Browse content similar to 15/05/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, we are in Coventry, and welcome to Question Time. | :00:00. | :00:19. | |
Good evening to you at home, welcome to our audience, who will be putting | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
questions to the panel who do not know the questions until they hear | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
them from the audience. The panel, Conservative employment Minister | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
Esther McVey, Labour's shadow energy Secretary, Caroline Flint, the man | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
who is spearheading next year's Liberal Democrat general election | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
campaign, Paddy Ashdown, the SNP was Mike Humza Yousaf, the Scottish | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
Government's external affairs minister, and the Daily Telegraph | :00:46. | :00:46. | |
blogger, Tim Stanley. Thank you very much, and the first | :00:47. | :01:05. | |
question from RM has shimmy, please. Should Gary Barlow hand back his | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
OBE? Should Gary Barlow hand back his OBE, the Take That singer with a | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
huge amount of tax avoidance which apparently has to be paid back. | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
Should he also hand back his OBE? Humza Yousaf. It is a good question. | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
I have to say that Gary Barlow's OBE, frankly I do not care about it. | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
He should return the ?20 million that he has avoided paying. I am | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
going to get a ribbing for this back home, but I have to confess my | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
guilty pleasure. I am quite a Take That farm and I have the albums at | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
home. Let me tell you why this is significant. Firstly, we have a UK | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
Government that tells us the reason for their austerity cuts, the cuts | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
that are hitting the disabled and the poorest in society, they are | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
because they don't have a penny in the budget. And they say that while | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
there is ?35 billion of tax that has not been collected. How can you have | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
no money and yet have ?35 billion of tax not collected by the government | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
because HMRC and the government cannot get their act together? The | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
second point to make on this issue is what has characterised the UK | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
Government over the last four years is how it treats the wealthiest in | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
society versus the poorest in society. If you had a dispute with | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
HMRC, you would have them sending letters, the government sending | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
notices, you would probably have them knocking on your very door. The | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
disabled and the poorest are relentlessly pursued to get them | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
back into work. In Scotland we had a blind diabetic, Henry Sherlock, who | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
was bullied and harassed to get into work. You are moving rather far away | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
from tax avoidance. If you are a millionaire and avoiding tax, you | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
don't get a slap on the wrist, not even a tickle. That is the hypocrisy | :03:09. | :03:18. | |
of it. Esther McVey. Well, the flaw in that logic is the fact that we | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
are going after millionaires to get the money to make sure they pay the | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
tax, and celebrities, to make sure they pay their tax. More than ever | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
before, this government is making sure that people are paying their | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
tax and not avoiding tax. And it is only fair and right that each and | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
every one of us here pays our tax bill, because that tax bill enables | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
us to have the NHS we want, the schools that we want, the transport | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
that we want, everything that is right in a good, solid community and | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
country. So it is right we go after that. It is important that we go | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
after that money. But, the question as to whether he should hand back | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
his OBE, no, I don't think he should. That was for so much charity | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
work he has done, so much that he has done for the music industry. | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
That was separate. If I had the offer of an OBE or ?63 million and I | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
was the government, I would be taking back the ?63 million. The | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
woman in the striped shirt. Esther McVey says they are going after | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
millionaires and celebrities, but are they also going after | :04:32. | :04:33. | |
corporations that avoid massive tax bills? Let's stick with Gary Barlow | :04:34. | :04:43. | |
for the moment. It is a bit rich for the Conservatives to say they are | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
going after tax money. George Osborne did not come into politics | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
to take money off rich people. He is doing it because we are telling him | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
to. Jimmy Carter got abuse for his tax affairs, and yet yesterday in | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
Parliament David Cameron made a joke about Gary Barlow. He should not | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
give back his OBE, we should take it back from him. The gentleman is | :05:05. | :05:13. | |
quite right, because when it was a comedian in the spotlight, David | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
Cameron said it was morally wrong what happened there. But when it has | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
come to Gary Barlow, he has taken a different tack. It seems to me that | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
probably everyone here and people watching, most of us pay as we earn. | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
We pay our tax, and what we have not got its access to accountants and | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
others who can find a way for us to hide our money. I am not that | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
interested about the OBE, although it might be worth checking out | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
people's tax situation before we award one. But what I do think is | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
that Gary Barlow and the many others like him should not only pay that | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
tax back, but where it is proven they should pay penalties as well. | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
Hang on a second. You said something quite serious. They should pay | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
penalties? Let's be absolutely clear. As I understand it, tax | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
avoidance schemes have two be registered with the HMRC, and then | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
they decide whether to accept a scheme. So there is not a criminal | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
offence. Why should you pay a penalty? If these things are found | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
to be wrong and beyond what HMRC are saying, they should pay penalties as | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
well. People are fed up of seeing wealthy people and corporations | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
getting out of their tax obligations. The fact is your | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
government, David Cameron decided to give a tax cut to people earning | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
over ?150,000 a year, even though you wanted to harm people through | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
the bedroom tax. A brief answer to that. To point out the factual | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
inaccuracies, we have tightened the rules, we are getting more in than | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
ever before and we have increased the penalties. Because we all know | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
that money should come back to the British public. So factually | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
inaccurate, Caroline. I agree with the point you are making about the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
top rate of tax. I think it comes down to the question of an optimal | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
rate. If it is set to hide, it does deter rich people away. -- if it is | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
set to high. There has to be a decision where the top level is set, | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
otherwise rich people move abroad. What do you think about Gary Barlow? | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
He should handle all the money back, but he should keep his OBE, on the | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
grounds of how much he has done for the UK, in terms of charity work and | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
obviously services to the music industry. He has done nothing | :07:40. | :07:49. | |
illegal. If I had ?63 million and I could afford to pay accountants to | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
help me not pay as much tax as I possibly could, even earning ?40,000 | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
a year. If I could get someone to do that and save me money in my pocket, | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
I would do it, and I am sure 90% of this audience would do it. Paddy | :08:04. | :08:12. | |
Ashdown, do you want to pick up on that? I want to pick up on the point | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
which Esther McVey made. He received the OBE for other things and I think | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
the case for that stands. Should it be removed? No. Should he pay the | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
penalty for the steps he has taken to avoid taxation, yes. That is | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
where we should concentrate. That is my view. Humza's point, as usual, | :08:31. | :08:40. | |
parts company with fact and reality. The government has disastrous cut | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
the deficit, it is the poor that have paid the price. No, it is not. | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
As a result of the work done by the Liberal Democrats, 25 million people | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
have had ?800 less in taxation every year. 2.7 million of the lowest paid | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
have been taken out of tax altogether. There is now 2.5 million | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
being paid to the families of the poorest pupils in pupil premium to | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
help them with education. Pensioners in this country are now getting ?600 | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
more in their pension annually than they ever got under Labour. Quite | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
the contrary. What we have seen is the deficit cut by one third already | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
and by half by next year, while the economy is now growing faster than | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
ever before, and there is 1.3 million new jobs being created and | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
1.5 million apprentices. And tax avoidance as an issue? Tax avoidance | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
is a very big issue but it is true to say this government is pursuing | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
that with more resources than any previous government has done. Every | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
government wants to tackle tax avoidance. Of course it is a big | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
issue and anybody who avoids taxes should be pursued. It is not easy | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
but the government is devoting resources to that on a larger scale | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
than we have seen before. But the central point is that the tough | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
action the government has taken has cut the deficit, has begun to repair | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
the economy that was trashed by Labour, while at the same time | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
getting the economy to grow by 1.7% and probably more than that by the | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
time the election comes, and 1.3 million new jobs. That is not a bad | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
record, and it is not on the backs of the poor. Someone said to me a | :10:25. | :10:36. | |
couple of days ago, should Gary Barlow give back his OBE? And I | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
replied, Gary Barlow has an OBE! It is not just for services to the | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
music industry, because that would be an irony too far. It is also for | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
charity work. He is not a bad man and has done it and is not a bad man | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
and has done a comment as amount for this country for which he and was | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
rightly rewarded. If the allegations are true, he took advantage of | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
something which is perfectly legal. We might not become the ball with it | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
and that is understandable, and some people may even be quite angry with | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
it, given how much he makes. Some people are applauding. But he has | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
done something that is perfectly legal. When a tax system that is | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
incredibly compact or avaricious, it encourages people to take advantage | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
of such loopholes and to move their money overseas. Loopholes which | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
previous governments have encouraged in order to get rich people to stay. | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
If the tax system were simpler and taxes were lower, those people would | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
be more in plot -- inclined to obey the rules totally, not move anything | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
overseas and do the right thing. If we bring taxes down, as this | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
government has done for some, you actually find that income goes up. | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
So let's lower it, simplify it, and this sort of thing won't happen. | :11:54. | :12:03. | |
You can join in the debate on text or Twitter. The red button is the | :12:04. | :12:16. | |
one to push if you want to see what people are saying. Elizabeth | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
Kimberley, please. Is Michael Gove and ideological obsessed zealot, and | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
should he be reined in over his free schools policy? | :12:26. | :12:36. | |
These were quotes attributed to Liberal Democrat sources over a row | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
over funding free schools at the expense of other school 's, | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
extensive quotes about him acting in a way that was nothing short of | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
lunacy. Caroline Flint, do you agree with ideological obsessed zealot who | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
should be reined in? There are 22,000 state schools of which free | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
schools represent less than 1%. I wish there was more discussion about | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
the 22,000. But what we have seen in the last week is a situation where | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
we have had Michael Gove and Nick Clegg at each other's throats over | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
education policy. Nick Clegg has his free school meals policy, and | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
apparently funding for that was not worked out and was being trashed by | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
the Tories. On the free schools, we now find there is an 800 million | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
black hole in which they have had to raid money from primary schools to | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
fill the gap. RU in favour of schools? I am in favour of | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
academies, and what we have said is that if we win the next general | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
election we will have three tests in place. One is that schools should be | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
in areas of need. One of the problems with free schools is that | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
two thirds of them are secondary schools, which does not help primary | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
schools, and they are not in the right places to help the need for | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
primary school places. Secondly, we need oversight to deal with some of | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
the problems that have emerged. Thirdly, we believe you should have | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
qualified teachers in all schools, or people working towards | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
qualifications. The problem is that in the last week what we have seen, | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
and I can't quite work out whether it is just Liberal Democrats and | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
Tories trying to differentiate themselves because there is an | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
election next week, or whether it is incompetence. I feel it is a bit of | :14:24. | :14:33. | |
both. Paddy Ashdown what do you make of the Liberal Democrats accusing | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
Michael Gove? There has been hot-headed language on both sides. | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
It's not my style of politics. I don't agree with some of the more | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
colourful adjective used by either sides. Not the politicians | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
concerned, their supporting staff, they are the ones who can let loose | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
a bit and the press will pick it up. I don't think that is the issue, | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
frankly. If some officials want to use overheated language, fine, let | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
them do so. There is a rift? Certainly not over school meals and | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
the principle of free school meals from September you will get that. | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
It's a very significant advance. I don't say every school will be in a | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
position to deliver from September. 90-95% will. That is a significant | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
move. I'm proud it's the Liberal Democrats who led it, with the | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
support of the Conservatives, very clearly expressed. On the issue of | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
free schools. I'm glad Caroline Flint told us the Labour Party is in | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
favour of free schools. There has been doubt about this as they went | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
backwards and forwards in the last year. They have come clean. I'm | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
delighted about that. I am too. It offers choice. Who delivers is not | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
as important as what is the standard of the education that is delivered. | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
Provided it's universal access, free-for-all to go to, paid for from | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
taxation and subject to proper inspection and quality control. | :15:58. | :15:59. | |
Those are the three concerns I have. Now, what worries me about the free | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
schools is not the principle, I'm in favour of that. In the way it has | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
been enacted. We are now facing a very serious pressure on school | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
places. There are some local authorities who will not this year | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
be able to provide their statutory duties to parents to provide places | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
for their children. At that time, to take ?400 million out of the funds | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
for basic needs, and put it into try and fill ?800 million black hole in | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
the free school budget, seems to me to be wrong. We have said so. I | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
think it's right that we should. The job of the Liberal Democrats in this | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
Government is to hold people to account when they move in directions | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
that we think are not fair. Now, I agree with free schools, but the way | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
that this has been enacted so far, the shift of that money from where | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
it is desperately needed to face a crisis, to fill a black hole in an | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
area which is not, I think are gives it a bad reputation. It's very well | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
you saying that. We are in agreement on that. The truth is, the Liberal | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
Democrats signed up to this policy. No. They signed up to the budgets | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
being set. Clearly, the budgets weren't thought threw. That is why | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
primary school money in the state sector is being raided right now. | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
There is not a single thing that Liberal Democrat MP or a member of | :17:23. | :17:24. | |
the Government sitting on the benches with the Conservative | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
ministers can do about it. That is wrong. What will you do about it? | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
You would have signed up to the policy too. It's not the principle | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
of the policy? No. You said you were in favour of free schools, are you | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
not? Is This is about the budget. No the principle of free schools, are | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
you in favour of them or not? When the policy was set up, it was not | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
about endangering other funding for primary schools that weren't free | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
schools. What has happened, as you quite rightly said, there is an ?800 | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
million black hole, 50% of under spend has gone to pay for it. 50% | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
coming from the basic needs budget from primary schools. The Liberal | :18:01. | :18:02. | |
Democrat ministers haven't been doing the job they should be doing. | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
Auto who identified this but Liberal Democrat ministers. Tories are | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
accused of having taken this money out and left a black hole behind. | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
Michael Gove is accused of being ideologically obsessed what do you | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
say about the argument from Paddy Ashdown and Caroline Flint? Driven | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
and determined to make sure we have excellent education, I would say, | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
yes. Caroline, when you know Labour's record is that one in three | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
kids left primary school unable to read, write and do maths. What was | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
it like in 97? We fell down the tables in maths, English and | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
science, it's not accept. What we want to do is make sure all children | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
from all backgrounds get the best possible education that we can have. | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
That is why he is driven. That is why he is focussed. This is a lad | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
who was adopted. Went to a comprehensive school. Worked up to | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
Oxford. Of course he is driven and focussed. He wants to make sure that | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
everybody has that opportunity to succeed where they can. Free | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
schools, well, 80% of them are built now and made in areas of economic | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
deprivation. 0% are in areas of absolute need, where parents, staff, | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
teachers have come forward and said - we want to build these schools for | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
our kids. -- 70%. That is the reality. The money for new places at | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
schools have doubled. ?5 billion. Wrong there. We would all agree we | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
want to make sure our kids get the best education something they | :19:43. | :19:44. | |
weren't getting under Labour. What about the ?400 million that Paddy | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
Ashdown referred to, wrongly taken out of one budget - Wasn't wrongly | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
taken out of a budget. If people need the schools and people want to | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
support those schools, a and parents and teachers are saying this is what | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
we need in our area, they are the people who should have the say. We | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
need to do that. This is a protected budget. It has doubled for new | :20:05. | :20:12. | |
school places by ?5 billion. The main parties aren't actually | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
listening to parents. 207,000 people put in a protest to the Government | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
to change a policy that was introduced in September last year. | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
The main parties aren't listening to adults make -- sorry, decision | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
abouts things and not talking to us. Was the policy? School attendance | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
policy was completely ignored by the department - the petition for the | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
school attendance reversal. You, sir, at the back. I think it's not | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
so much the opportunity for parents to choose the school, it's the | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
consequences of those schools choosing against the other schools. | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
The 2,000 are getting more than the 22,000. 200. The 200, even worse! | :20:57. | :21:05. | |
OK. Over here. You, sir. Yes. When you look at this, there is a | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
fundamental contradiction. Local authorities are legally bound to | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
provide school places and, at the same time, they are banned from | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
opening schools of their own. You end up with schools with Portakabins | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
on the car park or office blocks being converted. That will not give | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
us good universal education. You, sir, second row from the back. | :21:30. | :21:38. | |
Esther said about different numeracy problems, dropping down in the | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
tables, that is with Government intervention. Surely the Government | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
should butt out and let the teachers teach. | :21:46. | :21:53. | |
APPLAUSE The sliding down of the league | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
tables took place in the latter years of the Labour Government. | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
There has been a mild improve am since Gove took over. If Michael | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
Gove is an Ied log, I will be honest, I'm fanatical member of his | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
barmy army, I think he's marvellous. If you take the case of free | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
schools. If you take the case of free schools. The reason why so much | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
money has to be diverted towards them is because they are popular. | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
Since the policy started 300 have been set up. Three people are trying | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
to get one place. If you get into a free school, that school is twice as | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
likely to end up being regarded as outstanding as a normal school is. | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
They are incredibly successful. You in Coventry will get two new free | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
schools, I believe, faith schools, one Muslim and one seek, they will | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
take -- Sikh, they will take 50% of people not from those faiths. You | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
are fortunate. The statistics show those schools outperform the | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
so-called normal schools. The whole principle of Michael Gove's approach | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
is to hand power back to teachers and parents, it's not about taking | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
it away from them, it's about empowering. The parents set it up. | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
You will have to persuade the woman here in the front who has been... | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
Happily. Have worked in it for four years. I'm leaving after four years. | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
The man in control does not what he is doing at all. | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
APPLAUSE He is not interested in the | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
profession. Why are so many parents setting them up? Why do you say | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
that? I feel like he - he's making decisions and he doesn't know the | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
profession, he doesn't understand the stresses and the pressures we | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
are under at all. He hasn't worked in it. I don't understand how he is | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
making decisions based on no experience whatsoever. No wonder | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
they are going wrong? Jeremy Hunt is minister for health, he is not a | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
drchlt you run a ministry, you come into it with ideas and general | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
experience when it comes to administration. Have you seen what | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
he is doing to the health service of England? That's where we are going | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
wrong! Is Scotland is in a different position on this. We will hear from | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
you. The woman in the third row, yes, from the back. Oh, hello! Yes, | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
I mean, I just like to pick up on that point. I think absolutely the | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
problem is that Gove does not listen at all. He doesn't listen to | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
teachers. He's constantly rubbishing teachers and student students' | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
achievements, he doesn't listen to educational experts. He dismiss what | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
educational experts say if they disagree with them, he regards them | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
as raving marxists. I want to pick up on testing. And Pisa testing. | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
Recently in the Guardian there was a letter from a large group of | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
academics, international academics, who were question - it was a letter | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
to the Director of Education for the OECD, saying, what is going on here? | :25:09. | :25:18. | |
Why are these tests dominating education worldwide. Do you want to | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
answer the point she made about - you have said quite a lot. About the | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
Goef point, he doesn't listen. That was your point, wasn't it? I know, I | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
have been out with him on tours that he gets around the country, he meets | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
with people. He meets with kids. He meets with parents. He meets with | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
teachers. Does he act on it All of that is part of a listening examiner | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
countries. You have the best schools and have kids getting the best | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
education it's vital you listen to everybody. I'm sure, you know, he | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
would be disappointed if for you to think that way. I do know that this | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
is something that he is most passionate about and what he came | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
into politics to do. He loves the subject and wants to help people. If | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
he thought you felt that way, maybe he has to do something about maybe | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
how he has come across to you. That isn't the case. The guy really | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
cares. If he wants to talk to me, I would be very pleased to talk to | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
him. APPLAUSE | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
It's PR. I can set up a date between the two of you then! A PR matter for | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
Goef really? Presental improvement. We have stopped the tumbling down | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
the academic tables. We are starting to go up. He has got that right. He | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
is there to change things. People have put them there. Teachers are a | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
unionised special interest. They are resistant to change. That is | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
entirely understandable - How rude! It's changing every four years! When | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
Tim said he was part of the barmy army, I think the barmy party | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
(inaudible) I'm an outside observe server coming from Scotland. In | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
Scotland we don't have free schools we have education controlled by the | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government. Caroline Flint got it | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
correct. These manufactured fights and arguments that they are having | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
between the coalition are because there is a European election of | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
course and a general election in one year's time. Let me give you a | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
Scottish perspective on that. The Scottish perspective is, since the | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
Liberal Democrats leapt into bed with the Conservatives, they lost | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
two-thirds of their seats in the Scottish Parliament. They lost over | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
half their local council election seats, by all projectionses they | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
will lose their single member of the European parliament. My only plea to | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
the audience here, this is an issue issue. My only plea to you, that I | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
have seen from the outside, what they have done with university | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
education, charging students up to ?9,000, in Scotland we decided not | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
to do. That my plea to you is - do not allow them to create a two-tier | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
system of education. Make sure you protect your children's education. | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
It's a right and not a privilege. E.. It | :28:16. | :28:26. | |
APPLAUSE -- It's good to say about funding | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
for schools. Catholic schools have to fund 10% themselves. They are | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
struggling to do it. It's affecting the education of children. What will | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
be done about this? All right. I will take a point from you. Will | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
Goef listen to parents? He hasn't listened to us. He had people in the | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
country screaming at him to change a policy. You saying the free school | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
policy is not approved of by parents. Why do so many parents | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
apparently queue up to go to free schools. He listened to one group of | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
people and listened to you and agreed with the other group of | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
people. That is how decision works. What parents are concerned about, | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
I'm agreed with Esther on this, it is right that everyone has an access | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
to a decent state school education. That is what parents want. Let us | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
have some of the discussion about the 22,000 schools rather than the | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
obsession around 200 schools that are called "free." | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
I just want to correct Humza again. If the university student loans | :29:33. | :29:44. | |
system is so bad, how can it be, and by the way the student fees system | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
introduced was more generous than that under Labour, but how can it be | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
that the number of students going to university has not come down as | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
everybody predicted, but it has gone up? And how can it be that the | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
number of students from the poorest families are much higher as a | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
proportion in England than in Scotland? The system you are | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
claiming does not help the poor is actually ensuring that a higher | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
proportion of poor students are going to English universities than | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
hard today going to Scottish ones. Why did Nick Clegg apologise? | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
Because he was right? That would be a first. Because the promise made | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
before the election was a promise we should not have made. It is not an | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
apology for the policy but for making a promise that was | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
inappropriate in the economic circumstances at the time. That | :30:37. | :30:44. | |
apology is not accepted. Let's go on. Can any possible good arise from | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
the Prime Minister's visit to Scotland today? In the light of the | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
referendum that is coming in the Scotland, can it possibly do any | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
good? Humza, perhaps you should start. He has obviously come to | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
Scotland because of the referendum. My only regret is that he is only up | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
for two days. I wish it was five. I would have paid for his | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
accommodation, because every time David Cameron or a Tory grandee | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
comes to Scotland to say, the earth is going to swallow you up if you | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
become independent and thunderbolts will come from the sky, and you will | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
not get Doctor Who on the television, all of these scare | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
stories that they have come out with, we have seen time and time | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
again over the last six months especially that the campaign to | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
support independence, the yes campaign has increased, and support | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
for the no campaign has begun to diminish. It worries me greatly when | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
I see the polls of the UK general election, because I do not want | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
another Tory government. That is why I support independence, because I | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
want to see in Scotland people get the government that they elect. How | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
absurd is it that David Cameron has come to Scotland? He has one MP in | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
his party, one MP in the entire country. As the old joke goes, if it | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
wasn't so tragic it would be funny that there are more giant pandas in | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
Edinburgh zoo than there are Tory MPs in the entire country. Let me | :32:13. | :32:21. | |
just finished this point... What was the percentage of Scots who voted | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
Conservative at the last general election? I don't know the exact | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
number. You are saying the Prime Minister has no right to go to | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
Scotland. I didn't say that. I actually said I would liken to come | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
to Scotland for even longer. I am quite aware that I am speaking to | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
running dish audience about Scottish independence. Let me put it like | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
this to you. -- to an English audience. Whether you are here, or | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
in Bradford or Newcastle, let's face it, like Vince Cable said, London is | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
a giant sucking machine draining the rest of the UK. The politics of the | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
Westminster establishment is entirely prioritised by the needs of | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
zone one and zone two in London and the south-east of England. If you | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
have the chance to get rid of a Westminster elite that is scandal | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
ridden, that is London obsessed and London centric, I bet you would take | :33:19. | :33:28. | |
it in a heartbeat, too. I think it is too long that the English have | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
been locked out of the debate about the union and I am pleased we are | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
going to finally be a part of it. I think the Better Together campaign | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
made a huge mistake, the people saying let's stay together. They | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
decided to focus on economics, and that turned into essentially | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
economic blackmail. They said, if you become independent, you will | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
starve. That, rightly, offended the Scots and I think it is behind the | :33:54. | :33:55. | |
increase in support for independence. We now have to return | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
to what the debate should be about, which is about the emotional, | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
cultural, political reasons for the union. As an English person who is | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
proudly pro-union, I would like to take this opportunity to say what | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
they are. This is the most successful experiment in | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
multiculturalism in history. For 300 years it has made us wealthier, | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
improved our culture, made us better, more tolerant people. There | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
are people across the globe who look at us and marvel at the wonders and | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
riches that we have. And it is so amazing to think of ourselves as a | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
family, Northern Irishman Welsh, English, Scottish. Very different, | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
bickering, as families always do, but United through walls, | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
depressions, recessions, and coming out of its strong because we are | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
brothers and sisters. Please, Scotland, I say this as an English | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
man so passionately, please, don't leave us, we need you. Well said. So | :34:54. | :35:05. | |
it was a good idea for the Prime Minister to go to Scotland? I think | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
so because he is Prime Minister of the whole United Kingdom. As a | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
Scotsman living in England I see it from both sides of the fence. But | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
recently, I think yesterday, George Osborne was quoted as saying that | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
Alex Salmond was a bully, bullying people into a yes vote. Is George | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
Osborne not as much of a bully, bullying the Scots by saying they | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
won't have a currency union if Scotland vote yes to independence? | :35:36. | :35:43. | |
300 years together, it is like a long relationship, and sometimes | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
when you have been in a relationship with somebody you think, how are we | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
going to stay together? Sometimes you've -- you give warnings, | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
cautious words, whisper sweet nothings to make sure you stay | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
together. So you will be saying things like, can you afford this, | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
will you be able to do this? This is the downside should you leave us. I | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
don't think that is bullying. I think it is somebody who cares about | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
you saying, there are all these things to think about. Because it | :36:12. | :36:21. | |
might be... Hang on a second. You might be making your name on the | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
back of this, and the SNP might be making their name on the back of | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
this, but actually this is a huge history of people who have been | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
together for a long time, and I do believe we are Better Together. | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
Yes, our cultures are different and we have differences between us, but | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
that is what makes us great together. So I would stay together, | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
but I would also heed the warnings. With a name like Esther McVey, I | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
have relatives up there, and I would heed the warnings and listen to how | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
it could work together. But we should listen, too, in England. We | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
need to know why we are rubbing up against each other, why it is not | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
working so well at the moment. There is time for us to listen and get it | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
right as well. But let's get it sorted. Sometimes it is just better | :37:09. | :37:17. | |
to divorce. There is no point continuing in a relationship that's | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
not working. That's get divorced and move on. | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
I would like to know why people in England and Wales are not getting a | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
say on this. It is just for Scotland to vote, but the whole of the UK | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
will be completely changed. So why doesn't everyone else get a say? | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
Because that is the way these things are done, I'm afraid. Tim, it pains | :37:40. | :37:47. | |
me greatly to have two agree with a columnist of the Daily Telegraph. | :37:48. | :37:55. | |
Imagine how I feel right now. You said all the things I would wish to | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
have said. If part of the nation wishes to separate, that part takes | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
the decision, not the nation as a whole. That is the historical | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
principle. You may regret that we don't have a voice in this. Does | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
that apply to the Ukraine as well? It would if there had been a proper | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
referendum but there never has been. But we will get on to that later. | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
The gentleman at the back, you said if it isn't working we should get a | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
divorce. There is no union I camping cover in history that has worked | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
better than this, for 200, 300, 400 years. Let's start off properly. The | :38:31. | :38:38. | |
Scots are a great nation in their own right. They have a fantastic | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
great, individual national history. They have a national education | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
system, a national system of law, different and in some ways better | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
than ours, so they are entitled to have this debate. A should be | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
treated with respect in having this debate and they are entitled to make | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
this choice. Those who argue that Scotland could not survive by itself | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
are talking nonsense, in my view. The argument is not that Scotland | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
can't do this but that we are Better Together. And what worries me most, | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
Humza, listening to you, this is a rhetoric that might suit Scotland if | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
you are debating there, but I cannot listen to your language without | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
being worried about the infusion of hate that is in there, hate of | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
London, hate of this filthy elite, hate of the South, it is the | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
language of division. And the reality of it is that we have made a | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
fantastic success, in 400 years, of Great Britain, because we have put | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
aside our divisions and worked together. I am desperate for | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
Scotland to say no to independence because we will be stronger as a | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
country, but I passionately believe that they will be too. All of those | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
great things that are Scottish and make such a contribution to us, they | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
would be lost to us. This would be a disaster. But whatever happens, | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
Humza, let's have a more civilised debate than the kind of argument you | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
are using, rather than this argument of hate and division. | :40:05. | :40:04. | |
APPLAUSE I have the greatest respect for Lord | :40:05. | :40:21. | |
Ashdown and what he says. But it is not hatred and division. | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
When you talked about the greatest economic union, I am just telling | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
you the stark reality on the ground. We have 85,000 people, the | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
majority of them in a disabled household, who have been hit by the | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
bedroom tax. It is not Better Together for them. Immigrants who | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
have been told to go home by government-sponsored posters, it is | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
not Better Together for them, Lord Ashdown. Pensioners who have been | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
saving for 50 years seeing their pensions decimated, it is not Better | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
Together for them. My point is that all of those decisions are made by a | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
coalition government that we did not elect. The problem with David | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
Cameron coming to Scotland is that he has the audacity to say he is | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
going to debate Nigel Farage, someone who does not have a single | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
MP in Scotland. UKIP have never even saved the deposit. But he won't | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
debate with Alex Salmond, the democratically elected head of the | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
Scottish Government. That is audacious and absolutely | :41:22. | :41:30. | |
unacceptable. I think the Prime minister is entitled to visit | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
Scotland, because he is the Prime Minister. And I have to say, what | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
Humza and Alex Salmond would love is to make this debate all about Alex | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
Salmond versus David Cameron, because that is what they want to | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
do. They want to have it as a debate about Scotland versus Westminster. | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
But that isn't the issue here. The vote in September is for Scots to | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
decide if they want to separate and leave the United Kingdom. That is | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
the question on the table. As Paddy and Tim have said, I think we have, | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
as a union, been very successful. And I am very proud that it was a | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
Labour government that sort through the devolution for Scotland and | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
Wales. I think we can be relaxed and confident about the choices that | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
Scotland might make that might be different to here in England, or | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
different to Wales or Northern Ireland for that matter. But at the | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
same time not lose sight of the cultural and emotional links, but | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
also the economic links that make us Better Together. And I don't think | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
we should allow the SNP to let this debate be one about Alex Salmond | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
versus David Cameron. That is not the issue. What they cannot have is | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
a situation where they want to promote Scotland leaving the UK and | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
think they will not have any consequences, because it will be | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
very different. I hope that when Scots come to think about this and | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
all the issues, I really hope that they stay with us. There are a | :43:07. | :43:15. | |
number of people with hands up. I just want to say that I am pro | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
union, but I agree with Humza that this issue is so important that the | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
leaders should debate with Alex Salmond, all of the party leaders | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
should get together and debate. It is crucial for the future of my | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
daughter and the UK that she is going to grow up in. | :43:35. | :43:44. | |
I agree with Paddy and Tim. The trouble is, the Better Together | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
campaign is symptomatic of what is wrong with British politics, a | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
constant focus on negative campaigning. Labour's election | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
broadcast recently was a good example of that. There is a constant | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
moaning and groaning about what other people are doing, instead of | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
promoting the positive, which is what the Better Together campaign | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
should do. A question for Humza. If you believe | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
so passionately that Scotland should be independent white, if you get | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
independence, do you want to join the European Union? -- why? Sure. | :44:22. | :44:32. | |
Then the 28 countries of the European union wouldn't be | :44:33. | :44:34. | |
independence. They are. The difference is, they had the choice. | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
With the European Union that is a fantastic point we don't get our | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
choice. Our voice heard at the top table in the European Union. I agree | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
entirely with this lady. This is a debate between negative and | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
positive. Look, Scotland is a wealthy country. We could be the | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
14th wealthiest country in the world. Create a fairer and more | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
social just welfare system. We Coe get rid of nuclear Trident missiles | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
on our soil and invest that money in public services. It's a debate about | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
unlocking Scotland's future. We will not separate and dwoors, take a | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
chainsaw down to Carlisle and drift off into the North Sea. It's not | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
about Celts and anthems. It's about creating the system to help the | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
poorest, not at the expense of the poorest. I believe the Better | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
Together campaign have been too negative. That is why they are | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
haemorrhaging support. Not true. It's not Better Together for us who | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
have to pay for prescriptions and have university fees that Scotland | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
don't? You don't pay. You think Scotland should go its own way? If | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
they do. Hopefully, it will be for the better for the rest of us. For | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
England. The man there. I find it ironic that Tim and Paddy were | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
talking about the greaty multi Kewellure experience. Tim talked | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
about the need for greater immigration controls in his column. | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
He is talking about the multi-cultural experience with | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
Scottish people. Are we only to let people in if they come from the | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
right country? APPLAUSE | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
First of all, thank you for reading. I really do appreciate that! | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
Although, obviously, I wish you hadn't now! No, what I'm talking | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
about is the need for control when it comes from immigration from the | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
European union. That is a specific debate. What we are discussing here | :46:36. | :46:43. | |
is policy. The there is is a criticism of Tory party policy to | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
vote for Labour not leaving the union. There are plenty of people | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
who don't like the bedroom tax, they don't seek independence, they are | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
seeking to change the policy. If you don't like the policy change it is a | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
a country, let's not split off because we disagree with something | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
London - The man there. I'm not one of David Cameron's favourites, or he | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
is not one of my favourites! He is the UK Prime Minister, he can go | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
where he likes. What I'm pretty sure, if Aberdeen and its oil | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
industry was south of the border we wouldn't be having this discussion | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
now. Tim, whenever you are on, can we all have some? O OK. Another | :47:24. | :47:34. | |
question. Emily McFadden. The International Criminal Court has | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
announced preliminary investigations into allegations of the UK's | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
systematic abuse of Iraqis. To what extent should politicians be held | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
accountable for the actions of our soldiers? The first part of this, | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
the ICC announcing preliminary investigations is well-known. The | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
question is, to what extent should politicians be held accountable for | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
the actions of our soldiers. Paddy Ashdown? They should be. If | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
politicians give the orders which soldiers then carry out, then they | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
absolutely should be. The let me take the case of the ICC, if I can, | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
then see if I can illustrate it with a small story. The I krvp, it's a | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
prim examination, not an investigation. Secondly, there are | :48:19. | :48:28. | |
robust systems in Britain for investigating it. It is | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
investigating 43 cases of individual soldiers who acted beyond the law. | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
The law set by politicians, of course. That is out of about | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
140,000. The ICC is claiming to seek to investigate something which I | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
think, first of all, the British Government rejects happened. | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
Secondly, it ma it the case it is already investigating these. We are | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
signatories to the ICC. We should observe and respect the ICC in its | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
decisions. It's in our interests to do so. Not only legally, but also in | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
terms of the interest of our country. Let me give you a story, if | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
I can, briefly. In 1996 I was in the village in Kosovo when we were | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
bombarded by the main battle units of the Serb army, tanks and heavy | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
artillery. I was with Kosovo Albanians in the villages there, it | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
was extremely unpleasant. On the following day I went to see | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
Milosevic. I took the Geneva Convention. I said, what I witnessed | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
yesterday was a clear breach where it touches on the rights of | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
treatment of innocent civilians by an order force you could be brought | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
to the Hague. The next time I saw him was when I gave evidence in the | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
Hague for the Milosevic's trial for that day's work I witnessed. The | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
fact that you have a Lou law that can bring a politician to justice | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
for a breach of international law and it's oldest version, the gee | :49:56. | :50:03. | |
Nina convention make it is a safer world -- Geneva. That same day | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
before I saw Milosevic I spoke to the Serb artillery commanders who | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
bombarded us in those villages the day before. What I discovered was | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
that those artillery commanders were more frightened of being indicted by | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
The Hague tribunal than they were of being bombed by NATO. I said to Tony | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
Blair, have them indicted now. If you have a court like this. If you | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
have a system of international law like this. It delivers justice to | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
those who breached after the event. It controls the actions of tyrants | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
and torturers and murders during the course of the war. That is why it it | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
so important. Whatever our position in Britain we should adhere to the | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
prescriptions of our court. It's in our legal duty to do so and in our | :50:56. | :50:57. | |
interests to do so well. You, sir. I'd like to say I think it | :50:58. | :51:10. | |
is rich and very sick that politicians continually avoid these | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
sort of trials and blames when, you know, we have Tony Blair that | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
started sending our young men to war. Young men that, by the way, are | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
trained to be aggressive. Are trained to view the enemy in a | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
certain way. Young men who volunteer their own lives for the good of our | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
country. When these people make mistakes, as everyone does in all | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
walks of life, these men are singled out and ridiculed in the media and | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
quite often sent to military prison. They lose their pension, benefits | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
and everything else. Meanwhile, the politicians just get away scot free. | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
We seem to be chasing wars in countries and this debate hasn't | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
been had before. There are is all sorts of oil and everything else. | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
When hundreds of schoolgirls in Nigeria get kidnapped, where are our | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
forces there? Surely we can go in and get them back. You mentioned | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
Tony Blair. Caroline Flint you are a great supporter of Tony Blair's. | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
What is your view of what he has just said? My view on the | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
International Criminal Court is that we absolutely are right to be | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
signatories to it. And, part of the task of the International Criminal | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
Court is where there is evidence of systematic abuse, and where | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
countries that are run by dictatorships do not have a legal | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
system to bring individuals, whether they are politicians, army | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
commanders, or whoever, to account, that is where the international | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
court can step in. I think that is absolutely right. Clearly, if we had | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
a situation in this country where we weren't following up on allegations | :52:51. | :52:58. | |
of misuse, torture, rape, or whatever, then, quite rightly, the | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
ICC would step in and take action. As Paddy said, we do have a system | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
of legal proceedings in this country, thank goodness, that will | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
follow these issues up and follow them through. That is absolutely | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
right. Is it necessary for the I krvp C to carry out any kind of | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
investigation? Is it because some people say rather shaming to find | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
Britains name among a list of nation - Because - because Let Caroline | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
answer the point. Because, it's perfectly right that if individuals, | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
a group of lawyers, or whoever, decide that they want to approach | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
the ICC, and ask them to look at a case, then that is quite right that | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
should be done. As Paddy said, that is exactly what is happening. An | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
investigation hasn't started. They are looking into the complaint that | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
has been made. It may be that actually it won't get any further | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
than this. Because we do have proceedings in this country that can | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
hold politicians and others to accounts. There are cases under way | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
at the moment. We need to be clear about this. I respect and will stand | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
up for the right for people to approach this court, just in the | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
same way as I would stand up for the right of people to approach the | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
European Court on human rights. That does not mean we should feel ashamed | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
at this stage. We should be proud of the fact that we have a legal system | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
that can bring people to task in this country. , sir, second row from | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
the back. We are quick enough to put our soldiers in the courts, not | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
quick enough to put our politicians in the courts in the same way. | :54:37. | :54:49. | |
APPLAUSE We are still waiting for the | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
Chilcott report some many, many years after Afghanistan and Iraq. | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
The one on the Falklands was completed in six months. Most of the | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
information that we believe is still being held back by Tony Blair and | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
Bush. It has been suggested that certain politicians, who shall not | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
be named, have not helped with that inquiry and have indeed helped to | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
delay it. Why can't they be named? I don't want to get in trouble! On the | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
philosophical point about who takes the most blame, soldiers or | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
politicians. I was disgusted by those pictures. Those soldiers | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
should face disciplinary action for what happened. Those two men were | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
under-fire. They had faced a terrible attack which is the | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
explanation that has been given for why they did what they did. It is no | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
excuse. They should still face discipline. Politicians created the | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
context. The context is the Iraq war. Since that war began 435 | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
British service personnel have given their life. For what? For the | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
creation of a constitution that cannot guarantee the security of | :55:55. | :55:57. | |
women and their rights. For ople yum production which has reached the | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
highest it has ever been. And now increasingly for negotiations with | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
the Taliban, the very people we started the war in order to fight. I | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
think it's sad that politicians can make such terrible decisions, which | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
cost lives, and never ultimately face responsibility for it in the | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
court of public opinion. OK. Thank you. | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
APPLAUSE We have a a minute left of this | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
programme. I won't take long. I agree with what the gentleman at the | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
front has been saying, that Tony Blair in particular, the legal war | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
in Iraq has managed to get away with it scot free. The problem in this | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
country now, what we have done, a lot of good work very done | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
internationally, has been undermined by the fact that war has become the | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
first resort as opposed to the last resort. That is just completely the | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
wrong way round. In recent years, you know, we have been in conflicts | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
we shouldn't have been in. You can only take half the time. If you want | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
the ICC not to indict you, don't go into conflicts we don't have to be | :57:04. | :57:11. | |
in. Esther Mcvey. I think it was admiral Lord West who said this, I | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
agree. If anybody was can captured around the world the soldiers you | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
hoped would have captured would be the British soldiers, they are | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
fairer than anybody else. Better than anybody else. I say they go to | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
the highest standards in the world. So... | :57:29. | :57:30. | |
APPLAUSE If anybody has done anything wrong, | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
it is right for all of us to find that out and get it sorted out. It | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
is not systematic. It does not happen all the time. It will be a | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
rare exception because we do have the best people in our army. Here, | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
here. APPLAUSE | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
Thank you very much. The time is up for this edition of Question Time. | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
Next Thursday is election night. We have the local and the European | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
elections. Therefore, Question Time will come from the village of | :57:58. | :58:08. | |
Radlett near the BBC's Elstree Studios in Hertfordshire. To that | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
programme, Chris Grayling comes, Jeremy Brown and the television | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
presenter Kirstie Allsopp. The week after that we will be in a | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
spectacular place the newly restored Terminal 2 at Heathrow Airport. You | :58:26. | :58:33. | |
don't have to take a flight as well. Nobody - there won't be people | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
queueing in the background. We are at Terminal 2, a fabulous site. If | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
you like to come to Elstree or Heathrow you can apply on our | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
website. Address is on the screen: You can call us: | :58:48. | :58:54. | |
if you are listening on Five Live the debate goes on on Question Time | :58:55. | :59:02. | |
Extratime, not here, however. My thanks to my panel and all of you | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
who came here to Coventry to take part. Until next Thursday, from | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
Question Time, good night. Ladies and gentlemen... | :59:11. | :59:35. | |
It's an honour to be here. Let's take a look... | :59:36. | :59:37. | |
..at the nominations. We're here to celebrate | :59:38. | :59:39. | |
a great 12 months for television. The BAFTA... | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
..is awarded to... | :59:43. | :59:45. |