Browse content similar to 16/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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in Ipswich, and welcome to Question our audience and our panel, | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
Conservative Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, Labour's Shadow | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
immigration Minister, Chris Bryant, former leader of the Liberal | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Democrats, Charles Kennedy, award-winning journalist and | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
assistant editor of the financial Times, Gillian Tett, and the | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
television producer famous for bringing the brother to our screens | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
and chairman of arts Council England, Peter Bazalgette. -- | :00:46. | :00:56. | |
:00:56. | :01:04. | ||
question. If there was an EU in-out referendum tomorrow, how would you | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
vote, and why? I would vote to stay in. I am passionate that we need to | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
be in the European Union. There was a survey recently, done by the | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
Suffolk Chamber of Commerce, which found that 95% of businesses in | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
Suffolk thought that the EU was essential to them doing future | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
business. And I really worry, when I look round. It is not just the | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
economic benefits of being associated with the largest trading | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
bloc in the world. It is also the fact that we gain influence | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
elsewhere. And I really worry that if we were to cut ourselves off from | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
the European Union we would end up being like a tired old spinster on | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
the side of Europe. We would be completely irrelevant politically. | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
And there is a bit of me, also, that says Ash maybe this is idealistic - | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
but in my lifetime, Spain was a dictatorship, Portugal was a | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
dictatorship by most of the countries of the east of Europe were | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
dictatorships. And all of those countries in my father's lifetime | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
went to war with one another. I am not claiming it is the European | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
Union alone that has stopped war, but I do think it means we have our | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
battles in the chamber in Brussels and Strasbourg, rather than on the | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
battlefields. And that can only be good for a consummate that has been | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
at war for centuries. And what about a reverend? The whole argument about | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
the referendum, is it an unnecessary luxury? What do you make of Philip | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
Hammond saying that he would vote out? Well, he is wrong.What about a | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
referendum at all? I am not ultimately opposed to one. | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
Ultimately being what, when you are an old man? I am an old man already. | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
The only party that has ever given a referendum is the Labour Party. | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
Liberal Democrats offered one. there has been one in my lifetime | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
and that was when there was a Labour government. The law has been changed | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
in the last couple of years so that if there is a big change to the | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
European Union there will be a referendum, and I am happy about | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
that. I relish the idea of referendums. Do I think it is a | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
priority now to have a referendum? No, I do not. Do I think it makes | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
any sense whatsoever to say that in four years time we will have a | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
referendum? No, I think that is bonkers. It means you wave a sword | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
of Damocles over the British economy, uncertainty, instability, | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
nobody knowing whether they should be investing in the United Kingdom | :03:43. | :03:51. | |
for four years. What induced you to tell the world this week that if | :03:52. | :03:59. | |
there were a referendum tomorrow you would vote out? Well, I was asked a | :03:59. | :04:06. | |
question. It took you a long time to answer it. By a very persistent | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
interviewer, about a specific and hypothetical circumstance. If there | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
were an in-out referendum tomorrow. But there is not going to be one. | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
Your Prime Minister refuses to answer. There is a very good reason | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
why there is not going to be. will come to that. Your leader said | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
he would not answer a hypothetical. The Foreign Secretary said he would | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
not answer a hypothetical. What kind of loyalty is it for you to say you | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
would vote out? I was asked a question and answered in a | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
straightforward way. If there was a referendum tomorrow, how would you | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
vote? I prefaced my answer by saying that there will not be a referendum | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
tomorrow. My strong preference would be that we have a mandate to | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
negotiate with the European Union and to see what we can achieve, and | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
then put the question to the British people, which is something, by the | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
way, that only the Conservative party is prepared to do. The Labour | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
Party and the Liberal Democrats party do not trust the British | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
people and would not allow this question to be put to them. What is | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
so bad about the way that things are now that would lead you to vote to | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
get out, and what is it that you would want to see happen to get you | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
to change your mind and vote yes? do not believe the status quo is | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
acceptable, but I do not think the status quo is going to be on offer. | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
The changes that have happened in Europe, the problems in the | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
eurozone, mean that Europe is going to change. There is no question | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
about that. The only question is whether we can help to shape that | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
change in a way that makes Europe a more palatable proposition for the | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
British people, and a way that makes Europe work better for Britain in | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
the things that really matter to people here. What is it you want to | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
see? The things that matter are economic growth, jobs, prosperity, | :05:56. | :06:05. | |
ability to control our borders. would you change? What the | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
government is doing now is undertaking what we call a | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
competencies review. We are going right the way through everything | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
government as, looking at the level of interference we get from | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
Brussels, where we need to seek to repatriate powers, where we need to | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
seek to make muscles more flexible. If we win the next election, we will | :06:23. | :06:30. | |
have a mandate to negotiate. When we have negotiated, so we know what it | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
is we are asking people to be in or out of, we will put the question to | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
the British people and we will trust the electorate to make the decision. | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
So at the moment, in other words, you are like a chef preparing a menu | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
which you are not yet prepared to show. But you will show us. We know | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
we want a European Union which is more outward facing, more flexible, | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
more competitive. These are generalisations. What does that | :06:58. | :07:07. | |
mean? Let's hear from the audience. I broadly agree with Mr Hammond. I | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
think there is no doubt that we have seen in the last few years a more | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
diverging, more coming together in Europe, but it seems to be more now | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
political, and it probably has to be because of the problems with the | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
euro. The only way forward out of that is for more political coming | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
together. As we have seen with the march of UKIP recently, there are a | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
lot of people very uncertain in the general public about whether that is | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
the right way to go. I think the Tory approach now, of let's just | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
have a renegotiation when what we really want is a country out of | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
Europe, the time is right and I think it is a reasonable policy to | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
get it on the table. You see the Tories as saving the electorate from | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
UKIP? I would not quite put it that way. We would have to say Nigel | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
Farage has certainly brought to the table a lot of the discussion in the | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
general public that we had not been hearing so much in Westminster of | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
late. It has got it back on the agenda and I think we need to go | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
through. It has been 30 years since the last referendum. That decide | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
once and for all where we are going with this. | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
If I was asked how I would vote today, I would vote to stay in, | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
although I appreciate the issue is becoming more tangled. Three | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
reasons. Firstly, 50% of UK trade is with the European Union. Secondly, | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
the city of London would find it very hard to maintain a pre-eminent | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
position outside the European Union. To think the French and Germans | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
would let the city carry on dominating Euro trade would be like | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
asking the Americans to have their financial centre in Toronto. It will | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
not happen. Thirdly, the point that Chris raised about influence on the | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
world stage is very important. The Americans made clear, in public and | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
in private, that the UK without being part of Europe would simply | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
not punch its weight. What do you make of the impact of people like | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
Philip Hammond, who have said that they would leave if the vote was | :09:11. | :09:18. | |
tomorrow? Has it had a destabilising effect, as some are claiming? | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
had a destabilising effect on the debate. But I think he raises an | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
important point. Vince Cable was saying it is damaging already. | :09:27. | :09:37. | |
Sunday? Yes. If you talk to people in the city of London it raises | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
questions about where people will locate business in future. But I | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
would agree that Europe is changing at the moment. The question was, if | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
you were asked today how you would vote, the reality is that Europe is | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
at a crossroads right now. It is like a bad marriage. It is going to | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
make up or break up. If they have to make a decision about the euro, and | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
it will not work unless they come together more closely, or do not. | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
am delighted Philip Hammond would say we should come out of the EU, | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
but I do not understand why you are indecisive as a party. You should | :10:16. | :10:25. | |
give us a choice. We are asking for that. We are in a coalition | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
government. We do not have the ability to do that now. We could not | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
get it agreed as part of a government programme. Why is it that | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
Nigel Farage is doing so well saying this when you are not giving us that | :10:37. | :10:47. | |
:10:47. | :10:48. | ||
choice? Are you powerless? The truth about coalition government is that | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
you have two agree a programme that you both agree on. But don't you | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
want to be elected next time, not be in a coalition? That is why people | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
are voting UKIP. They are saying, we want out now, and the Conservatives | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
are not giving it to us. With respect, the Conservatives have | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
published a draft Bill. I don't want paper, I want out. The Prime | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
Minister never even asked the leader of the Liberal Democrats whether he | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
could have a bill in this Parliament. If you were in the | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
chamber yesterday and you heard what the leader of the Liberal Democrats | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
said, you would know his position. You have been misleading. The prime | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
Mr never asked the Liberals for such a bill. This Prime Minister is not | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
master of his own destiny, or of his own party. He was forced to do it. | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
Who would you like to see lead the Tories? I think Michael Gove is a | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
good choice. I think there are a view good choices. What about Boris | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
Johnson? Why not Boris? We have a Liberal Democrat who has not spoken | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
yet. Charles Kennedy. Just keeping my counsel. What a shame for these | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
poor Conservatives. It is these beastly, horrible, violent Liberal | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
Democrats that are messing everything up. In case you missed | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
it, 100 Tory MPs voted against and Cameron last night in the House of | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
Commons. But that has nothing to do with it. It is all Nick Clegg's | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
fault. They must think you are stupid if you are going to buy that | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
line. How would I vote if there was a referendum tomorrow? | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
Unequivocally, positively, enthusiastically, for Britain to | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
stay in Europe. And one of the reasons I would do so is because | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
Europe needs reform. It is at a crossroads, and it could fragment, | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
to everybody's even greater instability than we are experiencing | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
at the moment. All it could get its act together. But it will not get | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
its act together if a big player like Britain decides we are going to | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
take our ball and go home. We should use our influence and credibility. | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
The other point is this - it is a pleasure as always to contribute to | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
this panel on Question Time in Ipswich. The last but one time I | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
contributed, I was in Inverness. Inverness and Ipswich are both part | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
of a union, a very successful one, called the United Kingdom. | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
Conservative party's full title, the Conservative and Unionist party. | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
There is not a hypothetical referendum going on within the UK, | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
folks. There is one happening in Scotland at the moment, and if we | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
lose that referendum it will be the end of the United Kingdom. I would | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
suggest to our Conservative colleagues in coalition that the | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
Conservative and Unionist party should worry about getting base camp | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
established first, maintaining the union that is the United Kingdom, | :13:51. | :14:00. | |
and then worry about reforming the union that is Europe. Some more from | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
our audience. Shook the government be spending so much time talking | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
about an EU referendum when there are so many promising things in the | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
Queens speech? Advances in technology, sources of new growth in | :14:17. | :14:27. | |
the country. Peter Bazalgette? distrust the SERPSty. I say bring it | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
on and let's have the discussion. APPLAUSE | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
There are about 100 Conservative MPs. If you say Europe to them, | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
their eye balls start to roam and they foam at the mouth. There are | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
people madly in favour. I don't know what the questioner thinks, but I'm | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
not sure if we had a referendum we could hear the arguments. What I | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
find fascinating about the European issue and the political scene is | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
that it really is a one point in which people get ideologically | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
passionate. No-one's arguing about the fiscal problems with such anger. | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
It's a bit like the guns and the republican part any many America, | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
people foam at the mouth on both sides. Faye Miller, do you want to | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
answer the question that Peter Bazalgette asked? Yes, 2017 is | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
ridiculously late for a referendum. It's not only shutting the stable | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
door after the horse has bolted, it's already gone around the field a | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
few times, hasn't it? And we haven't heard anything from David Cameron | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
about what the benchmarks are for renegotiation, so we can only base | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
our view on what we know now which isn't relevant. | :15:39. | :15:46. | |
Yes. You, there, on the fourth row from the back? If the UK leaves the | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
EU, and then Scotland leaves the UK, where does that leave us? England, | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland? What shall we be called? In the | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
independent Republic of Ipswich! The gentleman at the back there? | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
APPLAUSE I've never known an election | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
campaign to start two-and-a-half years before it's ever been there, | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
chucking out the fishes, hoping everybody's going to run over here. | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
Let's concentrate on this country, try and get back opt path that we | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
have and keep saying I'm on the right track justlet isn't good | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
enough, I'm afraid. This gentleman is right. There are more pressing | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
issues than this, but we cannot avoid this debate because the | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
eurozone Crill crisis means that Europe, after the German elections, | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
are was of the way, is going to have to the debate how it restructures to | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
make the eurozone work and it's in our interest, even though we are not | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
in it, that the euro survives and prospers. We can stand on the side | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
Lymes of that debate and then we'll be left facing a stark choice of | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
whether to join in something that may be a much closer Yahoo! Onion | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
than the British people are prepared to accept, or we can try and shape | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
the debate around possibly a multitiered Europe where there are | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
things that can join in the single market, cooperation where it makes | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
sense, without having to be dragged into all this ever closer political | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
fiscal union. All this jargon, what does it mean? Ees's talk about | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
something practical. You would never vote no. Noim not going to vote to | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
leave the European Union. Whatever. If the European... You are asking a | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
hypothetical question. The European arrest warrant - the Conservatives | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
want us to leave the European arrest warrant and Europol and eurojust, | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
the organisations that ended up getting that man arrested in Spain | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
the other day and brought back here, unluke Ronnie Biggs years ago who | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
could live in Spain on the Costa Dell crime for years. That's going | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
off the subject? It's not.Growth and the economy, the jobs. The first | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
things I mentioned. All right. As you say, the election campaign | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
started here and we'll be stopping on this in a moment, but let me just | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
move on. The lady on the left? grew up in a country that didn't | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
aassociationiate with the rest of the world for a lot of its history. | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
Where was that? I was brought up in the US. Yes? | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
And one of the problems is that we didn't get with the rest of the | :18:24. | :18:31. | |
world until late on to the war. In other decisions, we seemed to stand | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
out. We've noticed from the current government that they don't take care | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
of the people that are in their country very well. And now they want | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
to get out from another group that they are not getting along very well | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
with. We are marginalising a whole bunch of people over a period of | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
time. Becoming an isolation isolationist tendency place? If the | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
Conservatives continue along the path that they are in, yes. | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
Thank you very much. I think we will go on. Apologies to those who still | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
have your hands up. Before I do, you can join in the debate if you are | :19:11. | :19:21. | |
:19:21. | :19:31. | ||
to listeners to BBC Radio Five Live who are hearing Question Time for | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
the first time without having to see our faces which must be a blessed | :19:34. | :19:42. | |
relief! Welcome to you all, I hope you are enjoying it. A question from | :19:42. | :19:52. | |
:19:52. | :19:56. | ||
Gillan Scott, please? Was Margaret Hodge right to describe Google's tax | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
arrangements as evil? Gillian Tett? I think the practices from Google | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
were unethical, but they were legal and unfortunately, what Governments | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
need to accept is, if they are going to complain about what groups like | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
Google have done, they should look to themselves and their own tax | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
regime. The issue of cross border tax avoidance, not evasion, but | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
avoidance, is a very big one. It's been growing for a number of years. | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
Frankly, without real cooperation, it's going to be very hard, if not | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
impossible, for any one Government to ever tackle it. If you ever | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
wanted a reason why things like the European Union, why international | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
cooperation matters, something like Google's tax story is absolutely a | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
good example of that. All the sound and fury from Margaret Hodge, | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
justified? I think it's right that she's raising the issue. People | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
should have been talking about this four or five years ago. | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
Unfortunately though, it's not good enough to simply point the finger at | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
the companies, you should be looking at the Governments too. Chris | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
Bryant? APPLAUSE | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
I think Margaret Hodge has done a brilliant job at revealing some of | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
what has been going on and putting people on the spot. I worry. Today I | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
saw her today starting the evidence and she was effectively say, please | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
don't lie to us and that's been a worrying trend that people have | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
given evidence to Parliament which is not about whether they are lying | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
to me, but whether they are lying to the country, you know, and I think | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
that that is a really worrying development. People should tell the | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
truth. Of course, I understand that businesses try to be as tax | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
official, that's what they call it, as possible. That's their legal duty | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
actually. But, we all know that Google's doing business here, we all | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
know that Amazon's doing business here, they can't pretend not to have | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
any business here and therefore not pay any taxes. Frankly, that is the | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
version of shirking that is going on in this country and we need to | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
expose it and change the law, we need to make sure we do that jointly | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
with other countries. There's one bit that I tried to deal with, which | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
was the overseas territories that are British, like the vinyling | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
Islands and Turks and Caicos where they have virtually no tax area at | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
all. When they wanted to borrow money and needed my permission, I | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
said you can't have it unless you are going to diversify your tax base | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
so you can't be a tax haven any more. The new Government let them | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
borrow as they wanted? Government should be making the | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
rules very clear now going forward and clamp down strongly on companies | :22:38. | :22:46. | |
that evade or avoid. To go back retrospectively... HMRC needs to | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
answer in this, but where Parliament can expose something like that, | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
Government can move in and change the rules. But it does have an | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
effect, because Starbucks, for example, has been losing custom and | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
is now less popular than it was. don't go there any more. Really?No. | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
That must make a big difference to them. Nobody buys my books on Amazon | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
either! You, there? We need to ask ourselves | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
why a company is trying to avoid paying tax, is it because the taxes | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
are too high? Maybe we should think about lowering their taxes and they | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
will be less likely to try to avoid paying them? It's an international | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
law issue as well. The EU, you can move an office to Dublin, Ireland, | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
in the EU, and then save taxes. That does need to be fixed | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
internationally. I'm not sure Margaret Hodge is right to call | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
Google eel because they are not breaking the law, but it's very | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
worrying. I have to tell you, small arts and cultural organisations pay | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
�1. 6 billion tax a year and if they can pay that amount of tax, when | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
they are under enormous pressure and doing a wonderful job for our | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
quality of life, I don't see why Google couldn't pay a bit more tax | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
but we'll have to fix it generally and internationally. | :24:09. | :24:16. | |
APPLAUSE I've got a small business myself, | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
very small, less than ten people, but if there's I don't know, �10 out | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
wrong with the tax I'm paying, HMRC jump on it straightaway, there's no | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
way out of it. I don't understand how they couldn't see the millions | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
and where they should have been. say very small. Companies with ten | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
employees with big business in the economy as a whole. They must be the | :24:38. | :24:45. | |
majority, mustn't they? Possibly. We are not paying that much tax! | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
Assuming you do pay the tax you have to, I hope you Stu will be, if you | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
know what I mean? ! Yes. The gentleman there? What would be | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
the situation if I was to sit back and say I have an office in Dublin, | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
as a self-employed person, HMRC wouldn't take that from myself, they | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
would sit back and suddenly I would be sitting in doing longer than two | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
months in jail. Why is it different for a company that size or for | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
myself? Philip Hammond? The British people have a strong sense of | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
fairness, what's right and what's wrong. At the margins, there might | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
be some issues, but when they see a company turns over billions and | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
paying no tax, they sure as hell know that that is wrong. We have got | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
to tackle it at two levels. We have got to make sure that companies pay | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
tax somewhere, first of all, because seem of the companies are moving | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
money around the world so they don't pay any tax anywhere. Secondly, | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
we've got to make sure, and this is something that we have to discuss | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
internationally, we have to make sure there is an agreed way in an | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
Internet-based world, of deciding where the profits of companies | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
properly belong and who should be taxing what so that they are proper | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
and fair shares for the companies and the countries in which the | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
companies do business. The Prime Minister has made it clear that that | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
agenda is going to be one of his main themes at the G8 next month | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
where we'll be hosting in Northern Ireland the world's biggest | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
economies leaders and sorting out international tax evasion and the | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
way in which we share tax revenues internationally, including making | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
sure that developing countries get their fair share of the tax that is | :26:31. | :26:39. | |
generated from operations in their countries. E U could... Last time I | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
checked, the Cayman Islands was not in the EU. But Ireland is. The man | :26:45. | :26:51. | |
in the middle? If we have known about this problem and issue for | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
four or five years, as the panel said, why haven't we been able to | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
deal with it ourselves and at least try and clamp down? Four or five or | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
ten or 20? Five years ago, I took part in a debate on this at a | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
festival with Christian Aid and another group and it was very | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
sparsely attended. People weren't interested. The good news about what | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
we are talking about today is that if there is now, as Philip Hammond | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
said, an attempt by Governments to address the issue and get more tax, | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
that may go some way to plugging the big fiscal black hole. | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
The key word "evil", do you think it was "evil" of Google to avoid | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
playing British -- paying British tax and pay a small amount in | :27:34. | :27:41. | |
Ireland instead I'm concerned that I'm the guru on "evil"? ! Moral | :27:41. | :27:48. | |
arbiter tonight? ! My God, we are in trouble! It's an interesting point | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
and goes beyond the issue, but, you know, we can all cite examples of | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
politicians using irresponsible language, inflammatory language, | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
whether inside the House of Commons or out there on the street, although | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
there's laws that can control you in terms of what you can and cannot say | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
on the street. On the other hand, there is a responsible role for any | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
politician to use language in a way which grabs people's attention and | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
puts perhaps a moral dimension into an issue that needs to be there. The | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
use of this world "evil" in this context you could argue either way, | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
but it's certainly done that. The interesting thing about the events | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
at the committee was the extent to which the chap from Google was | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
having a particularly hard time because the committee, particularly | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
the chair, was able to cite all this evidence which came from | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
whistleblowers within the organisation. That, in a way, | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
although not ideal for the whistleblower, or for the rest of | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
us, Philip Hammond's point is correct, there is an innate sense of | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
fair play, not least amongst the employees who don't like what's been | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
going on, and following on from this point about chasing it up, I don't | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
think it's disputed, the figures from the experts show that for every | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
extra pound that you invest in trying to track down people not | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
paying tax, you get about �9 back. To be fair to the Government, | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
they've just put in �150 million extra over the next couple of years | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
and that should yield, if this theory works, in excess of �1 | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
billion coming into into the coffers from all of us to benefit from at | :29:30. | :29:39. | |
the moment so it's not all doom and gloom. This use of the word evil is | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
a play on words. Google has 70-80% of the search traffic, a dominant | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
position in its market, it's a brilliant public facility, but with | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
that dominant position comes a lot of public responsibility. It's going | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
to have to do a lot better if it's going to fulfil its public | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
responsibility in return for its dominant position in the market | :29:57. | :30:07. | |
:30:07. | :30:09. | ||
place. It's a competition issue as It is a big conscious -- conscience | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
issue. Companies are taking from society by giving very little back. | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
The attitude we have seen this morning from the select committee is | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
that we do not care. Philip made a good point about developing | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
countries. I think the figure is around about $160 billion a year | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
which is lost from tax avoidance in developing countries. You think that | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
is going to be affecting healthcare and education. People's lives in | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
some countries are not going to be as good as they could be. Do you | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
think it is legitimate for countries to make the tax arrangements as lean | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
as they can? They are running big corporations and have shareholders | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
and they want to make a profit so they can expand. Is that reasonable, | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
or should they say, I think we will volunteer, in effect, to pay tax in | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
Britain because we do business there? That is why it is important | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
there is an international agreement. The G8 thing is important. There are | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
180 charities in this country working under one banner because | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
they realise it is really important and it will make a huge difference | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
if we can do something about it, but it needs government is working | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
together or it is never going to work. Do you think it was evil of | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
Google to behave as they do? Pope has described it as a sin and | :31:30. | :31:39. | |
he does not like it, so maybe, yes. The Pope? Yes.You can give way to | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
the Pope, Charles Kennedy, as our moral arbiter of autumn night. | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
did notice today that one leading conservative Euro-sceptic, when this | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
private members bill came top of the ballot, he said this proves that God | :31:56. | :32:03. | |
is a Euro-sceptic. And as a Catholic I thought, surely if anyone in the | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
universe is left that still believes in the Treaty of Rome it has to be | :32:06. | :32:16. | |
:32:16. | :32:21. | ||
the Almighty. A question from Matthew Pickhaver. More than 656,000 | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
people have signed an online petition opposing the redefinition | :32:24. | :32:31. | |
of marriage. Is it not time the government rethought its plan? | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
are ahead of the game. This is coming up in the House of Commons on | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
Monday and Tuesday, a debate on gay marriage and whether it should | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
become legalised. Peter Bazalgette. It is row simple. Gay people and | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
straight people should have exactly the same rights to marriage, civil | :32:49. | :32:58. | |
partnership, anything else. And it is a perfect the clear proposition. | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
One more thing, I have a very clear memory from just before the last | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
general election. I was in the West End of London and I met Chris Bryant | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
in the street and we had a quick chat. He was buying a suit because | :33:10. | :33:20. | |
he was about to have his civil partnership. This suit.Very nice. | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
Just before his civil partnership, crisp Bryant was a very happy man, | :33:24. | :33:33. | |
and that is good enough for me. -- Chris Bryant. That is not quite the | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
issue, is it rest of the issue is marriage, as opposed to civil | :33:37. | :33:44. | |
partnership, which is already the law. And the 650,000 people who are | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
signing this are against the concept of marriage. Direct replies that. I | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
made my position clear in the first answer. Gay people and straight | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
people should have exactly the same rights. The reason I mention the | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
story about Chris is that that is what makes people happy, and we want | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
people to be happy. At the risk of sounding boring, like an old married | :34:08. | :34:15. | |
couple, I would thoroughly agree. It is a personal choice. You have an | :34:15. | :34:24. | |
interesting view about old married couples! There may be 650,000 people | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
who signed the petition, but how many more people in the country are | :34:27. | :34:37. | |
in favour of gay marriage? As a Muslim, I still think people | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
should have an equal right in society, whatever your religion is. | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
You are living in the 20th century, the modern world. You can live | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
side-by-side without having any differences, and get along with each | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
other. At the end of the day, you are going to live and die, and | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
whatever happens in the after-world, it is for God to decide, not for you | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
to decide. Are you saying that despite being a Muslim you support | :35:06. | :35:15. | |
the notion of gay marriage? Yes. I wonder what Jesus would have | :35:15. | :35:22. | |
thought on the subject. Because Jesus loved everyone. I am sure he | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
loved gay people, straight people. I have loaned -- known lots of lovely | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
gay people and lots of horrible heterosexuals. I think it is | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
disgusting that it is even discussed. | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
I agree with the gentleman on the left that everyone should be given | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
equal rights. It does not affect anyone else who is currently in a | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
marriage if someone else decides to get married. It is not about | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
redefining marriage, but about opening it up to all people. If you | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
are in a marriage, it does not affect you. If you are signing a | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
petition to suggest you do not agree with it, fantastic. But there will | :35:59. | :36:09. | |
:36:09. | :36:09. | ||
be an awful lot more people that support it. Well, I have not been a | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
supporter of the same-sex marriage bill. But I am resigned to the fact | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
that I am in a minority and that it will pass through Parliament. I | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
think before we had civil partnership, people who were in | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
same-sex relationships suffered some real disability, some real | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
disadvantage in the way they were treated. And I think the civil | :36:33. | :36:41. | |
partnership solution has removed those disadvantages. The problem | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
that many people who object to this change now have is that, contrary to | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
what the gentleman who spoke last said, this change does redefine | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
marriage. It means for millions and millions of people who are married, | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
the meaning of marriage is changed. And there is a real sense of anger | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
among many people who are married, that the government thinks it has | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
the ability, any government, thinks it has the ability to change the | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
definition of an institution like marriage. And that is why the people | :37:16. | :37:23. | |
who are opposed to this feel so very, very strongly about it. | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
you are one of them, you feel strongly in that way? I do not feel | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
strongly about this because I come at it from a point of view of | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
religious conviction. Many of those who object have strong religious | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
convictions. I have just never felt that this is what we should be | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
focusing on. We have civil partnership, which seems to deal | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
with the very real problem that same-sex couples faced. And it seems | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
to me that there was no huge demand for this, and we did not need to | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
spend a lot of parliamentary time and upset vast numbers of people, | :37:59. | :38:08. | |
vast numbers of people, in order to do this. I just think everybody | :38:09. | :38:17. | |
should be treated equally under the law. It is very simple. | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
Incidentally, the government was my version of the bill coming forward | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
on Monday says that homosexual couples, same-sex couples will be | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
able to either be in a civil partnership or be married, but | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
heterosexuals will only be able to form marriage is. I think we should | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
have both for everybody. It should be exact with the same for | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
everybody. I have always felt slightly upset when people say this | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
will completely undermine marriage. The papal nuncio once told me, he | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
asked me how my wife was, and I said, he is a man. And he said, do | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
you mean very butch? I said, no, he is a man, I am a homosexual. He | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
said, you know you will do more damage to this world than climate | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
change? You laugh, and I laughed at the time because it was a social | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
engagement. But I just say to some people, who may be passionately | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
opposed to this move, just wing of how you advance your arguments, | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
because it can be very, very painful to some people. -- just think of how | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
you advance your arguments. And to Philip, I would accept your argument | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
more if you had ever voted for an equal age of consent, for gays to be | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
allowed to adopt, for gays in the military to be able to pursue their | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
career, or for that matter if you had voted for civil partnerships. | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
There have been 23 votes since you have been in Parliament on these | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
issues and on 12 of them you have not even bother to turn up, on 11 | :39:52. | :40:02. | |
:40:02. | :40:03. | ||
you have voted against. There were a number of people applauding what | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
Philip Hammond said. Would any of you like to speak? Speak fearlessly, | :40:08. | :40:15. | |
because this is an open debate. have a lot of gay friends, and I | :40:15. | :40:22. | |
have never in my life had anything, any views against people being day. | :40:22. | :40:31. | |
That is society. But I believe that marriage is something that possibly | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
we are playing around with a little bit too much. Marriage, and I could | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
be wrong here, is described in the Bible, a book that has been around | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
for a lot more years than openly gay people, described in the Bible as | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
where a man and a woman come together. It is a religious matter, | :40:52. | :41:00. | |
for you? Personally, yes. Me and my wife, coming in front of God and | :41:00. | :41:07. | |
being blessed by God with the name of marriage. I don't believe gay | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
couples should have any different rights to straight couples, but I | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
kind of think it would be nice to keep a hold of that, the name | :41:15. | :41:24. | |
marriage. I am religious as well, I used to be a vicar and have married | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
more people probably than anybody else in the room, if you see what I | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
mean. I know some very horrible day people, as well, to the lady in the | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
back. That is a different matter. In the book of Common prayer was | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
produced in the 16th century and the 17th century, which the Church of | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
England has used for years, it said one of the reasons for marriage was | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
neutrals -- mutual support one for another. I suspect that in most | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
marriages that is as important as bringing up children or anything | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
else, and I do not see that a gay couple are not as entitled to do | :41:59. | :42:08. | |
that as anybody else. Why doesn't need to be labelled as marriage? Why | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
can't a gay couple a civil partnership as where they have come | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
together? Because we are the same. In the end, it is that thing about | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
being equal under the law. The thing that changes is that you bind | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
families together when they can come to that event and celebrate, because | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
they have bought new suits, or whatever. It is just a really | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
important part of that binding together of a couple and of | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
societies. The issue I have is not necessarily whether or not gay | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
people should be allowed to be married, but there are religious | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
leaders who are very opposed to it. I know that you were a vicar, but | :42:50. | :43:00. | |
:43:00. | :43:01. | ||
there are vicars who stop -... They would not wish to marry a gay couple | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
because of religious beliefs. I do not think there is as much | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
protection as has been claimed for them, in the sense that had they | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
opposed marrying a gay couple, people could then come back at them | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
and say, actually, that is not fair, it is inequality and you should not | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
be allowed to do that. And so you cannot bring in a bill where it is | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
OK for them to do it. You are frightened they will not be | :43:25. | :43:33. | |
protected? My understanding is that there are very sufficient safeguards | :43:33. | :43:42. | |
in this legislation already. The three of us in the Commons here - I | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
am with the majority view on the panel, and have no difficulty with | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
this legislation in principle. I think the conduct of the debate in | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
Parliament, and this is not about party politics, I think it has to be | :43:54. | :44:01. | |
reflective of the very strong and sincere views that an awful lot of | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
people in this country have, and the genuine anxieties. Whether it is up | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
-- whether it is in a professional sense, like clerics, or whether it | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
is individual heterosexual couples who feel the equilibria of their | :44:15. | :44:22. | |
life, they're up ringing their attitudes are being rocked by all of | :44:22. | :44:30. | |
this. How do you reflect that if you are going to change the law? In the | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
process of changing the law, we have to offer the reassurance that we | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
can. The case about clerics who may be put in a difficult legal | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
position, we have to get messages of reassurance which are there, out. | :44:42. | :44:48. | |
But I hope that one day, maybe beyond our lifetimes in this room to | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
night, this issue, historically, will be looked at a way that we now | :44:53. | :45:03. | |
:45:03. | :45:06. | ||
look at votes for women, or the abolition of slavery. | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
APPLAUSE And when the change comes, we won't | :45:09. | :45:15. | |
apply the pressment of time and say, how awful were the people that | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
apposed it, but we may understand better that when you have a huge | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
social change for people, it's hardly surprising it will cause | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
distress. Another couple of questions in, if I | :45:26. | :45:35. | |
can. Mary Hullis, please? I can I just come back on that, please? | :45:36. | :45:45. | |
:45:46. | :45:48. | ||
Briefly? The 66,000 people have signed a petition for gay marriage | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
and 600, 656,000 people, that's the largest petition for years. But...y | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
can I finish and make it clear. It's not about equality but it's about | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
confusing equality with uniformity, right. All people are equal. I | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
believe, as a Christian, that we are all equal. We are all equal in the | :46:06. | :46:13. | |
eyes of God, I quality sinners in the eyes of God. The word "marriage" | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
means, union of one man, one woman exclusion you havely. It's about | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
celebrating the differences between men and women, complimentary but | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
fundamental differences and about the potential for procreation. Love | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
and commitment is an important part of marriage but you can't legislate | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
for that or measure that. You have to legislate for things like where | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
the law is concerned with consumation and about divorce laws | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
and you cannot redefine something that is a creation ordinance, you | :46:44. | :46:50. | |
might as well try and redefine day or night. I'll be very quick. I | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
won't argue about religion because it sounds to me as though you know | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
rather more about religion than I do. What I will point out is that | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
your statisticical point is not valid. 656,000 people care to vote | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
about it. Take the sentiment in this room tonight, it's against you | :47:07. | :47:14. | |
actually. APPLAUSE | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
All right. The points have been made. A question from Mary Hullis, | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
please? Do you believe that the new evidence about possible gas attacks | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
in Syria crosses the red line for intervention? This is the news BBC | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
carried today that gas has been used in Syria. President Obama said that | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
was the red line for him. How should this change things and should it | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
lead to intervention? I would like you to be fairly swift in answering | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
this because I want to get another question in, if I can. Chris Bryant? | :47:47. | :47:54. | |
I'm not in favour of intervention. I'm also wanting Britain to be very, | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
very reluctant about military intervention that puts British | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
troops in harm'sway in this. I do worry about the weapons of mass | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
destruction and I understand that many people in the country may feel | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
very troubled that we are going through a story that we went through | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
ten years ago. But, I do worry that, in a situation where you have got a | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
Civil War, effectively, the danger is, some of that mightlet get into | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
the hands of people that we don't want it in their hands. I feel very | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
angry with the Russians because the Russian position on Syria's been | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
disgraceful for more than a year and if they joined the international | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
community, and China, a year ago, we might have been able to act in a way | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
that prevented Assad doing the terrible things he's doing in that | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
country without having to think about the dangers that we are facing | :48:42. | :48:49. | |
now. APPLAUSE | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
Do you think the time has now come, Philip Hammond, to arm the rebels in | :48:53. | :48:59. | |
Syria? ?y on that specific question, we have certainly not taken off the | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
table the possibility of choosing to arm the rebels and we have said that | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
we'll seek an amendment of the E U arms embargo so we have the flexible | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
to use in response if necessary to what is a fast-changing situation. | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
Are you influenced by the evidence of gas? With the greatest of respect | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
to the BBC, I've seen some video foot footage on the Six o'clock | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
news, I haven't seen any more detail than that. We have had some quite | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
persuasive information coming out of Syria over the last few weeks | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
suggesting that gas may have been used but haven't yet had what | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
amounts to concrete evidence of the use usage of chemical weapons. We | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
need to apply a high standard of proof here and we need to be | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
automobile to go to the international community with | :49:50. | :49:58. | |
evidence that stands up. All of us, remember what happened in 2003 in | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
Iraq. No-one wants to set hares running, we have to make sure if we | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
go out there and say this, what would be a war crime, has been | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
committed through the use of chemical weapons, we have to be sure | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
that we have hard evidence, not a sexed up dossier. We have to have | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
hard evidence. So I don't think that I have seen yet evidence which is | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
sufficiently strong to we are suede frankly a very sceptical British | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
people. We know from survey after survey that the British people, as | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
Chris has reflected, are very, very wary about an engagement in Syria, | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
even though they are, I'm sure, appalled by the shocking events | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
there and the terrible treatment that's being meted out to the Syrian | :50:43. | :50:51. | |
population by the regime. Charles Kennedy? Well, the evidence | :50:51. | :50:58. | |
is inconclusive. That's for sure. It's good to hear my colleague speak | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
in in these sombre terms, it's a hell of a sombre issue this, and | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
it's a lot better than the way things were ten years ago. I | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
remember what it felt like in the House of Commons being the only | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
party leader questioning the Iraq strategy and getting scant support | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
from either of the other two parties at the time. We've all learnt | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
lessons. Perhaps most importantly, the American public and their | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
politicians have learnt the lesson of George Bush and I was much | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
encouraged enyou think what Donald Rumsfeld was like as Defence | :51:30. | :51:38. | |
Secretary, the man who said "stuff happens", that was his analytical | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
perceptiveness about Iraq at the time. His successor in office today | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
working to Obama, Chuck Hagel, has made categorically clear that | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
whatever needs to be done, if this is the red line fanned it has been | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
crossed, and these are two very big ifs at the moment, for the reasons | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
the Defence Secretary just pointed out, the Americans, and the same for | :52:00. | :52:07. | |
us, are no are not going to do anything that are outside the | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
parameters of legality. Easy wish to God we'd heard that ten years ago | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
from George Bush. We are still living with the consequences of | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
Guantanamo and illegality. It looks serious but we must look again | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
before we leap and I couldn't agree more - if we can get particularly | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
the other significant members of the Security Council at the UN on board | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
and get inspectors into Syria, that has to be the first concrete | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
political steps. You, Sir? I don't believe actually | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
this is about Syria itself because I don't believe that Assad has woken | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
up one day and decided to butcher up his people. I believe this is about | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
resources that come from the Middle East, Iran, Iraq and so on and so | :52:53. | :53:00. | |
forth, the Western world and the rest of the world realise that. I | :53:00. | :53:07. | |
really think we shouldn't engage in Syria, we should be out of it. | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
APPLAUSE The woman at the back there? | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
I don't believe it's necessarily helpful to compare the such weighs | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
in Syria with Iraq. Iraq wasn't justified. Our involvement in Syria | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
perhaps is. Gillian Tett? The situation is very | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
embarrassing for President Obama because he drew the red line with | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
the chemical weapons thinking it wouldn't be breach and it has been. | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
Do you believe it has been? certainly looks that way, as Philip | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
Hammond said, we need to see the hard evidence first. The one thing | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
that's clear is it's going to get more embarrassing for the British | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
and American Governments as you go forward, because you have had | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
Western leaders sitting indecisively on the side Lymes, this is | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
spiralling town a wider regional conflict and there won't be any easy | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
answers at all -- sidelines. Peter Bazalgette? We can only go into | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
Syria if we have international agreement. We didn't have it with | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
Iraq, we had it with Bosnia, that's what we need. Until we have | :54:11. | :54:18. | |
agreement from Russia, we can't go APPLAUSE | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
You, Sir, briefly? Just to pick up on Charles Kennedy's point, are the | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
Assad regime ever going to allow international observers into Syria? | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
I think that... We must insist on it. The international community must | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
insist upon it. But how?But Assad will have to go. Of course. We'll | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
move on. Just to end on a completely different note, but equally serious, | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
Susan Gardner has a question, please? As a woman over 50, is my | :54:51. | :55:01. | |
:55:01. | :55:06. | ||
best way of getting on television to be on the Question Time audience? | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
LAUGHTER I don't know whether it's your best | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
chance but you 've certainly succeeded? ! Bazalgette, you are the | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
former television man and know how it works? The first thing I would | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
like to say is, Susan, could you introduce me to your agent because | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
clearly you should have a future career in television and things are | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
moving in your favour because I think people are now aware of the | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
injustice of not having older women properly represented on screen. I | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
think it will change and I think it should change and Susan, you will be | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
the first person we'll call when the time comes. Why do you think it's | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
happened? Why is there this absence of women? Because historically | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
television has been run by men. you? Like you as well.I've never | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
run anything in television, you have run some of the biggest things, you | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
brought us Big Brother and all sorts of things that people like and some | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
don't. But your role has been very powerful in television? Well, I was. | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
I no longer am. I think it has been run by men, yes, like me, and I | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
think a lot of the people who 've taken the decisions, the men, | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
thought they needed young women presenting programmes. They were | :56:19. | :56:27. | |
wrong. It has to change. OK. Pf | :56:27. | :56:28. | |
APPLAUSE Gillian Tett? I maybe will leave the | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
politicians out of this debate. You have got to make the running! | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
would agree. I think the fact that we are having this debate is partly | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
because older women are becoming more powerful, economically and | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
politically at the moment, but secondly I've been in America the | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
last few years it's very striking there that already a lot more female | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
voices on television who're older. People who may not be familiar to | :56:53. | :57:02. | |
this audience, but Andrea Mitch Mitch who I believe is in her 60s, | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
Christine Amanporu, crayty Curick and they are fabulous and I look | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
forward to seeing you on television. I don't believe that Susan is over | :57:10. | :57:20. | |
:57:20. | :57:21. | ||
50! Chris, would it matter? ! thinking of standing for Parliament | :57:21. | :57:27. | |
in Ipswich, Chris! Do either of you two want to say a brief word before | :57:27. | :57:34. | |
we end? Yes, what a sad note on which to end, really! Right. Our | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
hour is up. That is our time. Next hour is up. That is our time. Next | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
week now, going to be in Belfast. The week after that, we are going to | :57:42. | :57:50. | |
be in London. We have Alan Johnson for Labour in London and the crave | :57:50. | :57:58. | |
downtonne abbey director, Julian Fellows. The usual rules apply, you | :57:58. | :58:08. | |
:58:08. | :58:09. | ||
can ring us or apply on the website. -- Downton Abbey. I hope you have | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
enjoyed listening on Five Live. You can continue the degate with | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
Question Time extra time. That's how they score in football isn't it? | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
have no interest in football whatsoever, I won't even pretend. | :58:25. | :58:34. | |
Penalties! Question Time extra time on Five Live tonight. I hope you | :58:34. | :58:38. |