Browse content similar to 31/05/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, we near the Temple Speech Room at Rugby School, in Rugby. | :00:15. | :00:23. | |
Welcome to Question Time. On our panel here, the | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
international development minister, Alan Duncan. | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
The shadow Home Office minister, Stella Creasy. The former Liberal | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
Democrats home affairs spokesman, Mark Oaten, who has written a book | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
about how coalitions don't work. The editor of the Spectator and | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
columnist for the Daily Telegraph, Fraser Nelson and the broadcaster | :00:43. | :00:53. | |
:00:53. | :00:57. | ||
Victoria Coren. APPLAUSE | :00:57. | :01:06. | |
Thank you very much. Michael Thomas has a question. After pasty, | :01:06. | :01:13. | |
caravan and charity tax U-turns, is the Chancellor competent? | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
Fraser Nelson? I think there is certainly a pattern emerging. We're | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
on U-turn number 35, by my counts. The pattern seems to be, act first, | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
think later, reverse it if it is a problem. It is a bit worrying. It's | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
a problem for the Conservatives. People can forgive the Tories for | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
being heartless. You bring a Tory Government in to make cuts. To be | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
heartless and hopeless is a fatal combination. I mean, individually | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
these things are not a problem - the caravan tax, pasty tax - but | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
they have a cumulative effect which make you worry if the Government | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
knows what is going on. I think the problem also is that if you get a | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
reputation for U-turning, then it invites confrontation. Sooner or | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
later, there'll be probably a confrontation with the trade unions | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
in a way there has not been so far. The unions will look at this | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
Government and will think, if he can't stand up to Greg the Baker, | :02:14. | :02:24. | |
:02:24. | :02:27. | ||
how will he stand up to the -- Len McClusky. Everybody pushes them, a | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
Baker or a celebrity and the Government folds. So it looks weak, | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
incompetent and not a good look at -- all. | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
APPLAUSE The question was specifically about | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
George Osborne rather than the Government - is he competent? | :02:49. | :02:57. | |
would like to think so. I am not writing off George Osborne yet. | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
He's had a catastrophic Budget. Maybe he should not have taken that | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
week holiday to see Barack Obama the week before the Budget. This | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
one is still exploding even now. It does make you wonder how much | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
effort is put into the growth strategy if you see how little he | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
has thought about smaller things. Looking at the results, we are not | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
seeing much economic recovery now. I am worrying if we'll get a | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
recovery by the next election. That is what I will judge George Osborne | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
on, not the caravan, not the pasties but whether we get some | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
growth. Journalism is about sensation and good, strong views. | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
Whenever a politician changes his mind, it's not oh, good he has | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
changed his mind because he has listen to what he's said, it is | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
massive U-turn, Government in chaos. That is the business you're in. | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
We're in the business, the democracy business of saying, this | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
is what we'll do. When you put things out to | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
consultation it is for that purpose and why is it therefore that when | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
we respond, having listened to the arguments and change our mind, you | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
say what you have just said. I think George Osborne is | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
competent.Ly tell you why: We are face -- I will tell you high: We | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
are facing some of the biggest economic changes in my lifetime. We | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
are looking around the world at countries which falling to bits, | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
facing civil strife in the streets. We are not in that position because | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
this coalition Government has got to grips with some of the biggest | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
economic challenges we'll ever see in our lifetime. By staying out of | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
the single currency 20 years ago, fortunately we are able to | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
respond.... You cannot give George Osborne the credit for that. He was | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
not even out of school. He was, actually. On the point raised, are | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
you suggesting all budget measures are out for consultation - it is an | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
idea and then we sit around and say, we like this bit, we don't like | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
that bit? Of course not. Some things are | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
decided on the day. That is why at the end of the Budget speech | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
Parliament agrees to change certain tax levels and things like that. | :05:12. | :05:20. | |
The key thing - and you cannot accuse us of an U-turn on this - is | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
getting finances back in order is back on course. That is why we've | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
got... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE We have such low interest rates. If we were | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
to do what Ed Balls was saying, to pay off a mortgage with a mortgage, | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
we would have higher interest rates. Everyone in this room, unless they | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
had large cash savings would be suffering. I will tell you high | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
this matters. If I were the Chancellor, the thing that would | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
exercise me the most is that businesses and companies in this | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
country are sitting on �750 billion worth of cash and deposits. They | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
are sitting on it as rainy Damonny, because they have no confidence at | :06:02. | :06:10. | |
-- rainy Damonny, because they have no confidence at all. They are not | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
making investments. That is the general point. What about the U- | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
turns announced? When you look at a Chancellor who cannot decide | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
whether he likes pasties, hot, cold or gently warmed, you can | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
understand why they are not confident about our Government and | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
the choices they are making. What I see in the 35, and possibly rising | :06:30. | :06:39. | |
U-turns, is somebody incoherent about caravans and pasties, is | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
wrong about where our economy is going and the kind of things we | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
need to do to generate jobs in this country, so we are not spending | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
less on welfare, but getting taxes back on because people are in work. | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
That is why people are so worried and frightened about what he's | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
doing. APPLAUSE | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
Years ago, even the slightest Budget leak was a major resignation | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
issue. Now the whole thing is trailed in public weeks before. | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
This is a good thing or a bad thing? | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
I think it has been a good result for the pasty tax. If it was not | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
devised we would not have the joy of seeing the Labour high command | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
being in Gregs pretending they had not been in one before. It is | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
astonishing footage. You said we should respect the fact he changed | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
his mind. We have to factor in he thought of it in the first place. | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
This is a Government of people. Here is this Tory high command, | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
generally the key figures of massive personal wealth. | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
Embarrassing pictures of them floating around in black tie. | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
Winston Churchill was posh. They know that is the problem they have. | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
And then they have this idea, they are going to tax pasties and | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
caravans. They are going to identify things that the absolutely | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
poorest people in the country enjoy and hammer them. Now, that was not | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
a very clever idea in the first place. The fact he thinks better of | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
it - OK, well, but he should not have thought of it to begin with. I | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
will not say that George Osborne is incompetent - that would be | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
disrespectful. He is the Chancellor. I would say, if I was going on | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
holiday and needed someone to look after my flat and feed the cat, I | :08:31. | :08:41. | |
:08:41. | :08:43. | ||
would not ask George Osborne. Mark Oaten? | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
To answer the question directly, no, I don't think he is incompetent. To | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
some extent, looking back on politics over the past 20 years we | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
go through a cycle of a politician says something, there's a big fuss, | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
they should change it and then they do change it and then there is a | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
big fuss because it is a U-turn. We've all done it. The danger is | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
when a politician really should change something, because it is | :09:09. | :09:17. | |
wrong, they don't, because they are skoir scared about the big fuss | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
there'll be over a U-turn. However, the question has to be asked, was, | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
what I would call a common sense factor put into these measures? Was | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
somebody lying in bed in the morning and thinking? If they | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
thought, can you really introduce a tax on whether it is hot, cold, | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
semi hot or cold, can you start to take on the charitable sector in | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
this country? If somebody laid in the bed longer in the morning and | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
put the common sense factor into this then they would not have | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
introduce these measures. Have a lie-in and put the common sense in, | :09:54. | :10:03. | |
in the future. APPLAUSE I think the way it is | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
going, George Osborne will get the sack. I would like to see if he | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
could do a U-turn on student loans before he loses his job! You think | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
Osborne is going? I think the minister will go. We have to be a | :10:17. | :10:26. | |
U-turn on student fees as soon as Politics is basically a PR exercise, | :10:27. | :10:28. | |
rather than people going fundamentally with what they | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
believe and seeking to leave, as opposed to manage opinion: You mean | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
they are not getting on with the job? | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
It is managing and therefore when there is a kickback, if you believe | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
that, let's stick with it. If you think it will be good for the | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
country, stick with it. There have been measures in the past which | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
have been unpopular, but time has turned out it has been the right | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
thing to do. So stick with that. you want to join the Twitter | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
debate: If you want to join in the debate | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
yourself physically, we'll be in Inverness next week. Details of how | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
to join that programme are on the screen. | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
A question now from Lias Eaton. is right for doctors to strike over | :11:21. | :11:31. | |
:11:31. | :11:34. | ||
a pension that most of us can only I feel very torn by this issue. I | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
have already had a number of people in my constituency come to me and | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
say they are worried about what will happen on the date that the | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
doctors have said they want to go on strike. I have talked to doctors | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
and nurses who feel pushed to the limit by what this Government has | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
done to the NHS. In answer to your question, no, if I am honest, I | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
don't think it is the right thing to do at this point in time. All of | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
us need to put pressure on the Government to take their | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
responsibility. The doctors are saying, we want to negotiate and we | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
cannot even get the Secretary of State around the table. We have | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
seen other secretaries of state being willing to get around the | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
table and talk to unions about difficult changes, which everybody | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
recognises will need to happen. Why Mr Lansley thinks it is beneath him | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
to talk to doctors, so avoid these situations in the first place, is | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
beneath me? -- is beyond me. It is a pension | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
most can only dream of? It is something which will have to change. | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
We know there are difficult choices. One thing is the Hutton Report. We | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
started the Hutton Report. Jon Hutton is saying the Government is | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
going about this the wrong way. The difficult changes we made in | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
Government we did in partnership with the unions. We got there and | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
we made difficult changes. This Government is going for | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
confrontation first and conversation later. You say it is a | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
pension most people can only dream of - I understand what you are | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
saying - but these doctors are not just lucked into this pension. | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
Doctors train for seven years. They start their working lives later | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
than any professional. They have to work 40 years and they spend that | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
time, most of them, covered in blood, seeing terrible things, | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
watching people die. It is a tough life that demands massive | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
concentration, long, long hours, very hard work. They have not just | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
been found in the street and handed this pension. Also, a doctor's | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
salary is very sharp and steep. They start very low, so being told | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
that instead of getting their final salary they will get an average, | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
that will hurt them a lot more than I would comparable professionals | :13:45. | :13:52. | |
because of how jaged it is. They will have a sympathy problem. I | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
don't think as people say - I think most people will be disappointed | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
with their GP, they feel short changed. I will not be tricked into | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
that argument, all these doctors, they are all riched, what are they | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
complaining about? It is dangerous to start this idea of any public | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
sector workers being greedy and demanding. I don't think people are | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
as stupid as we are being led to think. I don't think people are | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
cruel. I think the fact lots of us are struggling doesn't mean we'll | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
not feeling sorry for someone having their pension cut. It is not | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
the doctors' fault there is a financial crisis. It is not their | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
fault that all Governments of recent years failed to address the | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
demographic problem, there would be a problem with pensions for | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
everyone. We should not be misled into thinking there is no money for | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
these public sector workers when there was money to be pumped into | :14:50. | :15:00. | |
:15:00. | :15:05. | ||
the banks and paid to people as Surely this argument is saying that | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
the money that is going to their pensions being taken out of other | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
services elsewhere, surely we could free up this money by getting rid | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
of the red tape and managers in the NHS and rewarding doctors for | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
something they do really well and making it easier for them to do it | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
byry moving the bureaucracy around their day-to-day lives. Do you | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
think the strike is right? that's what's needed to improve the | :15:31. | :15:40. | |
service then for a short time yes. The woman behind you? I don't agree | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
with Victoria. Anyone entering the profession of doctor, their first | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
objective should be altruism and the second is care. They are being | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
paid a lot more than the average nurses or whoever they are. They've | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
been asked... They've trained seven years to get this job. It is not | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
about how much they are paid but how much money there is. The | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
problem about missing money is people who are not doctors, and | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
don't let anyone trick you into being angry with doctors because | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
the country can't afford to pay them. But this is against the | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
Hippocratic oath. Non-emergency services only. It doesn't matter to | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
the general public to. The general public it instils fear to. The | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
elderly it instils fear. I think it is sacrificing the Hippocratic oath | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
to the altar of greed. I'm sorry, I do not agree with the strike. | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
APPLAUSE The woman on that side. There are two points I want to make. | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
Firstly, there is no harming the Hippocratic oath. They are going to | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
treat emergencies. If someone turns up at the doctor's dying, they are | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
going to get treated. And secondly, with student fees going up, if you | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
are at uni five years paying 9 grand a year, that's 40 grand on | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
tuition, not including just living, including the uniform you have to | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
pay for yourself, doctors have to buy their own scrubs and books. | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
Doctors are putting a lot of their own money into going into that | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
profession in the first place and they should have a decent amount of | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
financial reward and be able to live comfortably when they reach | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
old age. APPLAUSE Mark Oaten? question was clear: should they | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
strike? The answer is no, I don't think they should strike. I would | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
have some sympathy with the medical profession if it was striking over | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
a measure where they felt that the measure was going to harm patient | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
care. Then I would have some sympathy, but this is purely about | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
self interest and their pension, and that is why I don't think it is | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
acceptable. Will it put a lot of patients, whether they are | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
emergency or not, give them misery, they turn up for the operation and | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
it is cancelled or delayed. I'm slightly queuesed that only half of | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
the doctors voted on this issue in the ballot. So if people really | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
cared that strongly about it, why did only half vote? The big issue | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
is there's a pensions time bomb taking place. We are all having to | :18:24. | :18:31. | |
take touch choices on this and the doctors should be part of that. | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
APPLAUSE If what this Government does means that the entirety of the | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
public pension pot changes because of the changes they make, we will | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
all be worse off. I don't think the GPs are going to pull out. As far | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
as the doctors breaking the Hippocratic oath, what other choice | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
do they have? This Government has shown that any negotiations they | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
have with unions they end up with threats to strike. The PR machine | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
of the Conservative Government needs a revamp. Alan Duncan, do you | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
want to answer that? First of all, this is not about the reform of the | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
health service, but pension. Mark is right, we have a public sector | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
pensions time bomb. What this issue is about is trying to get a fair | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
deal for doctors m of whom are earning over �100,000 and under | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
their current contributions can get pension after they've retired in | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
excess of �55,000 or �60,000. Some of them will get a pension that the | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
level for perhaps 25 years. At the moment they are paying a | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
contribution which in no way reflects the cost of that pension. | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
If they were in the private sector they would have had to save �1 | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
million or more to finance that pension. What we are asking the | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
doctors to do, which is no more than we are asking people in the | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
country to do, and if you are in the private sector you might not | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
have a pension, is to increase their contribution. We are asking | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
the doctors, because they are living longer and they have what at | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
the moment is a very well-resourced pension package to contribute more | :20:09. | :20:15. | |
towards the cost of that package. How can you have allowed it end | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
up... APPLAUSE How can you have allowed it to end up in a position | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
where the doctors take in huge advertisements in the paper saying | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
they've been forced to take industrial action because you are | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
not listening to them? I don't accept that argument. Andrew | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
Lansley, his job in opposition and now in Government for seven years, | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
sits down regularly with them. And elsewhere in the public sector | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
today we have reached agreement about what will be life-time | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
measured benefits for pensions. This is not. This is a final salary | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
pension with contribution. So asking the doctors to contribute a | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
higher percentage of their monthly salary to help contribute and pay | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
for that pension is, in my view, perfectly fair. I think they are | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
wrong to go on strike. I think they've been whipped up a bit by | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
some people in the profession. It is unfair and unreasonable for them | :21:08. | :21:15. | |
to do what they are doing. I think that some of the comments we've | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
heard here more accurately understand what's going on. The nan | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
the checked shirt. Tinge rhetoric of the Government is all wrong. It | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
seems to be creating this divide between the public sector and | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
private sector. That's making goegs difficult. I think to your point as | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
-- that's making negotiation difficult. It does not make any | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
sense to any of us who are desperately worried about patient | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
care, and the doctors are worried about patient care, that Government | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
will not get round the table and negotiate with then. Why not say | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
you will negotiate with doctors to avert this strike? It is about | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
their pension, not patient care. The reason we are in this | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
difficulty is that Governments are prone to promise what they can't | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
deliver in order to buy votes, and in the end someone has to say I'm | :22:07. | :22:14. | |
sorry, we can't honour that, you will have to pay more, and tour | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
blame. Fraser Nelson? Over the last 15 years we've seen the elimination | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
of private sector pensions. Hardly anyone at work can look forward to | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
the kind of pension they could woo have got 20 years. There's a lot of | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
pain being suffered, 1 million jobs in the private sector. In the | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
public sector manages of workers are getting a pay freeze. They are | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
not going on strike. It seems odd that doctors who are getting six- | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
figure salaries, and the last Labour Government negotiated their | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
contract, they did well out of that. My heart doesn't bleed for them. I | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
think they are way down the public sympathy list. Millions of public | :22:57. | :23:04. | |
sector workers are suffering just as bad. Doctors the work hard, but | :23:04. | :23:12. | |
so do nurses. They are up to their arms in... APPLAUSE We don't see | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
nurses going on strike. I think people with greater cause to go on | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
strike but they aren't. I to take one or two points from the audience. | :23:23. | :23:30. | |
Madam in the front row. I think the doctors at the moment, | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
in their, they are intelligent people, they haven't been on strike | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
for 40 years, so you have to bear that in mind that they've thought | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
about this. To pick on the doctors, you've got teachers coming up soon | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
and they are maybe going on strike action. Again, intelligent people. | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
They want to do the best for their students. They've thought about | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
this and maybe they've reached their limit. And you Sir? I think | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
this pensions issue is the tip of an enormous iceberg and this is | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
just the start. I'm more concerned about what signalled, what signal | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
this sends from doctors to all the sectors of the public sector unions, | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
nurses and everyone who has to face this problem over the coming years. | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
OK. A last point, you Sir. We've been talking about doctors and | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
someone mentioned teachers. If I were to pay in for 40 years an 8% | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
contribution I would have funded three years of my salary. If people | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
are going to retire and draw a pension for 20 years it doesn't | :24:37. | :24:46. | |
take a genius to work out that it is unaffordable. APPLAUSE | :24:46. | :24:54. | |
We'll go on. Simon McAusland please. Would the UK be justified in | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
banning Syrian delegation members with connections to the Bashar al- | :24:58. | :25:05. | |
Assad regime from the London 2012 Olympics? I suppose General Juma, | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
the President of the Olympic committee. Mark Oaten, what do you | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
think? To be honest that's a pretty small gesture to make, given what's | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
taking place. If that is the only response we can have to the events | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
in Syria, that's a pretty poor show. The reality is that the solution to | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
Syria is not going to be about taking those kinds of gestures. It | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
has to be about trying to get backbone into the United Nations | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
and the measures being put through there. When I look at what's | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
happening in Syria, two things trouble me. The first is that the | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
UN is powerless. Kofi Annan is trying to get this measure in place. | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
It is being ignored that. Said a lot about the power of the United | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
Nations. The second issue is just how influential the Russians are in | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
this and the destiny of Syria is dependent on Russia. That's why it | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
was right that William Hague did all he could to try to tackle the | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
issue with the Russianings recently. It is going be that -- with the | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
Russians when when he met them recently. Whether there is the | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
stomach for military intervention is questionable. While what we see | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
is horrendous I'm not sure the British public would necessarily | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
support military intervention. The solution will have to be much | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
bigger than banning officials from turning up at the Olympics. | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
APPLAUSE I agree with your point that you | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
have to ban, you can't just ban officials, but does it apply to | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
other countries who've abused human rights? Does it only apply to Syria | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
or will you have to impose it on other countries as well? | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
coalition Government have said they will have a power, if you like, to | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
refuse visas for individuals connected with human rights abuses. | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
That is a good thing and it sends the right message, but it is a | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
small gesture to be making. Tinge Olympic committee have shown how | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
little they care about human rights abuses. Look at Saudi Arabia. This | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
week they are not sending a single woman to the Olympics. The Olympic | :27:11. | :27:19. | |
committee have done absolutely nothing. Fraser Nelson? | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
I think the banning of the del gay, I'm not sure we have the powers to | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
do that -- the bang of the del gay, I'm not sure we have the powers to | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
do that. Fit was within our power it's the least we can do. The | :27:35. | :27:43. | |
terrifying thing is we can see this blood-bath which is ongoing. In the | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
last year 7,000 people have been killed by the Bashar al-Assad | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
regime and we are talking about whether to ban people coming to | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
watch sports. It does seem incredibly frustrating but I can't | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
see what more we can do. There are calls in America right now for | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
military action to say we should go in there as we did in other | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
countries and impose a no-fly zone or arm the rebels. I can't see why | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
we believe the rebels would be that much better than the Bashar al- | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
Assad regime. It is complicated and we should resist the thought to | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
think that it would make things better. Kite lead to greater | :28:25. | :28:32. | |
carnage and chaos. I really don't see this many more options thon the | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
Olympics to us. What about sanctions? Sure. There are so many | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
things we could do diplomatically but I'm not convinced we should | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
succumb to this reaction Britain we tend to shape the world rather than | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
be shaped be it. We are the country who helps people being oppressed. | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
But this is a tinder-box of a nation which I think could be made | :28:57. | :29:07. | |
:29:07. | :29:11. | ||
Can you clarify the point - can the Home Secretary ban anybody she | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
chooses, regardless of whether they are taking part in the Olympic | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
Games? I am not sure what the legal position would be, compared to the | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
agreement you have to sign when you host the Olympics. I don't want to | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
myself lead you on this. -- miss lead you on this. | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
The Prime Minister has not signed the agreement. I am not sure. The | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
key point is the Syrian point. I agree with Mark and Fraser. We are | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
looking at the most disgusting situation in Syria. We are | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
frustrated at the sense of powerlessness to deal with it. We | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
can only do what is legal and that means UN Resolutions. William Hague | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
and the Prime Minister have been driving that agenda in the UN as | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
hard as they can. There are obstacles, in this case Russia, on | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
which Hillary Clinton has today said something. The number of | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
people dead in Syria is estimated between 10,000-15,000. You are | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
looking at the most complicated, intertwined sectarian conflict in | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
the country. The UN is key. At the moment, in the department in which | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
I am a minister, the department is key to the humanitarian attempts, | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
which we are contributing to. Even they are very difficult to put into | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
practise. How would things differ the Russians came on side and in | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
agreement with the rest of the UN? You are still not talking about | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
arming the rebels or providing safe areas, or no-fly zones? What is it | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
the Russians would bring that they are not at the moment? It is so | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
complicated that military action could cause more of a trouble than | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
it addresses. What Russian support could do is put effective pressure | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
on the regime in a way that the UN, without Russia, cannot. Pressure on | :31:07. | :31:13. | |
Assad and his cronies could make a massive difference from only the | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
Russians would come on board. UN are key to solving the Syrian | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
crisis, but they are toothless tigers. Everybody ignores what they | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
say. They have meetings, they come up with strongly-worded | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
declarations and everybody ignores them. This conflict could escalate. | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
If you have Qatar and Saudi Arabia, allegedly supplying arms to the | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
opposition. You have Iran allegedly supplying arms to the regime. If we | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
get involved in military action that region will explode. What | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
would you like to see happen? think we have to strengthen the UN. | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
Russia has got to come on board with them and then the peace | :31:56. | :32:03. | |
process has to be started, and Kofi Annan's policies have got to be | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
adhered to. The UN can only be as strong as it is allowed and | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
authorised to be by member-states. You have to look at the member- | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
states. If we had more monitors, it may be a step in reducing the | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
atrocities. There is a limit to what they can do. | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
My question is for Mr Duncan - what sanctions is the Government | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
imposing on countries such as Syria with human rights abuses, with the | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
forthcoming arm treaty, such as international development aid? | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
don't have a development programme in Syria, and in due course, come | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
July in the negotiations, we hope there'll be an international arms | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
trade treaty. At the moment you could look at financial sanctions, | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
targeted at individuals and we have to look at the International | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
Criminal Court. We have to make them fearful of the future and make | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
them now they cannot get away with what they are doing. I represent an | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
area in north-east London. The idea that anybody was involved in what | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
we saw in Houla - a genocide. We saw women and children tortured in | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
their homes, it makes me feel sick to my stomach. I hope the British | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
delegation is part of the, the Olympic committee is making strong | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
reputations on it. I believe military intervention is probably | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
not ideal, not least because there is not support in the comounty of | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
Syria itself. The Syrian -- community of Syria itself. The | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
Syrian partners are divided on this point. Just because we cannot do | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
that does not mean we cannot do something about the situation in | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
Syria. Where I take exception is we can be more creative. The gentleman | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
talked about sanctions, there is already an oil embargo with Syria | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
at the moment. It covers the European nations. How much stronger | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
would it be if it covered other countries importing oil to Syria. | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
There are things we can do to cut off the Assad regime. We have to | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
see naming of the people involved in this bloodbath that is taking | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
place in Syria, not just at the top, but the generals on the ground, | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
people ordering the massacres we are seeing, so they know they will | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
face the full floor of the International Criminal Courts. We | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
must not forget the humanitarian issues. There are difficult | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
conversations to be had with their neighbours. We can be part of the | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
conversations. Fraser is right, we cannot solve any of these issues on | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
our own, but we can be part of a community working together to | :34:49. | :34:59. | |
:34:59. | :35:00. | ||
address those issues. APPLAUSE Victoria Coren? All this talk of | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
generally what should be done about Syria, everybody said sitcomly | :35:05. | :35:13. | |
kaited. I hate it. -- -- say it is complicated. I hate it. The | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
question about the Olympic is not complicated. Should they come here? | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
No, they are disgusting. You say you are worried if you cannot ban | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
them. I'll do it. Give me a water cannon, I'll go to the airport! | :35:29. | :35:37. | |
A question from Jennifer Smith. the continual revelations from the | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
Leveson Inquiry put into doubt the personal judgment of David Cameron? | :35:44. | :35:51. | |
Presumably in Jeremy Hunt handling the affair with BSkyB and Murdoch, | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
yes? The Leveson Inquiry. Why do you say that - soap opera. I missed | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
two episodes, now I have no idea what is going on. It is like a | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
full-time job. Every day. They are on Twitter, this one has gone, this | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
one has gone. I've lost the plot. Tell me if I am wrong. I understand | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
what came out today is Jeremy Hunt, before it was announced, well | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
stopped before then, but before there was an outside for the bid | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
for BSkyB, it turned out he sent a text to James Murdoch saying, | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
"We've done it. I love you. Are we going to mum or dad's for Christmas | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
this year?" David Cameron said, it is fine. It has my full support, no | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
problem with him staying in the job. Is that what was said today? | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
will do. Yes, well I think that is hilarious. | :36:42. | :36:52. | |
:36:52. | :36:54. | ||
What I find.... Said great and congrat on -- congrats on Brussels. | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
That is what we want between the press baron and the Government. It | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
proves why that relationship is too close. I was talking to someone | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
about it on the train, is should he be fired? I said, yes, of course he | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
should, this is ridiculous. This closeness is too corrupt. Of course | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
he should be fired. Had I ever met Jeremy Hunt, no doubt I would say, | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
oh, he seems like a nice chap, he's a nice guy, seems well, he should | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
not be fired. That is why journalists and politicians should | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
not mix that closely. Each needs to keep a cold, clear eye on the other. | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
It is not happening and there is something very wrong. | :37:34. | :37:43. | |
APPLAUSE Stella Creasy? I think the | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
questioner is right to say, what does this tell us about the | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
minister? What we have seen, it was not just that he was sending a | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
number of text messages, it is that Jeremy Hunt came to Parliament and | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
told us none of this was happening. It is clear from the evidence we | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
have seen at the Leveson Inquiry that he misled Parliament. He told | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
us he had no contact with this gentleman. Now we have seen text | :38:10. | :38:19. | |
messages about mama and papa. It is like the Renault Clio adverts. | :38:19. | :38:29. | |
:38:29. | :38:30. | ||
did they go? I cannot believe I am saying this on TV, but "Papa?" | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
But, my point is there was clearly a cosy relationship. We were sure | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
Jeremy Hunt was making a decision without reference to the influence | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
of News International. Crucially David Cameron said to us, well, if | :38:44. | :38:51. | |
it comes out in the course of the Leveson Inquiry that he has misled | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
Parliament or there is information he has broken the Ministerial | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
Code,ly refer it. That came out today. David Cameron said, I will | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
not refer it, nothing to see here. There has been a transgression in | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
the Ministerial Code. It is very worrying and concerning that a | :39:06. | :39:16. | |
:39:16. | :39:18. | ||
Prime Minister seems so blas say about it. Nicol - thank you! | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
I don't think it reflects badly on David Cameron or Jeremy Hunt. Let | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
me tell you something - judges have opinions. When they are sitting in | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
court they will probably know the barristers in front of them, might | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
be members of the same club. What matters is how does the judge | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
behave when sitting in his judicial capacity? Properly and according to | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
the law? Let me finish... Why was Vince | :39:46. | :39:53. | |
Cable sacked for having the same... APPLAUSE | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
Because, he had been taped saying that he was declaring war. So he | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
was tape and the other was text. There's no difference. There is a | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
massive difference. He said he had declared war on the Murdoch empire | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
and, basically wanted to do down them at all costs. Jeremy Hunt | :40:14. | :40:22. | |
never said that. He was made in charge of... He was put in charge | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
of the bid. As soon as he was put in charge of the bid, following | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
legal advice and from his officials and referring to Ofcom, doing | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
things which were not the things that the Murdoch empire would have | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
liked, behaved meticulously. That is what was clear from the witness | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
before the Leveson Inquiry today. All this talk about texts, they all | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
happened before. In the same way as judges set aside their personal | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
opinions and look at the facts, that is exactly what Jeremy Hunt | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
did once he was entrusted with ministerial responsibility. He said | :40:57. | :41:05. | |
to Cameron in a memo - I think it would be totally wrong to cave into | :41:05. | :41:13. | |
the anti- coalition case. He was in favour of the bid. | :41:13. | :41:23. | |
:41:23. | :41:23. | ||
He's not a lawyer, he a politician, I is a -- which is a false analogy. | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
It is not being a judge. That is what sectors of state have to do on | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
a number of issues. The question is whether the judgment was right. | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
judge is not passing judgment on the barrister. What if the judge | :41:39. | :41:46. | |
was out with a man accused of theft - would that be OK? He consulted | :41:46. | :41:53. | |
them. Even when I am making small decisions as a minister we act on | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
advice. We don't just sit there and say, I am a politician, I believe | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
that, do that. We look at options presented to us by civil servants | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
it is meticulously so in this bid. Why didn't Jeremy Hunt tell | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
Parliament about it? He told Parliament none of this had | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
happened. What we are seeing is it did. | :42:17. | :42:25. | |
He said no contact between him and Fred Michel. Ministers should not | :42:25. | :42:33. | |
misled Parliament - yes or no? He did not miss lead Parliament. | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
Misleading Parliament is a very serious offence. I have are reread | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
Jeremy Hunt's answers. He said he had zero contact with Fred Michel. | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
I thought the Prime Minister would make good on his word. He said if | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
new evidence arose he would refer it to the independent commissioner. | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
He said today that he is not going to do that. | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
Mark Oaten? I am a core participant in Leveson. I have been following | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
it with interest. Here is the thing I don't get, it answers the point | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
about the judgment, given the vacancy occurred because the Prime | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
Minister had to take a view that Vince Cable was not cable of doing | :43:17. | :43:24. | |
this, you -- capable of doing this. You would have thought the first | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
question the Prime Minister would ask, having got rid of somebody | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
whose judgment was clouded, would check the next person who did it | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
would not make similar statements. In the full knowledge of the | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
statements that had been made. point is that the sensible thing to | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
have done, at the point when Vince Cable made the comments, is for the | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
Prime Minister to turn around and say, I don't think any politician | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
is capable of taking this decision, because they will all have strong | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
views on the media and Murdoch and maybe we need to take these kind of | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
decisions away from politicians and give them to people who genuinely | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
are independent, without any bag age. All politicians come with | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
baggage, particularly when contexted to newspapers. I can tell | :44:10. | :44:19. | |
you that from experience. Regarding how close they are to the | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
media, don't you have sympathy with politicians, because they are under | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
so much influence. News Corp, (Inaudible) they barely have a | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
choice to support BSkyB or not. When I was a politician you are | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
constantly involved with journalists. They invite you to | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
lunch, you have drinks, and you hope you get better coverage. It | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
gets very cosy and what we've seen from Leveson is just how cosy it | :44:52. | :44:59. | |
was getting. I love that we get a free press in this country even if | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
sometimes you get uncomfortable reports from it. Fraser Nelson? | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
does look odd that David Cameron says Vince Cable, you look biased | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
and therefore we take it away from you and I wonder if there is anyone | :45:16. | :45:26. | |
in the Commons genuinely neutral on Rupert Murdoch. The Leveson Inquiry | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
has ended up as a battle between the two least popular people in | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
society, journalist it is and politicians, and people are | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
wondering that it is a shame that both can't lose. It is not edifying | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
for anybody. It is like a Victorian freak show. It is really depressing | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
to watch, so it's embarrassing, yes. I haven't seen anything done that | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
would cause people to lose their jobs. I don't sigh why a special | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
adviser gets the sack and the Minister stays. Jeremy Hunt said he | :46:04. | :46:13. | |
thought hard whether to resign and then decided he shouldn't. Special | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
advisers play an important role. You can't say right, this man is | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
texting Murdoch and his friends, I'm shocked, I will have to sack | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
you. If a special adviser had to go, I would say so too should the | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
Minister. One more point. question was about Cameron's | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
judgment. Isn't this the second incident in 48 hours where he's | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
shown his judgment is a little bit dubious following on from a charge | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
of perjury in another instance? you take any of us and analyse our | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
judgments throughout the day, we are going to make some wrong ones. | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
Do you think Prime Minister is get it it right broadly or do you not? | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
Everyone has his own yardstick. For me it is whether the economy | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
recovers or not. I'm going to put them up, the good days and the bad | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
days ining a gate. The funny thing is in this new era where they can | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
see your text messages and other embarrassing thing you send out, | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
not everyone could stand up to that level of scrutiny and not look a | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
fool. Our economy should be top priority but on something like this | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
where politicians are expected to act in a quasi-judicial manner, | :47:28. | :47:35. | |
there are rules and guidelines as to how you should behave. You do | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
not put somebody who had listen lobbying into a position where you | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
said somebody else couldn't make. It is worrying. Would you take | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
these decisions away from politicians in the future? We have | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
to look again at quasi-judicial issues. It happens at a local and | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
national level. There are concerns about the decisions that have been | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
made. It is why we have an independent commission tore look | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
into it, so we haven't got politicians judging politicians. | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
That's why it is mind-blowing that the politician doesn't think it's a | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
problem. A question from Graham Prebble please. | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
Are we about to be invaded by hordes of homeless, hungry Greeks? | :48:12. | :48:22. | |
:48:22. | :48:25. | ||
Where would we put them, and what would they do? Alan Duncan? No, I | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
don't think we are. The best thing is to try and sort out the economy. | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
The best way to do that is for the euro pact, which has been agreed, | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
to work, and for discipline, financial discipline to be restored | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
within the eurozone. I think that Greeks will be happyer in their own | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
country once their economy has turned round. That's what I would | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
like to see. I have to quote to you what the Home Secretary said. Work | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
is ongoing at the Home Office to restrict European Union immigration | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
in the event of a financial collapse. So even if you don't | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
expect it, Theresa May clearly does expect hordes of homeless and | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
hungry Greeks. I'm reliably informed they did not actually say. | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
Oh, really? There has been an admission that the Home Office, | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
particularly with the Olympics coming, they have many contingency | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
plans. They run scenarios for all sorts of problems, that's what | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
Governments do. But to say that is going to happen, it isn't going to | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
happen. This is in the Daily Telegraph, so it must be true. | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
Fraser, you work for them. European immigration wasn't restricted when | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
Poland and other countries came into the EU. We were told it | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
couldn't be. On a permanent basis you can't do it but you can suspend | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
it for a temporary period. The French did it during the Libyan war. | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
For as long as we are in the European Union we can't stop | :50:05. | :50:13. | |
anybody from Greece or the member states from coming here. Anybody | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
with any money in Greece is getting it out of there as fast as they can | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
before it is transferred into the drachma and worth almost nothing. | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
Why is it a problem to have it here and not there right now? If you are | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
in the market for a property in the South East now, the prices are | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
summering away from you. The third biggest buyers in London last year | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
were Greeks. Nopts greatest problem in the world, but -- not the | :50:41. | :50:48. | |
greatest problem in the world. The odds are if greex come here the | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
odds are they would set up a business and do well. There are | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
worse things that could happen than go-getting Greeks coming here | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
because our economy is better than theirs. You missed the point as to | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
why people would want to come here. OK, it's a great country but it is | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
partly down to our benefits system being very open and welcoming. I | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
think perhaps some stronger barriers there would deter the | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
people that don't want to be entrepreneurial. This is a major | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
problem, because the EU is threatening to force us to give | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
full benefits to everybody who comes up here. Tell them to go to | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
hell. Iain Duncan Smith is fight that. The Government will probably | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
win. If we were to offer complete benefits to anybody who turns up, | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
because they are some of the most generous in Europe, it would be a | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
major problem. Mark Oaten? I would be really disappointed if one of | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
the consequences that we are having in Europe and with the euro meant | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
we started to get jingoistic and started to put the barriers up. | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
First it is the Greeks we don't want, then the Spanish and then the | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
Italians. What's good in Europe is we have this free movement of goods | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
and people. I would hope that if there was an opportunity for | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
individuals to be able to make use of, that we wouldn't put the | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
barriers in place. We would want to have no restrictions in place, in | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
my judgment. I think the comments that Alan made are right. The real | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
solution to this is tackling the euro crisis not picking on the | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
Greeks, not starting to make negative comments towards them but | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
doing all that we can to support them. I work a lot in Brussels. I | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
was in Brussels this morning with meetings. Everybody is concerned | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
about the euro, particularly what's going to happen to the Greeks next. | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
It is time to get behind and try to support them. When I heard about | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
these measures the Home Secretary is putting in player, I assumed she | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
was talking about the passport queues at Heathrow Airport, which | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
frankly would restrict anybody from coming into this country anyway! | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
APPLAUSE I think we've got a real problem that the chickens are | :53:00. | :53:07. | |
coming home to roost. Our historically euro scepticism means | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
that the euro and the architecture around it were being designed we | :53:11. | :53:18. | |
are not in the design office. It is disconcerting to a lot of us that | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
yet again we are telling continue. Nens how to sort out their problems. | :53:23. | :53:30. | |
Not good now I suppose saying well perhaps 30, 40, 50 years ago when | :53:30. | :53:36. | |
we should have been signing the treaties of Rome to in a sense here | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
still continue to expound what are quite aggressive and quite sad | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
sentiments. That is the most illogical argument I've heard in a | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
long, long time. One of the reasons we are in a better position than we | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
otherwise would be, because we were part of that argument and we put | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
the argument strongly that we did not want to be part of the euro. | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
When everyone was talking about the convergence criteria, William Hague | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
and John Major were lampooned. What about the divergence cry tear | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
yafrplt we were right and we won that argument and thank goodness we | :54:14. | :54:24. | |
:54:24. | :54:25. | ||
are not part of the euro. APPLAUSE You say you don't mind a few | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
entrepreneurial Greeks coming here, but what if they are followed by | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
the Spanish, the Italian, the Portuguese, the Irish? Don't you | :54:34. | :54:43. | |
think our little island might end up sinking? Victoria Coren? | :54:43. | :54:53. | |
:54:53. | :54:53. | ||
Greeks wouldn't make any difference to me, because I spend much of my | :54:53. | :54:59. | |
time in a casino and they are all Greek anyway. I mentioned that I | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
come from a family of European migrants and Britain gave them | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
shelter when they needed it and I'm certainly not going to say that now | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
I'm British myself I would want to refuse that shelter to anyone else. | :55:10. | :55:20. | |
I got a letter a week letter from someone, a five-page frothing rant | :55:20. | :55:27. | |
saying I fought in the war, people like you, foreigners, spongers, I | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
thought right, I'm not going bin it. Obviously a terrible nutter, I'm | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
not going to get angry but I'm going to write a long and careful | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
letter to this person, and treat him with respect. I wrote this | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
letter explaining that my family who came here put nothing from this | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
country and they put a lot in. They were builders and doctors, boosted | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
the nation and never took any benefit. I said it was wonderful he | :55:55. | :56:03. | |
fought in the war. I got a letter back from him, I'm so sorry, I'm 93 | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
and I have no idea what I wrote to you about. APPLAUSE Hello to that | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
chap if he is watching now. He probably doesn't remember, but my | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
position hasn't changed. I'm an optimist about people that come. | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
We'll make room and make space just like if an extra person turns up to | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
a party. You just stick more sausages the barbecue. Stella | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
Creasy? It does feel like we are looking down the wrong end of the | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
telescope. Your question is about the growing crisis on our doorstep | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
with the eurozone. If large quantities of people from Spain, | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
Italy and Greece are thinking about coming here it is because the | :56:47. | :56:54. | |
eurozone is in crisis. One of the things around the visas for the | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
Greek community is they are looking for failure. We are not going to | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
get yoth in this country if the eurozone falls apart. We need to | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
get our own economy back on its feet. There is no bad outcome for | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
the eurozone that isn't a bad outcome for Britain. The people | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
coming here would be the lice of the issues we have to deal with the | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
this collapse happens. I hear that kind of briefing and I see the | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
Prime Minister looking at Europe and shrugging and some people being | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
smug about the problems of the eurozone. They don't understand how | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
this cries lis affect us and people in my community searching for a | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
problem. We need to be talking about what we can do to get the | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
credit back into our economy and get businesses moving again. | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
They're offen trading with Europe. 50% of our trade is with Europe. | :57:48. | :57:55. | |
They need us to be serious partners to get this right, not to be on the | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
edges planning for failure as this Government is. We have to stop, | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
because our time is up. because our time is up. | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
Next week we'll be in Inverness. On our panel Charles Kennedy and the | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
actor Alan Coming and others. The following week we'll be in | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
Stockton-on-Tees. If you want to come to either, talk | :58:16. | :58:26. | |
:58:26. | :58:27. | ||
to our panel and argue with them, visit our website. | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
I thank our panel for coming in, Nicole included. I got it in the | :58:32. | :58:39. |