13/06/2013 Question Time


13/06/2013

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Edinburgh, with an audience of 16 and 17-year-olds ahead of the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 13/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

the youngest audience we have ever had on Question Time, 16 and

:00:12.:00:15.

17-year-olds, the first week of this age to have the vote in the UK.

:00:15.:00:25.
:00:25.:00:28.

Welcome to Question Time. On the panel tonight, the leader of

:00:28.:00:31.

the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson. Labour's deputy leader in

:00:31.:00:38.

Scotland, Anas Sarwar. Respect MP George Galloway. The SNP leader at

:00:38.:00:43.

Westminster, Angus Robertson. The broadcaster and columnist, Lesley

:00:43.:00:48.

Riddoch. And the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage, back in Edinburgh for

:00:48.:00:58.
:00:58.:01:06.

the first time since he was chased The reason we have this young

:01:06.:01:10.

audience is that a Scottish parliament voted to allow 16 and

:01:10.:01:15.

17-year-olds to vote in next year's referendum on Scottish independence.

:01:15.:01:20.

But the debate is not about Scottish independence. We just want to know

:01:20.:01:24.

what this section of society think about some of the issues we face, as

:01:24.:01:32.

always, Question Time. The first question from Kieran Fitzgerald.

:01:32.:01:36.

surveillance of internet activity and acceptable price for national

:01:36.:01:41.

security? This is in light of revelations from the United States

:01:41.:01:47.

this week. George Galloway. Benjamin Franklin said those who will

:01:47.:01:52.

sacrifice liberty for security will, in the end, enjoy neither. The

:01:52.:01:58.

sacrificing of our liberties can only lead to a victory for those who

:01:58.:02:04.

wish to destroy liberty. And I think that the revelation, the

:02:04.:02:07.

whistleblower, instead of being extradited and sent to prison for

:02:07.:02:12.

the rest of his life, should be given a medal, should be given a

:02:12.:02:19.

Nobel Prize, because he has revealed illegal state surveillance on a

:02:19.:02:25.

truly gargantuan scale. The United States NSA, National Security

:02:25.:02:33.

Agency, has bugged three trillion telephone calls each year. Trillion

:02:33.:02:38.

telephone calls each year. There is mass surveillance of people in the

:02:38.:02:43.

United States, and that is bad enough. What is worse is that the

:02:43.:02:48.

British security services have been making use of the intelligence of us

:02:48.:02:55.

garnered in breach, actually, of British law. William Hague tried to

:02:55.:03:00.

play it down this week by saying he had authorised it. Frankly, I would

:03:00.:03:08.

not trust William Hague to guard our liberties in any respect. The best

:03:08.:03:14.

way to deal with the threat of terror in the world is to address

:03:14.:03:18.

the causes of terror in the world. And that will not be done by the

:03:18.:03:28.
:03:28.:03:32.

state becoming ever more terrorist itself. I think the first thing we

:03:32.:03:36.

should do is recognise the important role that public servants in-house

:03:36.:03:39.

surveillance and security industry make to all of us to keep us safe

:03:39.:03:44.

every day. I think all of us should show appreciation to them. It is

:03:44.:03:48.

right that we have a system in place with democratic accountability and a

:03:48.:03:51.

tight legal framework and important the public has confidence in the

:03:51.:03:57.

work intelligence agency does. One, so they can have the support of the

:03:57.:04:00.

public, but secondly to make sure they are working within a legal

:04:00.:04:06.

framework. George Galloway says they are breaking it. It is right that

:04:06.:04:11.

citizens know the security agencies are law-abiding. That is why William

:04:11.:04:15.

Hague has serious questions to answer. Did he sign off on the

:04:15.:04:20.

surveillance agencies from the US to tap into British people's phones and

:04:20.:04:24.

e-mails? And if he did not, it is very clear that there has -- that if

:04:24.:04:28.

there has been any breach of UK law, those people and agencies should

:04:28.:04:35.

feel the full force of UK justice. But you actually want more

:04:35.:04:37.

surveillance. You are with the Home Secretary in wanting more

:04:37.:04:44.

surveillance. You have to get the balance right. You have to get the

:04:44.:04:48.

balance right in terms of keeping ourselves secure but protecting the

:04:48.:04:50.

rights to privacy. That is where you have to have a democratically

:04:50.:04:54.

accountable process but a tight legal framework. It is not

:04:54.:04:59.

acceptable to say to people, we expect you to be law-abiding

:04:59.:05:02.

citizens, and government ministers and agents themselves are not

:05:02.:05:05.

law-abiding. That is not accept the ball and it undermines public trust

:05:05.:05:10.

in what we are trying to do, keep us safe and stop terrorist attacks on

:05:10.:05:17.

the streets of the UK. As George Galloway said, the whistleblower is

:05:17.:05:20.

getting punished for breaching privacy laws, but the government

:05:20.:05:23.

does not get punished for breaching our privacy. What is the fairness in

:05:23.:05:33.
:05:33.:05:34.

that? George Galloway was trying to trade off liberty against security.

:05:34.:05:37.

A responsible government has to balance one with the other. It is

:05:38.:05:43.

not picking one or the other, but finding the right balance. GCHQ, the

:05:43.:05:47.

agency in charge of this kind of monitoring in the UK, works within

:05:47.:05:51.

an incredibly tight legal framework. When it does surveillance

:05:51.:05:58.

operations, these have to be signed off by the Secretary of State. It is

:05:58.:06:01.

not 6000 desk jockey James Bonds looking through your e-mail account

:06:01.:06:05.

to see who you fancy. They are called the intelligence agency

:06:05.:06:08.

because they work on intelligence. If they were looking at everybody's

:06:08.:06:13.

date, they would not find anything because they would be snowed under.

:06:13.:06:18.

We have an incredibly important link with the United States. We have

:06:18.:06:21.

worked with the US to foil terror plots before and we will do again to

:06:21.:06:31.
:06:31.:06:44.

keep people safe, but the framework that else's data sharing. But is it

:06:44.:06:49.

arriving from GCHQ, this information from the States? You say you would

:06:49.:06:51.

be snowed under, but as George Galloway said, trillions of calls

:06:51.:06:57.

have been checked. We have a guarantee that any data obtained in

:06:57.:07:03.

the UK from the US involving UK nationals is subject to the same UK

:07:03.:07:08.

statutory controls. What is the guarantee? William Hague's word for

:07:08.:07:13.

it? William Hague would have no time to do anything else if he was

:07:13.:07:16.

signing warrants every day for the British share of 3 trillion

:07:16.:07:21.

telephone calls each year. It stands to reason that the James Bonds that

:07:21.:07:29.

you talk about - although to me they look more like Austin Powers - at

:07:29.:07:34.

GCHQ, they must be freelancing on this. Otherwise we would never see

:07:34.:07:37.

William Hague's face because he would be in his office signing

:07:37.:07:47.
:07:47.:07:47.

warrants all day. APPLAUSE

:07:47.:07:52.

To get specific to what I understand Edward Snowden to have done, he was

:07:52.:07:55.

not actually whistleblowing on the scale of phone call tapping, which

:07:55.:07:58.

we knew about. He was actually looking at Google

:07:58.:08:03.

and Facebook handing over details that you and your generation had

:08:03.:08:07.

thought you gave in trust to someone who was not a government, who was,

:08:07.:08:14.

in effect, your friend, who was perhaps an intermediary that let you

:08:14.:08:17.

connect with other friends. And it is that that is the most significant

:08:17.:08:20.

aspect of this. It is also significant that we cannot we sure

:08:20.:08:27.

now that the rules, the outlook that we have in Britain, is something

:08:27.:08:31.

that is at the heart of the way Google and Facebook are working.

:08:31.:08:36.

Because they are in an American jurisdiction. Just before we came on

:08:36.:08:40.

air, the US Supreme Court found against two companies that were

:08:40.:08:44.

trying to patented part of the DNA we are built from. That is the

:08:44.:08:49.

degree to which American companies very often want to get in and

:08:49.:08:55.

patents and control what actually belongs to all of us. Do you accept

:08:55.:08:59.

what Mark Zuckerberg said, which is that Facebook is not and never has

:08:59.:09:03.

been part of any programme to give the US or any government direct

:09:03.:09:10.

access to their servers? Or do you think he is deceiving us? As I

:09:10.:09:14.

understand it, Twitter were the only company that could save eight did

:09:14.:09:20.

not cooperate with PRISM. -- that could say they did not cooperate.

:09:20.:09:25.

Europe has a whistleblower charter in effect since 1998 that would not

:09:25.:09:30.

prosecute Edward Snowden. We need to stand up for different values. Let's

:09:30.:09:33.

set up our own Google and Facebook. Let's think of an opportunity out of

:09:33.:09:38.

this. We need to pull back our values from where they are at the

:09:38.:09:46.

moment because they are not safe in those hands. I agree we need to find

:09:46.:09:49.

a balance between surveillance and actually giving everyone privacy.

:09:49.:09:54.

But how do we find that balance and not crossover into being like big

:09:54.:10:02.

brother? Where would you come from that? Are you on Facebook? And are

:10:02.:10:06.

you unnerved about the access security people have too it? Yes. I

:10:06.:10:11.

feel I have made my account private and I should be allowed to keep that

:10:11.:10:19.

information private. And do you agree? Yes. I believe the national

:10:19.:10:23.

security is important but in this case it has been a case of behind

:10:23.:10:29.

our back is. Little Brother, Great Britain, bowing down to big mother,

:10:29.:10:33.

United States. It is time we stand up and put our foot down and say,

:10:33.:10:38.

these are our laws and what our democracy has decided and we should

:10:38.:10:47.

not bow down to the United States being more powerful. Do you agree?

:10:47.:10:51.

What worries me is that it is not just about surveillance but about

:10:51.:10:56.

storage. So it is what you are chatting about with other people on

:10:57.:11:02.

Twitter, on Facebook, on Skype, on e-mail traffic. It is much more than

:11:02.:11:10.

phonecalls, or thinking somebody is suspicious so let's start recording.

:11:10.:11:14.

It is recording billions of your conversations. I feel very uneasy.

:11:15.:11:21.

It is not just about GCHQ and the NSA in the United States of America.

:11:21.:11:25.

There are other places that what you are conversing with other people is

:11:25.:11:28.

being stored as well. An issue for me is about the storage of your

:11:28.:11:34.

information. I agree with George on this point. The idea that we should

:11:34.:11:37.

just trust in William Hague because he has said something in the House

:11:37.:11:43.

of Commons. Everything is all right now! I am sorry but I do not think

:11:43.:11:46.

everything is all right and I think this will be one of the big debates

:11:46.:11:50.

of years ahead. Your generation, more than any so far, has grown up

:11:51.:11:58.

using IT in a way that us on the panel never have. It is going to be

:11:58.:12:02.

even more important to you than it is to us, and we need to get it

:12:02.:12:05.

right. How would you change the framework? You are saying the

:12:05.:12:08.

protections in place, the idea that it has to be signed off by the

:12:08.:12:12.

Secretary of State, is not enough. What do you suggest? As soon as you

:12:12.:12:17.

tell people there as a whole area online which we will never look at

:12:17.:12:20.

and security services will not access, that is where people who

:12:20.:12:25.

want to do harm will move their activity. That is not my point.

:12:25.:12:30.

Everybody agrees that when there is a risk to society from extremists

:12:30.:12:33.

who are prepared to use violence, there should be appropriate measures

:12:33.:12:36.

in place to make sure that one can intercept telephones or other

:12:36.:12:42.

traffic. Nobody disagrees with that and those safeguards are in place.

:12:42.:12:46.

But we are dealing with an entirely new threat on the one hand, and on

:12:46.:12:51.

the other hand a whole big issue about how can one intercept but also

:12:51.:12:55.

store this information? Do you really think this is going to be

:12:55.:13:04.

destroyed? It is going to be kept for ever and ever. I think we need

:13:04.:13:08.

to start addressing issues as to why we are under threat in the first

:13:08.:13:13.

lace. It goes back to issues like the war on terror, where we are

:13:13.:13:16.

sending working-class people to fight illegal wars overseas for

:13:16.:13:21.

America's economic interest. It is time we stopped sending

:13:21.:13:23.

working-class people to fight for America's economic interest and

:13:23.:13:28.

started to bring people like Tony Blair and others up to The Hague to

:13:28.:13:38.
:13:38.:13:39.

face the warcrimes tribunal that they deserve to face. I think we

:13:39.:13:43.

have a schizophrenic debate on this. We are horrified with what we have

:13:43.:13:46.

heard but three weeks ago in the wake of the Woolwich murders people

:13:46.:13:49.

were screaming and shouting and saying, the security services knew

:13:49.:13:56.

who these men were, so why was more not done? It is about balance.

:13:56.:13:59.

However, is what is potentially happening here and accept double

:13:59.:14:06.

price, was the question. I think when the Americans launched the war

:14:06.:14:10.

on terror under George Bush, they have gone so far down a road where,

:14:10.:14:14.

frankly, in America they have now launched a war on liberty and

:14:14.:14:18.

freedom. It applies not just to surveillance, but to a plea

:14:18.:14:22.

bargaining system, where if the state says you are guilty you have

:14:22.:14:26.

almost no choice but to plea-bargain, guilty. I would say

:14:26.:14:31.

Leslie is right, these are big American companies. And users have

:14:31.:14:35.

to be aware that if they are going through American internet service

:14:35.:14:39.

providers, their stuff is not safe. I hope we get some alternatives out

:14:39.:14:43.

of it and I do not want us to go down the route where we allow the

:14:43.:14:47.

liberty of millions of people in this country to be destroyed because

:14:47.:14:50.

we are following the Americans, who have frankly gone completely over

:14:50.:15:00.

the top. How you prevent it if you have got Facebook, if that's where

:15:00.:15:03.

you are working? How do you prevent it? People have to be cautious when

:15:03.:15:07.

using all forms of social media, about what they say and do. Do not

:15:07.:15:17.
:15:17.:15:17.

think the that whatever you say on Facebook is private. It isn't.

:15:17.:15:21.

make the point of Internet companies such as Google and Facebook have

:15:21.:15:25.

come out and said, we have never been approached by national security

:15:25.:15:31.

agencies, so this is rubbish, but in fact, if the NSA did approach

:15:31.:15:36.

Facebook and Mark zukerburg said I've never heard of it, if they

:15:36.:15:42.

asked for information, under US law, Facebook would be obliged to deny

:15:42.:15:52.
:15:52.:15:53.

any involvement from the NASA at all. That shows that if Governments

:15:53.:15:57.

are found to be showing information that they shouldn't be or requesting

:15:57.:16:01.

information they have no access to, they'll find a way to cover it up

:16:01.:16:05.

and do everything in their power to gag it. I actually agree with George

:16:05.:16:11.

Galloway when he says that people like Edward snowdon who it was

:16:11.:16:14.

revealed in the Guardian last week showed how easy it was for him to

:16:14.:16:17.

access information, we should be giving people like him a medal

:16:17.:16:24.

instead of prosecuting hum. One more point then we'll move on. You in the

:16:24.:16:29.

checked shirt there on the gangway? Yes, we have talked about justice

:16:29.:16:34.

and what should be allowed. I think we can all agree that Internet

:16:34.:16:37.

surveillance can be used for good and a way forward for this to

:16:37.:16:41.

improve the situation is for there to be an international law to mean

:16:41.:16:44.

that whenever Internet surveillance is used, it's completely transparent

:16:44.:16:49.

with the co-op Russian of both Governments and both intelligence

:16:49.:16:51.

agencies so that we don't have this American citizen stying on British

:16:52.:17:00.

citizens which is unjust -- cooperation. Before we leave this,

:17:00.:17:06.

put your hands up if you are on social media, Facebook or otherwise?

:17:06.:17:10.

Everybody. Put your hands up if you are worried about what you have

:17:10.:17:14.

heard this week? About half of you. OK. We'll go on to another question.

:17:14.:17:21.

Just to say before we do, you can join in tonight's debate from home,

:17:21.:17:31.
:17:31.:17:33.

text or Twitter - watch out, you are Fiona Murray's question, please?

:17:33.:17:37.

What benefits would independence bring for young people in Scotland?

:17:37.:17:40.

Very straightforward question. What benefits would independence bring?

:17:41.:17:46.

Who'd like to start on this? Maybe you should, Angus? The advantages...

:17:46.:17:52.

Not at too great a length. There are six of us a here. Haver good.

:17:52.:17:57.

Although I notice on the panel we have four politicians from other

:17:57.:18:02.

political parties who're of posed and only one who's in favour -- of

:18:02.:18:10.

pose and one o only one in favour. APPLAUSE

:18:10.:18:13.

Parity would be good. It's worth observing we have a really important

:18:13.:18:17.

election in Scotland taking place next week in Aberdeen and we have

:18:18.:18:22.

two representatives who have much to say on the panel tonight from

:18:22.:18:31.

parties who don't have any representation. Pf

:18:31.:18:32.

There are two political parties representing the Scottish Parliament

:18:32.:18:36.

who're part of the election next week. Sorry, Question Time does not

:18:36.:18:39.

follow by-elections, never has, national elections yes. Sorry, we

:18:39.:18:45.

never do. By-elections. On the independence issue, this audience is

:18:45.:18:50.

divided 50/50 on that issue. Now make your point? I will. One of the

:18:51.:18:53.

big differences with independence is that we wouldn't be mucked around in

:18:53.:18:56.

the way that we have in the relation to this programme tonight. We'd

:18:56.:19:00.

always have the Parliament that we elect, we'd always have the

:19:00.:19:04.

Government that we wish and the decisions that would be made in the

:19:04.:19:08.

Scottish Parliament, not just about things limited at the present time

:19:09.:19:13.

with devolution, education, health and so on, working much better

:19:13.:19:16.

eunder devolution would happen with the other powers over the economy,

:19:17.:19:20.

over Foreign Affairs and over defence, things that really matter.

:19:20.:19:25.

It's about how do we create jobs and make our economy grow quicker? How

:19:25.:19:29.

do we play a role in the world and get nuclear weapons out of our

:19:29.:19:38.

country? We never wanted them here in the first place.

:19:38.:19:41.

APPLAUSE So the difference is there for

:19:41.:19:45.

everybody, especially for the young. That's why I'm so proud that it's

:19:45.:19:50.

the SNP who propose that 16 and 17-year-olds should have a vote in

:19:50.:19:54.

this very important referendum. My first speech was about lowering the

:19:54.:19:57.

vote to 16 and 17-year-olds, it's important for democracy to get the

:19:57.:20:01.

young and next generation to be part of the democratic process. I'm proud

:20:01.:20:05.

the SNPs delivered it and weapon the arguments have been had, you are

:20:05.:20:09.

going to be an important part of that yes vote that will make

:20:09.:20:16.

Scotland an independent, successful country. - woman on the right?

:20:16.:20:21.

You say that we are getting mucked about right now, but do you not

:20:21.:20:25.

think the SNP are mucking us about because we are not getting answers

:20:25.:20:29.

on free tuition, how are you going to subsidise education and how do we

:20:29.:20:35.

know it will be as good as it is right now? Because the NSP in -- SNP

:20:35.:20:43.

is in Government right now. I The remarkable thing about the

:20:43.:20:48.

intervention there is that he's so worked up about representation on

:20:48.:20:53.

the panel today. You have the SNP saying we want to keep the pound but

:20:53.:20:56.

lose our influence over it, the Bank of England set our mortgage and

:20:56.:21:00.

interest rates. We want the UK sharing of the welfare state. He

:21:00.:21:03.

wants political representation but less representation for Scots and

:21:03.:21:09.

important UK institutions have a say on every day life in Scotland. Young

:21:09.:21:13.

people need not politics of grudge and grievance, they need gin win

:21:13.:21:17.

offers of how to get not just constitutional change which talks

:21:17.:21:21.

about which politicians and what building, about how to get genuine

:21:21.:21:26.

social and economic change so every young person has the ability, no

:21:26.:21:29.

matter where they live, whether London, Edinburgh, Manchester, has

:21:29.:21:34.

the opportunity to get a quality education. You don't think that will

:21:34.:21:40.

be delivered? By independent? the wrong solution for the wrong

:21:40.:21:44.

problem. How do we make sure everyone can maximise their full

:21:44.:21:47.

potential and have a country based on social justice and fairness, not

:21:47.:21:52.

division. That's not just a priority for people in my constituency, that

:21:52.:21:57.

ends with the line in England and Scotland. Let's stop obsessing about

:21:57.:22:01.

the issues of politics and talk about the real issues about how to

:22:01.:22:07.

get genuine change in communities so every young person can be an asset

:22:07.:22:13.

to this country and get jobs. APPLAUSE

:22:13.:22:18.

You, there? George said it was his idea to introduce the 16 and

:22:18.:22:22.

17-year-olds get. Ing the right to vote. When I voted 17, I wouldn't

:22:22.:22:26.

have knew what to vote for, I don't think particularly giving it to

:22:26.:22:29.

young people is the right option. Angus said that, yes. The person

:22:29.:22:38.

over there in suspecticals on the left? Yes. -- stect Kells. An dues

:22:38.:22:46.

-- spectacles. Angus mentioned jobs. Thousands of jobs are going to be

:22:46.:22:50.

lost from companies moving down to England and moving down to the

:22:50.:22:54.

defence contracts in this country. How on earth can you justify those

:22:54.:23:01.

unemployed people? APPLAUSE

:23:02.:23:05.

I've got a very clear idea of the kind of country I want to live in

:23:05.:23:13.

and it's a country that doesn't use Trident or nuclear weapons for its

:23:13.:23:13.

defence... APPLAUSE

:23:13.:23:20.

It's a country that puts equality as THE most important social goal on

:23:20.:23:25.

all policies which understands that inequality basically erodes trust

:23:25.:23:30.

between us, between Government and citizens. It's a country that puts

:23:30.:23:33.

education top and recognises early years education would transform life

:23:33.:23:37.

and it's a country that embraces renewables, particularly Scotland,

:23:37.:23:43.

because we are the Saudi Arabia of renewables and starts our engineer

:23:44.:23:48.

engineering prospects back again by basing it on that. I have to ask

:23:48.:23:51.

myself, how is that going to happen in my lifetime? Mine will be shorter

:23:52.:23:57.

than yours. I would like to see change in my lifetime and I've

:23:57.:24:05.

actually voted every party, I have to say except sorry Ruth, the

:24:05.:24:09.

Tories... Still time.No, there's not.

:24:09.:24:11.

APPLAUSE We have to make a judgment and next

:24:11.:24:18.

year, as things stand, I will vote yes. Now, the reason I will vote yes

:24:18.:24:23.

is not the great big yes that Angus has to do as a member of the

:24:23.:24:26.

Scottish National Party and I just want to say this, I'm a journalist

:24:26.:24:31.

and I want to be automobile to keep question policies that don't sound

:24:31.:24:35.

quite right. All the sorts of aspects of the debate that make it a

:24:35.:24:40.

hard one to be in and there's an important point in this. I come from

:24:40.:24:43.

Northern Ireland originally and there are camps there, there's yes

:24:43.:24:48.

and no, people who don't talk to each other now after 50 years of

:24:48.:24:53.

trouble. We don't want to get to a stage where we can't talk to each

:24:53.:24:57.

other easily about our future together. That's a consideration.

:24:57.:25:00.

Having said all these qualifications, on balance I'll vote

:25:00.:25:07.

yes. APPLAUSE

:25:07.:25:12.

The man at the very back by the camera with the spectacles on, yes?

:25:12.:25:18.

I would just like to say that I know that some of you say that if we

:25:18.:25:22.

become independent we lose our influence in the Bank of England,

:25:22.:25:26.

but the Bank of The UK is needed. Scotland has a 10% influence in the

:25:26.:25:30.

Bank of England which we would maintain after independence if we

:25:30.:25:35.

kept the pound. So there is no guarantee we'd lose it whatsoever.

:25:35.:25:40.

Angus is churl churlish in his introductory remarks on the SNP.

:25:40.:25:45.

They are a pointer, illuminating as to the kind of Scotland you as 16

:25:45.:25:52.

and 17-year-olds would inherit. His belief that someone like me has to

:25:52.:25:56.

right to be on a BBC Question Time programme because I don't currently

:25:56.:26:01.

have an address in Scotland is rather typical of the narrow minded

:26:01.:26:08.

and narrow outlook that informs his kind of politics, similarly when

:26:08.:26:17.

Nigel Farage was run out of Edinburgh as David put it...

:26:17.:26:20.

APPLAUSE Not sure whether you are applauding

:26:20.:26:25.

because you believe that. I wasn't run out, I was locked in a pub, all

:26:25.:26:32.

right. That's what happened! George Galloway? Must have been

:26:32.:26:37.

hell, Nigel, must have been hell. This is the point. When he was

:26:37.:26:40.

treated in the way he was when he was in Edinburgh, Alex Salmond had

:26:40.:26:46.

the opportunity to be statesmanlike, to deplore what had happened, to say

:26:46.:26:50.

that everyone was welcome in Scotland, everyone with an elected

:26:50.:26:55.

position, everyone with a following in the country had a right to speak

:26:55.:27:05.

and be heard. But he didn't. He backed the people that saw the lead

:27:05.:27:08.

of the UKIP which I deplore as a party, as it happens. But he is an

:27:09.:27:11.

elected leader of a party with substantial support in these

:27:11.:27:19.

islands. Not in Scotland. That's not the point. It is the point.

:27:19.:27:24.

APPLAUSE Can I... There you go. Lesley is...

:27:24.:27:29.

I'm not going to shout louder than you. Do you know the percentage vote

:27:29.:27:33.

they got at the last election here? That's not the point. It's never the

:27:33.:27:43.
:27:43.:27:49.

point. It was 0. 2... All of us have got the right to speak. Unless the

:27:49.:27:53.

kind of Scotland you have in mind. Angus Robertson will decide who

:27:53.:27:57.

appears on the BBC Question Time, rather than David Dimbleby. I don't

:27:57.:28:01.

want to be in that kind of Scotland. I don't want to be in the kind of

:28:01.:28:06.

country where politicians sit with a slide roll and say, you can be on,

:28:06.:28:10.

but you can't because you no longer live here, you can't because you

:28:10.:28:14.

have only got X number of votes. What I'm saying to you is, what

:28:14.:28:18.

happened to Farage looked ugly in the rest of the country and the rest

:28:18.:28:24.

of the world. And the SNP I fear will take you down a road where

:28:24.:28:29.

grudge is everything. All right. Where grudge and

:28:29.:28:37.

churlishness is everything. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:28:37.:28:40.

Angus, can you just reply on the narrow point of what George was

:28:40.:28:44.

saying and the quote from Alex Salmond was "we can frankly do

:28:44.:28:47.

without UKIP who dislike everybody and know absolutely nothing about

:28:47.:28:55.

Scotland? " Do you concur with all that? I concur with it absolutely.

:28:55.:29:01.

I'm proud that Scotland is a country that welcomes people from other

:29:01.:29:09.

countries. It wasn't like that the other week, was it?

:29:09.:29:13.

APPLAUSE It's hatred. Hatred. It's a country

:29:13.:29:17.

built on immigration and welcoming people from other places. That's a

:29:17.:29:21.

world of difference to disagreeing with the politics that you

:29:21.:29:26.

represent, Nigel. It's a politics I deplore and I'm pleased you do not

:29:26.:29:32.

have a single elected MP, MSP, or councillor in Scotland. You

:29:32.:29:36.

represent next to nobody in Scotland. I'll defend your right to

:29:36.:29:43.

speak but I would also like the right of people... I will reflect

:29:43.:29:48.

and respect the right of people to protest and say, we do not like your

:29:48.:29:58.
:29:58.:30:03.

to have a debate about what independents really means because I

:30:03.:30:07.

think you have been sold a false debate. UKIP does exist in Scotland

:30:07.:30:15.

and we are growing in the polls. are not. You seem to be of the same

:30:15.:30:20.

school of thought, and it is astonishing that the UKIP -- the

:30:20.:30:23.

Scottish media seem to think UKIP should not be allowed to express

:30:23.:30:26.

their opinion in Scotland. What happened was an attempt to close

:30:26.:30:30.

down my press conference when I was trying to have a debate. Any proper

:30:30.:30:34.

democratic party will say whether we agree or disagree, you can put your

:30:34.:30:39.

arguments. Your leader, Alex Salmond, made clear he was quite

:30:39.:30:43.

happy for the nationalist movement to have within it very extreme

:30:43.:30:47.

anti-democratic people that behaves like yobs. And that does not

:30:47.:30:50.

represent the vast majority of decent Scottish people and I thought

:30:50.:30:53.

Alex Salmond showed there is a very ugly side to this independence

:30:53.:31:03.
:31:03.:31:04.

debate. You were saying you did not agree. Coming back to what the UKIP

:31:04.:31:11.

leader said, Scottish people receive the same treatment heading down

:31:11.:31:20.

south. Not politically, but within the streets themselves. I am sorry.

:31:20.:31:28.

I am sorry. Enlarge on that point. What are you saying? Think about it.

:31:28.:31:33.

You were seen out why these yobs, yet England is seen as a country

:31:33.:31:41.

that defends itself, correct? England, glorious England. But when

:31:41.:31:44.

we come down south, we are treated with the same disrespect that you

:31:44.:31:54.
:31:54.:31:54.

were. Ruth Davidson. We have got away from what the question was

:31:54.:31:59.

supposed to be about. What elephants would independents bring to young

:31:59.:32:03.

people? All that we have had is three alpha males on the panel

:32:03.:32:08.

shouting about petty niggles. Everyone should have a voice, but

:32:08.:32:10.

people who ask legitimate questions should have them answered and should

:32:10.:32:17.

not be told, when they are asking questions like this, that just

:32:17.:32:21.

because you are asking a question you are doing Scotland down. People

:32:21.:32:25.

deserve answers in the debate on independence. They deserve an

:32:25.:32:28.

informed choice. I believe young people growing up in Scotland have a

:32:28.:32:33.

gradient of opportunity because we are part of the United Kingdom.

:32:33.:32:36.

Because we are part of the biggest trading block we have. We trade more

:32:36.:32:40.

in Scotland with the rest of the UK than with the rest of the world

:32:40.:32:43.

combined. One in five jobs in private-sector employment in

:32:44.:32:46.

Scotland is in a company that is headquartered in England, or

:32:46.:32:51.

Northern Ireland. We all benefit from the kind of research network

:32:51.:32:55.

the question asked about among universities. We benefit from being

:32:55.:32:59.

part of the United Kingdom that sits at the top table, whether at the

:32:59.:33:05.

UN, the IMF, in the EU, the G8 group of developed nations. I think we

:33:05.:33:12.

gain an awful lot. Whether it is even something as small to some

:33:12.:33:20.

people... If you want to throw war into the mix, let's talk about

:33:20.:33:26.

Kosovo. As a junior reporter, I saw what our forces did over there. We

:33:26.:33:30.

helped to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide. We did that. Scottish

:33:30.:33:35.

soldiers did that. I was watching the Black Watch do that. What has

:33:35.:33:41.

that got to do with independence? Angus was saying we are not a force

:33:41.:33:46.

for good in the world. I believe the UK is a force for good and we have

:33:46.:33:51.

demonstrated that with the work our Armed Forces do overseas. I said at

:33:51.:33:55.

the beginning of this question that you are divided fifth a 50, those

:33:55.:34:01.

who are inclined to vote yes and no. I do not want to pick haphazardly.

:34:01.:34:08.

-- 50 to 50. I would like to ask who is going to vote yes. The person

:34:08.:34:16.

right at the back. We are talking about the benefits of independence

:34:16.:34:22.

to young people. I do not feel young people within the UK are seeing many

:34:22.:34:26.

benefits as being a member of the UK, because currently the child

:34:26.:34:31.

poverty rate is so high. I do not believe it is helping us at all.

:34:31.:34:38.

You, over there. Something came out that this is the first generation of

:34:38.:34:42.

young people in the UK that are going to grow up poorer than their

:34:42.:34:49.

parents since the early 1950s. Also, since the early 1950s, if you take

:34:49.:34:52.

back the result of every general election in the UK and take

:34:52.:34:55.

statistics out of it, you will see that the Scottish vote made

:34:55.:35:00.

absolutely no difference. So representation does not come into it

:35:00.:35:03.

and values do not come into it because it would not have made a

:35:03.:35:11.

difference in the first place. I believe if we become independent

:35:11.:35:21.
:35:21.:35:23.

we will be one step closer to finding aliens. What? In the front.

:35:23.:35:31.

Did he say what I think he said? the list of the most peaceful

:35:31.:35:35.

countries in the world, Ireland scored in the top ten and the UK did

:35:35.:35:39.

not score anywhere near the top ten. In an independent Scotland without

:35:39.:35:42.

Trident and things like that, we would be able to become one of the

:35:42.:35:47.

more peaceful countries in the world. That might be true, but

:35:47.:35:51.

remember, this independence debate is being had. The SNP are saying

:35:51.:35:56.

vote for legal separation from the United Kingdom, and then let's join

:35:56.:35:59.

the European Union, which, of course, is developing its own

:35:59.:36:04.

foreign policy, its own military. And the most remarkable thing,

:36:04.:36:07.

getting back to the original question, is that actually there

:36:07.:36:10.

will be no benefits for young people, middle aged people or old

:36:10.:36:15.

people, because you are not being asked to vote on independence. You

:36:15.:36:19.

are swapping your masters from Westminster to Brussels. That is the

:36:19.:36:23.

debate that needs to be had in Scotland. The SNP are not offering

:36:23.:36:33.

independence. There are a couple of things that are important to

:36:33.:36:36.

understand in the context of the independence debate, especially for

:36:36.:36:40.

people who are not in Scotland. It is not just the SNP in favour of

:36:40.:36:43.

independence. There are people in other parties in favour of

:36:43.:36:48.

independence. There are people who are left of centre, right of centre,

:36:48.:36:55.

young and old. This is not just a proposal from one political party.

:36:55.:37:00.

Point two, this is about changing Scotland and Scottish democracy. At

:37:00.:37:03.

the present time, we are governed by the leading party, the Conservative

:37:03.:37:11.

party, that has one MP. Can you imagine a normal democracy where you

:37:11.:37:16.

have governments elected with so little present nation? That is not

:37:16.:37:22.

democracy. To go back to Nigel's point, if Scotland is sovereign, our

:37:22.:37:25.

Parliament can make all the decisions. It can make the decision

:37:25.:37:29.

to share sovereignty. I am in favour of sharing sovereignty and working

:37:29.:37:35.

with other countries. It is about the ability to make law. The reality

:37:35.:37:39.

is that we need to work with other countries, but what is critical is

:37:39.:37:43.

that once Parliament is able to make all the decisions. The decisions

:37:43.:37:47.

that will make the economy grow, make society more just and allow us

:37:47.:37:54.

to play a direct role in the world. That is why I am sure that people

:37:54.:38:00.

will vote for it. Why? Because 100 years ago there really were not that

:38:00.:38:04.

many independent states in the world and members of the United Nations.

:38:04.:38:09.

Now, there are over 200 and there is nobody going back and saying, I want

:38:09.:38:14.

to be run from the masters, or the form of governance from the past.

:38:14.:38:17.

Independence is the normal state for nations and gives the best

:38:17.:38:23.

opportunity to everybody, young and old, and that is why I think we will

:38:23.:38:27.

vote for it. I have to get in here because there are a lot of

:38:27.:38:30.

pejorative words. Can you pick up the point that Angus made that there

:38:30.:38:35.

is only one Tory MP in Scotland and yet a Tory government in Westminster

:38:35.:38:42.

decides and that is not right and fair. There are SNP MPs in

:38:42.:38:46.

Westminster. The point I wanted to pick up on was the pejorative terms

:38:46.:38:51.

Angus is using about slaves and masters. I do not feel that the UK

:38:51.:38:57.

is a master and I am a slave. We are part of a shared endeavour we have

:38:57.:39:00.

built over 300 years. All of the things we have built and created

:39:00.:39:03.

together, the work we have done together. When Angus Robertson talks

:39:03.:39:06.

about polls and some people from some parties believing in

:39:06.:39:10.

independence, not just the SNP, let's look at that. The last poll of

:39:10.:39:17.

SNP voters, only 61% said they would vote yes. That was fewer than the

:39:17.:39:22.

number of SNP voters that wanted an in-out referendum, which was 63%.

:39:22.:39:27.

But they will not offer that. He is twisting the facts to fit his

:39:27.:39:31.

agenda. We have to remember we are an integral part of the UK and

:39:31.:39:39.

because Scotland is part of the UK, the UK is better for it. Recent

:39:39.:39:43.

surveys show that the UK is the most regionally balanced country in

:39:43.:39:49.

Europe. We have an overheated south that is causing problems for every

:39:49.:39:55.

other part of the UK, probably more for northern parts of England than

:39:55.:39:58.

for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Is anybody else willing to

:39:58.:40:02.

tackle that? Can we have a conversation in the UK about a

:40:02.:40:08.

system here in which, unbelievably, according to analysts, one in 29

:40:08.:40:14.

Londoners are dollar millionaires. I checked that about three times. It

:40:14.:40:17.

is almost impossible to believe. We have massive disparities of wealth

:40:17.:40:23.

in this country. They are not just unequal. We are the fourth most

:40:23.:40:29.

unequal state in the world, the UK. Now, is that the best we can do? And

:40:29.:40:33.

is that really the future the UK offers? Is the mother of Parliament

:40:34.:40:39.

is proud of having turnouts of 30%. We are the laughing stock of Europe

:40:39.:40:43.

with these low turnouts, upon which massive decisions are made by a

:40:43.:40:48.

centralised state in London, which is passing laws and policies that

:40:48.:40:54.

suit that particular corner of the UK at the expense of everyone else.

:40:54.:40:59.

If the rest of the UK was up for it, and in 2004 the north-east of

:40:59.:41:05.

England, the Geordies, had the chance to vote, and 77% of them said

:41:05.:41:09.

no. I started life, good grief, as a liberal. I believed in a federal

:41:09.:41:15.

Britain. Is it ever going to happen? Evidently not. You have to get to a

:41:15.:41:19.

stage when you think, what is likely to happen in my lifetime? Having a

:41:20.:41:22.

proper, reasoned conversation about changing the whole lot written is

:41:22.:41:28.

not possible when we are the Scots, we are the tail wagging the dog. The

:41:28.:41:32.

dog is not interested in the vision we have for the future. And I think

:41:32.:41:35.

that is why many people will finally come to a decision that they have to

:41:35.:41:43.

do something a bit more radical to get that. We do not want to stay on

:41:43.:41:46.

this for the rest of the programme but we will now switch and I would

:41:46.:41:49.

like comments on what Leslie and Angus have said from those who say

:41:49.:41:55.

they will vote no when the time comes next year. You, with the pink

:41:55.:42:02.

shirt. I do not think that is what Scotland needs. It needs stability

:42:02.:42:06.

and construction. This will lead us down a path where we have nothing to

:42:06.:42:16.
:42:16.:42:17.

go. And you in the front.I would say I would vote to know at the

:42:17.:42:21.

moment but I am on the fence. At the moment, the independence debate has

:42:21.:42:25.

ended up being quite ugly, in that we have people very much for it and

:42:25.:42:31.

spouting the good things, and people very much against it. I do not think

:42:31.:42:34.

we are hearing much balance in terms of, this is what would happen to the

:42:34.:42:38.

economy, these are the benefits for young people and these are the

:42:38.:42:44.

drawbacks. I think there needs to be more clarity. I absolutely agree

:42:44.:42:50.

with that. We need politics and debate based on fact and not on myth

:42:50.:42:56.

and assertion, which is what we have had from the SNP so far. It is a

:42:56.:42:59.

case of saying, what you like will stay the same and the things you do

:42:59.:43:03.

not like will not happen any more. People in big business will cut

:43:03.:43:06.

corporation tax, and at the same time it is saying to trade unions

:43:06.:43:10.

and the third sector we will have record levels of public services.

:43:10.:43:14.

That is not being straight. You cannot have Scandinavian levels of

:43:14.:43:21.

public services and the tax system of Monaco. It is not credible, not

:43:21.:43:23.

good arithmetic. But the wider point about the politics you have seen on

:43:23.:43:26.

the panel today, you have one political party that wants to divide

:43:26.:43:30.

by people's origin within communities, another that wants to

:43:30.:43:35.

divide our country by those who are in work and those who are out of

:43:35.:43:38.

work, those who are skiving and those who are striving, and one

:43:38.:43:42.

political party that wants to divide based upon where you live in the UK.

:43:42.:43:46.

We need a politics and government in this country that does not run by

:43:46.:43:50.

the politics of division in principle -- and grievance, but by

:43:50.:43:52.

the principle of equality for everyone, no matter where they live

:43:52.:44:02.
:44:02.:44:04.

in the UK. This is to the SNP and it's in terms of education and an

:44:04.:44:06.

independent Scotland. Showerly the SNP can be accused of using the sort

:44:06.:44:12.

of tactics that now 16 and 17-year-olds are allowed to vote,

:44:12.:44:18.

it's the exact point the SNP have decided to introduce the new higher

:44:18.:44:22.

literature and English. Surely this is tactical by the SNP and therefore

:44:22.:44:25.

just like providing nationalism to 16 and 17-year-olds to hope to trick

:44:25.:44:28.

us into voting, rather than presenting a case as to why

:44:28.:44:38.

independence is actually good? It would be tremendously patronising

:44:38.:44:40.

for any politician or political party to suggest that because you

:44:41.:44:45.

learn the literature or the history or your own country, you are going

:44:45.:44:52.

to vote in your own way and make up your own mind.

:44:52.:44:56.

APPLAUSE One in 29 members of the Groucho

:44:56.:45:00.

club in London might be dollar millionaires, but I can assure you,

:45:00.:45:03.

there are millions of people in London that are very far from being

:45:03.:45:08.

millionaires. This kind of false dichotomy that Lesley drew is the

:45:08.:45:14.

same as the one Angus drew, that there are masters and servants. I'll

:45:14.:45:20.

tell you where that leads - to the misguided young man in the front row

:45:20.:45:25.

who thinks that English people set about Scottish people in England. If

:45:25.:45:29.

you turned on the television, if you read the major newspapers, if you

:45:29.:45:35.

listened to Parliament, if you look at the captains of business and

:45:35.:45:40.

industry and Trade Unions in England, it's full of Scottish

:45:40.:45:45.

people. Scottish people are never set upon in England. But the fact

:45:45.:45:50.

that that young man, fine young man, thought that, thinks that, is a

:45:50.:45:55.

direct result of this kind of talk that in London they are all dollar

:45:55.:46:03.

millionaires. In London they are all dollar millionaires, masters and we

:46:04.:46:08.

are servants. There are no English tanks in Scotland. Scottish people

:46:08.:46:14.

could have voted to be a separate country at any time in the last 90

:46:14.:46:19.

years of universal sufferage. They decided not to on every occasion. I

:46:19.:46:26.

pray they'll do so again when the reference referendum comes. What we

:46:26.:46:30.

end up doing here, and I also didn't say everyone in London is a dollar

:46:30.:46:34.

millionaire, can we just stop this, some things are like this in life,

:46:34.:46:38.

some things are others. We can get to a stage where we can surely

:46:38.:46:42.

accept there is no guarantees for anything in the future. Could you

:46:42.:46:46.

guarantee what, for example, the UK Government will give us by way of

:46:46.:46:51.

benefits for Bradford, even? I'm astonished, George, because, can I

:46:51.:46:55.

ask you a question, I know you are used to holding fort, but I would

:46:55.:46:58.

like to ask you something. There is mass unemployment throughout this

:46:58.:47:03.

country, mass poverty throughout this country, stop making false

:47:03.:47:09.

divisions, false dichotomies. ask you a question? David, can I ask

:47:09.:47:15.

him a question. It's simply not true and giving this emthe wrong

:47:15.:47:18.

impression, they are not dollar million theirs. Can I ask you a

:47:18.:47:22.

question? Ask a question, by all means. Keep it brief. George, answer

:47:22.:47:26.

briefly. I want to keep moving because we have only got ten minutes

:47:26.:47:31.

left in this programme and we are not sticking with independence.

:47:31.:47:37.

the bedroom tax help people in Bradford? No.Then why... You have

:47:37.:47:41.

had one question. Fine. It could have been turned into David

:47:41.:47:45.

Cameron's poll tax and could have brought him down. That's a bigger

:47:45.:47:49.

betrayal of working class people throughout these islands.

:47:49.:47:55.

All right. Just as a coder, a tail point to

:47:55.:47:58.

this, Scott Mann has a question and I want the panel to say what they

:47:58.:48:03.

think of it having heard what you have all said. Scott Mann? It's been

:48:03.:48:07.

referred to briefly but I would like to point out that 16 and

:48:07.:48:11.

17-year-olds aren't experienced enough to vote in the referendum. Do

:48:11.:48:19.

the panel agree? Do you agree? He thinks 16 and 17s don't have enough

:48:19.:48:23.

experience to vote? Do you agree? think they should vote. They can get

:48:23.:48:29.

married, join the Army, smoke. APPLAUSE

:48:29.:48:34.

You are against this? It's not about age, it's about a cut-off. You don't

:48:34.:48:37.

change the vote for just one poll, which is what is happening at the

:48:37.:48:42.

referendum. We have taken advice, we looked at the majority, they said 18

:48:42.:48:45.

was about right, it's where a lot of countries have it around the world,

:48:45.:48:51.

we are happy with that and don't see an overwhelming need for change.

:48:51.:48:56.

vast number of 18-year-olds is not voting in any form. Should 16 or

:48:56.:49:03.

17-year-olds vote on this? For a one-off basis, doing this once, is

:49:03.:49:07.

silly and cheap. Lesley? 16-year-olds can vote because you

:49:07.:49:12.

can be taxed. If you leave school, you can have a job and you can be

:49:12.:49:17.

taxed. If the old taxation without representation. You should be able

:49:17.:49:21.

to vote when you are going to be paying tax in a world that expects

:49:21.:49:26.

you to be acting as an adult. APPLAUSE

:49:27.:49:31.

Behind the question, would you like a gruen versal franchise for 16 and

:49:31.:49:34.

17-year-olds? Not just the referendum but in every election

:49:34.:49:38.

campaign. I'm delighted that 60% of the people in the poll last week

:49:38.:49:43.

said they would vote. But the important point is not enough just

:49:43.:49:46.

to give young people the vote. We need to make sure politics talks

:49:46.:49:49.

about issues that young people talk about so they come out and use the

:49:49.:49:55.

vote when they have the right to do it. We don't need to ask you, we

:49:55.:50:00.

know the answer. I'm Scottish, why don't I have a vote on the future of

:50:00.:50:08.

the country. You don't live here. It's a big decision.

:50:08.:50:10.

Self-determination is for people who live somewhere to make a decision

:50:10.:50:14.

that. 's why those registered o vote in Scotland will be making that

:50:14.:50:20.

decision. Should 16, 17-year-olds be able to vote? Yes, we proposed it.

:50:20.:50:25.

It shouldn't just be for the referendum but for all elections, we

:50:26.:50:29.

need o to reconnect the young with the democratic process. This is a

:50:29.:50:34.

good way of doing it. The last question, it's not about

:50:34.:50:39.

independence for Scotland. It's from Cameron Gilchrist? I would like to

:50:39.:50:42.

ask, should the UK intervene in Syria?

:50:42.:50:48.

Should the UK intervene in Syria? Do you have a view on this? Yes, fire

:50:48.:50:52.

away and we'll come to the panel next? I think yes, obviously

:50:52.:51:02.
:51:02.:51:07.

definitely, it should be allowed to intervene in Syria. All the

:51:07.:51:08.

ridiculous things that are happening there, but, you know, the current

:51:08.:51:11.

issue is actually the UN. The UN has this thing called the UN Security

:51:11.:51:13.

Council where there are five permanent seats and they are allowed

:51:14.:51:16.

to veto which means that you can stop, it's China, Russia, France,

:51:16.:51:19.

USA and Britain, and then you have like other countries, so that's like

:51:19.:51:23.

say, and if you can veto, that means no matter what, if nine out of ten

:51:23.:51:27.

voted yes, it just doesn't happen. But go to the point, you would like

:51:27.:51:37.

to see the UK intervening now? Almost 100,000 people killed since

:51:37.:51:42.

the uprising began. You have got 1. 6 million refugees, half of whom are

:51:42.:51:46.

children and 4. 6 million people in need of urgent humanitarian

:51:46.:51:50.

assistance. This is time for urgent national response, not to get

:51:50.:51:54.

weapons to people to they can kill each other, but to get a peaceful

:51:54.:51:57.

resolution and get people round the table and have a diplomatic

:51:57.:52:03.

solution. Let's be clear and learn the lessons from history. The rebels

:52:03.:52:07.

may have the negative effect of escalating the violence, prolonging

:52:07.:52:11.

Civil War and having a Cold War biproxy between the UK and others

:52:11.:52:16.

and Russia. That's not a good thing. Let's learn lessons from Iraq and

:52:17.:52:21.

Afghanistan and let's have a solution that brings a meaningful

:52:21.:52:29.

dialogue and supports peace, not violence. Violence solves nothing.

:52:29.:52:32.

APPLAUSE Nigel Farage? Go into war and

:52:32.:52:35.

intervening in war is the biggest decision a Government can make. Yet

:52:35.:52:39.

from the time of Blair onwards, we seem to, with glee, go to war or

:52:39.:52:43.

intervene in wars, without ever thinking through who is it we are

:52:43.:52:47.

actually supporting, what is the long-term consequence of our action

:52:47.:52:52.

going to be? It's perfectly clear that within the rebel groups in

:52:52.:52:57.

Syria, there is some very strong linkage with Al-Qaeda. We could load

:52:57.:53:02.

these guys up with guns and rockets that one day might actually be used

:53:02.:53:05.

against British soldiers. We don't know what we are doing, our history

:53:05.:53:10.

of intervening in wars in the Middle East over the course of the last

:53:10.:53:14.

decade shows we have not made anything better without a clear

:53:14.:53:18.

objective, without understanding who the rebels are. We shouldn't even

:53:18.:53:27.

consider getting involved in my opinion.

:53:27.:53:30.

APPLAUSE Ruth? There are two priorities, to

:53:30.:53:34.

deal with the people being affected by this, the families of the 93,000

:53:34.:53:40.

dead, the 1. 5 million refugees, that will rise to 3. 5 million

:53:40.:53:43.

people, that's more than the entire population of Wales and the

:53:44.:53:47.

Government's put aid in to help those directly affected. The second

:53:47.:53:51.

priority is to find some way of a negotiated settlement, a peace

:53:51.:53:55.

transition Government. What does that mean to you, to intervene?

:53:55.:54:00.

have to get Assad around the table at the conference being planned.

:54:00.:54:05.

He's waiting for the opposition to arrive. He's already at the table.

:54:05.:54:12.

George, far be it for me to see you stand up and defend another dictator

:54:12.:54:15.

in that part of the world, but... APPLAUSE

:54:15.:54:22.

The idea that Assad is coming to that table, He's already there.To

:54:22.:54:26.

form a transition Government and to take himself out of the government

:54:26.:54:31.

is an absolute nonsense. This brief that you have been given from

:54:31.:54:36.

William Hague's Foreign Office just won't do. The Syrian regime has been

:54:36.:54:41.

at the negotiating table from the beginning, following the Kofi Annan

:54:41.:54:47.

plan. The UN Special Envoy had exactly the democratic transition

:54:47.:54:51.

that you are talking about. It's the fact that you are already

:54:51.:54:56.

intervening, giving guns and money to Al-Qaeda who cut people's chests

:54:57.:55:03.

open and eat their hearts on video and post it on YouTube. If that

:55:03.:55:08.

murderer in Woolwich had gone to Damascus instead, William Hague

:55:08.:55:14.

would have given him money because we are backing these kind of

:55:14.:55:18.

extremist Al-Qaeda maniacs in Syria. You are already intervening. The

:55:18.:55:28.

intervention we need is to force the Syrian opposition to go under US and

:55:28.:55:32.

Russian chairmanship to Geneva and make them sit around the table until

:55:32.:55:36.

they've got an agreement that will be a political transition to

:55:36.:55:45.

democracy. How's that for you? ! We are being exhorted quite rightly

:55:45.:55:49.

to learn the lessons from history and it's not that long ago that we

:55:49.:55:52.

armed the Taliban because we thought it was a tremendously good thing

:55:52.:55:54.

that they should fight the Soviet Union.

:55:54.:55:57.

APPLAUSE Them a number of decades later,

:55:57.:56:01.

those very same people are killing service people from the UK and

:56:01.:56:06.

elsewhere. We haven't learned the lesson of history in Afghanistan and

:56:06.:56:10.

I fear we are not going to learn the lesson of history in relation to

:56:10.:56:14.

Syria. Should we intervene? We should not do that by arming one

:56:14.:56:19.

side. Do we actual actually thawns Russia is arming the Assad regime to

:56:19.:56:23.

the teeth? Do we think that selling arms to one side of the conflict

:56:23.:56:27.

which will then be answered by the Russians providing more weapons opt

:56:27.:56:32.

other side will bring peace? That is the road to disaster. The young man

:56:32.:56:36.

brought up the United Nations but it's hardly even been reported so

:56:36.:56:39.

far, the United Nations is finding it unable to provide peacekeepers to

:56:39.:56:43.

the border between Israel and Syria. Danger is not just the nearly

:56:43.:56:48.

100,000 people who've died in Syria, it's the potential for a confluct

:56:48.:56:52.

across that region you and we should not be helping a disaster like that

:56:52.:56:59.

-- conflict. I think there is a lot of agreement

:56:59.:57:05.

here. If you remember the pictures that have been coming in, it's the

:57:05.:57:09.

sense of impotence you have when you watch children and they've been the

:57:09.:57:13.

biggest casualties, the report out today saying 93,000 people have been

:57:13.:57:16.

killed disproportionately children have died in Syria. Now, watching

:57:16.:57:23.

that, as we have done, without feeling any way that we can manage

:57:23.:57:28.

to effect some fairness and relief for those people or encourage any

:57:28.:57:31.

kind of hope that there would be a resolution there, has been a

:57:31.:57:35.

horrible thing to sit through to not be able to effect this. But now we

:57:35.:57:41.

are at a stage where some of the rebel groups are a dangerous group,

:57:41.:57:45.

set of groups, to arm. So I think we have to get to a stage, and I sigh

:57:45.:57:50.

there's been a bit of backtracking now from the Conservatives, we have

:57:50.:57:56.

to get to a stage with we get some peace talks on the go. That might

:57:56.:57:59.

sound like Pius hopes, but despite what we have seen, it's the best

:57:59.:58:05.

hope and we have to go for it. people with hair hands up and I

:58:05.:58:08.

can't call on any of you. Very sorry. Thank you for the part you

:58:08.:58:12.

have played so far, time's up. I can't do anything about that. I

:58:12.:58:15.

would like to go on longer but I can't. Next week, when Question Time

:58:15.:58:19.

is going to be in London, and we have the Mayor of London, Boris

:58:19.:58:23.

Johnson, on the panel, the comedian Russell Brand, you are welcome to

:58:23.:58:28.

come! The Daily Mail columnist Melanie

:58:28.:58:32.

Phillips, Tessa Jowell for Labour and Ed Davey for the Liberal

:58:32.:58:35.

Democrats. After that we'll be in Newcastle and if you want to come to

:58:35.:58:40.

London or Newcastle, the rules are the same as they always are, the

:58:40.:58:44.

address is on the screen or you can call us. If you are listening on

:58:44.:58:48.

Five Live, you can call in and continue the debate now on Question

:58:48.:58:52.

Time Extra Time. I hope you can do that. Meantime from here, just to

:58:52.:58:56.

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Edinburgh, with an audience of 16 and 17-year-olds. The 2014 referendum on Scottish independence will be the first time anyone under 18 has had a vote in the UK.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS