31/05/2012 Question Time


31/05/2012

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Tonight, we near the Temple Speech Room at Rugby School, in Rugby.

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Welcome to Question Time. On our panel here, the

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international development minister, Alan Duncan.

:00:26.:00:30.

The shadow Home Office minister, Stella Creasy. The former Liberal

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Democrats home affairs spokesman, Mark Oaten, who has written a book

:00:33.:00:39.

about how coalitions don't work. The editor of the Spectator and

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columnist for the Daily Telegraph, Fraser Nelson and the broadcaster

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:00:53.:00:57.

Victoria Coren. APPLAUSE

:00:57.:01:06.

Thank you very much. Michael Thomas has a question. After pasty,

:01:06.:01:13.

caravan and charity tax U-turns, is the Chancellor competent?

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Fraser Nelson? I think there is certainly a pattern emerging. We're

:01:19.:01:24.

on U-turn number 35, by my counts. The pattern seems to be, act first,

:01:24.:01:28.

think later, reverse it if it is a problem. It is a bit worrying. It's

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a problem for the Conservatives. People can forgive the Tories for

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being heartless. You bring a Tory Government in to make cuts. To be

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heartless and hopeless is a fatal combination. I mean, individually

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these things are not a problem - the caravan tax, pasty tax - but

:01:49.:01:52.

they have a cumulative effect which make you worry if the Government

:01:52.:01:57.

knows what is going on. I think the problem also is that if you get a

:01:57.:02:01.

reputation for U-turning, then it invites confrontation. Sooner or

:02:01.:02:05.

later, there'll be probably a confrontation with the trade unions

:02:05.:02:09.

in a way there has not been so far. The unions will look at this

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Government and will think, if he can't stand up to Greg the Baker,

:02:14.:02:24.
:02:24.:02:27.

how will he stand up to the -- Len McClusky. Everybody pushes them, a

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Baker or a celebrity and the Government folds. So it looks weak,

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incompetent and not a good look at -- all.

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APPLAUSE The question was specifically about

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George Osborne rather than the Government - is he competent?

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would like to think so. I am not writing off George Osborne yet.

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He's had a catastrophic Budget. Maybe he should not have taken that

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week holiday to see Barack Obama the week before the Budget. This

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one is still exploding even now. It does make you wonder how much

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effort is put into the growth strategy if you see how little he

:03:16.:03:20.

has thought about smaller things. Looking at the results, we are not

:03:20.:03:24.

seeing much economic recovery now. I am worrying if we'll get a

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recovery by the next election. That is what I will judge George Osborne

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on, not the caravan, not the pasties but whether we get some

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growth. Journalism is about sensation and good, strong views.

:03:38.:03:41.

Whenever a politician changes his mind, it's not oh, good he has

:03:41.:03:46.

changed his mind because he has listen to what he's said, it is

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massive U-turn, Government in chaos. That is the business you're in.

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We're in the business, the democracy business of saying, this

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is what we'll do. When you put things out to

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consultation it is for that purpose and why is it therefore that when

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we respond, having listened to the arguments and change our mind, you

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say what you have just said. I think George Osborne is

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competent.Ly tell you why: We are face -- I will tell you high: We

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are facing some of the biggest economic changes in my lifetime. We

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are looking around the world at countries which falling to bits,

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facing civil strife in the streets. We are not in that position because

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this coalition Government has got to grips with some of the biggest

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economic challenges we'll ever see in our lifetime. By staying out of

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the single currency 20 years ago, fortunately we are able to

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respond.... You cannot give George Osborne the credit for that. He was

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not even out of school. He was, actually. On the point raised, are

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you suggesting all budget measures are out for consultation - it is an

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idea and then we sit around and say, we like this bit, we don't like

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that bit? Of course not. Some things are

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decided on the day. That is why at the end of the Budget speech

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Parliament agrees to change certain tax levels and things like that.

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The key thing - and you cannot accuse us of an U-turn on this - is

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getting finances back in order is back on course. That is why we've

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got... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE We have such low interest rates. If we were

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to do what Ed Balls was saying, to pay off a mortgage with a mortgage,

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we would have higher interest rates. Everyone in this room, unless they

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had large cash savings would be suffering. I will tell you high

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this matters. If I were the Chancellor, the thing that would

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exercise me the most is that businesses and companies in this

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country are sitting on �750 billion worth of cash and deposits. They

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are sitting on it as rainy Damonny, because they have no confidence at

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-- rainy Damonny, because they have no confidence at all. They are not

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making investments. That is the general point. What about the U-

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turns announced? When you look at a Chancellor who cannot decide

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whether he likes pasties, hot, cold or gently warmed, you can

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understand why they are not confident about our Government and

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the choices they are making. What I see in the 35, and possibly rising

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U-turns, is somebody incoherent about caravans and pasties, is

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wrong about where our economy is going and the kind of things we

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need to do to generate jobs in this country, so we are not spending

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less on welfare, but getting taxes back on because people are in work.

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That is why people are so worried and frightened about what he's

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doing. APPLAUSE

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Years ago, even the slightest Budget leak was a major resignation

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issue. Now the whole thing is trailed in public weeks before.

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This is a good thing or a bad thing?

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I think it has been a good result for the pasty tax. If it was not

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devised we would not have the joy of seeing the Labour high command

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being in Gregs pretending they had not been in one before. It is

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astonishing footage. You said we should respect the fact he changed

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his mind. We have to factor in he thought of it in the first place.

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This is a Government of people. Here is this Tory high command,

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generally the key figures of massive personal wealth.

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Embarrassing pictures of them floating around in black tie.

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Winston Churchill was posh. They know that is the problem they have.

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And then they have this idea, they are going to tax pasties and

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caravans. They are going to identify things that the absolutely

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poorest people in the country enjoy and hammer them. Now, that was not

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a very clever idea in the first place. The fact he thinks better of

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it - OK, well, but he should not have thought of it to begin with. I

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will not say that George Osborne is incompetent - that would be

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disrespectful. He is the Chancellor. I would say, if I was going on

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holiday and needed someone to look after my flat and feed the cat, I

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:08:41.:08:43.

would not ask George Osborne. Mark Oaten?

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To answer the question directly, no, I don't think he is incompetent. To

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some extent, looking back on politics over the past 20 years we

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go through a cycle of a politician says something, there's a big fuss,

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they should change it and then they do change it and then there is a

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big fuss because it is a U-turn. We've all done it. The danger is

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when a politician really should change something, because it is

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wrong, they don't, because they are skoir scared about the big fuss

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there'll be over a U-turn. However, the question has to be asked, was,

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what I would call a common sense factor put into these measures? Was

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somebody lying in bed in the morning and thinking? If they

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thought, can you really introduce a tax on whether it is hot, cold,

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semi hot or cold, can you start to take on the charitable sector in

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this country? If somebody laid in the bed longer in the morning and

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put the common sense factor into this then they would not have

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introduce these measures. Have a lie-in and put the common sense in,

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in the future. APPLAUSE I think the way it is

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going, George Osborne will get the sack. I would like to see if he

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could do a U-turn on student loans before he loses his job! You think

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Osborne is going? I think the minister will go. We have to be a

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U-turn on student fees as soon as Politics is basically a PR exercise,

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rather than people going fundamentally with what they

:10:28.:10:34.

believe and seeking to leave, as opposed to manage opinion: You mean

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they are not getting on with the job?

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It is managing and therefore when there is a kickback, if you believe

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that, let's stick with it. If you think it will be good for the

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country, stick with it. There have been measures in the past which

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have been unpopular, but time has turned out it has been the right

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thing to do. So stick with that. you want to join the Twitter

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debate: If you want to join in the debate

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yourself physically, we'll be in Inverness next week. Details of how

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to join that programme are on the screen.

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A question now from Lias Eaton. is right for doctors to strike over

:11:21.:11:31.
:11:31.:11:34.

a pension that most of us can only I feel very torn by this issue. I

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have already had a number of people in my constituency come to me and

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say they are worried about what will happen on the date that the

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doctors have said they want to go on strike. I have talked to doctors

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and nurses who feel pushed to the limit by what this Government has

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done to the NHS. In answer to your question, no, if I am honest, I

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don't think it is the right thing to do at this point in time. All of

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us need to put pressure on the Government to take their

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responsibility. The doctors are saying, we want to negotiate and we

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cannot even get the Secretary of State around the table. We have

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seen other secretaries of state being willing to get around the

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table and talk to unions about difficult changes, which everybody

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recognises will need to happen. Why Mr Lansley thinks it is beneath him

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to talk to doctors, so avoid these situations in the first place, is

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beneath me? -- is beyond me. It is a pension

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most can only dream of? It is something which will have to change.

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We know there are difficult choices. One thing is the Hutton Report. We

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started the Hutton Report. Jon Hutton is saying the Government is

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going about this the wrong way. The difficult changes we made in

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Government we did in partnership with the unions. We got there and

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we made difficult changes. This Government is going for

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confrontation first and conversation later. You say it is a

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pension most people can only dream of - I understand what you are

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saying - but these doctors are not just lucked into this pension.

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Doctors train for seven years. They start their working lives later

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than any professional. They have to work 40 years and they spend that

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time, most of them, covered in blood, seeing terrible things,

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watching people die. It is a tough life that demands massive

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concentration, long, long hours, very hard work. They have not just

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been found in the street and handed this pension. Also, a doctor's

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salary is very sharp and steep. They start very low, so being told

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that instead of getting their final salary they will get an average,

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that will hurt them a lot more than I would comparable professionals

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because of how jaged it is. They will have a sympathy problem. I

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don't think as people say - I think most people will be disappointed

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with their GP, they feel short changed. I will not be tricked into

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that argument, all these doctors, they are all riched, what are they

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complaining about? It is dangerous to start this idea of any public

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sector workers being greedy and demanding. I don't think people are

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as stupid as we are being led to think. I don't think people are

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cruel. I think the fact lots of us are struggling doesn't mean we'll

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not feeling sorry for someone having their pension cut. It is not

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the doctors' fault there is a financial crisis. It is not their

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fault that all Governments of recent years failed to address the

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demographic problem, there would be a problem with pensions for

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everyone. We should not be misled into thinking there is no money for

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these public sector workers when there was money to be pumped into

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:15:00.:15:05.

the banks and paid to people as Surely this argument is saying that

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the money that is going to their pensions being taken out of other

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services elsewhere, surely we could free up this money by getting rid

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of the red tape and managers in the NHS and rewarding doctors for

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something they do really well and making it easier for them to do it

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byry moving the bureaucracy around their day-to-day lives. Do you

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think the strike is right? that's what's needed to improve the

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service then for a short time yes. The woman behind you? I don't agree

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with Victoria. Anyone entering the profession of doctor, their first

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objective should be altruism and the second is care. They are being

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paid a lot more than the average nurses or whoever they are. They've

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been asked... They've trained seven years to get this job. It is not

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about how much they are paid but how much money there is. The

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problem about missing money is people who are not doctors, and

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don't let anyone trick you into being angry with doctors because

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the country can't afford to pay them. But this is against the

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Hippocratic oath. Non-emergency services only. It doesn't matter to

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the general public to. The general public it instils fear to. The

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elderly it instils fear. I think it is sacrificing the Hippocratic oath

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to the altar of greed. I'm sorry, I do not agree with the strike.

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APPLAUSE The woman on that side. There are two points I want to make.

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Firstly, there is no harming the Hippocratic oath. They are going to

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treat emergencies. If someone turns up at the doctor's dying, they are

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going to get treated. And secondly, with student fees going up, if you

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are at uni five years paying 9 grand a year, that's 40 grand on

:17:09.:17:13.

tuition, not including just living, including the uniform you have to

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pay for yourself, doctors have to buy their own scrubs and books.

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Doctors are putting a lot of their own money into going into that

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profession in the first place and they should have a decent amount of

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financial reward and be able to live comfortably when they reach

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old age. APPLAUSE Mark Oaten? question was clear: should they

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strike? The answer is no, I don't think they should strike. I would

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have some sympathy with the medical profession if it was striking over

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a measure where they felt that the measure was going to harm patient

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care. Then I would have some sympathy, but this is purely about

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self interest and their pension, and that is why I don't think it is

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acceptable. Will it put a lot of patients, whether they are

:18:01.:18:07.

emergency or not, give them misery, they turn up for the operation and

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it is cancelled or delayed. I'm slightly queuesed that only half of

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the doctors voted on this issue in the ballot. So if people really

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cared that strongly about it, why did only half vote? The big issue

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is there's a pensions time bomb taking place. We are all having to

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take touch choices on this and the doctors should be part of that.

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APPLAUSE If what this Government does means that the entirety of the

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public pension pot changes because of the changes they make, we will

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all be worse off. I don't think the GPs are going to pull out. As far

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as the doctors breaking the Hippocratic oath, what other choice

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do they have? This Government has shown that any negotiations they

:18:56.:19:02.

have with unions they end up with threats to strike. The PR machine

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of the Conservative Government needs a revamp. Alan Duncan, do you

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want to answer that? First of all, this is not about the reform of the

:19:09.:19:14.

health service, but pension. Mark is right, we have a public sector

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pensions time bomb. What this issue is about is trying to get a fair

:19:18.:19:23.

deal for doctors m of whom are earning over �100,000 and under

:19:23.:19:27.

their current contributions can get pension after they've retired in

:19:27.:19:33.

excess of �55,000 or �60,000. Some of them will get a pension that the

:19:34.:19:38.

level for perhaps 25 years. At the moment they are paying a

:19:38.:19:41.

contribution which in no way reflects the cost of that pension.

:19:41.:19:46.

If they were in the private sector they would have had to save �1

:19:46.:19:50.

million or more to finance that pension. What we are asking the

:19:50.:19:54.

doctors to do, which is no more than we are asking people in the

:19:54.:19:57.

country to do, and if you are in the private sector you might not

:19:57.:20:00.

have a pension, is to increase their contribution. We are asking

:20:01.:20:04.

the doctors, because they are living longer and they have what at

:20:04.:20:09.

the moment is a very well-resourced pension package to contribute more

:20:09.:20:15.

towards the cost of that package. How can you have allowed it end

:20:15.:20:20.

up... APPLAUSE How can you have allowed it to end up in a position

:20:20.:20:23.

where the doctors take in huge advertisements in the paper saying

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they've been forced to take industrial action because you are

:20:26.:20:30.

not listening to them? I don't accept that argument. Andrew

:20:30.:20:34.

Lansley, his job in opposition and now in Government for seven years,

:20:34.:20:38.

sits down regularly with them. And elsewhere in the public sector

:20:38.:20:43.

today we have reached agreement about what will be life-time

:20:43.:20:48.

measured benefits for pensions. This is not. This is a final salary

:20:48.:20:53.

pension with contribution. So asking the doctors to contribute a

:20:53.:20:56.

higher percentage of their monthly salary to help contribute and pay

:20:56.:21:00.

for that pension is, in my view, perfectly fair. I think they are

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wrong to go on strike. I think they've been whipped up a bit by

:21:04.:21:08.

some people in the profession. It is unfair and unreasonable for them

:21:08.:21:15.

to do what they are doing. I think that some of the comments we've

:21:15.:21:18.

heard here more accurately understand what's going on. The nan

:21:18.:21:22.

the checked shirt. Tinge rhetoric of the Government is all wrong. It

:21:22.:21:27.

seems to be creating this divide between the public sector and

:21:27.:21:33.

private sector. That's making goegs difficult. I think to your point as

:21:33.:21:38.

-- that's making negotiation difficult. It does not make any

:21:38.:21:42.

sense to any of us who are desperately worried about patient

:21:42.:21:46.

care, and the doctors are worried about patient care, that Government

:21:46.:21:51.

will not get round the table and negotiate with then. Why not say

:21:51.:21:55.

you will negotiate with doctors to avert this strike? It is about

:21:55.:21:58.

their pension, not patient care. The reason we are in this

:21:58.:22:02.

difficulty is that Governments are prone to promise what they can't

:22:02.:22:07.

deliver in order to buy votes, and in the end someone has to say I'm

:22:07.:22:14.

sorry, we can't honour that, you will have to pay more, and tour

:22:14.:22:20.

blame. Fraser Nelson? Over the last 15 years we've seen the elimination

:22:20.:22:24.

of private sector pensions. Hardly anyone at work can look forward to

:22:24.:22:29.

the kind of pension they could woo have got 20 years. There's a lot of

:22:29.:22:35.

pain being suffered, 1 million jobs in the private sector. In the

:22:35.:22:38.

public sector manages of workers are getting a pay freeze. They are

:22:38.:22:43.

not going on strike. It seems odd that doctors who are getting six-

:22:43.:22:48.

figure salaries, and the last Labour Government negotiated their

:22:48.:22:51.

contract, they did well out of that. My heart doesn't bleed for them. I

:22:51.:22:57.

think they are way down the public sympathy list. Millions of public

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sector workers are suffering just as bad. Doctors the work hard, but

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so do nurses. They are up to their arms in... APPLAUSE We don't see

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nurses going on strike. I think people with greater cause to go on

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strike but they aren't. I to take one or two points from the audience.

:23:23.:23:30.

Madam in the front row. I think the doctors at the moment,

:23:30.:23:33.

in their, they are intelligent people, they haven't been on strike

:23:33.:23:37.

for 40 years, so you have to bear that in mind that they've thought

:23:37.:23:44.

about this. To pick on the doctors, you've got teachers coming up soon

:23:44.:23:48.

and they are maybe going on strike action. Again, intelligent people.

:23:48.:23:52.

They want to do the best for their students. They've thought about

:23:52.:23:58.

this and maybe they've reached their limit. And you Sir? I think

:23:58.:24:03.

this pensions issue is the tip of an enormous iceberg and this is

:24:03.:24:08.

just the start. I'm more concerned about what signalled, what signal

:24:08.:24:13.

this sends from doctors to all the sectors of the public sector unions,

:24:13.:24:18.

nurses and everyone who has to face this problem over the coming years.

:24:18.:24:22.

OK. A last point, you Sir. We've been talking about doctors and

:24:22.:24:28.

someone mentioned teachers. If I were to pay in for 40 years an 8%

:24:28.:24:32.

contribution I would have funded three years of my salary. If people

:24:32.:24:37.

are going to retire and draw a pension for 20 years it doesn't

:24:37.:24:46.

take a genius to work out that it is unaffordable. APPLAUSE

:24:46.:24:54.

We'll go on. Simon McAusland please. Would the UK be justified in

:24:54.:24:58.

banning Syrian delegation members with connections to the Bashar al-

:24:58.:25:05.

Assad regime from the London 2012 Olympics? I suppose General Juma,

:25:05.:25:09.

the President of the Olympic committee. Mark Oaten, what do you

:25:09.:25:14.

think? To be honest that's a pretty small gesture to make, given what's

:25:14.:25:20.

taking place. If that is the only response we can have to the events

:25:20.:25:26.

in Syria, that's a pretty poor show. The reality is that the solution to

:25:26.:25:30.

Syria is not going to be about taking those kinds of gestures. It

:25:30.:25:34.

has to be about trying to get backbone into the United Nations

:25:34.:25:38.

and the measures being put through there. When I look at what's

:25:38.:25:42.

happening in Syria, two things trouble me. The first is that the

:25:42.:25:45.

UN is powerless. Kofi Annan is trying to get this measure in place.

:25:45.:25:49.

It is being ignored that. Said a lot about the power of the United

:25:49.:25:54.

Nations. The second issue is just how influential the Russians are in

:25:54.:25:58.

this and the destiny of Syria is dependent on Russia. That's why it

:25:58.:26:02.

was right that William Hague did all he could to try to tackle the

:26:02.:26:07.

issue with the Russianings recently. It is going be that -- with the

:26:07.:26:13.

Russians when when he met them recently. Whether there is the

:26:13.:26:16.

stomach for military intervention is questionable. While what we see

:26:16.:26:21.

is horrendous I'm not sure the British public would necessarily

:26:21.:26:24.

support military intervention. The solution will have to be much

:26:24.:26:26.

bigger than banning officials from turning up at the Olympics.

:26:26.:26:32.

APPLAUSE I agree with your point that you

:26:32.:26:37.

have to ban, you can't just ban officials, but does it apply to

:26:37.:26:42.

other countries who've abused human rights? Does it only apply to Syria

:26:42.:26:47.

or will you have to impose it on other countries as well?

:26:47.:26:51.

coalition Government have said they will have a power, if you like, to

:26:51.:26:55.

refuse visas for individuals connected with human rights abuses.

:26:55.:27:00.

That is a good thing and it sends the right message, but it is a

:27:00.:27:04.

small gesture to be making. Tinge Olympic committee have shown how

:27:04.:27:07.

little they care about human rights abuses. Look at Saudi Arabia. This

:27:07.:27:11.

week they are not sending a single woman to the Olympics. The Olympic

:27:11.:27:19.

committee have done absolutely nothing. Fraser Nelson?

:27:19.:27:25.

I think the banning of the del gay, I'm not sure we have the powers to

:27:25.:27:31.

do that -- the bang of the del gay, I'm not sure we have the powers to

:27:31.:27:35.

do that. Fit was within our power it's the least we can do. The

:27:35.:27:43.

terrifying thing is we can see this blood-bath which is ongoing. In the

:27:43.:27:46.

last year 7,000 people have been killed by the Bashar al-Assad

:27:46.:27:50.

regime and we are talking about whether to ban people coming to

:27:50.:27:54.

watch sports. It does seem incredibly frustrating but I can't

:27:54.:27:59.

see what more we can do. There are calls in America right now for

:27:59.:28:05.

military action to say we should go in there as we did in other

:28:05.:28:11.

countries and impose a no-fly zone or arm the rebels. I can't see why

:28:11.:28:14.

we believe the rebels would be that much better than the Bashar al-

:28:14.:28:20.

Assad regime. It is complicated and we should resist the thought to

:28:20.:28:25.

think that it would make things better. Kite lead to greater

:28:25.:28:32.

carnage and chaos. I really don't see this many more options thon the

:28:32.:28:38.

Olympics to us. What about sanctions? Sure. There are so many

:28:38.:28:42.

things we could do diplomatically but I'm not convinced we should

:28:42.:28:46.

succumb to this reaction Britain we tend to shape the world rather than

:28:46.:28:52.

be shaped be it. We are the country who helps people being oppressed.

:28:52.:28:57.

But this is a tinder-box of a nation which I think could be made

:28:57.:29:07.
:29:07.:29:11.

Can you clarify the point - can the Home Secretary ban anybody she

:29:11.:29:15.

chooses, regardless of whether they are taking part in the Olympic

:29:15.:29:19.

Games? I am not sure what the legal position would be, compared to the

:29:19.:29:23.

agreement you have to sign when you host the Olympics. I don't want to

:29:23.:29:28.

myself lead you on this. -- miss lead you on this.

:29:28.:29:33.

The Prime Minister has not signed the agreement. I am not sure. The

:29:33.:29:39.

key point is the Syrian point. I agree with Mark and Fraser. We are

:29:39.:29:44.

looking at the most disgusting situation in Syria. We are

:29:44.:29:47.

frustrated at the sense of powerlessness to deal with it. We

:29:47.:29:53.

can only do what is legal and that means UN Resolutions. William Hague

:29:53.:29:58.

and the Prime Minister have been driving that agenda in the UN as

:29:58.:30:03.

hard as they can. There are obstacles, in this case Russia, on

:30:03.:30:08.

which Hillary Clinton has today said something. The number of

:30:08.:30:13.

people dead in Syria is estimated between 10,000-15,000. You are

:30:13.:30:18.

looking at the most complicated, intertwined sectarian conflict in

:30:18.:30:23.

the country. The UN is key. At the moment, in the department in which

:30:23.:30:28.

I am a minister, the department is key to the humanitarian attempts,

:30:28.:30:32.

which we are contributing to. Even they are very difficult to put into

:30:32.:30:36.

practise. How would things differ the Russians came on side and in

:30:36.:30:42.

agreement with the rest of the UN? You are still not talking about

:30:42.:30:48.

arming the rebels or providing safe areas, or no-fly zones? What is it

:30:48.:30:53.

the Russians would bring that they are not at the moment? It is so

:30:53.:30:57.

complicated that military action could cause more of a trouble than

:30:57.:31:02.

it addresses. What Russian support could do is put effective pressure

:31:02.:31:07.

on the regime in a way that the UN, without Russia, cannot. Pressure on

:31:07.:31:13.

Assad and his cronies could make a massive difference from only the

:31:13.:31:19.

Russians would come on board. UN are key to solving the Syrian

:31:19.:31:23.

crisis, but they are toothless tigers. Everybody ignores what they

:31:23.:31:28.

say. They have meetings, they come up with strongly-worded

:31:28.:31:31.

declarations and everybody ignores them. This conflict could escalate.

:31:31.:31:36.

If you have Qatar and Saudi Arabia, allegedly supplying arms to the

:31:36.:31:42.

opposition. You have Iran allegedly supplying arms to the regime. If we

:31:42.:31:45.

get involved in military action that region will explode. What

:31:45.:31:50.

would you like to see happen? think we have to strengthen the UN.

:31:51.:31:56.

Russia has got to come on board with them and then the peace

:31:56.:32:03.

process has to be started, and Kofi Annan's policies have got to be

:32:03.:32:07.

adhered to. The UN can only be as strong as it is allowed and

:32:07.:32:13.

authorised to be by member-states. You have to look at the member-

:32:13.:32:18.

states. If we had more monitors, it may be a step in reducing the

:32:18.:32:23.

atrocities. There is a limit to what they can do.

:32:24.:32:27.

My question is for Mr Duncan - what sanctions is the Government

:32:27.:32:34.

imposing on countries such as Syria with human rights abuses, with the

:32:34.:32:38.

forthcoming arm treaty, such as international development aid?

:32:38.:32:43.

don't have a development programme in Syria, and in due course, come

:32:43.:32:49.

July in the negotiations, we hope there'll be an international arms

:32:49.:32:53.

trade treaty. At the moment you could look at financial sanctions,

:32:53.:32:57.

targeted at individuals and we have to look at the International

:32:57.:33:01.

Criminal Court. We have to make them fearful of the future and make

:33:01.:33:07.

them now they cannot get away with what they are doing. I represent an

:33:07.:33:12.

area in north-east London. The idea that anybody was involved in what

:33:12.:33:18.

we saw in Houla - a genocide. We saw women and children tortured in

:33:18.:33:23.

their homes, it makes me feel sick to my stomach. I hope the British

:33:23.:33:28.

delegation is part of the, the Olympic committee is making strong

:33:28.:33:33.

reputations on it. I believe military intervention is probably

:33:33.:33:38.

not ideal, not least because there is not support in the comounty of

:33:38.:33:43.

Syria itself. The Syrian -- community of Syria itself. The

:33:43.:33:46.

Syrian partners are divided on this point. Just because we cannot do

:33:46.:33:50.

that does not mean we cannot do something about the situation in

:33:50.:33:55.

Syria. Where I take exception is we can be more creative. The gentleman

:33:56.:34:00.

talked about sanctions, there is already an oil embargo with Syria

:34:00.:34:05.

at the moment. It covers the European nations. How much stronger

:34:05.:34:09.

would it be if it covered other countries importing oil to Syria.

:34:09.:34:15.

There are things we can do to cut off the Assad regime. We have to

:34:15.:34:18.

see naming of the people involved in this bloodbath that is taking

:34:18.:34:23.

place in Syria, not just at the top, but the generals on the ground,

:34:23.:34:27.

people ordering the massacres we are seeing, so they know they will

:34:27.:34:32.

face the full floor of the International Criminal Courts. We

:34:32.:34:35.

must not forget the humanitarian issues. There are difficult

:34:36.:34:39.

conversations to be had with their neighbours. We can be part of the

:34:39.:34:44.

conversations. Fraser is right, we cannot solve any of these issues on

:34:44.:34:49.

our own, but we can be part of a community working together to

:34:49.:34:59.
:34:59.:35:00.

address those issues. APPLAUSE Victoria Coren? All this talk of

:35:00.:35:05.

generally what should be done about Syria, everybody said sitcomly

:35:05.:35:13.

kaited. I hate it. -- -- say it is complicated. I hate it. The

:35:13.:35:17.

question about the Olympic is not complicated. Should they come here?

:35:17.:35:23.

No, they are disgusting. You say you are worried if you cannot ban

:35:23.:35:29.

them. I'll do it. Give me a water cannon, I'll go to the airport!

:35:29.:35:37.

A question from Jennifer Smith. the continual revelations from the

:35:37.:35:44.

Leveson Inquiry put into doubt the personal judgment of David Cameron?

:35:44.:35:51.

Presumably in Jeremy Hunt handling the affair with BSkyB and Murdoch,

:35:51.:35:58.

yes? The Leveson Inquiry. Why do you say that - soap opera. I missed

:35:58.:36:02.

two episodes, now I have no idea what is going on. It is like a

:36:02.:36:05.

full-time job. Every day. They are on Twitter, this one has gone, this

:36:05.:36:10.

one has gone. I've lost the plot. Tell me if I am wrong. I understand

:36:10.:36:14.

what came out today is Jeremy Hunt, before it was announced, well

:36:14.:36:18.

stopped before then, but before there was an outside for the bid

:36:18.:36:23.

for BSkyB, it turned out he sent a text to James Murdoch saying,

:36:23.:36:29.

"We've done it. I love you. Are we going to mum or dad's for Christmas

:36:29.:36:32.

this year?" David Cameron said, it is fine. It has my full support, no

:36:32.:36:36.

problem with him staying in the job. Is that what was said today?

:36:37.:36:42.

will do. Yes, well I think that is hilarious.

:36:42.:36:52.
:36:52.:36:54.

What I find.... Said great and congrat on -- congrats on Brussels.

:36:54.:36:58.

That is what we want between the press baron and the Government. It

:36:58.:37:02.

proves why that relationship is too close. I was talking to someone

:37:02.:37:08.

about it on the train, is should he be fired? I said, yes, of course he

:37:08.:37:11.

should, this is ridiculous. This closeness is too corrupt. Of course

:37:11.:37:15.

he should be fired. Had I ever met Jeremy Hunt, no doubt I would say,

:37:16.:37:21.

oh, he seems like a nice chap, he's a nice guy, seems well, he should

:37:21.:37:25.

not be fired. That is why journalists and politicians should

:37:25.:37:30.

not mix that closely. Each needs to keep a cold, clear eye on the other.

:37:31.:37:34.

It is not happening and there is something very wrong.

:37:34.:37:43.

APPLAUSE Stella Creasy? I think the

:37:43.:37:47.

questioner is right to say, what does this tell us about the

:37:47.:37:53.

minister? What we have seen, it was not just that he was sending a

:37:53.:37:56.

number of text messages, it is that Jeremy Hunt came to Parliament and

:37:56.:38:01.

told us none of this was happening. It is clear from the evidence we

:38:01.:38:05.

have seen at the Leveson Inquiry that he misled Parliament. He told

:38:05.:38:10.

us he had no contact with this gentleman. Now we have seen text

:38:10.:38:19.

messages about mama and papa. It is like the Renault Clio adverts.

:38:19.:38:29.
:38:29.:38:30.

did they go? I cannot believe I am saying this on TV, but "Papa?"

:38:31.:38:36.

But, my point is there was clearly a cosy relationship. We were sure

:38:36.:38:42.

Jeremy Hunt was making a decision without reference to the influence

:38:42.:38:44.

of News International. Crucially David Cameron said to us, well, if

:38:44.:38:51.

it comes out in the course of the Leveson Inquiry that he has misled

:38:51.:38:55.

Parliament or there is information he has broken the Ministerial

:38:55.:38:58.

Code,ly refer it. That came out today. David Cameron said, I will

:38:58.:39:03.

not refer it, nothing to see here. There has been a transgression in

:39:03.:39:06.

the Ministerial Code. It is very worrying and concerning that a

:39:06.:39:16.
:39:16.:39:18.

Prime Minister seems so blas say about it. Nicol - thank you!

:39:18.:39:23.

I don't think it reflects badly on David Cameron or Jeremy Hunt. Let

:39:23.:39:27.

me tell you something - judges have opinions. When they are sitting in

:39:27.:39:31.

court they will probably know the barristers in front of them, might

:39:31.:39:36.

be members of the same club. What matters is how does the judge

:39:36.:39:40.

behave when sitting in his judicial capacity? Properly and according to

:39:40.:39:46.

the law? Let me finish... Why was Vince

:39:46.:39:53.

Cable sacked for having the same... APPLAUSE

:39:53.:39:59.

Because, he had been taped saying that he was declaring war. So he

:39:59.:40:03.

was tape and the other was text. There's no difference. There is a

:40:03.:40:08.

massive difference. He said he had declared war on the Murdoch empire

:40:08.:40:14.

and, basically wanted to do down them at all costs. Jeremy Hunt

:40:14.:40:22.

never said that. He was made in charge of... He was put in charge

:40:22.:40:27.

of the bid. As soon as he was put in charge of the bid, following

:40:27.:40:30.

legal advice and from his officials and referring to Ofcom, doing

:40:30.:40:34.

things which were not the things that the Murdoch empire would have

:40:34.:40:40.

liked, behaved meticulously. That is what was clear from the witness

:40:40.:40:44.

before the Leveson Inquiry today. All this talk about texts, they all

:40:44.:40:49.

happened before. In the same way as judges set aside their personal

:40:49.:40:52.

opinions and look at the facts, that is exactly what Jeremy Hunt

:40:52.:40:57.

did once he was entrusted with ministerial responsibility. He said

:40:57.:41:05.

to Cameron in a memo - I think it would be totally wrong to cave into

:41:05.:41:13.

the anti- coalition case. He was in favour of the bid.

:41:13.:41:23.
:41:23.:41:23.

He's not a lawyer, he a politician, I is a -- which is a false analogy.

:41:23.:41:28.

It is not being a judge. That is what sectors of state have to do on

:41:28.:41:34.

a number of issues. The question is whether the judgment was right.

:41:34.:41:39.

judge is not passing judgment on the barrister. What if the judge

:41:39.:41:46.

was out with a man accused of theft - would that be OK? He consulted

:41:46.:41:53.

them. Even when I am making small decisions as a minister we act on

:41:53.:41:56.

advice. We don't just sit there and say, I am a politician, I believe

:41:56.:42:02.

that, do that. We look at options presented to us by civil servants

:42:02.:42:08.

it is meticulously so in this bid. Why didn't Jeremy Hunt tell

:42:08.:42:11.

Parliament about it? He told Parliament none of this had

:42:11.:42:17.

happened. What we are seeing is it did.

:42:17.:42:25.

He said no contact between him and Fred Michel. Ministers should not

:42:25.:42:33.

misled Parliament - yes or no? He did not miss lead Parliament.

:42:33.:42:39.

Misleading Parliament is a very serious offence. I have are reread

:42:39.:42:46.

Jeremy Hunt's answers. He said he had zero contact with Fred Michel.

:42:46.:42:50.

I thought the Prime Minister would make good on his word. He said if

:42:50.:42:54.

new evidence arose he would refer it to the independent commissioner.

:42:54.:42:59.

He said today that he is not going to do that.

:42:59.:43:04.

Mark Oaten? I am a core participant in Leveson. I have been following

:43:04.:43:08.

it with interest. Here is the thing I don't get, it answers the point

:43:08.:43:12.

about the judgment, given the vacancy occurred because the Prime

:43:12.:43:17.

Minister had to take a view that Vince Cable was not cable of doing

:43:17.:43:24.

this, you -- capable of doing this. You would have thought the first

:43:24.:43:29.

question the Prime Minister would ask, having got rid of somebody

:43:29.:43:34.

whose judgment was clouded, would check the next person who did it

:43:34.:43:38.

would not make similar statements. In the full knowledge of the

:43:39.:43:42.

statements that had been made. point is that the sensible thing to

:43:42.:43:46.

have done, at the point when Vince Cable made the comments, is for the

:43:46.:43:49.

Prime Minister to turn around and say, I don't think any politician

:43:49.:43:53.

is capable of taking this decision, because they will all have strong

:43:53.:43:57.

views on the media and Murdoch and maybe we need to take these kind of

:43:57.:44:01.

decisions away from politicians and give them to people who genuinely

:44:01.:44:06.

are independent, without any bag age. All politicians come with

:44:06.:44:09.

baggage, particularly when contexted to newspapers. I can tell

:44:10.:44:19.

you that from experience. Regarding how close they are to the

:44:19.:44:24.

media, don't you have sympathy with politicians, because they are under

:44:24.:44:30.

so much influence. News Corp, (Inaudible) they barely have a

:44:30.:44:35.

choice to support BSkyB or not. When I was a politician you are

:44:35.:44:39.

constantly involved with journalists. They invite you to

:44:39.:44:46.

lunch, you have drinks, and you hope you get better coverage. It

:44:46.:44:52.

gets very cosy and what we've seen from Leveson is just how cosy it

:44:52.:44:59.

was getting. I love that we get a free press in this country even if

:44:59.:45:05.

sometimes you get uncomfortable reports from it. Fraser Nelson?

:45:05.:45:10.

does look odd that David Cameron says Vince Cable, you look biased

:45:10.:45:16.

and therefore we take it away from you and I wonder if there is anyone

:45:16.:45:26.

in the Commons genuinely neutral on Rupert Murdoch. The Leveson Inquiry

:45:26.:45:30.

has ended up as a battle between the two least popular people in

:45:30.:45:34.

society, journalist it is and politicians, and people are

:45:34.:45:40.

wondering that it is a shame that both can't lose. It is not edifying

:45:40.:45:45.

for anybody. It is like a Victorian freak show. It is really depressing

:45:45.:45:52.

to watch, so it's embarrassing, yes. I haven't seen anything done that

:45:52.:45:58.

would cause people to lose their jobs. I don't sigh why a special

:45:58.:46:04.

adviser gets the sack and the Minister stays. Jeremy Hunt said he

:46:04.:46:13.

thought hard whether to resign and then decided he shouldn't. Special

:46:13.:46:19.

advisers play an important role. You can't say right, this man is

:46:19.:46:23.

texting Murdoch and his friends, I'm shocked, I will have to sack

:46:23.:46:30.

you. If a special adviser had to go, I would say so too should the

:46:30.:46:34.

Minister. One more point. question was about Cameron's

:46:34.:46:38.

judgment. Isn't this the second incident in 48 hours where he's

:46:38.:46:44.

shown his judgment is a little bit dubious following on from a charge

:46:44.:46:48.

of perjury in another instance? you take any of us and analyse our

:46:49.:46:52.

judgments throughout the day, we are going to make some wrong ones.

:46:52.:46:58.

Do you think Prime Minister is get it it right broadly or do you not?

:46:58.:47:02.

Everyone has his own yardstick. For me it is whether the economy

:47:02.:47:06.

recovers or not. I'm going to put them up, the good days and the bad

:47:06.:47:11.

days ining a gate. The funny thing is in this new era where they can

:47:11.:47:17.

see your text messages and other embarrassing thing you send out,

:47:17.:47:21.

not everyone could stand up to that level of scrutiny and not look a

:47:21.:47:25.

fool. Our economy should be top priority but on something like this

:47:25.:47:28.

where politicians are expected to act in a quasi-judicial manner,

:47:28.:47:35.

there are rules and guidelines as to how you should behave. You do

:47:35.:47:40.

not put somebody who had listen lobbying into a position where you

:47:40.:47:45.

said somebody else couldn't make. It is worrying. Would you take

:47:45.:47:49.

these decisions away from politicians in the future? We have

:47:49.:47:52.

to look again at quasi-judicial issues. It happens at a local and

:47:53.:47:55.

national level. There are concerns about the decisions that have been

:47:55.:47:58.

made. It is why we have an independent commission tore look

:47:58.:48:02.

into it, so we haven't got politicians judging politicians.

:48:02.:48:05.

That's why it is mind-blowing that the politician doesn't think it's a

:48:05.:48:09.

problem. A question from Graham Prebble please.

:48:09.:48:12.

Are we about to be invaded by hordes of homeless, hungry Greeks?

:48:12.:48:22.
:48:22.:48:25.

Where would we put them, and what would they do? Alan Duncan? No, I

:48:25.:48:30.

don't think we are. The best thing is to try and sort out the economy.

:48:30.:48:36.

The best way to do that is for the euro pact, which has been agreed,

:48:36.:48:40.

to work, and for discipline, financial discipline to be restored

:48:41.:48:46.

within the eurozone. I think that Greeks will be happyer in their own

:48:46.:48:50.

country once their economy has turned round. That's what I would

:48:50.:48:55.

like to see. I have to quote to you what the Home Secretary said. Work

:48:55.:49:00.

is ongoing at the Home Office to restrict European Union immigration

:49:00.:49:06.

in the event of a financial collapse. So even if you don't

:49:06.:49:10.

expect it, Theresa May clearly does expect hordes of homeless and

:49:10.:49:15.

hungry Greeks. I'm reliably informed they did not actually say.

:49:15.:49:20.

Oh, really? There has been an admission that the Home Office,

:49:20.:49:24.

particularly with the Olympics coming, they have many contingency

:49:24.:49:31.

plans. They run scenarios for all sorts of problems, that's what

:49:31.:49:36.

Governments do. But to say that is going to happen, it isn't going to

:49:36.:49:40.

happen. This is in the Daily Telegraph, so it must be true.

:49:40.:49:45.

Fraser, you work for them. European immigration wasn't restricted when

:49:45.:49:51.

Poland and other countries came into the EU. We were told it

:49:51.:49:57.

couldn't be. On a permanent basis you can't do it but you can suspend

:49:57.:50:02.

it for a temporary period. The French did it during the Libyan war.

:50:02.:50:05.

For as long as we are in the European Union we can't stop

:50:05.:50:13.

anybody from Greece or the member states from coming here. Anybody

:50:13.:50:18.

with any money in Greece is getting it out of there as fast as they can

:50:18.:50:21.

before it is transferred into the drachma and worth almost nothing.

:50:21.:50:26.

Why is it a problem to have it here and not there right now? If you are

:50:26.:50:31.

in the market for a property in the South East now, the prices are

:50:31.:50:35.

summering away from you. The third biggest buyers in London last year

:50:35.:50:41.

were Greeks. Nopts greatest problem in the world, but -- not the

:50:41.:50:48.

greatest problem in the world. The odds are if greex come here the

:50:48.:50:54.

odds are they would set up a business and do well. There are

:50:54.:50:59.

worse things that could happen than go-getting Greeks coming here

:50:59.:51:03.

because our economy is better than theirs. You missed the point as to

:51:03.:51:09.

why people would want to come here. OK, it's a great country but it is

:51:09.:51:13.

partly down to our benefits system being very open and welcoming. I

:51:13.:51:16.

think perhaps some stronger barriers there would deter the

:51:16.:51:19.

people that don't want to be entrepreneurial. This is a major

:51:19.:51:23.

problem, because the EU is threatening to force us to give

:51:23.:51:29.

full benefits to everybody who comes up here. Tell them to go to

:51:29.:51:33.

hell. Iain Duncan Smith is fight that. The Government will probably

:51:33.:51:37.

win. If we were to offer complete benefits to anybody who turns up,

:51:37.:51:41.

because they are some of the most generous in Europe, it would be a

:51:41.:51:46.

major problem. Mark Oaten? I would be really disappointed if one of

:51:46.:51:50.

the consequences that we are having in Europe and with the euro meant

:51:50.:51:55.

we started to get jingoistic and started to put the barriers up.

:51:55.:51:59.

First it is the Greeks we don't want, then the Spanish and then the

:51:59.:52:02.

Italians. What's good in Europe is we have this free movement of goods

:52:02.:52:06.

and people. I would hope that if there was an opportunity for

:52:06.:52:10.

individuals to be able to make use of, that we wouldn't put the

:52:10.:52:15.

barriers in place. We would want to have no restrictions in place, in

:52:15.:52:19.

my judgment. I think the comments that Alan made are right. The real

:52:19.:52:22.

solution to this is tackling the euro crisis not picking on the

:52:22.:52:25.

Greeks, not starting to make negative comments towards them but

:52:25.:52:29.

doing all that we can to support them. I work a lot in Brussels. I

:52:29.:52:34.

was in Brussels this morning with meetings. Everybody is concerned

:52:34.:52:37.

about the euro, particularly what's going to happen to the Greeks next.

:52:37.:52:41.

It is time to get behind and try to support them. When I heard about

:52:41.:52:45.

these measures the Home Secretary is putting in player, I assumed she

:52:45.:52:50.

was talking about the passport queues at Heathrow Airport, which

:52:50.:52:56.

frankly would restrict anybody from coming into this country anyway!

:52:56.:53:00.

APPLAUSE I think we've got a real problem that the chickens are

:53:00.:53:07.

coming home to roost. Our historically euro scepticism means

:53:07.:53:11.

that the euro and the architecture around it were being designed we

:53:11.:53:18.

are not in the design office. It is disconcerting to a lot of us that

:53:18.:53:23.

yet again we are telling continue. Nens how to sort out their problems.

:53:23.:53:30.

Not good now I suppose saying well perhaps 30, 40, 50 years ago when

:53:30.:53:36.

we should have been signing the treaties of Rome to in a sense here

:53:36.:53:42.

still continue to expound what are quite aggressive and quite sad

:53:42.:53:46.

sentiments. That is the most illogical argument I've heard in a

:53:46.:53:51.

long, long time. One of the reasons we are in a better position than we

:53:51.:53:54.

otherwise would be, because we were part of that argument and we put

:53:54.:54:00.

the argument strongly that we did not want to be part of the euro.

:54:00.:54:06.

When everyone was talking about the convergence criteria, William Hague

:54:06.:54:11.

and John Major were lampooned. What about the divergence cry tear

:54:11.:54:14.

yafrplt we were right and we won that argument and thank goodness we

:54:14.:54:24.
:54:24.:54:25.

are not part of the euro. APPLAUSE You say you don't mind a few

:54:25.:54:29.

entrepreneurial Greeks coming here, but what if they are followed by

:54:29.:54:34.

the Spanish, the Italian, the Portuguese, the Irish? Don't you

:54:34.:54:43.

think our little island might end up sinking? Victoria Coren?

:54:43.:54:53.
:54:53.:54:53.

Greeks wouldn't make any difference to me, because I spend much of my

:54:53.:54:59.

time in a casino and they are all Greek anyway. I mentioned that I

:54:59.:55:03.

come from a family of European migrants and Britain gave them

:55:03.:55:07.

shelter when they needed it and I'm certainly not going to say that now

:55:07.:55:10.

I'm British myself I would want to refuse that shelter to anyone else.

:55:10.:55:20.

I got a letter a week letter from someone, a five-page frothing rant

:55:20.:55:27.

saying I fought in the war, people like you, foreigners, spongers, I

:55:27.:55:32.

thought right, I'm not going bin it. Obviously a terrible nutter, I'm

:55:32.:55:37.

not going to get angry but I'm going to write a long and careful

:55:37.:55:42.

letter to this person, and treat him with respect. I wrote this

:55:42.:55:45.

letter explaining that my family who came here put nothing from this

:55:45.:55:50.

country and they put a lot in. They were builders and doctors, boosted

:55:50.:55:55.

the nation and never took any benefit. I said it was wonderful he

:55:55.:56:03.

fought in the war. I got a letter back from him, I'm so sorry, I'm 93

:56:03.:56:09.

and I have no idea what I wrote to you about. APPLAUSE Hello to that

:56:09.:56:13.

chap if he is watching now. He probably doesn't remember, but my

:56:13.:56:17.

position hasn't changed. I'm an optimist about people that come.

:56:18.:56:23.

We'll make room and make space just like if an extra person turns up to

:56:23.:56:28.

a party. You just stick more sausages the barbecue. Stella

:56:28.:56:33.

Creasy? It does feel like we are looking down the wrong end of the

:56:33.:56:38.

telescope. Your question is about the growing crisis on our doorstep

:56:38.:56:42.

with the eurozone. If large quantities of people from Spain,

:56:42.:56:47.

Italy and Greece are thinking about coming here it is because the

:56:47.:56:54.

eurozone is in crisis. One of the things around the visas for the

:56:54.:56:59.

Greek community is they are looking for failure. We are not going to

:56:59.:57:04.

get yoth in this country if the eurozone falls apart. We need to

:57:04.:57:08.

get our own economy back on its feet. There is no bad outcome for

:57:08.:57:13.

the eurozone that isn't a bad outcome for Britain. The people

:57:13.:57:17.

coming here would be the lice of the issues we have to deal with the

:57:17.:57:21.

this collapse happens. I hear that kind of briefing and I see the

:57:21.:57:26.

Prime Minister looking at Europe and shrugging and some people being

:57:26.:57:29.

smug about the problems of the eurozone. They don't understand how

:57:29.:57:35.

this cries lis affect us and people in my community searching for a

:57:35.:57:40.

problem. We need to be talking about what we can do to get the

:57:40.:57:44.

credit back into our economy and get businesses moving again.

:57:44.:57:47.

They're offen trading with Europe. 50% of our trade is with Europe.

:57:48.:57:55.

They need us to be serious partners to get this right, not to be on the

:57:55.:57:59.

edges planning for failure as this Government is. We have to stop,

:57:59.:58:02.

because our time is up. because our time is up.

:58:02.:58:07.

Next week we'll be in Inverness. On our panel Charles Kennedy and the

:58:07.:58:11.

actor Alan Coming and others. The following week we'll be in

:58:11.:58:16.

Stockton-on-Tees. If you want to come to either, talk

:58:16.:58:26.
:58:26.:58:27.

to our panel and argue with them, visit our website.

:58:27.:58:32.

I thank our panel for coming in, Nicole included. I got it in the

:58:32.:58:39.

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