15/05/2014 Question Time


15/05/2014

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Tonight, we are in Coventry, and welcome to Question Time.

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Good evening to you at home, welcome to our audience, who will be putting

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questions to the panel who do not know the questions until they hear

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them from the audience. The panel, Conservative employment Minister

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Esther McVey, Labour's shadow energy Secretary, Caroline Flint, the man

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who is spearheading next year's Liberal Democrat general election

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campaign, Paddy Ashdown, the SNP was Mike Humza Yousaf, the Scottish

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Government's external affairs minister, and the Daily Telegraph

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blogger, Tim Stanley. Thank you very much, and the first

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question from RM has shimmy, please. Should Gary Barlow hand back his

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OBE? Should Gary Barlow hand back his OBE, the Take That singer with a

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huge amount of tax avoidance which apparently has to be paid back.

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Should he also hand back his OBE? Humza Yousaf. It is a good question.

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I have to say that Gary Barlow's OBE, frankly I do not care about it.

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He should return the ?20 million that he has avoided paying. I am

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going to get a ribbing for this back home, but I have to confess my

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guilty pleasure. I am quite a Take That farm and I have the albums at

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home. Let me tell you why this is significant. Firstly, we have a UK

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Government that tells us the reason for their austerity cuts, the cuts

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that are hitting the disabled and the poorest in society, they are

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because they don't have a penny in the budget. And they say that while

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there is ?35 billion of tax that has not been collected. How can you have

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no money and yet have ?35 billion of tax not collected by the government

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because HMRC and the government cannot get their act together? The

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second point to make on this issue is what has characterised the UK

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Government over the last four years is how it treats the wealthiest in

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society versus the poorest in society. If you had a dispute with

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HMRC, you would have them sending letters, the government sending

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notices, you would probably have them knocking on your very door. The

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disabled and the poorest are relentlessly pursued to get them

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back into work. In Scotland we had a blind diabetic, Henry Sherlock, who

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was bullied and harassed to get into work. You are moving rather far away

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from tax avoidance. If you are a millionaire and avoiding tax, you

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don't get a slap on the wrist, not even a tickle. That is the hypocrisy

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of it. Esther McVey. Well, the flaw in that logic is the fact that we

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are going after millionaires to get the money to make sure they pay the

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tax, and celebrities, to make sure they pay their tax. More than ever

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before, this government is making sure that people are paying their

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tax and not avoiding tax. And it is only fair and right that each and

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every one of us here pays our tax bill, because that tax bill enables

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us to have the NHS we want, the schools that we want, the transport

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that we want, everything that is right in a good, solid community and

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country. So it is right we go after that. It is important that we go

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after that money. But, the question as to whether he should hand back

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his OBE, no, I don't think he should. That was for so much charity

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work he has done, so much that he has done for the music industry.

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That was separate. If I had the offer of an OBE or ?63 million and I

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was the government, I would be taking back the ?63 million. The

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woman in the striped shirt. Esther McVey says they are going after

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millionaires and celebrities, but are they also going after

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corporations that avoid massive tax bills? Let's stick with Gary Barlow

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for the moment. It is a bit rich for the Conservatives to say they are

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going after tax money. George Osborne did not come into politics

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to take money off rich people. He is doing it because we are telling him

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to. Jimmy Carter got abuse for his tax affairs, and yet yesterday in

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Parliament David Cameron made a joke about Gary Barlow. He should not

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give back his OBE, we should take it back from him. The gentleman is

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quite right, because when it was a comedian in the spotlight, David

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Cameron said it was morally wrong what happened there. But when it has

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come to Gary Barlow, he has taken a different tack. It seems to me that

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probably everyone here and people watching, most of us pay as we earn.

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We pay our tax, and what we have not got its access to accountants and

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others who can find a way for us to hide our money. I am not that

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interested about the OBE, although it might be worth checking out

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people's tax situation before we award one. But what I do think is

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that Gary Barlow and the many others like him should not only pay that

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tax back, but where it is proven they should pay penalties as well.

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Hang on a second. You said something quite serious. They should pay

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penalties? Let's be absolutely clear. As I understand it, tax

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avoidance schemes have two be registered with the HMRC, and then

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they decide whether to accept a scheme. So there is not a criminal

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offence. Why should you pay a penalty? If these things are found

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to be wrong and beyond what HMRC are saying, they should pay penalties as

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well. People are fed up of seeing wealthy people and corporations

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getting out of their tax obligations. The fact is your

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government, David Cameron decided to give a tax cut to people earning

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over ?150,000 a year, even though you wanted to harm people through

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the bedroom tax. A brief answer to that. To point out the factual

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inaccuracies, we have tightened the rules, we are getting more in than

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ever before and we have increased the penalties. Because we all know

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that money should come back to the British public. So factually

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inaccurate, Caroline. I agree with the point you are making about the

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top rate of tax. I think it comes down to the question of an optimal

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rate. If it is set to hide, it does deter rich people away. -- if it is

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set to high. There has to be a decision where the top level is set,

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otherwise rich people move abroad. What do you think about Gary Barlow?

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He should handle all the money back, but he should keep his OBE, on the

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grounds of how much he has done for the UK, in terms of charity work and

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obviously services to the music industry. He has done nothing

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illegal. If I had ?63 million and I could afford to pay accountants to

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help me not pay as much tax as I possibly could, even earning ?40,000

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a year. If I could get someone to do that and save me money in my pocket,

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I would do it, and I am sure 90% of this audience would do it. Paddy

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Ashdown, do you want to pick up on that? I want to pick up on the point

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which Esther McVey made. He received the OBE for other things and I think

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the case for that stands. Should it be removed? No. Should he pay the

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penalty for the steps he has taken to avoid taxation, yes. That is

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where we should concentrate. That is my view. Humza's point, as usual,

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parts company with fact and reality. The government has disastrous cut

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the deficit, it is the poor that have paid the price. No, it is not.

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As a result of the work done by the Liberal Democrats, 25 million people

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have had ?800 less in taxation every year. 2.7 million of the lowest paid

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have been taken out of tax altogether. There is now 2.5 million

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being paid to the families of the poorest pupils in pupil premium to

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help them with education. Pensioners in this country are now getting ?600

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more in their pension annually than they ever got under Labour. Quite

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the contrary. What we have seen is the deficit cut by one third already

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and by half by next year, while the economy is now growing faster than

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ever before, and there is 1.3 million new jobs being created and

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1.5 million apprentices. And tax avoidance as an issue? Tax avoidance

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is a very big issue but it is true to say this government is pursuing

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that with more resources than any previous government has done. Every

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government wants to tackle tax avoidance. Of course it is a big

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issue and anybody who avoids taxes should be pursued. It is not easy

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but the government is devoting resources to that on a larger scale

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than we have seen before. But the central point is that the tough

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action the government has taken has cut the deficit, has begun to repair

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the economy that was trashed by Labour, while at the same time

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getting the economy to grow by 1.7% and probably more than that by the

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time the election comes, and 1.3 million new jobs. That is not a bad

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record, and it is not on the backs of the poor. Someone said to me a

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couple of days ago, should Gary Barlow give back his OBE? And I

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replied, Gary Barlow has an OBE! It is not just for services to the

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music industry, because that would be an irony too far. It is also for

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charity work. He is not a bad man and has done it and is not a bad man

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and has done a comment as amount for this country for which he and was

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rightly rewarded. If the allegations are true, he took advantage of

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something which is perfectly legal. We might not become the ball with it

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and that is understandable, and some people may even be quite angry with

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it, given how much he makes. Some people are applauding. But he has

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done something that is perfectly legal. When a tax system that is

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incredibly compact or avaricious, it encourages people to take advantage

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of such loopholes and to move their money overseas. Loopholes which

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previous governments have encouraged in order to get rich people to stay.

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If the tax system were simpler and taxes were lower, those people would

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be more in plot -- inclined to obey the rules totally, not move anything

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overseas and do the right thing. If we bring taxes down, as this

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government has done for some, you actually find that income goes up.

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So let's lower it, simplify it, and this sort of thing won't happen.

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You can join in the debate on text or Twitter. The red button is the

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one to push if you want to see what people are saying. Elizabeth

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Kimberley, please. Is Michael Gove and ideological obsessed zealot, and

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should he be reined in over his free schools policy?

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These were quotes attributed to Liberal Democrat sources over a row

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over funding free schools at the expense of other school 's,

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extensive quotes about him acting in a way that was nothing short of

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lunacy. Caroline Flint, do you agree with ideological obsessed zealot who

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should be reined in? There are 22,000 state schools of which free

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schools represent less than 1%. I wish there was more discussion about

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the 22,000. But what we have seen in the last week is a situation where

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we have had Michael Gove and Nick Clegg at each other's throats over

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education policy. Nick Clegg has his free school meals policy, and

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apparently funding for that was not worked out and was being trashed by

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the Tories. On the free schools, we now find there is an 800 million

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black hole in which they have had to raid money from primary schools to

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fill the gap. RU in favour of schools? I am in favour of

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academies, and what we have said is that if we win the next general

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election we will have three tests in place. One is that schools should be

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in areas of need. One of the problems with free schools is that

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two thirds of them are secondary schools, which does not help primary

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schools, and they are not in the right places to help the need for

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primary school places. Secondly, we need oversight to deal with some of

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the problems that have emerged. Thirdly, we believe you should have

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qualified teachers in all schools, or people working towards

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qualifications. The problem is that in the last week what we have seen,

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and I can't quite work out whether it is just Liberal Democrats and

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Tories trying to differentiate themselves because there is an

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election next week, or whether it is incompetence. I feel it is a bit of

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both. Paddy Ashdown what do you make of the Liberal Democrats accusing

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Michael Gove? There has been hot-headed language on both sides.

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It's not my style of politics. I don't agree with some of the more

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colourful adjective used by either sides. Not the politicians

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concerned, their supporting staff, they are the ones who can let loose

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a bit and the press will pick it up. I don't think that is the issue,

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frankly. If some officials want to use overheated language, fine, let

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them do so. There is a rift? Certainly not over school meals and

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the principle of free school meals from September you will get that.

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It's a very significant advance. I don't say every school will be in a

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position to deliver from September. 90-95% will. That is a significant

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move. I'm proud it's the Liberal Democrats who led it, with the

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support of the Conservatives, very clearly expressed. On the issue of

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free schools. I'm glad Caroline Flint told us the Labour Party is in

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favour of free schools. There has been doubt about this as they went

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backwards and forwards in the last year. They have come clean. I'm

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delighted about that. I am too. It offers choice. Who delivers is not

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as important as what is the standard of the education that is delivered.

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Provided it's universal access, free-for-all to go to, paid for from

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taxation and subject to proper inspection and quality control.

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Those are the three concerns I have. Now, what worries me about the free

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schools is not the principle, I'm in favour of that. In the way it has

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been enacted. We are now facing a very serious pressure on school

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places. There are some local authorities who will not this year

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be able to provide their statutory duties to parents to provide places

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for their children. At that time, to take ?400 million out of the funds

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for basic needs, and put it into try and fill ?800 million black hole in

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the free school budget, seems to me to be wrong. We have said so. I

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think it's right that we should. The job of the Liberal Democrats in this

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Government is to hold people to account when they move in directions

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that we think are not fair. Now, I agree with free schools, but the way

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that this has been enacted so far, the shift of that money from where

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it is desperately needed to face a crisis, to fill a black hole in an

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area which is not, I think are gives it a bad reputation. It's very well

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you saying that. We are in agreement on that. The truth is, the Liberal

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Democrats signed up to this policy. No. They signed up to the budgets

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being set. Clearly, the budgets weren't thought threw. That is why

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primary school money in the state sector is being raided right now.

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There is not a single thing that Liberal Democrat MP or a member of

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the Government sitting on the benches with the Conservative

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ministers can do about it. That is wrong. What will you do about it?

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You would have signed up to the policy too. It's not the principle

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of the policy? No. You said you were in favour of free schools, are you

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not? Is This is about the budget. No the principle of free schools, are

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you in favour of them or not? When the policy was set up, it was not

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about endangering other funding for primary schools that weren't free

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schools. What has happened, as you quite rightly said, there is an ?800

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million black hole, 50% of under spend has gone to pay for it. 50%

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coming from the basic needs budget from primary schools. The Liberal

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Democrat ministers haven't been doing the job they should be doing.

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Auto who identified this but Liberal Democrat ministers. Tories are

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accused of having taken this money out and left a black hole behind.

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Michael Gove is accused of being ideologically obsessed what do you

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say about the argument from Paddy Ashdown and Caroline Flint? Driven

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and determined to make sure we have excellent education, I would say,

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yes. Caroline, when you know Labour's record is that one in three

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kids left primary school unable to read, write and do maths. What was

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it like in 97? We fell down the tables in maths, English and

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science, it's not accept. What we want to do is make sure all children

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from all backgrounds get the best possible education that we can have.

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That is why he is driven. That is why he is focussed. This is a lad

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who was adopted. Went to a comprehensive school. Worked up to

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Oxford. Of course he is driven and focussed. He wants to make sure that

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everybody has that opportunity to succeed where they can. Free

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schools, well, 80% of them are built now and made in areas of economic

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deprivation. 0% are in areas of absolute need, where parents, staff,

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teachers have come forward and said - we want to build these schools for

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our kids. -- 70%. That is the reality. The money for new places at

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schools have doubled. ?5 billion. Wrong there. We would all agree we

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want to make sure our kids get the best education something they

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weren't getting under Labour. What about the ?400 million that Paddy

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Ashdown referred to, wrongly taken out of one budget - Wasn't wrongly

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taken out of a budget. If people need the schools and people want to

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support those schools, a and parents and teachers are saying this is what

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we need in our area, they are the people who should have the say. We

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need to do that. This is a protected budget. It has doubled for new

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school places by ?5 billion. The main parties aren't actually

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listening to parents. 207,000 people put in a protest to the Government

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to change a policy that was introduced in September last year.

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The main parties aren't listening to adults make -- sorry, decision

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abouts things and not talking to us. Was the policy? School attendance

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policy was completely ignored by the department - the petition for the

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school attendance reversal. You, sir, at the back. I think it's not

:20:43.:20:48.

so much the opportunity for parents to choose the school, it's the

:20:49.:20:51.

consequences of those schools choosing against the other schools.

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The 2,000 are getting more than the 22,000. 200. The 200, even worse!

:20:57.:21:05.

OK. Over here. You, sir. Yes. When you look at this, there is a

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fundamental contradiction. Local authorities are legally bound to

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provide school places and, at the same time, they are banned from

:21:13.:21:16.

opening schools of their own. You end up with schools with Portakabins

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on the car park or office blocks being converted. That will not give

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us good universal education. You, sir, second row from the back.

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Esther said about different numeracy problems, dropping down in the

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tables, that is with Government intervention. Surely the Government

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should butt out and let the teachers teach.

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APPLAUSE The sliding down of the league

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tables took place in the latter years of the Labour Government.

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There has been a mild improve am since Gove took over. If Michael

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Gove is an Ied log, I will be honest, I'm fanatical member of his

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barmy army, I think he's marvellous. If you take the case of free

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schools. If you take the case of free schools. The reason why so much

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money has to be diverted towards them is because they are popular.

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Since the policy started 300 have been set up. Three people are trying

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to get one place. If you get into a free school, that school is twice as

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likely to end up being regarded as outstanding as a normal school is.

:22:37.:22:40.

They are incredibly successful. You in Coventry will get two new free

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schools, I believe, faith schools, one Muslim and one seek, they will

:22:46.:22:51.

take -- Sikh, they will take 50% of people not from those faiths. You

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are fortunate. The statistics show those schools outperform the

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so-called normal schools. The whole principle of Michael Gove's approach

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is to hand power back to teachers and parents, it's not about taking

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it away from them, it's about empowering. The parents set it up.

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You will have to persuade the woman here in the front who has been...

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Happily. Have worked in it for four years. I'm leaving after four years.

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The man in control does not what he is doing at all.

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APPLAUSE He is not interested in the

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profession. Why are so many parents setting them up? Why do you say

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that? I feel like he - he's making decisions and he doesn't know the

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profession, he doesn't understand the stresses and the pressures we

:23:47.:23:50.

are under at all. He hasn't worked in it. I don't understand how he is

:23:51.:23:54.

making decisions based on no experience whatsoever. No wonder

:23:55.:23:59.

they are going wrong? Jeremy Hunt is minister for health, he is not a

:24:00.:24:02.

drchlt you run a ministry, you come into it with ideas and general

:24:03.:24:05.

experience when it comes to administration. Have you seen what

:24:06.:24:10.

he is doing to the health service of England? That's where we are going

:24:11.:24:17.

wrong! Is Scotland is in a different position on this. We will hear from

:24:18.:24:21.

you. The woman in the third row, yes, from the back. Oh, hello! Yes,

:24:22.:24:27.

I mean, I just like to pick up on that point. I think absolutely the

:24:28.:24:31.

problem is that Gove does not listen at all. He doesn't listen to

:24:32.:24:37.

teachers. He's constantly rubbishing teachers and student students'

:24:38.:24:41.

achievements, he doesn't listen to educational experts. He dismiss what

:24:42.:24:46.

educational experts say if they disagree with them, he regards them

:24:47.:24:51.

as raving marxists. I want to pick up on testing. And Pisa testing.

:24:52.:24:58.

Recently in the Guardian there was a letter from a large group of

:24:59.:25:02.

academics, international academics, who were question - it was a letter

:25:03.:25:08.

to the Director of Education for the OECD, saying, what is going on here?

:25:09.:25:18.

Why are these tests dominating education worldwide. Do you want to

:25:19.:25:23.

answer the point she made about - you have said quite a lot. About the

:25:24.:25:27.

Goef point, he doesn't listen. That was your point, wasn't it? I know, I

:25:28.:25:31.

have been out with him on tours that he gets around the country, he meets

:25:32.:25:35.

with people. He meets with kids. He meets with parents. He meets with

:25:36.:25:40.

teachers. Does he act on it All of that is part of a listening examiner

:25:41.:25:47.

countries. You have the best schools and have kids getting the best

:25:48.:25:51.

education it's vital you listen to everybody. I'm sure, you know, he

:25:52.:25:56.

would be disappointed if for you to think that way. I do know that this

:25:57.:26:00.

is something that he is most passionate about and what he came

:26:01.:26:05.

into politics to do. He loves the subject and wants to help people. If

:26:06.:26:10.

he thought you felt that way, maybe he has to do something about maybe

:26:11.:26:16.

how he has come across to you. That isn't the case. The guy really

:26:17.:26:20.

cares. If he wants to talk to me, I would be very pleased to talk to

:26:21.:26:24.

him. APPLAUSE

:26:25.:26:29.

It's PR. I can set up a date between the two of you then! A PR matter for

:26:30.:26:36.

Goef really? Presental improvement. We have stopped the tumbling down

:26:37.:26:43.

the academic tables. We are starting to go up. He has got that right. He

:26:44.:26:48.

is there to change things. People have put them there. Teachers are a

:26:49.:26:54.

unionised special interest. They are resistant to change. That is

:26:55.:27:00.

entirely understandable - How rude! It's changing every four years! When

:27:01.:27:06.

Tim said he was part of the barmy army, I think the barmy party

:27:07.:27:13.

(inaudible) I'm an outside observe server coming from Scotland. In

:27:14.:27:17.

Scotland we don't have free schools we have education controlled by the

:27:18.:27:23.

Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government. Caroline Flint got it

:27:24.:27:26.

correct. These manufactured fights and arguments that they are having

:27:27.:27:29.

between the coalition are because there is a European election of

:27:30.:27:33.

course and a general election in one year's time. Let me give you a

:27:34.:27:37.

Scottish perspective on that. The Scottish perspective is, since the

:27:38.:27:40.

Liberal Democrats leapt into bed with the Conservatives, they lost

:27:41.:27:43.

two-thirds of their seats in the Scottish Parliament. They lost over

:27:44.:27:47.

half their local council election seats, by all projectionses they

:27:48.:27:51.

will lose their single member of the European parliament. My only plea to

:27:52.:27:55.

the audience here, this is an issue issue. My only plea to you, that I

:27:56.:27:58.

have seen from the outside, what they have done with university

:27:59.:28:03.

education, charging students up to ?9,000, in Scotland we decided not

:28:04.:28:07.

to do. That my plea to you is - do not allow them to create a two-tier

:28:08.:28:12.

system of education. Make sure you protect your children's education.

:28:13.:28:15.

It's a right and not a privilege. E.. It

:28:16.:28:26.

APPLAUSE -- It's good to say about funding

:28:27.:28:30.

for schools. Catholic schools have to fund 10% themselves. They are

:28:31.:28:34.

struggling to do it. It's affecting the education of children. What will

:28:35.:28:38.

be done about this? All right. I will take a point from you. Will

:28:39.:28:45.

Goef listen to parents? He hasn't listened to us. He had people in the

:28:46.:28:50.

country screaming at him to change a policy. You saying the free school

:28:51.:28:55.

policy is not approved of by parents. Why do so many parents

:28:56.:28:59.

apparently queue up to go to free schools. He listened to one group of

:29:00.:29:04.

people and listened to you and agreed with the other group of

:29:05.:29:08.

people. That is how decision works. What parents are concerned about,

:29:09.:29:11.

I'm agreed with Esther on this, it is right that everyone has an access

:29:12.:29:15.

to a decent state school education. That is what parents want. Let us

:29:16.:29:21.

have some of the discussion about the 22,000 schools rather than the

:29:22.:29:25.

obsession around 200 schools that are called "free."

:29:26.:29:32.

I just want to correct Humza again. If the university student loans

:29:33.:29:44.

system is so bad, how can it be, and by the way the student fees system

:29:45.:29:48.

introduced was more generous than that under Labour, but how can it be

:29:49.:29:52.

that the number of students going to university has not come down as

:29:53.:29:55.

everybody predicted, but it has gone up? And how can it be that the

:29:56.:30:02.

number of students from the poorest families are much higher as a

:30:03.:30:05.

proportion in England than in Scotland? The system you are

:30:06.:30:11.

claiming does not help the poor is actually ensuring that a higher

:30:12.:30:15.

proportion of poor students are going to English universities than

:30:16.:30:20.

hard today going to Scottish ones. Why did Nick Clegg apologise?

:30:21.:30:24.

Because he was right? That would be a first. Because the promise made

:30:25.:30:29.

before the election was a promise we should not have made. It is not an

:30:30.:30:33.

apology for the policy but for making a promise that was

:30:34.:30:36.

inappropriate in the economic circumstances at the time. That

:30:37.:30:44.

apology is not accepted. Let's go on. Can any possible good arise from

:30:45.:30:50.

the Prime Minister's visit to Scotland today? In the light of the

:30:51.:30:53.

referendum that is coming in the Scotland, can it possibly do any

:30:54.:31:00.

good? Humza, perhaps you should start. He has obviously come to

:31:01.:31:04.

Scotland because of the referendum. My only regret is that he is only up

:31:05.:31:09.

for two days. I wish it was five. I would have paid for his

:31:10.:31:14.

accommodation, because every time David Cameron or a Tory grandee

:31:15.:31:17.

comes to Scotland to say, the earth is going to swallow you up if you

:31:18.:31:21.

become independent and thunderbolts will come from the sky, and you will

:31:22.:31:24.

not get Doctor Who on the television, all of these scare

:31:25.:31:27.

stories that they have come out with, we have seen time and time

:31:28.:31:31.

again over the last six months especially that the campaign to

:31:32.:31:34.

support independence, the yes campaign has increased, and support

:31:35.:31:38.

for the no campaign has begun to diminish. It worries me greatly when

:31:39.:31:43.

I see the polls of the UK general election, because I do not want

:31:44.:31:48.

another Tory government. That is why I support independence, because I

:31:49.:31:53.

want to see in Scotland people get the government that they elect. How

:31:54.:31:57.

absurd is it that David Cameron has come to Scotland? He has one MP in

:31:58.:32:03.

his party, one MP in the entire country. As the old joke goes, if it

:32:04.:32:08.

wasn't so tragic it would be funny that there are more giant pandas in

:32:09.:32:12.

Edinburgh zoo than there are Tory MPs in the entire country. Let me

:32:13.:32:21.

just finished this point... What was the percentage of Scots who voted

:32:22.:32:25.

Conservative at the last general election? I don't know the exact

:32:26.:32:30.

number. You are saying the Prime Minister has no right to go to

:32:31.:32:34.

Scotland. I didn't say that. I actually said I would liken to come

:32:35.:32:40.

to Scotland for even longer. I am quite aware that I am speaking to

:32:41.:32:44.

running dish audience about Scottish independence. Let me put it like

:32:45.:32:49.

this to you. -- to an English audience. Whether you are here, or

:32:50.:32:54.

in Bradford or Newcastle, let's face it, like Vince Cable said, London is

:32:55.:32:59.

a giant sucking machine draining the rest of the UK. The politics of the

:33:00.:33:05.

Westminster establishment is entirely prioritised by the needs of

:33:06.:33:08.

zone one and zone two in London and the south-east of England. If you

:33:09.:33:13.

have the chance to get rid of a Westminster elite that is scandal

:33:14.:33:18.

ridden, that is London obsessed and London centric, I bet you would take

:33:19.:33:28.

it in a heartbeat, too. I think it is too long that the English have

:33:29.:33:31.

been locked out of the debate about the union and I am pleased we are

:33:32.:33:36.

going to finally be a part of it. I think the Better Together campaign

:33:37.:33:39.

made a huge mistake, the people saying let's stay together. They

:33:40.:33:44.

decided to focus on economics, and that turned into essentially

:33:45.:33:47.

economic blackmail. They said, if you become independent, you will

:33:48.:33:53.

starve. That, rightly, offended the Scots and I think it is behind the

:33:54.:33:55.

increase in support for independence. We now have to return

:33:56.:34:00.

to what the debate should be about, which is about the emotional,

:34:01.:34:03.

cultural, political reasons for the union. As an English person who is

:34:04.:34:09.

proudly pro-union, I would like to take this opportunity to say what

:34:10.:34:14.

they are. This is the most successful experiment in

:34:15.:34:18.

multiculturalism in history. For 300 years it has made us wealthier,

:34:19.:34:21.

improved our culture, made us better, more tolerant people. There

:34:22.:34:26.

are people across the globe who look at us and marvel at the wonders and

:34:27.:34:31.

riches that we have. And it is so amazing to think of ourselves as a

:34:32.:34:36.

family, Northern Irishman Welsh, English, Scottish. Very different,

:34:37.:34:41.

bickering, as families always do, but United through walls,

:34:42.:34:45.

depressions, recessions, and coming out of its strong because we are

:34:46.:34:49.

brothers and sisters. Please, Scotland, I say this as an English

:34:50.:34:53.

man so passionately, please, don't leave us, we need you. Well said. So

:34:54.:35:05.

it was a good idea for the Prime Minister to go to Scotland? I think

:35:06.:35:10.

so because he is Prime Minister of the whole United Kingdom. As a

:35:11.:35:16.

Scotsman living in England I see it from both sides of the fence. But

:35:17.:35:22.

recently, I think yesterday, George Osborne was quoted as saying that

:35:23.:35:25.

Alex Salmond was a bully, bullying people into a yes vote. Is George

:35:26.:35:30.

Osborne not as much of a bully, bullying the Scots by saying they

:35:31.:35:35.

won't have a currency union if Scotland vote yes to independence?

:35:36.:35:43.

300 years together, it is like a long relationship, and sometimes

:35:44.:35:46.

when you have been in a relationship with somebody you think, how are we

:35:47.:35:51.

going to stay together? Sometimes you've -- you give warnings,

:35:52.:35:54.

cautious words, whisper sweet nothings to make sure you stay

:35:55.:35:59.

together. So you will be saying things like, can you afford this,

:36:00.:36:03.

will you be able to do this? This is the downside should you leave us. I

:36:04.:36:08.

don't think that is bullying. I think it is somebody who cares about

:36:09.:36:11.

you saying, there are all these things to think about. Because it

:36:12.:36:21.

might be... Hang on a second. You might be making your name on the

:36:22.:36:25.

back of this, and the SNP might be making their name on the back of

:36:26.:36:30.

this, but actually this is a huge history of people who have been

:36:31.:36:33.

together for a long time, and I do believe we are Better Together.

:36:34.:36:38.

Yes, our cultures are different and we have differences between us, but

:36:39.:36:41.

that is what makes us great together. So I would stay together,

:36:42.:36:48.

but I would also heed the warnings. With a name like Esther McVey, I

:36:49.:36:52.

have relatives up there, and I would heed the warnings and listen to how

:36:53.:36:56.

it could work together. But we should listen, too, in England. We

:36:57.:37:00.

need to know why we are rubbing up against each other, why it is not

:37:01.:37:04.

working so well at the moment. There is time for us to listen and get it

:37:05.:37:08.

right as well. But let's get it sorted. Sometimes it is just better

:37:09.:37:17.

to divorce. There is no point continuing in a relationship that's

:37:18.:37:21.

not working. That's get divorced and move on.

:37:22.:37:25.

I would like to know why people in England and Wales are not getting a

:37:26.:37:30.

say on this. It is just for Scotland to vote, but the whole of the UK

:37:31.:37:34.

will be completely changed. So why doesn't everyone else get a say?

:37:35.:37:39.

Because that is the way these things are done, I'm afraid. Tim, it pains

:37:40.:37:47.

me greatly to have two agree with a columnist of the Daily Telegraph.

:37:48.:37:55.

Imagine how I feel right now. You said all the things I would wish to

:37:56.:38:00.

have said. If part of the nation wishes to separate, that part takes

:38:01.:38:04.

the decision, not the nation as a whole. That is the historical

:38:05.:38:07.

principle. You may regret that we don't have a voice in this. Does

:38:08.:38:13.

that apply to the Ukraine as well? It would if there had been a proper

:38:14.:38:17.

referendum but there never has been. But we will get on to that later.

:38:18.:38:22.

The gentleman at the back, you said if it isn't working we should get a

:38:23.:38:26.

divorce. There is no union I camping cover in history that has worked

:38:27.:38:30.

better than this, for 200, 300, 400 years. Let's start off properly. The

:38:31.:38:38.

Scots are a great nation in their own right. They have a fantastic

:38:39.:38:43.

great, individual national history. They have a national education

:38:44.:38:47.

system, a national system of law, different and in some ways better

:38:48.:38:51.

than ours, so they are entitled to have this debate. A should be

:38:52.:38:54.

treated with respect in having this debate and they are entitled to make

:38:55.:38:59.

this choice. Those who argue that Scotland could not survive by itself

:39:00.:39:04.

are talking nonsense, in my view. The argument is not that Scotland

:39:05.:39:07.

can't do this but that we are Better Together. And what worries me most,

:39:08.:39:13.

Humza, listening to you, this is a rhetoric that might suit Scotland if

:39:14.:39:17.

you are debating there, but I cannot listen to your language without

:39:18.:39:21.

being worried about the infusion of hate that is in there, hate of

:39:22.:39:25.

London, hate of this filthy elite, hate of the South, it is the

:39:26.:39:29.

language of division. And the reality of it is that we have made a

:39:30.:39:35.

fantastic success, in 400 years, of Great Britain, because we have put

:39:36.:39:38.

aside our divisions and worked together. I am desperate for

:39:39.:39:43.

Scotland to say no to independence because we will be stronger as a

:39:44.:39:46.

country, but I passionately believe that they will be too. All of those

:39:47.:39:51.

great things that are Scottish and make such a contribution to us, they

:39:52.:39:56.

would be lost to us. This would be a disaster. But whatever happens,

:39:57.:40:00.

Humza, let's have a more civilised debate than the kind of argument you

:40:01.:40:04.

are using, rather than this argument of hate and division.

:40:05.:40:04.

APPLAUSE I have the greatest respect for Lord

:40:05.:40:21.

Ashdown and what he says. But it is not hatred and division.

:40:22.:40:27.

When you talked about the greatest economic union, I am just telling

:40:28.:40:30.

you the stark reality on the ground. We have 85,000 people, the

:40:31.:40:35.

majority of them in a disabled household, who have been hit by the

:40:36.:40:40.

bedroom tax. It is not Better Together for them. Immigrants who

:40:41.:40:44.

have been told to go home by government-sponsored posters, it is

:40:45.:40:48.

not Better Together for them, Lord Ashdown. Pensioners who have been

:40:49.:40:51.

saving for 50 years seeing their pensions decimated, it is not Better

:40:52.:40:56.

Together for them. My point is that all of those decisions are made by a

:40:57.:41:00.

coalition government that we did not elect. The problem with David

:41:01.:41:03.

Cameron coming to Scotland is that he has the audacity to say he is

:41:04.:41:08.

going to debate Nigel Farage, someone who does not have a single

:41:09.:41:14.

MP in Scotland. UKIP have never even saved the deposit. But he won't

:41:15.:41:17.

debate with Alex Salmond, the democratically elected head of the

:41:18.:41:21.

Scottish Government. That is audacious and absolutely

:41:22.:41:30.

unacceptable. I think the Prime minister is entitled to visit

:41:31.:41:33.

Scotland, because he is the Prime Minister. And I have to say, what

:41:34.:41:38.

Humza and Alex Salmond would love is to make this debate all about Alex

:41:39.:41:43.

Salmond versus David Cameron, because that is what they want to

:41:44.:41:48.

do. They want to have it as a debate about Scotland versus Westminster.

:41:49.:41:54.

But that isn't the issue here. The vote in September is for Scots to

:41:55.:41:59.

decide if they want to separate and leave the United Kingdom. That is

:42:00.:42:05.

the question on the table. As Paddy and Tim have said, I think we have,

:42:06.:42:12.

as a union, been very successful. And I am very proud that it was a

:42:13.:42:16.

Labour government that sort through the devolution for Scotland and

:42:17.:42:22.

Wales. I think we can be relaxed and confident about the choices that

:42:23.:42:25.

Scotland might make that might be different to here in England, or

:42:26.:42:29.

different to Wales or Northern Ireland for that matter. But at the

:42:30.:42:37.

same time not lose sight of the cultural and emotional links, but

:42:38.:42:40.

also the economic links that make us Better Together. And I don't think

:42:41.:42:47.

we should allow the SNP to let this debate be one about Alex Salmond

:42:48.:42:51.

versus David Cameron. That is not the issue. What they cannot have is

:42:52.:42:55.

a situation where they want to promote Scotland leaving the UK and

:42:56.:43:00.

think they will not have any consequences, because it will be

:43:01.:43:03.

very different. I hope that when Scots come to think about this and

:43:04.:43:06.

all the issues, I really hope that they stay with us. There are a

:43:07.:43:15.

number of people with hands up. I just want to say that I am pro

:43:16.:43:20.

union, but I agree with Humza that this issue is so important that the

:43:21.:43:25.

leaders should debate with Alex Salmond, all of the party leaders

:43:26.:43:29.

should get together and debate. It is crucial for the future of my

:43:30.:43:34.

daughter and the UK that she is going to grow up in.

:43:35.:43:44.

I agree with Paddy and Tim. The trouble is, the Better Together

:43:45.:43:48.

campaign is symptomatic of what is wrong with British politics, a

:43:49.:43:51.

constant focus on negative campaigning. Labour's election

:43:52.:43:57.

broadcast recently was a good example of that. There is a constant

:43:58.:44:01.

moaning and groaning about what other people are doing, instead of

:44:02.:44:06.

promoting the positive, which is what the Better Together campaign

:44:07.:44:13.

should do. A question for Humza. If you believe

:44:14.:44:17.

so passionately that Scotland should be independent white, if you get

:44:18.:44:21.

independence, do you want to join the European Union? -- why? Sure.

:44:22.:44:32.

Then the 28 countries of the European union wouldn't be

:44:33.:44:34.

independence. They are. The difference is, they had the choice.

:44:35.:44:38.

With the European Union that is a fantastic point we don't get our

:44:39.:44:42.

choice. Our voice heard at the top table in the European Union. I agree

:44:43.:44:47.

entirely with this lady. This is a debate between negative and

:44:48.:44:52.

positive. Look, Scotland is a wealthy country. We could be the

:44:53.:44:55.

14th wealthiest country in the world. Create a fairer and more

:44:56.:45:00.

social just welfare system. We Coe get rid of nuclear Trident missiles

:45:01.:45:06.

on our soil and invest that money in public services. It's a debate about

:45:07.:45:11.

unlocking Scotland's future. We will not separate and dwoors, take a

:45:12.:45:18.

chainsaw down to Carlisle and drift off into the North Sea. It's not

:45:19.:45:24.

about Celts and anthems. It's about creating the system to help the

:45:25.:45:27.

poorest, not at the expense of the poorest. I believe the Better

:45:28.:45:31.

Together campaign have been too negative. That is why they are

:45:32.:45:35.

haemorrhaging support. Not true. It's not Better Together for us who

:45:36.:45:39.

have to pay for prescriptions and have university fees that Scotland

:45:40.:45:45.

don't? You don't pay. You think Scotland should go its own way? If

:45:46.:45:50.

they do. Hopefully, it will be for the better for the rest of us. For

:45:51.:45:56.

England. The man there. I find it ironic that Tim and Paddy were

:45:57.:46:01.

talking about the greaty multi Kewellure experience. Tim talked

:46:02.:46:05.

about the need for greater immigration controls in his column.

:46:06.:46:10.

He is talking about the multi-cultural experience with

:46:11.:46:13.

Scottish people. Are we only to let people in if they come from the

:46:14.:46:17.

right country? APPLAUSE

:46:18.:46:20.

First of all, thank you for reading. I really do appreciate that!

:46:21.:46:25.

Although, obviously, I wish you hadn't now! No, what I'm talking

:46:26.:46:30.

about is the need for control when it comes from immigration from the

:46:31.:46:35.

European union. That is a specific debate. What we are discussing here

:46:36.:46:43.

is policy. The there is is a criticism of Tory party policy to

:46:44.:46:49.

vote for Labour not leaving the union. There are plenty of people

:46:50.:46:53.

who don't like the bedroom tax, they don't seek independence, they are

:46:54.:46:57.

seeking to change the policy. If you don't like the policy change it is a

:46:58.:47:01.

a country, let's not split off because we disagree with something

:47:02.:47:06.

London - The man there. I'm not one of David Cameron's favourites, or he

:47:07.:47:10.

is not one of my favourites! He is the UK Prime Minister, he can go

:47:11.:47:14.

where he likes. What I'm pretty sure, if Aberdeen and its oil

:47:15.:47:19.

industry was south of the border we wouldn't be having this discussion

:47:20.:47:23.

now. Tim, whenever you are on, can we all have some? O OK. Another

:47:24.:47:34.

question. Emily McFadden. The International Criminal Court has

:47:35.:47:37.

announced preliminary investigations into allegations of the UK's

:47:38.:47:42.

systematic abuse of Iraqis. To what extent should politicians be held

:47:43.:47:45.

accountable for the actions of our soldiers? The first part of this,

:47:46.:47:52.

the ICC announcing preliminary investigations is well-known. The

:47:53.:47:55.

question is, to what extent should politicians be held accountable for

:47:56.:48:00.

the actions of our soldiers. Paddy Ashdown? They should be. If

:48:01.:48:04.

politicians give the orders which soldiers then carry out, then they

:48:05.:48:08.

absolutely should be. The let me take the case of the ICC, if I can,

:48:09.:48:13.

then see if I can illustrate it with a small story. The I krvp, it's a

:48:14.:48:18.

prim examination, not an investigation. Secondly, there are

:48:19.:48:28.

robust systems in Britain for investigating it. It is

:48:29.:48:32.

investigating 43 cases of individual soldiers who acted beyond the law.

:48:33.:48:35.

The law set by politicians, of course. That is out of about

:48:36.:48:41.

140,000. The ICC is claiming to seek to investigate something which I

:48:42.:48:45.

think, first of all, the British Government rejects happened.

:48:46.:48:49.

Secondly, it ma it the case it is already investigating these. We are

:48:50.:48:53.

signatories to the ICC. We should observe and respect the ICC in its

:48:54.:48:58.

decisions. It's in our interests to do so. Not only legally, but also in

:48:59.:49:02.

terms of the interest of our country. Let me give you a story, if

:49:03.:49:08.

I can, briefly. In 1996 I was in the village in Kosovo when we were

:49:09.:49:14.

bombarded by the main battle units of the Serb army, tanks and heavy

:49:15.:49:18.

artillery. I was with Kosovo Albanians in the villages there, it

:49:19.:49:23.

was extremely unpleasant. On the following day I went to see

:49:24.:49:30.

Milosevic. I took the Geneva Convention. I said, what I witnessed

:49:31.:49:35.

yesterday was a clear breach where it touches on the rights of

:49:36.:49:39.

treatment of innocent civilians by an order force you could be brought

:49:40.:49:42.

to the Hague. The next time I saw him was when I gave evidence in the

:49:43.:49:46.

Hague for the Milosevic's trial for that day's work I witnessed. The

:49:47.:49:51.

fact that you have a Lou law that can bring a politician to justice

:49:52.:49:55.

for a breach of international law and it's oldest version, the gee

:49:56.:50:03.

Nina convention make it is a safer world -- Geneva. That same day

:50:04.:50:09.

before I saw Milosevic I spoke to the Serb artillery commanders who

:50:10.:50:13.

bombarded us in those villages the day before. What I discovered was

:50:14.:50:18.

that those artillery commanders were more frightened of being indicted by

:50:19.:50:24.

The Hague tribunal than they were of being bombed by NATO. I said to Tony

:50:25.:50:28.

Blair, have them indicted now. If you have a court like this. If you

:50:29.:50:33.

have a system of international law like this. It delivers justice to

:50:34.:50:37.

those who breached after the event. It controls the actions of tyrants

:50:38.:50:43.

and torturers and murders during the course of the war. That is why it it

:50:44.:50:48.

so important. Whatever our position in Britain we should adhere to the

:50:49.:50:55.

prescriptions of our court. It's in our legal duty to do so and in our

:50:56.:50:57.

interests to do so well. You, sir. I'd like to say I think it

:50:58.:51:10.

is rich and very sick that politicians continually avoid these

:51:11.:51:14.

sort of trials and blames when, you know, we have Tony Blair that

:51:15.:51:18.

started sending our young men to war. Young men that, by the way, are

:51:19.:51:23.

trained to be aggressive. Are trained to view the enemy in a

:51:24.:51:28.

certain way. Young men who volunteer their own lives for the good of our

:51:29.:51:33.

country. When these people make mistakes, as everyone does in all

:51:34.:51:39.

walks of life, these men are singled out and ridiculed in the media and

:51:40.:51:44.

quite often sent to military prison. They lose their pension, benefits

:51:45.:51:50.

and everything else. Meanwhile, the politicians just get away scot free.

:51:51.:51:55.

We seem to be chasing wars in countries and this debate hasn't

:51:56.:51:59.

been had before. There are is all sorts of oil and everything else.

:52:00.:52:03.

When hundreds of schoolgirls in Nigeria get kidnapped, where are our

:52:04.:52:07.

forces there? Surely we can go in and get them back. You mentioned

:52:08.:52:11.

Tony Blair. Caroline Flint you are a great supporter of Tony Blair's.

:52:12.:52:14.

What is your view of what he has just said? My view on the

:52:15.:52:19.

International Criminal Court is that we absolutely are right to be

:52:20.:52:25.

signatories to it. And, part of the task of the International Criminal

:52:26.:52:28.

Court is where there is evidence of systematic abuse, and where

:52:29.:52:32.

countries that are run by dictatorships do not have a legal

:52:33.:52:35.

system to bring individuals, whether they are politicians, army

:52:36.:52:39.

commanders, or whoever, to account, that is where the international

:52:40.:52:44.

court can step in. I think that is absolutely right. Clearly, if we had

:52:45.:52:50.

a situation in this country where we weren't following up on allegations

:52:51.:52:58.

of misuse, torture, rape, or whatever, then, quite rightly, the

:52:59.:53:04.

ICC would step in and take action. As Paddy said, we do have a system

:53:05.:53:09.

of legal proceedings in this country, thank goodness, that will

:53:10.:53:12.

follow these issues up and follow them through. That is absolutely

:53:13.:53:16.

right. Is it necessary for the I krvp C to carry out any kind of

:53:17.:53:21.

investigation? Is it because some people say rather shaming to find

:53:22.:53:28.

Britains name among a list of nation - Because - because Let Caroline

:53:29.:53:35.

answer the point. Because, it's perfectly right that if individuals,

:53:36.:53:39.

a group of lawyers, or whoever, decide that they want to approach

:53:40.:53:44.

the ICC, and ask them to look at a case, then that is quite right that

:53:45.:53:48.

should be done. As Paddy said, that is exactly what is happening. An

:53:49.:53:52.

investigation hasn't started. They are looking into the complaint that

:53:53.:53:56.

has been made. It may be that actually it won't get any further

:53:57.:54:00.

than this. Because we do have proceedings in this country that can

:54:01.:54:04.

hold politicians and others to accounts. There are cases under way

:54:05.:54:08.

at the moment. We need to be clear about this. I respect and will stand

:54:09.:54:12.

up for the right for people to approach this court, just in the

:54:13.:54:17.

same way as I would stand up for the right of people to approach the

:54:18.:54:21.

European Court on human rights. That does not mean we should feel ashamed

:54:22.:54:25.

at this stage. We should be proud of the fact that we have a legal system

:54:26.:54:28.

that can bring people to task in this country. , sir, second row from

:54:29.:54:32.

the back. We are quick enough to put our soldiers in the courts, not

:54:33.:54:36.

quick enough to put our politicians in the courts in the same way.

:54:37.:54:49.

APPLAUSE We are still waiting for the

:54:50.:54:52.

Chilcott report some many, many years after Afghanistan and Iraq.

:54:53.:54:56.

The one on the Falklands was completed in six months. Most of the

:54:57.:55:00.

information that we believe is still being held back by Tony Blair and

:55:01.:55:04.

Bush. It has been suggested that certain politicians, who shall not

:55:05.:55:08.

be named, have not helped with that inquiry and have indeed helped to

:55:09.:55:12.

delay it. Why can't they be named? I don't want to get in trouble! On the

:55:13.:55:19.

philosophical point about who takes the most blame, soldiers or

:55:20.:55:24.

politicians. I was disgusted by those pictures. Those soldiers

:55:25.:55:29.

should face disciplinary action for what happened. Those two men were

:55:30.:55:33.

under-fire. They had faced a terrible attack which is the

:55:34.:55:36.

explanation that has been given for why they did what they did. It is no

:55:37.:55:41.

excuse. They should still face discipline. Politicians created the

:55:42.:55:45.

context. The context is the Iraq war. Since that war began 435

:55:46.:55:50.

British service personnel have given their life. For what? For the

:55:51.:55:54.

creation of a constitution that cannot guarantee the security of

:55:55.:55:57.

women and their rights. For ople yum production which has reached the

:55:58.:56:01.

highest it has ever been. And now increasingly for negotiations with

:56:02.:56:04.

the Taliban, the very people we started the war in order to fight. I

:56:05.:56:07.

think it's sad that politicians can make such terrible decisions, which

:56:08.:56:12.

cost lives, and never ultimately face responsibility for it in the

:56:13.:56:16.

court of public opinion. OK. Thank you.

:56:17.:56:22.

APPLAUSE We have a a minute left of this

:56:23.:56:28.

programme. I won't take long. I agree with what the gentleman at the

:56:29.:56:32.

front has been saying, that Tony Blair in particular, the legal war

:56:33.:56:38.

in Iraq has managed to get away with it scot free. The problem in this

:56:39.:56:42.

country now, what we have done, a lot of good work very done

:56:43.:56:45.

internationally, has been undermined by the fact that war has become the

:56:46.:56:49.

first resort as opposed to the last resort. That is just completely the

:56:50.:56:54.

wrong way round. In recent years, you know, we have been in conflicts

:56:55.:56:58.

we shouldn't have been in. You can only take half the time. If you want

:56:59.:57:03.

the ICC not to indict you, don't go into conflicts we don't have to be

:57:04.:57:11.

in. Esther Mcvey. I think it was admiral Lord West who said this, I

:57:12.:57:16.

agree. If anybody was can captured around the world the soldiers you

:57:17.:57:19.

hoped would have captured would be the British soldiers, they are

:57:20.:57:23.

fairer than anybody else. Better than anybody else. I say they go to

:57:24.:57:28.

the highest standards in the world. So...

:57:29.:57:30.

APPLAUSE If anybody has done anything wrong,

:57:31.:57:34.

it is right for all of us to find that out and get it sorted out. It

:57:35.:57:38.

is not systematic. It does not happen all the time. It will be a

:57:39.:57:42.

rare exception because we do have the best people in our army. Here,

:57:43.:57:47.

here. APPLAUSE

:57:48.:57:50.

Thank you very much. The time is up for this edition of Question Time.

:57:51.:57:53.

Next Thursday is election night. We have the local and the European

:57:54.:57:57.

elections. Therefore, Question Time will come from the village of

:57:58.:58:08.

Radlett near the BBC's Elstree Studios in Hertfordshire. To that

:58:09.:58:15.

programme, Chris Grayling comes, Jeremy Brown and the television

:58:16.:58:20.

presenter Kirstie Allsopp. The week after that we will be in a

:58:21.:58:25.

spectacular place the newly restored Terminal 2 at Heathrow Airport. You

:58:26.:58:33.

don't have to take a flight as well. Nobody - there won't be people

:58:34.:58:37.

queueing in the background. We are at Terminal 2, a fabulous site. If

:58:38.:58:43.

you like to come to Elstree or Heathrow you can apply on our

:58:44.:58:47.

website. Address is on the screen: You can call us:

:58:48.:58:54.

if you are listening on Five Live the debate goes on on Question Time

:58:55.:59:02.

Extratime, not here, however. My thanks to my panel and all of you

:59:03.:59:06.

who came here to Coventry to take part. Until next Thursday, from

:59:07.:59:10.

Question Time, good night. Ladies and gentlemen...

:59:11.:59:35.

It's an honour to be here. Let's take a look...

:59:36.:59:37.

..at the nominations. We're here to celebrate

:59:38.:59:39.

a great 12 months for television. The BAFTA...

:59:40.:59:42.

..is awarded to...

:59:43.:59:45.

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