Browse content similar to 13/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
the youngest audience we have ever had on Question Time, 16 and | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
17-year-olds, the first week of this age to have the vote in the UK. | :00:15. | :00:25. | |
:00:25. | :00:28. | ||
Welcome to Question Time. On the panel tonight, the leader of | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson. Labour's deputy leader in | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
Scotland, Anas Sarwar. Respect MP George Galloway. The SNP leader at | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
Westminster, Angus Robertson. The broadcaster and columnist, Lesley | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
Riddoch. And the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage, back in Edinburgh for | :00:48. | :00:58. | |
:00:58. | :01:06. | ||
the first time since he was chased The reason we have this young | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
audience is that a Scottish parliament voted to allow 16 and | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
17-year-olds to vote in next year's referendum on Scottish independence. | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
But the debate is not about Scottish independence. We just want to know | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
what this section of society think about some of the issues we face, as | :01:24. | :01:32. | |
always, Question Time. The first question from Kieran Fitzgerald. | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
surveillance of internet activity and acceptable price for national | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
security? This is in light of revelations from the United States | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
this week. George Galloway. Benjamin Franklin said those who will | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
sacrifice liberty for security will, in the end, enjoy neither. The | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
sacrificing of our liberties can only lead to a victory for those who | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
wish to destroy liberty. And I think that the revelation, the | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
whistleblower, instead of being extradited and sent to prison for | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
the rest of his life, should be given a medal, should be given a | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
Nobel Prize, because he has revealed illegal state surveillance on a | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
truly gargantuan scale. The United States NSA, National Security | :02:25. | :02:33. | |
Agency, has bugged three trillion telephone calls each year. Trillion | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
telephone calls each year. There is mass surveillance of people in the | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
United States, and that is bad enough. What is worse is that the | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
British security services have been making use of the intelligence of us | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
garnered in breach, actually, of British law. William Hague tried to | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
play it down this week by saying he had authorised it. Frankly, I would | :03:00. | :03:08. | |
not trust William Hague to guard our liberties in any respect. The best | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
way to deal with the threat of terror in the world is to address | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
the causes of terror in the world. And that will not be done by the | :03:18. | :03:28. | |
:03:28. | :03:32. | ||
state becoming ever more terrorist itself. I think the first thing we | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
should do is recognise the important role that public servants in-house | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
surveillance and security industry make to all of us to keep us safe | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
every day. I think all of us should show appreciation to them. It is | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
right that we have a system in place with democratic accountability and a | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
tight legal framework and important the public has confidence in the | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
work intelligence agency does. One, so they can have the support of the | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
public, but secondly to make sure they are working within a legal | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
framework. George Galloway says they are breaking it. It is right that | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
citizens know the security agencies are law-abiding. That is why William | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
Hague has serious questions to answer. Did he sign off on the | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
surveillance agencies from the US to tap into British people's phones and | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
e-mails? And if he did not, it is very clear that there has -- that if | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
there has been any breach of UK law, those people and agencies should | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
feel the full force of UK justice. But you actually want more | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
surveillance. You are with the Home Secretary in wanting more | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
surveillance. You have to get the balance right. You have to get the | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
balance right in terms of keeping ourselves secure but protecting the | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
rights to privacy. That is where you have to have a democratically | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
accountable process but a tight legal framework. It is not | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
acceptable to say to people, we expect you to be law-abiding | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
citizens, and government ministers and agents themselves are not | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
law-abiding. That is not accept the ball and it undermines public trust | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
in what we are trying to do, keep us safe and stop terrorist attacks on | :05:10. | :05:17. | |
the streets of the UK. As George Galloway said, the whistleblower is | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
getting punished for breaching privacy laws, but the government | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
does not get punished for breaching our privacy. What is the fairness in | :05:23. | :05:33. | |
:05:33. | :05:34. | ||
that? George Galloway was trying to trade off liberty against security. | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
A responsible government has to balance one with the other. It is | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
not picking one or the other, but finding the right balance. GCHQ, the | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
agency in charge of this kind of monitoring in the UK, works within | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
an incredibly tight legal framework. When it does surveillance | :05:51. | :05:58. | |
operations, these have to be signed off by the Secretary of State. It is | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
not 6000 desk jockey James Bonds looking through your e-mail account | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
to see who you fancy. They are called the intelligence agency | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
because they work on intelligence. If they were looking at everybody's | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
date, they would not find anything because they would be snowed under. | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
We have an incredibly important link with the United States. We have | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
worked with the US to foil terror plots before and we will do again to | :06:21. | :06:31. | |
:06:31. | :06:44. | ||
keep people safe, but the framework that else's data sharing. But is it | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
arriving from GCHQ, this information from the States? You say you would | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
be snowed under, but as George Galloway said, trillions of calls | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
have been checked. We have a guarantee that any data obtained in | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
the UK from the US involving UK nationals is subject to the same UK | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
statutory controls. What is the guarantee? William Hague's word for | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
it? William Hague would have no time to do anything else if he was | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
signing warrants every day for the British share of 3 trillion | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
telephone calls each year. It stands to reason that the James Bonds that | :07:21. | :07:29. | |
you talk about - although to me they look more like Austin Powers - at | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
GCHQ, they must be freelancing on this. Otherwise we would never see | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
William Hague's face because he would be in his office signing | :07:37. | :07:47. | |
:07:47. | :07:47. | ||
warrants all day. APPLAUSE | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
To get specific to what I understand Edward Snowden to have done, he was | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
not actually whistleblowing on the scale of phone call tapping, which | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
we knew about. He was actually looking at Google | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
and Facebook handing over details that you and your generation had | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
thought you gave in trust to someone who was not a government, who was, | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
in effect, your friend, who was perhaps an intermediary that let you | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
connect with other friends. And it is that that is the most significant | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
aspect of this. It is also significant that we cannot we sure | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
now that the rules, the outlook that we have in Britain, is something | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
that is at the heart of the way Google and Facebook are working. | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
Because they are in an American jurisdiction. Just before we came on | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
air, the US Supreme Court found against two companies that were | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
trying to patented part of the DNA we are built from. That is the | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
degree to which American companies very often want to get in and | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
patents and control what actually belongs to all of us. Do you accept | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
what Mark Zuckerberg said, which is that Facebook is not and never has | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
been part of any programme to give the US or any government direct | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
access to their servers? Or do you think he is deceiving us? As I | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
understand it, Twitter were the only company that could save eight did | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
not cooperate with PRISM. -- that could say they did not cooperate. | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
Europe has a whistleblower charter in effect since 1998 that would not | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
prosecute Edward Snowden. We need to stand up for different values. Let's | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
set up our own Google and Facebook. Let's think of an opportunity out of | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
this. We need to pull back our values from where they are at the | :09:38. | :09:46. | |
moment because they are not safe in those hands. I agree we need to find | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
a balance between surveillance and actually giving everyone privacy. | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
But how do we find that balance and not crossover into being like big | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
brother? Where would you come from that? Are you on Facebook? And are | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
you unnerved about the access security people have too it? Yes. I | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
feel I have made my account private and I should be allowed to keep that | :10:11. | :10:19. | |
information private. And do you agree? Yes. I believe the national | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
security is important but in this case it has been a case of behind | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
our back is. Little Brother, Great Britain, bowing down to big mother, | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
United States. It is time we stand up and put our foot down and say, | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
these are our laws and what our democracy has decided and we should | :10:38. | :10:47. | |
not bow down to the United States being more powerful. Do you agree? | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
What worries me is that it is not just about surveillance but about | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
storage. So it is what you are chatting about with other people on | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
Twitter, on Facebook, on Skype, on e-mail traffic. It is much more than | :11:02. | :11:10. | |
phonecalls, or thinking somebody is suspicious so let's start recording. | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
It is recording billions of your conversations. I feel very uneasy. | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
It is not just about GCHQ and the NSA in the United States of America. | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
There are other places that what you are conversing with other people is | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
being stored as well. An issue for me is about the storage of your | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
information. I agree with George on this point. The idea that we should | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
just trust in William Hague because he has said something in the House | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
of Commons. Everything is all right now! I am sorry but I do not think | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
everything is all right and I think this will be one of the big debates | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
of years ahead. Your generation, more than any so far, has grown up | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
using IT in a way that us on the panel never have. It is going to be | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
even more important to you than it is to us, and we need to get it | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
right. How would you change the framework? You are saying the | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
protections in place, the idea that it has to be signed off by the | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
Secretary of State, is not enough. What do you suggest? As soon as you | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
tell people there as a whole area online which we will never look at | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
and security services will not access, that is where people who | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
want to do harm will move their activity. That is not my point. | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
Everybody agrees that when there is a risk to society from extremists | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
who are prepared to use violence, there should be appropriate measures | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
in place to make sure that one can intercept telephones or other | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
traffic. Nobody disagrees with that and those safeguards are in place. | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
But we are dealing with an entirely new threat on the one hand, and on | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
the other hand a whole big issue about how can one intercept but also | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
store this information? Do you really think this is going to be | :12:55. | :13:04. | |
destroyed? It is going to be kept for ever and ever. I think we need | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
to start addressing issues as to why we are under threat in the first | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
lace. It goes back to issues like the war on terror, where we are | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
sending working-class people to fight illegal wars overseas for | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
America's economic interest. It is time we stopped sending | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
working-class people to fight for America's economic interest and | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
started to bring people like Tony Blair and others up to The Hague to | :13:28. | :13:38. | |
:13:38. | :13:39. | ||
face the warcrimes tribunal that they deserve to face. I think we | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
have a schizophrenic debate on this. We are horrified with what we have | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
heard but three weeks ago in the wake of the Woolwich murders people | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
were screaming and shouting and saying, the security services knew | :13:49. | :13:56. | |
who these men were, so why was more not done? It is about balance. | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
However, is what is potentially happening here and accept double | :13:59. | :14:06. | |
price, was the question. I think when the Americans launched the war | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
on terror under George Bush, they have gone so far down a road where, | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
frankly, in America they have now launched a war on liberty and | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
freedom. It applies not just to surveillance, but to a plea | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
bargaining system, where if the state says you are guilty you have | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
almost no choice but to plea-bargain, guilty. I would say | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
Leslie is right, these are big American companies. And users have | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
to be aware that if they are going through American internet service | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
providers, their stuff is not safe. I hope we get some alternatives out | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
of it and I do not want us to go down the route where we allow the | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
liberty of millions of people in this country to be destroyed because | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
we are following the Americans, who have frankly gone completely over | :14:50. | :15:00. | |
the top. How you prevent it if you have got Facebook, if that's where | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
you are working? How do you prevent it? People have to be cautious when | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
using all forms of social media, about what they say and do. Do not | :15:07. | :15:17. | |
:15:17. | :15:17. | ||
think the that whatever you say on Facebook is private. It isn't. | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
make the point of Internet companies such as Google and Facebook have | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
come out and said, we have never been approached by national security | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
agencies, so this is rubbish, but in fact, if the NSA did approach | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
Facebook and Mark zukerburg said I've never heard of it, if they | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
asked for information, under US law, Facebook would be obliged to deny | :15:42. | :15:52. | |
:15:52. | :15:53. | ||
any involvement from the NASA at all. That shows that if Governments | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
are found to be showing information that they shouldn't be or requesting | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
information they have no access to, they'll find a way to cover it up | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
and do everything in their power to gag it. I actually agree with George | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
Galloway when he says that people like Edward snowdon who it was | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
revealed in the Guardian last week showed how easy it was for him to | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
access information, we should be giving people like him a medal | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
instead of prosecuting hum. One more point then we'll move on. You in the | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
checked shirt there on the gangway? Yes, we have talked about justice | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
and what should be allowed. I think we can all agree that Internet | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
surveillance can be used for good and a way forward for this to | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
improve the situation is for there to be an international law to mean | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
that whenever Internet surveillance is used, it's completely transparent | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
with the co-op Russian of both Governments and both intelligence | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
agencies so that we don't have this American citizen stying on British | :16:52. | :17:00. | |
citizens which is unjust -- cooperation. Before we leave this, | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
put your hands up if you are on social media, Facebook or otherwise? | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
Everybody. Put your hands up if you are worried about what you have | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
heard this week? About half of you. OK. We'll go on to another question. | :17:14. | :17:21. | |
Just to say before we do, you can join in tonight's debate from home, | :17:21. | :17:31. | |
:17:31. | :17:33. | ||
text or Twitter - watch out, you are Fiona Murray's question, please? | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
What benefits would independence bring for young people in Scotland? | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
Very straightforward question. What benefits would independence bring? | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
Who'd like to start on this? Maybe you should, Angus? The advantages... | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
Not at too great a length. There are six of us a here. Haver good. | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
Although I notice on the panel we have four politicians from other | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
political parties who're of posed and only one who's in favour -- of | :18:02. | :18:10. | |
pose and one o only one in favour. APPLAUSE | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
Parity would be good. It's worth observing we have a really important | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
election in Scotland taking place next week in Aberdeen and we have | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
two representatives who have much to say on the panel tonight from | :18:22. | :18:31. | |
parties who don't have any representation. Pf | :18:31. | :18:32. | |
There are two political parties representing the Scottish Parliament | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
who're part of the election next week. Sorry, Question Time does not | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
follow by-elections, never has, national elections yes. Sorry, we | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
never do. By-elections. On the independence issue, this audience is | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
divided 50/50 on that issue. Now make your point? I will. One of the | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
big differences with independence is that we wouldn't be mucked around in | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
the way that we have in the relation to this programme tonight. We'd | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
always have the Parliament that we elect, we'd always have the | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
Government that we wish and the decisions that would be made in the | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
Scottish Parliament, not just about things limited at the present time | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
with devolution, education, health and so on, working much better | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
eunder devolution would happen with the other powers over the economy, | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
over Foreign Affairs and over defence, things that really matter. | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
It's about how do we create jobs and make our economy grow quicker? How | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
do we play a role in the world and get nuclear weapons out of our | :19:29. | :19:38. | |
country? We never wanted them here in the first place. | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
APPLAUSE So the difference is there for | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
everybody, especially for the young. That's why I'm so proud that it's | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
the SNP who propose that 16 and 17-year-olds should have a vote in | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
this very important referendum. My first speech was about lowering the | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
vote to 16 and 17-year-olds, it's important for democracy to get the | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
young and next generation to be part of the democratic process. I'm proud | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
the SNPs delivered it and weapon the arguments have been had, you are | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
going to be an important part of that yes vote that will make | :20:09. | :20:16. | |
Scotland an independent, successful country. - woman on the right? | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
You say that we are getting mucked about right now, but do you not | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
think the SNP are mucking us about because we are not getting answers | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
on free tuition, how are you going to subsidise education and how do we | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
know it will be as good as it is right now? Because the NSP in -- SNP | :20:35. | :20:43. | |
is in Government right now. I The remarkable thing about the | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
intervention there is that he's so worked up about representation on | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
the panel today. You have the SNP saying we want to keep the pound but | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
lose our influence over it, the Bank of England set our mortgage and | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
interest rates. We want the UK sharing of the welfare state. He | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
wants political representation but less representation for Scots and | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
important UK institutions have a say on every day life in Scotland. Young | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
people need not politics of grudge and grievance, they need gin win | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
offers of how to get not just constitutional change which talks | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
about which politicians and what building, about how to get genuine | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
social and economic change so every young person has the ability, no | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
matter where they live, whether London, Edinburgh, Manchester, has | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
the opportunity to get a quality education. You don't think that will | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
be delivered? By independent? the wrong solution for the wrong | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
problem. How do we make sure everyone can maximise their full | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
potential and have a country based on social justice and fairness, not | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
division. That's not just a priority for people in my constituency, that | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
ends with the line in England and Scotland. Let's stop obsessing about | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
the issues of politics and talk about the real issues about how to | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
get genuine change in communities so every young person can be an asset | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
to this country and get jobs. APPLAUSE | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
You, there? George said it was his idea to introduce the 16 and | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
17-year-olds get. Ing the right to vote. When I voted 17, I wouldn't | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
have knew what to vote for, I don't think particularly giving it to | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
young people is the right option. Angus said that, yes. The person | :22:29. | :22:38. | |
over there in suspecticals on the left? Yes. -- stect Kells. An dues | :22:38. | :22:46. | |
-- spectacles. Angus mentioned jobs. Thousands of jobs are going to be | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
lost from companies moving down to England and moving down to the | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
defence contracts in this country. How on earth can you justify those | :22:54. | :23:01. | |
unemployed people? APPLAUSE | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
I've got a very clear idea of the kind of country I want to live in | :23:05. | :23:13. | |
and it's a country that doesn't use Trident or nuclear weapons for its | :23:13. | :23:13. | |
defence... APPLAUSE | :23:13. | :23:20. | |
It's a country that puts equality as THE most important social goal on | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
all policies which understands that inequality basically erodes trust | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
between us, between Government and citizens. It's a country that puts | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
education top and recognises early years education would transform life | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
and it's a country that embraces renewables, particularly Scotland, | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
because we are the Saudi Arabia of renewables and starts our engineer | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
engineering prospects back again by basing it on that. I have to ask | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
myself, how is that going to happen in my lifetime? Mine will be shorter | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
than yours. I would like to see change in my lifetime and I've | :23:57. | :24:05. | |
actually voted every party, I have to say except sorry Ruth, the | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
Tories... Still time.No, there's not. | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
APPLAUSE We have to make a judgment and next | :24:11. | :24:18. | |
year, as things stand, I will vote yes. Now, the reason I will vote yes | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
is not the great big yes that Angus has to do as a member of the | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
Scottish National Party and I just want to say this, I'm a journalist | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
and I want to be automobile to keep question policies that don't sound | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
quite right. All the sorts of aspects of the debate that make it a | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
hard one to be in and there's an important point in this. I come from | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
Northern Ireland originally and there are camps there, there's yes | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
and no, people who don't talk to each other now after 50 years of | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
trouble. We don't want to get to a stage where we can't talk to each | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
other easily about our future together. That's a consideration. | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
Having said all these qualifications, on balance I'll vote | :25:00. | :25:07. | |
yes. APPLAUSE | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
The man at the very back by the camera with the spectacles on, yes? | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
I would just like to say that I know that some of you say that if we | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
become independent we lose our influence in the Bank of England, | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
but the Bank of The UK is needed. Scotland has a 10% influence in the | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
Bank of England which we would maintain after independence if we | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
kept the pound. So there is no guarantee we'd lose it whatsoever. | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
Angus is churl churlish in his introductory remarks on the SNP. | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
They are a pointer, illuminating as to the kind of Scotland you as 16 | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
and 17-year-olds would inherit. His belief that someone like me has to | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
right to be on a BBC Question Time programme because I don't currently | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
have an address in Scotland is rather typical of the narrow minded | :26:01. | :26:08. | |
and narrow outlook that informs his kind of politics, similarly when | :26:08. | :26:17. | |
Nigel Farage was run out of Edinburgh as David put it... | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
APPLAUSE Not sure whether you are applauding | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
because you believe that. I wasn't run out, I was locked in a pub, all | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
right. That's what happened! George Galloway? Must have been | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
hell, Nigel, must have been hell. This is the point. When he was | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
treated in the way he was when he was in Edinburgh, Alex Salmond had | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
the opportunity to be statesmanlike, to deplore what had happened, to say | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
that everyone was welcome in Scotland, everyone with an elected | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
position, everyone with a following in the country had a right to speak | :26:55. | :27:05. | |
and be heard. But he didn't. He backed the people that saw the lead | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
of the UKIP which I deplore as a party, as it happens. But he is an | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
elected leader of a party with substantial support in these | :27:11. | :27:19. | |
islands. Not in Scotland. That's not the point. It is the point. | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
APPLAUSE Can I... There you go. Lesley is... | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
I'm not going to shout louder than you. Do you know the percentage vote | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
they got at the last election here? That's not the point. It's never the | :27:33. | :27:43. | |
:27:43. | :27:49. | ||
point. It was 0. 2... All of us have got the right to speak. Unless the | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
kind of Scotland you have in mind. Angus Robertson will decide who | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
appears on the BBC Question Time, rather than David Dimbleby. I don't | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
want to be in that kind of Scotland. I don't want to be in the kind of | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
country where politicians sit with a slide roll and say, you can be on, | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
but you can't because you no longer live here, you can't because you | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
have only got X number of votes. What I'm saying to you is, what | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
happened to Farage looked ugly in the rest of the country and the rest | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
of the world. And the SNP I fear will take you down a road where | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
grudge is everything. All right. Where grudge and | :28:29. | :28:37. | |
churlishness is everything. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
Angus, can you just reply on the narrow point of what George was | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
saying and the quote from Alex Salmond was "we can frankly do | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
without UKIP who dislike everybody and know absolutely nothing about | :28:47. | :28:55. | |
Scotland? " Do you concur with all that? I concur with it absolutely. | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
I'm proud that Scotland is a country that welcomes people from other | :29:01. | :29:09. | |
countries. It wasn't like that the other week, was it? | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
APPLAUSE It's hatred. Hatred. It's a country | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
built on immigration and welcoming people from other places. That's a | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
world of difference to disagreeing with the politics that you | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
represent, Nigel. It's a politics I deplore and I'm pleased you do not | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
have a single elected MP, MSP, or councillor in Scotland. You | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
represent next to nobody in Scotland. I'll defend your right to | :29:36. | :29:43. | |
speak but I would also like the right of people... I will reflect | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
and respect the right of people to protest and say, we do not like your | :29:48. | :29:58. | |
:29:58. | :30:03. | ||
to have a debate about what independents really means because I | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
think you have been sold a false debate. UKIP does exist in Scotland | :30:07. | :30:15. | |
and we are growing in the polls. are not. You seem to be of the same | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
school of thought, and it is astonishing that the UKIP -- the | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
Scottish media seem to think UKIP should not be allowed to express | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
their opinion in Scotland. What happened was an attempt to close | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
down my press conference when I was trying to have a debate. Any proper | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
democratic party will say whether we agree or disagree, you can put your | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
arguments. Your leader, Alex Salmond, made clear he was quite | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
happy for the nationalist movement to have within it very extreme | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
anti-democratic people that behaves like yobs. And that does not | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
represent the vast majority of decent Scottish people and I thought | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
Alex Salmond showed there is a very ugly side to this independence | :30:53. | :31:03. | |
:31:03. | :31:04. | ||
debate. You were saying you did not agree. Coming back to what the UKIP | :31:04. | :31:11. | |
leader said, Scottish people receive the same treatment heading down | :31:11. | :31:20. | |
south. Not politically, but within the streets themselves. I am sorry. | :31:20. | :31:28. | |
I am sorry. Enlarge on that point. What are you saying? Think about it. | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
You were seen out why these yobs, yet England is seen as a country | :31:33. | :31:41. | |
that defends itself, correct? England, glorious England. But when | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
we come down south, we are treated with the same disrespect that you | :31:44. | :31:54. | |
:31:54. | :31:54. | ||
were. Ruth Davidson. We have got away from what the question was | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
supposed to be about. What elephants would independents bring to young | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
people? All that we have had is three alpha males on the panel | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
shouting about petty niggles. Everyone should have a voice, but | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
people who ask legitimate questions should have them answered and should | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
not be told, when they are asking questions like this, that just | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
because you are asking a question you are doing Scotland down. People | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
deserve answers in the debate on independence. They deserve an | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
informed choice. I believe young people growing up in Scotland have a | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
gradient of opportunity because we are part of the United Kingdom. | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
Because we are part of the biggest trading block we have. We trade more | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
in Scotland with the rest of the UK than with the rest of the world | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
combined. One in five jobs in private-sector employment in | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
Scotland is in a company that is headquartered in England, or | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
Northern Ireland. We all benefit from the kind of research network | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
the question asked about among universities. We benefit from being | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
part of the United Kingdom that sits at the top table, whether at the | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
UN, the IMF, in the EU, the G8 group of developed nations. I think we | :33:05. | :33:12. | |
gain an awful lot. Whether it is even something as small to some | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
people... If you want to throw war into the mix, let's talk about | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
Kosovo. As a junior reporter, I saw what our forces did over there. We | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
helped to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide. We did that. Scottish | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
soldiers did that. I was watching the Black Watch do that. What has | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
that got to do with independence? Angus was saying we are not a force | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
for good in the world. I believe the UK is a force for good and we have | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
demonstrated that with the work our Armed Forces do overseas. I said at | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
the beginning of this question that you are divided fifth a 50, those | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
who are inclined to vote yes and no. I do not want to pick haphazardly. | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
-- 50 to 50. I would like to ask who is going to vote yes. The person | :34:08. | :34:16. | |
right at the back. We are talking about the benefits of independence | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
to young people. I do not feel young people within the UK are seeing many | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
benefits as being a member of the UK, because currently the child | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
poverty rate is so high. I do not believe it is helping us at all. | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
You, over there. Something came out that this is the first generation of | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
young people in the UK that are going to grow up poorer than their | :34:42. | :34:49. | |
parents since the early 1950s. Also, since the early 1950s, if you take | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
back the result of every general election in the UK and take | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
statistics out of it, you will see that the Scottish vote made | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
absolutely no difference. So representation does not come into it | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
and values do not come into it because it would not have made a | :35:03. | :35:11. | |
difference in the first place. I believe if we become independent | :35:11. | :35:21. | |
:35:21. | :35:23. | ||
we will be one step closer to finding aliens. What? In the front. | :35:23. | :35:31. | |
Did he say what I think he said? the list of the most peaceful | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
countries in the world, Ireland scored in the top ten and the UK did | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
not score anywhere near the top ten. In an independent Scotland without | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
Trident and things like that, we would be able to become one of the | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
more peaceful countries in the world. That might be true, but | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
remember, this independence debate is being had. The SNP are saying | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
vote for legal separation from the United Kingdom, and then let's join | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
the European Union, which, of course, is developing its own | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
foreign policy, its own military. And the most remarkable thing, | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
getting back to the original question, is that actually there | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
will be no benefits for young people, middle aged people or old | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
people, because you are not being asked to vote on independence. You | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
are swapping your masters from Westminster to Brussels. That is the | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
debate that needs to be had in Scotland. The SNP are not offering | :36:23. | :36:33. | |
independence. There are a couple of things that are important to | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
understand in the context of the independence debate, especially for | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
people who are not in Scotland. It is not just the SNP in favour of | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
independence. There are people in other parties in favour of | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
independence. There are people who are left of centre, right of centre, | :36:48. | :36:55. | |
young and old. This is not just a proposal from one political party. | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
Point two, this is about changing Scotland and Scottish democracy. At | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
the present time, we are governed by the leading party, the Conservative | :37:03. | :37:11. | |
party, that has one MP. Can you imagine a normal democracy where you | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
have governments elected with so little present nation? That is not | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
democracy. To go back to Nigel's point, if Scotland is sovereign, our | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
Parliament can make all the decisions. It can make the decision | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
to share sovereignty. I am in favour of sharing sovereignty and working | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
with other countries. It is about the ability to make law. The reality | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
is that we need to work with other countries, but what is critical is | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
that once Parliament is able to make all the decisions. The decisions | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
that will make the economy grow, make society more just and allow us | :37:47. | :37:54. | |
to play a direct role in the world. That is why I am sure that people | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
will vote for it. Why? Because 100 years ago there really were not that | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
many independent states in the world and members of the United Nations. | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
Now, there are over 200 and there is nobody going back and saying, I want | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
to be run from the masters, or the form of governance from the past. | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
Independence is the normal state for nations and gives the best | :38:17. | :38:23. | |
opportunity to everybody, young and old, and that is why I think we will | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
vote for it. I have to get in here because there are a lot of | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
pejorative words. Can you pick up the point that Angus made that there | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
is only one Tory MP in Scotland and yet a Tory government in Westminster | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
decides and that is not right and fair. There are SNP MPs in | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
Westminster. The point I wanted to pick up on was the pejorative terms | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
Angus is using about slaves and masters. I do not feel that the UK | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
is a master and I am a slave. We are part of a shared endeavour we have | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
built over 300 years. All of the things we have built and created | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
together, the work we have done together. When Angus Robertson talks | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
about polls and some people from some parties believing in | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
independence, not just the SNP, let's look at that. The last poll of | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
SNP voters, only 61% said they would vote yes. That was fewer than the | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
number of SNP voters that wanted an in-out referendum, which was 63%. | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
But they will not offer that. He is twisting the facts to fit his | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
agenda. We have to remember we are an integral part of the UK and | :39:31. | :39:39. | |
because Scotland is part of the UK, the UK is better for it. Recent | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
surveys show that the UK is the most regionally balanced country in | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
Europe. We have an overheated south that is causing problems for every | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
other part of the UK, probably more for northern parts of England than | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Is anybody else willing to | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
tackle that? Can we have a conversation in the UK about a | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
system here in which, unbelievably, according to analysts, one in 29 | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
Londoners are dollar millionaires. I checked that about three times. It | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
is almost impossible to believe. We have massive disparities of wealth | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
in this country. They are not just unequal. We are the fourth most | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
unequal state in the world, the UK. Now, is that the best we can do? And | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
is that really the future the UK offers? Is the mother of Parliament | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
is proud of having turnouts of 30%. We are the laughing stock of Europe | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
with these low turnouts, upon which massive decisions are made by a | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
centralised state in London, which is passing laws and policies that | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
suit that particular corner of the UK at the expense of everyone else. | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
If the rest of the UK was up for it, and in 2004 the north-east of | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
England, the Geordies, had the chance to vote, and 77% of them said | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
no. I started life, good grief, as a liberal. I believed in a federal | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
Britain. Is it ever going to happen? Evidently not. You have to get to a | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
stage when you think, what is likely to happen in my lifetime? Having a | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
proper, reasoned conversation about changing the whole lot written is | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
not possible when we are the Scots, we are the tail wagging the dog. The | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
dog is not interested in the vision we have for the future. And I think | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
that is why many people will finally come to a decision that they have to | :41:35. | :41:43. | |
do something a bit more radical to get that. We do not want to stay on | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
this for the rest of the programme but we will now switch and I would | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
like comments on what Leslie and Angus have said from those who say | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
they will vote no when the time comes next year. You, with the pink | :41:55. | :42:02. | |
shirt. I do not think that is what Scotland needs. It needs stability | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
and construction. This will lead us down a path where we have nothing to | :42:06. | :42:16. | |
:42:16. | :42:17. | ||
go. And you in the front.I would say I would vote to know at the | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
moment but I am on the fence. At the moment, the independence debate has | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
ended up being quite ugly, in that we have people very much for it and | :42:25. | :42:31. | |
spouting the good things, and people very much against it. I do not think | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
we are hearing much balance in terms of, this is what would happen to the | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
economy, these are the benefits for young people and these are the | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
drawbacks. I think there needs to be more clarity. I absolutely agree | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
with that. We need politics and debate based on fact and not on myth | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
and assertion, which is what we have had from the SNP so far. It is a | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
case of saying, what you like will stay the same and the things you do | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
not like will not happen any more. People in big business will cut | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
corporation tax, and at the same time it is saying to trade unions | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
and the third sector we will have record levels of public services. | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
That is not being straight. You cannot have Scandinavian levels of | :43:14. | :43:21. | |
public services and the tax system of Monaco. It is not credible, not | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
good arithmetic. But the wider point about the politics you have seen on | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
the panel today, you have one political party that wants to divide | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
by people's origin within communities, another that wants to | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
divide our country by those who are in work and those who are out of | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
work, those who are skiving and those who are striving, and one | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
political party that wants to divide based upon where you live in the UK. | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
We need a politics and government in this country that does not run by | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
the politics of division in principle -- and grievance, but by | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
the principle of equality for everyone, no matter where they live | :43:52. | :44:02. | |
:44:02. | :44:04. | ||
in the UK. This is to the SNP and it's in terms of education and an | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
independent Scotland. Showerly the SNP can be accused of using the sort | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
of tactics that now 16 and 17-year-olds are allowed to vote, | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
it's the exact point the SNP have decided to introduce the new higher | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
literature and English. Surely this is tactical by the SNP and therefore | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
just like providing nationalism to 16 and 17-year-olds to hope to trick | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
us into voting, rather than presenting a case as to why | :44:28. | :44:38. | |
independence is actually good? It would be tremendously patronising | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
for any politician or political party to suggest that because you | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
learn the literature or the history or your own country, you are going | :44:45. | :44:52. | |
to vote in your own way and make up your own mind. | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
APPLAUSE One in 29 members of the Groucho | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
club in London might be dollar millionaires, but I can assure you, | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
there are millions of people in London that are very far from being | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
millionaires. This kind of false dichotomy that Lesley drew is the | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
same as the one Angus drew, that there are masters and servants. I'll | :45:14. | :45:20. | |
tell you where that leads - to the misguided young man in the front row | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
who thinks that English people set about Scottish people in England. If | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
you turned on the television, if you read the major newspapers, if you | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
listened to Parliament, if you look at the captains of business and | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
industry and Trade Unions in England, it's full of Scottish | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
people. Scottish people are never set upon in England. But the fact | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
that that young man, fine young man, thought that, thinks that, is a | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
direct result of this kind of talk that in London they are all dollar | :45:55. | :46:03. | |
millionaires. In London they are all dollar millionaires, masters and we | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
are servants. There are no English tanks in Scotland. Scottish people | :46:08. | :46:14. | |
could have voted to be a separate country at any time in the last 90 | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
years of universal sufferage. They decided not to on every occasion. I | :46:19. | :46:26. | |
pray they'll do so again when the reference referendum comes. What we | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
end up doing here, and I also didn't say everyone in London is a dollar | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
millionaire, can we just stop this, some things are like this in life, | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
some things are others. We can get to a stage where we can surely | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
accept there is no guarantees for anything in the future. Could you | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
guarantee what, for example, the UK Government will give us by way of | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
benefits for Bradford, even? I'm astonished, George, because, can I | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
ask you a question, I know you are used to holding fort, but I would | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
like to ask you something. There is mass unemployment throughout this | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
country, mass poverty throughout this country, stop making false | :47:03. | :47:09. | |
divisions, false dichotomies. ask you a question? David, can I ask | :47:09. | :47:15. | |
him a question. It's simply not true and giving this emthe wrong | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
impression, they are not dollar million theirs. Can I ask you a | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
question? Ask a question, by all means. Keep it brief. George, answer | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
briefly. I want to keep moving because we have only got ten minutes | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
left in this programme and we are not sticking with independence. | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
the bedroom tax help people in Bradford? No.Then why... You have | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
had one question. Fine. It could have been turned into David | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
Cameron's poll tax and could have brought him down. That's a bigger | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
betrayal of working class people throughout these islands. | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
All right. Just as a coder, a tail point to | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
this, Scott Mann has a question and I want the panel to say what they | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
think of it having heard what you have all said. Scott Mann? It's been | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
referred to briefly but I would like to point out that 16 and | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
17-year-olds aren't experienced enough to vote in the referendum. Do | :48:11. | :48:19. | |
the panel agree? Do you agree? He thinks 16 and 17s don't have enough | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
experience to vote? Do you agree? think they should vote. They can get | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
married, join the Army, smoke. APPLAUSE | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
You are against this? It's not about age, it's about a cut-off. You don't | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
change the vote for just one poll, which is what is happening at the | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
referendum. We have taken advice, we looked at the majority, they said 18 | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
was about right, it's where a lot of countries have it around the world, | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
we are happy with that and don't see an overwhelming need for change. | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
vast number of 18-year-olds is not voting in any form. Should 16 or | :48:56. | :49:03. | |
17-year-olds vote on this? For a one-off basis, doing this once, is | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
silly and cheap. Lesley? 16-year-olds can vote because you | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
can be taxed. If you leave school, you can have a job and you can be | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
taxed. If the old taxation without representation. You should be able | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
to vote when you are going to be paying tax in a world that expects | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
you to be acting as an adult. APPLAUSE | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
Behind the question, would you like a gruen versal franchise for 16 and | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
17-year-olds? Not just the referendum but in every election | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
campaign. I'm delighted that 60% of the people in the poll last week | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
said they would vote. But the important point is not enough just | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
to give young people the vote. We need to make sure politics talks | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
about issues that young people talk about so they come out and use the | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
vote when they have the right to do it. We don't need to ask you, we | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
know the answer. I'm Scottish, why don't I have a vote on the future of | :50:00. | :50:08. | |
the country. You don't live here. It's a big decision. | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
Self-determination is for people who live somewhere to make a decision | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
that. 's why those registered o vote in Scotland will be making that | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
decision. Should 16, 17-year-olds be able to vote? Yes, we proposed it. | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
It shouldn't just be for the referendum but for all elections, we | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
need o to reconnect the young with the democratic process. This is a | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
good way of doing it. The last question, it's not about | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
independence for Scotland. It's from Cameron Gilchrist? I would like to | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
ask, should the UK intervene in Syria? | :50:42. | :50:48. | |
Should the UK intervene in Syria? Do you have a view on this? Yes, fire | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
away and we'll come to the panel next? I think yes, obviously | :50:52. | :51:02. | |
:51:02. | :51:07. | ||
definitely, it should be allowed to intervene in Syria. All the | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
ridiculous things that are happening there, but, you know, the current | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
issue is actually the UN. The UN has this thing called the UN Security | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
Council where there are five permanent seats and they are allowed | :51:14. | :51:16. | |
to veto which means that you can stop, it's China, Russia, France, | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
USA and Britain, and then you have like other countries, so that's like | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
say, and if you can veto, that means no matter what, if nine out of ten | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
voted yes, it just doesn't happen. But go to the point, you would like | :51:27. | :51:37. | |
to see the UK intervening now? Almost 100,000 people killed since | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
the uprising began. You have got 1. 6 million refugees, half of whom are | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
children and 4. 6 million people in need of urgent humanitarian | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
assistance. This is time for urgent national response, not to get | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
weapons to people to they can kill each other, but to get a peaceful | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
resolution and get people round the table and have a diplomatic | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
solution. Let's be clear and learn the lessons from history. The rebels | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
may have the negative effect of escalating the violence, prolonging | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
Civil War and having a Cold War biproxy between the UK and others | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
and Russia. That's not a good thing. Let's learn lessons from Iraq and | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
Afghanistan and let's have a solution that brings a meaningful | :52:21. | :52:29. | |
dialogue and supports peace, not violence. Violence solves nothing. | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
APPLAUSE Nigel Farage? Go into war and | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
intervening in war is the biggest decision a Government can make. Yet | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
from the time of Blair onwards, we seem to, with glee, go to war or | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
intervene in wars, without ever thinking through who is it we are | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
actually supporting, what is the long-term consequence of our action | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
going to be? It's perfectly clear that within the rebel groups in | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
Syria, there is some very strong linkage with Al-Qaeda. We could load | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
these guys up with guns and rockets that one day might actually be used | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
against British soldiers. We don't know what we are doing, our history | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
of intervening in wars in the Middle East over the course of the last | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
decade shows we have not made anything better without a clear | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
objective, without understanding who the rebels are. We shouldn't even | :53:18. | :53:27. | |
consider getting involved in my opinion. | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
APPLAUSE Ruth? There are two priorities, to | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
deal with the people being affected by this, the families of the 93,000 | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
dead, the 1. 5 million refugees, that will rise to 3. 5 million | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
people, that's more than the entire population of Wales and the | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
Government's put aid in to help those directly affected. The second | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
priority is to find some way of a negotiated settlement, a peace | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
transition Government. What does that mean to you, to intervene? | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
have to get Assad around the table at the conference being planned. | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
He's waiting for the opposition to arrive. He's already at the table. | :54:05. | :54:12. | |
George, far be it for me to see you stand up and defend another dictator | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
in that part of the world, but... APPLAUSE | :54:15. | :54:22. | |
The idea that Assad is coming to that table, He's already there.To | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
form a transition Government and to take himself out of the government | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
is an absolute nonsense. This brief that you have been given from | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
William Hague's Foreign Office just won't do. The Syrian regime has been | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
at the negotiating table from the beginning, following the Kofi Annan | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
plan. The UN Special Envoy had exactly the democratic transition | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
that you are talking about. It's the fact that you are already | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
intervening, giving guns and money to Al-Qaeda who cut people's chests | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
open and eat their hearts on video and post it on YouTube. If that | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
murderer in Woolwich had gone to Damascus instead, William Hague | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
would have given him money because we are backing these kind of | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
extremist Al-Qaeda maniacs in Syria. You are already intervening. The | :55:18. | :55:28. | |
intervention we need is to force the Syrian opposition to go under US and | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
Russian chairmanship to Geneva and make them sit around the table until | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
they've got an agreement that will be a political transition to | :55:36. | :55:45. | |
democracy. How's that for you? ! We are being exhorted quite rightly | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
to learn the lessons from history and it's not that long ago that we | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
armed the Taliban because we thought it was a tremendously good thing | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
that they should fight the Soviet Union. | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
APPLAUSE Them a number of decades later, | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
those very same people are killing service people from the UK and | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
elsewhere. We haven't learned the lesson of history in Afghanistan and | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
I fear we are not going to learn the lesson of history in relation to | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
Syria. Should we intervene? We should not do that by arming one | :56:14. | :56:19. | |
side. Do we actual actually thawns Russia is arming the Assad regime to | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
the teeth? Do we think that selling arms to one side of the conflict | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
which will then be answered by the Russians providing more weapons opt | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
other side will bring peace? That is the road to disaster. The young man | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
brought up the United Nations but it's hardly even been reported so | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
far, the United Nations is finding it unable to provide peacekeepers to | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
the border between Israel and Syria. Danger is not just the nearly | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
100,000 people who've died in Syria, it's the potential for a confluct | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
across that region you and we should not be helping a disaster like that | :56:52. | :56:59. | |
-- conflict. I think there is a lot of agreement | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
here. If you remember the pictures that have been coming in, it's the | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
sense of impotence you have when you watch children and they've been the | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
biggest casualties, the report out today saying 93,000 people have been | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
killed disproportionately children have died in Syria. Now, watching | :57:16. | :57:23. | |
that, as we have done, without feeling any way that we can manage | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
to effect some fairness and relief for those people or encourage any | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
kind of hope that there would be a resolution there, has been a | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
horrible thing to sit through to not be able to effect this. But now we | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
are at a stage where some of the rebel groups are a dangerous group, | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
set of groups, to arm. So I think we have to get to a stage, and I sigh | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
there's been a bit of backtracking now from the Conservatives, we have | :57:50. | :57:56. | |
to get to a stage with we get some peace talks on the go. That might | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
sound like Pius hopes, but despite what we have seen, it's the best | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
hope and we have to go for it. people with hair hands up and I | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
can't call on any of you. Very sorry. Thank you for the part you | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
have played so far, time's up. I can't do anything about that. I | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
would like to go on longer but I can't. Next week, when Question Time | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
is going to be in London, and we have the Mayor of London, Boris | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
Johnson, on the panel, the comedian Russell Brand, you are welcome to | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
come! The Daily Mail columnist Melanie | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
Phillips, Tessa Jowell for Labour and Ed Davey for the Liberal | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
Democrats. After that we'll be in Newcastle and if you want to come to | :58:35. | :58:40. | |
London or Newcastle, the rules are the same as they always are, the | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
address is on the screen or you can call us. If you are listening on | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
Five Live, you can call in and continue the debate now on Question | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
Time Extra Time. I hope you can do that. Meantime from here, just to | :58:52. | :58:56. |