, so if we weren't going to take strong

:53:38.:53:42.

action there would be serious consequences. I do think we need to

:53:42.:53:45.

get across that people can go to university. I think there is still

:53:45.:53:50.

a job to be done here, because people won't be paying upfront and

:53:50.:53:54.

be paying until they graduating and earning more than �21,000 and they

:53:54.:53:58.

will be paying less per month than they do under the current system.

:53:58.:54:01.

It is a more progressive system. Under ideal circumstances it

:54:01.:54:04.

wouldn't be what we are doing, but in a very difficult set of

:54:04.:54:07.

circumstances and having to be in a coalition, we have made it as

:54:07.:54:11.

progressive as we can. Briefly, everybody, Julian Fellowes. I think

:54:11.:54:16.

our education system is in a bad way. I think we have devalued

:54:16.:54:19.

degrees at universities. I think we have a good education minister and

:54:19.:54:22.

good people from the left and right trying to help him and I hope he's

:54:23.:54:25.

successful, but if you are asking me do I find it surprising that

:54:26.:54:29.

people do not want to start their working life tens of thousands of

:54:29.:54:33.

pounds in debt, for a degree that no longer guarantees a job, no, I

:54:33.:54:43.

don't find it surprising. APPLAUSE

:54:43.:54:48.

Gloria De Piero. I was the first person in my family to go to

:54:48.:54:52.

university and it changed my life, so I don't want to give young

:54:52.:54:56.

people a downer. It changed my life. I would be really concerned if this

:54:56.:55:02.

9% drop are the people like me, who managed to change their lives by

:55:03.:55:06.

going. What Ed Miliband has said and it kind of relates to the point

:55:06.:55:09.

that the guy in the blue shirt med earlier about politicians and their

:55:09.:55:13.

promises and how you have to keep to them and he said he would be the

:55:13.:55:16.

first to underpromise and overdeliver. What we have said, we

:55:16.:55:19.

know that we can't promise everything, but we have said there

:55:19.:55:23.

will be a limit of �6,000 rather than nine. I know it's not perfect,

:55:23.:55:25.

but it's a step in the rye direction and I think it will help

:55:26.:55:31.

more people to get there. You Sir, there. I'm a student at sixth form

:55:31.:55:35.

college and I handed in my application a couple of weeks back.

:55:35.:55:41.

Everybody is taking a hit, why shouldn't the students also? Iain

:55:41.:55:45.

Duncan Smith, briefly? I think the gentleman there who has just spoken

:55:45.:55:49.

pretty much sums it up. The fact is we have a huge debt crisis. We have

:55:50.:55:53.

a real problem and we have to sort that out. The reality is that

:55:53.:55:58.

university does change your life. It does give you options. The

:55:58.:56:02.

reality here is that somehow you have to fund it. I think on balance,

:56:02.:56:07.

that this is a reasonable thing to do. You don't have upfront fees and

:56:07.:56:13.

you won't start paing back until �21,000. I know it's -- paying back

:56:13.:56:17.

until �21,000. I know it's difficult. We were in a difficult

:56:17.:56:22.

position and we have to resolve it. The woman there. With less people

:56:23.:56:25.

going to university, does it mean there will be higher unemployment

:56:25.:56:30.

and what will be done to get more people into jobs? It may well. Look,

:56:30.:56:36.

it's no surprise at all, is it, that we have got a situation now

:56:36.:56:40.

where through the 7% that go to the private and public schools, they

:56:40.:56:45.

are dominating public life in a way they have ethey haven't done for

:56:45.:56:48.

over 50 years and my worry about this drop in applications is that

:56:48.:56:53.

in many cases it will be the very bright people from poor families

:56:53.:56:59.

who they by cannot -- who think we cannot take on this risk and there

:56:59.:57:03.

is less as a result of the policies and education policies, in many,

:57:03.:57:07.

many cases, bright children from the poorest backgrounds will not

:57:07.:57:15.

achieve their very best. That is a big mistake. We can't afford to

:57:15.:57:18.

waste these brains. A couple of points from you up there and then

:57:18.:57:22.

you. Isn't it the case that the number of applications going to the

:57:22.:57:26.

top universities has gone up? People are making the decision if

:57:26.:57:30.

it's in their financial interest to go to university they'll pay the

:57:30.:57:34.

extra fees? Then the woman there. How will the Government ensure that

:57:34.:57:41.

�9,000 a year will mean a quality degree, rather than some of the

:57:41.:57:46.

standards today? You Sir. Do you think it's acceptable that English

:57:46.:57:50.

students have to pay �9,000, while in Scotland they get it for free?

:57:50.:57:54.

Quite. We come back to that another day. Thank you very much. We have

:57:54.:57:59.

to stop. Question Time next week, it's part of something called

:57:59.:58:04.

Parliament Week which is intended to create a better understanding of

:58:04.:58:09.

the democratic process. We are going to be actually broadcasting

:58:09.:58:12.

from inside the Palace of Westminster, where the state trials

:58:12.:58:17.

of everyone from Charles I to Guy Fawkes took place. Where President

:58:17.:58:20.

Obama and the current Pope both spoke. They are not going to be on

:58:20.:58:26.

the panel. In their footsteps will come the Home Secretary and Ed

:58:26.:58:30.

Balls and Shirley Williams and two others as yet unknown. The week

:58:30.:58:36.

after that, we'll be in Newcastle. If you want to join the audience,

:58:36.:58:46.

David Dimbleby chairs the debate from Winchester, with a panel including Downton Abbey writer and creator Julian Fellowes; Iain Duncan Smith, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions; Gloria De Piero, Shadow Home Office Minister; Jo Swinson, Liberal Democrat MP, and Nigel Farage, leader of UKIP.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS