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Tonight we're at Titanic, Belfast, and this is Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:05 | |
And a big welcome to you at home, | 0:00:12 | 0:00:14 | |
whether you're watching on television or listening to BBC Radio 5 Live, | 0:00:14 | 0:00:18 | |
to our audience here, of course, and to our panel. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:20 | |
Tonight, the Conservative Secretary of State | 0:00:20 | 0:00:23 | |
for Northern Ireland, Theresa Villiers, | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
the former Cabinet minister, | 0:00:25 | 0:00:26 | |
now Labour peer in the House of Lords, Peter Hain, | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
the deputy leader of the Democratic Unionist Party | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
and its leader at Westminster, Nigel Dodds, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
Sinn Fein's National Chairman Declan Kearney | 0:00:35 | 0:00:38 | |
and the comedian and writer Grainne Maguire. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:42 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:42 | 0:00:44 | |
Thanks very much. | 0:00:52 | 0:00:54 | |
Now, just as always, if you want to join the debate, | 0:00:54 | 0:00:56 | |
which I'm sure you do from home | 0:00:56 | 0:00:57 | |
because we're bound to irritate you one way or another, | 0:00:57 | 0:00:59 | |
you can join the debate on Facebook - | 0:00:59 | 0:01:01 | |
we're now on Facebook - or Twitter. Our hashtag, #bbcqt. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:05 | |
You can follow us @BBCQuestionTime. And you can like us, if you like. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:10 | |
Text comments to 83981 and press the red button to see | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
what others are saying. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:14 | |
I don't know what that first bit means, but there we are. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
Let's have our first question from Daniel Newton, please. Daniel Newton. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:20 | |
What action should be taken against Russia, | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
following the conclusion of the Litvinenko Inquiry? | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
Yes, sir Robert Owen on the Inquiry in the Litvinenko death | 0:01:25 | 0:01:29 | |
said it was probably approved by President Putin. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
What action should be taken? Theresa Villiers. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:34 | |
Well, the ambassador from Russia is being summoned into | 0:01:34 | 0:01:38 | |
the Foreign Office so that the government can express | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
its very grave concern about the tragedy which has occurred. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
It is completely unacceptable | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
for a citizen to be murdered in our country at the behest | 0:01:47 | 0:01:52 | |
of a foreign intelligence service. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
And in our Strategic Defence and Security Review | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
we highlighted the increasing security threat | 0:01:58 | 0:02:00 | |
posed by Russia, and this is a reminder to us all | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
of the importance of maintaining our security, | 0:02:03 | 0:02:06 | |
maintaining our defences, funding our police services | 0:02:06 | 0:02:10 | |
and ensuring that our intelligence services have all | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
the capacities that they need to combat espionage | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
and security threats from places like Russia. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
What action should be taken, was the question. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
I think we need to maintain the sanctions which we've | 0:02:22 | 0:02:24 | |
already applied to Russia as a result of their aggressive | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
actions in Ukraine, and no doubt the government will be reflecting | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
over the following days as to whether | 0:02:30 | 0:02:32 | |
further action needs to be taken. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:34 | |
But we are gravely concerned by what has happened. | 0:02:34 | 0:02:37 | |
Labour's Shadow Home Secretary Andy Burnham, Peter Hain, said, | 0:02:37 | 0:02:41 | |
"There can be no sense of the government pulling their punches | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
"because of wider diplomatic considerations." | 0:02:44 | 0:02:46 | |
He seemed to be slightly critical of the government's response. Are you? | 0:02:46 | 0:02:49 | |
He was. I mean, the point that I think is really important here | 0:02:49 | 0:02:54 | |
is that the agents concerned clearly, it seems from the report, | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
acting on Putin's orders, and that's really serious. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:02 | |
The president of one of the most powerful nations in the world | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
ordering an extra-judicial murder on our soil - that's really serious, | 0:03:05 | 0:03:10 | |
and I think those agents who were clearly involved, | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
according to the report, there should be sanctions on them, | 0:03:13 | 0:03:17 | |
the European common arrest warrant should operate on them, | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
they should not be allowed to travel within Europe without | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
being arrested and brought to justice in Britain. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
So that's one thing that I think should be done right away. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:29 | |
They have applied for extradition, haven't they, these two? | 0:03:29 | 0:03:32 | |
They have, yes, but there should be a travel ban on them | 0:03:32 | 0:03:35 | |
like has been applied to other dubious characters with | 0:03:35 | 0:03:39 | |
criminal intent around the world. | 0:03:39 | 0:03:41 | |
But what about "probably approved by President Putin"? | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
Is there anything that can be done about that? | 0:03:44 | 0:03:45 | |
Should there be any sanctions taken against Russia on a bigger scale? | 0:03:45 | 0:03:49 | |
This is a man elected president of his country. | 0:03:49 | 0:03:51 | |
There are, as Theresa said, already sanctions. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
The difficulty, frankly, is this - | 0:03:54 | 0:03:56 | |
Russia at the moment is really important if we're going to get | 0:03:56 | 0:04:00 | |
a solution to the Syrian crisis. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:02 | |
So you need to engage with the Russians. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:06 | |
There's no point in playing games over this, | 0:04:06 | 0:04:08 | |
they're important around other crises, | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
including the whole problem of Isil and Daesh international terrorism. | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
So I don't think, sort of, we're putting them | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
into cold storage is the right answer, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
but making it absolutely clear, as the government has done | 0:04:22 | 0:04:25 | |
and as Parliament has done, it's not acceptable | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
and applying those particular punitive sanctions | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
against those two very dangerous men... | 0:04:31 | 0:04:34 | |
This was radioactive poisoning | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
-in the middle of London. -Grainne Maguire. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
Yeah, I just think it's terrifying. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:46 | |
I just think Putin is a nasty piece of work, you know, | 0:04:46 | 0:04:51 | |
him propping up Assad's regime, invading Ukraine to...for a big push | 0:04:51 | 0:04:56 | |
so he can be more popular at home, his human rights records, | 0:04:56 | 0:04:59 | |
the way he's cutting back on free speech in Russia... | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
I just think it's absolutely terrifying. | 0:05:02 | 0:05:05 | |
Anybody got views here? Yes, you, sir, in the front. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
And you, yes, yes, sir. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:10 | |
I think it's interesting for a British government to criticise | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
Litvinenko considering the amount of incidents of state-sponsored | 0:05:13 | 0:05:16 | |
killing there were in Northern Ireland throughout the Troubles. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
A lot of collusion went on there through investigations. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
It seems a bit hypocritical. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:23 | |
Nigel Dodds, do you agree with him? | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
Well, I don't agree at all because, I mean, it's entirely... | 0:05:25 | 0:05:28 | |
It's an entirely spurious argument to make | 0:05:28 | 0:05:30 | |
and I think it's one that actually harks back to the past | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
and doesn't deal with the issue that's actually in front of us, | 0:05:33 | 0:05:36 | |
which is a serious issue and deserves to be treated seriously, | 0:05:36 | 0:05:38 | |
not in the sort of way that's just been raised. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:40 | |
I think that this issue is an extremely difficult one | 0:05:40 | 0:05:45 | |
for the UK Government because of the importance of Russia | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
in terms of Syria and all the rest of it. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:50 | |
I have to say, I've been immensely impressed with Marina Litvinenko | 0:05:50 | 0:05:55 | |
and her son Anatoly, who have acted with extreme dignity | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
and persevered the quest for justice | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
against the Russian state | 0:06:02 | 0:06:04 | |
and against the agents who carried out this appalling crime. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
In my view, I think Putin is a terrible despot. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:12 | |
He is someone, remember, | 0:06:12 | 0:06:13 | |
who supplied the means by which the Dutch airliner was | 0:06:13 | 0:06:17 | |
shot down over Ukraine, which murdered innocent men, | 0:06:17 | 0:06:21 | |
women and children, babies included. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:23 | |
Action does need to be taken, | 0:06:23 | 0:06:25 | |
visa restrictions have been applied, | 0:06:25 | 0:06:27 | |
there are moves to withdraw visas. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:30 | |
The Majewski case, which has been the law that has been | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
applied in America, needs to be looked at. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:35 | |
I know the British Government are saying | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
we don't need to do that because we already have | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
restrictions in terms of movement, freezing of assets, | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
but again, I think more could be done as to how we punish individuals | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
right at the top of the regime as well as the people who | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
carried out these actions. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:49 | |
I mean, Marina wants a travel ban on Putin. | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
Would you impose a travel ban on the president of Russia? | 0:06:52 | 0:06:55 | |
I know he's a head of state and they're special and particular | 0:06:55 | 0:06:57 | |
rules are applied in movement of heads of state, which is difficult, | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
but I think that, just as was done in relation to Robert Mugabe, | 0:07:00 | 0:07:04 | |
for instance, in terms of moving about, | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
some differential needs to be applied to the Russian president | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
compared to other heads of state to make it clear | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
that his actions in Crimea, in the Ukraine, | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
blowing up civilian aircraft, | 0:07:16 | 0:07:19 | |
carrying out murders on the streets of London and everything that | 0:07:19 | 0:07:21 | |
he's doing at home, that this will not be tolerated. | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
Because he is a bully. You can't appease bullies, you need to | 0:07:24 | 0:07:27 | |
take them on and confront them with the consequences of their actions. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:31 | |
All right. You, sir. | 0:07:31 | 0:07:32 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:32 | 0:07:34 | |
To back this up, surely we need global support to show the Russians | 0:07:37 | 0:07:41 | |
that they've gone too far | 0:07:41 | 0:07:43 | |
and that they cannot proceed with some action like this again? | 0:07:43 | 0:07:48 | |
Declan Kearney. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:49 | |
I do think it's very important that we don't | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
step into the territory of trading off, erm... | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
..tragedies and crimes like this | 0:08:00 | 0:08:02 | |
against wider geopolitical interests. | 0:08:02 | 0:08:04 | |
There are fundamentally undemocratic practices | 0:08:07 | 0:08:11 | |
which characterise the Russian state, | 0:08:11 | 0:08:15 | |
and clearly there are rogue actions | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
and rogue actors who have apparently acted at the behest | 0:08:18 | 0:08:22 | |
of the political interests of the Russian state. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
And we live in a fractured world, of course, | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
and we're looking at global political conflict. | 0:08:29 | 0:08:33 | |
But while we should rightly object and criticise | 0:08:33 | 0:08:38 | |
and condemn what appears to be evidenced in this particular case, | 0:08:38 | 0:08:43 | |
neither do I think that we should lose sight | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
of the equivalence of the actions of other Western | 0:08:46 | 0:08:51 | |
and other Asian states in relation to | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
their activities in the Middle East. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:57 | |
I think we need to be very careful before we draw out some | 0:08:57 | 0:09:01 | |
type of moral hierarchy in terms of stating that this action, | 0:09:01 | 0:09:07 | |
this crime is bad and that the use of drone strikes | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
killing and murdering men, women and children | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
in Syria is in some way acceptable and beyond criticism. | 0:09:14 | 0:09:20 | |
So you draw no distinction... | 0:09:20 | 0:09:22 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:09:22 | 0:09:24 | |
You draw no distinction between the British Government allowing | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
people to be murdered on the streets of London | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
and the government policy agreed by the House of Commons about Syria? | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
Oh, I think that there is a requirement here | 0:09:35 | 0:09:39 | |
for the strongest diplomatic action to be taken. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
There is a need for sanctions. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:44 | |
By the same token, | 0:09:44 | 0:09:46 | |
let's understand that the conflict in the Middle East | 0:09:46 | 0:09:50 | |
is not going to be addressed unless there is demilitarisation, | 0:09:50 | 0:09:54 | |
unless we move to a ceasefire and unless political | 0:09:54 | 0:09:57 | |
and diplomatic solutions are introduced and applied. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:00 | |
OK. I'll take one more point then we'll go onto the next question. Yes. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:05 | |
When we talk about playing games, | 0:10:05 | 0:10:07 | |
do we not realise that Russia is playing games with us? | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
Because they are still in Ukraine, still in Crimea. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:14 | |
Their economy is only hurting | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
because of the oil price reductions because of Saudi Arabia, | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
nothing to do with the Americans or Britain or anybody else. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:22 | |
And what's your view about the murder? | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
There should be... Putin should be not allowed to travel, | 0:10:26 | 0:10:29 | |
there should be something directly done against him. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:33 | |
-Like against Mugabe, as...? -Absolutely. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
Without excusing this at all - you heard what I said - | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
if you don't allow Putin to travel, | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
say it gets to the point with a summit in Vienna | 0:10:44 | 0:10:47 | |
on solving the Syrian crisis, | 0:10:47 | 0:10:49 | |
which has triggered this massive upflow of refugees desperate | 0:10:49 | 0:10:53 | |
to get away from the war, | 0:10:53 | 0:10:55 | |
if it involves Putin travelling to Vienna to help solve that problem, | 0:10:55 | 0:10:59 | |
which he's key to, I think that should be allowed. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:01 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:11:01 | 0:11:04 | |
The thing about this kind of sanctions | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
is you have to be smart about it. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:08 | |
You stop him from doing the things he likes doing, you don't stop | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
him from things that it's important that he does in terms of that. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
But we've also to remember in Syria that Russia is bombing mainly | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
rebel forces that are trying to bring down Assad. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
I mean, we talk about Russian help in terms of Syria | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
and it is important - they need to be round the table. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
But remember, they are busy attacking anti-Assad forces, | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
not so much Isis and Isil, | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
-which is what we want to see destroyed in Syria. -OK, let's go on. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:36 | |
I'm not sure what it is that he likes doing except riding | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
bare-chested on horses and... | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
There's plenty of photographs of him... | 0:11:41 | 0:11:43 | |
But he can do all that in Russia. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
All right, let me go on to another question. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:47 | |
Just before we do, where are we going to be next week? | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
Stamford, in Lincolnshire. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:51 | |
And after that, Bradford in West Yorkshire. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
So come and join Question Time, | 0:11:54 | 0:11:56 | |
Stamford in Lincolnshire next week, | 0:11:56 | 0:11:58 | |
Bradford in Yorkshire the week after. | 0:11:58 | 0:11:59 | |
There's the address to apply and I'll give it, as ever, at the end. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
Let's have a question from Pete Hodson, please. Pete Hodson. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:06 | |
Isn't it about time Northern Ireland moved with the times | 0:12:06 | 0:12:08 | |
and legalised gay marriage? | 0:12:08 | 0:12:10 | |
Isn't it about time Northern Ireland moved with the times? | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:13 | 0:12:15 | |
Well, all right. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:19 | |
APPLAUSE CONTINUES | 0:12:19 | 0:12:21 | |
Hang on, hang on, hang on! | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
If you all applaud him, we'll have nothing to discuss, | 0:12:25 | 0:12:27 | |
if you all agree with him! | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
For our audiences outside Northern Ireland, | 0:12:30 | 0:12:32 | |
Northern Ireland still does not legalise gay marriage, | 0:12:32 | 0:12:35 | |
unlike the rest of the United Kingdom. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:36 | |
And his question is, isn't it about time Northern Ireland | 0:12:36 | 0:12:39 | |
moved with the times? Grainne Maguire. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:41 | |
Erm, I just can't believe we're still having this discussion. | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
Yesterday in Westminster, Tory MPs | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
were discussing their use of poppers, | 0:12:47 | 0:12:49 | |
yet in Northern Ireland, we still have state-sanctioned homophobia. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:55 | |
I think it's absolutely crazy. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
Now, I am a proud Irish person but I have to think, if you're | 0:13:03 | 0:13:07 | |
being out-liberalled by the Republic of Ireland on a social issue, | 0:13:07 | 0:13:11 | |
you've got something to worry about. | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
I mean, this is not what you want Northern Ireland to be famous for. | 0:13:14 | 0:13:17 | |
You don't want to say, "Visit Northern Ireland, we've got | 0:13:17 | 0:13:20 | |
"Titanic, we've got amazing, you know, art and culture and we also... | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
"We're horrible to gay people." | 0:13:24 | 0:13:26 | |
Like, this is ridiculous. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:13:28 | 0:13:30 | |
Nigel Dodds. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:31 | |
Cos it was your party that stopped this happening, wasn't it? | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
Well, along with others, | 0:13:34 | 0:13:36 | |
and not just on one side of the community either. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:38 | |
But this is a very serous issue that needs to be treated with respect. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:42 | |
And I would be appalled at homophobia, I think it's wrong | 0:13:42 | 0:13:45 | |
that anyone should describe being against | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
the redefinition of marriage, | 0:13:47 | 0:13:49 | |
but being for the equal treatment of everybody | 0:13:49 | 0:13:51 | |
and treating everybody with respect | 0:13:51 | 0:13:53 | |
as some kind of homophobia. It isn't. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:56 | |
The question is, there are many people in Northern Ireland society | 0:13:56 | 0:13:59 | |
on both sides of the community - | 0:13:59 | 0:14:00 | |
Roman Catholic and Protestant, Unionist and Nationalist | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
and without any definition at all - | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
who hold sincerely held beliefs on this issue. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
Many people believe marriage should be redefined, others do not. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:13 | |
It is a devolved matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
The Assembly will make its decision according to the rules | 0:14:16 | 0:14:18 | |
under which the Assembly was set up | 0:14:18 | 0:14:20 | |
and supported by both the Conservative Party | 0:14:20 | 0:14:23 | |
and the Labour Party and the other parties that signed up | 0:14:23 | 0:14:26 | |
to the Belfast Agreement and the St Andrews Agreement, | 0:14:26 | 0:14:29 | |
and they will make their choice on that matter. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:31 | |
But the fundamental thing is this - that Northern Ireland is moving | 0:14:31 | 0:14:35 | |
forward and it is famous for a lot of things. | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
It is famous for this area in which we sit tonight, the Titanic area. | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
Harland & Wolff, great manufactory. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
It's famous for its tourist attractions, | 0:14:45 | 0:14:47 | |
the Giant's Causeway, for its golfers... | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
Sorry, what's this got to do with legalising gay marriage? | 0:14:49 | 0:14:52 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:14:52 | 0:14:55 | |
-BOOING -No, no, what I'm saying is... | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
Stick with the question. | 0:14:58 | 0:14:59 | |
Sometimes the BBC and others can get fixated on this issue. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:03 | |
The last time we were here, we were having this debate. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
Most people in Northern Ireland are wanting to get on with the peace | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
process, building the economy, moving Northern Ireland forward, | 0:15:09 | 0:15:13 | |
it's not the day-to-day subject that people talk about. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:17 | |
-What we need to do... -If you're straight! If you're gay, it is. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
What we need to do is allow the Northern Ireland Assembly under | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
the rules in which it was set up, hard-fought, hard-won, | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
hard-negotiated, to make the decision on behalf of the people | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
of Northern Ireland in a democratic way. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:32 | |
But people need to treat these arguments with respect and everybody | 0:15:32 | 0:15:36 | |
needs to be treated without discrimination | 0:15:36 | 0:15:38 | |
and that's the way in which we should deal with this issue. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
Let's deal with it like that then. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:43 | |
The woman with the spectacles on in the third row? | 0:15:43 | 0:15:47 | |
MAN SPEAKS No, the woman. ..Yeah, you. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
You talk about your deeply-seated beliefs shaping the | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
policies that you make. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:58 | |
There are actually courts who've told you time and time again | 0:15:58 | 0:16:02 | |
that this is against human rights law what you are doing | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
in this country. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
No, no, no. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:08 | |
And you continually refuse to bring | 0:16:08 | 0:16:10 | |
it into law to bring us into line with the rest of the UK. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
Don't answer yet, I'll give you a chance to come back. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
The man in the second row from the back? | 0:16:15 | 0:16:18 | |
Opinion polls in Northern Ireland consistently show that a majority | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
of the public support gay marriage so why not put the issue | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
to a referendum like was done in the Republic? | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
Do you agree with that, the man up there? | 0:16:28 | 0:16:30 | |
APPLAUSE Is that your view? | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
It's the abuse of the petition of concern that the DUP | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
use when it's voted on, so the last time it was voted for, | 0:16:36 | 0:16:40 | |
and then they used a petition of concern | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
so it wouldn't be implemented. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:45 | |
I think that's an abuse of the Good Friday Agreement, | 0:16:45 | 0:16:49 | |
to abuse that process. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:51 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:16:51 | 0:16:53 | |
Hold on. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:55 | |
I'll bring you back in. Declan Kearney. | 0:16:55 | 0:16:58 | |
One of the most liberating and democratic processes that has | 0:16:58 | 0:17:03 | |
taken place on this island in recent years was last year | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
in the 26 counties when popular opinion was engaged and mobilised | 0:17:07 | 0:17:12 | |
around the issue of equal marriage and | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
with a resounding majority, the law was changed | 0:17:14 | 0:17:17 | |
in the south of Ireland and that was a terrific landmark | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
decision for equality and indeed, as the lady in the audience | 0:17:21 | 0:17:27 | |
suggested, for human rights. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:28 | |
So yes, in answer to the question, it is time that the North of | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
Ireland moved on. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:34 | |
This is an issue of equality but it's also an issue of love. | 0:17:34 | 0:17:37 | |
Because gay people are our brothers, are our sisters, they're our | 0:17:37 | 0:17:42 | |
relations, members of our family and they live in our communities. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
And we owe it to them to ensure that they have the same rights | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
as other citizens in our society are entitled to enjoy. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:53 | |
I agree that on the last occasion... Sinn Fein's brought forward a motion | 0:17:53 | 0:17:57 | |
on five different occasions to the assembly with a view | 0:17:57 | 0:18:00 | |
to changing the law here in the north. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:02 | |
The difference on the last occasion was that a majority did | 0:18:02 | 0:18:07 | |
indeed vote in favour of change. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
Whilst the petition of concern was used by Nigel's party to... | 0:18:09 | 0:18:14 | |
You mustn't lose us in the complicated | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
politics of the Assembly. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
Are you saying a majority voted in favour? | 0:18:19 | 0:18:21 | |
Yes, and the technical veto was used to prohibit the implementation. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
The veto which is part of the Northern Ireland agreement, | 0:18:25 | 0:18:29 | |
is that correct? | 0:18:29 | 0:18:30 | |
-Yes. -So it's part of the constitution. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:32 | |
It's been set in place for particular purposes and not to be | 0:18:32 | 0:18:36 | |
abused in order to hold backs human rights, equality and inclusion. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:40 | |
OK. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:42 | |
Theresa Villiers. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:43 | |
-That's what... -All right, Declan, hold on. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
That is what our gay brothers and sisters deserve | 0:18:46 | 0:18:48 | |
in Northern Ireland today. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:49 | |
Theresa Villiers, do you agree with that assessment? | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
I'm a supporter of equal marriage, I voted for it. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
I fully respect Nigel's point of view. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:57 | |
I know this is a sensitive issue. | 0:18:57 | 0:18:59 | |
But in my view, marriage is a great institution and it would be great | 0:18:59 | 0:19:04 | |
to expand access to that to the gay community in Northern Ireland. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:08 | |
It's right that this is a decision made in Northern Ireland | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
by the people elected in Northern Ireland, but I hope that | 0:19:11 | 0:19:14 | |
-one day equal marriage will come to Northern Ireland. -OK. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
Does anybody here agree with Nigel Dodd's point | 0:19:20 | 0:19:23 | |
of view, because I would like to hear from them? | 0:19:23 | 0:19:26 | |
No? | 0:19:26 | 0:19:28 | |
Nobody? Yes. Thank you. Let's hear your view. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:31 | |
I may be the only one here tonight that does have that opinion, | 0:19:31 | 0:19:34 | |
but I'm aware that marriage was defined by God as one man | 0:19:34 | 0:19:40 | |
and one woman, and we have civil partnerships, | 0:19:40 | 0:19:44 | |
so love in that same-sex arrangement | 0:19:44 | 0:19:47 | |
is in this country already, | 0:19:47 | 0:19:48 | |
we don't need to redefine marriage, in my opinion.. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
Didn't they used to have polygamy in the Bible as well? | 0:19:51 | 0:19:55 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:55 | 0:19:56 | |
What bit of the Bible are you picking? | 0:19:56 | 0:19:59 | |
Somebody else had their hand up in support | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
of that view. | 0:20:02 | 0:20:04 | |
Somebody in a green shirt somewhere. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:06 | |
Was it you? | 0:20:06 | 0:20:08 | |
What is your view? | 0:20:08 | 0:20:10 | |
It's very simple - the system in Northern Ireland lets | 0:20:10 | 0:20:15 | |
two parties put a veto on whatever they like whenever they like. | 0:20:15 | 0:20:21 | |
If they change that system and let the parties have free votes, | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
then the MPs can represent the people. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:32 | |
-If it was a simple majority. -Yes. Get rid of the veto. -Peter Hain? | 0:20:32 | 0:20:36 | |
Well, I was proud to be leader of the Commons at the time | 0:20:36 | 0:20:40 | |
when the Labour Government - and I ensured it was on our | 0:20:40 | 0:20:43 | |
legislative agenda and managed it through Parliament - | 0:20:43 | 0:20:45 | |
the Labour Government legislated for civil partnerships. | 0:20:45 | 0:20:48 | |
That was a breakthrough. | 0:20:48 | 0:20:49 | |
I was also proud that the first civil partnerships in the UK | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
was two women in Belfast, I think Belfast City Hall. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:58 | |
Wasn't that an amazing statement for the new Northern Ireland to make? | 0:20:58 | 0:21:02 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:21:02 | 0:21:03 | |
So I'm very sad that now Northern Ireland is the only part | 0:21:03 | 0:21:08 | |
of the UK where equal marriage does not apply. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:13 | |
I think this is a matter of equal opportunities and that everybody | 0:21:13 | 0:21:18 | |
who wants to get married should be able to get married, and the partner | 0:21:18 | 0:21:22 | |
of their choice should be their choice, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
not the politicians' choice. | 0:21:24 | 0:21:25 | |
The woman there in black? You. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:34 | |
Fire away. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:35 | |
Love's love, regardless of gender. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:37 | |
I'm an atheist myself and I don't believe that anybody's religious | 0:21:37 | 0:21:41 | |
convictions should determine who I marry. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:43 | |
I don't want to get married in a chapel or a church, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:47 | |
I just want to have a ceremony with my partner that is called | 0:21:47 | 0:21:51 | |
marriage so it gives me the same rights as any other married couple. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
That's all that we want. | 0:21:55 | 0:21:56 | |
A civil partnership is not enough? | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
It doesn't give 100% the same rights as marriage does. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
There are some slight differences in terms of pensions and things | 0:22:02 | 0:22:07 | |
like that and what can be claimed | 0:22:07 | 0:22:08 | |
if something happens to your partner. | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
There are some slight restrictions on travel as well. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:13 | |
Some companies - some countries, apologies - | 0:22:13 | 0:22:17 | |
that have equal marriage, | 0:22:17 | 0:22:19 | |
they don't recognise civil partnerships, | 0:22:19 | 0:22:23 | |
so if we are in that country, we are not recognised as a couple. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
A point from you, sir? | 0:22:27 | 0:22:29 | |
Yes. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:32 | |
Eileen Foster recently said gay marriage was not at | 0:22:32 | 0:22:36 | |
the top of the pile. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:37 | |
Eileen Foster being the new leader of the DUP? | 0:22:37 | 0:22:41 | |
-Yes. -The First Minister as well. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:43 | |
Yes. Exactly. The First Minister for this country. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
Have you seen one person in this audience today in | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
support of your views? | 0:22:49 | 0:22:51 | |
How can you continue to | 0:22:51 | 0:22:53 | |
call yourself the Democratic Unionist Party if... | 0:22:53 | 0:22:55 | |
APPLAUSE AND CHEERING | 0:22:55 | 0:23:00 | |
-Hold on. -I would say probably more than one | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
person in the audience supports Nigel Dodds. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:06 | |
The point is, we have a democracy in Northern Ireland, | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
we fought hard for assembly, it's for the Assembly | 0:23:10 | 0:23:12 | |
to make that decision. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:13 | |
The lady made the point about the courts. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:15 | |
The courts passed the buck back to the Assembly. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:17 | |
Simple as that. | 0:23:17 | 0:23:19 | |
The Assembly needs to debate the issue and make a decision. | 0:23:19 | 0:23:21 | |
Look, in every vote in the Northern Ireland Assembly | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
in the last five or four were against it by majority. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
It's very on a knife edge. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
People raise this issue of petition of concern. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
For viewers not familiar with the constitutional set-up here, | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
it means a majority of unionists, as well as a majority of | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
nationalists have to agree something. That's a good thing. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:39 | |
Frankly, Sinn Fein have vetoed things like National Crime Agency, | 0:23:39 | 0:23:43 | |
things that would help fight crime, so it's not just one way. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:48 | |
But if people want to remove the petition of concern, | 0:23:48 | 0:23:50 | |
the gentleman here talked about the free vote and MPs | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
deciding, I'm happy for the Assembly to go to a majority vote system | 0:23:53 | 0:23:58 | |
but I'm not sure everybody else around this table would be. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
Majority rule in relation to this issue, it would be a majority vote | 0:24:01 | 0:24:07 | |
on all the other issues that affect Northern Ireland so people need | 0:24:07 | 0:24:10 | |
to think very, very carefully on these issues before | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
they go down that route. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:14 | |
It's got to be a constitutional settlement which is fair | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
to all of our citizens and treats everybody with respect. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:21 | |
I am totally opposed and will fight tooth and nail and have all my life | 0:24:21 | 0:24:26 | |
for the rights of people to be treated equally | 0:24:26 | 0:24:28 | |
without discrimination and against... | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
-HECKLING -..any kind of homophobia or anything. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:36 | |
The fact that some people in this audience may not agree | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
with that doesn't make any difference. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:44 | |
I think the point's been made. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:46 | |
Another question now. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:47 | |
We have got a lot of questions to get through. | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
I want to go on to the next one from Duncan Putt, please? | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
What consequences would the Brexit have for the UK? | 0:24:56 | 0:25:01 | |
What consequences would a British exit from the EU | 0:25:01 | 0:25:05 | |
have for the UK? | 0:25:05 | 0:25:06 | |
Declan Kearney? | 0:25:07 | 0:25:09 | |
I think it would be very negative. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:12 | |
It would be a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:18 | |
But my particular concern would be for the implications that a decision | 0:25:18 | 0:25:23 | |
to go for Brexit would have for the North of Ireland. | 0:25:23 | 0:25:27 | |
It would have profound implications for economic growth, | 0:25:27 | 0:25:32 | |
prosperity here in the North. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:34 | |
We'd see an end to the type of European funding that's been | 0:25:34 | 0:25:39 | |
so essential to community economic regeneration here in the North | 0:25:39 | 0:25:43 | |
in relation to infrastructure and development. | 0:25:43 | 0:25:46 | |
Our farming community's highly dependent upon CAP payments | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
and the fisheries industry is increasingly dependent | 0:25:49 | 0:25:52 | |
upon assistance from Europe. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:54 | |
But in addition to that, I think it would represent a huge | 0:25:54 | 0:25:57 | |
setback for the political process itself because the decision to see | 0:25:57 | 0:26:02 | |
Brexit will inevitably harden partition, it will thwart | 0:26:02 | 0:26:05 | |
cross-border cooperation and, in that sense, it's a huge negative | 0:26:05 | 0:26:09 | |
for all citizens here, for the business and employers' | 0:26:09 | 0:26:13 | |
constituencies within our society, for the farming community | 0:26:13 | 0:26:15 | |
and for workers. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:17 | |
While I view the European Union as an institution with huge | 0:26:17 | 0:26:22 | |
imperfections which requires enormous democratisation | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
and Sinn Fein's emphasis would be on seeing the increasing primacy | 0:26:26 | 0:26:31 | |
of a social Europe, nevertheless it's an arena essential for ensuring | 0:26:31 | 0:26:36 | |
that regulations and directives are brought forward which entrench | 0:26:36 | 0:26:40 | |
human rights, democratic rights that are essential to economic growth | 0:26:40 | 0:26:44 | |
and prosperity and in the case of our own state here in the North | 0:26:44 | 0:26:50 | |
of Ireland, has played a hugely influential, | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
important role in the peace process. | 0:26:53 | 0:26:54 | |
Do you agree with all of that, Theresa Villiers? | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:26:58 | 0:26:59 | |
Well, I agree with what the Prime Minister's said in the past | 0:26:59 | 0:27:04 | |
and I think he reiterated it today that of course the UK | 0:27:04 | 0:27:07 | |
could be a success outside the European Union. | 0:27:07 | 0:27:09 | |
The question is, are we better off outside or inside the European Union | 0:27:09 | 0:27:13 | |
and that will really depend on the outcome of the | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
very important negotiations that the Prime Minister's conducting | 0:27:17 | 0:27:19 | |
at the moment and we hope will culminate in February. | 0:27:19 | 0:27:22 | |
This is a crucial question and I'm proud of the fact that it's | 0:27:22 | 0:27:26 | |
a Conservative Government giving the people of the United Kingdom | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
the choice to vote on our relationship with Europe. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:32 | |
Have you decided how you'll vote? | 0:27:32 | 0:27:34 | |
We all need to wait... | 0:27:34 | 0:27:36 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:27:36 | 0:27:38 | |
..the outcome of the negotiation. | 0:27:38 | 0:27:40 | |
That is going to be crucial. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:41 | |
It depends whether the other member states of the European Union listen | 0:27:41 | 0:27:45 | |
to the reasonable arguments that the Prime Minister is putting | 0:27:45 | 0:27:49 | |
to them about the huge need for change in the European Union. | 0:27:49 | 0:27:53 | |
So staying in on the terms we are at the moment, | 0:27:53 | 0:27:57 | |
as Chris Grayling said, would be a disaster in your view also, | 0:27:57 | 0:28:01 | |
would it? If nothing is brought back, you will be voting get out? | 0:28:01 | 0:28:03 | |
Certainly no-one is happy with the status quo, | 0:28:03 | 0:28:05 | |
the Prime Minister isn't and the Government isn't. | 0:28:05 | 0:28:08 | |
Frankly many people across this country would agree | 0:28:08 | 0:28:11 | |
that the European Union needs to change and become more competitive, | 0:28:11 | 0:28:15 | |
it needs to be fairer to countries out of the eurozone. | 0:28:15 | 0:28:17 | |
We don't know what he is going to come back with, | 0:28:17 | 0:28:19 | |
but if he comes back with nothing, you will be voting to leave? | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
-The Government will take a view... -And you... ? | 0:28:23 | 0:28:26 | |
We need to wait and see what the outcome of the negotiation | 0:28:26 | 0:28:30 | |
is and then the reality is that every man and woman in this | 0:28:30 | 0:28:33 | |
country has the choice, it doesn't really matter | 0:28:33 | 0:28:35 | |
what members of the Government think, the... | 0:28:35 | 0:28:37 | |
It quite matters what the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland | 0:28:37 | 0:28:40 | |
-thinks, doesn't it? -I think the... | 0:28:40 | 0:28:43 | |
When you have had this case made by Sinn Fein | 0:28:43 | 0:28:45 | |
how vital it is for Northern Ireland to stay in? | 0:28:45 | 0:28:47 | |
The important thing is that the people of this country | 0:28:47 | 0:28:49 | |
will get the right to vote. | 0:28:49 | 0:28:51 | |
You've said that. | 0:28:51 | 0:28:53 | |
Do you accept the interests of the people in Northern Ireland | 0:28:53 | 0:28:57 | |
are better served by staying in Europe or not? | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
We need to await the outcome of the negotiation. | 0:28:59 | 0:29:02 | |
LAUGHTER AND GROANS | 0:29:02 | 0:29:03 | |
The reality is, you know, the position of Northern Ireland | 0:29:03 | 0:29:07 | |
is something, of course, which people should and will, | 0:29:07 | 0:29:09 | |
I'm sure, reflect on in choosing which way they are going to vote. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:13 | |
The woman with her hand up? | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
Yes, it's you. The microphone over your head. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:17 | |
As a student, I'm not... | 0:29:17 | 0:29:23 | |
I can't vote. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:25 | |
You said every person will have the right to vote. | 0:29:25 | 0:29:29 | |
I'm only 17 and if the vote happens before my 18th birthday, | 0:29:29 | 0:29:34 | |
I will not have a say in that and I do not think | 0:29:34 | 0:29:37 | |
that is right at all. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:39 | |
What would your say be? | 0:29:39 | 0:29:41 | |
I would vote to stay. | 0:29:41 | 0:29:42 | |
And you, sir, there? | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
Yes, you. | 0:29:45 | 0:29:47 | |
I object strongly to a bunch of unelected bureaucrats sitting | 0:29:47 | 0:29:53 | |
in Brussels telling me what I can do in my own country. | 0:29:53 | 0:30:01 | |
I believe the EU needs us a lot more than we need them. | 0:30:01 | 0:30:06 | |
We have gone on our own before, we can do so again. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:10 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:30:10 | 0:30:12 | |
Would your vote change depending on what David Cameron | 0:30:12 | 0:30:16 | |
brought back from Europe or not? | 0:30:16 | 0:30:18 | |
David Cameron would need to bring a great deal back for me to become | 0:30:18 | 0:30:22 | |
convinced we are better off in Europe. | 0:30:22 | 0:30:24 | |
What would he have to bring back? | 0:30:24 | 0:30:26 | |
Well, he'd have to come back having changed human rights legislation, | 0:30:26 | 0:30:29 | |
European courts, the amount of contributions we put | 0:30:29 | 0:30:33 | |
into Europe every year. I firmly believe a lot of that money | 0:30:33 | 0:30:37 | |
would be better spent stimulating growth in our own country. | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
Sounds like Brexit for you. | 0:30:44 | 0:30:47 | |
Peter Hain? | 0:30:47 | 0:30:48 | |
-Do you want to answer his point? -Absolutely. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
I will be keen to do so. | 0:30:51 | 0:30:53 | |
First of all there's an elected European Parliament. | 0:30:53 | 0:30:57 | |
Northern Ireland sends European MPs. | 0:30:57 | 0:30:59 | |
It's very powerful. | 0:30:59 | 0:31:01 | |
It's not a question of unelected bureaucrats sitting in Brussels - | 0:31:01 | 0:31:05 | |
they have significant influence. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:06 | |
We have a commissioner in Brussels as well, | 0:31:06 | 0:31:10 | |
British Commissioner, very significant influence. | 0:31:10 | 0:31:13 | |
As a Government, we have a veto in the European Council on a whole | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
series of issues. | 0:31:17 | 0:31:18 | |
I'm afraid you're factually wrong. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:20 | |
Can I just express astonishment that Theresa, | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, | 0:31:23 | 0:31:26 | |
doesn't have a view on whether or not Northern Ireland | 0:31:26 | 0:31:29 | |
would be better off outside the European Union? | 0:31:29 | 0:31:31 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:31:31 | 0:31:33 | |
I think Britain leaving Europe would have very serious implications | 0:31:36 | 0:31:44 | |
for the peace process. | 0:31:44 | 0:31:46 | |
Borders would have to go up between the two parts of the island | 0:31:46 | 0:31:50 | |
of Ireland, which are now in a happier state | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
than we have seen for centuries. | 0:31:53 | 0:31:55 | |
I also think it would be catastrophic for Britain. | 0:31:55 | 0:31:58 | |
You said that they need us more than we need them. | 0:31:58 | 0:32:01 | |
Half our trade is with the European Union. | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
Only 10% of their trade is with us. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:07 | |
Jobs, investment, prosperity, vital to keep us within Europe. | 0:32:07 | 0:32:12 | |
Do you want to come back on the point? ..No? OK. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:15 | |
You, sir, here, you on the gangway here. | 0:32:15 | 0:32:18 | |
Yeah, you. | 0:32:18 | 0:32:20 | |
We have already heard Declan and now Peter come up with the standard | 0:32:20 | 0:32:25 | |
scare tactics used to encourage us to stay in Europe. | 0:32:25 | 0:32:28 | |
They've told us we rely on the money and that we rely on it for jobs. | 0:32:28 | 0:32:33 | |
But most of the figures show that is not true. | 0:32:33 | 0:32:36 | |
And frankly, saying, as Declan did, that we need all the money | 0:32:36 | 0:32:40 | |
from Europe to keep Northern Ireland going because we dare not risk | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
what happens otherwise is like saying, "I should stay | 0:32:44 | 0:32:46 | |
"on the dole rather than risk getting a job." | 0:32:46 | 0:32:49 | |
Here's a question for Theresa. | 0:32:49 | 0:32:51 | |
In the event of a Brexit, and in the event that the European | 0:32:51 | 0:32:55 | |
funding that we have become so dependent upon in order to keep | 0:32:55 | 0:32:59 | |
the Northern regional economy afloat, will this Tory Government | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
commit to ensuring that that funding will be replaced? | 0:33:03 | 0:33:06 | |
And that there be an additional increment to our block grant | 0:33:06 | 0:33:10 | |
to replace the European funding we would lose in the event | 0:33:10 | 0:33:13 | |
-of a Brexit? -Do you want to answer? | 0:33:13 | 0:33:15 | |
These are matters which need to be debated during a referendum. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:19 | |
The answer is yes or no. | 0:33:19 | 0:33:21 | |
Clearly, in the event of a Brexit, | 0:33:21 | 0:33:23 | |
there will be a debate about what would be substituted for current | 0:33:23 | 0:33:28 | |
European funding. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:29 | |
But these are matters for debate | 0:33:29 | 0:33:31 | |
so people will make up their minds one way or another. | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
You say it's silly to say, like being on the dole or something. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:40 | |
Do you think there will be a problem for Northern Ireland | 0:33:40 | 0:33:42 | |
if the UK voted out? | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
No, I think it would be a positive thing both for Northern Ireland | 0:33:44 | 0:33:47 | |
and for the rest of the UK. | 0:33:47 | 0:33:49 | |
Positive? | 0:33:49 | 0:33:50 | |
It would bring us... | 0:33:50 | 0:33:52 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:33:52 | 0:33:53 | |
It would bring us increased prosperity | 0:33:53 | 0:33:56 | |
and give us a right over our own border. | 0:33:56 | 0:33:58 | |
Peter says we'd have to put up border controls. | 0:33:58 | 0:34:00 | |
There were never border controls before we joined the European Union | 0:34:00 | 0:34:04 | |
with the Irish Republic and it's not going to change if we leave. | 0:34:04 | 0:34:08 | |
Nigel Dodds. Briefly. | 0:34:08 | 0:34:09 | |
We'd have floods of refugees coming in - | 0:34:09 | 0:34:13 | |
we'd have to have border controls. | 0:34:13 | 0:34:15 | |
We have a common travel area between the Irish Republic | 0:34:15 | 0:34:18 | |
and the rest of the UK. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:20 | |
What about the main point - the substance? | 0:34:20 | 0:34:21 | |
A lot of scaremongering will go on. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
We've heard David Cameron will run Project Fear - scare people. | 0:34:24 | 0:34:27 | |
This business about the difference between Northern Ireland | 0:34:27 | 0:34:30 | |
and the Republic and border controls, we've heard it all before. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:33 | |
We heard it very recently | 0:34:33 | 0:34:35 | |
when the argument was we should all join the euro. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
Do you remember that? | 0:34:38 | 0:34:40 | |
We were told it would be terrible if the UK is not in the euro | 0:34:40 | 0:34:43 | |
and the Republic joins the euro. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:44 | |
There was a currency equivalence between Northern Ireland | 0:34:44 | 0:34:47 | |
and the Republic for decades. | 0:34:47 | 0:34:49 | |
We were told this would be disastrous for trade and business. | 0:34:49 | 0:34:53 | |
What happened? Nothing happened. The reality is that Northern Ireland | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
and the UK can survive quite well, | 0:34:56 | 0:34:57 | |
and many would argue, better outside the EU. | 0:34:57 | 0:35:00 | |
The crucial fact is this - | 0:35:01 | 0:35:04 | |
in terms of grants and all the rest of it, | 0:35:04 | 0:35:07 | |
the UK has paid to Europe since 1973 £450 billion. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:12 | |
Each year we pay in £19 billion and get back £10 billion. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:16 | |
A deficit of £9 billion. | 0:35:16 | 0:35:19 | |
Northern Ireland, to pick up on Declan's point, | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
for every pound out of Europe we pay in £1.50. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:26 | |
This idea that all this money comes as largesse, is given to us, | 0:35:26 | 0:35:29 | |
it's our money coming back at a reduced rate! | 0:35:29 | 0:35:33 | |
-That needs to be addressed... -Will you vote out or to stay in? | 0:35:33 | 0:35:37 | |
As things stand, I would certainly be voting to come out. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:42 | |
I have to see David Cameron coming back from his negotiations | 0:35:42 | 0:35:45 | |
with a very, very clear message that we're going to restore | 0:35:45 | 0:35:49 | |
the sovereignty of the United Kingdom's parliament, | 0:35:49 | 0:35:52 | |
that we will restore control over our borders and we're | 0:35:52 | 0:35:57 | |
going to address the situation where £350 million every week | 0:35:57 | 0:36:02 | |
is transferred from British exchequer which could build | 0:36:02 | 0:36:06 | |
hospitals, help our health waiting lists, create jobs... | 0:36:06 | 0:36:10 | |
In reality, do you expect to get that? | 0:36:10 | 0:36:14 | |
If that is your view, you will be voting out, won't you? | 0:36:14 | 0:36:16 | |
Because none of that seems to be on the agenda. | 0:36:16 | 0:36:18 | |
David Cameron has set the bar very, very low in my opinion. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:22 | |
One of his own MPs stood up in Parliament and described it | 0:36:22 | 0:36:25 | |
as thin gruel. He needs to step up the game. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
He has a lot of leverage. | 0:36:28 | 0:36:29 | |
The European Union does need the United Kingdom. | 0:36:29 | 0:36:33 | |
The trade deficit is in the European Union's benefit. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:37 | |
There is a £60 billion trade deficit. | 0:36:37 | 0:36:39 | |
They need the United Kingdom's business far more than | 0:36:39 | 0:36:43 | |
we need their business. | 0:36:43 | 0:36:45 | |
-That's the reality of it. -You, sir. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:47 | |
I think following up on what Nigel and Declan have both said, | 0:36:47 | 0:36:50 | |
it doesn't make much difference financially or economically | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
whether we are in or out. | 0:36:54 | 0:36:55 | |
What I would like to see is a change of Brussels interfering | 0:36:55 | 0:36:59 | |
with our legal systems and our human rights, as Nigel has talked about. | 0:36:59 | 0:37:03 | |
If we don't get some change in that area, | 0:37:03 | 0:37:05 | |
I would like to see us bailing out. | 0:37:05 | 0:37:07 | |
Grainne Maguire. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:08 | |
I just think, considering what the first topic that we talked | 0:37:10 | 0:37:14 | |
about today, how dangerous Putin is, I think that's more evidence | 0:37:14 | 0:37:18 | |
of anything that we need to work together. | 0:37:18 | 0:37:20 | |
To me, that's an example of why Europe is so important. | 0:37:20 | 0:37:24 | |
We're stronger when Europe works together. | 0:37:24 | 0:37:27 | |
Now, I think I'm on the minority on the panel here. | 0:37:27 | 0:37:30 | |
I really like Europe. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:32 | |
I like the idea of Europe. I think... | 0:37:32 | 0:37:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:37:35 | 0:37:37 | |
I think it's because... | 0:37:37 | 0:37:39 | |
Growing up in Ireland in the '90s, it seemed like really | 0:37:39 | 0:37:43 | |
big and glamorous. | 0:37:43 | 0:37:44 | |
I think I associate it with the Eurovision, | 0:37:44 | 0:37:47 | |
but I see, personally, I view Europe as like a left-wing | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
House of Lords. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:53 | |
So whenever the Tory Government brings in some crazy new plan - | 0:37:53 | 0:37:57 | |
"We are scrapping pedestrian crossings, | 0:37:57 | 0:37:59 | |
"it's slowing business down", | 0:37:59 | 0:38:01 | |
we can look to Angela Merkel and she'll go, "It's fine." | 0:38:01 | 0:38:04 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
No, but I think, to use an analogy, right, Britain is better off | 0:38:07 | 0:38:12 | |
being the bad boy of Europe than leaving. | 0:38:12 | 0:38:15 | |
We are better off being Zayn Malik in One Direction | 0:38:15 | 0:38:19 | |
than being Zayn Malik solo. | 0:38:19 | 0:38:21 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:38:21 | 0:38:24 | |
Once we get close to the referendum, I won't be allowed to do this. | 0:38:24 | 0:38:30 | |
As a matter of interest, hands up those of you who | 0:38:30 | 0:38:33 | |
at the moment would vote out? | 0:38:33 | 0:38:34 | |
Who would vote in? | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
Yeah. About double the numbers staying in. | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
Interesting. Interesting. | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
Shall we go on to another question? I think we'd better. | 0:38:44 | 0:38:47 | |
David Airey, please. David Airey. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:50 | |
Will Northern Irish politics ever get to the stage | 0:38:50 | 0:38:53 | |
where we have a ruling party and an opposition rather than this | 0:38:53 | 0:38:57 | |
forced marriage that continues indefinitely. | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
This is... We touched on this briefly, over gay marriage. | 0:39:00 | 0:39:05 | |
The idea that the Assembly doesn't have a simple majority, | 0:39:05 | 0:39:10 | |
it has a majority that is then checked by keeping DUP, | 0:39:10 | 0:39:14 | |
Sinn Fein, left, right, Catholic, Protestant, | 0:39:14 | 0:39:18 | |
however you like to put it, in the business. | 0:39:18 | 0:39:22 | |
Peter Hain, you were Northern Ireland Secretary. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:24 | |
Do you think there will ever be a state when you can have a simple | 0:39:24 | 0:39:28 | |
opposition and government as we have at Westminster? | 0:39:28 | 0:39:32 | |
Yes, I think there will. | 0:39:32 | 0:39:33 | |
I don't think it's going to be soon. | 0:39:33 | 0:39:35 | |
A lot more trust needs to be built, a lot of generational change needs | 0:39:35 | 0:39:39 | |
to settle in before that happens. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:41 | |
It will be a decision for the people of Northern Ireland, | 0:39:41 | 0:39:45 | |
not for secretaries of state. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
In time, Northern Ireland, as politics normalises, | 0:39:47 | 0:39:50 | |
and moves away from historic divisions, I think it will move | 0:39:50 | 0:39:55 | |
towards like it does in other societies - left and right, | 0:39:55 | 0:39:59 | |
class-based perhaps, other issues coming in. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:01 | |
And that will be healthy. | 0:40:01 | 0:40:03 | |
I think it would be premature and actually quite destabilising | 0:40:03 | 0:40:07 | |
to rush into that at the present time or, | 0:40:07 | 0:40:10 | |
frankly, for the foreseeable future. | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
Foreseeable future being what? 20, 30 years? | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
-Decades. -Decades. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:18 | |
That is not for me to decide. That is my instinct at the moment. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:21 | |
People raise, occasionally, the idea that you could have a truth | 0:40:21 | 0:40:24 | |
and reconciliation commission like in South Africa, | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
for instance, here in Northern Ireland where people talk | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
about what happened in the past and then put it to one side. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:33 | |
Lord Eames, a former archbishop of Ireland, | 0:40:33 | 0:40:37 | |
he was author of a report with Dennis Bradley, | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
who is a nationalist, who came out with a very good set | 0:40:40 | 0:40:45 | |
of proposals for addressing exactly these sort of issues. | 0:40:45 | 0:40:50 | |
The problem is - everybody said, great report, except for one | 0:40:50 | 0:40:53 | |
recommendation which was ill-judged on compensation. | 0:40:53 | 0:40:57 | |
A great report, an American diplomat came out with a similar report. | 0:40:57 | 0:41:01 | |
It's log-jammed and gridlocked in the Northern Ireland Assembly. | 0:41:01 | 0:41:05 | |
That is wrong. The past haunts Northern Ireland. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:09 | |
It has to be addressed, particularly victims' grievances | 0:41:09 | 0:41:12 | |
and sense of injustice addressed through that process. | 0:41:12 | 0:41:16 | |
Declan Kearney, do you agree with Peter Hain it will be decades | 0:41:16 | 0:41:20 | |
before you can have a simple majority government | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
here in Northern Ireland? | 0:41:23 | 0:41:25 | |
We concluded a negotiation just eight to ten weeks ago, | 0:41:25 | 0:41:30 | |
the Stormont House Agreement Fresh Start, and within the provisions | 0:41:30 | 0:41:36 | |
of the agreement is a contingency for the emergence of an opposition | 0:41:36 | 0:41:41 | |
here in the Assembly. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:44 | |
So the facility is now in place to be enacted at an appropriate time | 0:41:44 | 0:41:48 | |
in the future when there are sufficient numbers who wish | 0:41:48 | 0:41:53 | |
to go into opposition. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:55 | |
The reality is that we have our unique political framework | 0:41:55 | 0:41:59 | |
as a direct result of the context that we have all lived through. | 0:41:59 | 0:42:03 | |
So we're now looking at a fresh start. | 0:42:03 | 0:42:06 | |
I hope it will be a new start. | 0:42:06 | 0:42:08 | |
I hope that we're going to see a period opening up | 0:42:08 | 0:42:12 | |
when we can embed power-sharing, | 0:42:12 | 0:42:14 | |
where we can in fact see partnership government. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:17 | |
The fact is, for the last five years, the political instability | 0:42:17 | 0:42:22 | |
that we saw develop, which gave rise to the crisis | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
of the last 12 months, was largely unleashed as a result | 0:42:25 | 0:42:29 | |
of the failure of Theresa's party in Government | 0:42:29 | 0:42:33 | |
with the Lib Dems and the Irish Government in Dublin to stay | 0:42:33 | 0:42:37 | |
properly focused on their responsibilities as co-guarantors | 0:42:37 | 0:42:40 | |
for the peace and political process. | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
Could it happen now? Right now? | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
What we need to do is open up a space where we can embed politics, | 0:42:45 | 0:42:49 | |
where we can make politics work. | 0:42:49 | 0:42:52 | |
Politics has had a bad name in the course of the last few years | 0:42:52 | 0:42:56 | |
within wider society. | 0:42:56 | 0:42:58 | |
We haven't seen enough delivery. | 0:42:58 | 0:42:59 | |
It's time that the institutions began to deliver for unionist | 0:42:59 | 0:43:03 | |
and republican working-class people across the North and work | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
for the business community and for the labour movement. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:09 | |
It's time we saw us move to a stage where our peace process can in fact | 0:43:09 | 0:43:14 | |
develop into a new phase where we can indeed begin | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
to look at reconciliation, | 0:43:18 | 0:43:20 | |
where we can look at the healing process and ensure that | 0:43:20 | 0:43:24 | |
all of our children in the future enjoy an entirely different | 0:43:24 | 0:43:27 | |
political and economic context than many in the audience | 0:43:27 | 0:43:30 | |
here will have experienced in recent decades. | 0:43:30 | 0:43:33 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:43:33 | 0:43:36 | |
Nigel Dodds, do you agree with that? | 0:43:36 | 0:43:38 | |
Can it be achieved sooner than decades away? | 0:43:38 | 0:43:41 | |
I would like to think it would be sooner than decades away. | 0:43:41 | 0:43:44 | |
I would like to see it happen as quickly as possible. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:48 | |
We have advocated moving away from these sort of rigid structures. | 0:43:48 | 0:43:52 | |
I think the Fresh Start Agreement that Declan Kearney referred to | 0:43:52 | 0:43:56 | |
provides an opportunity now for us to move forward. | 0:43:56 | 0:43:59 | |
It does include reforms to the number of government | 0:43:59 | 0:44:02 | |
departments from 2020, a reduction in the number of MLAs at Stormont. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
It does include provision for opposition for parties that | 0:44:06 | 0:44:09 | |
are elected and wish to take that role going forward. | 0:44:09 | 0:44:11 | |
So I think that we need to move forward on these issues. | 0:44:11 | 0:44:15 | |
I would like to see it happen as quickly as possible, obviously. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:18 | |
Let's not forget how far we have come in a relatively short time. | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
-It is not that long ago... -Absolutely. | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
where it would have been impossible to contemplate us having | 0:44:25 | 0:44:28 | |
arguments about the issues we have been talking | 0:44:28 | 0:44:31 | |
about and discussing tonight. | 0:44:31 | 0:44:33 | |
It would have been dominated by the latest terrorist atrocity | 0:44:33 | 0:44:37 | |
or the latest massive political standoff and all the rest of it | 0:44:37 | 0:44:41 | |
on very fundamental constitutional issues. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:44 | |
We have come an enormously long way. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:46 | |
We need to always remember that. | 0:44:46 | 0:44:48 | |
We have our challenges and difficulties, I think | 0:44:48 | 0:44:51 | |
the Fresh Start Agreement, which has now been set in place, | 0:44:51 | 0:44:54 | |
has already made some transformation in the political landscape. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:58 | |
People are talking positively about the future | 0:44:58 | 0:45:00 | |
of Northern Ireland. | 0:45:00 | 0:45:02 | |
We need to build on that and see what can be achieved incrementally. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:06 | |
I think it's wrong to simply say - to forget and not remind ourselves | 0:45:06 | 0:45:10 | |
how far we have come in recent years. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:12 | |
-Totally right. -You, sir. | 0:45:12 | 0:45:14 | |
Peter Hain is correct. | 0:45:16 | 0:45:18 | |
It's going to take time. | 0:45:18 | 0:45:19 | |
In the High Court, Mr Justice Weir is reviewing 250 legacy inquests, | 0:45:19 | 0:45:24 | |
which he says will take 40 years to hear. | 0:45:24 | 0:45:27 | |
We won't deal with our past until there's an influx of funding. | 0:45:27 | 0:45:30 | |
The politicians need to set up a system whereby we can deal | 0:45:30 | 0:45:34 | |
with our past and move on to our future, simple as that. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:37 | |
-You, sir? -Just quickly, I was three when the Good Friday Agreement | 0:45:37 | 0:45:42 | |
was passed and having grown up my whole life with my parents | 0:45:42 | 0:45:46 | |
and all the rest of it and a lot of people around me | 0:45:46 | 0:45:50 | |
who were proponents of the Good Friday Agreement | 0:45:50 | 0:45:54 | |
and so would I have been, but studying politics at university, | 0:45:54 | 0:45:58 | |
we're looking at the fact that the Good Friday Agreement has | 0:45:58 | 0:46:02 | |
actually only entrenched divisions. | 0:46:02 | 0:46:05 | |
I understand it's been a success in the 18 years | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
since the Good Friday Agreement that we have had relative peace, | 0:46:08 | 0:46:12 | |
but we are not a normal kind of political society | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
and Rick Wilford, a professor at Queens, has actually said that | 0:46:15 | 0:46:18 | |
the electoral system that we have actually only entrenches divisions. | 0:46:18 | 0:46:22 | |
We de facto have two elections take place here - a unionist election | 0:46:22 | 0:46:25 | |
and a nationalist election. | 0:46:25 | 0:46:27 | |
Yes, people will say, what about the middle parties, | 0:46:27 | 0:46:31 | |
the parties who are non-aligned? | 0:46:31 | 0:46:32 | |
And that's a fair point but they only make up | 0:46:32 | 0:46:35 | |
about 8.5% share of the vote. | 0:46:35 | 0:46:38 | |
So if we want to move from conflict management to conflict resolution, | 0:46:38 | 0:46:42 | |
we need to start looking at a new process, an innovative | 0:46:42 | 0:46:45 | |
process to engage the new generation coming up who didn't grow up | 0:46:45 | 0:46:49 | |
with those kind of legacy issues of the past. | 0:46:49 | 0:46:53 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:54 | |
APPLAUSE Theresa? | 0:46:54 | 0:46:57 | |
You hear what he says, that the present constitution | 0:47:01 | 0:47:05 | |
entrenches opposing groups and doesn't allow them | 0:47:05 | 0:47:09 | |
to come together? | 0:47:09 | 0:47:10 | |
Well, I'm a strong supporter of the institution set up under | 0:47:10 | 0:47:14 | |
the Belfast Good Friday Agreement. | 0:47:14 | 0:47:17 | |
I think it's rightly held up around the world as a model of how to bring | 0:47:17 | 0:47:21 | |
peace after many years of division. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
Yes, it's not perfect and I agree with what's been said around | 0:47:24 | 0:47:28 | |
the panel, I would like to see it move towards a more normal system | 0:47:28 | 0:47:32 | |
of government with a more regular government in opposition. | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
The reality is, as Declan says, it's already changing. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
The Stormont House and Fresh Start Agreement already deliver | 0:47:39 | 0:47:42 | |
official provision for an opposition. | 0:47:42 | 0:47:45 | |
These things take time. | 0:47:45 | 0:47:46 | |
It will be years before we can move away from a mandatory coalition. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:51 | |
But whilst these institutions are not perfect, as they are, | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
they have brought peace and they have delivered a huge | 0:47:54 | 0:47:58 | |
amount for Northern Ireland, not least in the sphere | 0:47:58 | 0:48:01 | |
of the economy where the Northern Ireland economy | 0:48:01 | 0:48:04 | |
is recovering strongly. | 0:48:04 | 0:48:06 | |
I think the executive have done an excellent job in terms | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
of bringing in inward investment and jobs, | 0:48:09 | 0:48:11 | |
partly caused by the Government's long-term economic plan but also | 0:48:11 | 0:48:15 | |
caused by the responsibility of a responsible executive | 0:48:15 | 0:48:18 | |
which demonstrates that people from very different political | 0:48:18 | 0:48:21 | |
perspectives can work together for the good of all people | 0:48:21 | 0:48:24 | |
in Northern Ireland. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:25 | |
Declan and Nigel wouldn't have been on this programme as recently | 0:48:25 | 0:48:29 | |
as nine years ago, now they are arguing about gay marriage, | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
-I mean that's massive progress and you should welcome it. -Yes. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:36 | |
I remember when we used to have to interview the different parties | 0:48:36 | 0:48:40 | |
in different studios because they wouldn't come | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
into the same studio and we spent the whole time walking from one | 0:48:43 | 0:48:47 | |
studio to another to catch up with the argument. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
The same negotiating. | 0:48:50 | 0:48:52 | |
-You, sir? -Thank you. I love the idea of the opposition. | 0:48:52 | 0:48:57 | |
It will be great for Stormont, it will. | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
I totally agree with the Fresh Start and with the Secretary of State's | 0:49:00 | 0:49:04 | |
quote, it will be successful. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
OK. And you? And, then, I'll come to you, Grainne. | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
Sorry, the man behind you. He had his hand up longer! | 0:49:10 | 0:49:13 | |
Just going back to the question about will there ever be a one-party | 0:49:13 | 0:49:17 | |
government that actually represents the North of Ireland. | 0:49:17 | 0:49:21 | |
Obviously, with Peter Hain saying about the past, | 0:49:21 | 0:49:24 | |
you know, it's important that we do move forward and we forget | 0:49:24 | 0:49:27 | |
about the past but that also dictates our future. | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
There was one-party government for a long time to the detriment | 0:49:30 | 0:49:34 | |
of one people so obviously I hope in the future we can come to that, | 0:49:34 | 0:49:39 | |
but that it will be for the benefit of everyone | 0:49:39 | 0:49:42 | |
in the whole of Northern Ireland. | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
And you, sir, on the gangway. | 0:49:45 | 0:49:49 | |
I think we have come a long way, as Nigel says, and that's to be | 0:49:49 | 0:49:53 | |
praised, but also political posturing from the new First | 0:49:53 | 0:49:57 | |
Minister over, for example, the 1916 commemorations | 0:49:57 | 0:50:01 | |
and our unwillingness to participate in contrast to even | 0:50:01 | 0:50:05 | |
the Queen's visit to Dublin several years ago and the steps | 0:50:05 | 0:50:09 | |
that she showed that bring goodwill towards the relations both | 0:50:09 | 0:50:14 | |
here and between the two islands, I think maybe small sort | 0:50:14 | 0:50:18 | |
of political posturing like that doesn't help inclusivity. | 0:50:18 | 0:50:23 | |
All right. Grainne? | 0:50:23 | 0:50:25 | |
Regarding... From an outsider's point of view, | 0:50:27 | 0:50:30 | |
obviously what happened, the Northern Ireland peace process | 0:50:30 | 0:50:33 | |
is incredible, it's studied around the world, | 0:50:33 | 0:50:36 | |
what it's achieved is incredible. | 0:50:36 | 0:50:38 | |
I can understand people's frustration with it because, | 0:50:38 | 0:50:41 | |
just from reading about it, it's like, "Stormont, it's all going | 0:50:41 | 0:50:45 | |
"fine, no, it's about to collapse, no, it's fine again! | 0:50:45 | 0:50:48 | |
"No, we hate each other again," | 0:50:48 | 0:50:50 | |
and it does sometimes sound like an episode of Dawson's Creek | 0:50:50 | 0:50:54 | |
rather than a political process. | 0:50:54 | 0:50:58 | |
Maybe you guys need a book club or reiki circle, I don't know. | 0:50:58 | 0:51:03 | |
The 1916 centenary, I can speak with authority because my grandad | 0:51:03 | 0:51:08 | |
fought in the Irish uprising, he found love late in life, | 0:51:08 | 0:51:12 | |
and I can understand the First Minister if she didn't | 0:51:12 | 0:51:16 | |
want to attend, if she was worried Bono might pop up... | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
because that is something Irish people have to live with every day! | 0:51:19 | 0:51:24 | |
He could just pop up at any moment, | 0:51:24 | 0:51:26 | |
so if that's her reason for avoiding it, | 0:51:26 | 0:51:28 | |
I totally respect that. | 0:51:28 | 0:51:29 | |
There are two game-changing dynamics that need to be introduced | 0:51:32 | 0:51:37 | |
to allow us to move things on. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:39 | |
The first is, the British Government, Theresa's Government, | 0:51:39 | 0:51:42 | |
need to lift the veto on information disclosure to ensure we can move | 0:51:42 | 0:51:46 | |
forward with the mechanisms for dealing with our past. | 0:51:46 | 0:51:49 | |
The second thing is, they need to lift the cuts | 0:51:49 | 0:51:51 | |
they are imposing on public services and the cuts they are making | 0:51:51 | 0:51:55 | |
to the block grant here in the North. | 0:51:55 | 0:51:57 | |
Austerity has to stop in Northern Ireland. | 0:51:57 | 0:51:59 | |
A few minutes left. And John Docherty has a question... | 0:52:01 | 0:52:06 | |
Are Donald Trump and Sarah Palin the dream team for the US elections? | 0:52:06 | 0:52:12 | |
Are Donald Trump and Sarah Palin the dream team? Nigel Dodds. | 0:52:12 | 0:52:18 | |
I think it more like a nightmare team for some, isn't it? | 0:52:18 | 0:52:21 | |
I was really surprised that Sarah Palin came out in support | 0:52:21 | 0:52:24 | |
of Donald Trump because she portrays herself as a conservative | 0:52:24 | 0:52:28 | |
and Donald Trump being this urban New Yorker | 0:52:28 | 0:52:30 | |
is not in the tradition of normal conservatives in America. | 0:52:30 | 0:52:34 | |
And Jeb Bush has been saying this, very clearly. | 0:52:34 | 0:52:37 | |
It is a phenomenal situation | 0:52:37 | 0:52:39 | |
that Donald Trump's now being seriously talked about by people | 0:52:39 | 0:52:44 | |
in America as a probable Republican nominee for President which I think | 0:52:44 | 0:52:49 | |
is, if nothing else, gives Grainne tonnes of material | 0:52:49 | 0:52:53 | |
to work with for many years to come! | 0:52:53 | 0:52:56 | |
-Do you think it's likely? -I think it's increasingly likely. | 0:52:56 | 0:52:59 | |
His poll ratings do not seem to be diminishing and they seem | 0:52:59 | 0:53:03 | |
to be increasing. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:04 | |
His nearest challenger is one Ted Cruise, a very staunch | 0:53:04 | 0:53:09 | |
populist tea-party right-winger. | 0:53:09 | 0:53:12 | |
There's something fundamental going on in America | 0:53:12 | 0:53:14 | |
which is that people are fed up with the traditional | 0:53:14 | 0:53:17 | |
politics of America which they believe has let down | 0:53:17 | 0:53:20 | |
the ordinary middle class, as they put it, | 0:53:20 | 0:53:22 | |
and is not standing up for America in the world | 0:53:22 | 0:53:25 | |
and clearly this is a matter for the citizens of the US. | 0:53:25 | 0:53:28 | |
They are going to go to the polls very soon. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:30 | |
There was a debate on Monday in Westminster on Donald Trump | 0:53:30 | 0:53:34 | |
and I think the consensus was that it would be wrong | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
to ban him from the UK, it's totally wrong, you know, | 0:53:37 | 0:53:41 | |
we should have an engagement debate, certainly somebody who may | 0:53:41 | 0:53:44 | |
be the leader of the free world but we should challenge him about some | 0:53:44 | 0:53:48 | |
of his views which are repugnant. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
However, he's tapping into a chord of disconnect between politicians in | 0:53:51 | 0:53:55 | |
Washington and the ordinary people. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:57 | |
It's a lesson also for the countries and governments of Europe as well. | 0:53:57 | 0:54:01 | |
We should listen to the people. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:04 | |
Peter Hain? | 0:54:04 | 0:54:05 | |
An angry electorate to whom Trump and Palin would appeal? | 0:54:05 | 0:54:10 | |
Yes, but the thought of Donald Trump being President of the United States | 0:54:10 | 0:54:14 | |
and Vladimir Putin being President of Russia and the two being the most | 0:54:14 | 0:54:19 | |
powerful nations in the world is appalling and I was disgusted | 0:54:19 | 0:54:22 | |
by Donald Trump's statement about banning Muslims from entering | 0:54:22 | 0:54:26 | |
the United States of America. | 0:54:26 | 0:54:28 | |
That Islamophobia is absolutely disgusting. | 0:54:28 | 0:54:31 | |
I noticed, by the way, that he did that in response | 0:54:31 | 0:54:35 | |
to a Jihadi couple massacring a group of people in California. | 0:54:35 | 0:54:41 | |
When it came to white psychopaths killing students or children, | 0:54:41 | 0:54:47 | |
he says, give them more guns. | 0:54:47 | 0:54:49 | |
This guy is absurd. | 0:54:49 | 0:54:52 | |
APPLAUSE All right. You, sir, you on the end. Brief point. | 0:54:52 | 0:54:57 | |
The ultimate nightmare will be Donald Trump, President, | 0:54:57 | 0:55:02 | |
and Miss Palin, Secretary of State. | 0:55:02 | 0:55:06 | |
-LAUGHTER -She would start with a great advantage, | 0:55:06 | 0:55:09 | |
she would be able to keep an eye on Mr Putin | 0:55:09 | 0:55:11 | |
from her home in Alaska. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE | 0:55:13 | 0:55:16 | |
Yes. That was her famous claim last time. | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
"I know about Russia because I can see it." | 0:55:21 | 0:55:23 | |
Theresa Villiers? | 0:55:23 | 0:55:25 | |
The only people for whom a Donald Trump Sarah Palin team would be | 0:55:25 | 0:55:29 | |
the dream team are Mrs Clinton and the Democrats. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:32 | |
It's a worrying thought, the idea of Donald Trump as President | 0:55:32 | 0:55:37 | |
of the United States and I think his comments on barring | 0:55:37 | 0:55:41 | |
Muslims from entering the United States are really | 0:55:41 | 0:55:45 | |
unacceptable and really offensive to many people so I think it's | 0:55:45 | 0:55:50 | |
a worrying situation in the US, it's entirely a matter for them, | 0:55:50 | 0:55:55 | |
but I find some of the comments that Donald Trump has come out with to be | 0:55:55 | 0:55:58 | |
completely unacceptable and I think it would be very worrying | 0:55:58 | 0:56:02 | |
if he ended up as one of the most powerful people in the world. | 0:56:02 | 0:56:05 | |
Grainne Maguire? | 0:56:05 | 0:56:08 | |
I feel really sorry for Sarah Palin because when she sobered up | 0:56:08 | 0:56:11 | |
the next day and found out what she'd done, she must | 0:56:11 | 0:56:14 | |
have been mortified. | 0:56:14 | 0:56:16 | |
Realistically, Trump's pollings are relatively high | 0:56:16 | 0:56:20 | |
because there are so many candidates still in the Republican race. | 0:56:20 | 0:56:23 | |
When it narrows down, it's going to dissipate, | 0:56:23 | 0:56:26 | |
and he's got more people polling saying they will never vote for him. | 0:56:26 | 0:56:29 | |
So, it's unlikely. However, I've come up with a solution | 0:56:29 | 0:56:33 | |
to if he comes to Britain - we dub him the way | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
we used to dub Gerry Adams in the '90s and get somebody | 0:56:36 | 0:56:39 | |
like Bruce Forsyth to read out everything he says. | 0:56:39 | 0:56:43 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:56:43 | 0:56:44 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:56:44 | 0:56:48 | |
Declan, you have to be brief because we're coming to the end. | 0:56:48 | 0:56:52 | |
I think it's characteristic of what we are seeing | 0:56:52 | 0:56:54 | |
across the globe, the emergence of extremist right-wing views. | 0:56:54 | 0:56:58 | |
My only hope is that the, uh... | 0:56:58 | 0:57:02 | |
growth in support for Trump as it appears to be | 0:57:02 | 0:57:07 | |
and people like Palin as cheerleaders | 0:57:07 | 0:57:09 | |
will have an energising effect on those voices | 0:57:09 | 0:57:12 | |
from within the progressive on the left | 0:57:12 | 0:57:14 | |
and the democratic wing of American society | 0:57:14 | 0:57:16 | |
so they don't become the definitive voice | 0:57:16 | 0:57:19 | |
and they don't win the election. | 0:57:19 | 0:57:22 | |
OK. One more point from the man sitting there in the blue shirt? | 0:57:22 | 0:57:26 | |
I would agree with the panel. | 0:57:26 | 0:57:28 | |
I do find it very concerning Donald Trump being President | 0:57:28 | 0:57:32 | |
of America but I don't think that we should ban him from the UK. | 0:57:32 | 0:57:36 | |
I only feel that that feeds into his PR machine and I already | 0:57:36 | 0:57:39 | |
know that he's used this in debates for his favour. | 0:57:39 | 0:57:43 | |
OK. I think we have to stop. | 0:57:43 | 0:57:46 | |
Our hour is up. Sorry about that. | 0:57:46 | 0:57:49 | |
Put another shilling in the meter! | 0:57:49 | 0:57:52 | |
-Put another shilling in the meter! HAIN: -We'll stay. | 0:57:54 | 0:57:57 | |
All right. No, our time is up. | 0:57:57 | 0:57:59 | |
We're in Stamford, having another go in Lincolnshire next week. | 0:57:59 | 0:58:03 | |
And then in Bradford the week after that. | 0:58:03 | 0:58:05 | |
If you can come to either Stamford or Bradford, | 0:58:05 | 0:58:08 | |
the website address is there. | 0:58:08 | 0:58:11 | |
We'll ask you all sorts of questions about what you want to talk about. | 0:58:14 | 0:58:18 | |
We'll have an audience like this one, beautifully divided representing | 0:58:18 | 0:58:23 | |
the whole community. If you're listening on Radio 5 Live, | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
the debate goes on on Question Time Extra Time. | 0:58:26 | 0:58:30 | |
It stops here, at least in the studio. | 0:58:30 | 0:58:32 | |
My thanks to the panel, to all of you who came to take part. | 0:58:32 | 0:58:36 | |
From the Titanic in Belfast, until next Thursday | 0:58:36 | 0:58:40 | |
from Question Time, good night. | 0:58:40 | 0:58:42 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:58:42 | 0:58:45 |