31/01/2013 Question Time


31/01/2013

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$:/STARTFEED. Tonight, we are in the splendid Town Hall of Lancaster,

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Good evening and welcome to our audience here in Lancaster and to

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our panel, the Foreign Office minister, Sayeeda Warsi, Labour's

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former Home Secretary, Alan Johnson, the Guardian columnist, Zoe

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Williams, the novelist and writer for the Spectator, James Delingpole,

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and the comedian, Dom Joly. Good. Let's get cracking. The

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questions provided by our audience are not known to our panellists

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until they hear them read out. The first one from Ahsanul Haq, please?

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Is reducing the travelling time from Manchester to London worth �30

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billion? The expenditure on the new rail

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system of �30 billion. Is it worth it just to reduce the travelling

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time to Manchester from London, Alan Johnson? If it was just that,

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maybe not, but it's about much more than that. Listen, there hasn't

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been a new railway built towards the north of England for well over

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100 years. In fact, the only new rail line anywhere in the last 150

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years was high speed one which is now very successful incidentally.

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This is about capacity. Yes, it increases the speed at which you

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can travel North and that's very important, but our creeking railway

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system, that infrastructure was put in, the foresight was there to do

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it 200 years ago, we need to have the foresight to recognise that we

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have a 19th century rail system in a 21st century economy. At the time

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of Dr Beeching, those of you old enough might remember, in the early

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60, it was felt that we had to manage decline on the railways.

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They boomed and will boom even more if we can ensure we have the

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correct capacity. Travelling time is the thing? Travelling time, yes.

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Does it matter if you get there that much faster? It's going to be

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another hour and eight minutes to get to Manchester. It will decrease

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the time it takes to get to Leeds. This is important stuff and from

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then on further north. But the main issue is about capacity. We don't

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get capacity in, we'll spend that much money repairing an an te

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Kuwaited Victorian system when other countries are well ahead in

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bringing their rail services up-to- date.

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-- ant Kuwaited. Rather than spending bills on a new railway

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infrastructure, surely it's better to spend the money sorting out the

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current rolling stock and focusing on the fact that there are people

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in this country commuting to work spending thousands of pounds on

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train fares to stand all the way there and all the way back.

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Joly, do you agree with that? APPLAUSE

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Absolutely. I'm slightly worried because James Delingpole is

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agreeing with me. I live in the Cotswolds and go from Kemble to

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London. As far as I can work out, I'm the sort of person that turns

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up on the day, I don't get a season ticket because I don't work

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regularly and when I turn up, I think it's the most expensive

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railway journey in the world. I love the fact we'll get a fast

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railway. I've been to Japan and France but it's all over really,

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it's kind of like we are investing in the Walkman when the iPod's

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already going. In a big country, over 400 miles say, something like

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the high speed trains are important. But in England I don't think we

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need them. Invest in the railway stock we've already got and get it

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back with a company that holds the whole thing together and make it

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work properly. It's crazy. APPLAUSE

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It also strikes me that it's 20 years too late because

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telecommunications have moved on so fast that most people can now do

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things by their computers. They don't need to catch a train.

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Sayeeda Warsi, it doesn't seem that popular with this household, �1,000

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a household spent on this? It's not just the journey time between

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London and the north, it's the journey time between the northern

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cities. Leeds to Birmingham, that journey time will be halved. If you

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take the times from Leeds to Manchester, Birmingham to

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Manchester, it will be the interconnectivity and it can't be

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right that it's been over 100 years since there's been any major rail

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infrastructure in the north of England. This will have huge

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benefits for connectivity and the economy. We are in the north here

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in Lancaster and you saw universal applause for the point Dom Joly

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made that you can do better things with the money? Dom made important

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points about pricing and rolling stock and the quality and lots of

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important points. I also think there's never been a major

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infrastructure project, estren when the Victorians were building

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railways, in fact a doctor at the time said we must haven't fast

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trains because it would stop people from breathing within the trains --

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even when the Victorians were building railways. On Great First

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Western, they're so full, some timeious can't breathe. There are

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questions about the environment and whether it's good value for money.

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If we are concerned when ten or 20 years behind Japan, we can't sit

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here in ten years' time saying we didn't do anything. We are 40 years

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behind, aren't we? The north will see the benefits. I'm hugely for it.

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It will be 20 years from now before it's online so it's 40 years behind.

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James Delingpole? We've got the political class represented by Alan

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and Sayeeda. It's going to cost us �billion. I'm sure that's an

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underestimate -- �30 billion. I was on the train on the way here. There

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was an annoying person sitting opposite me on his mobile... It

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wasn't you! He was running his office on his mobile, doing

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executive boast speak sounding like David Brent briefing his staff,

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buoying up his sales team. It was very annoying but this is how

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people operate these days, using the train for the Internet and

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stuff. They use the train as their office? Yes, it doesn't matter if

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they can get from Manchester to London in ten seconds. Why do you

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say political class want this and others don't, as you put it? We are

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stuck with the failing economy and they think that you have these big

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projects which are going to improve the economy magically. Do you awe

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gree? I agree with Dom -- agree. We should upgrade the rolling stock. I

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believe it's what the people want. APPLAUSE Perhaps before we start

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spending such a vast amount of money on reducing travelling times

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between Manchester and London, we should spend some money on creating

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some business in the north of England to get this part of the

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country back to work. APPLAUSE

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The woman in yellow? This is just going to make matters

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worse. It could drain away jobs from the north because it would

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make it faster for people to get from the north-west down to London.

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What we need is investment in this region. At the moment, it takes you

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nearly as long to get from Lancaster to Liverpool as it does

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to get from Lancaster to London. And what about, you know, the north

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doesn't finish at Manchester. It actually barely starts.

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APPLAUSE Zoe Williams? I was always in

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favour of HS2 instinctively because Lord Astor said it was a horrible

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idea devised by northern MPs because they were jealous of the

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Chilterns. They took that to heart and said we'll have it in the north

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and everyone can have their landscape spoilt. That's gone on to

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get cross party support for it. The fact is, nobody ever likes new

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infrastructure, but nobody ever, with the exception of the

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Millennium Dome complains about it Millennium Dome complains about it

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once it's been built. You have got to, on some level, think about the

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up sides, you know. It's always very easy to see the downsides of

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everything, but actually, 100,000 jobs wouldn't go amiss and that

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would be like investing in the north. You reckon it would be

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100,000 jobs? That's the estimate. What do you think? I think if we

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don't invest in the infrastructure now, we'll have to invest in it at

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some point in the future. If the Government doesn't invest, a

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Government in the future is going to have to and sooner or later the

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Victorian railways will break down, they won't work and there'll be a

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point where you can't fix them any more. But this project only deals

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with the certain places it's going to because it's so high speed, it

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only stops about four places in the country. What about everyone else

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who can't get on those trains? APPLAUSE

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The whole point of this is, you can repair the current infrastructure

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but it doesn't give you the additional capacity. The whole

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point of this is you move people around more quickly around cities

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and stop them taking short haul flights to Manchester and Leeds et

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cetera incidentally. At the same time, you can then improve the

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current infrastructure. Your problem that you said Dom and the

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lady there was absolutely right. This is not, we do the High Speed

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Two and don't do anything about rolling stock, we do the high speed

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do, we don't do anything about businesss in the north and most

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people who're in business tell me a crucial aspect of business is

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relocating in the north is the travel distances. Of course, the

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north is much further than Manchester, but once you get the

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connection to Manchester and Leeds, you get the connections further to

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the rest of the country much more quickly too. Can I ask you what I

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said Sayeeda. Are you surprised there's almost universal hostility

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here? Yes because I've always respected the intelligence and

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goodwill of the people. LAUGHTER

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One last point from the woman there?

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I want to agree with Alan Johnson because I'm from Hull as well.

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you come over from there tonight? Houpbgs did it take you?! It takes

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four hours to get home from Lancaster. With the fast

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connections, it allows continual improvements. There's not going to

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be a fast line between Lancaster and Hull? Oh, there will be. You

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come to Question Time and get your way with the man in charge. The man

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who wants to be back in charge. Grey beard wants you back in the

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Shadow Cabinet. I didn't read that. What is your answer? It's in

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tomorrow's paper. I'll talk to Mr Dimbleby about it! Just before the

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next question, I ought to have said this, you are all here to talk

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about it, but if you want to join the debate at home, you can join us,

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:12:19.:12:20.

We have our guest panellist and tonight it's Jonathan Isaby of the

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Taxpayers' Alliance and you can access what he says at the extra

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guest. You can also text your own comments.

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Sorry, Roger, let's have your question, Roger Preston? Are we

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wise to become involved in another Islamist struggle in Mali?

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Sayeeda Warsi? Yes. I think this week there's been a number of

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questions raised about what it is that we are doing in Mali, how that

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fits into the wider Sahel region, will it be another Afghanistan?

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These are valid questions, but these are questions which we ask

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when we sit around the national security council table or the

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Cabinet table. Can I try and put into context what is happening in

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Mali first. The extremist terrorists who, for the last 12

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months, have been moving forward towards the capital, have been

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taking over populated areas, have concerned the international

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community. Last year, the United Nations passed a resolution in

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which it said an international force or an African force supported

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by the international community would go in to give support to the

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Malian forces. Unfortunately, things changed quickly on the

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ground and the extremists moved quickly towards the capital. At

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that point, the Malian government asked the French and of course

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there's a big connection with the French because of the clonian

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history, they came in, and for the last week they have had real

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success in pushing the terrorists back out. That's the back story,

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but are we wise to become involved is the question? The way in which

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we have become involve sod far is by first of all providing

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logistical support in the form of two aircrafts which were ferrying

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items from France to Mali, but also from other African countries to

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Mali as well. Now 300 troops training people? The troops that

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have been spoken about are two separate ones, part of a European

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Union training mission and secondly a set of troops as part of trainers

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for the African Union forces who'll provide the security. I think the

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only way I can describe this is, this is like Somalia, not

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Afghanistan. Let me explain what I mean by that. In smarlkpwhra, it

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was felt that the international community should bring to the table

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what they were good at -- Somalia. We had a conference last year,

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helped with the political reconciliation. We have a

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Government in Somalia which has legitimacy across large parts of

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Somalia after decades of famine and effectively after being a failed

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state. The African Union forces supported by the UN provided the

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international community which has come in with a developmental aid.

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The issue of extremist terrorism is an issue for the whole

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international community. We therefore have to deal with it as

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an international community. Not as the western forces against Islam or

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the western forces against the east, this has got to be about all of us

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acknowledging that we cannot allow ungoverned spaces to exist around

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the world where these extremists can get together and then start to

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be threats to their own populations but to us as well and our interests

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James Delingpole? David Cameron saw what Blair did in Sierra Leone and

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thought, "I'll have a bit of that." He's just been in Libya, hasn't he,

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getting a bit of adulation from the Libyan leadership. I'm not sure

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that we should be getting involved in these quicksand wars. They start

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off, you send in a few advisers. These things tend to escalate. Fine,

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if that is what you want to do, have a plan. But don't do it at a

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time when you are reducing your Armed Forces. I think the Armed

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Forces' budget has been cut by 8% since the coalition took power. If

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you really want to go and play this game of fighting many wars all over

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the world - Afghanistan is not a good example - you have to have a

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military budget to do it. Do you think it is inevitable that things

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grow? Or could it be - I don't know what 330 training soldiers do. Are

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they SAS people saying, "Go round this side and attack those people"?

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Look at what happened in Vietnam. The military advisers went in. Then

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you have force protection. Then you get attacks on the personnel which

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escalates it further. The woman up there? Given the point that's just

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been made, and the point that was made by Sayeeda Warsi about the

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unruly areas and the terrorism threats, is it wise to be cutting

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5,000 troops? Would we have enough armed support to protect the United

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Kingdom? Alan Johnson? Well, in terms of the original question...

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And... The Prime Minister is wise to go to North Africa with the Head

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of MI6 and talk about working together, sharing intelligence,

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that is a very wise thing to do. He was unwise to say the other week in

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Parliament that there will be only, the number of troops involved would

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only be tens and the following week put it into hundreds. He was unwise

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to use the kind of hyperbole about this being a war on terror, he

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almost used those terms, just as Obama is saying this is the end of

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the ten-year period. This is not what the world was like ten or 15

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years ago. Things have changed. We need to change the political

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situation in Mali. It is a military dictatorship. His words were, "This

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will require a response that is about years, even decades." You

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think that is hyperbole? I think it is. Can I say one thing? The thing

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about Mali, it is a very poor country. America subsidises its

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cotton farmers to the tune of $5 billion a year. In America, they

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have 25,000 cotton farmers. That subsidy depresss the price of

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cotton and ten million West African cotton workers who produce good

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quality cotton, cannot sell it on the open market and they cannot

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trade their way out of poverty. There is another dimension to this

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as well as the security dimension. OK. You, Sir? Yes, I think this is

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a much bigger issue than just Algeria or Mali. I'm moving to

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Nigeria in two weeks to start work there. Western Sahara is ungoverned.

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What you need is for the Arab Spring to push through throughout

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the Continent and have good governance throughout Africa. You

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have states that have been in power for 20 or 30 years. You can't have

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people impoverished as they are which leads to rebellion and

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terrorism. What do you think of the Government's response? It is a tity

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part of the solution. The person -- It is a tiny part of the solution.

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The person in the second row? Islamist jihadist terrorist in

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Syria we were told to support them and their freedom fighters. It is

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hypocrisy. Zoe Williams? Look, the French have gone in. They are

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fighting an enemy which they say is Islamic fundamentalism. But it is a

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parasitic element leeching off the the other. The danger for the

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French is, they can think they have taken a city, the rebels look like

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they have disappeared and they are back the next week. People have

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already been shot by forces which the French thought they had

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defeated. What should have been done? This is it. They can't stay

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there forever. Should they have gone at all? They couldn't say no.

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It is their Falklands. Should we be there? In terms of us being there,

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we have to have a military alliance with the French. We are the only

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two nuclear powers in Europe. We have to either support one another

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or not bother having a military. Dom Joly? I'm astonished that the

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French are in military action, finally! LAUGHTER

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It's been such a long time. I'm tempted to say Waterloo was the

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last time! The last time was probably when they went into

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Algeria. Sir Peter Tapsell said it in Prime Minister's Question Time

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yesterday. It was the last time the French were in any serious action.

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They brought about the end of the Republic and they had to withdraw.

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That is what is going to happen in all these places. What was the big

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headline - Timbuktu taken without a shot!? The size of that place is

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insane. You have Niger, Chad, it is unwinnable. I don't know what we

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are doing there. APPLAUSE I think for people like me, Nick Clegg,

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Andrew Lansley, many of us who sit around - Ken Clark - who sit around

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that Cabinet table. We were anti- war. I took to the streets over the

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war in Iraq. I had huge reservations about what we were

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about to do in Afghanistan. We have an international responsibility.

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The answer to every dispute is not Western troops on the ground. It is

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not about Western combat troops. It is about as an international

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community working through and working out what we can bring to

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the table and how we can help these countries, which are ungoverned

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spaces, where there are deep-rooted issues around poverty, territory,

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about disputes around land. It is important that we work as an

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international community, but with regional support. Where governments

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and Alan would probably accept this - where mistakes were made in the

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past was that this was seen as a Western war against terror, Western

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interventionism. This is not like that this is about saying to the

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local African Union, we will support you as an international

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community, we will help you with training, we will help you with

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resourcing. You have to manage the security. What we are good at,

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whether that is intelligence- gathering, development work, work

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in relation to political reconciliation, we need to be at

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the table. This is all our problem and we need to resolve it together.

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Dom Joly, does that change your view? No. Briefly? Can I suggest

:23:45.:23:51.

instead of wasting 0.7% of our GDP on pointless aid ventures and

:23:51.:23:55.

instead of wasting the lives of our service personnel, it would be much

:23:55.:24:01.

better to engage in trade with Africa. I think part of the problem

:24:01.:24:06.

is that it is not just caused by Islamism. It is caused by poverty.

:24:06.:24:10.

People need a better standard of living. It is frustration that

:24:10.:24:14.

makes them, you know, take the money to fight for various causes.

:24:14.:24:20.

We should be engaging in trade. APPLAUSE One more point. The man in

:24:20.:24:25.

the first row? I think there's definitely a need to instil some

:24:25.:24:28.

political stability in Mali, however I think we are going about

:24:28.:24:34.

it the wrong way. I mean, as far as I know, the UK has set no exit date

:24:34.:24:39.

for taking its troops out of the area and the style with which the

:24:39.:24:45.

Islamists fight almost guerrilla like, they won't stay in large open

:24:45.:24:50.

spaces like Timbuktu. It will be a continual drain on the UK's

:24:50.:24:54.

resources until we can no longer support it. Thank you very much.

:24:54.:25:03.

APPLAUSE We must move on to something nearer home. Helen

:25:03.:25:09.

Rimmer? With the Cumbria vote against the nuclear waste dump, is

:25:09.:25:13.

it time the Government backed renewables instead? Cumbria had

:25:13.:25:17.

been the last place in Britain that was considering having nuclear

:25:17.:25:21.

waste, decided this week it wouldn't go any further and wasn't

:25:21.:25:25.

going to have nuclear waste. Cumbria is due north of where we

:25:25.:25:32.

are here. Is that the end of nuclear? Should they go back to

:25:32.:25:36.

renewables? Zoe Williams? Well, I think there was always going to be

:25:36.:25:41.

a problem with the nuclear storage in Cumbria. If the money and the

:25:41.:25:44.

promises weren't enough, the Cumbrians would say, "Why would we

:25:44.:25:50.

take this blot on the landscape?" If the money and the promises got

:25:50.:25:55.

too much, you would say, "What is the catch?" I would think -

:25:55.:25:58.

obviously, I'm in favour of renewables. We have got three

:25:58.:26:02.

problems. Are you in favour of nuclear? I'm not as much in favour

:26:02.:26:05.

of nuclear. I'm not anti-nuclear. You can't tell people to have

:26:05.:26:09.

nuclear waste. What do you do with the nuclear waste? Exactly. You

:26:10.:26:13.

keep the industries that people are going to accept. I don't think it

:26:13.:26:19.

will be nuclear. You can abandon nuclear? You can abandon it or wait

:26:19.:26:22.

until you have a better storage system. That was the ironic thing -

:26:22.:26:26.

they were making a million year promise for how long it was going

:26:26.:26:30.

to take. It will look different in 20 years to how it does now. How do

:26:30.:26:34.

you make a problem for a million years? Where do you store it?

:26:34.:26:39.

do you store it while you are waiting for your million-year

:26:39.:26:42.

lease? I can't believe anyone turned this down(!) If someone says,

:26:42.:26:48.

"We have a whole lot of nuclear waste, any chance we could bury it

:26:48.:26:52.

under you?" Why would you say no? The Lake District has missed out.

:26:52.:26:56.

If it leaked, you would have a fantastic new tourist attraction

:26:56.:27:01.

which would be the glowing lakes of the district! LAUGHTER My option is

:27:01.:27:10.

- I'm already in so much trouble in Weston-super-Mare - they have a

:27:10.:27:17.

huge beach! The person up there? Perhaps they can combine the two

:27:17.:27:24.

and bury underneath the new H2 road link? This is a serious issue.

:27:24.:27:27.

Sayeeda Warsi, what is the Government going to do about it?

:27:27.:27:33.

You have nowhere for your nuclear waste and you are committed to

:27:33.:27:36.

nuclear? You can't bury nuclear waste in a community if that

:27:36.:27:43.

community doesn't want it there. We have to be prepared to accept that.

:27:43.:27:50.

I'm not an ideologue in relation to how we get our energy. Either we

:27:50.:27:56.

use less and none of us are prepared to do that. And the North

:27:56.:27:59.

Sea oil is going down. If you look at the tragedy that's happened in

:27:59.:28:04.

Algeria a couple of weeks ago, we can't rely upon overseas sources

:28:04.:28:09.

for energy which are stable all the time.? We have to have a whole

:28:09.:28:13.

diverse range of energy. What do you do about nuclear? Some of that

:28:13.:28:16.

is nuclear. What do you do about nuclear if you can't dump the

:28:16.:28:20.

waste? This is a business decision. People who get involved in nuclear

:28:20.:28:24.

power have to work with communities to make sure that they can find a

:28:24.:28:27.

solution to these issues. There's many challenges with wind farms,

:28:27.:28:31.

there are many challenges with offshore and onshore wind farms. We

:28:31.:28:35.

know the challenges that happen when people try and put them up.

:28:35.:28:38.

Are you saying the challenge is dangerous? There's divided opinions

:28:38.:28:44.

about wind farms. You are not saying it is as dangerous except

:28:44.:28:48.

for the one that had collapsed this week? You are not saying nuclear

:28:48.:28:52.

waste is on a par with wind farms? Of course, I'm not. What do you do

:28:53.:28:56.

about nuclear? What I am saying is as far as local communities are

:28:56.:28:59.

concerned, whether that is a wind farm, or whether that is nuclear,

:28:59.:29:02.

or whether that is any other form of energy that's been built in

:29:02.:29:05.

their backyard, they have a right to say whether or not they want it

:29:05.:29:09.

there. Therefore, we have to be prepared to say that when

:29:09.:29:12.

communities come back - this was the initial consultation phase -

:29:12.:29:16.

when the communities come back and say it is not going to work for us,

:29:16.:29:20.

this is not what we would like... Helen's question was whether the

:29:20.:29:23.

Government should turn its back on nuclear. It shouldn't. The man in

:29:23.:29:33.
:29:33.:29:37.

$:/STARTFEED. I'm interested in where Baroness Warsi thinks she'll

:29:37.:29:42.

find a community that does want nuclear?

:29:42.:29:45.

APPLAUSE Germany has its own nuclear waste in a great pile of

:29:45.:29:50.

salt. They keep their own but do they want ours? If we paid them.

:29:50.:29:58.

Maybe. James Delingpole? I think it's odd we are having this

:29:58.:30:02.

conversation about renewables in Lancashire where we are sitting on

:30:02.:30:08.

top of some of the world's biggest shale gas reserves. This is going

:30:08.:30:15.

to transform Britain's energy economy with energy that is

:30:15.:30:18.

actually abundant relatively cheap and does not destroy the landscape

:30:18.:30:24.

like these ghastly windfarms do. you are in favour of Fast Tracking?

:30:24.:30:34.
:30:34.:30:38.

Fast Tracking, yes. -- fracking? We have a coalition with the Liberal

:30:38.:30:42.

Democrats who're green ideologicals, committed to more expensive energy

:30:43.:30:46.

and committed to renewables like perhaps the lady up there.

:30:46.:30:50.

Renewables have several problems. One of which is that they are

:30:50.:30:52.

exceptionally expensive, another of which, in the case of wind, which

:30:52.:30:55.

is that they only work about a third of the time when the wind

:30:55.:31:00.

chooses to blow at the right level. Otherwise they are a monstrosity,

:31:00.:31:08.

they destroy the landscape, they kill birds and bats. They ruin

:31:08.:31:12.

Donald Trump's golf courses. They kill property values. Should

:31:12.:31:17.

Britain turn its back on nuclear or not? No, absolutely not. The French

:31:17.:31:22.

have shown successfully that you can make nuclear power work. The

:31:22.:31:26.

people who were trying to sell this nuclear waste did a very, very poor

:31:26.:31:32.

job of it. I'm sure they could have made a much better case. You, Sir

:31:32.:31:36.

If the problem is finding a community that we need to allow us

:31:36.:31:40.

to dump the waste into, find somewhere where there isn't a

:31:40.:31:43.

community. You have massive deserts where nobody lives and no animal

:31:43.:31:49.

life. So put it there. The man behind you? I agree with what James

:31:49.:31:54.

was saying. We are exploring the shale gas under the Fylde Coast.

:31:54.:31:57.

There are risks associated with that which we are accepting. I

:31:57.:32:02.

think we do need a grown-up debate about where we are going to get our

:32:02.:32:07.

energy from in the future. There is no doubt that fossil fuels won't

:32:07.:32:11.

last forever. We need to combine sustainable together with nuclear.

:32:11.:32:18.

We can't afford to turn our back on nuclear energy. Ewen with -- even

:32:18.:32:21.

with shale gas, what's important is that the communities will benefit

:32:21.:32:25.

from that and should benefit from that. From me, the issue is whether

:32:25.:32:29.

it's nuclear and where the waste is put, whether it's energy in

:32:29.:32:34.

relation to green energy or Fast Tracking, it's vital that the

:32:34.:32:37.

communities are compensated and the communities where it's found get

:32:37.:32:45.

the benefits from it -- Fast Tracking. There is a community --

:32:45.:32:50.

fracking. The question that Helen asked was... Why can't Cumbria have

:32:50.:32:55.

it? They have Sellafield. question was, should the Government

:32:56.:33:00.

abandon nuclear and concentrate on renewables? We need to do both.

:33:00.:33:06.

There is an important contract announced today with Danish oil and

:33:06.:33:11.

natural gas company will spend �1 billion developing what's called

:33:11.:33:14.

western-most rough field off the coast of East Yorkshire and there

:33:14.:33:21.

are millions of jobs being created in manufacturing wind turbines on

:33:21.:33:24.

and offshore. I don't think anyone who's looked at this sensibly,

:33:24.:33:27.

including the Lib Dems who're against nuclear energy and were

:33:27.:33:30.

before they came into Government, then a Lib Dem minister, Chris

:33:30.:33:35.

Huhne and Ed Davey have both said that it's crucial that we have an

:33:35.:33:38.

element of our electricity generated through nuclear. I think

:33:38.:33:46.

that's right. We want to keep the lights on. If we want to get CO2

:33:46.:33:51.

emissions down. Nuclear enemy, I mean nuclear energy has to be part

:33:51.:33:58.

of the solution to that. I want to pick up on something that

:33:58.:34:01.

James mentioned about wind power being ghastly and the sight of it.

:34:01.:34:04.

I think the fact that a windfarm when it's decommissioned will take

:34:04.:34:09.

only a matter of weeks to take down is far more favourable than the

:34:09.:34:13.

fact that we are still decommissioning Calder Hall at

:34:13.:34:16.

Sellafield right now. That was decommissioned years ago.

:34:16.:34:19.

APPLAUSE The woman in the third row from the

:34:19.:34:24.

back? You, yes? To get back to the question of Cumbria refusing this

:34:24.:34:29.

offer, what are the Government going to do now? Are they going to

:34:29.:34:35.

renegotiate and spend more money to tempt some area to take this?

:34:35.:34:40.

are the Government going to do, Sayeeda Warsi? That has been a

:34:40.:34:43.

local negotiation and hasn't even got to the stage of planning, it's

:34:43.:34:47.

been a consultation. Now they'll have to move on to see where else

:34:47.:34:50.

they can consult to the long-term planning. That was the last place

:34:50.:34:57.

left wasn't it? I'm not sure it was. It was. How big an area do they

:34:57.:35:06.

need? In your garden? Three Square Miles minimum. Very impressive!

:35:06.:35:12.

much for that? You, Sir? Could we possibly not export it to Scotland

:35:12.:35:15.

and then give them their independence?!

:35:15.:35:25.
:35:25.:35:27.

APPLAUSE Let's go on to another question

:35:27.:35:32.

from Columbus Scallan, please? Should Prince Charles ask the Queen

:35:32.:35:40.

to go Dutch? Dom Joly? This of course is the

:35:40.:35:47.

Queen of the Netherlands who's retiring, as did her predecessors

:35:47.:35:55.

and her predecessor's predecessor. I have no knowledge of the Royal

:35:55.:36:00.

Family in Holland. I think it's neat she did it on her 75th

:36:00.:36:02.

birthday. You look at Prince Charles and how reformed he is.

:36:02.:36:06.

It's been going on for so long, it feels like Gordon Brown really that

:36:06.:36:14.

in the end if he got there, it would be a terrible

:36:14.:36:16.

disappointment... APPLAUSE

:36:16.:36:20.

I think we should have just been kinder really and somehow

:36:20.:36:23.

circumvented the whole thing and told him a couple of years ago that

:36:23.:36:27.

it's not going to happen, shuffle off, do some gardening and we are

:36:27.:36:31.

going to go straight to William and I think everybody would be happier.

:36:31.:36:37.

I don't know. The Queen does a great job, I have to say. It's a

:36:37.:36:41.

great question, one I didn't expect. But thinking about it... Do you

:36:41.:36:51.
:36:51.:36:51.

work out everything in advance? try to work out what's coming.

:36:51.:36:55.

Columbus who asked the question, it's a matter for Her Majesty, it's

:36:55.:36:59.

not inconceivable that with the amount of time she's dedicated to

:36:59.:37:05.

this role over so many years that she feels she would like to, much

:37:05.:37:08.

like Queen Beatrice did, have a rest. That's entirely a matter for

:37:08.:37:12.

her. I'm a big fan of Prince Charles, I've got nothing against

:37:12.:37:17.

him at all. Me neither. I'm very pleased that in Parliament we are

:37:17.:37:20.

going through the process of ensuring that it does not

:37:20.:37:24.

automatically pass to the male line and that we bring that particular

:37:25.:37:29.

piece of our constitution into the 21st century, but if Her Majesty

:37:29.:37:35.

wishes to go Dutch, I'm with her. Anybody in the audience have any

:37:35.:37:45.
:37:45.:37:45.

views? You, Sir, with the spectacles? Lady. Surely our time

:37:45.:37:48.

would be spent better than talking about this tonight. We could think

:37:48.:37:52.

of much better things to talk about. Yes but you shouldn't have put your

:37:53.:37:55.

hand up. APPLAUSE

:37:55.:38:00.

James Delingpole? I know this may well cost me my Knighthood, but I'm

:38:00.:38:05.

not a big fan of Prince Charles. I think the Queen is totally

:38:05.:38:08.

fantastic. She totally understands what it is to be a constitutional

:38:08.:38:13.

Monarch and it's not to make provocative outspoken remarks. We

:38:13.:38:16.

never really know what she thinks, she's just the Queen, she's there

:38:16.:38:20.

for us, she's there for all of us. I worry that Prince Charles takes

:38:20.:38:24.

far too many explicitly political positions, particularly on issues

:38:24.:38:28.

like climate change, which he knows nothing about, he just gets the

:38:28.:38:35.

rubbish fed to him by Al Gore and goes around in his biofuel powered

:38:35.:38:42.

Aston Martin lecturing us. I'm not a fan of Prince Charles and I hope

:38:42.:38:46.

the Queen can carry on for ever or at least until rules take over.

:38:46.:38:50.

Prince Charles is a deeply thoughtful, intelligent man and we

:38:50.:38:53.

should be incredibly proud of the work that she's done on so many

:38:53.:38:56.

fronts. I know him from the work he's done in relation to community

:38:56.:39:00.

cohesion and the amount of work he's done in bringing different

:39:00.:39:03.

faith communities together is really commendable and we should be

:39:03.:39:07.

incredibly proud of the work he does. I don't think - the Queen's

:39:07.:39:11.

just had a tremendous year - we have just celebrated the Jubilee.

:39:11.:39:16.

She's going strong, she's a massive iconic figure for us and a great

:39:16.:39:20.

advert for us around the world and I think I can't see her stepping

:39:20.:39:23.

down and I wouldn't like her to step down.

:39:23.:39:31.

APPLAUSE You, Sir? I think the Queen is a

:39:31.:39:36.

great ambassador for this country, as was displayed last year at the

:39:36.:39:39.

Jubilee celebrations. But Prince Charles is actually a great

:39:39.:39:44.

supporter of Lancashire, especially East Lancashire, and he's been up

:39:44.:39:47.

here on numerous occasions supporting local projects over

:39:47.:39:52.

towards Burnley. Like you say, if she want Toscary on, let her carry

:39:52.:39:56.

on. She's a great ambassador for this country and we should be happy

:39:56.:40:01.

to support her -- if she wants to carry on.

:40:01.:40:04.

I fully accept the Queen is very hard-working, but what I would like

:40:04.:40:09.

to ask is, when will we, the British people, be ever given a

:40:09.:40:12.

choice as to whether we want monarchy?

:40:12.:40:19.

APPLAUSE 2019. Would you like to it be tied

:40:19.:40:23.

in with the referendum or something? Why not, in 2017, we

:40:23.:40:30.

could have a long debate about it. Zoe? I'm afraid I agree with the

:40:30.:40:34.

lady, I don't care who's the Monarch. It could be any one of

:40:34.:40:36.

them. Thank you very much. We can move

:40:36.:40:39.

swiftly on then and you will be pleased that we are leaving the

:40:39.:40:44.

topic and go on to something different. Question from Chris

:40:44.:40:47.

Stoves, please? Should Nick Clegg send his children

:40:47.:40:51.

to private schools? Obviously a question about the

:40:51.:40:54.

wholeish you of private schools which have been coming under attack

:40:54.:40:58.

or at least been trying to defend themselves this week with

:40:58.:41:02.

headmasters saying people who go to private schools are unfairly

:41:02.:41:05.

treated, head mistresses or head teachers going to Switzerland

:41:05.:41:10.

because they say it's too painful to be defending yourself all the

:41:10.:41:17.

time and Nick Clegg saying he'd maeck a choice -- make a choice.

:41:17.:41:20.

It's not about private or public, but it's about what's best for your

:41:20.:41:26.

child, he said. James Delingpole? Why did you pick on me, I wonder?!

:41:26.:41:29.

No idea. You haven't started one before. Is there a reason why I

:41:29.:41:34.

should? A wrote a piece in the paper the other day about boarding

:41:34.:41:38.

school and why it's a jolly good thing. Sorry, I don't read

:41:38.:41:42.

everything you write! You said you were going to be nice to me as a

:41:42.:41:47.

fellow Christchurch man and now you are knifing me!

:41:47.:41:53.

I have no problem whatsoever with MPs sending their children to the

:41:53.:42:03.
:42:03.:42:03.

best education in the world, provided that they do not endorse...

:42:03.:42:09.

Well I can't stand hypocrisy, particularly among Labour MPs, I'm

:42:09.:42:13.

sure Alan Johnson isn't one of of them, where they sneer at the

:42:13.:42:18.

private system up until the point where I comes to darling Little

:42:18.:42:22.

Johny and suddenly their change their tune and send them off to

:42:22.:42:27.

private school. There's nothing wrong with private schools. It

:42:27.:42:31.

seems they are constantly discriminated against by university

:42:31.:42:35.

admissions, tutors and so on because of this fairness policy we

:42:35.:42:41.

get imposed on us by the coalition unfortunately. But no, I'm not sure

:42:41.:42:45.

what Nick Clegg's position is on private schools, but he's perfectly

:42:46.:42:50.

entitled to choose education. terms of Nick Clegg's role, you

:42:50.:42:55.

know, he will say he believes in the comprehensive system, he will

:42:55.:42:59.

try and influence legislation regarding it, then for him to not

:42:59.:43:03.

send his kids to a comprehensive school, it seems like he doesn't

:43:03.:43:06.

have any faith in it. That sort of seems poor.

:43:06.:43:14.

Like using the NHS and not using private?

:43:14.:43:17.

APPLAUSE Well, I think lots of people

:43:17.:43:21.

perhaps like David Cameron, they use the NHS, they send their kids

:43:21.:43:25.

to comprehensive schools, at least it shows that they believe in the

:43:25.:43:28.

system and that they have a stake in the system.

:43:29.:43:34.

OK. Alan Johnson? It's up to Nick Clegg where he sends his children.

:43:34.:43:40.

Is there an issue about private schools? I think there is. In

:43:40.:43:43.

politics, you deal with what's possible, the art of the possible.

:43:43.:43:47.

There was a time, during the Second World War, where there was a

:43:47.:43:51.

feeling in this country when we should get rid of this system where

:43:51.:43:58.

one group of people are educated in a completely different system. It

:43:58.:44:02.

doesn't happen in many other countries and I think the gap

:44:02.:44:05.

between state education and private education is one of the most

:44:05.:44:11.

pernicious dividing issues in our country. If you look at the

:44:11.:44:17.

judiciary, if you look at the senior Echelons of the Armed Forces

:44:17.:44:20.

and the current Cabinet, you will find that it's that small per

:44:20.:44:23.

scentage of children that went to private schools. I'm not blaming

:44:23.:44:27.

their parents, I'm not blaming them, they have no choice about what

:44:27.:44:33.

school they go to, I think me and Sayeeda are the only state educated

:44:33.:44:38.

panellists here, but if you listen to those who dedicate their time to

:44:38.:44:42.

giving time to disadvantaged kids, they'll tell you that this issue is

:44:42.:44:46.

a big problem in this country, probably one too big for

:44:46.:44:50.

politicians to tackle because of the dealings with the art of the

:44:50.:44:54.

possible. The gentleman there's got a point - how can you talk about

:44:54.:44:59.

state education when you never sent your kids anywhere near it.

:44:59.:45:09.
:45:09.:45:10.

You, yes? Parents will always want to send their children to the best

:45:10.:45:13.

school they can. If they think paying for it is the way they are

:45:13.:45:19.

going to get it, I see no problem with that. I went to a

:45:19.:45:22.

comprehensive school. I went to an amazing university. If parents can

:45:22.:45:26.

send them to a private school, and can, I don't think there should be

:45:26.:45:30.

an issue. The man in the second row? I would imagine Nick Clegg

:45:30.:45:34.

doesn't have any confidence in the state system because we current I

:45:34.:45:38.

will have an Education Secretary that doesn't have a clue what he is

:45:38.:45:45.

talking about! LAUGHTER Dom Joly? hate this question so much! Why?

:45:45.:45:49.

Well, for loads of reasons. I do feel badly for any politician that

:45:49.:45:54.

has this because I do believe that in some ways, your family life

:45:54.:45:59.

should be separate from whatever... But if you are promoting a certain

:45:59.:46:02.

policy it seems hypocritical if you don't send your kids to that system

:46:02.:46:06.

that you are advocating. I went to a private school. It was a place

:46:06.:46:10.

where it was set up to train people to run India. When India became

:46:10.:46:13.

independent there must have been a meeting at some stage where they

:46:13.:46:18.

said, "What now?" They thought, "Let's carry on." I'm fully trained

:46:18.:46:25.

to run India should it come! LAUGHTER I now live - my kids could

:46:25.:46:31.

go to a good comprehensive and a public school. Everything in me and

:46:31.:46:38.

my wife is going, "Why would we pay money to send our kids there when

:46:38.:46:44.

they can go to a perfectly good comprehensive?" I wish we did

:46:44.:46:47.

abolish public schools, personally. You, Sir? The Labour Party would

:46:47.:46:51.

have gone further than private schools and closed grammar schools

:46:51.:46:55.

as well. Lancaster has a boys and girls grammar school and we have

:46:55.:47:00.

had fantastic... State-funded? State-funded. They were on the list

:47:00.:47:04.

for abolition and they have given fantastic education to this town

:47:04.:47:08.

for hundreds of years. They are still state-funded? Yes. You?

:47:08.:47:12.

went to a private school. My mum made a great amount of sacrifices

:47:12.:47:16.

to send me to it. Why should we penalise that? We should be proud

:47:17.:47:21.

of the fact that people made great sacrifices. We should be proud of

:47:21.:47:27.

the fact that we have some of the best schools in the country. Do you

:47:27.:47:34.

feel like this headmaster - he said private schools, the hatred of

:47:34.:47:38.

private schools is a hatred that dare not speak its name? Do you

:47:38.:47:42.

find a prejudice against you? think there is. There was in the

:47:42.:47:47.

Olympics as well. There was all this penalisation of too many

:47:47.:47:51.

athletes from private schools. Should it matter? It should be

:47:51.:47:54.

about ability and not your background. People who come from

:47:54.:47:57.

privileged backgrounds do tend to be penalised on the grounds they

:47:57.:48:01.

are from those backgrounds. Williams? I don't know where to

:48:01.:48:07.

start. I will stick with Nick Clegg. The thing is he said the private

:48:07.:48:11.

schools system was toxic and divisive. He said that. The

:48:11.:48:15.

question of whether or not he is a hypocrite is ridiculous. Of course

:48:15.:48:19.

he is. There is no such thing as a political belief that doesn't

:48:19.:48:21.

affect your personal decision. There is no such thing as politics

:48:22.:48:24.

for other people's children. You can't make laws so that other

:48:24.:48:32.

people hold them. It is ridiculous. APPLAUSE I've got that off my

:48:32.:48:38.

chest! What I found more problematic about the way

:48:38.:48:46.

politicians do this is that it kind of catastrophises the state system.

:48:46.:48:51.

The state system is so bad we have to betray our principles. It is a

:48:51.:48:54.

shame. The state system is so terrible that we can't be expected

:48:54.:49:00.

as parents to do anything else. The result of that over time has been

:49:00.:49:06.

for a perfectly good state secondary school to be painted as

:49:06.:49:11.

complete sinks because of people like Nick Clegg. It is disgusting.

:49:11.:49:19.

APPLAUSE The Tories said it would be impossible to abolish because it

:49:19.:49:23.

is against the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Do you believe that?

:49:23.:49:26.

The people who call for it to be abolished are the people who are

:49:26.:49:29.

conflicted because they want to send their kids there but they know

:49:29.:49:36.

it is wrong. I don't care whether they are abolished or not. OK. You,

:49:36.:49:43.

Sir? How many MPs would choose to send their children to private

:49:43.:49:48.

school? It's what stops them is the fear of the political flak as so

:49:48.:49:55.

fantastically shown by Malcolm Tucker in The Thick Of It. Let me

:49:55.:49:59.

start with Nick Clegg. One of the things that he has done is he has

:49:59.:50:03.

kept his family out of politics. His wife stays out of politics. His

:50:03.:50:07.

children stay out of politics. We have to be incredibly careful that

:50:07.:50:11.

we start encroaching on people's personal lives unless they start

:50:11.:50:15.

putting their personal lives into the public domain. It has to be a

:50:15.:50:19.

private decision for him and his wife. I think what people like to

:50:19.:50:22.

see in politics is just genuine authenticity, being straight about

:50:22.:50:25.

what you are going to do. If you are going to send them to private

:50:25.:50:30.

school, be straight about it. We have five kids. I have five

:50:30.:50:33.

wonderful kids. Three of them went to state school. Two of them went

:50:33.:50:39.

to independent schools. One of them went to a faith Muslim independent

:50:39.:50:45.

school... That makes six - seven! Of the five, one of them went to a

:50:45.:50:50.

faith Muslim independent school, one went to an Anglican convent

:50:50.:50:54.

school. As long as you are prepared to say this is the way it is, we

:50:54.:50:58.

made choices for our different children and it works for different

:50:58.:51:01.

children. Where the public get annoyed is if you try and be

:51:01.:51:04.

something that you are not and that is why it is good to be straight. I

:51:04.:51:08.

also think if we decide, like I have decided to keep my family out

:51:08.:51:11.

of politics, I think people should stay out of our family lives.

:51:11.:51:18.

The person over there on the right? I would just like to say that the

:51:19.:51:22.

discrimination I suspect people who have gone to private school feel is

:51:22.:51:24.

nothing compared to the discrimination you feel if you

:51:24.:51:28.

haven't had a good enough education and you can't read and write and

:51:28.:51:35.

you have to be humiliated in the sure it is a real discrimination,

:51:35.:51:45.
:51:45.:51:48.

but I just don't think it is comparable. APPLAUSE We've got five

:51:48.:51:52.

minutes left. A last question from Simon Noble? Polish is now the

:51:52.:51:57.

second language in the UK. Will we need to revise this to Bulgarian or

:51:57.:52:03.

Romanian next year? Yes, this figure came out that nearly 500,000

:52:03.:52:07.

people in England, in Britain I should say, now speak Polish. The

:52:07.:52:10.

number of people learning French and German is falling. The number

:52:10.:52:14.

of people learning Polish is going up. Alan Johnson, how do you

:52:14.:52:20.

interpret this and the questions about Bulgarian and Romanian

:52:20.:52:25.

immigration next year? I have lots of Polish friends. There has to be

:52:25.:52:30.

a second language. Welsh is - if we take England and Wales and Poland

:52:30.:52:35.

comes third. Anyone who can speak Polish deserves my full admiration.

:52:35.:52:39.

It is a very difficult language to speak. Will this happen with

:52:39.:52:45.

Romania and Bulgaria? This is the issue about January 2014. If I was

:52:45.:52:51.

the EU Commission, I would seek to find a way to put that decision

:52:51.:52:56.

back by four or five years. It is not about an issue of being anti-

:52:57.:53:03.

immigrant. My concern is that if they lift that restriction, then

:53:03.:53:08.

Romania will lose a lot of - and Bulgaria - will lose a lot of their

:53:08.:53:12.

finest talent. I would like to see some kind of GDP measure that says

:53:12.:53:17.

once you have reached that GDP measure, once your country is at a

:53:18.:53:21.

certain level of prosperity, that is when free movement kicks in. If

:53:21.:53:26.

you do that, you can ensure that countries coming in to the EU, who

:53:26.:53:31.

by definition are much poorer and take time, that is why there is

:53:31.:53:35.

seven years, there is a chance to extend that for the sake of that

:53:35.:53:40.

country as well. I think in terms of what happened with the Polish

:53:40.:53:44.

population coming here, history is being rewritten. In 2004/5 I was a

:53:44.:53:52.

Minister at the time. We had a the highest rate of unemployment ever.

:53:52.:53:57.

The reason why us, Sweden and Ireland lifted that restriction

:53:57.:54:02.

early is because our economy - and our employers told us it was

:54:02.:54:07.

necessary to do that. More people came than was expected. You don't

:54:07.:54:14.

think it was a mistake? I disagree with Ed in terms of - in hindsight,

:54:14.:54:18.

you would have a better grasp of the numbers. If you knew that many

:54:18.:54:23.

were coming, you would look at it again. All right. Dom Joly? We have

:54:23.:54:28.

to be swift here. I get what this question is basically about. Are we

:54:28.:54:32.

going to allow people to come into this country? There seems to be -

:54:32.:54:39.

there was something pernicious about saying Polish is our second

:54:39.:54:43.

biggest language. I have a problem if people come in and don't learn

:54:43.:54:47.

English. To me, Polish is (a) the most complicated language in the

:54:47.:54:52.

world. Most Poles speak English anyway. I don't see it as a problem.

:54:52.:54:57.

I hope there will be possibly more control on Romanian and Bulgarians

:54:57.:55:02.

coming in. I have no problem people coming in if they are going to work.

:55:02.:55:06.

If people are coming in to sponge off us, maybe there should be more

:55:06.:55:10.

controls. Do you think it would be possible Sayeeda Warsi to have

:55:10.:55:13.

controls of the kind Alan Johnson has just suggested that the EU

:55:13.:55:16.

might temper the pace of immigration? Is that on the cards?

:55:16.:55:21.

It is the thing we are looking at. At the moment, we can have

:55:21.:55:27.

transition provisions for seven years which means you can delay a

:55:27.:55:31.

country's citizens coming in and exercising their right to free

:55:31.:55:35.

movement for a period of seven years. We need to look at how these

:55:35.:55:39.

countries can be at a certain level before their citizens start moving

:55:39.:55:43.

around. This will be very different to the Polish situation. We did

:55:43.:55:47.

apply these transition provisions for seven years as did lots of

:55:47.:55:51.

other EU countries. They are all going to come off at the same time.

:55:51.:55:55.

If people do want to travel, they will have the option to travel.

:55:55.:56:00.

Traditionally, the Bulgarians and the Romanians have travelled to

:56:00.:56:04.

warmer climates - they prefer Spain over the United Kingdom. I think in

:56:04.:56:09.

terms of the language question that was asked - Polish is the second,

:56:09.:56:16.

Punjabi is the third and Urdu is the fourth. We have a diverse set

:56:16.:56:19.

of languages. I think the dialogue we have about immigration is flawed,

:56:19.:56:24.

like all of the newspapers say they come here and scrounge off our

:56:24.:56:28.

country. Immigrants bring into our economy �1.2 billion more than they

:56:28.:56:33.

take out in benefits. When will the papers start printing a fact like

:56:33.:56:40.

that? APPLAUSE Zoe Williams? I want to ask a question. Is there any

:56:40.:56:43.

truth in the rumour that the Government is putting together

:56:43.:56:48.

posters to stop Bulgarians coming to the UK? There is no truth in

:56:48.:56:53.

that rumour. Can you say it again? There is no truth in the rumour

:56:53.:56:57.

that we are about to put some posters out in Bulgaria and

:56:57.:57:01.

Romania... Because it is not true, or you are not doing it? If you

:57:01.:57:08.

were, what would they be?! Piers Morgan lives here! It hasn't been

:57:08.:57:18.
:57:18.:57:20.

discussed in Cabinet. If they are doing it, I don't know about it.

:57:20.:57:24.

James Delingpole? Migrationwatch reckons from January 2014, we are

:57:24.:57:29.

going to get 50,000 Bulgarians and Romanians coming in for the next

:57:29.:57:33.

five years. That is the population of Lancaster coming in every year.

:57:33.:57:39.

I think we need to go further than this non-existent movie that you

:57:39.:57:44.

are making! We need to stage an anti-Olympics to put people off

:57:44.:57:50.

coming to Britain. We could have Dom Joly doing the diving. We could

:57:50.:57:55.

serve horse meat burgers... Or you tweeting! Then I fear it would not

:57:55.:58:00.

work. When you have people on the fifth of the average wage, this is

:58:00.:58:04.

a very attractive country. I don't - I think until we get out of the

:58:04.:58:08.

EU, there is nothing we can do about it. OK. We have to stop.

:58:08.:58:13.

Thank you very much. Sorry for those of you who had your hands up

:58:13.:58:17.

still! You should come to Stirling where we will be next week and have

:58:17.:58:20.

another go! The week after that, we will be in Leicester. If you would

:58:20.:58:28.

like to come and join the audience, you can apply at

:58:28.:58:32.

www.bbc.co.uk/questiontime. Or call My thanks to our panellists here

:58:32.:58:37.

and to all of you who came here to Lancaster, to this wonderful

:58:37.:58:42.

building. It's full of lovely marble and great panelled oak and

:58:42.:58:46.

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