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welcome to Question Time. As ever, welcome to you at home, to | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
our audience who will be putting the questions, and to our panel, who do | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
not know the questions until they hear them. The Conservative Defence | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
Secretary, Philip Hammond, Labour's shadow health minister, Liz | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
Kendall, former leader of the Liberal Democrats Charles Kennedy, | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
philosopher and writer Roger Scruton, and the author of many | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
novels, Jeanette Winterson. Excellent. Sandra Seldon has the | :00:43. | :01:04. | |
first question. Do Iain Duncan Smith's welfare reforms represent a | :01:05. | :01:13. | |
moral mission? This is in the light of the Archbishop Nichols of the | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
Roman Catholic Church saying they were a disgrace, the Church of | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
England today saying there was a moral imperative to act, and the | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
Prime Minister, rebutting all of this, saying the Tories are on a | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
social and moral mission. Charles Kennedy. First things first, I have | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
been a critic of some of these welfare reforms the coalition has | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
brought forward. I have spoken against some and voted against some | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
in the House of Commons. So I am perhaps not the best proponent of | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
the argument. But going to the nub of the question, the moral | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
dimensional, I think it is very appropriate that the clergy speak | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
out on social issues which have a moral dimensional. I think they have | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
every right to. They have done so under successive governments. It is | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
the mark of a smaller liberal democracy that they should do so | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
whenever any combination of parties is in power. Secondly, I think if | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
you look at the letter published today in the Daily Mirror from | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
church leaders, I listened to an interview this afternoon on my | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
travel getting here today, with the Bishop of Manchester. He was making | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
the point that quite a lot of the government's aims they were not | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
disagreeing with, but they were pointing out gross deficiencies in | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
the welfare system. Leave aside the specific changes the government is | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
making. You can be critical aspects of those, against them and so on, | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
but the endemic problems within the benefit system, of people changing | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
from one category to another, getting wrongly assessed, | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
encountering delays, having to go to food banks even if they were in | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
employment, because there were gaps in their benefit payments, or the | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
sustainability of their income. These are all things that needed to | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
be looked at. Did you agree that half a million people in this | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
country regularly go hungry? Well, I am not in a position to criticise it | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
or to undermine that argument. You only need to listen to what | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
nutritionists in the clinical profession are saying about two | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
contradictory things. One, the prevalence of obesity in society, | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
but that the other end, too many children in particular going to | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
school not properly nourished. Roger Scruton. I agree that this is a | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
conflict question which has been wound into politics at a time when | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
everybody is looking for some kind of moral crusade to conduct. I would | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
say of course this is a moral issue. It is a moral issue because people | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
are suffering and people need to be supported if they have come to the | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
stage when they can't support themselves. It is also a moral issue | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
because a vast number of people feel that the benefit system is being | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
exploited by those who are using it for their own benefit and not taking | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
responsibility for their own lives. That is a moral question, to, the | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
extent to which individual citizens ought to be responsible for their | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
own lives. And I think all the reforms, as I understand them, have | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
been brought about because there is widespread discontent with this fact | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
that the benefits system creates a culture of dependence, where people | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
come to it wanting and needing it, of course, because that is the way | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
it has turned out for them, but nevertheless not accepting that it | :04:47. | :04:48. | |
is their responsibility to do something about it. | :04:49. | :04:59. | |
Sandra, what did you make of what the Archbishop and the bishops of | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
the Church of England said? My view is that I feel there is a moral | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
mission in regard to benefit fraudsters, who we all want to see | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
sorted. But unfortunately they only represent a small percentage of | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
people who desperately need welfare support and might be in a great deal | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
of hardship as a result of these reforms, so I agree with the | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
Archbishop. When the Prime Minister says he is on a social and moral | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
mission with welfare reforms, do you agree? That is what I mean, it is | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
only in the sense that it is targeting a few, rather the majority | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
who need welfare support. -- rather than the majority. | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
I think the benefit fraud is a smoke screen which hides the impact on | :05:50. | :05:51. | |
people with autism and other disabilities. I spend a lot of my | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
day job hearing from parents and adults with autism and other | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
disabilities and hearing about the impact that the assessment of | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
benefits through and trained assessors is having on their lives, | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
and depriving them of the basic support that they need to live their | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
life, which can be washing, shopping, going out and trying to | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
get a job. I really do think that some of the rhetoric in the media | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
around benefits and benefit fraud is hiding that impact. | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
Philip Hammond, would you like to answer his point? Firstly, I don't | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
think many people would have an issue with the need to clamp down on | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
benefit fraud. But equally, benefit fraud is a relatively limited | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
problem. The moral mission David Cameron was referring to is a much | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
broader one. It is about getting away from a system that for many | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
years, under governments of all colours, has simply dumped people on | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
welfare for the long-term, has not helped them to help themselves, has | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
not recognised that the only really sustainable way the people to get | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
out of poverty and to stay out of poverty is to help them into work, | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
if they are able to work. And the mission we have set ourselves is to | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
make sure that the welfare system supports those who cannot work, | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
because it is morally right that we should, but for those who can work, | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
we help them with the right incentives, the right skills, to get | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
back into work. And it is not just about welfare reform. It is about | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
immigration reform. It is about creating jobs in society so that the | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
jobs are there for people. It is about reforming our educational | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
system, so that people have the skills that will allow them to learn | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
a pay packet, and that in turn gives them the security and the peace of | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
mind that families need. Are you made uneasy when you have ahead of | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
the Roman Catholic Church saying the welfare are punitive and a disgrace, | :07:55. | :07:56. | |
the Archbishop of Canterbury welfare are punitive and a disgrace, | :07:57. | 2:40:04 | |
that government policy means children and families pay the price | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
for high inflation, rather than the government? Are you uneasy at the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
moral issue, the moral charge being laid against you, the charge of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
immorality? Like Charlie Kennedy, I think it is perfectly acceptable for | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
churchmen to engage in this kind of debate. It is an ethical issue and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
they have a right to engage in the debate. I don't very much like the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
choice of language. When I looked at Archbishop Nichols' article, there | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
were quite a number of things in it which I could agree with. What I | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
don't, of course, except is the implication that there is in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
morality in the motive. We are trying to do what is right. We are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
trying to help people to be able to help themselves, get them to ring | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
gauge with work, get them to acquire the skills that they will need. -- | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
get them to engage with work. Do the things that most of us take for | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
granted, hold down a job, support our families, bring home a pay | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
packet. The woman in the fifth row down. When the welfare system was | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
first set up, it was supposed to be a safety net for those who had | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
fallen on hard times. I think what we are seeing right here, right now | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
is not a new problem. This is something that has been growing and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
building steadily for the last 20, possibly even 30 years, which is why | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
right here, right now, the enormity of the problem is just so big. Are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
you sympathetic to what Ian Duncan and the Prime Minister are trying to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
do? I am sympathetic. We absolutely need to ensure that we care for the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
vulnerable people, disabled people in society, the people who are just | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
not in a position to help themselves for one reason or another. But I | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
think for too long there are people who have been exploiting the system. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
The man up there. A banker, a Daily Mail reader and a single mum on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
benefits sat down to have a packet of a dozen biscuits. The banker took | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
11 biscuits and whispered to the Daily Mail reader, watch out for | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
her, she is trying to Nick your biscuits. It has always been the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
case, throughout history, that the rich and powerful turn to the people | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
who work and make them turn against the people who can't work. This is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
exactly what is happening now. Jeanette Winterson. Do you agree. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Yes. There are all kinds of benefit fraud. Three more people have been | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
indicted for rigging the LIBOR rate. Google and Amazon fine perfectly | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
legal loopholes so they don't have to pay the taxes that they should | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
pay. -- they find legal loopholes. We just sold Royal Mail at a huge | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
loss to the taxpayer. That money could have gone on welfare benefits, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to a lot of good causes. Instead, it went to make rich people richer. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
That is not a good system. The postmen did not. I asked my post man | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
if he was going to buy shares and he said he could not afford them and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the bank would not lend him money. People who ran the post offices were | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
not even offered shares. It is rubbish to say the postmen have got | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
rich cause of the Royal Mail sell-off. They have not. Everybody | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
who worked for the Royal Mail got shares. And they did not get rich. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
You know where the money went. Do you know where it went? I want to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
continue. The moral issue is, if you read the Bible, I do not see any | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
sign of Jesus advocating tax breaks for the rich. I see him feeding the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
5000, going to the rich man and saying, give away everything to the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
poor if you want to enter the kingdom of heaven, sitting with | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
prostitutes. There are many right-wing so-called Christians who | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
believe somehow that the poor are responsible for all of their own | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
problems and nobody needs to do anything. I have one more thing to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
say which is this. If we create a society where people can have work, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
dignified work, where they can hold up their head, earn a living wage to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
support themselves and their families, that is a different thing. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
You can work 60 hours a week on the minimum wage and not be able to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
support your family. So all of this rhetoric about get out there and get | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
a job, even if you get a job you are still going to get into debt, you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
can't afford a house, can't support your family. David Cameron has never | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
been hungry in his life and does not know anybody who has ever been | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
hungry. He is not fit to be prime minister. Liz Kendall. Do you agree? | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I think having a job and earning a decent wage gives people a sense of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
dignity for having the self-reliance that they can look after themselves | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
and their families. And I think it is a mark of a moral society that we | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
look after the people who cannot support themselves. The problem is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that what the government is doing is not working. We have a work | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
programme that in many places is worse than having nothing at all. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
And we are having people who are severely sick and disabled, whose | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
partners all loved ones are looking after them but need to sleep in a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
separate bedroom, who are being made to pay the bedroom tax. I think | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people are asking, if it is not really helping people get work and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
earn a decent wage, and if the government is also penalising some | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of the poorest and most vulnerable, they don't think that is fair. And I | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
think it is right that the bishops have spoken about that. We want a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
system where people have strong incentives and support to work, but | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that is not happening. And we need a proper safety net for those who | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
can't, and that is not happening either. When I see in my | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
constituency 200 tonnes of food each year going out through food banks, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people are not going to food banks because it is easier than popping to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Tesco or Sainsbury is. Rachel Reeves. It is Liz Kendall, not | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Rachel Reeves. Are you flattered by the comparison? Most flattered. I do | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
not think people are going to food banks because it is easier than | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
popping to the supermarket, they are going because they are desperate and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
we need to address that. Can you remind the audience how many | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of our welfare reforms the Labour Party has supported? Labour wants to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
avoid the difficult decisions. No, we don't. How much have you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
supported? Have you supported the cap on benefits that stops people on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
benefits being able to earn more than a family in work? We think the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
way you have done it, hasn't worked. Have you supported the cap on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
housing benefit. We wanted a compulsory job scheme where people | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
are offered work -- How long is it funded for? You scrapped our Future | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Jobs Fund, which was far more successful than your work programme. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Your programme is funded for one year. Rachel Reeves has admitted as | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
much. Is All benefits would benefit from comparative judgments. With | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
what country are we comparing ours when we make these great decisions? | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Everywhere that I've read about, including America, France, Germany | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
as well, has had this problem about the welfare system and the claimants | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of the people claiming benefit and how to rectify the all the political | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
imbalances and the resentments that come from this. It's not as though | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
we were facing this alone. The policies that the Government are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
proposing have their parallel elsewhere in Europe and elsewhere in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the world. In what way is our country supposed to be doing | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
something morally despicable? Is it perhaps everybody is in this | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
position? Is Hang on a second. Let me bring in members of the audience. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I will come back to the panel. One of the major problems we have got is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
not how much people get, it's how they spend it. One of the most | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
immoral things we have ever done in this country is the relaxation of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
all the gambling laws. So many people who are poor find gambling so | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
attractive. All right. You sir, over here on the right. Can we get back | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to the question. Get back to it, yes. The clergy have commented that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the well fair safety net is shredded. The Mr Cameron, his | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
policies, he's got every faith in them surely the question is one of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
timing. The policies that Mr Cameron has advocated and they may work, or | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
may not, their medium and long-term policies. They are already working. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
We are seeing people - Excuse me, I'm speaking. The clergy are talking | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
about a situation here and now. The clergy... We get the point. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Recognise... Charles Kennedy. People cannot live on hope as Mr Cameron | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
has said. OK, Charles Kennedy. I couldn't help but smile actually, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the gentleman at the front who mentioned gamble. Harry Macmillan, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
when he was Chancellor or Prime Minister, he introduced premium | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
bonds. The Archbishop of Canterbury of the day condemned them for the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
institutionalisation of gambling. His answer was, unlike His Grace the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Archbishop I don't think it's my job to (inaudible (is (politicians | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
should tread with infinite care. I appreciate that David Cameron has | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
been pulled onto the moral argument in response to what has been said | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
this week. I do think that Macmillan had a point, that morality is better | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
perhaps in the pulpit than in party politics. In that sense. It's not | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
right. Do we want to be to be a moral people or not? Is I don't | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
think you want moral lectures from people like the three of us in that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
sense. It's not about lectures. What kind of people do we want to be. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
That is a different thing. Britain over took Germany for the many | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
market for Ferraris. We are rich. We can afford to look after our people. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
You can't hive off the moral argument saying it's for church, not | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
for politicians. You sir. I think with this issues like this people | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
tend to talk about the benefit fraudsters and the poor suffering | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people that do deserve benefits. The problem in the middle that is the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
biggest problem because a lot of people that are scrounging off | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
benefits, within the eyes of the law, are more than deserving of it. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Because the system doesn't dictate who properly who should have it and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
who shouldn't. I think that's the biggest problem we need to tackle. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
You have raised a really important point, which is that more than | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
two-thirds of people living in poverty now are actually in work. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
And the problem is that our economy has too long relied on low skill, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
low paid jobs. We haven't taken the long-term decisions we need to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
invest in skills, technology and our infrastructure. Actually, we need to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
shift our mind set here. We are never going to succeed in our | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
families or communities or as a country if we try and fight a race | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to the bottom. Actually, it is that issue of people who are in work, but | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
on low pay, and aren't able to get the skills and the jobs they need to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
really build a better life. We have got to shift our economy. You | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
describe it, what are you going to do? Is I will tell you. The The | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
description is accepted? Sort out on the problems of housing, we need | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
more social and affordable housing so people can get on the housing | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
ladder. Transform skills so that we have the skills for the future. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Thirdly, I'd like to see a new system of regional banks that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
support different parts of the country so we are not perhaps so | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
dominated by London and the south-east. That would make a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
difference. People within the eyes of the law are deserving of these | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
benefits, morally they are not. It's costing the system how many billions | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of pounds a year when that money should be going somewhere else. It's | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
not the raw sters, in the legal sense of the world, that is the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
problem. I doubt there is that many in comparison, as Phillip touched | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
on. What do you mean people who deserve it's morally wrong they take | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
it? The way the system is dictated at the moment, a lot of people are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
claiming benefits legally that from a moral point of view, to most | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people's standards shouldn't be deserving of it Why? They are not | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
disabled, no problem with their skills. They could be in work. They | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
should be in work, they, for whatever reason, choose not to be. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Isn't that our obligation to create a system where the incentives point | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people strongly towards work? I agree with Rachel. Yes! There is no | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
future for Britain as a low wage economy. We need to be a high skill, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
high wage, high productivity economy. We need to point people | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
towards work. We need to give them the skills to be able to earn. The | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
so that they can deliver the security that the their families | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
need. What will you do about the minimum wage that doesn't pay his | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
bills? Shall I pin this! One more point from the man at the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
back there. I agree with Rachel as well! I think the chap with his pact | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of biscuits is quite frankly crackers. This is all... This is not | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
about bankers, trying to get people into work. I don't think we should | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
apologise for having a debate about that. Being on benefits is no fun. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
It's extremely difficult. But, you know, it's detrimental to people's | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
long-term physical and mental health as well as their wallets. The | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
government's efforts to take people out of tax at a low level are to be | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
welcomed. This is about getting people into jobs because it's | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
long-term in their best interests. In society's best interests. A topic | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I know we will come back to in the following... In successive weeks. If | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
you want to join in the debate you can, Twitter. You can follow us at | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
BBC Question Time. If you are texting our number is: 83981. The | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
red Tton will tell you what people are saying. A question now from | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Philip Webb. In view of the recent events, why are we still planning to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
build on floodplains in Swindon and elsewhere? Are you building on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
floodplains in Swindon? There is planning permission gone out. , the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
area has been flooded for donkey years, everybody knows about it. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
It's still going ahead. Do you know why it's happening? I have no idea. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
They keep saying about the farmers not doing the drains and everything | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
else. You need to go down the roads around here locally and you will see | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
they are flood ared even though the farmers dig them out all the time. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Let us not talk about, we talked about the floods last week. Let us | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
talk about the planning, the building planning on floodplains. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Roger Scruton, you are a countryman and follow country events. What is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
your view about the planning decisions? Is Well, there are two | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
enormous problems that we confront, one is that obviously the British | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
weather, the English weather in particular. Which has always been | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
unpredictable, suddenly this year become much worse than normal. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
That's not something you can plan for. Secondly, our country is over | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
populated. England in particular. We have to build somewhere to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
accommodate the people. Without a long-term policy about population | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
and demographics there will be no answer to this. People are going to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
have to build on the territory adjacent to towns. Some of that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
territory is going to be in a floodplain. I think it's not the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
planners that are responsible for the problems. They do their best to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
avoid that, they still have to answer to the nation's need for new | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
homes. OK. The Phillip Hammond, you are taken your boots off to come in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
here tonight. You seem to have been everywhere over the last fortnight. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I thought you had given up being Secretary of State for Defence and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
become Secretary of State for Floods? No Secretary of State for | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Defence and defence has been glad it has played a constructive role in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
responding to the crisis. The problem we have got, we are - | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
southern England is a a low-lying bit of the country. 13% of England | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
is floodplain. Unfortunately, the floodplains are often the places | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
where economic activity is happening, for historical reasons, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
much of London is a floodplain. I don't think it's practical to say, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
no building at all in floodplains. Clearly, we must avoid building in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the highest flood risk areas. Where we do allow any building in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
floodplains we have to make sure that building is a-- accompanied by | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
investment in flood eleavation and protection schemes so that, if you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
take a floodplain, like the Thames Valley, my constituency, significant | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
part of which was flooded over the last 10 days, there are parts, new | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
developments that haven't flooded at all because they had been well | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
constructed with proper defences. Other relatively new developments | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that have gone under at the first signs of the Thames over topping its | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
banks. We have to get the balance right. We can, I think, build some | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
development in floodplains, but we have to do it properly. We musn't | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
scrimp. You, sir, up there. Every year we seem to be hearing about | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
another year of floods. 2007, 2010 and now. Surely, we need a long-term | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
plan to deal with these floods they are becoming more and more common. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
We have one. Ha what are we going to do about it? What is your long-term | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
plan? For the first time we have set out a five-year forward plan for | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
flood defence investment. The Environment Agency can start | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
planning. We have invested - You are not going to stop flooding? We are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
making great progress. Everybody has focussed over the last couple of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
weeks, rightly, on the properties that have flooded. For any person | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
whose property floods, that is a tragedy. We should also remember | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that 1.3 million homes in this country are protected by flood | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
defences. In 2 #0 7 we had floods, 55,000 homes flooded. In 2013/14, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
this flooding event, we have had 6,500 homes flooded because we have, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
under both this Government and the previous government, invested in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
flood defences. The situation is getting better. The woman at the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
back there, the second row. Going back to the first question on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
building on floodplains. Yes. I wonder why we are allowing people to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
legislate greenfield sites. Due to the economic downturn we have any | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
number of unused brownfield sites that are unused. We know these sites | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
are useable and relatively safe for buildings, why aren't we developing | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
these rather than building on sites used for agriculture and other | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
enterprises? Is Who wants to take that one on? Is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I think it is a good point and the right point that we do not use | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Brownfield sites sufficiently well, or make in the city is more | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
attractive. There are plenty of places we could think about | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
imaginatively for housing, not the obvious Greenfields targets. Flood | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
plains are a problem. It is no good saying it is getting wetter and 13% | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of England is flood plains. With respect, James Lovelock was saying | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
in the 1970s that the result of climate change for the UK would be | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that we would get wetter and wetter. That was in the mid-1970s, James | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Lovelock stood up and said, this is what climate change will mean for | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the UK. He has been proved right. Everybody laughed at him. Climate | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
change is real. Nobody has mentioned it yet, but it is real and we are in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
it. There are things we are going to have to do as a country, and looking | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
larger, for global action, otherwise we will not have a planet to live | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
on, never mind flood plains and Brownfield sites. We will | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
destabilise so much of our fragile planet that we will cause real | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
catastrophes. But we still have to build houses in Britain. What do you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
think? We are talking a lot about expensive flood defence schemes. Why | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
aren't we going back to the basic geography of maintaining flood | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
plains and keeping with the channels as they used to be? There were | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
photographs of the press this week of river channels taken in the 1960s | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
this wide. And this year, they just don't have the capacity. This is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
fundamental, O-level geography. Is it as simple as that, Charles | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Kennedy? I don't know, Jonathan. The lady is making a very serious | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
point, because whatever government is in power there will be more | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
pressure for housing for all of the very good reasons outlined earlier. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I have not seen the figures in England lately, but last time I was | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
looking at them, they are astonishing. If you look at the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
numbers, the total numbers for England and Wales, these figures | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
were, those categorised as homeless, and then you look at the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
number of empty properties that are not being utilised, particularly on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
old-fashioned high streets, above the shops. Back in the day, the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
shopkeeper lived over the premises. That has gone. You have all sorts of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
social problems that have come. The police will tell you, you can have | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
CCTV and this and that, the best security that you can have in a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
township setup is actually having people living in the middle of the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
place. APPLAUSE | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
You address a lot of social problems, from homelessness to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
disorder in the streets, but you also begin to cut into the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
relentless erosion, if you will pardon the pun, of natural land, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
which we are building and building on and yet it is finite and we can't | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
cope with the capacity that we have got. Thank you, Nigel! That Lady's | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
point about managing the flood plains is absolutely valid. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
However, if government and local authorities are going to continue to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
authorise building on flood plains, they should provide the funds to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
prevent flooding. In Germany, I think in Hamburg, they built a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
complete business sector on a flood plain and they put their defences in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
place and it has never ever been flooded. If we are going to still | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
keep building on flood plains we should be prepared to spend the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
money to stop the houses and other properties flooding. Liz Kennedy. I | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
wanted to come back to the point that the gentleman in the check | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
shirt made about we have to have a long-term plan for this. Certainly, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I think the government's climate change committee has said the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
investment in the flood defences is about half a million down on what it | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
should be, and if it was in place we would make sure that we would not | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
end up spending up to about ?3 billion in terms of the cost of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
failure. This comes back to a point we have been talking about before, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
which is to shift our thinking to the longer term. I do agree with | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
your initial point, which is that it does not make sense to people to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
build a huge numbers of houses on areas that are really at risk, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
because then you will have to spend even more on the defences. So we | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
need a balance, and we also need to critically start waking up to the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
bigger, longer issue of climate change. We know the world is getting | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
warmer and that is creating more moisture. It means when stormy | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
conditions happen, it makes rain more intense. That is a medium to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
long-term issue that we have to face up to. We can do a lot in this | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
country but we have to work with others. It is the long-term approach | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that I think we really need. Another question from Claire Evans. Does the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
yobbery of MPs during a minister 's questions give the best impression | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of the political elite? -- juror in Prime Minister's Questions? This was | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
said by the speaker, that they behave like yobs and upper toffs and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
all sorts of other things and were giving themselves a bad name. No, it | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
doesn't give us a good name. I think Prime Minister's Questions, the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
behaviour there is unprofessional, it is childish, it is at times | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
nasty. We are at work. This is our workplace. You would not tolerate | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that behaviour in a classroom, let alone a boardroom. Are you saying | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
you are whiter than white and you never shout out? OK, twice I have, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
if not shouted, loudly projected about two things I felt strongly | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
about but I did not feel good afterwards. I thought if my | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
constituents had seen me, let alone my mother, my life would not be | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
worth living. So I think Prime Minister's Questions needs to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
change. I think it can change. I think we can change the culture if | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
party leaders and party whips to side that is what they want to see | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
happening. This is a personal view, but I would like to see real changes | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to PMQs. I think if we went back to two sessions a week, and made one | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
about perhaps a specific topic, so you can have much more in-depth | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
questioning, or you made one more like a kind of select committee | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
session, where groups of MPs, small groups in rotation could question | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the Prime Minister, having a meaningful discussion, rather than - | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
this is our window on the world. If, like me, you believe in the power of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
politics and democracy, potentially, to change the world for | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
good, and this is our window on the world, it is not a good | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
advertisement. Charles Kennedy, you have been there longer than anybody | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
on the panel and you know that half a million people in this country | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
watch it and people in the knighted States watch it for the political | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
excitement. Do you think it should change? -- people in the united | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
states. The Americans love it because they have no equivalent. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Imagine if George Bush had had to do Question Time. He would never have | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
got a second term. It has its advantages. There was a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
distinguished parliamentary commentator years ago called Norman | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
shrapnel. He once wrote that too much silence is much more ominous | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
than too much noise in a parliamentary democracy. I am not a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
fan of Prime Minister's Questions. I used to have to ask two questions | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
once a week for the seven years I was party leader, getting shouted at | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
by both sides. Perhaps not both colleagues here, but their | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
equivalent in days gone by. I do not think it is a good advert, but it is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
not also a typical representation of Parliament at work. And I find, for | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
example, as a political consumer, I like when the Prime Minister goes a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
couple of times again in front of a committee for a couple of hours | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
chaired by all of the select committee chairs, and you get | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
meaningful exchange. If you want a bit of entertainment, Prime | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Minister's Questions is your slot. But our job is not to entertain, is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
it? There is an element of entertainment about politics. There | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
is an element of showbiz about politics. Privatise it with Simon | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Cowell then, if you want to be entertaining. Sometimes, if you want | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to make a point that gets through to people, it can be a very lethal | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
weapon in politics. APPLAUSE | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
The lady with the blue scarf. I think the downside is particularly | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
for women. Many women are turned off politics. They do not like the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
adversarial way they are picked on and spoken to. Although you have | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
been very brave about speaking up, I think shouting out, shouting over | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
men and taking part in that is very bad for women. Do you think Margaret | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Thatcher didn't enjoy it? I do not think she epitomises all women in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
politics. I think you are right, if we could get more women into | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
politics the culture would change naturally. Even in the best | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
situation is commie go into a bar with four guys, it is very different | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
than if there are ladies present, or if it is just women. We do not have | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
enough women in politics and we need to encourage women to get more | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
involved. I hope that will happen. The Tories have no commitment to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
getting women into politics. Labour does seem to. You have dropped your | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
all women short lists. They never had any. I would like to see women | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
change the culture naturally by our presence. In the judiciary, only 18% | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of women are QCs. There are not 30% of women in boardrooms. Women are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
underrepresented everywhere in public life. Then we will see the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
change without having to legislate. I was going to pick up the point | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
about all women short lists. I don't think that is the way forward. You | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
man, so you wouldn't. There are very good women in Parliament already and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
they got there on merit and that is the way it should be going forward. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
It doesn't work like that. If you take that argument, here is the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
problem, if you take that argument, you are saying if women succeed, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that means all women can succeed and the fact that there are not more | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
means that women are just not very good at succeeding. Or you can look | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
at society and say maybe there are social issues here, which is why | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
women are not yet represented properly according to the population | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
statistics in those echelons of power. That is what I'm talking | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
about. Women very much have the ability to break through those | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
barriers. It was only because Labour had all women short lists that we | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
actually got the" in the number of women in Parliament. You are all | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
making the assumption that women would not shout. Roger Scruton, do | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
you think women would not shout? There is the assumption, absolutely, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that somehow manners are going to be better. It is not that, Roger. This | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
is what Liz was implying, at least. Of course, on a panel like this you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
are on your best behaviour and you do seem to be a very acceptable | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
voice for your sex. I don't know what you're going to be like when in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that situation you are confronted with somebody who really opposes you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
and hates the things you are saying and thinking. If you have knocked on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
doors and campaigned, you will find people who tell you exactly what | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
they think about you. I have done that, yes. Nevertheless, isn't the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
problem not the yobbery of members of parliament, but the bad judgement | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of the people who vote for them? Controversial! The speaker goes on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
about yobbery, but it is half an hour once a week. As everybody else | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
says, that is not what goes on in the House of Commons the rest of the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
time. It is the only thing that really gets on television. That is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the problem. That is what people see. That is the conundrum. Of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
course, very worthy work goes on in parliament and committees are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
televised, but people watch PMQs. We need to engage the public. In a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
democracy, we need the public to be interested in what is going on in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Parliament. We all believe that it would be great if the public watched | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
our very dignified proceedings in committee, but they are interested | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
in Prime Minister's Questions. Prime Minister's Questions is a unique | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
institution pretty much in the world. Most politicians around the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
world that we talk to are terrified at the prospect of having to face | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
anything like that. It gives a huge amount of accountability to Prime | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Minister of any party, who has no idea what the question is that he is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
going to be asked. I do not agree Liz's idea about having sessions | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
where it is defined, a certain subject. The whole point about PMQs | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
is that the Prime Minister has to demonstrate that he is across the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
whole of his brief. Why couldn't he do it without consulting the leader | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of the Opposition week after week? APPLAUSE | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
And it is not reciprocated? Of course it is. But Cameron when he | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
came in said he was fed up with Punch and Judy politics, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
name-calling, backbiting, point-scoring, finger-pointing. He | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
vowed to change the way we behave. That was December 2005, ten years | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
ago. What has happened? Maybe you should have a word with your leader. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I think we are all captured. We all go into the chamber intending to be | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
extremely well-behaved on a Wednesday. Do you feel forced by | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
peer pressure? That is not good, is it? The mood of the chamber captures | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
this. Even you, Liz, I have seen you getting excited. It was only in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
health questions. Is part of the problem the narrow | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
field that politicians tend to be drawn from? There was something the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
other day, released from the House of Commons, that said 57, around | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
about, just under 10%, of current MPs had family connections who had | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
been MPs in the past. That seems a mass ve skew is inbreeding and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
nepotism the problem? OK. On that happy note let us go on to another | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
question, from Morira Brodie. The OECD reports that our best maths | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
pupils are lagging behind the poorest Chinese students. Should we | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
adopt Chinese-style teaching to raise our standards? This was the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
latest attack on British education and in particular pointing out that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
in maths China did unbelievable well, we did unbelievable badly. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Jeanette Winterson? You ought to try the test online. It's really easy. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
If our children are so bad at maths, as bad as this test would suggest. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
It's a very simple test, yes, we are in trouble. The test that everybody | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
had to do. Look, if I can get 90% shall anybody can. You have done it, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
have you? Yeah, I did. It's a b pro. What do we want our children to be? | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
How do we want our children to learn? We need to have teachers that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
we can respect, as a society, we can teach our children to respect. All | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the systems in the world won't make a difference unless we have teachers | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
who are passionate, interested and excited in the classroom and make | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
children think - I want to learn this, this is for me. It's no good | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
sitting there and learning the drill. You look... I have been to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
China. I don't know if many of you have, you go into some schools, you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
don't feel they are particularly happy places to be. You don't... | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
APPLAUSE I don't want to stop you, the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Education Minister went to China. He said that they have "a can do | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
attitude to maths contrasting with our anti-maths culture. Unless we | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
change our philosophy and get better at maths we will suffer economic | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
decline." We won't. Just wrong? I think it is wrong. I think she is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
right. We want children to be interested in all subjects, not just | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
maths. We can only do that through quality teaching. Only 5% of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
teachers have maths degrees. This is something we need to change. A lot | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of teachers are teaching maths when it's not particularly their main | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
subject, their primary subject. That is something we have to alter, of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
course we do. I want the excitement into the classroom. That is about | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
supporting teachers and supporting schools. It's not about going to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
look at systems and bring them back wholesale and force them here on our | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
children. We are not Chinese. We are very different. A different culture. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
We need to really respect those differences and not try and make our | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
children be something they cannot be. This is being alarmist really, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
you are saying? These comparisons? I think it's alarmist. Yeah. OK. In | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the back row, yes. Having worked in an international language school, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
particularly with Chinese students, having ConVersed with them, they | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
have said that while they value the education, they don't like the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
manner in which it's taught. They have very long days. Very little | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
control over what they learn and which interests they follow. Many of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
them aspire to come here to actually widen their, what they are allowed | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to study. They view our summer schools, where they come here to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
learn English, as a way to have a choice in what they learn and their | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
education, which our education system does allow. Do you think | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
there is a danger of being complacent about this disparity on | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
mathematics, do you think it's an irrelevancy, yourself? Yes, we need | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to raise standards. With he know... But I think it's also we need to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
interest people. It's not necessarily the, you know, the hard | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
line, you will study this, sit down and study this for two hours. We | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
need to interest people in the subject. OK. Rather than just ram it | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
down their throats. Roger Scruton, what did you make of the report? I | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
was not surprised by it. I agree with Jeanette Winterson's basic | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
thought, there are not enough qualified teachers in the field of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
mathematics in our country. That's not only true of schools, it's true | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
of universities too. People do not read Matt mattics. They -- | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
mathematics. They don't go for the hard subjects like that any more. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
It's part of a culture (inaudible (is (. People go to university, many | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people in order to relax for a few years. You know... They are ng up | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
huge debts who is going to relax when they have ?50,000 they owe when | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
they come out. That is not relaxing to come out of university Ando | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
?50,000? Not a great debt when you consider the amount of pleasure that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
it represents. APPLAUSE | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
The fact is - You really think people are running up, they are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
paying ?9,000 a year, plus supporting themselves to doss about | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
and do easy subjects and coming out with ?50,000 worth of debt, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
thinking, that is worth it. I can't afford a house. I have to work until | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
I'm 70, I have no pension, never mind? Not quite as bad as you are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
implying. Many of these students are actually from the wealthy | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
middle-classes who are not running up debts or passing those debts onto | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
their parents. The fact is, when given the choice to... Between | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
reading for a degree in mathematics and reading for a degree in media | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
studies, whatever, they will take the second option. You are a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
philosopher? Is What has that to do with it? He is a philosopher. It's a | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
hard subject. It depends, Roger, doesn't it. Never had a drink and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
never stayed out late. Is the woman at the very back there. Yes. I want | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to say that some of those statistics might mask other degrees that people | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
have, such as engineering physics where you have a very high level of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
maths. The man there. I have a seven-year-old daughter. She comes | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
out of school not well up to speed with mathematics, frankly I think | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the school has failed her. I think I've failed her as a parent as well. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Phillip Hammond. I'm not sure that importing a Chinese system wholesale | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
will be the solution. I would certainly not want to stamp out of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
our children the sort of question creative approach that we value, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
which I think the Chinese system very definitely doesn't value and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
actively discourages. But we should still be hearing an alarm bell | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
ringing about, not just maths, but engineering, sciences. Whether we | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
like it or not, we are aring -- competing with countries like China | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
and emerging nations of Southeast Asia. If we want our economy to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
prosper in the future we want people to have the good jobs, opportunities | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
for work, abilities to feed their families, provide for their | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
families, that we have all been talking about earlier this evening, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
we have to make sure that our - the next generation is equipped with | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
with the skills they need. We are beginning I think to make progress. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
We are seeing more children taking the "hard subjects" in schools. More | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people looking to study the maths, science, engineering subjects at | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
university. I think we have to do it in a British way, which combines the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
discipline of those subjects with the sort of creativity and the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
enquiring approach that makes us what we are. The | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
APPLAUSE You agree? Is you clearly agree with | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
him? May I suggest that if Mr Goef stops moving the goal posts and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
getting Ofsted to change its reachings, teachers could teach! Gsh | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Gove. We do need to be worried about where we are in terms of maths, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
having those basic skills is vital. We do need to have more teachers who | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
are properly trained in that and Labour introduced Teach First | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
getting the best and brightest grat waits involved, this Government | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
continued it. I want to come to the essence of how you really grasp | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
kids' minds and brains and inspire them. The best teachers I've seen | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
don't use a one-size-fits-all, they find out what excits and motivates | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
that child. They understand, if we show how maths fits into a job that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
is involved in design, technology or engineering. If you can bring in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people from those professions to kids from the poorest backgrounds, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
who probably have never met an engineer, to say - if you do maths, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
you can have this kind of an exciting job. I saw a brilliant | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
thing in - doing this in a primary school in my stwis, Parks Primary | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
getting engineers into children who hadn't aspirations. They hadn't seen | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
anyone with a job like that. They suddenly realised, that would be | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
good. That is why it's worth doing maths. It is those children who | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
understood that, child by child. That is the passion we all need to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
inspire. There. Would Liz agree it would be an advantage to let | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
engineers teach without necessarily having to go forward for an extra | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
degree before they can get into the classroom? Do you think - I don't | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
know, sorry, how old you are or whether you have been to college or | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
university? University. Would you think it would be good to go | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
straight into a classroom without any proper follow-up to give you the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
teaching and skills? Do you think you would be able to do that? | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Professionals who have worked in an industry for a long period of time | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
have developed the incredible skills should have the opportunity to get | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
back into the classroom and really share their knowledge with students. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
The next generation. They are the most inspirational people that are | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
around. I think they should be allowed to get back into the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
classroom. Charles Kennedy. Hands up, I hated maths at school. I was | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
hopeless at it. I loved English. I was quite good at that. Would you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
believe, I ended up with a university degree auto 50% English | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
and 50% moral philosophy. Stimulated along the way by the professor of | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Glasgow University those days who is a colleague and well-known to Roger, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Professor Robert Downie who introduced me to this distinguished | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
man on the panel tonightment I do recognise some of the descriptions | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
you give of university life, at least of 50 years ago, slightly | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
different today. What about China and maths? China. Reverting to the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
question, for a moment. Is I think we're right. I mean sitting, as I | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
have been involved at Glasgow University Richter, sitting at the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
university court, St Andrews and Oxford will be the same, the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
internationalisation of education is going full gun, full guns ahead and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
we've got to keep up with it as a country, in terms of getting | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
students in, but also not falling behind. I think on the maths and the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
sciences we've really got to work, cut out to keep pace. We can't do it | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
grafting a different culture on to us. I don't think that will work. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Who replaced you as Richter? It was that chap Snowden. Worthy successor, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
is that? Is The students choose me twice, they have impeccable taste | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
when it comes to choosing a Richter. I want to go back to what the young | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
man at the back mentioned earlier. The need to get people into schools | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
who have expertise in subjects which we are lacking. I think that he was | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
right to say that this requirement that they have a special, extra | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
teaching qualification is keeping those professionals out of the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
schools. Keeping these engineers from coming back into the education | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
system. I was surprised, since you admired the whole Teach First | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
initiative, which your party introduced, you didn't see that as | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
actually the way forward. I do. That is what I said. You want to produce | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
professional qualification. The point of that is that it enables | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
people to enter the school without getting a qualification - We can | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
design something that people who have been in industry, come forward, | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
have three months to know how to face the classroom. Is a couple more | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
points. You sir over there, first of all. I think we shouldn't beat | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
ourselves up so much. You only used to watch the BAFTAs this week to see | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
the world leading technicians that this country are producing | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
transforming the film industry. It doesn't matter how knowledgeable you | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
are in your subject if you don't have the skills to impart that | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
wisdom and teach correctly. It doesn't matter. You have to have the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
teaching skills. We have to stop there. A lot of you are waiting to | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
get in. Our hour is up here much we had better stop. We will be in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Newport in Wales next week. The week after that we will be in Barking in | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
East London. If can come to Newport or Barking the way to get to us is | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
to apply with the address on the website there. Or call us: | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
if you are listening on Radio Five Live the debate goes on in Question | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
Time Extra Time. It's my pleasure to thank our panel very much indeed and | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
all of you who came to take part in the programme in Swindon. Until next | 2:40:05 | 2:40:04 | |
week, from Question Time, good night. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:05 |