06/12/2012 Question Time


06/12/2012

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Liverpool. On the panel: Francis Maude MP, Andy Burnham MP, Tim Farron MP, Lionel Barber and Leanne Wood AM.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

QUESTION TIME FKR Y901T/01 BRD476880

2:00:002:00:00

.

2:37:012:37:08

The government tells us the pain will last longer than they thought.

2:37:132:37:15

What do voters think? Welcome to Question Time.

2:37:152:37:18

Good evening and a big welcome, as ever, to our audience in Liverpool,

2:37:242:37:27

an audience that is at the heart of Question Time,

2:37:272:37:29

and, of course, to our panel -

2:37:292:37:31

the Minister for the Cabinet Office, Francis Maude,

2:37:312:37:33

the shadow health secretary Andy Burnham,

2:37:332:37:36

the President of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron,

2:37:362:37:39

Leanne Wood, the leader of Plaid Cymru,

2:37:392:37:42

and the editor of The Financial Times, Lionel Barber.

2:37:422:37:45

APPLAUSE

2:37:452:37:48

Good. And Steve Kirkbride, you kick off tonight.

2:37:572:38:00

Do the panel agree with George Osborne -

2:38:002:38:03

are we "All in this together"?

2:38:032:38:05

"Are we all in this together?" Tim Farron?

2:38:052:38:07

Well, we need to be...

2:38:072:38:09

No, the question isn't "need", it's "are we".

2:38:092:38:11

-LAUGHTER

-OK, well, we need to be is the answer and I think that there

2:38:112:38:15

is a clear sense out there,

2:38:152:38:17

and if you're brought up in the North, like me,

2:38:172:38:20

and you've gone to a comprehensive school, like me,

2:38:202:38:22

and you've never experienced wealth, like me,

2:38:222:38:24

and probably most people here,

2:38:242:38:26

then there is a sense that there are some people

2:38:262:38:29

who are enduring these difficult times with more ease than others, shall we say,

2:38:292:38:33

when you've got people who are extremely wealthy

2:38:332:38:35

who remain extremely wealthy.

2:38:352:38:37

That's why it was important, for example, in the statement yesterday

2:38:372:38:40

that we increase the amount of tax that wealthy people pay.

2:38:402:38:43

Why it was important that we prevented it,

2:38:432:38:45

you will remember two months ago, at Tory conference in Birmingham,

2:38:452:38:48

they wanted to take ten billion out of welfare.

2:38:482:38:50

They wanted to stop young people claiming housing benefit,

2:38:502:38:53

they wanted to stop people on low incomes having child benefit

2:38:532:38:56

for a third child and above,

2:38:562:38:57

and you will have seen that none of those things

2:38:572:38:59

were in yesterday's statement.

2:38:592:39:01

It is critically important, at a time like this,

2:39:012:39:04

that we do protect the interests of those who are the least well off

2:39:042:39:07

and those people who are the richest should be paying more.

2:39:072:39:09

Should more be being done?

2:39:092:39:11

Yes, but I'm in no doubt whatsoever

2:39:112:39:13

that yesterday the changes that were made, from our perspective,

2:39:132:39:17

for example, the lowest-paid 23 million people in this country

2:39:172:39:20

now have an income tax cut,

2:39:202:39:21

if you're on minimum wage you've had a 50% income tax cut

2:39:212:39:24

in the last two years,

2:39:242:39:26

the pension's gone up by the highest amount since Lloyd George introduced it.

2:39:262:39:29

These are incredibly difficult times and we, as Lib Dems,

2:39:292:39:31

have to fight in the trenches, day in, day out, to make sure that

2:39:312:39:35

it's not just the poor who are paying the burden,

2:39:352:39:37

it is the rich who pay their fair share.

2:39:372:39:39

Where did you lose out? You say you'd like more to have been done.

2:39:392:39:43

Well, I personally take the view that we shouldn't have given away

2:39:432:39:46

the top rate of income tax down to 45p,

2:39:462:39:49

even though that's more than was the case in most of Labour's reign.

2:39:492:39:53

I take the view that not only should you be raising more money

2:39:532:39:55

from people who are the wealthiest,

2:39:552:39:57

you need to be seen to be doing it as well.

2:39:572:39:59

I take the view that whilst we're taking more from the bankers,

2:39:592:40:01

that is progress, we should be taking even more.

2:40:012:40:04

We shouldn't be reliant on Starbucks having to volunteer ten million

2:40:042:40:07

in terms of taxation.

2:40:072:40:09

We should be changing the tax code

2:40:092:40:11

so that incredibly wealthy multinationals

2:40:112:40:13

are paying their fair share.

2:40:132:40:14

APPLAUSE

2:40:142:40:17

Andy Burnham?

2:40:202:40:21

Well, no is the answer

2:40:212:40:23

and George Osborne can't know many people on benefits

2:40:232:40:26

because he thinks all, everybody who is on a benefit

2:40:262:40:28

is lying in bed until eight or nine o'clock with the curtains closed.

2:40:282:40:31

60% of the people he hit yesterday with his changes to benefits

2:40:312:40:35

are the people who he claims are walking past those houses

2:40:352:40:39

with the curtains closed, because people get working tax credit,

2:40:392:40:42

child tax credit.

2:40:422:40:44

Mums who get maternity benefit,

2:40:442:40:45

these are the people that he's hitting -

2:40:452:40:47

the so-called "strivers," as he says.

2:40:472:40:50

And, you know, and the money it raises

2:40:502:40:52

is exactly the same as the tax cut, the break is giving to millionaires

2:40:522:40:56

by cutting the top rate of tax from 50p to 45p.

2:40:562:41:00

And in a week when we learned from the Office of National Statistics

2:41:002:41:02

that the top ten percent are 850 times richer than the bottom ten percent,

2:41:022:41:09

how could these changes be fair at all?

2:41:092:41:11

Are you against the holding down benefits to one percent,

2:41:112:41:15

lower than inflation?

2:41:152:41:16

We're going to have to look at the bill that comes forward.

2:41:162:41:18

Well, this is George Osborne to a T. He sets these political traps

2:41:182:41:22

and it's all about trying to put us in a trap.

2:41:222:41:23

-We'll look at this bill when it comes forward.

-Why is it a trap?

2:41:232:41:26

Let me just come back on the general point.

2:41:262:41:28

The principle is wrong.

2:41:282:41:29

This kind of holding down benefits across the board.

2:41:292:41:32

Number one, it's going to hit kids.

2:41:322:41:34

It's going to hit the kids of these families who've got no,

2:41:342:41:36

they've got no choice about it.

2:41:362:41:38

Number two, it's going to damage the spending power of those families

2:41:382:41:40

-and that won't help the economy. Three, it's a false economy...

-So vote against!

2:41:402:41:44

-To fund some of those families...

-Are you going to vote against?

2:41:442:41:47

-We're going to look at the bill when it...

-Why not vote against after what you said?

2:41:472:41:50

There'll be a range of measures in there.

2:41:502:41:52

I don't want this blanket approach

2:41:522:41:53

where you hit all people in this way.

2:41:532:41:55

The last thing I want to say

2:41:552:41:57

is when people look back on this period

2:41:572:41:59

they will consider that phrase,

2:41:592:42:00

"We're all in it together," one of the most deceptive

2:42:002:42:03

and cruel pieces of political spin this country has ever heard.

2:42:032:42:06

APPLAUSE

2:42:062:42:09

Woman in the back, there. The woman at the very back. You.

2:42:102:42:14

You say, "All in this together," but at the end of the day,

2:42:142:42:17

you haven't met what you said you set out to do.

2:42:172:42:20

You were going to cut the deficit after so many years.

2:42:202:42:23

And, all of a sudden,

2:42:232:42:24

the country is lumbered in to have this for an extra six years.

2:42:242:42:28

Like, and there's people my age in this country now who are just

2:42:282:42:31

graduating uni, have already graduated,

2:42:312:42:33

and they're just looking at this bleak, black hole in front of them.

2:42:332:42:36

There's no way to get out of it.

2:42:362:42:38

That's a generation that's just probably,

2:42:382:42:40

-just been lost from this whole mess that's been created.

-Francis Maude.

2:42:402:42:45

Well, I have children of your age and I don't want them

2:42:452:42:49

and their children, and generations to come to have to bear,

2:42:492:42:54

pick up the tab for our failure to deal with the deficit

2:42:542:42:58

that we inherited.

2:42:582:43:00

So we have to do these difficult things, and is painful,

2:43:002:43:03

and there's no way of doing this in a way that protects

2:43:032:43:06

everyone from the effects of it.

2:43:062:43:09

We, it started with the biggest budget deficit

2:43:092:43:13

of any country in the developed world.

2:43:132:43:15

We've cut it by a quarter.

2:43:152:43:16

It's continuing to fall, we need to do more.

2:43:162:43:19

And the heaviest burden has to be carried by those

2:43:192:43:24

-who are the richest and that is happening...

-They're not.

2:43:242:43:28

-I'm sorry, Andy, but it simply is the case.

-So, why did you cut...?

2:43:282:43:31

Read what the IFS has said today.

2:43:312:43:32

I have done and they absolutely bear out that the heaviest burden

2:43:322:43:35

is carried by the richest.

2:43:352:43:37

Why did you go against the...?

2:43:372:43:39

-DAVID DIMBLEBY CLEARS HIS THROAT

-..and it's right that it should be the case...

2:43:392:43:42

Why did you change your mind, then and then not impose the mansion tax?

2:43:422:43:46

APPLAUSE

2:43:462:43:49

Just to pick up that point,

2:43:522:43:54

we have already increased the rate of stamp duty on the largest houses,

2:43:542:43:59

raised it considerably above what Labour put in place.

2:43:592:44:02

Just this stuff about the top rate of tax,

2:44:022:44:04

you know, Labour went for 13 years in government

2:44:042:44:08

with a top rate of tax of 40%.

2:44:082:44:10

For the last three weeks that they were in government,

2:44:102:44:13

there was a top rate of tax of 50p.

2:44:132:44:16

And the tax yield fell, actually -

2:44:162:44:19

from the people earning over £1 million a year,

2:44:192:44:23

the amount of tax they paid fell by £7 billion.

2:44:232:44:29

So that actually meant

2:44:292:44:31

that because of that pure piece of political posturing

2:44:312:44:34

in the dying days of a failed government,

2:44:342:44:37

actually, the burden on the rest of the taxpayers rose.

2:44:372:44:41

That's not the right thing to do.

2:44:412:44:43

OK, the woman here on the right.

2:44:432:44:44

APPLAUSE

2:44:442:44:46

Do you not think if we're constantly highering the taxes

2:44:462:44:50

for the high earners, then we're highering benefits as well,

2:44:502:44:53

so those who aren't earning are getting more benefits

2:44:532:44:55

and those who are working are getting less money.

2:44:552:44:57

You're in danger of sort of promoting being on benefits.

2:44:572:45:00

I know my family - my dad would be better off not working,

2:45:002:45:03

he'd get more money from benefits.

2:45:032:45:04

That's not promoting people to go out and get work.

2:45:042:45:07

-He'd be better off on benefits?

-Yeah, he would.

2:45:072:45:09

Sleeping with the curtains drawn?

2:45:092:45:11

In terms of what he had in his bank account, yeah, he would.

2:45:112:45:13

-I don't think that's right.

-OK.

-It's not promoting people going to work.

2:45:132:45:16

That's why we're reforming the welfare system.

2:45:162:45:19

Nobody wants to support people who are playing the system.

2:45:192:45:21

But what this is doing is this blanket approach...

2:45:212:45:24

And many of the benefits people get,

2:45:242:45:26

like council tax benefit, housing benefit,

2:45:262:45:28

these are people who are working who get these benefits.

2:45:282:45:31

George Osborne is running this line

2:45:312:45:33

that everyone who claims a benefit is bad.

2:45:332:45:35

These are people who work hard, try their best.

2:45:352:45:37

That bit of help keeps them going

2:45:372:45:39

and taking it away really kind of is quite cruel, to be honest.

2:45:392:45:42

Andy, the overwhelming majority of people on benefits will actually...

2:45:422:45:47

If they're working, they will benefit

2:45:472:45:50

from the rise in the personal tax threshold,

2:45:502:45:53

which is a total coalition commitment,

2:45:532:45:55

and we've raised it way above anything Labour did.

2:45:552:45:58

What you called political posturing, the 50p tax rate,

2:45:582:46:01

the reduction of that to 45p will give millionaires

2:46:012:46:05

£100,000 tax break next April.

2:46:052:46:07

How can you possibly justify that?

2:46:072:46:10

Because you had 13 years in power...

2:46:102:46:11

How can you justify never having done it yourself?

2:46:112:46:13

You had 13 years in power and never did it,

2:46:132:46:15

until the last three weeks, as he said.

2:46:152:46:17

You may have noticed, David, there was a big change...

2:46:172:46:20

APPLAUSE Lionel Barber. I'll come back.

2:46:202:46:22

-There was a big change in the world economy.

-Lionel Barber.

2:46:222:46:25

-You may have noticed it.

-Lionel Barber.

2:46:252:46:27

Are we in this together?

2:46:272:46:28

In one sense, you bet, because we're all in a huge hole.

2:46:282:46:34

The hole we inherited from the Labour Government,

2:46:342:46:37

in terms of this vast, vast hole in public finances.

2:46:372:46:43

But on a more serious note, I agree with Andy. We're not.

2:46:432:46:47

We're not in this fully together, because the poor,

2:46:472:46:52

those out of work, those who are receiving allowances,

2:46:522:46:56

even though they're working, even short-time working,

2:46:562:46:59

they're having to bear a very heavy price

2:46:592:47:01

and I'm talking about the welfare cuts.

2:47:012:47:04

They're not being uprated in terms of inflation.

2:47:042:47:07

The rich, yes, they are losing

2:47:072:47:08

some of the tax benefits on their pension contributions,

2:47:082:47:12

but George Osborne made a very serious political error

2:47:122:47:17

when he reduced the highest rate of income tax in this country.

2:47:172:47:21

I say that because it is not proven in any way

2:47:212:47:24

that this was going to create jobs or foster investment.

2:47:242:47:28

You could have kept it at 50p and then you would have had

2:47:282:47:31

a much more powerful message to everybody in this country

2:47:312:47:35

that we really are in it together.

2:47:352:47:38

Do you believe, as some of the people

2:47:382:47:40

who write in your newspaper say,

2:47:402:47:41

and I assume you agree with what they say,

2:47:412:47:44

that the proper thing the Government should do

2:47:442:47:46

is get the economy moving by pumping much more money...

2:47:462:47:48

I think Skidelsky was saying £100 billion of extra spending.

2:47:482:47:52

Do you want to see that?

2:47:522:47:53

You're suggesting that we are all Keynesians now?

2:47:532:47:56

Well, not quite, David.

2:47:562:47:57

The fact is we have a huge budget deficit.

2:47:572:48:01

It's much bigger than most European countries.

2:48:012:48:04

If we were to change the fiscal policy as it stands,

2:48:042:48:09

we would risk losing the confidence of the financial markets, which...

2:48:092:48:13

Basically, they've given us benefit of the doubt.

2:48:132:48:16

Interest rates would likely rise, borrowing costs would rise

2:48:162:48:20

and we'd be in an even bigger hole.

2:48:202:48:22

Leanne Wood?

2:48:222:48:24

I don't think we are all in this together.

2:48:242:48:27

In Liverpool, three times as many people this year

2:48:272:48:32

will be fed by a food bank than was the case last year.

2:48:322:48:36

And throughout the United Kingdom, 200,000 people

2:48:362:48:40

will be fed by food banks next year.

2:48:402:48:42

That's the modern-day soup kitchen.

2:48:422:48:45

How have we found ourselves in this situation in 2012

2:48:452:48:49

in what's the fourth or fifth richest economy in the world?

2:48:492:48:52

I just don't understand.

2:48:522:48:54

For you to say, Francis Maude, that the highest earners

2:48:542:48:59

are bearing as much of the burden of this as the lowest income,

2:48:592:49:04

I have to dispute that, because a £5 cut to somebody on benefits

2:49:042:49:09

makes a much bigger impact on their life

2:49:092:49:12

than a £1,000 cut to a millionaire.

2:49:122:49:15

And that's the reality of the situation.

2:49:152:49:17

The woman up...

2:49:202:49:23

The woman up there. Yes, you.

2:49:232:49:24

I think what the general public object to mainly

2:49:242:49:28

is the use of the phrase, "We're all in this together,"

2:49:282:49:30

when we all know we're not.

2:49:302:49:32

Personally, I'd rather you said,

2:49:322:49:34

"This is really hard, you going to have to deal with it,"

2:49:342:49:37

rather than trying...

2:49:372:49:38

It's like you think we're stupid - by saying,

2:49:382:49:41

"We're all in it together," we're going to believe it

2:49:412:49:43

and say, "Oh, yes," when we know we're not all in it together.

2:49:432:49:46

It is not the same, like Leanne just said.

2:49:462:49:48

It's the use of these tag lines that is infuriating.

2:49:482:49:52

It is an assumption that Joe Public will buy it, when we don't buy it.

2:49:522:49:57

-We're not in it together.

-No, you're right.

-Francis Maude?

2:49:572:49:59

-There's a question...

-No, Leanne, let Francis reply to that.

2:49:592:50:03

My point is not that it is the same for everybody, it clearly isn't.

2:50:032:50:07

You can't do things

2:50:072:50:08

which will have exactly the same effect on everybody.

2:50:082:50:11

But, actually, the point we're making

2:50:112:50:13

is that everyone has to carry some of the pain.

2:50:132:50:15

And, you know, we didn't want to be in this position,

2:50:152:50:18

we didn't want to be in a position

2:50:182:50:20

where we had an economy that hasn't picked up,

2:50:202:50:22

the Office for Budget Responsibility...

2:50:222:50:24

-ANDY BURNHAM:

-Whose fault is that?

2:50:242:50:26

The Office for Budget Responsibility

2:50:262:50:28

say that it is because of the loss of trade in the Eurozone.

2:50:282:50:31

So now you're in, it's what's going on in the world economy,

2:50:312:50:34

and when we were in, it was all our fault? It's very...

2:50:342:50:37

APPLAUSE

2:50:372:50:38

Andy. Andy, since you mention it...

2:50:382:50:40

You may have noticed there is a worldwide crash.

2:50:402:50:44

Andy, since you mention it, I'll say what was your fault,

2:50:442:50:46

for which you've not said sorry -

2:50:462:50:48

you actually ran up the biggest budget deficit in the world.

2:50:482:50:53

You were Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

2:50:532:50:55

It was lower before the crash, and you know that's true.

2:50:552:50:58

You left the biggest overdraft, you maxed out the credit card

2:50:582:51:02

and it is your children and my children and their grandchildren

2:51:022:51:06

who are going to be picking up the tab for it for generations to come.

2:51:062:51:10

Man in the second row from the back there.

2:51:102:51:12

Undoubtedly, if you take a long-term view,

2:51:122:51:15

the optimum corporation tax and income tax rate

2:51:152:51:17

doesn't necessarily have to be higher.

2:51:172:51:19

If you reduce it, you give rich people an incentive

2:51:192:51:22

to remain in the country and companies a reason to invest.

2:51:222:51:26

It's likely that by decreasing tax rates you can improve HMRC's income.

2:51:262:51:32

That's a very reasonable view

2:51:322:51:34

and for Andy Burnham to say, "We'll stick at 50% for income tax,"

2:51:342:51:37

is not necessarily the best approach to take.

2:51:372:51:40

Well, he hasn't said that, actually.

2:51:402:51:42

Andy, would you introduce the 50% rate?

2:51:422:51:44

If Labour had done yesterday's statement,

2:51:442:51:46

we would have reintroduced the 50p rate from next April,

2:51:462:51:49

because it is just not fair to hit the lowest paid in this country...

2:51:492:51:53

-When you're re-elected...

-One second. One second.

2:51:532:51:56

..when you a huge amount of money and a tax break

2:51:562:51:59

to the highest earners.

2:51:592:52:00

Lionel is right - this has to mean what it says

2:52:002:52:02

and the Government's failure to do that is, quite frankly, immoral.

2:52:022:52:06

-Would you reintroduce it, Andy?

-I just said we would!

2:52:062:52:08

-If we were doing that statement...

-At the next election?

2:52:082:52:11

If you win the next election?

2:52:112:52:12

If we'd done that statement, we would've reintroduced it.

2:52:122:52:15

You can't say yes or no.

2:52:152:52:17

I want to go over to the far right, over there. Yes?

2:52:172:52:20

The kids in this city are going to be going hungry

2:52:202:52:25

because of these cuts.

2:52:252:52:27

And you cannot ever say that cuts in tax for some rich person,

2:52:272:52:33

who's never had to budget for the food for their kids,

2:52:332:52:37

for their kids' shoes, is anything like comparable.

2:52:372:52:41

Our kids are entitled to enough food to live decently.

2:52:412:52:46

They're entitled to warmth in the winter.

2:52:462:52:48

And your Government is taking that directly from the kids.

2:52:482:52:54

And the kids are going to suffer!

2:52:542:52:55

APPLAUSE

2:52:552:52:57

And the person there in grey. In the grey pullover.

2:53:012:53:04

Was it right for the Government to cut another penny

2:53:042:53:07

off corporation tax, when the level of taxation is already

2:53:072:53:12

one of the lowest in the Western world for company taxation?

2:53:122:53:16

And we have not talked about tax avoidance yet, have we?

2:53:162:53:19

Tax avoidance and tax evasion.

2:53:192:53:21

We'll come to that maybe later on. Lionel Barber.

2:53:212:53:23

We need to bring companies to this country,

2:53:232:53:26

people who are going to invest and create jobs.

2:53:262:53:29

There is a lot of competition,

2:53:292:53:31

a lot of places where people, countries,

2:53:312:53:34

are trying to attract those corporations.

2:53:342:53:36

And, in that sense, I think to go for your comparative advantage,

2:53:362:53:40

it was a good move, it was an important signal.

2:53:402:53:42

But when you have a corporation tax of 21%,

2:53:422:53:45

it would be very good if the companies actually paid it.

2:53:452:53:48

-LEANNE WOOD:

-Yeah, yeah.

2:53:482:53:49

I'm going to move on, because we've had quarter of an hour on that

2:53:522:53:55

and we'll come back, perhaps, to the economy a bit later.

2:53:552:53:58

I want to question from Alison Piers.

2:53:582:54:00

Before I do, remember you can join in this debate,

2:54:002:54:03

as always, on Twitter. Our hashtag - #bbcqt.

2:54:032:54:06

Our Twitter panellist tonight is the Times columnist Hugo Rifkind,

2:54:062:54:10

and you can follow him on the @BBCExtraGuest account.

2:54:102:54:13

Or you can text your comments,

2:54:132:54:15

press the red button to see what others are saying.

2:54:152:54:19

I see that the Pope is starting tweeting soon,

2:54:192:54:21

so we'll get infallible comments from that source.

2:54:212:54:24

Ex cathedra.

2:54:242:54:25

Alison Piers, please.

2:54:252:54:27

How does the Government plan to ensure

2:54:282:54:30

that care and compassion is restored back into the NHS?

2:54:302:54:34

"How does the Government plan to restore care and compassion...?"

2:54:342:54:37

In light of a speech

2:54:372:54:39

that the new Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, made, I think.

2:54:392:54:43

Which was he said that in places in NHS hospitals,

2:54:432:54:47

"where there should be compassion, we find the opposite -

2:54:472:54:51

"a coldness, resentment, indifference, even contempt.

2:54:512:54:54

"And in the worst cases, something even darker,

2:54:542:54:57

"a kind of normalisation of cruelty,

2:54:572:55:00

"where the unacceptable is legitimised

2:55:002:55:03

"and the callous becomes mundane."

2:55:032:55:05

He said that last Thursday.

2:55:052:55:08

Andy Burnham, you're a shadow Secretary of State.

2:55:082:55:10

-Did you recognise the description of Jeremy Hunt, of some nursing?

-I do.

2:55:102:55:15

There are recurrent stories of older people lost in acute hospitals,

2:55:152:55:19

disorientated, dehydrated.

2:55:192:55:22

I was Health Secretary when the stuff at Mid Staffs Hospital

2:55:222:55:25

was happening and I had to reflect very, very carefully on all this.

2:55:252:55:27

I think there are some nurses who let down the profession,

2:55:272:55:30

but the vast majority don't, they do a fantastic job.

2:55:302:55:34

Their job is made harder by people like me at times

2:55:342:55:36

giving them too much paperwork.

2:55:362:55:38

Sometimes managers cut the front line

2:55:382:55:40

but protect management jobs, and that's not fair.

2:55:402:55:42

But it goes far deeper than all of this.

2:55:422:55:45

I went work shadowing and I shadowed a nurse in the Royal Derby

2:55:452:55:48

and I asked her this question,

2:55:482:55:50

"Why do we hear these stories coming back?"

2:55:502:55:52

And she said to me... The best answer she could give me was,

2:55:522:55:55

when she trained 10 or 20 years ago,

2:55:552:55:57

they saw people on the ward after surgery in their 60s or 70s.

2:55:572:56:01

She said, "Now, we see lots of older people

2:56:012:56:03

"in their 80s or 90s after major surgery.

2:56:032:56:05

"And it's the complex job of caring for those people,

2:56:052:56:08

"it's just so different to what we did when we trained."

2:56:082:56:11

And those pressures are huge -

2:56:112:56:13

the ageing society really is putting intense pressure

2:56:132:56:16

on the NHS front line.

2:56:162:56:18

And those older people have social care needs,

2:56:182:56:20

mental health care needs, physical needs,

2:56:202:56:22

and it's difficult to cater for all of that in hospitals

2:56:222:56:25

that, quite honestly, were designed for the 20th century, not the 21st.

2:56:252:56:28

So it is a complex question. And it really needs...

2:56:282:56:31

Any single thing you would like to see done about it?

2:56:312:56:34

Let me give you some specifics on the here and now.

2:56:342:56:36

Jeremy Hunt says all of this,

2:56:362:56:37

his Government has cut 7,000 nurses from the NHS front line.

2:56:372:56:42

And, as I proved this week, contrary to the pledge they've made,

2:56:422:56:45

they've cut the NHS in real terms.

2:56:452:56:48

The CQC, the Care Quality Commission,

2:56:482:56:50

said recently that 16% of hospitals in England

2:56:502:56:53

do not have adequate staffing levels.

2:56:532:56:56

Just think about that statement for one minute -

2:56:562:56:58

16% are running below safe staffing levels.

2:56:582:57:00

These are the things he should be addressing,

2:57:002:57:02

rather than making grand statements and blaming nurses.

2:57:022:57:05

He should be dealing with those things,

2:57:052:57:07

supporting the NHS front line so it can give the best quality of care

2:57:072:57:10

in the current circumstances.

2:57:102:57:13

Leanne Wood.

2:57:132:57:15

The Royal College of Nursing have supported the campaign

2:57:192:57:23

to promote dignity in the NHS,

2:57:232:57:25

and I think that's something worth supporting.

2:57:252:57:29

But the fear is, with more cutbacks,

2:57:292:57:31

that this is a problem that's going to become worse.

2:57:312:57:34

There are lots of pressures on nurses

2:57:342:57:36

and medical staff to reach targets.

2:57:362:57:39

There are also limited resources.

2:57:392:57:41

I know, for example, that medical staff have complained

2:57:412:57:45

about shortages of bedding and things like that.

2:57:452:57:48

And staff can feel harassed and pressured

2:57:482:57:50

when there are long queues in A&E and all those sorts of things.

2:57:502:57:55

All of that is reality,

2:57:552:57:57

but none of it is to excuse bad and cruel practice.

2:57:572:58:02

I think one of the things that could help

2:58:022:58:05

is much more linking up between health services and social services,

2:58:052:58:09

to ensure that people's whole needs are met,

2:58:092:58:12

so that people are not just looked at as a medical problem

2:58:122:58:16

but their social needs are addressed, too.

2:58:162:58:18

Do you recognise the description of some nurses

2:58:182:58:21

as "lacking compassion" and "lacking care" for their patients?

2:58:212:58:24

I personally haven't had any experience of anybody...

2:58:242:58:27

But Wales is where the Government's been cutting back on the NHS.

2:58:272:58:31

-There's been cutbacks...

-Have you got experience of that?

2:58:312:58:34

No, not personally, but I can't say it doesn't happen either.

2:58:342:58:37

The man in the second row there.

2:58:372:58:39

I'd just like to say, I think this Government

2:58:392:58:41

is determined to bring in privatisation

2:58:412:58:43

of the National Health Service

2:58:432:58:44

and will systematically reduce the standards

2:58:442:58:46

and the care until the rest of the country believes

2:58:462:58:50

the claptrap that they're feeding us, so they can bring in their chums

2:58:502:58:53

from all these organisations that are members of various boards.

2:58:532:58:57

These people will come in and we will be turning up at Casualty

2:58:572:59:00

with a credit card in our hands,

2:59:002:59:02

and our kids' health care will be absolutely abysmal

2:59:022:59:04

if you're not in the top bracket.

2:59:042:59:06

Tim Farron, is that a fair...?

2:59:062:59:08

-LEANNE WOOD:

-Can I just...?

2:59:082:59:09

Hold on a second, I'll come back to you.

2:59:092:59:12

Is that a fair description of coalition policy on health?

2:59:122:59:15

I don't think it is.

2:59:152:59:16

The biggest threat the private sector poses

2:59:162:59:19

to the National Health Service is the PFI legacy we've inherited.

2:59:192:59:22

If you look at the average NHS Trust up and down this country,

2:59:222:59:25

why are they struggling financially?

2:59:252:59:27

It's cos one pound in five is going to the bankers,

2:59:272:59:30

rather than on to the ward. That's an outrage.

2:59:302:59:32

That is the legacy we inherited.

2:59:322:59:34

To answer the question that Alison asked,

2:59:342:59:37

I think, actually, it's a fairly harsh description

2:59:372:59:39

of the overwhelming majority of nurses in this country.

2:59:392:59:43

But, in my personal experience,

2:59:432:59:47

my mum passed away at far too early an age from cancer.

2:59:472:59:51

The care that she received was outstanding,

2:59:512:59:54

in an NHS hospital a few miles north of here in Preston.

2:59:542:59:57

So my personal experience of the NHS is outstanding,

2:59:573:00:01

and the compassion that I see from nurses is also outstanding.

3:00:013:00:04

But I can't ignore the evidence in my postbag, as a constituency MP,

3:00:043:00:09

that there are instances, from time to time, of a complete lack of that.

3:00:093:00:13

Or the MP, the Labour MP, Ann Clwyd,

3:00:133:00:15

who described her husband "dying like a battery hen."

3:00:153:00:18

It was really moving.

3:00:183:00:19

She had the last question in Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday.

3:00:193:00:23

It was deeply moving to watch that and my heart went out to her.

3:00:233:00:26

-There are plenty of people like that.

-How do you prevent that?

3:00:263:00:29

There are two quick analyses, I guess -

3:00:293:00:33

one is it was absolutely right

3:00:333:00:35

to move nursing into being a graduate profession.

3:00:353:00:37

Absolutely right.

3:00:373:00:39

But what a lot of nurses tell me

3:00:393:00:41

is that there is an awful lot of emphasis on the clinical stuff,

3:00:413:00:45

absolutely right, and a bit less emphasis

3:00:453:00:47

than there ought to have been on the human stuff.

3:00:473:00:50

The other thing is, I think Leanne mentioned it,

3:00:503:00:52

if you have a culture within the NHS of box-ticking

3:00:523:00:56

and reaching targets all the time,

3:00:563:00:58

then your ability to actually provide those soft skills,

3:00:583:01:01

to make sure that someone with dementia actually eats, for example,

3:01:013:01:04

is hugely reduced.

3:01:043:01:06

There is no league table for compassion.

3:01:063:01:08

Therefore, I'm afraid, often that falls off.

3:01:083:01:10

Scrapping the target culture is the critical answer.

3:01:103:01:13

OK. APPLAUSE

3:01:133:01:15

Do you want to come back on that?

3:01:153:01:17

I would rather see one pound in every five go to the PFI

3:01:183:01:22

than two pound in every five going to the shareholders.

3:01:223:01:24

Every nationalised industry in this country is a disaster.

3:01:243:01:27

Look at your gas, look at your railways, everything.

3:01:273:01:30

Absolutely. We should never have sold them off!

3:01:303:01:32

No, exactly.

3:01:323:01:33

The National Health Service is the last thing we've got to nationalise.

3:01:333:01:37

Then it'd be a complete hat-trick for...

3:01:373:01:39

well, our fellows in the blue ties.

3:01:393:01:41

-It's happening!

-Lionel Barber.

3:01:413:01:43

-Lionel Barber.

-Andy has described very eloquently

3:01:433:01:46

the pressures in hospitals,

3:01:463:01:47

particularly when dealing with an ageing population.

3:01:473:01:50

The fact is, this week, the chief nursing officer described

3:01:503:01:55

nursing care standards in hospitals as very poor.

3:01:553:01:59

And hospitals in England are said to be now bursting.

3:01:593:02:02

So there is a real problem. How are we going to treat it?

3:02:023:02:05

Well, not by pouring money at it,

3:02:053:02:08

not by adopting a box-ticking culture.

3:02:083:02:11

We've poured lots of money into the National Health Service

3:02:113:02:14

over the last ten years.

3:02:143:02:15

Part of the problem is management, it's about leadership.

3:02:153:02:19

It's about expecting high standards

3:02:193:02:21

and finding ways to take off the pressure

3:02:213:02:24

from people who are dealing with very, very difficult problems

3:02:243:02:28

with patients, in very difficult hours and circumstances.

3:02:283:02:32

OK. I want to... I think you've spoken already,

3:02:323:02:34

I'd like to come to anyone who hasn't.

3:02:343:02:36

I'll come to you, and then to Francis Maude.

3:02:363:02:39

My mum had dementia, and in 1999, she was in two hospital wards.

3:02:393:02:43

One was excellent and one was quite poor.

3:02:433:02:46

So we as a family decided that we wouldn't allow her

3:02:463:02:49

to stay in hospital on her own,

3:02:493:02:50

so we were there from morning till bedtime,

3:02:503:02:53

to make sure she did get fed and she was looked after properly.

3:02:533:02:57

I think the problem is,

3:02:573:02:58

we learnt as a family how to deal with my mum over the years.

3:02:583:03:01

It's hard to explain, but you need to have that sort of understanding.

3:03:013:03:06

It doesn't come to you.

3:03:063:03:08

It's not something that you can pick up in a hospital ward.

3:03:083:03:11

You need to have a real understanding.

3:03:113:03:13

I think it's partly down to training as well.

3:03:133:03:15

I mean, compassion is compassion, I understand that.

3:03:153:03:18

But you do need extra training to look after the elderly.

3:03:183:03:21

-Francis Maude.

-Well, I think it's...

3:03:213:03:23

I think Tim is in the right of it, actually.

3:03:233:03:26

I think overwhelmingly, most nurses are compassionate.

3:03:263:03:30

I don't have any doubt about that at all.

3:03:303:03:32

But that there are examples of

3:03:323:03:35

a lack of that kind of human kindness

3:03:353:03:37

and compassion is undoubtedly the case.

3:03:373:03:40

You mentioned the Ann Clywd experience, and Tim's right,

3:03:403:03:43

she was very, very moving in the House of Commons earlier this week.

3:03:433:03:48

I think anyone who is a constituency MP will have had letters

3:03:483:03:54

from patients and relatives of patients,

3:03:543:03:57

concerned about the basic care.

3:03:573:03:59

It's very rarely complaints about the medical care,

3:03:593:04:02

it's about the basic care. How do you change that?

3:04:023:04:06

Well, I think we've had a culture in the NHS which is too much about

3:04:063:04:11

bureaucracy and administration and not enough about leadership.

3:04:113:04:15

And not enough about asking patients what their experience was.

3:04:153:04:19

And I think one of the things that Jeremy Hunt's committed to do

3:04:193:04:22

is enable patients in all hospitals

3:04:223:04:25

to independently feed in their reactions.

3:04:253:04:29

Would you recommend this hospital to your family and friends?

3:04:293:04:32

I think a lot of the times when there is a culture in the hospital

3:04:323:04:36

of this lack of compassion, a lack of kindness,

3:04:363:04:41

actually I don't think the people in the hospital will know about it.

3:04:413:04:44

If you start to surface that, then I think people will respond.

3:04:443:04:47

Most people aren't unkind, most people want to do the right thing,

3:04:473:04:51

want to look after patients right,

3:04:513:04:53

and may just not know that actually, that isn't coming across.

3:04:533:04:57

Just before we... Have we got any nurses here who want to come in?

3:04:573:05:01

-Are you a nurse?

-Yes. Three of the panel have mentioned leadership

3:05:013:05:05

as being critical in terms of having the right standards,

3:05:053:05:08

but I think Andy's point about the reduction in numbers,

3:05:083:05:11

it tends to be the experienced, more qualified,

3:05:113:05:14

higher-grade nursing posts that are going.

3:05:143:05:17

And that's one of the challenges about maintaining those standards,

3:05:173:05:20

but care and compassion and kindness costs nothing.

3:05:203:05:23

-Where do you nurse?

-I've retired, but I'm still a qualified nurse.

3:05:233:05:27

There was another nurse with their hand up there, yes, the person there?

3:05:273:05:31

I agree that the ageing population

3:05:313:05:33

has meant that care has become more complex,

3:05:333:05:36

but that's not something that the nursing staff complain of.

3:05:363:05:40

They do complain about the two things that Andy touched upon,

3:05:403:05:44

which is the amount of paperwork that they have to go through

3:05:443:05:47

and also, the lack of staff on the wards to support them.

3:05:473:05:52

And particularly the paperwork does take away the time spent

3:05:523:05:57

being able to deliver good quality basic nursing care.

3:05:573:06:01

What about the issue of care and compassion

3:06:013:06:03

that you asked in your question?

3:06:033:06:05

How would you like to see that restored?

3:06:053:06:07

Um, I think there's almost two elements to this.

3:06:073:06:09

I think the care and compassion,

3:06:093:06:12

personally, I think that tends to be lacking

3:06:123:06:15

generally in society at the moment and I think that that is just

3:06:153:06:18

naturally reflected in the profession.

3:06:183:06:21

I think mostly with the... really looking at the paperwork

3:06:213:06:25

and looking at the staffing levels.

3:06:253:06:27

-Time to care, in other words.

-Absolutely.

3:06:273:06:29

And the man there in the middle, you, sir.

3:06:293:06:31

I think what's disappointing

3:06:313:06:33

is the way Jeremy Hunt's gone about doing this.

3:06:333:06:35

There is a debate to be had about the NHS, definitely,

3:06:353:06:38

but what Jeremy Hunt's done,

3:06:383:06:39

like so many politicians, which is disappointing,

3:06:393:06:41

is use an oblique approach to open up the debate,

3:06:413:06:44

as someone at the front said. Using a sideways attack,

3:06:443:06:46

he is trying to introduce it into the public.

3:06:463:06:49

-That's quite disappointing.

-I think that's exactly what he's doing.

3:06:493:06:52

Like Michael Gove just blames it all on the teachers,

3:06:523:06:55

Jeremy Hunt's doing the same thing, it's all about the staff,

3:06:553:06:58

it's nothing to do with them.

3:06:583:06:59

Let's remember, they promised no top-down reorganisation.

3:06:593:07:02

They brought forward the biggest ever in the history of the NHS.

3:07:023:07:05

They promised funding increases, they've cut it in real terms.

3:07:053:07:08

They promised no hospital closures, they're closing everywhere.

3:07:083:07:11

This prime minister was elected on his promises on the back of the NHS

3:07:113:07:14

and he's completely and utterly betrayed it.

3:07:143:07:16

I thought they'd abandoned the reorganisation of the NHS.

3:07:163:07:19

No, sadly, it's coming through. And as he said,

3:07:193:07:21

this is taking the NHS to a complete free-market approach to healthcare.

3:07:213:07:26

We celebrated our NHS at the opening ceremony of our Olympic Games

3:07:263:07:30

because people believe in its values, people before profit.

3:07:303:07:33

The bill they put through Parliament just basically destroys all of that.

3:07:333:07:37

And it's the saddest thing. We will carry on fighting it,

3:07:373:07:40

but the NHS will not stand two terms of this government.

3:07:403:07:43

Andy Burnham, wasn't it...?

3:07:433:07:44

APPLAUSE

3:07:443:07:46

Wasn't it you who said

3:07:503:07:52

it's irresponsible to increase NHS spending in real terms?

3:07:523:07:55

Yes, and you know why?

3:07:553:07:56

I said it should be frozen in real terms because any...

3:07:563:08:00

It would not make sense to give the NHS an increase

3:08:003:08:03

if the way you paid for that was hollowing out council budgets.

3:08:033:08:06

Leanne is absolutely right about that, these are essentially

3:08:063:08:09

one system now, that's the way I want to see it,

3:08:093:08:11

full integration of health and social care.

3:08:113:08:13

The reason why our hospitals are full, as Lionel said,

3:08:133:08:17

is because they can't discharge any more,

3:08:173:08:19

there's no support in the community,

3:08:193:08:21

so they're running at 90% capacity.

3:08:213:08:23

You've got to give the money to social care too.

3:08:233:08:26

I said have a balanced approach to giving the money to the NHS

3:08:263:08:29

and to social care but this government has actually cut.

3:08:293:08:33

Very briefly, Francis, then Leanne.

3:08:333:08:35

Just on the spending, the first year was,

3:08:363:08:40

of this government's spending on the NHS, those were your plans, Andy.

3:08:403:08:44

No, let him answer.

3:08:443:08:45

We've increased it since then and we will continue to increase it.

3:08:453:08:48

You said that was irresponsible, and we know you mean it because you...

3:08:483:08:52

The chair of the UK Statistics Authority, Andrew Dilnot,

3:08:523:08:56

wrote to me this week and said you cannot carry on saying that

3:08:563:08:59

because you have cut it.

3:08:593:09:01

So please do not repeat that falsehood on the television tonight.

3:09:013:09:04

We're increasing it from what you left.

3:09:043:09:06

APPLAUSE

3:09:063:09:08

And let me remind you about the coalition agreement.

3:09:083:09:10

"We will increase NHS spending in every year of this parliament,"

3:09:103:09:14

you haven't done it.

3:09:143:09:15

-Actually, we have.

-You haven't.

-We took your plans and increased it.

3:09:153:09:19

Listen to what Andrew Dilnot said this week.

3:09:193:09:22

OK, this is a sterile argument.

3:09:223:09:24

If we want to know what Labour really thinks about it,

3:09:243:09:27

we look at what Labour is doing in Wales.

3:09:273:09:30

In Wales, Labour has cut spending on the NHS by 8%,

3:09:303:09:35

not freezing it, not increasing it, cutting it.

3:09:353:09:38

-Can I just say on this point...

-A last point if you would.

3:09:383:09:40

Your government has cut the Welsh Assembly's block grant,

3:09:403:09:44

and that is why there has to be a cut to the NHS. Now...

3:09:443:09:48

APPLAUSE

3:09:483:09:49

What I would like to know is, how much the NHS in England

3:09:513:09:54

is spending on paying back the PFI loans?

3:09:543:09:58

We haven't gone down the PFI route in Wales,

3:09:583:10:00

we've got a more independent health service in Wales,

3:10:003:10:03

and that has meant there is more money about

3:10:033:10:07

because we're not paying back the debt.

3:10:073:10:09

-Your party introduced PFI into the NHS.

-It was the Treasury minister.

3:10:093:10:15

Do you regret introducing it?

3:10:153:10:17

I think we won't wind back any further. No, I think we'll move on.

3:10:173:10:21

Thank you, Leanne, for the points. We must go onto another question.

3:10:213:10:25

This one is from Doreen Squires, please.

3:10:253:10:28

Doreen Squires, where are you?

3:10:283:10:31

Do the panel trust the press to regulate themselves?

3:10:313:10:35

Do the panel trust the press to regulate themselves?

3:10:353:10:38

Lionel Barber, you've been in Downing Street today

3:10:383:10:41

talking about how the press should control itself.

3:10:413:10:45

Do you trust yourselves to regulate yourselves?

3:10:453:10:48

Or should there be the law there?

3:10:483:10:51

Now, David, you've always been a stickler for accuracy.

3:10:513:10:54

So I think it should be pointed out that

3:10:543:10:57

I was in Downing Street two days ago.

3:10:573:10:59

But, the answer to your question is, yes,

3:11:003:11:03

we do trust ourselves to go,

3:11:033:11:06

to continue to have a form of self-regulation,

3:11:063:11:11

independent regulation.

3:11:113:11:14

We accept, and this didn't apply to the Financial Times,

3:11:143:11:18

we deal with numbers and statistics

3:11:183:11:21

and important things like that, so...

3:11:213:11:24

The kind of behaviour that went on in certain

3:11:243:11:27

sections of the press, notably criminal behaviour by one newspaper,

3:11:273:11:33

is not something that I recognise.

3:11:333:11:35

I'm not even sure whether some of my journalists

3:11:353:11:38

would know how to hack a phone.

3:11:383:11:40

What, in pursuit of fraud, you've never tried that?

3:11:403:11:43

I certainly haven't tried it.

3:11:433:11:45

-So you're not an investigative newspaper?

-No, we very much are.

3:11:453:11:48

And again, if you'd seen our expose of Deutsche Bank today, this week...

3:11:483:11:55

It was a fascinating, fascinating, fascinating 2,000 word article...

3:11:553:12:00

I'm sure we all turned to it first, at breakfast this morning,

3:12:003:12:03

nothing else on our lips!

3:12:033:12:04

..on mark-to-market accounting, but there we are, we'll leave that.

3:12:043:12:07

There is a serious point that went on,

3:12:073:12:10

there was a very serious discussion at Downing Street.

3:12:103:12:14

All the editors were there,

3:12:143:12:16

apart from the editor of the Daily Mail, who had a bereavement.

3:12:163:12:20

But this, I've been an editor now seven years,

3:12:203:12:23

I've never seen this.

3:12:233:12:25

It was really an incredible achievement to herd

3:12:253:12:28

that number of cats into one room and get them to agree huge sections,

3:12:283:12:34

40 out of 47 recommendations of Leveson were adopted that day.

3:12:343:12:39

We are going to embrace Leveson,

3:12:393:12:41

and we are going to come up with a new form of regulation

3:12:413:12:45

which is going to have serious powers for the new regulator

3:12:453:12:49

to investigate newspapers, to enforce with fines if necessary.

3:12:493:12:55

And I think this is a huge, important step forward.

3:12:553:12:58

And I'd like to make one last point.

3:12:583:13:01

One may question the Prime Minister's motives. What...

3:13:013:13:07

Whether he really is so attached to the freedom of the press

3:13:073:13:10

and free speech, or whether he was worried about the tabloid reaction

3:13:103:13:14

if he supported a press law.

3:13:143:13:17

I'm going to come down in favour of the Prime Minister,

3:13:173:13:20

because he recognised that it is not in the interests of this country

3:13:203:13:23

to have a media law, as in South Africa, Hungary, Zimbabwe.

3:13:233:13:30

The world is watching us. We don't need a law.

3:13:303:13:33

APPLAUSE

3:13:333:13:34

OK.

3:13:343:13:36

To which I just raise one point,

3:13:393:13:40

all broadcasting in this country is done under the law.

3:13:403:13:45

-Why not newspapers?

-Now, we...

3:13:453:13:47

You cannot broadcast on radio

3:13:473:13:49

or television without a legal framework.

3:13:493:13:51

You have an obligation to be impartial in your reporting.

3:13:513:13:57

-Don't you?

-We don't, not under the law. And we shouldn't,

3:13:573:14:00

we never have had in the history of the press in this country.

3:14:003:14:04

The last time the press was licensed in this country

3:14:043:14:07

was more than 300 years ago.

3:14:073:14:09

We don't want to go back to an inglorious revolution.

3:14:093:14:13

OK, the man at the very back there. You, sir.

3:14:133:14:15

Lionel says that the press trust the press to regulate themselves.

3:14:153:14:20

But as a citizen, we all trusted the banks to regulate themselves,

3:14:203:14:24

-and look how well that turned out.

-Let's be clear...

3:14:243:14:27

APPLAUSE

3:14:273:14:28

Hold on, Lionel.

3:14:283:14:30

The person right up there at the back there, I can see a hand.

3:14:303:14:33

-There we are.

-The press are regulating themselves, and failing.

3:14:333:14:39

Broadcasters are regulated and they're failing.

3:14:393:14:43

There's something wrong, there's something rotten,

3:14:433:14:47

in what's going on. Why shouldn't the press have,

3:14:473:14:50

why shouldn't the print press have an obligation to be impartial?

3:14:503:14:55

Tim Farron.

3:14:553:14:57

Just to pick up the point that was made at the back a moment ago.

3:14:573:15:01

I think if the... Let's say, for example,

3:15:013:15:04

there was a scandal involving the banks, for instance.

3:15:043:15:07

Let's say, even MPs. Obviously that would never happen, but let's say.

3:15:073:15:11

Let's say there was a scandal

3:15:113:15:12

that affected the police force, for instance.

3:15:123:15:15

And if after a judge-led enquiry it was recommended that

3:15:153:15:18

there should be independent regulation of those outfits,

3:15:183:15:22

and yet, those MPs or bankers or senior police officers said,

3:15:223:15:26

"No, trust us to regulate ourselves,"

3:15:263:15:28

Lionel and all the other editors would lay into those bodies,

3:15:283:15:32

and quite rightly.

3:15:323:15:34

It's important we recognise...

3:15:343:15:35

APPLAUSE

3:15:353:15:37

This is a city that knows better than most, sadly,

3:15:373:15:40

what it's like to be at the sharp end of the abuse of media power.

3:15:403:15:44

There is nothing illegal, sadly, about libelling 96 dead people.

3:15:443:15:48

And that is one of the reasons, one of the examples that,

3:15:483:15:51

when we get to the end of this process,

3:15:513:15:53

we have to look those families in the eye.

3:15:533:15:55

We have to look the family of Milly Dowler and of the McCanns,

3:15:553:15:59

and all those other people who have been victims of press hacking

3:15:593:16:02

in the eye and say, we have done something about this.

3:16:023:16:05

I am very, very pleased the editors have got together

3:16:053:16:07

and responded to Leveson as they have so far.

3:16:073:16:10

And I'm open-minded about it.

3:16:103:16:12

But the bottom line has got to be independent regulation

3:16:123:16:14

so those innocent victims never have to see that repeated again.

3:16:143:16:18

APPLAUSE

3:16:183:16:20

I accept that the press needs to be regulated independently,

3:16:263:16:29

but I don't see...

3:16:293:16:31

But it's been said this week that David Cameron is not

3:16:323:16:35

completely supporting Leveson, and I'm just wondering why.

3:16:353:16:37

Why the Conservative party doesn't support it.

3:16:373:16:40

Lord Justice Leveson said it was essential there was a legal framework

3:16:403:16:43

which we will come to in a second.

3:16:433:16:44

Up to now, Mr Barber has spoken an awful lot of sense,

3:16:443:16:48

-I've been very impressed with what he's said.

-Thank you very much!

3:16:483:16:52

But it has to be acknowledged that three-quarters of the editors that

3:16:523:16:56

you walk through Number Ten, is that they've all got papers in Ireland.

3:16:563:17:00

They're all signed up there to the restrictions which are there

3:17:003:17:04

for the papers in Ireland.

3:17:043:17:05

And I don't see all the papers refusing to have anything

3:17:053:17:09

to do with Southern Ireland. The argument is a nonsense.

3:17:093:17:13

They're signed over there, but they won't sign here. Why?

3:17:133:17:16

Francis Maude, Lord Justice Leveson said it was essential

3:17:163:17:19

there should be legal underpinning, and the Prime Minister said

3:17:193:17:23

everything but the legal underpinning. Why?

3:17:233:17:26

And can the press be trusted in your view to regulate itself?

3:17:263:17:30

I don't think it's the press regulating itself.

3:17:303:17:32

I think everyone agrees there's got to be an independent regulator

3:17:323:17:35

which commands trust. And can that happen?

3:17:353:17:39

I think the jury's out.

3:17:393:17:40

I think the press have got to come together

3:17:403:17:43

and put together a regulator.

3:17:433:17:45

This is what Lord Justice Leveson himself said,

3:17:453:17:48

that the press have got to come together and create

3:17:483:17:51

a regulatory body that commands genuine support.

3:17:513:17:55

And it will have to earn trust.

3:17:553:17:57

But he said essential to have legal underpinning,

3:17:573:18:00

ie a law, not just he and his fellow editors agreeing a system.

3:18:003:18:06

Yes. You see, I'm not persuaded of that.

3:18:063:18:08

I think there has to be statutory underpinning,

3:18:083:18:10

it has to have the backing of law and I think everyone agrees that.

3:18:103:18:15

The newspapers, the publishers, have got to commit themselves

3:18:153:18:18

by contract to accept what this regulator does.

3:18:183:18:23

And it's got to command real support.

3:18:233:18:26

I think there is a job for the press to do to win trust again

3:18:263:18:30

and the jury is out. Lionel and his colleagues will...

3:18:303:18:33

So how do you differ from Leveson?

3:18:333:18:36

You say there has to be statutory underpinning.

3:18:363:18:38

Is that not the same as legal underpinning?

3:18:383:18:40

No, because what has been proposed, and I think is plausible,

3:18:403:18:45

is an arrangement where the newspapers commit themselves

3:18:453:18:49

by a contractual arrangement, which is capable of being

3:18:493:18:52

judged in courts, but which doesn't have the statutory underpinning.

3:18:523:18:57

The danger with statute is that it is open to abuse of power.

3:18:573:19:01

It puts power in the hands of the Government and of Parliament

3:19:013:19:05

and actually, I've suffered at the hands of the press.

3:19:053:19:08

Lots of people have. That's what you do when you go into public life.

3:19:083:19:12

I haven't found it comfortable always,

3:19:123:19:14

but I will absolutely defend the right of the press to be free

3:19:143:19:19

and to have free comment and that independence,

3:19:193:19:22

uncomfortable though it is for those of us in public life,

3:19:223:19:25

is to be defended.

3:19:253:19:26

The woman here on the left, then I'll come to you, Andy.

3:19:263:19:29

APPLAUSE

3:19:293:19:30

There are many, many occupations in this country

3:19:303:19:32

that we don't allow people to practise if they're not

3:19:323:19:35

registered in some way, such as lawyers, doctors, even electricians.

3:19:353:19:39

That's because we do that to protect the public

3:19:393:19:41

from what harm could happen to them.

3:19:413:19:43

I don't see why journalists should be any different from that.

3:19:433:19:46

-Andy Burnham, do you?

-No, I don't.

3:19:463:19:49

You think all journalists should be registered?

3:19:493:19:51

-That's what she said.

-No, I thought...

3:19:513:19:53

-I don't mean registered but they should be subject to regulation.

-Like the GMC.

3:19:533:19:57

To answer the question, yes, I do trust them, but that's what

3:19:573:20:01

Lord Leveson proposed, self-regulation with teeth,

3:20:013:20:04

independent self-regulation.

3:20:043:20:06

Let's be clear, he didn't propose statutory or state regulation

3:20:063:20:09

of the press. Tim's right. I agree with what Tim said.

3:20:093:20:12

If any city knows that the current system where the press is

3:20:123:20:15

a law unto itself, knows the current system can't go on,

3:20:153:20:18

it's surely this city, where 23 years ago

3:20:183:20:21

despicable lies were told about the victims, the survivors of a tragedy.

3:20:213:20:26

A general slur was cast on the supporters

3:20:263:20:29

of Liverpool Football Club and this whole city.

3:20:293:20:32

And for 23 years, we lived under that.

3:20:323:20:35

The press helped put the lid on one of the biggest cover-ups

3:20:353:20:38

this is country has ever seen. It was complicit in that.

3:20:383:20:43

APPLAUSE

3:20:433:20:45

What troubles me about Hillsborough,

3:20:513:20:54

this city boycotted that out-of-control newspaper in result.

3:20:543:20:58

But who was listening? London wasn't listening.

3:20:583:21:01

It took politicians' and celebrities' phones to be hacked

3:21:013:21:03

till someone listened.

3:21:033:21:04

But even for Hillsborough the press has been a double-edged sword.

3:21:043:21:07

I worked with investigative journalists who in the end helped us

3:21:073:21:11

prise the lid back off and expose the cover-ups.

3:21:113:21:15

So the free press is absolutely essential.

3:21:153:21:17

But it's where those ordinary people at the lowest point in their lives,

3:21:173:21:21

the Hillsborough families, the McCanns, the Dowlers.

3:21:213:21:24

They are the people who've been demolished by the press in this

3:21:243:21:27

country when they're at their most vulnerable

3:21:273:21:29

and the press must be forced to make recompense to those people, give them adequate protection.

3:21:293:21:35

That's why what Leveson recommends so tremendously important.

3:21:353:21:38

APPLAUSE OK, Andy, but just to try...

3:21:383:21:41

The key quote from Leveson that the Prime Minister disagreed with

3:21:443:21:48

and said was a Rubicon that we should not cross,

3:21:483:21:50

or ideally will not cross, and these are Leveson's words,

3:21:503:21:54

"it's essential there should be legislation

3:21:543:21:57

"to underpin the self-regulatory system."

3:21:573:21:59

-Do you agree, yes or no?

-Yes, I agree with that.

3:21:593:22:03

You do? OK, fine. Leanne Wood?

3:22:033:22:05

I agree with that as well.

3:22:053:22:07

The Press Complaints Commission has completely failed

3:22:073:22:11

as a voluntary body.

3:22:113:22:14

The serious transgressors were allowed to opt out of the system.

3:22:143:22:19

The problem for me is I'm less concerned actually

3:22:193:22:22

with the celebrities and even the politicians,

3:22:223:22:25

but the ordinary people who've no recourse.

3:22:253:22:28

The only way to challenge a newspaper that has printed

3:22:283:22:32

lies about you is to take them through the courts

3:22:323:22:35

through the libel laws

3:22:353:22:36

and for most people of ordinary income

3:22:363:22:39

that's completely impossible.

3:22:393:22:41

So I support the Leveson recommendations

3:22:413:22:45

to protect the public.

3:22:453:22:47

But also to protect freedom of expression.

3:22:473:22:50

-That's an important point as well.

-OK.

-I have a quick point.

-Be very, very quick.

3:22:503:22:55

It's about the Hillsborough. Andy deserves enormous credit.

3:22:553:22:59

He campaigned vigorously on Hillsborough to expose

3:22:593:23:04

a lasting injustice.

3:23:043:23:05

And he deserves enormous credit for what he did.

3:23:053:23:08

APPLAUSE

3:23:083:23:10

And I just make this point.

3:23:183:23:20

You were able to do that, which you did brilliantly and bravely,

3:23:203:23:24

-because of your right of free speech, and freedom of expression.

-I accept that.

3:23:243:23:28

And we have to guard that really carefully.

3:23:283:23:31

Nobody should do this lightly.

3:23:313:23:33

Every politician who supports the enactment of Leveson's

3:23:333:23:37

proposals on press regulation should feel uncomfortable about it,

3:23:373:23:42

but we also have to remember that there are threats to the free press

3:23:423:23:46

from within the press.

3:23:463:23:48

Two of my colleagues, for example,

3:23:483:23:50

have had their regular columns pulled this week

3:23:503:23:52

by their separate newspapers because they were too pro-Leveson.

3:23:523:23:57

This is what we get sometimes, when you see a press

3:23:573:24:01

which is very, very powerful.

3:24:013:24:04

The suppression of the truth does not always come from politicians.

3:24:043:24:08

It can come from extremely wealthy magnates who own vast numbers of newspapers.

3:24:083:24:13

APPLAUSE

3:24:133:24:15

Who owns you? Do wealthy people own you?

3:24:183:24:22

-It wasn't your paper.

-No, we're just owned by someone called Pearson.

3:24:223:24:25

-Very simple.

-Let's...

-Just one little point.

3:24:253:24:29

In the next week or so, you'll see proposals from the editors,

3:24:293:24:34

from the journalistic profession,

3:24:343:24:36

which will support what I said about the industry embracing Leveson

3:24:363:24:42

and answering a lot of the questions people have

3:24:423:24:46

about responsible behaviour, the ordinary people

3:24:463:24:50

who are not well-treated by the press.

3:24:503:24:53

There will be some serious meat in proposals in the next few days.

3:24:533:24:57

Right, well, we will hold our breath. Or we won't...

3:24:573:25:00

No, we WILL hold our breath!

3:25:003:25:01

Thank you, David, for that resounding vote of confidence(!)

3:25:013:25:05

Edward Lamb, please.

3:25:053:25:06

When will the new pay-what-you-want tax rule be rolled out to

3:25:063:25:10

the rest of the business world?

3:25:103:25:12

"When will the new pay-what-you-want tax rule be rolled out..."

3:25:123:25:16

APPLAUSE

3:25:163:25:17

".. to the rest of the business world",

3:25:213:25:23

or indeed to all of us, maybe, just make voluntary contributions.

3:25:233:25:26

Starbucks, obviously at the heart of this.

3:25:263:25:28

The managing director has said they will now pay a significant

3:25:283:25:31

amount of tax, regardless of whether the company is profitable.

3:25:313:25:34

They'll change all their arrangements

3:25:343:25:36

and if they've made a loss,

3:25:363:25:37

they'll still pay £10 million this year and £10 million next year.

3:25:373:25:41

It's the weirdest thing.

3:25:413:25:42

Francis Maude understands all this, what is going on?

3:25:423:25:46

Well, I think Starbucks have woken up and smelled the coffee. And...

3:25:463:25:49

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

3:25:493:25:51

And I think what was significant, this was people power actually.

3:25:553:26:00

They are a consumer brand, a retail brand,

3:26:003:26:03

and the public were making their feelings known.

3:26:033:26:05

People who work hard and pay their taxes actually deeply resented

3:26:053:26:10

the fact that here was a multinational that was

3:26:103:26:13

avoiding paying tax, although it was operating in this country.

3:26:133:26:18

Why didn't you make them pay the tax?

3:26:183:26:20

We are, for the first time, introducing

3:26:203:26:22

a general anti-abuse provision into the law,

3:26:223:26:25

which has never been done before.

3:26:253:26:28

So if you have a phony arrangement like every cup of coffee,

3:26:283:26:31

we have to pay Holland to serve it here in Liverpool

3:26:313:26:34

and therefore we don't have to pay tax - you'll change it?

3:26:343:26:37

-They've already done it in Scotland.

-What it will do is introduce arrangements so that

3:26:373:26:42

if there is something which is plainly artificial, an arrangement

3:26:423:26:45

which is clearly artificial, designed for tax avoidance...

3:26:453:26:48

I thought that's what the Inland Revenue did all the time!

3:26:483:26:50

This is an artificial arrangement, you can't get away with it.

3:26:503:26:53

What they do, consistently - four things which George Osborne

3:26:533:26:57

announced yesterday which contributed to this -

3:26:573:26:59

they're constantly blocking loopholes,

3:26:593:27:02

they're looking for loopholes, finding them and blocking them.

3:27:023:27:05

-That's what's consistently been done.

-OK.

3:27:053:27:07

But you're always behind the fair.

3:27:073:27:09

What the general anti-abuse provision will do

3:27:093:27:12

is enable them to look proactively at artificial arrangements

3:27:123:27:16

and ensure that the substance is what's properly taxed.

3:27:163:27:20

This is guilty conscience. This isn't paying money they have to pay.

3:27:203:27:23

Everybody knows it was legal up to now,

3:27:233:27:26

doing what they're doing, and they say they'll pay 10 million

3:27:263:27:29

this year and 10 million next year, even if they make a loss.

3:27:293:27:32

It's weird! LAUGHTER

3:27:323:27:34

What I think they're saying is that they're going to

3:27:343:27:36

stop claiming some deductions

3:27:363:27:39

which may or may not have been artificial, in order to avoid tax.

3:27:393:27:43

-Any coffee drinkers here?

-And that's well for them to do.

3:27:433:27:47

The woman up there on the left. Yes, you.

3:27:473:27:49

They've not paid it for the last three years.

3:27:493:27:52

-Is the 10 million too little?

-Well, that's a good point.

3:27:523:27:57

-What do you think?

-To view tax as a voluntary donation given

3:27:573:28:02

out of the goodness of their heart

3:28:023:28:05

is quite an extraordinary view of life.

3:28:053:28:07

I just wonder what small British businesses will think

3:28:073:28:10

when they see this kind of behaviour.

3:28:103:28:14

We hear all this stuff about playing by the rules from the Government,

3:28:143:28:17

but they'd better get these people

3:28:173:28:19

playing by the rules for a start, that would help.

3:28:193:28:21

It has echoes for me of other things we've seen in Parliament,

3:28:213:28:24

in banking - an elite setting their own rules.

3:28:243:28:27

It's not going to go down well with the public at all.

3:28:273:28:30

A bit rich coming from you.

3:28:303:28:32

How long has Starbucks been operating in this country?

3:28:323:28:35

Ten years and they haven't paid any...

3:28:353:28:37

And how many years of that was a Labour Chancellor in power?

3:28:373:28:40

APPLAUSE

3:28:403:28:41

-I'm making more of a general point.

-I bet you are!

3:28:443:28:49

LAUGHTER

3:28:493:28:51

We've all woken up to the issue, as you were saying in your question.

3:28:513:28:55

I think the point is that it's global brands, multinationals,

3:28:553:28:58

who can play one bit of their empire off against another.

3:28:583:29:02

"Holland's getting the royalties..." That's the problem.

3:29:023:29:05

Margaret Hodge has done a brilliant job exposing this

3:29:053:29:07

in the Public Accounts Committee.

3:29:073:29:09

It seems to me the Government

3:29:093:29:11

does now have to go after this issue very strongly.

3:29:113:29:14

There's about £32 billion of uncollected tax from these people

3:29:143:29:17

and we need to get finding that money, rather than going

3:29:173:29:21

after people at the very bottom who are so-called cheating on benefits.

3:29:213:29:26

-Let's get after these people.

-You, sir.

3:29:263:29:28

APPLAUSE

3:29:283:29:29

I set up a company to try to pay my way through university

3:29:313:29:34

and it's a real kick in the teeth

3:29:343:29:35

to see these multi-million dollar corporations paying nothing,

3:29:353:29:39

or even offering money

3:29:393:29:40

while I'm having to pay most of the money that I earn out of my company.

3:29:403:29:44

It's a real kick up the backside.

3:29:443:29:45

-You set up the company and made a profit?

-Yes.

3:29:453:29:48

I'm a full-time student and to pay my way through university,

3:29:483:29:50

I run this company. It's just quite harsh

3:29:503:29:53

to see these corporations offering money,

3:29:533:29:55

when really they should be getting it

3:29:553:29:57

taken away from them if they're operating here.

3:29:573:29:59

OK, and you, sir, behind. Three behind.

3:29:593:30:02

I think if you look at Google and Amazon,

3:30:023:30:04

where they don't have any competition, unlike Starbucks.

3:30:043:30:07

Starbucks has made this decision cos they have a lot of

3:30:073:30:10

competition on the marketplace and know people will go elsewhere.

3:30:103:30:13

They go to the competitors.

3:30:133:30:14

They can go to bookshops instead of Amazon.

3:30:143:30:16

-Yeah, absolutely, but I think...

-Still a few!

3:30:163:30:19

LAUGHTER

3:30:193:30:20

But I think Amazon is a massive monopoly, as is Google. They know they don't have the same threats.

3:30:203:30:25

A quick point - this is true of our Government and the current one.

3:30:253:30:28

Governments get too close to big businesses.

3:30:283:30:30

This Government has been too close to Google.

3:30:303:30:32

All governments need to step back from the press, from big business

3:30:323:30:36

-and do the right thing. That was true of us, too.

-Leanne Wood.

3:30:363:30:40

I don't think anybody should be allowed to decide

3:30:403:30:43

how much tax they pay. That should be set out clearly

3:30:433:30:46

and the rules should be fair across the board.

3:30:463:30:49

There needs to be some sort of international agreement

3:30:493:30:53

on tax avoidance.

3:30:533:30:54

I'm not sure how much money we're talking here about

3:30:543:30:56

because HMRC themselves say that there is £32.2 billion

3:30:563:31:02

in tax avoidance every year.

3:31:023:31:04

But the TUC say it's £120 billion a year.

3:31:043:31:08

It'd be useful to know what we're dealing with.

3:31:083:31:12

But surely one of the big problems is the cuts to the staff

3:31:123:31:14

who are meant to be going out collecting the taxes.

3:31:143:31:18

While the Labour Party were in government

3:31:183:31:21

there were 12,500 people, HMRC staff, laid off between 2008-2010,

3:31:213:31:29

and a further 5,000 staff have been laid off by the Tories

3:31:293:31:34

and the Liberal Democrats between 2010-2012.

3:31:343:31:37

But this wouldn't have affected Starbucks. You could see them there.

3:31:373:31:41

You don't need 1,500 people to tell Starbucks.

3:31:413:31:44

Starbucks is one example.

3:31:443:31:48

Clearly, because they are a multinational corporation,

3:31:483:31:51

they can play these rules off against each other

3:31:513:31:53

in different countries,

3:31:533:31:55

which is why you need an international agreement.

3:31:553:31:58

But in general, what the Government is doing with its austerity

3:31:583:32:02

programme is cutting at the bottom,

3:32:023:32:04

while allowing the rich corporations and individuals to avoid paying tax.

3:32:043:32:09

And those tax loopholes should be closed down, in my view,

3:32:093:32:13

and more people should be taken on in HMRC, with experience.

3:32:133:32:19

You've taken on temporary staff with limited experience

3:32:193:32:22

and laid off people who can do complex investigations

3:32:223:32:26

which can bring the money and...

3:32:263:32:28

Point made, thank you. The man up there at the back. APPLAUSE

3:32:283:32:31

I'm sure the panel take measures to minimise their tax liability.

3:32:313:32:36

This is what the companies have done.

3:32:363:32:38

It's the rules that need toughening.

3:32:383:32:42

The loopholes need to be plugged.

3:32:423:32:43

APPLAUSE

3:32:433:32:45

May be the Government should employ the tax advisers

3:32:473:32:50

of multinationals to find loopholes and claim money back from taxpayers.

3:32:503:32:55

-Poacher turned gamekeeper.

-Yeah.

-Lionel Barber.

3:32:553:32:58

Let's be clear, the company has not committed a crime.

3:32:583:33:02

Not even the Government has said what it's been doing is illegal.

3:33:023:33:06

What is important...

3:33:063:33:07

There's a parallel between the comedian, Jimmy Carr,

3:33:073:33:11

who if you remember, it was reported

3:33:113:33:13

he'd been engaged in very aggressive tax management

3:33:133:33:18

and not paying a lot of tax.

3:33:183:33:19

So he said, "I haven't done anything wrong."

3:33:193:33:23

But with the public outrage, he changed his mind.

3:33:233:33:26

This is what's happened with Starbucks.

3:33:263:33:29

They have understood that their duty is not only

3:33:293:33:34

to their shareholders - they operate in a community.

3:33:343:33:38

And it is really not acceptable to engage in this

3:33:383:33:41

kind of aggressive tax avoidance,

3:33:413:33:44

when they've made plenty of money, albeit not in this country.

3:33:443:33:48

They have the weird coffee bean manoeuvre,

3:33:483:33:51

which David Dimbleby alluded to, which I don't understand.

3:33:513:33:54

The royalty payments - that's allowed under EU law,

3:33:543:33:58

those transfers, so they've seen sense.

3:33:583:34:01

I think the broader question, and something

3:34:013:34:05

which really shouldn't be forgotten,

3:34:053:34:07

is that, yes, people power has worked,

3:34:073:34:10

but who will really suffer in the event of a further consumer boycott?

3:34:103:34:15

The answer is, those people who've taken risks to

3:34:153:34:18

take on work as franchisee of Starbucks.

3:34:183:34:22

They're losing money, they may go out of work. This is a problem.

3:34:223:34:26

We had someone in our audience

3:34:263:34:28

a fortnight ago actually who'd got a franchise.

3:34:283:34:30

The money that's been accumulated is in Seattle,

3:34:303:34:35

the home of Starbucks, not in this country.

3:34:353:34:37

Tim Farron, have to be brief, we're almost out of time.

3:34:373:34:40

What is taxation? It's the subscription charge

3:34:403:34:44

for living in a civilised society.

3:34:443:34:46

Starbucks benefit hugely from living and operating in our society.

3:34:463:34:50

Their staff are educated by us, protected by our police.

3:34:503:34:53

Those of us that end up with rotten teeth by drinking their frappuccinos

3:34:533:34:57

get their teeth looked after on the NHS... I'm a tea drinker, what do I know?

3:34:573:35:00

The point is this - the indictment on our society and on government

3:35:003:35:05

of all colours is that we've even got to this situation

3:35:053:35:08

in the first place. We should stop rattling on about it

3:35:083:35:11

and slagging off Starbucks

3:35:113:35:12

and just fix the tax code and stop this happening again.

3:35:123:35:15

APPLAUSE

3:35:153:35:17

Right.

3:35:183:35:20

That's it for tonight.

3:35:233:35:24

We're in Bristol next week, the last one of the year.

3:35:243:35:27

On our panel, Will Self, the author, and the editor of The Times,

3:35:273:35:31

having had the editor of the Financial Times, James Harding.

3:35:313:35:35

If you want to come, the website address is there

3:35:353:35:38

or you can call 0330 123 99 88.

3:35:383:35:41

Thanks to you, panellists.

3:35:413:35:43

Thanks to you, all this large audience in Liverpool,

3:35:433:35:47

for coming along for Question Time.

3:35:473:35:49

Until next Thursday, from all of us here, good night.

3:35:493:35:51

APPLAUSE

3:35:513:35:52

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd

3:36:183:36:19

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Liverpool. On the panel: Francis Maude MP, minister for the cabinet office; Andy Burnham MP, Labour's shadow health secretary; Tim Farron MP, president of the Liberal Democrats; Lionel Barber, editor of the Financial Times; and Leanne Wood AM, leader of Plaid Cymru.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS