17/11/2011 Question Time

We have got some questions to be answered, so let's get started.

Welcome to Question Time. On our panel, the housing minister, Grant

Shapps, the Shadow immigration minister, Chris Bryant, Elin Jones,

from Plaid Cymru and hoping to win the current leadership election in

Wales. The economics commentator, now head of an Oxford college, Will

Hutton and the chairman of the National Trust and columnist, Simon

Francesca Lonie has our first question. How would you help the

one million 16 to 24-year-olds now unemployed? Chris Bryant? I would

make sure there was a job for them and I think the best way of doing

that is what we have been advocating for some time, which is

we think there should be a personal tax on bankers' bonuses to bring in

an extra �2 billion to pay for the building of -- creating another

200,000 jobs for young people. We believe there would be a national

insurance holiday and that would be a good idea to take on new people

in business, because we need to get growth in the economy. It must be

one of the most shaming things for our country, that we have - not

just that we have one million young people unemployed, but 260,000 of

them have been unemployed for more than a year and the number

unemployed for more than six months has ridden by 83% in the last six

months. That is just shocking. I really worry for a young generation

of people who are never going to have a chance to stand - start off

on the ladder in life and are going to be laden down with vast amounts

of debt. How quickly would your plans work, do you think? If we

were able to start the � did billion tax on bonuses we would be

able to get back into the kind of territory where we were when we

left power, which is we were - we had a Future Jobs Fund, which was

specifically about making sure that no young person went past the six-

month period without having a job. Trn Grant Shapps. Firstly, it's

obviously incredibly tough out there for anyone who is prapg

leaving university, where the numbers have gone up and that is

not an easy place to be in an economy which is not growing as

quickly as everyone would like. We all know about the effect from the

eurozone and the rest. To put the figures in perspective, it is

important to understand this is not something which has happened

overnight, not even since the beginning of the recession, but has

been rising since 2004. It's a long-term trend and also. You have

had plenty of time to think about it. Indeed, we haveious launched

the biggest-ever work programme since the 1920's, which aims to try

to tackle this. To answer some of the questions of what to do about

it, this work programme is twice the size, taking in twice as many

people as the fund that Chris was talking about. That is one of the

answers. Also, to put the figures into perspective, about 300,000 of

the people who are on that list at the moment, they are full-time

students, so this isn't necessarily everyone searching for a job at one

time. There isn't one solution, but the work programme does good things

like pays by results. If someone has got into a job, that's when the

person who is looking and helping them get into that job is paid. If

they stay for two years, they get a much bigger payment. You don't end

up in one of the systems where go into a work experience programme,

fall out of it again, go in again. This has to be proper employment

when that works. Will Hutton? has been going on since 2004 -- or

this has been going on since 2004 and I think this is symptomatic

about something which is really profound and what it tells us is

that the private sector is not hiring young people and the public

sector's losing them because of the cuts and the declared necessity to

cut the deficit and what it spells out is that in many parts of the

country there is literally no opportunity for our young people.

The work programme is dependent upon contractors finding private

sector employers, who are prepared to take people on. Is it true that

employers, as is reported, want foreign workers not British workers

if they have a choice? Well, - There is is exacerbates the

problem? Wales is interesting, it has shown the biggest increase in

this period in youth unemployment and people without education or

training. You also have the slowest growth of immigration into your

country, so there isn't a one-to- one Lynn yar relationship of that

type. You -- linear relationship of that type. You can't say that

foreigners are crowding out the work in Wales. What you can say is

that it's very difficult to move around Wales. It's very difficult

if you are a young person here to get work in Cardiff or to get work

elsewhere in England or Scotland. Getting a house or a flat is close

to impossible. What about we are - what about all over the United

Kingdom? Of course. I must say it's time for some ambition, real

ambition. You talk about national insurance contributions and a

holiday. Let's abolish contributions for all people under

APPLAUSE Let's have a housing programme that

actually permits young people in this country to move from where

there is no work to where there is work. It's in the there. Let's have

some attempt to get the private sector off its back, otherwise

we'll have one million people and more under 24 out of work for many

more years. APPLAUSE

My goodness, I never expected to come here tonight and agree with

Will Hutton so much. You are absolutely right. Then you don't

need to follow him. I was going to say you like the fact we have

introduced a mobility programme nationwide so people can swap homes.

And about jobs and ambition, is that one million new jobs have been

advertised in the last three months alone. That is a huge number of

jobs. If we can fit people together with the jobs that are there and if

there is mobility then we have a good programme. Elin Jones. It's an

absolute tragedy that one million young people are out of work and

the statistics are worse in Wales. It's around 20% here in Wales and

there are regions in England as well, where the percentages are far

too high. I would say two things. One, we need to change the course

of the current UK economic policy. We are near recession and we need a

fiscal stimulus to provide a really imaginative capital investment

programme that gets hospitals, homes being built. How much would

you spend? In Wales. No, in the UK. You don't have the money in Wales.

As Plaid Cymru we have been pressing the Welsh Government to

put forward a Bill for Wales. would you like to see in the whole

of the UK? How much money would you like to spend? We have estimated

that in Wales we could be spending around �500 million on a capital

investment programme. Multiply that by 20 and we get to the figure for

the UK. We want to see a capital investment programme and a really

imaginative one, because these issues are serious. Also, and more

immediate, to tackle the immediate problem, the CBI have been saying

they want to see the UK Government provide direct support to take on

young people, to get them off benefits so they are not losing

hope and not losing their life chances and are getting proper jobs.

There are many people with their hands up. I want to hear from Simon

Jenkins and then I'll come to you, Sir, because you had your hand up

from the very beginning. It's the easiest thing for a politician to

say I would create one million jobs. I suppose we have always been

hearing this. It's the easiest thing to say I would invest �500

million in public works. Any fool can say that. There are no jobs

there at the moment. There will only be jobs if you restimulate the

economy. I have a certain sympathy for the Government. I don't see

anything terribly wrong in trying to get back to the balance that we

had five years ago. What is clearly the case is that for Government to

be spending $800 billion bailing out banks, which I have to say is

an obsession of mine is utterly pointless if you are going to print

money and give it to people to spend it. Isn't the other pointless

thing paying people to be unemployed rather than employed so

they can pay taxes so we could then deal with the debt? There are no

jobs. You can get a job if you stimulate the economy and private

sector activity increases and people have work. There is no point

in pleading with a bank to lend money to a bankrupt company. Simon,

what do you make of the figures that show that British employment

is lagging and foreign employment in Britain is rising? We know why

that is the case, because it's cheaper to employ foreigners. There

is less burden on the regulatory framework, but I don't think that

is the answer to the question. The answer to the question -- There

they not jobs that could become British? They are indeed. If you

adopt that attitude, I'm not a protectionist on the whole. Even

with one million youth unemployed? I think I wouldn't do it then.

There are a lot of young people in the audience. There are lots of

other people who are unemployed who are not under 24 and it's as

debilitating for them as a young person. Speaking as an employer in

the area, I would urge the Government to have some kind of

stimulus and incentive for us to take on youngsters, because I

remember way back in the old YTS days that was the first springboard

that gave us the advantage to take on young people. We took on two,

three, four and they grew with us as a company. One of them ended up

as a factory manager and it's important that the Government puts

that in again. I have to disagree with Simon Jenkins. Everybody I

know who runs a company is desperate for an extra pair of

hands, but we can't afford to take them on. Do you have any incentive

at the moment of any kind? Nothing at all. I feel a holiday for

national insurance would be big, but to help us pay the wages too.

Absolutely. I set up my own printing company 21 years ago this

weekend and if I think back to the one measure that made it harder to

employ people, it is what the employment right period was change

-- changed and it made it harder to employ. We'll make sure that it

will make it easier to hire people, by putting the emploit rights back

to 12 months. -- employment rights That is the incentive that we need.

Not the employment rights - that is another issue. APPLAUSE You are

right along the lines of exactly what the policy is outside of the

South East. We are providing incentives for small firms to take

on people without those additional costs... He is not getting them.

are based in Wales and we are not... Depends when the business started

up. This has been going for 30 years. OK. Will Hutton? It's the

deepest recession and longest recession since the 19th Century.

It won't be till 2013 or 2014 that we get back to the levels of output

in 2008. This is a more serious issue that we confront in Britain

than we have faced for over 125 years. Your point? You can borrow

in the capital markets for the lowest rates of interest since the

1890s. Let's put the country to work! APPLAUSE Listen... Simon is

right. You must not manhandle him Simon is right. If you are going to

get banks to lend, you have to have people who are prepared to borrow.

Hold on, you have correctly identified we have the lowest

interest rates forever. The reason for that is because we have a

credible plan to tackle the deficit which is about to send us, was to

send us the way of Ireland, Greece and Italy. The idea that you can

solve a debt crisis by taking on more debt is of course completely

economically untrue. APPLAUSE The man there? How can the Government

justify higher tuition fees when so many graduates are left unemployed

and no-one is going to want to go to university? Are you at

university? Yes. Hold that point. We will go to the man there on the

right. You? I think I have been very disappointed by the response

from the two politicians from Westminster to the question. They

haven't shown any urgency like Will said. Really, because the Housing

Minister is here, I would like to say, like Simon said, you have

pumped that money into the banks, why didn't you put it into a house

building programme? Are you going forward with the eco-villages, eco-

towns? You could use the money which you spent on quantitative

easing, yeah, put that into house building, sell the houses and it's

the same type of scenario as the quantitative easing but you are

giving people jobs - plumbers, electricians. Is that programme

still going ahead? If not, why not? I'm all in favour of building

houses. House building is up by a quarter under this Government, so

we are getting somewhere with it. We are about to do a housing

strategy. You are right, when you build homes it does create a lot of

employment in the construction industry, the kind of jobs we want

to get created as well. The answer again goes back to Will's point,

you can't simply build an economy by adding to debt when your main

problem is that for every �4 that we were spending as a nation we

were borrowing one of those pounds. You have to stop building on the

debt. What he needs if he is going to employ more young people is an

incentive, such as a National Insurance... We scrapped your jobs

tax. That is why we scrapped your jobs tax. Now, what I can't get out

of Grant is I cannot understand why it is you decided to print �700

billion and do something with it to stimulate the economy. What you did

with it was you gave it to a bank which saved it. What you could have

done with it, you could have doubled pensions for a year, you

should have showered the money over the High Street for a year, you

could have done something with it and you didn't. You gave it to a

bank. Why? That was something that happened during a previous

administration. The rescue of the banks was an earlier issue.

gave �400 billion to them three months ago. The woman, two from the

back? You won't get an answer! of the main problems is Wales is

dependent on small business, small business can't borrow money to take

people on. The Project Merlin has failed its targets. There needs to

be more effective banking reform. If you can get business to borrow

money, they can take people on. That is what needs to be solved as

well as looking at the deficit. you in business yourself? I am

starting a business. Are you borrowing for it? I haven't applied

yet. At some point, I will be. People are telling me it is really

hard, the High Street banks don't want to lend. That is something the

Government needs to tackle now. APPLAUSE The man there? Why is it

that students that aren't necessarily as academic as some

others, why are they pressured into doing BTECS? Surely it would be

better if they were out in the world of work? OK. You, Sir? Surely

you need to create some rewards for them to create jobs? Why not pump

the money into the private sector? We come back to it week-by-week.

Another question. Andrew Richards? Are the calls from doctors to ban

smoking in cars a step too far? Elin Jones, in favour or not?

I am certainly in favour of banning smoking in cars where children are

present and I have been a long time supporter of that. The Welsh

Government is currently considering introducing legislation in Wales on

that. Children of course travelling in cars, when they are exposed to

smoke, take on that smoke, its toxicity is harmful to those

children. It is appropriate for the state to intervene to ban what is...

What would you do if you are driving from England with kids in

the car? That is what devolution is about. In the USA, in Australia,

different states have banned smoking in cars and they seem to

manage quite well there so I am sure English people driving over

the border will be able to manage just in the same way. Simon Jenkins,

are you in favour? I think it's outrageous to say to people what

they should or should not be able to do in a car. I really do.

APPLAUSE Last week, Oxford City Council decided they were going to

have CCTV cameras inside their taxi and every conversation was going to

be recorded in case it might be needed in a criminal case. We have

gone completely mad. APPLAUSE were told the Coalition Government

was going to put a stop to this. Every week, we are going to have

ground to air missiles defending the Olympics. There is no limit to

the lunacy from which Government authorities are not now capable.

People want to do silly things in their cars, let them do it! It is

not the Government's business. there are children in those cars

and those children have no choice? I'm not going to kill them. It is

not your business, it is MY business! Well, it is your

children's business as well. You, Sir? They tried to ban people using

mobile phones in cars but it hasn't worked. I see it all the time.

Until they make it anti-social, nobody takes any notice. You, Sir?

If they make smoking banned in cars, then people are going to smoke in

their houses as well. It won't stop the problem. You need to inform the

people rather than thinking you can legislate? The theory is it was 23

times more dangerous to smoke in a car than in a bar, wasn't it?

Presumably a bar with 23 people in it? You can probably smoke 23 more

times at home. Are you in favour of this ban, Will Hutton? I am. We

were against seatbelts, and deaths from road accidents have fallen by

two-thirds over the last 30 years. What is it, there are still over

50,000 deaths from cancer and 100,000 deaths from smoking-related

diseases. When you smoke inside a car, the level of toxicity is

extraordinary. It is a deathtrap. What about a convertible? LAUGHTER

I think that it's - there was a lot of resistance to the idea of

banning smoking in public places and we have done it. Now it is a

social norm. What about the point that a car is a private place? What

he does in the car is his business, not yours? It is a public place in

this respect. If there is a kid in it with you, they are being

directly damaged. Also the consequences of smoking is picked

up by everybody in this room, in the health interventions that

follow from it. It is our concern. It is our concern what people do in

their back gardens. We live in a society, we are interdependent and

actions of others impact on us. This is one of those difficult

lines. I just about think it is worth doing. Thank you. The woman

there? APPLAUSE You are talking a lot about the health risks and how

it is a private place. I have been driving for a year and I would be a

lot worried if there was someone trying to overtake me whilst having

a fag. They are being distracted whilst driving, that is more the

issue. APPLAUSE More like using a mobile phone? Exactly. This is a

BMA recommendation, not adopted by the Government so far. You think

the Government should adopt it? don't. I voted for the original

smoking ban which I thought was the right thing to do. I think it is

nice you can go to a restaurant bar, come home and your clothes don't

stink. I was talking to my kids and explaining you were allowed to do

that. They were amazed it was ever possible. Once you get down to the

privacy of your own car - and the proposal is this would apply

whether or not you had anybody else Presumably to the privacy of your

own home. That is the state reaching too far. I fully endorse

the idea that people shouldn't smoke in a car ideally with

children in that car. That's called being a responsible parent. We need

people to be responsible and not think that the state can always

step in and tell people how to be responsible. It is a step too far.

APPLAUSE Chris Bryant? In my patch in the Rhondda, we have a very high

level of emSeema. The mines closed a long time ago. The vast majority

of people in the Rhondda who suffer from that do so because of smoking.

My mother smoked a lot when I was young. I remember once when she was

moving house, cleaning the flat with her, and cleaning the ceiling

above where she used to sit. Washing it and the kind of nicotine

stain dribbling down my arm and I thought, "That's inside my lungs as

well." To be honest, I think the Cavalier attitude about well, "They

are my children, I can do with them what I want." That is not good

enough. I don't think that is what Simon Jenkins said. You are

poisoning your child if you smoke at home. We are not talking about

what is the best thing to do, but what the best thing is for the

Government to do. The most dangerous thing you can do in a

motor car is arguing with your partner. Are you going to ban that?

Are you going to ban second people in cars? This is the way we are

going unless somebody says, "Listen, it is a bad thing, but we are not

going to ban it" you will never take responsibility for anything.

The man who designed the Mini said there shouldn't be radios in cars

because it would distract people and people should drive in silence?

I am sure Will will have the Government enacting that tomorrow!

You, Sir? How can you enforce banning smoking in cars? I would

much rather the police were looking for serious criminals. APPLAUSE OK.

Just before we go on, if you are tweeting tonight, you can do that.

We will tell you what others are saying. Alan Morgan Joans?

Chancellor Merkel's right-hand man says now all of Europe is speaking

German. Is this a true reflection of Mrs Merkel's aspiration to rule

Europe? Simon Jenkins? I don't think it is. I think that she said

it. It was one of her colleagues who said it. Either way, clearly

Germany now finds itself in a position which it doesn't want to

be in, of being by far the most powerful country in Europe

economically. You are talking to a eurosceptic. I always thought - I

hope I said it somewhere - I always thought that this would end in

tears. This is the single currency. You cannot impose these sorts of

rigidities on widely different economies with different frameworks.

It will snap and it has now snapped. The snapping is in part Germany's

fault, with the way the currency was organised. It can only be saved

through Germany. Even then it won't be saved. I feel very strongly the

countries of Europe have got to devalue. We have to go back to a

situation in which their cost also be reflected in their currency.

Everybody goes back to their currency? Yes. They will. I would

predict they will. France and France and Germany? Certainly, the

euro may be smaller. The point of the question is this - I think it

is sort of unfair on Germany and I didn't like the Daily Mail today.

It's unfair to say this is Germany once again trying to bestride

Europe. Germany happens to be the most efficient country in Europe

and hard-working country and just now we depend on Germany or the

euro does, to bail it out. Germany's got to do that, but don't

get into this mess again. You think the euro -

APPLAUSE You are a euro-sceptic and you

believe it's effectively finished. Will Hutton, is that your view?

worried about the euro and this Parliamentary leader of the group

in Germany who spoke at the final day of a conference, who said that,

because we need the euro in Britain to pull through this. If Greece,

for example, were to leave the euro unable to speak German, as was said

in Germany, there would immediately be in Ireland, in Portugal, in

Italy, in Spain, every citizen and every company in those countries

would say, my God, we better get our money out and there would be a

capital flight like we have seen before across Europe. Banks who had

claims on Greece would be tottering. There would be a domino effect. Our

banks have lent close to one trillion euro and our banks would

need to be propped up by the British Government. I think there

would be a depression across the European Union. The Italians are

dog what they need to get through, -- doing what we need to do to get

through and so are the Greeks and it is time for Germany and Angela

Merkel's party to step up to the plate and take their responsibility

for making it work. They have to create a properly financed European

monetary fund to stand behind the countries to allow the ECB to do

the business and pull the euro through. If Germany takes this

attitude I'm very, very fearful for the European project and the euro

and talking about our young unemployed, for them too. We are

watching a potential catastrophe unfold here. Do you want to see

Britain in the euro? I think in some respects - this is complicated.

If you go back - at this moment in time, no. In 15 years' time,

possibly. Grant Shapps. I don't want to see Britain in the euro now

or the future. I think that it wouldn't be right -

APPLAUSE - Those who said it upfront got it

right. It was not the right project for this country. It's turned out

not to be right in a lot of other places. Now the others are in the

zone and unraffling from that could be incredibly difficult, -- un

ravelling from that could be incredibly difficult. They need to

start to work together to tix the - - fix the problem. The Prime

Minister has talked about a big bazooka approach. It needs the

institutions of Europe, whether the ECB, or Germany and the other

countries all coming together, to put a firewall in place to ensure

that the euro can succeed. Countries coming out of the euro

will not be, as some people view it, from here, well, that doesn't

patter they'll go back to their currencies. It will be a very

difficult, ugly process. It will leave the British economy, who

spend a lot of our time exporting to those countries, with a terrible

deep-freeze chilling effect over all of us, so we have to stand by

to help through things like the IMF, but we can't do that before the

eurozone has done more to help itself. You Sir, there. We talked a

lot about responsibility this evening and the eurozone and the

European project was started by Germany with France in the 1950's.

It has benefited from countries such as Greece and Portugal being

able to borrow at interest rates similar to those at Germany without

checking and sold and exported to those markets and profited from

that, which is why it's in the position of strength that it's in

today. If we are talking about responsibility, we are talking

about a collapsing eurozone, we should be forcing Germany to bail

that zone out. Forcing? Forcing Germany to bail the eurozone out

and prop it up, because British banks and money and the Government

has invested in the project and if it collapses we collapse.

person there. I'm very worried about the way in which Will Hutton

attempts to worry us. I think we hear far too much in this crisis

about the dangers of international finance. For goodness sake,

international finance is paper stuff. It is the problem.

International finance moves from one place to another. Simon Jenkins

rightly says why are they bailing them out? The reason is because of

the sort of crisis that this is. It's a crisis which in old-

fashioned times is an attempt to reduce demand everywhere. It's to

reduce overheating and the way we have tackled the problems since

Thatcher is through monetary devices and not fiscal. Because of

the leaders in this country and Europe we have the dampening down

of the economy, but then goodness, the rich must be saved. It doesn't

matter about the poor, but the rich must be saved. That's why the money

is going into the banks to save the rich. QE saves the rich andle real

problem from start to finish is irresponsible money running around

the world, threatening us and real people. I think we have got the

point. APPLAUSE

It was your party that wasn't ashamed of people being filthy rich,

Chris Bryant. What do you think of this? I think that the original

question was about everybody speaking German. I think everyone

in Europe is speaking English. That is the fact of it. But the problem

is that we are not managing to get our argument across and I agree

with the man up there that it's been an extraordinarily poor, weak

set of leaders that we have had around Europe all at the same time.

What Italy did to deserve Berlusconi I don't understand and

how they kept on voting for him. Sarkozy is only interested in his

re-election next year and Merkel only really interested in trying to

keep the coalition together and poor soul, she has liberals in the

Government as well. I realy do worry about the state of Europe at

the moment. Will is absolutely right to say that if the euro fails

and I see Tory MPs sitting in the House ringing their hands with glee

every time someone mentions this, but not Grant to be fair, at the

idea that the euro fails. If so, our economy will be stuffed not

just for five years, but perhaps 20 years. We - I think we should have

been doing much more to bind together a caucus of Britain,

France and Germany, providing much more leadership on this issue, and

of course, Greece should never have been allowed to join the euro. If

we had said that Europe if you wanted to join you had to subscribe

to enforced audit done externally then we would have known that the

figures were a pack of lies. seem as a politician in a curious

position to be criticising France and Germany, because they have got

elections coming up. You know well that politicians with elections try

to win. Do you prefer to have the bureaucrats in charge now? In Italy,

I would have preferred to have Mario Monti than Berlusconi.

one elected politician in the Government? That's not my favourite,

obviously. Would prefer to have elected governments, but I think -

and democracy is fundamentally one of the reasons why I am not

slightly pro-European, but I'm ardently and passionately pro-

European, because I was brought up in Spain and there was a

dictatorship in Spain. One of the reasons I think that Greece hasn't

gone to a dictatorship in recent weeks is because of its membership

of the EU. The same circumstances 50 years ago led to dictatorship

under the generals. The woman in red. I think the panellists have

avoided the point that man made here. The reason we are in this

mess both in the UK and Europe is because all of them are pursuing

this money trist policy. It's actually the bankers that have come

back and bitten their countries, after they've been bailed out by

them. They now create such high interest rates that the countries

can't pay back the bonds that the banks have bought. It's just a

vicious circle because of the monetary policies being pursued.

Elin Jones, do you agree? I think there is continuing to be

overspeculation in the international monetary markets.

That's why we need the introduction of an international transactions

tax, so that there is a dampening down of international transactions,

but if I can come back to the point about the role of Germany. Germany,

yes, has benefited significantly out of being in the eurozone and

Germany does need to take its responsibility now to provide the

backing for the euro. The UK economic interests requires a

stable and confident eurozone, but forcing Germany to do that from a

UK view, David Cameron earlier this week megaphoneed diplomacy and

euro-sceptic remarks. That is not the way for a UK leader to be

defending the UK compibg interests at this time and seeking to

influence desh economic interests at this time and seeking --

economic interests at this time and seeking to befriend Germany. There

is a major premise, which is that the euro, Europe, anything to do

with it, has to be good. It is going to be a serious problem if we

adopt that attitude. I think it's just possible that something in it

wasn't a good thing. The Europe growth rate before the euro was

introduced was twice as fast than when it was introduced. It was

conceivable that it was a better system before, sometimes. On

Germany, this is off the point, but you can just see what will happen.

Everyone will start getting at Germany and it's now impossible to

turn on the radio, open the newspaper, go to the cinema,

without something to do with the war. We are completely obsessed

with Germany again, just like we were in the 20's. It's a country

that has huge things going for it. If you are going right back and

rethinking the wars in everything we do, every opera in London is

recast in German clothes. It's been true for years. Where I take issue

is I agree there are things about Europe that are not right. The

Common Agricultural Policy is immoral and it means that poor

people in other parts of the world are not able to make a living, but,

in the end the one thing I have learnt out of these last few months

is our economy cannot stand alone. We are involved in Europe. However

much there is a little ringing bell in the back of Tory backbenchers'

heads, which makes them salivate the moment Europe is mentioned. Our

destiny is part of Europe. totally agree, but the point was

made here, it is conceivable that the euro was a Miss Take. --

mistake. You concede that? I'm not conceding. I'm a generous gentleman

and I'm always - I think it was really wrong of George Osborne this

week start undermining the French economy. We need the euro to

survive for our own interests. may come back, firstly, my comments

about Germany were in no way jingoistic. We need to be very

careful about that, but if someone is responsible, then we need to

ensure that we recognise that responsibility and not shy way from

pointing the finger in the right direction. While we are on the

subject of pointing the finger, the reason this collapse has come about

is partly because of monetary systems and the capitalist markets,

but it's only partly. It is mostly because Greece has had a centre-

left socialist Government, which has overspent and borrowed for 30

years and Portugal has had a centre left socialist Government - It was

a Conservative Government. You are wrong. Since 1981 Greece has had a

socialist Government. Rather than arguing about the parties, the

reason that Germany is so powerful is because Germany has a much more

efficient and productive economy and that's what everyone should be

Galloway? Why is our Government pushing up our energy bills by

giving subsidies to wind farms which are proven to be uneconomic?

This is a big issue in the centre of Wales. Why is the Government

pushing up our energy bills by giving subsidies to wind farms

which is uneconomic that the wind farms don't work. Grant Shapps, you

are been under attack. Why are you spending your money in this way?

There are a range of different incentives for renewable energies.

We are on track to do that. Wind is one of those. There's obviously a

balance, a judgment to be made about where the money goes, which

of the various different technologies are supported. Is it

economic or uneconomic to have wind farms? Oh I see. I know there is a

particular issue in Wales and possibly in this part of Wales

about wind farms. I don't want to talk about a specific locality that

I'm not familiar with enough to answer simply because if it was in

my neck of the woods I would know what was going on. What I can tell

you is the overall policy. We do have a policy that says we want to

ensure that wind is a sustainable future, that there is a way of

creating an industry and sometimes industries like this need to be

kick-started and that's the decision that's been made and that

is why there is a certain amount of subsidy in exactly the same way

that there's been subsidy in the past into other industries from

nuclear, to oil, to gas and many others. Let's hear from one or two

members of the audience. Why - the amount of energy that wind farms

produce is very variable. National Grid have said that it is very

difficult to try and predict when the wind is going to blow. And we

have had high pressure last winter when we needed lots of energy and

we got nothing from the wind farms. Are you in favour of the wind

farms? No. Why are you destroying the beautiful areas of mid-Wales to

build these useless pieces of technology? APPLAUSE All right. I

will come back to you. You can hear what people here think. Simon

Jenkins, what do you think of it? don't think we have any on our land,

thank God! I have driven the length of the Upper Severn Valley to see

what they are going to do with the wind turbines and the pylons that

will have to carry this energy down the beautiful valleys of mid-Wales.

Back before the war, Wales sold its valleys to the English for water.

It's now selling its hills to the English for power. APPLAUSE

difference is... A flooded valley has a certain charm to it. I find

no charm in these power stations littering the hills. They don't do

it in North Wales because it is a National Park. They claim they are

beautiful, but they did it all over mid-Wales! It is the most wasteful

way of generating electricity. I am in favour of water, sun, and I'm in

favour of the barrage too. These things, for the price they exact on

the environment, it is a crazy way of spending public money. It is not

as if they make money. We are spending public money ruining the

landscape. It is madness. APPLAUSE You, Sir? Personally, I don't take

the argument that they are unaesthetic. If we need to save

energy, we need to save energy. They aren't the most economical.

Considering the amount of rivers we have here in Wales, would it not be

more usual to use hydroelectric power. Will Hutton, are you in

favour of the windmill? No, I am in favour of renewables and I am in

favour of having as many sources of energy as we can. In the years

ahead, we will not only burn all these fossil fuels, notably oil and

gas, we are going to lift world temperatures by doing it. So we

have to move to other ways of doing energy. As it happens, wind farms

are as the lady said, they are not only expensive but when you want

the power most, like last winter, in December, when it was very cold,

there was no wind. That doesn't mean you then flip from that

statement to saying, "Oh, all renewables are nonsensical." We

have to make commitment to solar, to nuclear, we have to make

commitment to tidal. Windmills you are against? Unless you know -

unless the wind is continuous, which it is out to sea, do it there.

The woman there? One of the things that causes anger in this area is

the extent to which it is a huge scam. We are all paying more for

our electricity bills and the what you are asking is a widow on a

fixed income to pay for a wealthy landowner's life. What annoys me

particularly is when people who are on the left think that it is OK for

people on fixed incomes to be forced into fuel poverty. We all

know the lower your income, the higher proportion you pay in fuel.

That money is going directly into the pockets of the wealthiest

minority of landowners. This surely must be a political scandal? Elin

Jones? APPLAUSE Will you answer her point? Do you agree with her?

agree with a lot of what was said there. I do... Which bit do you

disagree with? I don't think we shared the same view on wind

turbines in particular. That was the main point. I support the

introduction of wind turbines. There are issues about location and

appropriate locations. There is a particular issue in an area not too

far away from here in terms of the density of numbers of wind turbines.

We are in Wales on this west coast, we benefit from the North Atlantic

drift. We have wind at our disposal... You are in favour of

�50 subsidies? It needs to be utilised. Despite the fact it is

affecting increased electricity prices? There are subsidies, yes.

There is considerable... �50 in �100, is that correct? I don't know

if that is correct. I checked, that is the figure. There is

considerable subsidy... Why bother asking?! I'm against nuclear energy.

I'm also against burning of more fossil fuels that affect our

climate. APPLAUSE We have to have a mix of renewable energy. At the

moment, wind energy is part of that. There are more powerful forms of

renewable energy that need to be exploited as well - hydro, tidal,

certainly, and Wales can benefit from a lot of that. Chris Bryant?

agree with the lady who said about the difference between people who

are trapped in energy poverty. In 1986, I was in Latin America. I

came back and I learnt that my mother throughout that winter had

had her electricity cut off because she wasn't able to pay the bill. I

felt terribly ashamed about that. I think there are many people who get

very angry about the fact that energy prices seem to go up very

quickly, when the world prices go up, and they come down very slowly

when the world prices come down. We need to do more to tackle the

problem that there is there of energy companies ripping us off. I

think we do, however, have to deal with the fact that climate change

is a reality. APPLAUSE If we ruin this world, because the temperature

of the water rises by two degrees and you will see not just the

migration patterns that we have had recently, but much, much worse,

because some of the poorest of people live closest to the oceans

and they will lose their homes. We must do everything to have a broad

range of renewable energy. This sentence will make me very

unpopular, but I like the look of them. APPLAUSE I think it should be

for local people to decide whether it happens in their backyard or not.

We will leave the aesthetic... that why the Labour Party are

refusing to seek the devolution of over 100 megawatts of... No, we

will leave wind there. We have five minutes left. I would like to take

this question. It's from Ben Prizeman. It's been reported that

3,500 people have been killed by President Assad of Syria. How many

more people have to die before Britain considers a Libyan-style

intervention? Simon Jenkins? APPLAUSE I'm sorry. It's not my

country. APPLAUSE I was there recently. I think it's a wonderful

place. I admire the people in Syria who are fighting for their freedom.

I admire people anywhere who are fighting for their freedom. It is

not my country. It's my species, you are right. Your voice is the

voice of brute Imperialism down the ages. It is not my country. Libya,

you were against as well? It turned out all right, but I was against it.

I was against Iraq. I'm against Afghanistan. We can't go round

ruling the world any more. I do think that just because we are part

of the world that we do sometimes have a responsibility, in fact we

always have a responsibility, but sometimes we have the ability to do

something about it. That was the case in Libya and it saved probably

hundreds of thousands of lives. I think that to say now that that was

a mistake, to go there and look those people in the face and say it

was a mistake to back them, would be an incredible... Was Iraq a

mistake? We didn't act in Libya until the Arab League made it clear

that they had had enough of what was going on there. They are doing

the same now with what is going on in Syria. Actually, it is very

important that this is led by the Arab League. There are obviously

different dynamics at the UN. The question is right. 3,500 people

have died since March in pretty brutal repression. I don't feel

comfortable just sitting back and saying, "That is OK." We have to do

everything we can. Hang on a second. The question was whether how many

people have to die before Britain considers a Libyan-style

intervention? Look. Every single case is different. The fact that we

might like to intervene in more places doesn't mean we always can.

The fact you can't intervene everywhere doesn't mean you

shouldn't intervene anywhere. In the case of Syria, we are not there

yet because the UN isn't there yet. We had UN backing to look after

what was going on in Libya. sound as though you would consider

it if there were a UN intervention. Do you think Chris Bryant that

should be considered? No, I do want to make sure this stops. Some of

the pictures that we have seen have been hideous. I suspect we have not

seen half of it. One of the things I feel very angry about is the

behaviour of Russia. Russia is one of the countrys that is trying to

prevent a UN agreement. I think we should do everything we possibly

can through reasonable methods, diplomacy as far as we possibly can.

Yes, binding in the Arab League, but it is Russia at the moment

largely because of its own financial and political links with

the leadership in Syria that is preventing an international common

position and their Foreign Minister this morning was disgraceful in

what he was saying. The question is how many more before Britain

considers a Libyan-style intervention? You were in favour as

a former Foreign Minister? I don't vote for it, no. You were against

it? Well, I wasn't present on the day of the vote. I don't want to

overstate... Sorry, was that deliberate? It was. I didn't want...

You abstained? Yes. Do you not agree it is the right thing to do?

I think it turned out right. I was very worried at the beginning

because I felt - a lot of people go and fight on behalf of this country.

I don't want to see more dead British people coming back.

APPLAUSE Will Hutton? Tyranny is tyranny. Deaths are deaths. We have

an obligation to others, that's been true throughout history. If

you find really tyrannous things happening, people inside those

countries look to outsiders to help them. That is the principle we have

to stand by. Do we do it the same way as in Libya? It can't be done

by Britain, which is only a medium- ranking power now. We haven't got

the arsenal to do it. So we have to provide support to the Arab League

and support to others. We should be unashamedly on the side of right in

this position. Unashamedly on the side of the people who want to get

rid of a tyrant. OK. APPLAUSE Elin Jones, if you could - can you

answer the question whether you think Britain should intervene?

not at this stage, certainly. I am pleased to see the Arab League are

taking the lead on this. That is how it should happen. We have

learnt lessons. We have learnt lessons from our soldiers still

being in Afghanistan that it doesn't work well when Western

countries seek to intervene and seek to be sometimes Imperial is

tick. Is that how you saw the Libyan intervention? All these

cases are different. The UN backing, the clear need for intervention in

Libya and in hindsight it seems to have worked well. But in hindsight

Afghanistan hasn't worked well. right. So we need to learn lessons

from the past. But we need to provide support for the Arab League

in making sure that President Assad is not able to carry on with

killing his own people. Thank you. We must stop. Our time is up.

Apologies to those who didn't get a chance to speak. Next week we are

in Bath. We have the founder of Wikipedia on our panel, the website

that makes experts of all of us. The Energy Secretary Chris Huhne

and Justin King, the boss of Sainsbury's. Then we will be in

Dagenham. Do come. The number to Or you can apply on