Browse content similar to 31/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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$:/STARTFEED. Tonight, we are in the splendid Town Hall of Lancaster, | :00:10. | :00:20. | |
:00:20. | :00:24. | ||
Good evening and welcome to our audience here in Lancaster and to | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
our panel, the Foreign Office minister, Sayeeda Warsi, Labour's | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
former Home Secretary, Alan Johnson, the Guardian columnist, Zoe | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
Williams, the novelist and writer for the Spectator, James Delingpole, | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :00:55. | ||
and the comedian, Dom Joly. Good. Let's get cracking. The | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
questions provided by our audience are not known to our panellists | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
until they hear them read out. The first one from Ahsanul Haq, please? | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
Is reducing the travelling time from Manchester to London worth �30 | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
billion? The expenditure on the new rail | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
system of �30 billion. Is it worth it just to reduce the travelling | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
time to Manchester from London, Alan Johnson? If it was just that, | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
maybe not, but it's about much more than that. Listen, there hasn't | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
been a new railway built towards the north of England for well over | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
100 years. In fact, the only new rail line anywhere in the last 150 | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
years was high speed one which is now very successful incidentally. | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
This is about capacity. Yes, it increases the speed at which you | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
can travel North and that's very important, but our creeking railway | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
system, that infrastructure was put in, the foresight was there to do | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
it 200 years ago, we need to have the foresight to recognise that we | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
have a 19th century rail system in a 21st century economy. At the time | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
of Dr Beeching, those of you old enough might remember, in the early | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
60, it was felt that we had to manage decline on the railways. | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
They boomed and will boom even more if we can ensure we have the | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
correct capacity. Travelling time is the thing? Travelling time, yes. | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
Does it matter if you get there that much faster? It's going to be | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
another hour and eight minutes to get to Manchester. It will decrease | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
the time it takes to get to Leeds. This is important stuff and from | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
then on further north. But the main issue is about capacity. We don't | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
get capacity in, we'll spend that much money repairing an an te | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
Kuwaited Victorian system when other countries are well ahead in | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
bringing their rail services up-to- date. | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
-- ant Kuwaited. Rather than spending bills on a new railway | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
infrastructure, surely it's better to spend the money sorting out the | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
current rolling stock and focusing on the fact that there are people | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
in this country commuting to work spending thousands of pounds on | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
train fares to stand all the way there and all the way back. | :03:04. | :03:12. | |
Joly, do you agree with that? APPLAUSE | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
Absolutely. I'm slightly worried because James Delingpole is | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
agreeing with me. I live in the Cotswolds and go from Kemble to | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
London. As far as I can work out, I'm the sort of person that turns | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
up on the day, I don't get a season ticket because I don't work | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
regularly and when I turn up, I think it's the most expensive | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
railway journey in the world. I love the fact we'll get a fast | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
railway. I've been to Japan and France but it's all over really, | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
it's kind of like we are investing in the Walkman when the iPod's | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
already going. In a big country, over 400 miles say, something like | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
the high speed trains are important. But in England I don't think we | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
need them. Invest in the railway stock we've already got and get it | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
back with a company that holds the whole thing together and make it | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
work properly. It's crazy. APPLAUSE | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
It also strikes me that it's 20 years too late because | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
telecommunications have moved on so fast that most people can now do | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
things by their computers. They don't need to catch a train. | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
Sayeeda Warsi, it doesn't seem that popular with this household, �1,000 | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
a household spent on this? It's not just the journey time between | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
London and the north, it's the journey time between the northern | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
cities. Leeds to Birmingham, that journey time will be halved. If you | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
take the times from Leeds to Manchester, Birmingham to | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
Manchester, it will be the interconnectivity and it can't be | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
right that it's been over 100 years since there's been any major rail | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
infrastructure in the north of England. This will have huge | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
benefits for connectivity and the economy. We are in the north here | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
in Lancaster and you saw universal applause for the point Dom Joly | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
made that you can do better things with the money? Dom made important | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
points about pricing and rolling stock and the quality and lots of | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
important points. I also think there's never been a major | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
infrastructure project, estren when the Victorians were building | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
railways, in fact a doctor at the time said we must haven't fast | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
trains because it would stop people from breathing within the trains -- | :05:30. | :05:40. | |
even when the Victorians were building railways. On Great First | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
Western, they're so full, some timeious can't breathe. There are | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
questions about the environment and whether it's good value for money. | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
If we are concerned when ten or 20 years behind Japan, we can't sit | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
here in ten years' time saying we didn't do anything. We are 40 years | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
behind, aren't we? The north will see the benefits. I'm hugely for it. | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
It will be 20 years from now before it's online so it's 40 years behind. | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
James Delingpole? We've got the political class represented by Alan | :06:12. | :06:22. | |
:06:22. | :06:24. | ||
and Sayeeda. It's going to cost us �billion. I'm sure that's an | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
underestimate -- �30 billion. I was on the train on the way here. There | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
was an annoying person sitting opposite me on his mobile... It | :06:34. | :06:41. | |
wasn't you! He was running his office on his mobile, doing | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
executive boast speak sounding like David Brent briefing his staff, | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
buoying up his sales team. It was very annoying but this is how | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
people operate these days, using the train for the Internet and | :06:51. | :06:59. | |
stuff. They use the train as their office? Yes, it doesn't matter if | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
they can get from Manchester to London in ten seconds. Why do you | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
say political class want this and others don't, as you put it? We are | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
stuck with the failing economy and they think that you have these big | :07:14. | :07:22. | |
projects which are going to improve the economy magically. Do you awe | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
gree? I agree with Dom -- agree. We should upgrade the rolling stock. I | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
believe it's what the people want. APPLAUSE Perhaps before we start | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
spending such a vast amount of money on reducing travelling times | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
between Manchester and London, we should spend some money on creating | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
some business in the north of England to get this part of the | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
country back to work. APPLAUSE | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
The woman in yellow? This is just going to make matters | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
worse. It could drain away jobs from the north because it would | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
make it faster for people to get from the north-west down to London. | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
What we need is investment in this region. At the moment, it takes you | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
nearly as long to get from Lancaster to Liverpool as it does | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
to get from Lancaster to London. And what about, you know, the north | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
doesn't finish at Manchester. It actually barely starts. | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
APPLAUSE Zoe Williams? I was always in | :08:30. | :08:37. | |
favour of HS2 instinctively because Lord Astor said it was a horrible | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
idea devised by northern MPs because they were jealous of the | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
Chilterns. They took that to heart and said we'll have it in the north | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
and everyone can have their landscape spoilt. That's gone on to | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
get cross party support for it. The fact is, nobody ever likes new | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
infrastructure, but nobody ever, with the exception of the | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
Millennium Dome complains about it Millennium Dome complains about it | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
once it's been built. You have got to, on some level, think about the | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
up sides, you know. It's always very easy to see the downsides of | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
everything, but actually, 100,000 jobs wouldn't go amiss and that | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
would be like investing in the north. You reckon it would be | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
100,000 jobs? That's the estimate. What do you think? I think if we | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
don't invest in the infrastructure now, we'll have to invest in it at | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
some point in the future. If the Government doesn't invest, a | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
Government in the future is going to have to and sooner or later the | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
Victorian railways will break down, they won't work and there'll be a | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
point where you can't fix them any more. But this project only deals | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
with the certain places it's going to because it's so high speed, it | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
only stops about four places in the country. What about everyone else | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
who can't get on those trains? APPLAUSE | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
The whole point of this is, you can repair the current infrastructure | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
but it doesn't give you the additional capacity. The whole | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
point of this is you move people around more quickly around cities | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
and stop them taking short haul flights to Manchester and Leeds et | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
cetera incidentally. At the same time, you can then improve the | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
current infrastructure. Your problem that you said Dom and the | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
lady there was absolutely right. This is not, we do the High Speed | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
Two and don't do anything about rolling stock, we do the high speed | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
do, we don't do anything about businesss in the north and most | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
people who're in business tell me a crucial aspect of business is | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
relocating in the north is the travel distances. Of course, the | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
north is much further than Manchester, but once you get the | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
connection to Manchester and Leeds, you get the connections further to | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
the rest of the country much more quickly too. Can I ask you what I | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
said Sayeeda. Are you surprised there's almost universal hostility | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
here? Yes because I've always respected the intelligence and | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
goodwill of the people. LAUGHTER | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
One last point from the woman there? | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
I want to agree with Alan Johnson because I'm from Hull as well. | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
you come over from there tonight? Houpbgs did it take you?! It takes | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
four hours to get home from Lancaster. With the fast | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
connections, it allows continual improvements. There's not going to | :11:22. | :11:31. | |
be a fast line between Lancaster and Hull? Oh, there will be. You | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
come to Question Time and get your way with the man in charge. The man | :11:37. | :11:47. | |
:11:47. | :11:48. | ||
who wants to be back in charge. Grey beard wants you back in the | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
Shadow Cabinet. I didn't read that. What is your answer? It's in | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
tomorrow's paper. I'll talk to Mr Dimbleby about it! Just before the | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
next question, I ought to have said this, you are all here to talk | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
about it, but if you want to join the debate at home, you can join us, | :12:09. | :12:19. | |
:12:19. | :12:20. | ||
We have our guest panellist and tonight it's Jonathan Isaby of the | :12:20. | :12:28. | |
Taxpayers' Alliance and you can access what he says at the extra | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
guest. You can also text your own comments. | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
Sorry, Roger, let's have your question, Roger Preston? Are we | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
wise to become involved in another Islamist struggle in Mali? | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Sayeeda Warsi? Yes. I think this week there's been a number of | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
questions raised about what it is that we are doing in Mali, how that | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
fits into the wider Sahel region, will it be another Afghanistan? | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
These are valid questions, but these are questions which we ask | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
when we sit around the national security council table or the | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
Cabinet table. Can I try and put into context what is happening in | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
Mali first. The extremist terrorists who, for the last 12 | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
months, have been moving forward towards the capital, have been | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
taking over populated areas, have concerned the international | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
community. Last year, the United Nations passed a resolution in | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
which it said an international force or an African force supported | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
by the international community would go in to give support to the | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
Malian forces. Unfortunately, things changed quickly on the | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
ground and the extremists moved quickly towards the capital. At | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
that point, the Malian government asked the French and of course | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
there's a big connection with the French because of the clonian | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
history, they came in, and for the last week they have had real | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
success in pushing the terrorists back out. That's the back story, | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
but are we wise to become involved is the question? The way in which | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
we have become involve sod far is by first of all providing | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
logistical support in the form of two aircrafts which were ferrying | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
items from France to Mali, but also from other African countries to | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
Mali as well. Now 300 troops training people? The troops that | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
have been spoken about are two separate ones, part of a European | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
Union training mission and secondly a set of troops as part of trainers | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
for the African Union forces who'll provide the security. I think the | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
only way I can describe this is, this is like Somalia, not | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
Afghanistan. Let me explain what I mean by that. In smarlkpwhra, it | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
was felt that the international community should bring to the table | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
what they were good at -- Somalia. We had a conference last year, | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
helped with the political reconciliation. We have a | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
Government in Somalia which has legitimacy across large parts of | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
Somalia after decades of famine and effectively after being a failed | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
state. The African Union forces supported by the UN provided the | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
international community which has come in with a developmental aid. | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
The issue of extremist terrorism is an issue for the whole | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
international community. We therefore have to deal with it as | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
an international community. Not as the western forces against Islam or | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
the western forces against the east, this has got to be about all of us | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
acknowledging that we cannot allow ungoverned spaces to exist around | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
the world where these extremists can get together and then start to | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
be threats to their own populations but to us as well and our interests | :15:31. | :15:41. | |
:15:41. | :15:43. | ||
James Delingpole? David Cameron saw what Blair did in Sierra Leone and | :15:43. | :15:53. | |
:15:53. | :15:53. | ||
thought, "I'll have a bit of that." He's just been in Libya, hasn't he, | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
getting a bit of adulation from the Libyan leadership. I'm not sure | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
that we should be getting involved in these quicksand wars. They start | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
off, you send in a few advisers. These things tend to escalate. Fine, | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
if that is what you want to do, have a plan. But don't do it at a | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
time when you are reducing your Armed Forces. I think the Armed | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Forces' budget has been cut by 8% since the coalition took power. If | :16:25. | :16:32. | |
you really want to go and play this game of fighting many wars all over | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
the world - Afghanistan is not a good example - you have to have a | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
military budget to do it. Do you think it is inevitable that things | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
grow? Or could it be - I don't know what 330 training soldiers do. Are | :16:47. | :16:57. | |
:16:57. | :16:59. | ||
they SAS people saying, "Go round this side and attack those people"? | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
Look at what happened in Vietnam. The military advisers went in. Then | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
you have force protection. Then you get attacks on the personnel which | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
escalates it further. The woman up there? Given the point that's just | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
been made, and the point that was made by Sayeeda Warsi about the | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
unruly areas and the terrorism threats, is it wise to be cutting | :17:29. | :17:36. | |
5,000 troops? Would we have enough armed support to protect the United | :17:36. | :17:44. | |
Kingdom? Alan Johnson? Well, in terms of the original question... | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
And... The Prime Minister is wise to go to North Africa with the Head | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
of MI6 and talk about working together, sharing intelligence, | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
that is a very wise thing to do. He was unwise to say the other week in | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
Parliament that there will be only, the number of troops involved would | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
only be tens and the following week put it into hundreds. He was unwise | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
to use the kind of hyperbole about this being a war on terror, he | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
almost used those terms, just as Obama is saying this is the end of | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
the ten-year period. This is not what the world was like ten or 15 | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
years ago. Things have changed. We need to change the political | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
situation in Mali. It is a military dictatorship. His words were, "This | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
will require a response that is about years, even decades." You | :18:34. | :18:42. | |
think that is hyperbole? I think it is. Can I say one thing? The thing | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
about Mali, it is a very poor country. America subsidises its | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
cotton farmers to the tune of $5 billion a year. In America, they | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
have 25,000 cotton farmers. That subsidy depresss the price of | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
cotton and ten million West African cotton workers who produce good | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
quality cotton, cannot sell it on the open market and they cannot | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
trade their way out of poverty. There is another dimension to this | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
as well as the security dimension. OK. You, Sir? Yes, I think this is | :19:14. | :19:22. | |
a much bigger issue than just Algeria or Mali. I'm moving to | :19:22. | :19:30. | |
Nigeria in two weeks to start work there. Western Sahara is ungoverned. | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
What you need is for the Arab Spring to push through throughout | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
the Continent and have good governance throughout Africa. You | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
have states that have been in power for 20 or 30 years. You can't have | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
people impoverished as they are which leads to rebellion and | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
terrorism. What do you think of the Government's response? It is a tity | :19:54. | :20:01. | |
part of the solution. The person -- It is a tiny part of the solution. | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
The person in the second row? Islamist jihadist terrorist in | :20:05. | :20:15. | |
Syria we were told to support them and their freedom fighters. It is | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
hypocrisy. Zoe Williams? Look, the French have gone in. They are | :20:21. | :20:28. | |
fighting an enemy which they say is Islamic fundamentalism. But it is a | :20:28. | :20:38. | |
:20:38. | :20:40. | ||
parasitic element leeching off the the other. The danger for the | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
French is, they can think they have taken a city, the rebels look like | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
they have disappeared and they are back the next week. People have | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
already been shot by forces which the French thought they had | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
defeated. What should have been done? This is it. They can't stay | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
there forever. Should they have gone at all? They couldn't say no. | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
It is their Falklands. Should we be there? In terms of us being there, | :21:06. | :21:14. | |
we have to have a military alliance with the French. We are the only | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
two nuclear powers in Europe. We have to either support one another | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
or not bother having a military. Dom Joly? I'm astonished that the | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
French are in military action, finally! LAUGHTER | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
It's been such a long time. I'm tempted to say Waterloo was the | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
last time! The last time was probably when they went into | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
Algeria. Sir Peter Tapsell said it in Prime Minister's Question Time | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
yesterday. It was the last time the French were in any serious action. | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
They brought about the end of the Republic and they had to withdraw. | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
That is what is going to happen in all these places. What was the big | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
headline - Timbuktu taken without a shot!? The size of that place is | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
insane. You have Niger, Chad, it is unwinnable. I don't know what we | :22:09. | :22:19. | |
are doing there. APPLAUSE I think for people like me, Nick Clegg, | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
Andrew Lansley, many of us who sit around - Ken Clark - who sit around | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
that Cabinet table. We were anti- war. I took to the streets over the | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
war in Iraq. I had huge reservations about what we were | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
about to do in Afghanistan. We have an international responsibility. | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
The answer to every dispute is not Western troops on the ground. It is | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
not about Western combat troops. It is about as an international | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
community working through and working out what we can bring to | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
the table and how we can help these countries, which are ungoverned | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
spaces, where there are deep-rooted issues around poverty, territory, | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
about disputes around land. It is important that we work as an | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
international community, but with regional support. Where governments | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
and Alan would probably accept this - where mistakes were made in the | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
past was that this was seen as a Western war against terror, Western | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
interventionism. This is not like that this is about saying to the | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
local African Union, we will support you as an international | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
community, we will help you with training, we will help you with | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
resourcing. You have to manage the security. What we are good at, | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
whether that is intelligence- gathering, development work, work | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
in relation to political reconciliation, we need to be at | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
the table. This is all our problem and we need to resolve it together. | :23:36. | :23:45. | |
Dom Joly, does that change your view? No. Briefly? Can I suggest | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
instead of wasting 0.7% of our GDP on pointless aid ventures and | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
instead of wasting the lives of our service personnel, it would be much | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
better to engage in trade with Africa. I think part of the problem | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
is that it is not just caused by Islamism. It is caused by poverty. | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
People need a better standard of living. It is frustration that | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
makes them, you know, take the money to fight for various causes. | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
We should be engaging in trade. APPLAUSE One more point. The man in | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
the first row? I think there's definitely a need to instil some | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
political stability in Mali, however I think we are going about | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
it the wrong way. I mean, as far as I know, the UK has set no exit date | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
for taking its troops out of the area and the style with which the | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
Islamists fight almost guerrilla like, they won't stay in large open | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
spaces like Timbuktu. It will be a continual drain on the UK's | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
resources until we can no longer support it. Thank you very much. | :24:54. | :25:03. | |
APPLAUSE We must move on to something nearer home. Helen | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
Rimmer? With the Cumbria vote against the nuclear waste dump, is | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
it time the Government backed renewables instead? Cumbria had | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
been the last place in Britain that was considering having nuclear | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
waste, decided this week it wouldn't go any further and wasn't | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
going to have nuclear waste. Cumbria is due north of where we | :25:25. | :25:32. | |
are here. Is that the end of nuclear? Should they go back to | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
renewables? Zoe Williams? Well, I think there was always going to be | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
a problem with the nuclear storage in Cumbria. If the money and the | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
promises weren't enough, the Cumbrians would say, "Why would we | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
take this blot on the landscape?" If the money and the promises got | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
too much, you would say, "What is the catch?" I would think - | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
obviously, I'm in favour of renewables. We have got three | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
problems. Are you in favour of nuclear? I'm not as much in favour | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
of nuclear. I'm not anti-nuclear. You can't tell people to have | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
nuclear waste. What do you do with the nuclear waste? Exactly. You | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
keep the industries that people are going to accept. I don't think it | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
will be nuclear. You can abandon nuclear? You can abandon it or wait | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
until you have a better storage system. That was the ironic thing - | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
they were making a million year promise for how long it was going | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
to take. It will look different in 20 years to how it does now. How do | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
you make a problem for a million years? Where do you store it? | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
do you store it while you are waiting for your million-year | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
lease? I can't believe anyone turned this down(!) If someone says, | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
"We have a whole lot of nuclear waste, any chance we could bury it | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
under you?" Why would you say no? The Lake District has missed out. | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
If it leaked, you would have a fantastic new tourist attraction | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
which would be the glowing lakes of the district! LAUGHTER My option is | :27:01. | :27:10. | |
- I'm already in so much trouble in Weston-super-Mare - they have a | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
huge beach! The person up there? Perhaps they can combine the two | :27:17. | :27:24. | |
and bury underneath the new H2 road link? This is a serious issue. | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
Sayeeda Warsi, what is the Government going to do about it? | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
You have nowhere for your nuclear waste and you are committed to | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
nuclear? You can't bury nuclear waste in a community if that | :27:36. | :27:43. | |
community doesn't want it there. We have to be prepared to accept that. | :27:43. | :27:50. | |
I'm not an ideologue in relation to how we get our energy. Either we | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
use less and none of us are prepared to do that. And the North | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
Sea oil is going down. If you look at the tragedy that's happened in | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
Algeria a couple of weeks ago, we can't rely upon overseas sources | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
for energy which are stable all the time.? We have to have a whole | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
diverse range of energy. What do you do about nuclear? Some of that | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
is nuclear. What do you do about nuclear if you can't dump the | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
waste? This is a business decision. People who get involved in nuclear | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
power have to work with communities to make sure that they can find a | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
solution to these issues. There's many challenges with wind farms, | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
there are many challenges with offshore and onshore wind farms. We | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
know the challenges that happen when people try and put them up. | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
Are you saying the challenge is dangerous? There's divided opinions | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
about wind farms. You are not saying it is as dangerous except | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
for the one that had collapsed this week? You are not saying nuclear | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
waste is on a par with wind farms? Of course, I'm not. What do you do | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
about nuclear? What I am saying is as far as local communities are | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
concerned, whether that is a wind farm, or whether that is nuclear, | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
or whether that is any other form of energy that's been built in | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
their backyard, they have a right to say whether or not they want it | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
there. Therefore, we have to be prepared to say that when | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
communities come back - this was the initial consultation phase - | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
when the communities come back and say it is not going to work for us, | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
this is not what we would like... Helen's question was whether the | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
Government should turn its back on nuclear. It shouldn't. The man in | :29:23. | :29:33. | |
:29:33. | :29:37. | ||
$:/STARTFEED. I'm interested in where Baroness Warsi thinks she'll | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
find a community that does want nuclear? | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
APPLAUSE Germany has its own nuclear waste in a great pile of | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
salt. They keep their own but do they want ours? If we paid them. | :29:50. | :29:58. | |
Maybe. James Delingpole? I think it's odd we are having this | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
conversation about renewables in Lancashire where we are sitting on | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
top of some of the world's biggest shale gas reserves. This is going | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
to transform Britain's energy economy with energy that is | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
actually abundant relatively cheap and does not destroy the landscape | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
like these ghastly windfarms do. you are in favour of Fast Tracking? | :30:24. | :30:34. | |
:30:34. | :30:38. | ||
Fast Tracking, yes. -- fracking? We have a coalition with the Liberal | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
Democrats who're green ideologicals, committed to more expensive energy | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
and committed to renewables like perhaps the lady up there. | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
Renewables have several problems. One of which is that they are | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
exceptionally expensive, another of which, in the case of wind, which | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
is that they only work about a third of the time when the wind | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
chooses to blow at the right level. Otherwise they are a monstrosity, | :31:00. | :31:08. | |
they destroy the landscape, they kill birds and bats. They ruin | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
Donald Trump's golf courses. They kill property values. Should | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
Britain turn its back on nuclear or not? No, absolutely not. The French | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
have shown successfully that you can make nuclear power work. The | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
people who were trying to sell this nuclear waste did a very, very poor | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
job of it. I'm sure they could have made a much better case. You, Sir | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
If the problem is finding a community that we need to allow us | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
to dump the waste into, find somewhere where there isn't a | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
community. You have massive deserts where nobody lives and no animal | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
life. So put it there. The man behind you? I agree with what James | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
was saying. We are exploring the shale gas under the Fylde Coast. | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
There are risks associated with that which we are accepting. I | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
think we do need a grown-up debate about where we are going to get our | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
energy from in the future. There is no doubt that fossil fuels won't | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
last forever. We need to combine sustainable together with nuclear. | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
We can't afford to turn our back on nuclear energy. Ewen with -- even | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
with shale gas, what's important is that the communities will benefit | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
from that and should benefit from that. From me, the issue is whether | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
it's nuclear and where the waste is put, whether it's energy in | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
relation to green energy or Fast Tracking, it's vital that the | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
communities are compensated and the communities where it's found get | :32:37. | :32:45. | |
the benefits from it -- Fast Tracking. There is a community -- | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
fracking. The question that Helen asked was... Why can't Cumbria have | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
it? They have Sellafield. question was, should the Government | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
abandon nuclear and concentrate on renewables? We need to do both. | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
There is an important contract announced today with Danish oil and | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
natural gas company will spend �1 billion developing what's called | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
western-most rough field off the coast of East Yorkshire and there | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
are millions of jobs being created in manufacturing wind turbines on | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
and offshore. I don't think anyone who's looked at this sensibly, | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
including the Lib Dems who're against nuclear energy and were | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
before they came into Government, then a Lib Dem minister, Chris | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
Huhne and Ed Davey have both said that it's crucial that we have an | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
element of our electricity generated through nuclear. I think | :33:38. | :33:46. | |
that's right. We want to keep the lights on. If we want to get CO2 | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
emissions down. Nuclear enemy, I mean nuclear energy has to be part | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
of the solution to that. I want to pick up on something that | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
James mentioned about wind power being ghastly and the sight of it. | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
I think the fact that a windfarm when it's decommissioned will take | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
only a matter of weeks to take down is far more favourable than the | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
fact that we are still decommissioning Calder Hall at | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
Sellafield right now. That was decommissioned years ago. | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
APPLAUSE The woman in the third row from the | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
back? You, yes? To get back to the question of Cumbria refusing this | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
offer, what are the Government going to do now? Are they going to | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
renegotiate and spend more money to tempt some area to take this? | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
are the Government going to do, Sayeeda Warsi? That has been a | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
local negotiation and hasn't even got to the stage of planning, it's | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
been a consultation. Now they'll have to move on to see where else | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
they can consult to the long-term planning. That was the last place | :34:50. | :34:57. | |
left wasn't it? I'm not sure it was. It was. How big an area do they | :34:57. | :35:06. | |
need? In your garden? Three Square Miles minimum. Very impressive! | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
much for that? You, Sir? Could we possibly not export it to Scotland | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
and then give them their independence?! | :35:15. | :35:25. | |
:35:25. | :35:27. | ||
APPLAUSE Let's go on to another question | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
from Columbus Scallan, please? Should Prince Charles ask the Queen | :35:32. | :35:40. | |
to go Dutch? Dom Joly? This of course is the | :35:40. | :35:47. | |
Queen of the Netherlands who's retiring, as did her predecessors | :35:47. | :35:55. | |
and her predecessor's predecessor. I have no knowledge of the Royal | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
Family in Holland. I think it's neat she did it on her 75th | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
birthday. You look at Prince Charles and how reformed he is. | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
It's been going on for so long, it feels like Gordon Brown really that | :36:06. | :36:14. | |
in the end if he got there, it would be a terrible | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
disappointment... APPLAUSE | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
I think we should have just been kinder really and somehow | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
circumvented the whole thing and told him a couple of years ago that | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
it's not going to happen, shuffle off, do some gardening and we are | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
going to go straight to William and I think everybody would be happier. | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
I don't know. The Queen does a great job, I have to say. It's a | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
great question, one I didn't expect. But thinking about it... Do you | :36:41. | :36:51. | |
:36:51. | :36:51. | ||
work out everything in advance? try to work out what's coming. | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
Columbus who asked the question, it's a matter for Her Majesty, it's | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
not inconceivable that with the amount of time she's dedicated to | :36:59. | :37:05. | |
this role over so many years that she feels she would like to, much | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
like Queen Beatrice did, have a rest. That's entirely a matter for | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
her. I'm a big fan of Prince Charles, I've got nothing against | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
him at all. Me neither. I'm very pleased that in Parliament we are | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
going through the process of ensuring that it does not | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
automatically pass to the male line and that we bring that particular | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
piece of our constitution into the 21st century, but if Her Majesty | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
wishes to go Dutch, I'm with her. Anybody in the audience have any | :37:35. | :37:45. | |
:37:45. | :37:45. | ||
views? You, Sir, with the spectacles? Lady. Surely our time | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
would be spent better than talking about this tonight. We could think | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
of much better things to talk about. Yes but you shouldn't have put your | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
hand up. APPLAUSE | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
James Delingpole? I know this may well cost me my Knighthood, but I'm | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
not a big fan of Prince Charles. I think the Queen is totally | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
fantastic. She totally understands what it is to be a constitutional | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
Monarch and it's not to make provocative outspoken remarks. We | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
never really know what she thinks, she's just the Queen, she's there | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
for us, she's there for all of us. I worry that Prince Charles takes | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
far too many explicitly political positions, particularly on issues | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
like climate change, which he knows nothing about, he just gets the | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
rubbish fed to him by Al Gore and goes around in his biofuel powered | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
Aston Martin lecturing us. I'm not a fan of Prince Charles and I hope | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
the Queen can carry on for ever or at least until rules take over. | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
Prince Charles is a deeply thoughtful, intelligent man and we | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
should be incredibly proud of the work that she's done on so many | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
fronts. I know him from the work he's done in relation to community | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
cohesion and the amount of work he's done in bringing different | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
faith communities together is really commendable and we should be | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
incredibly proud of the work he does. I don't think - the Queen's | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
just had a tremendous year - we have just celebrated the Jubilee. | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
She's going strong, she's a massive iconic figure for us and a great | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
advert for us around the world and I think I can't see her stepping | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
down and I wouldn't like her to step down. | :39:23. | :39:31. | |
APPLAUSE You, Sir? I think the Queen is a | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
great ambassador for this country, as was displayed last year at the | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
Jubilee celebrations. But Prince Charles is actually a great | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
supporter of Lancashire, especially East Lancashire, and he's been up | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
here on numerous occasions supporting local projects over | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
towards Burnley. Like you say, if she want Toscary on, let her carry | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
on. She's a great ambassador for this country and we should be happy | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
to support her -- if she wants to carry on. | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
I fully accept the Queen is very hard-working, but what I would like | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
to ask is, when will we, the British people, be ever given a | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
choice as to whether we want monarchy? | :40:12. | :40:19. | |
APPLAUSE 2019. Would you like to it be tied | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
in with the referendum or something? Why not, in 2017, we | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
could have a long debate about it. Zoe? I'm afraid I agree with the | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
lady, I don't care who's the Monarch. It could be any one of | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
them. Thank you very much. We can move | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
swiftly on then and you will be pleased that we are leaving the | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
topic and go on to something different. Question from Chris | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
Stoves, please? Should Nick Clegg send his children | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
to private schools? Obviously a question about the | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
wholeish you of private schools which have been coming under attack | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
or at least been trying to defend themselves this week with | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
headmasters saying people who go to private schools are unfairly | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
treated, head mistresses or head teachers going to Switzerland | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
because they say it's too painful to be defending yourself all the | :41:10. | :41:17. | |
time and Nick Clegg saying he'd maeck a choice -- make a choice. | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
It's not about private or public, but it's about what's best for your | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
child, he said. James Delingpole? Why did you pick on me, I wonder?! | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
No idea. You haven't started one before. Is there a reason why I | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
should? A wrote a piece in the paper the other day about boarding | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
school and why it's a jolly good thing. Sorry, I don't read | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
everything you write! You said you were going to be nice to me as a | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
fellow Christchurch man and now you are knifing me! | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
I have no problem whatsoever with MPs sending their children to the | :41:53. | :42:03. | |
:42:03. | :42:03. | ||
best education in the world, provided that they do not endorse... | :42:03. | :42:09. | |
Well I can't stand hypocrisy, particularly among Labour MPs, I'm | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
sure Alan Johnson isn't one of of them, where they sneer at the | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
private system up until the point where I comes to darling Little | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
Johny and suddenly their change their tune and send them off to | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
private school. There's nothing wrong with private schools. It | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
seems they are constantly discriminated against by university | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
admissions, tutors and so on because of this fairness policy we | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
get imposed on us by the coalition unfortunately. But no, I'm not sure | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
what Nick Clegg's position is on private schools, but he's perfectly | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
entitled to choose education. terms of Nick Clegg's role, you | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
know, he will say he believes in the comprehensive system, he will | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
try and influence legislation regarding it, then for him to not | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
send his kids to a comprehensive school, it seems like he doesn't | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
have any faith in it. That sort of seems poor. | :43:06. | :43:14. | |
Like using the NHS and not using private? | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
APPLAUSE Well, I think lots of people | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
perhaps like David Cameron, they use the NHS, they send their kids | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
to comprehensive schools, at least it shows that they believe in the | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
system and that they have a stake in the system. | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
OK. Alan Johnson? It's up to Nick Clegg where he sends his children. | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
Is there an issue about private schools? I think there is. In | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
politics, you deal with what's possible, the art of the possible. | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
There was a time, during the Second World War, where there was a | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
feeling in this country when we should get rid of this system where | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
one group of people are educated in a completely different system. It | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
doesn't happen in many other countries and I think the gap | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
between state education and private education is one of the most | :44:05. | :44:11. | |
pernicious dividing issues in our country. If you look at the | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
judiciary, if you look at the senior Echelons of the Armed Forces | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
and the current Cabinet, you will find that it's that small per | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
scentage of children that went to private schools. I'm not blaming | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
their parents, I'm not blaming them, they have no choice about what | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
school they go to, I think me and Sayeeda are the only state educated | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
panellists here, but if you listen to those who dedicate their time to | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
giving time to disadvantaged kids, they'll tell you that this issue is | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
a big problem in this country, probably one too big for | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
politicians to tackle because of the dealings with the art of the | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
possible. The gentleman there's got a point - how can you talk about | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
state education when you never sent your kids anywhere near it. | :44:59. | :45:09. | |
:45:09. | :45:10. | ||
You, yes? Parents will always want to send their children to the best | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
school they can. If they think paying for it is the way they are | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
going to get it, I see no problem with that. I went to a | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
comprehensive school. I went to an amazing university. If parents can | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
send them to a private school, and can, I don't think there should be | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
an issue. The man in the second row? I would imagine Nick Clegg | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
doesn't have any confidence in the state system because we current I | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
will have an Education Secretary that doesn't have a clue what he is | :45:38. | :45:45. | |
talking about! LAUGHTER Dom Joly? hate this question so much! Why? | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
Well, for loads of reasons. I do feel badly for any politician that | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
has this because I do believe that in some ways, your family life | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
should be separate from whatever... But if you are promoting a certain | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
policy it seems hypocritical if you don't send your kids to that system | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
that you are advocating. I went to a private school. It was a place | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
where it was set up to train people to run India. When India became | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
independent there must have been a meeting at some stage where they | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
said, "What now?" They thought, "Let's carry on." I'm fully trained | :46:18. | :46:25. | |
to run India should it come! LAUGHTER I now live - my kids could | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
go to a good comprehensive and a public school. Everything in me and | :46:31. | :46:38. | |
my wife is going, "Why would we pay money to send our kids there when | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
they can go to a perfectly good comprehensive?" I wish we did | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
abolish public schools, personally. You, Sir? The Labour Party would | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
have gone further than private schools and closed grammar schools | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
as well. Lancaster has a boys and girls grammar school and we have | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
had fantastic... State-funded? State-funded. They were on the list | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
for abolition and they have given fantastic education to this town | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
for hundreds of years. They are still state-funded? Yes. You? | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
went to a private school. My mum made a great amount of sacrifices | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
to send me to it. Why should we penalise that? We should be proud | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
of the fact that people made great sacrifices. We should be proud of | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
the fact that we have some of the best schools in the country. Do you | :47:27. | :47:34. | |
feel like this headmaster - he said private schools, the hatred of | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
private schools is a hatred that dare not speak its name? Do you | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
find a prejudice against you? think there is. There was in the | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
Olympics as well. There was all this penalisation of too many | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
athletes from private schools. Should it matter? It should be | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
about ability and not your background. People who come from | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
privileged backgrounds do tend to be penalised on the grounds they | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
are from those backgrounds. Williams? I don't know where to | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
start. I will stick with Nick Clegg. The thing is he said the private | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
schools system was toxic and divisive. He said that. The | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
question of whether or not he is a hypocrite is ridiculous. Of course | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
he is. There is no such thing as a political belief that doesn't | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
affect your personal decision. There is no such thing as politics | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
for other people's children. You can't make laws so that other | :48:24. | :48:32. | |
people hold them. It is ridiculous. APPLAUSE I've got that off my | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
chest! What I found more problematic about the way | :48:38. | :48:46. | |
politicians do this is that it kind of catastrophises the state system. | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
The state system is so bad we have to betray our principles. It is a | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
shame. The state system is so terrible that we can't be expected | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
as parents to do anything else. The result of that over time has been | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
for a perfectly good state secondary school to be painted as | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
complete sinks because of people like Nick Clegg. It is disgusting. | :49:11. | :49:19. | |
APPLAUSE The Tories said it would be impossible to abolish because it | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
is against the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Do you believe that? | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
The people who call for it to be abolished are the people who are | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
conflicted because they want to send their kids there but they know | :49:29. | :49:36. | |
it is wrong. I don't care whether they are abolished or not. OK. You, | :49:36. | :49:43. | |
Sir? How many MPs would choose to send their children to private | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
school? It's what stops them is the fear of the political flak as so | :49:48. | :49:55. | |
fantastically shown by Malcolm Tucker in The Thick Of It. Let me | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
start with Nick Clegg. One of the things that he has done is he has | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
kept his family out of politics. His wife stays out of politics. His | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
children stay out of politics. We have to be incredibly careful that | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
we start encroaching on people's personal lives unless they start | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
putting their personal lives into the public domain. It has to be a | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
private decision for him and his wife. I think what people like to | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
see in politics is just genuine authenticity, being straight about | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
what you are going to do. If you are going to send them to private | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
school, be straight about it. We have five kids. I have five | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
wonderful kids. Three of them went to state school. Two of them went | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
to independent schools. One of them went to a faith Muslim independent | :50:39. | :50:45. | |
school... That makes six - seven! Of the five, one of them went to a | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
faith Muslim independent school, one went to an Anglican convent | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
school. As long as you are prepared to say this is the way it is, we | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
made choices for our different children and it works for different | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
children. Where the public get annoyed is if you try and be | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
something that you are not and that is why it is good to be straight. I | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
also think if we decide, like I have decided to keep my family out | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
of politics, I think people should stay out of our family lives. | :51:11. | :51:18. | |
The person over there on the right? I would just like to say that the | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
discrimination I suspect people who have gone to private school feel is | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
nothing compared to the discrimination you feel if you | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
haven't had a good enough education and you can't read and write and | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
you have to be humiliated in the sure it is a real discrimination, | :51:35. | :51:45. | |
:51:45. | :51:48. | ||
but I just don't think it is comparable. APPLAUSE We've got five | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
minutes left. A last question from Simon Noble? Polish is now the | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
second language in the UK. Will we need to revise this to Bulgarian or | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
Romanian next year? Yes, this figure came out that nearly 500,000 | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
people in England, in Britain I should say, now speak Polish. The | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
number of people learning French and German is falling. The number | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
of people learning Polish is going up. Alan Johnson, how do you | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
interpret this and the questions about Bulgarian and Romanian | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
immigration next year? I have lots of Polish friends. There has to be | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
a second language. Welsh is - if we take England and Wales and Poland | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
comes third. Anyone who can speak Polish deserves my full admiration. | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
It is a very difficult language to speak. Will this happen with | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
Romania and Bulgaria? This is the issue about January 2014. If I was | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
the EU Commission, I would seek to find a way to put that decision | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
back by four or five years. It is not about an issue of being anti- | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
immigrant. My concern is that if they lift that restriction, then | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
Romania will lose a lot of - and Bulgaria - will lose a lot of their | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
finest talent. I would like to see some kind of GDP measure that says | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
once you have reached that GDP measure, once your country is at a | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
certain level of prosperity, that is when free movement kicks in. If | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
you do that, you can ensure that countries coming in to the EU, who | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
by definition are much poorer and take time, that is why there is | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
seven years, there is a chance to extend that for the sake of that | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
country as well. I think in terms of what happened with the Polish | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
population coming here, history is being rewritten. In 2004/5 I was a | :53:44. | :53:52. | |
Minister at the time. We had a the highest rate of unemployment ever. | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
The reason why us, Sweden and Ireland lifted that restriction | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
early is because our economy - and our employers told us it was | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
necessary to do that. More people came than was expected. You don't | :54:07. | :54:14. | |
think it was a mistake? I disagree with Ed in terms of - in hindsight, | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
you would have a better grasp of the numbers. If you knew that many | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
were coming, you would look at it again. All right. Dom Joly? We have | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
to be swift here. I get what this question is basically about. Are we | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
going to allow people to come into this country? There seems to be - | :54:32. | :54:39. | |
there was something pernicious about saying Polish is our second | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
biggest language. I have a problem if people come in and don't learn | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
English. To me, Polish is (a) the most complicated language in the | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
world. Most Poles speak English anyway. I don't see it as a problem. | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
I hope there will be possibly more control on Romanian and Bulgarians | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
coming in. I have no problem people coming in if they are going to work. | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
If people are coming in to sponge off us, maybe there should be more | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
controls. Do you think it would be possible Sayeeda Warsi to have | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
controls of the kind Alan Johnson has just suggested that the EU | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
might temper the pace of immigration? Is that on the cards? | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
It is the thing we are looking at. At the moment, we can have | :55:21. | :55:27. | |
transition provisions for seven years which means you can delay a | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
country's citizens coming in and exercising their right to free | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
movement for a period of seven years. We need to look at how these | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
countries can be at a certain level before their citizens start moving | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
around. This will be very different to the Polish situation. We did | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
apply these transition provisions for seven years as did lots of | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
other EU countries. They are all going to come off at the same time. | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
If people do want to travel, they will have the option to travel. | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
Traditionally, the Bulgarians and the Romanians have travelled to | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
warmer climates - they prefer Spain over the United Kingdom. I think in | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
terms of the language question that was asked - Polish is the second, | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
Punjabi is the third and Urdu is the fourth. We have a diverse set | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
of languages. I think the dialogue we have about immigration is flawed, | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
like all of the newspapers say they come here and scrounge off our | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
country. Immigrants bring into our economy �1.2 billion more than they | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
take out in benefits. When will the papers start printing a fact like | :56:33. | :56:40. | |
that? APPLAUSE Zoe Williams? I want to ask a question. Is there any | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
truth in the rumour that the Government is putting together | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
posters to stop Bulgarians coming to the UK? There is no truth in | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
that rumour. Can you say it again? There is no truth in the rumour | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
that we are about to put some posters out in Bulgaria and | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
Romania... Because it is not true, or you are not doing it? If you | :57:01. | :57:08. | |
were, what would they be?! Piers Morgan lives here! It hasn't been | :57:08. | :57:18. | |
:57:18. | :57:20. | ||
discussed in Cabinet. If they are doing it, I don't know about it. | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
James Delingpole? Migrationwatch reckons from January 2014, we are | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
going to get 50,000 Bulgarians and Romanians coming in for the next | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
five years. That is the population of Lancaster coming in every year. | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
I think we need to go further than this non-existent movie that you | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
are making! We need to stage an anti-Olympics to put people off | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
coming to Britain. We could have Dom Joly doing the diving. We could | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
serve horse meat burgers... Or you tweeting! Then I fear it would not | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
work. When you have people on the fifth of the average wage, this is | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
a very attractive country. I don't - I think until we get out of the | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
EU, there is nothing we can do about it. OK. We have to stop. | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
Thank you very much. Sorry for those of you who had your hands up | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
still! You should come to Stirling where we will be next week and have | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
another go! The week after that, we will be in Leicester. If you would | :58:20. | :58:28. | |
like to come and join the audience, you can apply at | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
www.bbc.co.uk/questiontime. Or call My thanks to our panellists here | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
and to all of you who came here to Lancaster, to this wonderful | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
building. It's full of lovely marble and great panelled oak and | :58:42. | :58:46. |