Browse content similar to 09/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight we're in Croydon
and welcome to Question Time. | 0:00:06 | 0:00:12 | |
With us here... | 0:00:16 | 0:00:19 | |
The Secretary of State
for Education, Justine Greening, | 0:00:19 | 0:00:22 | |
who's also a Minister
for Women and Equality. | 0:00:22 | 0:00:27 | |
One of the MPs leading the fight
to reform the culture | 0:00:27 | 0:00:29 | |
at Westminster, Labour's Stella
Creasy. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:37 | |
The star of television's Location,
Location, Location the property | 0:00:37 | 0:00:39 | |
expert, Kirstie Allsopp. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:40 | |
The Guardian writer on economics,
Aditya Chakrabortty, | 0:00:40 | 0:00:46 | |
who this week dished up the details
on how the rich use tax | 0:00:46 | 0:00:49 | |
havens to get richer. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:50 | |
And claiming this is largely
resented because the rich can do it | 0:00:50 | 0:00:53 | |
and the rest of us can't,
the columnist of the Daily Telegraph | 0:00:53 | 0:00:56 | |
and the Spectator, Charles Moore. | 0:00:56 | 0:00:58 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:58 | 0:01:07 | |
And just a reminder -
thank you very much - | 0:01:07 | 0:01:11 | |
a reminder at home,
if you want to get involved | 0:01:11 | 0:01:13 | |
in the argument, you can argue along
using our #bbcqt either Facebook | 0:01:13 | 0:01:19 | |
or Twitter or you can text us 83981,
push the Red Button to see | 0:01:19 | 0:01:23 | |
what others are saying. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:24 | |
Now our first question tonight
is from Gemma Collins, please. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
Gemma Collins. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:27 | |
In light of recent events,
can Theresa May still call her | 0:01:27 | 0:01:31 | |
government strong and stable? | 0:01:31 | 0:01:33 | |
Can Theresa May still call her
government strong and stable? | 0:01:33 | 0:01:36 | |
Stella Creasy. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:37 | |
No. | 0:01:37 | 0:01:40 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:01:40 | 0:01:44 | |
But this is the terribly sad thing,
isn't it, because actually this | 0:01:44 | 0:01:47 | |
is our country and this chaos
is affecting all of our lives. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:52 | |
It's not just about the lack of grip
over where the direction | 0:01:52 | 0:01:56 | |
of the country is going,
it's all the every day issues that | 0:01:56 | 0:01:58 | |
aren't being dealt with. | 0:01:58 | 0:01:59 | |
Whether it is the rising
inequality in our society. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:03 | |
Whether it is the issues
in our schools, in terms | 0:02:03 | 0:02:12 | |
of their funding - I'm sure Justine
would have a word on that. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
I talk to teachers
who are now paying for | 0:02:15 | 0:02:17 | |
supplies in their schools. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:18 | |
I talk to police officers in London
desperately worried about the fact | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
we're losing 3,000 officers
from our streets. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:22 | |
These are all big challenges
that we have to deal | 0:02:22 | 0:02:25 | |
with and instead what's happening
is the backbenches of | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
the Conservative Party are defining
all of our shared futures. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:29 | |
So people may laugh, but I am
desperately worried about this. | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
Let be very, very clear about this
because if Theresa May wants | 0:02:32 | 0:02:40 | |
to accept what we all know
is inevitable and that she needs | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
to throw-in the towel,
there's certainly many of us | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
certainly who would like to step up,
called Labour, to run this country | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
instead and fight for the future
of this country. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:51 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:02:51 | 0:02:52 | |
She should throw in the towel,
Justine Greening? | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
I totally disagree. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:55 | |
I think the bottom line is that
we're a government that is steering | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
this country through a very
difficult Brexit negotiation, | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
but alongside that we have
a domestic agenda that is also | 0:03:00 | 0:03:02 | |
shifting our country
in the right direction. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
You mentioned education, Stella,
well there are now 1.8 million more | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
children in good or outstanding
schools, including some here | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
in Croydon, than there were in 2010. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:16 | |
When you look at people's take home
pay, we've taken millions of people | 0:03:16 | 0:03:20 | |
out of paying tax altogether
and raised the personal allowance | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
for around 30 million people. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
We've got more people in work
than we've had for many years | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
and an unemployment rate that's
about half the Eurozone average. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
What I'm saying is that people
are in jobs and in work. | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
The economy's doing well. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:37 | |
I'm also saying that when we look
ahead to the future, | 0:03:37 | 0:03:40 | |
we're making sure that our young
people are coming through | 0:03:40 | 0:03:42 | |
the education system
with the educational skills | 0:03:42 | 0:03:44 | |
that they need... | 0:03:44 | 0:03:45 | |
All right, OK. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:46 | |
Let me just... | 0:03:46 | 0:03:47 | |
Hang on, hang on both of you. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:49 | |
Let me just ask Gemma Collins
what she meant by the question. | 0:03:49 | 0:03:52 | |
I mean, like, with regards
to her not even to have a stable | 0:03:52 | 0:04:01 | |
Cabinet together and people leaving,
distrust. | 0:04:01 | 0:04:03 | |
They're arguing with each
other and not focussing | 0:04:03 | 0:04:05 | |
on what's actually happening? | 0:04:05 | 0:04:05 | |
When Justine Greening gives
you a list of statistics | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
about things, does that
not convince you? | 0:04:08 | 0:04:09 | |
Not really, no. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:10 | |
Not really, OK. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:12 | |
When in the news something's
happening every single week, | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
every day, another problem. | 0:04:14 | 0:04:15 | |
It's just... | 0:04:15 | 0:04:16 | |
It's all noise just to cover it up. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:18 | |
Justine, I'll come back to you. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
Kirstie Allsopp. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:21 | |
I think the point you made, Gemma,
about the news is very interesting. | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
We're living in a very different
news environment than we've | 0:04:24 | 0:04:26 | |
ever lived in before. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
When I came on Question Time
for the first time, eight years ago, | 0:04:28 | 0:04:32 | |
Twitter didn't exist. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
The social media world
in which we exist today does give us | 0:04:34 | 0:04:37 | |
a sense of being destabilised. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
Things seem to be happening every
day that we can't keep up with. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:44 | |
What, like two Cabinet ministers
resigning in a week? | 0:04:44 | 0:04:46 | |
OK! | 0:04:46 | 0:04:50 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:04:50 | 0:04:52 | |
Point taken, David. | 0:04:52 | 0:04:54 | |
There are two totally
different issues here. | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
One Cabinet Minister
resigned for one reason | 0:04:57 | 0:04:58 | |
and another for another reason. | 0:04:58 | 0:04:59 | |
And they are... | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
I don't think they relate either
of them to Theresa May's | 0:05:03 | 0:05:05 | |
current government. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:07 | |
They are two separate issues,
which we could discuss further. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:09 | |
OK, Charles Moore. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
No, I think they do both relate
to Theresa May's government | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
because President LB Johnson said
that the first skill a politician | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
has to have is arithmetic. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:21 | |
What he meant by that was,
you have to add up what votes you've | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
got and see whether you can win. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:27 | |
Of course because the Tories did
much less well than expected | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
in the election, they haven't got
strong and stable government | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
and they can't because
the arithmetic doesn't work, | 0:05:33 | 0:05:34 | |
it's very knife edge. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
However, I think Mrs May is making
a mistake about how to deal | 0:05:37 | 0:05:40 | |
with that because I think
what you have to do, to your own | 0:05:40 | 0:05:46 | |
team and to the country,
is you have to sort of be upfront | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
about that and say how
difficult your position | 0:05:49 | 0:05:51 | |
is and concentrate on the things
that really matter and be | 0:05:51 | 0:05:54 | |
strong about them. | 0:05:54 | 0:05:55 | |
And say - look, this
is what I believe in and this | 0:05:55 | 0:05:58 | |
is what I'm going to do. | 0:05:58 | 0:05:59 | |
What I feel that's not happening,
particularly about Brexit, | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
so we don't actually know what way
we're actually going about it. | 0:06:02 | 0:06:08 | |
And I think that what you see
with the Government - | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
and this comes from the top
downwards, you can't blame the lower | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
people for this really -
is you see it's governed by fear. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:16 | |
So what it's always thinking is -
help, we're going to get into more | 0:06:16 | 0:06:20 | |
trouble if we do this,
so we'd better do that | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
or we'd better not do this. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:24 | |
So actually what's going
on is it's room for manoeuvre | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
is narrowing all the time. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:33 | |
All right. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:34 | |
I really do think that's a very
unfortunate position to be in. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
Aditya, I'll come to you. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:38 | |
Justine Greening, do you jsut
want to answer Charles Moore's point | 0:06:38 | 0:06:41 | |
as a fellow Conservative? | 0:06:41 | 0:06:42 | |
Well, we are a minority Government,
but I think in practice most | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
of what we deliver on a day-to-day
basis is on legislation that's | 0:06:45 | 0:06:47 | |
already been passed. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:49 | |
So, Gemma, I know I gave
lots of statistics, but actually | 0:06:49 | 0:06:51 | |
it's because I wanted to give
you some actual facts of what we're | 0:06:51 | 0:07:01 | |
achieving because I recognise
sometimes, when we make our | 0:07:03 | 0:07:05 | |
arguments, it's hard to frankly pull
out what's really going on. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:08 | |
So these are the facts
of what we're doing on the ground | 0:07:08 | 0:07:11 | |
and I absolutely, yes,
you won't see many of them | 0:07:11 | 0:07:13 | |
in the paper because they're good
news, but what I'm saying, | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
Charles is, what we see day-to-day
is a government that is getting | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
on with some substantial reform. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:21 | |
If you look at what we're
doing in education, | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
on introducing T-levels,
so that for the first time young | 0:07:24 | 0:07:26 | |
people post-16 actually have some
proper choices between not just | 0:07:26 | 0:07:28 | |
an academic route,
but a technical education route. | 0:07:28 | 0:07:30 | |
Those things are actually
happening on the ground | 0:07:30 | 0:07:32 | |
and we're getting with that. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:33 | |
They will make a profound
improvement to the opportunities | 0:07:33 | 0:07:36 | |
for our young people
in the years to come. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
But the whole is so much weaker... | 0:07:38 | 0:07:39 | |
It's weaker than the sum of
the parts, if you see what I mean. | 0:07:39 | 0:07:47 | |
The question is you always
want to know of a government is - | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
where are you leading our country? | 0:07:50 | 0:07:51 | |
It's particularly true when we're
about to make a massive change | 0:07:51 | 0:07:54 | |
in the whole composition,
constitution of our country. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:56 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:56 | 0:07:58 | |
We need to know now. | 0:07:58 | 0:07:59 | |
We need to know really in the next
three or four weeks. | 0:07:59 | 0:08:02 | |
What are we going to do to achieve
the Brexit we voted for? | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
OK. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:06 | |
You, sir, I'll come
to you in a moment. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:08 | |
Yes. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:10 | |
The PM has failed
to lead the country. | 0:08:10 | 0:08:15 | |
She had one job to prove herself,
and that was to fire Priti Patel | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
and then Priti Patel had to resign. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:22 | |
Now we have a government where it's
led by a person who cannot even fire | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
someone who has broken
the Ministerial Code, | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
but at least there's still a chance
for her to redeem herself by firing | 0:08:29 | 0:08:33 | |
Boris... | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:08:36 | 0:08:46 | |
But if that doesn't happen,
trust me, she has until Christmas | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
and the Government will fall. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:50 | |
She has to redeem herself. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:51 | |
All right. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:52 | |
We'll maybe come to
that in more detail. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:54 | |
Aditya though, on the main first
point about whether the Government | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
is strong and stable? | 0:08:57 | 0:08:58 | |
Well, the straight answer
to that is, obviously, | 0:08:58 | 0:09:00 | |
it's not strong and stable,
it's weak and increasingly wobbly. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:02 | |
To lose two Cabinet ministers
in a week, goodness me, | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
I wonder what the next couple
of weeks will bring! | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
But the one bit of your question
that I would take issue with, Gemma, | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
is when you say "in light
of recent events." | 0:09:10 | 0:09:12 | |
Because what I see going
on with this government | 0:09:12 | 0:09:14 | |
is a culmination of seven years
of doing the wrong thing | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
over and over again. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:18 | |
So they've said that they
will fix the economy. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
Actually, they've tanked it so badly
that we're going for the biggest | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
squeeze on our living standards
since the Napoleonic Wars. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
Theresa May says she's
there for the just about managing | 0:09:28 | 0:09:30 | |
and she takes money off the poor
and she sends disabled | 0:09:30 | 0:09:33 | |
people to their deaths. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:34 | |
They say that they're
about business - That's rubbish. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
They say... | 0:09:36 | 0:09:37 | |
Rubbish. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:39 | |
People go to fitness
for work assessments, | 0:09:39 | 0:09:41 | |
they're told they're fit for work,
they lose their money and then | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
they end up seriously ill. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:45 | |
That happens over and over again. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:47 | |
If I can finish... | 0:09:47 | 0:09:56 | |
The other thing that they've said
is that they're pro-business, | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
they're pro-competition and then
they take us into a referendum, | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
which they bungle, they don't get
the result they want and so we end | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
up heading towards Brexit,
and they can't even manage Brexit. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
Hold on. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
Don't shout out, wait,
stick your hand up and make your | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
point, if you want to. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:14 | |
Yes, you sir, go on. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:17 | |
We voted for Brexit and Theresa May
is fulfilling that pledge. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:20 | |
Now you use inflammatory language,
you're like the Donald | 0:10:20 | 0:10:22 | |
Trump of the Guardian. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:23 | |
You use inflammatory language saying
that people, disabled people... | 0:10:23 | 0:10:25 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:10:25 | 0:10:26 | |
You basically accuse the people
that vote Conservative | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
and Conservative representatives,
such as myself, as sending | 0:10:28 | 0:10:30 | |
people to their deaths
because they're disabled. | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
That's disgusting. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:33 | |
Sir, I can actually introduce
you to some of the people | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
who are disabled activists -
We can all introduce | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
people to each other. | 0:10:38 | 0:10:39 | |
Who can tell you about their friends
- But you use language | 0:10:39 | 0:10:41 | |
like Donald Trump. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:43 | |
It's inflammatory rubbish. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:44 | |
I don't bear very little
resemblance to Donald Trump. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:46 | |
OK, Stella Creasy. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:47 | |
This is the problem
though, isn't it? | 0:10:47 | 0:10:49 | |
People are now very angry,
they're very scared because I'm | 0:10:49 | 0:10:59 | |
in an unusual position
to agree with Charles Moore. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:01 | |
Nobody knows the future
direction of this country | 0:11:01 | 0:11:03 | |
and whether it is to do with Brexit
and 18-months on literally | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
having no idea. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:07 | |
The Prime Minister promised us
certainty, we don't have that. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
Or it's the simple... | 0:11:09 | 0:11:10 | |
You talk about facts, Justine,
most people here will recognise | 0:11:10 | 0:11:13 | |
there is too much month at the end
of their money. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
That actually we are now a country
that is more indebted than ever. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
Who here manages to pay
off their credit card every month? | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
Hang on, hang on,
you would have us... | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
Who here actually recognises
the cost of living is going up | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
and up and up and is worried
about what is going to happen | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
next and you're looking
at a government saying, lead us. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
Instead, you're seeing rogue
minister after minister, | 0:11:31 | 0:11:33 | |
story after story. | 0:11:33 | 0:11:35 | |
I understand where you're
coming from, Gemma. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:36 | |
I think what we have to do
though is ask for action | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
because it cannot continue
like this, it's just too dangerous. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
Hang on a second, let's hear
from more members of the audience | 0:11:42 | 0:11:44 | |
and then I'll come to Justine. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:46 | |
Yes. | 0:11:46 | 0:11:47 | |
The person in the third
row there, you. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:49 | |
I just wanted to pick up on Charles'
point about arithmetic | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
in the last election. | 0:11:52 | 0:11:53 | |
The Conservatives didn't win as many
seats as they would have liked to, | 0:11:53 | 0:11:56 | |
but Labour also didn't win the last
election, so I think hasn't the time | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
come for some proper cross-party
coalition support because we're | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
headed towards a national disaster? | 0:12:01 | 0:12:03 | |
OK, the man over here. | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:07 | 0:12:09 | |
You, sir, with the glasses, yes. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:10 | |
Stella, I must take issue
with you about your comment | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
about you can't wait
to get into power. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:15 | |
The Labour Party are not in power. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:17 | |
They can say anything,
promise anything, spend billions | 0:12:17 | 0:12:19 | |
and they're not accountable. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:24 | |
But fortunately in Croydon Labour
are in power and the Labour Council | 0:12:24 | 0:12:32 | |
run the Children Services
department, which has just received | 0:12:32 | 0:12:34 | |
the most damning Ofsted report ever
where it has failed on virtually | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
every single measurement and count. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:39 | |
All right. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:40 | |
It is now in special measures
and is being overseen | 0:12:40 | 0:12:44 | |
by a Government-appointed inspector
because you can't be trusted | 0:12:44 | 0:12:46 | |
in power to actually do the job. | 0:12:46 | 0:12:49 | |
All right, let Stella answer that
and then I'll go to somebody else. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
I understand your concern, sir. | 0:12:56 | 0:12:58 | |
I think it's a slightly different
picture on the ground, | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
but what I would say is that
investment in local government has | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
been stripped to the bone,
as has everything else. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
None of that precludes
the importance of running services. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:09 | |
You asked for accountability,
you asked for ideas, | 0:13:09 | 0:13:11 | |
I want to take up your challenge. | 0:13:11 | 0:13:13 | |
I know Jeremy Corbyn wants
to take up your challenge. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:19 | |
When we see this country heading
in such a wrong direction, | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
what we ask is the opportunity
to serve because what's very clear, | 0:13:22 | 0:13:24 | |
over the last couple of weeks,
is that Theresa May just isn't up | 0:13:24 | 0:13:28 | |
to the job and it's
horrible to watch. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:29 | |
It doesn't give any of us any
pleasure because we see some | 0:13:29 | 0:13:32 | |
of the biggest choices... | 0:13:32 | 0:13:33 | |
The lady over there
wants cross-party work. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
Actually, I happen to think that
Brexit is bigger than any | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
one political party,
so you're right. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:39 | |
It's very noticeable there are 13
amendments next week that have | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
cross-party support that are bigger
than the Government's majority. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
That tells you something
about that big choice, | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
but what we want is the opportunity
to prove that we have ideas | 0:13:47 | 0:13:50 | |
we can put into action. | 0:13:50 | 0:13:51 | |
What I'm telling you is that we're
ready to take up that challenge and, | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
God knows, I think this
country needs it. | 0:13:55 | 0:13:56 | |
All right, thank you. | 0:13:56 | 0:14:00 | |
No, hold on. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
You in the front raised
a point which I'd like, | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
we've got a question on it,
I'll just take that. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
Neil Woodley, your question, please. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:09 | |
Neil Woodley. | 0:14:09 | 0:14:10 | |
Why hasn't Theresa May
sacked Boris Johnson? | 0:14:10 | 0:14:12 | |
All right, it was
the question he put. | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
Why hasn't Theresa May
sacked Boris Johnson? | 0:14:14 | 0:14:16 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:14:16 | 0:14:17 | |
Kirstie Allsopp. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:22 | |
I don't know whether the Iranian
Ambassador watches Question Time, | 0:14:22 | 0:14:26 | |
I wouldn't want to take any risks,
and I mean that very seriously. | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
I have followed this case
since the very beginning. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:35 | |
The plight of Richard,
Nazanin and their little girl | 0:14:35 | 0:14:37 | |
Gabriella haunts me. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:38 | |
That little girl, who can't come
home to the UK because all that | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
keeps her mother sane is her visits,
and a father who hasn't | 0:14:42 | 0:14:46 | |
hugged his own daughter in 18-months
because he can't go to Iran. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:51 | |
The fact that Boris Johnson has not
seen him, given him 10 minutes | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
of his time in the last 18-months
is, frankly, disgraceful | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
and I'm really sorry... | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:15:01 | 0:15:02 | |
OK. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:03 | |
All right, maybe Charles Moore. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:11 | |
In the last answer to the previous
question which I think | 0:15:11 | 0:15:13 | |
is important in all of this,
about the rush that happens | 0:15:13 | 0:15:17 | |
in things in the age of Twitter. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
Clearly Boris Johnson
made a mistake. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:21 | |
But I would ask people
to think about who is really | 0:15:21 | 0:15:24 | |
at the bottom of all of this,
who is really to blame in this. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
The answer is the
Iranian government. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:29 | |
It's Iran that is behaving
absolutely intolerably | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
to Mrs Radcliffe, it's Iran that's
locking her up for no good reason. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
I think Boris Johnson was very
remiss not to get his | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
facts right in this. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
But somehow this is all the fault
of Boris seems to be a classic | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
example of how we in this country
are very parochial and sort | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
of focus in on the latest
piece of Twitter storm. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:50 | |
What is the real picture here? | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
Sorry, Charles, sorry to interrupt
you but it's not a Twitter storm | 0:15:52 | 0:15:55 | |
when the Foreign Secretary goes
before a House of Commons committee | 0:15:55 | 0:15:58 | |
and says, when I look at this case
and what she was doing, | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
she was simply teaching people
journalism as I understand it, | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
which is the exact issue that she's
in prison for. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
Sorry, Boris was wrong. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
I'm not defending him. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:11 | |
You said it's a Twitter storm. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:13 | |
The Twitter storm is about trying
to get him out, of course he's wrong | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
and should be criticised
but we don't want the British | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
Foreign Secretary falling
for what is basically fundamentally | 0:16:19 | 0:16:23 | |
the fault of Iran of extremely evil
power who is oppressing | 0:16:23 | 0:16:29 | |
all of its people and imprisoning
a British citizen | 0:16:29 | 0:16:31 | |
for no good reason. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:32 | |
Stella Creasy, is that why
he's not been sacked? | 0:16:32 | 0:16:37 | |
I'll tell you what worries
me about it, Charles, | 0:16:37 | 0:16:41 | |
because most of us never deal
with the Foreign Office, | 0:16:41 | 0:16:45 | |
but if you got into trouble
overseas, if there was something | 0:16:45 | 0:16:49 | |
that you, as a British citizen
needed our help with, | 0:16:49 | 0:16:56 | |
it's the Foreign Office,
it's the consulate that | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
you would go to for help. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:01 | |
So the person responsible
for the very assistance supposed | 0:17:01 | 0:17:03 | |
to be given to British citizens
abroad is the one whose | 0:17:03 | 0:17:06 | |
actions have essentially
condemned her to another five | 0:17:06 | 0:17:08 | |
years in jail. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:09 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:10 | |
The woman there? | 0:17:10 | 0:17:11 | |
It's unforgiveable,
utterly unforgiveable. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:12 | |
We don't know that that's happened. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:13 | |
We absolutely do. | 0:17:13 | 0:17:14 | |
All we know is they've used
propaganda against Britain | 0:17:14 | 0:17:16 | |
which they call the little satan. | 0:17:16 | 0:17:18 | |
There are videos of Boris Johnson's
words, they are saying he speaks | 0:17:18 | 0:17:21 | |
the truth about Nazanin. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:23 | |
He has to take responsibility
for that because how can British | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
citizens abroad be confident
in a Foreign Office | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
run by Boris Johnson? | 0:17:29 | 0:17:30 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:32 | |
OK. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:34 | |
The woman there? | 0:17:34 | 0:17:36 | |
Yes? | 0:17:36 | 0:17:37 | |
He's not doing his job properly. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
He's given them ammunition
to increase her sentence. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:40 | |
He's made it worse. | 0:17:40 | 0:17:44 | |
He's not doing his job,
he's not doing briefings and it's | 0:17:44 | 0:17:47 | |
looking at us if we go overseas
and get stuck. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
We are going to question
whether the Foreign Office can | 0:17:50 | 0:17:53 | |
actually support and help us
in this regard. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
Justine Greening? | 0:17:56 | 0:17:57 | |
I think Boris clearly said something
that simply wasn't correct. | 0:17:57 | 0:17:59 | |
He went to Parliament the next
day to make sure he set | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
the record straight. | 0:18:02 | 0:18:03 | |
He's spoken to the Iranian Foreign
Minister who's confirmed it had | 0:18:03 | 0:18:06 | |
nothing to do with the subsequent
steps the Iranian government took | 0:18:06 | 0:18:12 | |
and of course, as Charles says,
of course the Iranian press | 0:18:12 | 0:18:14 | |
is going to make hey on this
in the same way that, | 0:18:14 | 0:18:18 | |
had it been a different country,
our press probably would have | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
made the most of it. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
The bottom line is, we now need to,
as Kirstie says, need to focus | 0:18:24 | 0:18:28 | |
on making sure we get
Mrs Haghari-Radcliffe out of that | 0:18:28 | 0:18:32 | |
Iranian jail and back home
as a matter of urgency and that's | 0:18:32 | 0:18:34 | |
what the focus of the
Foreign Office should be. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:37 | |
Man up there on the right? | 0:18:37 | 0:18:38 | |
I think Boris Johnson had a chance
to correct his statement. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:42 | |
He actually said it was actually
taken out of context | 0:18:42 | 0:18:45 | |
and misrepresented so it's not
actually the initial crime. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:48 | |
Nobody's infallible. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:49 | |
It's actually the cover-up. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:51 | |
The problem is, you are actually
looking at somebody's | 0:18:51 | 0:18:53 | |
life at stake here. | 0:18:53 | 0:18:55 | |
You cannot have that kind of hubris. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:59 | |
You have to say, I messed up,
I probably got my facts wrong, | 0:18:59 | 0:19:02 | |
she was not there for that reason. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:04 | |
Just come out and say that. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:05 | |
Which he didn't. | 0:19:05 | 0:19:06 | |
All right. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:08 | |
Aditya? | 0:19:08 | 0:19:14 | |
I mean, the simple answer
to your question is, | 0:19:14 | 0:19:16 | |
he hasn't got the shame to resign
and she's not strong | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
enough to sack him. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
He couldn't bothered to meet
the family beforehand, | 0:19:25 | 0:19:29 | |
he couldn't be bothered to meet
the family and their MP, | 0:19:29 | 0:19:31 | |
he couldn't be bothered to get
the facts right and he couldn't be | 0:19:31 | 0:19:35 | |
bothered to give a proper apology. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:37 | |
He gave a faux apology and said
"if I've offended..." | 0:19:37 | 0:19:40 | |
blah blah blah. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:41 | |
I mean, the man is an utter joke. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:43 | |
This is meant to be our
diplomat in chief and this | 0:19:43 | 0:19:46 | |
is how he's behaving. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:47 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:48 | |
Very brief, Charles? | 0:19:48 | 0:19:49 | |
These things that are being
said are not being said | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
by Mr Radcliffe himself. | 0:19:52 | 0:19:53 | |
He's saying Boris Johnson's been
misrepresented by the regime | 0:19:53 | 0:20:00 | |
and he said in interview this
morning he thought it was a good | 0:20:00 | 0:20:03 | |
thing that this had at least... | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
No, no, no. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:06 | |
He's not happy about the situation
but he said it's a good thing it's | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
raised the saliants of the question. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:10 | |
One of the things the Foreign Office
is always trying to do, | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
and Boris Johnson shouldn't have
given into his own office like this, | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
is avoid questions like this. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:17 | |
They hate questions about protecting
British individual citizens | 0:20:17 | 0:20:19 | |
because they always say it
interferes with wider policy | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
and actually in a funny way,
this has turned out to bring more | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
attention, thank
goodness, on her case. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:26 | |
It's true that Richard Radcliffe has
said that it will bring it | 0:20:26 | 0:20:31 | |
further up Boris's inbox,
that's what he said. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:33 | |
He also said there is a direct link
between Johnson's comments | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
and what's happened,
according to today's Times. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
Yes, all right, we'll go on. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
Before we go on to another
topic though, let me say | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
where we are going to be next week. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:48 | |
Newcastle next Thursday,
Colchester the Thursday after that. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:55 | |
On the screen there are the details
of how to apply to come to take | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
part in these debates. | 0:20:58 | 0:20:59 | |
And now I want to take this question
from Tewar Aguiri, please? | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
Should wealthy individuals be
villainised for legally | 0:21:02 | 0:21:04 | |
making tax savings? | 0:21:04 | 0:21:05 | |
Well we know this is all
about tax havens abroad. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
Should wealthy individuals be
villainised for illegally | 0:21:09 | 0:21:17 | |
Should wealthy individuals be
villainised for legally | 0:21:17 | 0:21:19 | |
making tax savings. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:20 | |
Aditya, you've been in the van
of this, what's the answer? | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
Just to make it clear,
I'm not one of the reporters, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
I'm just a columnist as we say,
ten a penny, nowadays. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
Two a penny on this programme. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:33 | |
LAUGHTER. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:34 | |
The thing I find shocking
about this set of tax leaks, | 0:21:34 | 0:21:36 | |
which is a the latest in a series
of tax leaks, is how | 0:21:36 | 0:21:40 | |
normalised tax avoidance
is if you are in the super rich. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:43 | |
So nowadays it could be
the Queen's wealth adviser, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
you would think nothing
of shunting her cash off | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
to the Cayman Islands. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:51 | |
I don't think it's about
villainising the particular people. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:59 | |
I don't think you even need to say
the tax avoidance is illegal, | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
it's not, tax avoidance is perfectly
legal, it's just not legit. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:05 | |
It's breaking the spirit of the law,
it's not necessarily breaking | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
the letter of the law
and what we have to ask ourselves | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
is, how've we got to a situation
where the super rich in this country | 0:22:10 | 0:22:14 | |
send 30-40% of their wealth into tax
havens while the rest of us are pay | 0:22:14 | 0:22:21 | |
as you earn and have
to pay our taxes. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:24 | |
So we pay for the roads,
we pay for the food regulation, | 0:22:24 | 0:22:27 | |
we pay for the law and order
and the armies and the rest | 0:22:27 | 0:22:30 | |
of it and the super rich
don't pay their way. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:32 | |
How've we got to that situation
and how do we put that right? | 0:22:32 | 0:22:35 | |
I think that's what the Paradise
Papers that were issued this week, | 0:22:35 | 0:22:38 | |
that's the question it gives
us, it forces. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
We are at a point where
we have to make a choice. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:45 | |
Do we want money to go
to our schools, hospitals | 0:22:45 | 0:22:47 | |
and all the rest of it,
or do we want to shovel money | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
into the pockets of people
who already have plenty? | 0:22:51 | 0:22:53 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:55 | |
As the questioner said, if these
were legally made tax savings, | 0:22:55 | 0:23:01 | |
how do you change the practice? | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
I think the really big problem
is that politics in this country's | 0:23:04 | 0:23:10 | |
often shaped and influenced
by people who don't have the same | 0:23:10 | 0:23:14 | |
stake in the country
as the rest of us do. | 0:23:14 | 0:23:17 | |
So if you look at our newspapers,
the biggest newspapers are owned | 0:23:17 | 0:23:20 | |
by billionaire tax avoiders. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
I can mention a particular
newspaper that Charles Moore | 0:23:23 | 0:23:27 | |
writes for whose owners
have their own 80-acre | 0:23:27 | 0:23:31 | |
fortress island. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
We also have a Conservative Party
that scraped into Government in 2010 | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
and half the money for its election
campaign was given to it | 0:23:37 | 0:23:41 | |
by financial services which is right
at the centre of this | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
tax avoidance industry. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:45 | |
All right. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:47 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:23:47 | 0:23:49 | |
Let me go back to Tewar
who asked the question. | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
What do you make of that answer? | 0:23:52 | 0:23:55 | |
A very fair answer,
a good analysis of it. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:58 | |
But I feel that this
villainisation of the wealthy | 0:23:58 | 0:24:02 | |
individuals and companies,
it's actually the most effective way | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
so far to get wealthy individuals
to change their habits in some way | 0:24:06 | 0:24:09 | |
because I feel that parties on both
sides are kind of a mixture | 0:24:09 | 0:24:13 | |
of clueless and incompetent when it
comes to tax avoidance issues, | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
especially aggressive tax avoidance
that we have seen in the recent | 0:24:16 | 0:24:21 | |
issue and recent leaks. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
So I think these leaks kind of spur
on the party's interaction | 0:24:25 | 0:24:29 | |
but I don't think they actually
have their heads around how | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
to tackle it really. | 0:24:32 | 0:24:33 | |
But do you want to see
people villainised? | 0:24:33 | 0:24:37 | |
I'm not sure from your question,
or whether you think | 0:24:37 | 0:24:39 | |
they are wrongly villainised? | 0:24:39 | 0:24:40 | |
To an extent. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
Which way? | 0:24:42 | 0:24:45 | |
I think to the extent that it forces
them to look inwards and look | 0:24:45 | 0:24:48 | |
at their actual habits and how
they are purchasing. | 0:24:48 | 0:24:51 | |
For example, if you look
at Lewis Hamilton where he bought | 0:24:51 | 0:24:54 | |
his jet with an off shore company,
leased it to another company, | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
who leased it to a leasing company
who then leased it back to himself, | 0:24:57 | 0:25:01 | |
I mean by the time you're triple
leasing a product to yourself, | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
surely that's morally repugnant
and you should kind | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
of have a think about it. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:08 | |
All right. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:10 | |
Charles Moore. | 0:25:10 | 0:25:12 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:14 | |
The trouble with this story,
it's a huge bundle of all different | 0:25:15 | 0:25:18 | |
things, some of which are acceptable
and some of which are not. | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
One thing that's often said and has
been said here tonight is that it's | 0:25:21 | 0:25:25 | |
all about tax avoidance. | 0:25:25 | 0:25:28 | |
The matter of the Queen was raised. | 0:25:28 | 0:25:30 | |
She avoided no tax by
this, none whatever. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
It was not a tax avoidance scheme. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:35 | |
What happened was that the Duchy
of Lancaster invests her money | 0:25:35 | 0:25:40 | |
here and there and he decided to put
money into the Cayman Islands | 0:25:40 | 0:25:44 | |
and later into Guernsey
and into Bermuda I think. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:51 | |
A very small amount
of money it has to be said. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:58 | |
Her ownership of the particular
company was worth £3,000, | 0:25:58 | 0:26:02 | |
but anyway, it was put
in there and it was advised | 0:26:02 | 0:26:06 | |
by the Duchy of Lancaster
and the Duchy of Lancaster | 0:26:06 | 0:26:11 | |
is controlled by the Chancellor
of the Duchy of Lancaster | 0:26:11 | 0:26:13 | |
who is always in the Cabinet. | 0:26:13 | 0:26:15 | |
At that time when it was advised,
it was a Labour Government | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
and a Labour Chancellor of the Duchy
of Lancaster raised no | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
objection to any of this. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:24 | |
Probably rightly so,
in the sense that there was no | 0:26:24 | 0:26:27 | |
criminal or evil behaviour
here and the Queen pays tax | 0:26:27 | 0:26:32 | |
on all the income that
comes to her from it. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
So what exactly is it
that people are talking | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
about and are they saying... | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
The Queen, if you go
to the Cayman Islands | 0:26:40 | 0:26:43 | |
or Bermuda or Guernsey,
the Queen's head is on the currency, | 0:26:43 | 0:26:46 | |
the Queen's head is on the stamp. | 0:26:46 | 0:26:48 | |
Is she not allowed to... | 0:26:48 | 0:26:49 | |
You are just trying to justify
what is morally wrong at the end | 0:26:49 | 0:26:53 | |
of the day and she's the head
of the state and I would actually | 0:26:53 | 0:26:57 | |
blame the politicians not
closing the loopholes, | 0:26:57 | 0:27:00 | |
so we should ask the question
to the politicians, | 0:27:00 | 0:27:03 | |
what are you going to do about it? | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
You can discuss it until the cows
come home but please tell us, | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
what are you going to do
about the loopholes, | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
that's what we want to know. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:18 | |
I just think it's important to get
a particular example. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
What is wrong with
what the Queen did? | 0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | |
She didn't avoid tax. | 0:27:22 | 0:27:26 | |
It's in the Cayman Islands. | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
Stella Creasy? | 0:27:29 | 0:27:34 | |
Let me answer Charles's
question and your question. | 0:27:34 | 0:27:36 | |
If you can to each's satisfaction. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:41 | |
The concern I have is that she's got
money in a company called | 0:27:41 | 0:27:44 | |
Brighthouse and you might know know
who they are... | 0:27:44 | 0:27:46 | |
Yes, I do... | 0:27:46 | 0:27:47 | |
Charles, let her speak. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:48 | |
They charge an incredibly high rate
of interest and as somebody who's | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
spent years fighting what I call
these legal loan sharks, | 0:27:51 | 0:27:53 | |
it's deeply worrying to me that
people are profiting from them | 0:27:53 | 0:27:56 | |
because there is an ethical question
about investing in them. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:58 | |
So that's what I have to deal with. | 0:27:58 | 0:28:00 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:01 | |
And madam, let me take your question
head on because I agree with you. | 0:28:01 | 0:28:05 | |
Stella, maybe they should... | 0:28:05 | 0:28:07 | |
She's agreeing with you, keep quiet. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:10 | |
Let her agree with you
if you want to hear. | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
Maybe they should use the money
from the Cayman Islands | 0:28:13 | 0:28:15 | |
to repair Buckingham Palace,
for their repairs. | 0:28:15 | 0:28:18 | |
Can you move the microphone away
now, thank you very much. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:21 | |
Let me answer your question head
on because you are right. | 0:28:21 | 0:28:26 | |
Actually, there are things we can do
about this and a week ago, | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
so before the Paradise Papers came
out, I tabled an amendment | 0:28:29 | 0:28:32 | |
to the Finance Bill to close
the loophole where British | 0:28:32 | 0:28:35 | |
businesses have to pay tax
on commercial property sales in | 0:28:35 | 0:28:39 | |
the UK but foreign businesses don't. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:41 | |
It's worth £6 billion,
it's these offshore trusts | 0:28:41 | 0:28:45 | |
were people are salting
away commercial properties. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:48 | |
It would have been that magic money
tree to urgently invest | 0:28:48 | 0:28:50 | |
in our public services. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:52 | |
The Government voted it down. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:54 | |
Please help me get it in the budget
this time around because I don't | 0:28:54 | 0:28:57 | |
think we can afford to leave that
afford to leave that | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
tax loophole looming. | 0:29:00 | 0:29:01 | |
You, Sir? | 0:29:01 | 0:29:02 | |
I am 60 years of age. | 0:29:02 | 0:29:06 | |
I'm on the way out. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:09 | |
But three of my children aren't. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:14 | |
A 22-year-old, a 20-year-old
and an 11-year-old who're | 0:29:14 | 0:29:15 | |
living in austerity,
who're forced to get into debts. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:20 | |
With an NHS that needs £24 billion
to exist and we allow foreign | 0:29:20 | 0:29:26 | |
companies and people in this country
to evade, not avoid, evade tax | 0:29:26 | 0:29:33 | |
when the population of this country
is going through austerity. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:39 | |
Ok, Justine Greening? | 0:29:39 | 0:29:42 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:29:42 | 0:29:47 | |
People should absolutely
pay their fair share of tax. | 0:29:47 | 0:29:52 | |
But these Paradise Papers are
largely from years and years ago. | 0:29:52 | 0:29:58 | |
Some of the situations
we have just been talking | 0:29:58 | 0:30:02 | |
about were literally
from 2004, 2005. | 0:30:02 | 0:30:06 | |
I agree that all of those tax
loopholes needed to be closed | 0:30:06 | 0:30:10 | |
and that's precisely what we have
been doing since 2010. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:14 | |
We have closed so many of them that
we've actually raised £160 billion | 0:30:14 | 0:30:18 | |
of extra tax from those measures. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:22 | |
I have to say, Stella,
I heard you talking about your tax | 0:30:22 | 0:30:25 | |
measure that you want to do,
but before the last election, | 0:30:25 | 0:30:28 | |
the Labour Party failed to support
three key tax measures that | 0:30:28 | 0:30:31 | |
were in the Finance Bill
that we were trying | 0:30:31 | 0:30:35 | |
to get through Parliament
and nobody can understand... | 0:30:35 | 0:30:38 | |
Why did you vote down... | 0:30:38 | 0:30:40 | |
Hang on, Stella, you haven't
answered my question which was, | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
why did the Labour Party fail
to support three key measures, | 0:30:43 | 0:30:47 | |
one of them was actually
about stopping companies shifting | 0:30:47 | 0:30:50 | |
profits overseas so that we
could actually tax them. | 0:30:50 | 0:31:03 | |
I've just given you a clear
example of us trying | 0:31:03 | 0:31:05 | |
to close a tax loophole. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:06 | |
You voted it down last week,
Justine, I checked. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:08 | |
You haven't answered my question. | 0:31:08 | 0:31:11 | |
We had a general election called and
the Finance Bill went through it - | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
You haven't answered my question. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:16 | |
Because a general election
was called and so it | 0:31:16 | 0:31:18 | |
went through the washer. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:19 | |
No. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:20 | |
This is the same piece of finance
legislation, isn't it? | 0:31:20 | 0:31:22 | |
The situation - Isn't it, Justine? | 0:31:22 | 0:31:24 | |
This is the same
piece of legislation. | 0:31:24 | 0:31:26 | |
You could have closed the £6 billion
loophole that most other countries | 0:31:26 | 0:31:28 | |
have closed and you chose not to. | 0:31:28 | 0:31:30 | |
If I could finish. | 0:31:30 | 0:31:31 | |
This was about getting the Finance
Bill through Parliament before | 0:31:31 | 0:31:33 | |
the election was called. | 0:31:33 | 0:31:35 | |
There were three major measures
to reduce tax avoidance. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:37 | |
Labour wouldn't let them through. | 0:31:37 | 0:31:38 | |
The bottom line is that the gap
between how much money this country | 0:31:38 | 0:31:41 | |
is owed in tax and how much we're
actually being paid and collecting | 0:31:41 | 0:31:44 | |
has never been lower. | 0:31:44 | 0:31:45 | |
We need to do more - So did you vote
against my measure then? | 0:31:45 | 0:31:49 | |
If you could let me finish. | 0:31:49 | 0:31:50 | |
No, stop the tit-for-tat. | 0:31:50 | 0:31:51 | |
If you let me finish. | 0:31:51 | 0:31:52 | |
No, wait a minute. | 0:31:52 | 0:32:01 | |
I want to come back
to what was said and the key point | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
which Charles Moore was talking
about, the lady up there was talking | 0:32:04 | 0:32:07 | |
about, which is about money moving
abroad and being used abroad. | 0:32:07 | 0:32:10 | |
What do you make of what your former
leader David Cameron said? | 0:32:10 | 0:32:13 | |
You will remember the words,
no doubt, "some of these | 0:32:13 | 0:32:15 | |
schemes we have seen are,
frankly, morally wrong." | 0:32:15 | 0:32:17 | |
Do you agree with him that moving
money abroad, frankly, | 0:32:17 | 0:32:20 | |
is sometimes morally wrong
or are you in favour, as Charles is, | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
of the Queen investing
there and anybody investing | 0:32:23 | 0:32:25 | |
there who wants to? | 0:32:25 | 0:32:27 | |
I think there are two
aspects of this. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:29 | |
First of all, when there
is aggressive tax avoidance, | 0:32:29 | 0:32:31 | |
that should be shut down. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:33 | |
One of the things -
What is aggressive tax avoidance? | 0:32:33 | 0:32:35 | |
When people are deliberately moving
profits away from the UK for no | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
other reason than they're trying
to avoid tax. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:42 | |
That's why we brought
in the diverted profits tax | 0:32:42 | 0:32:44 | |
to precisely do that. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:46 | |
But the second point, this is why
I wanted to pick up Stella. | 0:32:46 | 0:32:51 | |
Is if, as a country,
we're not happy how the rules work, | 0:32:51 | 0:32:59 | |
then it's Parliament that should
change them, but it's pretty | 0:32:59 | 0:33:01 | |
galling to have a Labour MP telling
us that we can't change the rules | 0:33:01 | 0:33:06 | |
when they stood in the face
of changing them | 0:33:06 | 0:33:08 | |
before the election. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:09 | |
You have been in power
for almost seven years? | 0:33:09 | 0:33:11 | |
Indeed and we've passed 75 separate
tax avoidance measures. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:13 | |
You've failed. | 0:33:13 | 0:33:14 | |
You've been in power for over seven
years and you keep blaming | 0:33:14 | 0:33:17 | |
this Labour government. | 0:33:17 | 0:33:18 | |
We are in 2017. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:19 | |
Can you please list us
what you are going to do | 0:33:19 | 0:33:22 | |
as a Government so this
can be avoided? | 0:33:22 | 0:33:24 | |
We need to deal with the lawyers
who are involved and at | 0:33:24 | 0:33:26 | |
the centre of these? | 0:33:26 | 0:33:27 | |
Indeed. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:29 | |
They take part in this
and nothing happens to them. | 0:33:29 | 0:33:31 | |
How about you penalise
these lawyers? | 0:33:31 | 0:33:38 | |
OK, allow her to answer, thank you. | 0:33:38 | 0:33:40 | |
Sir, you're right. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:42 | |
First of all, we need
to continue closing this | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
gap that is smaller,
but still there, between what we're | 0:33:44 | 0:33:46 | |
owed and what we actually collect. | 0:33:46 | 0:33:48 | |
Secondly, we need to make sure that
on transparency and the new rules | 0:33:48 | 0:33:51 | |
that all these overseas territories
have to follow about being | 0:33:51 | 0:33:55 | |
clear-cut, who owns these companies
that are based there? | 0:33:55 | 0:33:57 | |
Whos owns and runs the Trusts. | 0:33:57 | 0:34:03 | |
We need to make sure that
information is being shared | 0:34:03 | 0:34:07 | |
with HMRC, which now it has to be
automatically and then | 0:34:07 | 0:34:17 | |
thing is we need to make sure that
HMRC is staffed up and | 0:34:18 | 0:34:22 | |
resourced up properly to be
able to go after that. | 0:34:22 | 0:34:24 | |
That's precisely what we're now
doing because we changed the rules | 0:34:24 | 0:34:27 | |
and we can now make sure we continue
to close the tax gap. | 0:34:27 | 0:34:30 | |
But part of this is continuing
to stay up-to-date. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:32 | |
Because as we close down these
schemes, accountants and lawyers | 0:34:32 | 0:34:34 | |
will try and find out new ones. | 0:34:34 | 0:34:36 | |
That is why this business
is never really complete. | 0:34:36 | 0:34:38 | |
Hang on a second. | 0:34:38 | 0:34:39 | |
The woman there, yes. | 0:34:39 | 0:34:40 | |
This is a question of
morality not legality. | 0:34:40 | 0:34:42 | |
Someone asked me the other day -
what would I do if I had | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
all these millions of pounds,
wouldn't I move it offshore as well? | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
Well, I can certainly
say I would not do that | 0:34:48 | 0:34:57 | |
a lot of people in this room
would be able | 0:34:57 | 0:34:59 | |
to say exactly | 0:34:59 | 0:35:09 | |
The same. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:16 | |
You wouldn't? | 0:35:16 | 0:35:18 | |
Wouldn't. | 0:35:18 | 0:35:19 | |
You wouldn't. | 0:35:19 | 0:35:20 | |
Kirstie Allsopp. | 0:35:20 | 0:35:21 | |
The financial adviser,
Martin Lewis, did a Twitter poll | 0:35:21 | 0:35:23 | |
today and he asked people
whether they would give cash | 0:35:23 | 0:35:25 | |
to a builder in the knowledge
that this was breaking tax rules, | 0:35:25 | 0:35:28 | |
but giving them a discount. | 0:35:28 | 0:35:29 | |
53% of his respondents
said they would. | 0:35:29 | 0:35:31 | |
The one thing about this I object
to is that the belief that it's just | 0:35:31 | 0:35:35 | |
the rich that avoid tax. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:36 | |
No-one has ever come toll me
and said, "I want to pay | 0:35:36 | 0:35:39 | |
£250,000 for a property,
not £249,950 because I want to pay | 0:35:39 | 0:35:41 | |
the higher stamp duty." | 0:35:41 | 0:35:42 | |
We live in a culture
of tax avoidance. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:44 | |
Every time you go to an airport
there's a sign saying | 0:35:44 | 0:35:47 | |
"tax-free, tax-free." | 0:35:47 | 0:35:48 | |
People are actively
encouraged not to pay tax, | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
to the bottom our society,
people are doing. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:57 | |
Let her finish, she's only
just started speaking | 0:35:57 | 0:35:59 | |
just started speaking. | 0:35:59 | 0:36:00 | |
Aditya, I know what
you're going to say... | 0:36:00 | 0:36:02 | |
Now wait a moment, wait a moment
everybody, just let Kirstie | 0:36:02 | 0:36:04 | |
have her say and I'll bring you in. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:06 | |
There's no good shouting out. | 0:36:06 | 0:36:08 | |
I know what you're going to say,
that if you are PAYE, | 0:36:08 | 0:36:10 | |
you cannot avoid tax. | 0:36:10 | 0:36:12 | |
No. | 0:36:12 | 0:36:13 | |
But there is enormous... | 0:36:13 | 0:36:14 | |
No, if you go to duty-free you're
not actually avoiding... | 0:36:14 | 0:36:16 | |
There's a difference - Yes, you are. | 0:36:16 | 0:36:18 | |
There's a difference
between using schemes | 0:36:18 | 0:36:19 | |
which the Government wants
you to use, like | 0:36:19 | 0:36:21 | |
an ISA, for instance. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:22 | |
And then doing this
thing of leasing jets | 0:36:22 | 0:36:24 | |
back-and-forth three times over. | 0:36:24 | 0:36:25 | |
Obviously there's a difference,
but if we all need to have a moral | 0:36:25 | 0:36:31 | |
requirement to pay tax,
then why, when we go | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
through the airport,
does it say, "duty-free" all over. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:35 | |
Why are we being encouraged to spend
money on alcohol and cigarettes, | 0:36:35 | 0:36:38 | |
which is valuable money
for the Exchequer tax-free actually? | 0:36:38 | 0:36:40 | |
No, hold on. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:45 | |
Don't conflate a few pounds saved
on a packet of fags. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
No. | 0:36:48 | 0:36:50 | |
With millions being saved -
I'm not conflating it what I'm | 0:36:50 | 0:36:53 | |
saying is, we have a culture of tax
avoidance in this country | 0:36:53 | 0:36:55 | |
and if it's morally wrong to avoid
tax, it's morally wrong | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
to avoid tax. | 0:36:58 | 0:36:59 | |
No, hold on. | 0:36:59 | 0:37:00 | |
Let's hear some more. | 0:37:00 | 0:37:01 | |
The man in red there, you sir, yes. | 0:37:01 | 0:37:04 | |
Kirstie Allsopp equates escaping
cigarette tax as the same | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
as the Duke of Westminster. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:08 | |
The Duke of Westminster
paid 0% inheritance tax. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:10 | |
They are completely different. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:17 | |
If he had paid the inheritance tax
that all of us would have | 0:37:17 | 0:37:20 | |
paid and have to pay,
and I pay my tax, that | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
could have supported one day's
expenditure in the NHS. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:24 | |
Hold on. | 0:37:24 | 0:37:26 | |
Apple pays 5% corporation tax,
how much do you pay? | 0:37:26 | 0:37:28 | |
So let us be clear about this. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:30 | |
Let us be clear about this. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:31 | |
I think you've made the point. | 0:37:31 | 0:37:33 | |
I want tax avoidance
to be made illegal. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:37 | |
I would like tax avoidance,
which is institutionalised tax | 0:37:37 | 0:37:39 | |
evasion, to be made illegal. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:40 | |
Charles Moore. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:46 | |
I think it's very important
to understand that a lot | 0:37:46 | 0:37:50 | |
of the wealth of a great many people
is tied up with what people | 0:37:50 | 0:37:53 | |
sometimes call tax avoidance. | 0:37:53 | 0:37:57 | |
For example, if you have your house,
one house, you pay no capital - | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
you pay no tax on selling it. | 0:38:00 | 0:38:02 | |
How many houses do you have? | 0:38:02 | 0:38:04 | |
No, I'm saying... | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:38:07 | 0:38:09 | |
That's the point I'm making. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:11 | |
Most people who own a house,
which is the majority | 0:38:11 | 0:38:14 | |
of the population, own one house. | 0:38:14 | 0:38:15 | |
No, no. | 0:38:15 | 0:38:16 | |
No, no, no. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:21 | |
When they sell their house,
they pay no capital gains tax | 0:38:21 | 0:38:23 | |
on it and the result -
They pay stamp duty. | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
Yes, but they don't
pay capital gains tax. | 0:38:26 | 0:38:36 | |
If they were to have a house of half
the size and invest money | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
in the stock market,
they would pay tax. | 0:38:44 | 0:38:46 | |
They live in the house. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:47 | |
Of course. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:48 | |
The point about this... | 0:38:48 | 0:38:49 | |
It's a very bad... | 0:38:49 | 0:38:50 | |
It's another world. | 0:38:50 | 0:38:51 | |
It's another world. | 0:38:51 | 0:38:52 | |
No, it's not another world. | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
The point is, the wealth of most
British people is distorted | 0:38:54 | 0:38:56 | |
by the fact that they don't pay
capital gains tax on their house | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
and therefore they put
all their money into their house. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:04 | |
This doesn't happen -
for example this doesn't - | 0:39:04 | 0:39:06 | |
that is why the houses
are so expensive. | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
It doesn't happen like that
in Germany, for example. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:10 | |
Therefore, you were encouraged
by the tax system to avoid | 0:39:10 | 0:39:20 | |
the capital gains tax by keeping
all of your | 0:39:20 | 0:39:22 | |
money in your house. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:24 | |
Charles, the man with spectacles
there says you're conflating | 0:39:24 | 0:39:26 | |
two different things. | 0:39:26 | 0:39:29 | |
You're conflating two
different things. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:30 | |
If we just go back to the original
question about Lewis Hamilton. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
On his tax form he put the business
jet was for a percentage of business | 0:39:33 | 0:39:36 | |
and percentage of leisure. | 0:39:36 | 0:39:37 | |
Now he should have paid tax on that. | 0:39:37 | 0:39:39 | |
The Isle of Man just stamped it off
and off he went he flew to Hawaii. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:43 | |
It's a nonsense. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:44 | |
The second point, you talk
about housing, another | 0:39:44 | 0:39:46 | |
interesting point as well. | 0:39:46 | 0:39:47 | |
Again, I think you're conflating two
different things here. | 0:39:47 | 0:39:49 | |
Presumably, that one
that you've described, | 0:39:49 | 0:39:51 | |
Lewis Hamilton and the Isle of Man. | 0:39:51 | 0:39:52 | |
It's as clear as glass. | 0:39:52 | 0:39:54 | |
HMRC will be after him, won't they? | 0:39:54 | 0:39:55 | |
They are looking into it. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:57 | |
They are looking into the... | 0:39:57 | 0:39:58 | |
Sorry. | 0:39:58 | 0:39:59 | |
Because - Can I make another
point, is the lobbyist | 0:39:59 | 0:40:01 | |
that is going on here
as well and the revolving door | 0:40:01 | 0:40:04 | |
between HMRC and the top four firms | 0:40:04 | 0:40:05 | |
Deloitte - That is true. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:07 | |
They spend huge sums of money
lobbying the Government and then | 0:40:07 | 0:40:09 | |
HMRC don't have the expertise
so they're bringing in these private | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
consultants to help draft law
and they're just going back down | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
going back down and going -
guys, well we're know what's | 0:40:15 | 0:40:17 | |
going on the back door, | 0:40:17 | 0:40:18 | |
we'll just devise a plan
to get round it. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:21 | |
It's not being addressed. | 0:40:21 | 0:40:22 | |
This gentleman is talking
about what's called | 0:40:22 | 0:40:23 | |
the common purse payment. | 0:40:23 | 0:40:24 | |
What the Government does,
which is a cosy deal with the Isle | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
of Man, that allows them to do this. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:29 | |
Yep. | 0:40:29 | 0:40:30 | |
There are always choices,
just as there's a debate | 0:40:30 | 0:40:32 | |
to be had about fairness. | 0:40:32 | 0:40:34 | |
I don't think it's fair that British
businesses have to pay a tax that | 0:40:34 | 0:40:37 | |
non-UK businesses don't pay. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:38 | |
Exactly. | 0:40:38 | 0:40:39 | |
I don't understand why anybody
would hold UK commercial property | 0:40:39 | 0:40:41 | |
overseas in an overseas trust. | 0:40:41 | 0:40:43 | |
But they are. | 0:40:43 | 0:40:44 | |
Yeah. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:45 | |
We as taxpayers are paying
for the consequence of that. | 0:40:45 | 0:40:47 | |
So the question for all of us is -
what are we going to do about it? | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
Because our public finances
and our - You are in power. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:54 | |
You are in the House of Commons -
She's not in power. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:57 | |
I'm trying. | 0:40:57 | 0:40:58 | |
I'm trying, sir. | 0:40:58 | 0:40:59 | |
I promise you. | 0:40:59 | 0:41:00 | |
Labour and Conservative
no-one has tackled this, | 0:41:00 | 0:41:06 | |
transfer pricing has been | 0:41:06 | 0:41:08 | |
going on for years and both parties
have had opportunities to stop that. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
It sounds as though you should be
in the House of Commons. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:14 | |
Justine Greening. | 0:41:14 | 0:41:19 | |
We have been taking measures
companies who shift their profits | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
from the UK to another jurisdiction,
often one of these overseas | 0:41:22 | 0:41:26 | |
territories perhaps. That's what the
diverted profits tax was all about | 0:41:26 | 0:41:32 | |
and the amount that companies pay on
that diverted profit is more than | 0:41:32 | 0:41:36 | |
they would have paid if they'd had
the profit here in the UK. So | 0:41:36 | 0:41:44 | |
punitive level compared to
corporation tax here. The point is | 0:41:44 | 0:41:46 | |
to make sure we get more of profits
truly generated here in the UK | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
registered in the UK so that it's
properly taxed but that's - those | 0:41:50 | 0:41:55 | |
are the steps reare taking.
We will continue to make sure we | 0:41:55 | 0:41:58 | |
look at taking as many as we need to
keep closing this tax gap. It's at | 0:41:58 | 0:42:03 | |
the lowest level ever in the UK echl
he with want it to get down to zero. | 0:42:03 | 0:42:07 | |
I want to go back to Kirstie on the
point he made. You commented it was | 0:42:07 | 0:42:13 | |
true that the HMRC, the tax
collectors, are being advised by | 0:42:13 | 0:42:17 | |
people who have other interests at
heart? Poacher turned gamekeeper, | 0:42:17 | 0:42:22 | |
isn't it David? I don't know. That
is what goes on. One point you work | 0:42:22 | 0:42:26 | |
for - that is what you are talking
about, poacher turned gamekeeper. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:30 | |
Don't go back to him, he's spoken
plenty! The problem is that if | 0:42:30 | 0:42:36 | |
you're an expert in an area, you
sometimes work for the Government | 0:42:36 | 0:42:40 | |
and you sometimes work for private
organisations and you go back and | 0:42:40 | 0:42:43 | |
forward. It doesn't make it OK.
Stella, when did I say it was OK? I | 0:42:43 | 0:42:48 | |
never said it was OK. I agreed with
the gentleman it happens. I never | 0:42:48 | 0:42:52 | |
said it was OK. I don't think any of
it is OK. I've never said any of | 0:42:52 | 0:42:56 | |
it's OK. It's definitely not OK. I
said I think we have a culture of | 0:42:56 | 0:43:02 | |
tax avoidance across the whole of
the country. The former Chancellor | 0:43:02 | 0:43:05 | |
struck a sweetheart tax deal with
Google to allow them off their tax | 0:43:05 | 0:43:08 | |
bill and then said is was a good
deal for Britain. You don't even | 0:43:08 | 0:43:13 | |
need to look at the HMRC look at our
elected politicians. Look at the guy | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
who used to be senior in the
Conservative Party, Ashcroft, a | 0:43:17 | 0:43:24 | |
non--dom. All right, let's go on.
Thank you. Let us take a question | 0:43:24 | 0:43:30 | |
now from Nathan Langford. As a
17-year-old schoolboy, how is it I | 0:43:30 | 0:43:34 | |
know how to respect women better
than some of our Government | 0:43:34 | 0:43:38 | |
ministers do?
APPLAUSE. | 0:43:38 | 0:43:44 | |
Justine Greening. I think it's a
really good point. I think when you | 0:43:51 | 0:43:55 | |
look at what's been happening in the
States with the scandal around | 0:43:55 | 0:44:02 | |
Harvey Weinstein and what about
going on in parliament across all | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
parties, frankly, there is a need
for a massive culture change but | 0:44:06 | 0:44:11 | |
backed up with rule changes. If you
look at Westminster, the problem is | 0:44:11 | 0:44:14 | |
that for too long if people have had
problems, not just women, but also | 0:44:14 | 0:44:19 | |
men, there hasn't really been a way
for them to get them properly | 0:44:19 | 0:44:23 | |
followed up. Often they have been
left with talking to people within | 0:44:23 | 0:44:26 | |
their party. Often the party they
want to build a coo career in. They | 0:44:26 | 0:44:30 | |
have not come forward. What we are
seeing across the board, whether | 0:44:30 | 0:44:35 | |
it's showbusiness orient tinment or
politics, people who perhaps didn't | 0:44:35 | 0:44:39 | |
realise other people have
experienced these issues now coming | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
forward. I think that's good, but I
do think we need to make sure we | 0:44:42 | 0:44:45 | |
have the processes in place within
parliament and I think parties need | 0:44:45 | 0:44:51 | |
to bring forward, we are doing it,
Stella will talk about the Labour | 0:44:51 | 0:44:55 | |
Party, a code of conduct so we set
ourselves a high standards. Finally, | 0:44:55 | 0:45:00 | |
you made the point about your
understanding of respect. | 0:45:00 | 0:45:04 | |
Absolutely, schools have a key role
to play in all of this. One of the | 0:45:04 | 0:45:08 | |
reasons we are updating
relationships and sex education for | 0:45:08 | 0:45:12 | |
the first time is 17 years is that
it's important because that stays | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
up-to-date and relevant for young
people in our education system right | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
now. 25 years ago when I was selling
classified sales a guy came up to me | 0:45:19 | 0:45:29 | |
and did a pelvic thrust behind #4e
me I told him to F-off at the top of | 0:45:29 | 0:45:35 | |
my house. I ended up with a threat
of a written warning, not him. A | 0:45:35 | 0:45:39 | |
written warning? I was threatened
with a written warning, not him. I | 0:45:39 | 0:45:43 | |
thought it was grossly unfair. I
think, 25 years later, that wouldn't | 0:45:43 | 0:45:48 | |
happen. But this is about power. I
rang a friend this morning, you know | 0:45:48 | 0:45:54 | |
you are coming on Question Time you
do a bit of chatting. She said to me | 0:45:54 | 0:46:01 | |
something interesting. Said of all
the incidents that happened to me it | 0:46:01 | 0:46:06 | |
was never a member of staff who was
June or to me. It's not about sex | 0:46:06 | 0:46:12 | |
it's about power. It's about people.
It's about people who are senior to | 0:46:12 | 0:46:18 | |
people that are below them and
exercising a degree of control over | 0:46:18 | 0:46:23 | |
them. When it happens you remember
it and you remember it forever. I'm | 0:46:23 | 0:46:28 | |
quite a robust person, I'm quite
capable of telling people to F off | 0:46:28 | 0:46:33 | |
and I remember it. What I would say
is, there's one other point. I would | 0:46:33 | 0:46:38 | |
address it to the young man. I am
Rae sorry - Nathan. Nathan. I was | 0:46:38 | 0:46:45 | |
recently given a diversity document
from a production company I do work | 0:46:45 | 0:46:48 | |
for. It said in it, "use of
affectionate terms such as "darling" | 0:46:48 | 0:46:56 | |
will constitute sexual harassment."
I said to HR, I think this is wrong. | 0:46:56 | 0:47:00 | |
I don't think the use of the word
"darling" constitutes sexual | 0:47:00 | 0:47:04 | |
harassment. I'm still battling with
them about it. I think it's an | 0:47:04 | 0:47:09 | |
incredibly important issue, but it's
about power and abuse, it's not | 0:47:09 | 0:47:14 | |
about that fantastic sexual humour
and banter that we all need in our | 0:47:14 | 0:47:17 | |
lives and we all have. I think it's
about abuse of power and it has to | 0:47:17 | 0:47:21 | |
be stamped out. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
Nathan you asked the question, how
is it that you know how to respect | 0:47:29 | 0:47:33 | |
women better than some Government
ministers do? What is your answer to | 0:47:33 | 0:47:36 | |
that question? I'm completely
astounded. Like we have seen with | 0:47:36 | 0:47:42 | |
Michael Fallon and other Government
ministers the sex toy minister, it's | 0:47:42 | 0:47:46 | |
absolutely disgusting. I agree with
what Kirstie said. This has to bring | 0:47:46 | 0:47:52 | |
about some kind of change. If it
goes too far that men and women | 0:47:52 | 0:47:57 | |
can't talk to each other touch each
other friendly in the workplace, | 0:47:57 | 0:48:02 | |
that's how u ares are started that
is how people get on. 40% of people | 0:48:02 | 0:48:06 | |
meet in their workplace. If men and
women feel estranged from each other | 0:48:06 | 0:48:13 | |
that's corrosive to society? You
think this is a generational thing. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:20 | |
When you say, I was a 17-year-old
schoolboy you mean you are of a | 0:48:20 | 0:48:25 | |
generation that respects women in
the way that an older generation | 0:48:25 | 0:48:28 | |
doesn't? Not entirely! | 0:48:28 | 0:48:39 | |
We had an assembly on lad culture.
We were shown a video where men and | 0:48:39 | 0:48:45 | |
women were saying horrible things
about women. Everyone was on the | 0:48:45 | 0:48:52 | |
whole quite serious abouts it in
assembly. When we got out of the | 0:48:52 | 0:48:56 | |
door people started joking and think
- it doesn't apply to me. I could | 0:48:56 | 0:48:59 | |
have a joke about it and a laugh
about my mates. Part of that is, you | 0:48:59 | 0:49:07 | |
know, looking quite sheepish or
whatever in front of your mates if | 0:49:07 | 0:49:09 | |
you agree with what has been said in
the assembly or whatever. Part of it | 0:49:09 | 0:49:14 | |
Right. Is not realising that that
kind of joke, that kind of humour is | 0:49:14 | 0:49:22 | |
part of the problem. That has to be
stamped out. It's because you don't | 0:49:22 | 0:49:32 | |
have power yet. | 0:49:32 | 0:49:42 | |
She is right. People exploit their
power. They exploit it in sexual | 0:49:46 | 0:49:51 | |
matters and in terms of money and in
terms of ma MEP layings. Not all | 0:49:51 | 0:49:58 | |
powerful people do that. That is the
temptation. How do you deal with it | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
in the House of Commons, in
politics. | 0:50:01 | 0:50:13 | |
When it is tolerated because it
shouldn't have been when somebody | 0:50:13 | 0:50:16 | |
can be ruined by an accusation you
have have new problems. | 0:50:16 | 0:50:19 | |
Poor Mr Carl Sergeant who seems
to have killed himself | 0:50:22 | 0:50:24 | |
at the beginning of the week
is an example of this. | 0:50:24 | 0:50:27 | |
He was chucked out of the Welsh
government and suspended | 0:50:27 | 0:50:31 | |
from the Labour Party and he never
knew, and he will never know, | 0:50:31 | 0:50:34 | |
what he was accused of. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:44 | |
This seems to me terribly wrong
and it's again this sort of the rush | 0:50:48 | 0:50:51 | |
that Kirstie referred to earlier
on the programme in another matter | 0:50:51 | 0:50:54 | |
that, people are more keen to accuse
people than they are to get | 0:50:54 | 0:50:57 | |
to the bottom of this
and sort it out. | 0:50:57 | 0:50:59 | |
We have got to have proper
process and proper forms | 0:50:59 | 0:51:01 | |
of inquiry to deal with it,
we have to be serious | 0:51:01 | 0:51:04 | |
about it rather than just
accusing one another. | 0:51:04 | 0:51:06 | |
All right. | 0:51:06 | 0:51:07 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:51:07 | 0:51:08 | |
So, Stella Creasy, is that
an argument that does apply | 0:51:08 | 0:51:11 | |
to Carl Sergeant and the way
he was treated? | 0:51:11 | 0:51:13 | |
So, I know people might want to get
into individual cases, | 0:51:13 | 0:51:15 | |
I'm not going to because I'm very
mindful that there will be alleged | 0:51:15 | 0:51:19 | |
victims, there will be family
members of Mr Sergeant who might be | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
watching this tonight and it's
a tragedy that Carl has died. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:24 | |
I worked with Carl, I knew Carl. | 0:51:24 | 0:51:26 | |
What I do want to talk about,
so where I can agree with you, | 0:51:26 | 0:51:31 | |
Charles, is about the importance
of a process and what we have to do, | 0:51:31 | 0:51:34 | |
particularly in Parliament
and public life is take this away | 0:51:34 | 0:51:37 | |
from the politics of it. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:38 | |
A very, very wonderful young woman
in the Labour Party called | 0:51:38 | 0:51:41 | |
Becks Bailey went forward
and was given a careers advice | 0:51:41 | 0:51:44 | |
lesson when she tried
to report a serious assault. | 0:51:44 | 0:51:46 | |
That must never happen. | 0:51:46 | 0:51:48 | |
We need people who're capable
of dealing with people | 0:51:48 | 0:51:50 | |
who've suffered trauma. | 0:51:50 | 0:51:54 | |
That's what we are talking about. | 0:51:54 | 0:51:57 | |
The challenge when you are dealing
with this is one of the few things | 0:51:57 | 0:52:00 | |
that happens to people and people
always question you. | 0:52:00 | 0:52:02 | |
So if you were to say,
I had been burglared, | 0:52:02 | 0:52:04 | |
nobody would say to you,
are you sure, what was your house | 0:52:04 | 0:52:07 | |
looking like at the time,
tell me about the windows, | 0:52:07 | 0:52:10 | |
tell me about the doors. | 0:52:10 | 0:52:12 | |
Sadly what happens with this,
partly because with power comes | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
the capacity to shame people
and to silence them through shame, | 0:52:16 | 0:52:18 | |
that's what we have to be
able to break through. | 0:52:18 | 0:52:24 | |
There have been some incredibly
brave people who've come forward | 0:52:24 | 0:52:26 | |
in the last couple of weeks. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
The duty and responsibility
on all of us absolutely is to get | 0:52:29 | 0:52:32 | |
the process right but to do it
in a way that makes sense | 0:52:32 | 0:52:35 | |
to victims, victims of sexual
violence, sexual assault | 0:52:35 | 0:52:37 | |
and the problems that
we are seeing now. | 0:52:37 | 0:52:38 | |
We are a long way off that. | 0:52:38 | 0:52:43 | |
We can get there if we take away
the hysteria and the idea that | 0:52:43 | 0:52:46 | |
somehow there is a witch-hunt
and recognise how difficulties | 0:52:46 | 0:52:48 | |
for people to come forward
because of that concept of shame. | 0:52:48 | 0:52:51 | |
That's not just in politics,
that's across society. | 0:52:51 | 0:52:53 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:52:53 | 0:52:54 | |
You in grey there? | 0:52:54 | 0:52:55 | |
I think that Nathan made a very,
very important point. | 0:52:55 | 0:53:04 | |
He said, as a 17-year-old,
he has more respect for women | 0:53:04 | 0:53:07 | |
than some politicians. | 0:53:07 | 0:53:08 | |
Charles, you said that is
because you do not have power "yet". | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
By you saying that,
you are insinuating that | 0:53:11 | 0:53:13 | |
when he becomes a very powerful man
that he would then abuse women | 0:53:13 | 0:53:16 | |
and that is not right. | 0:53:16 | 0:53:18 | |
What we have is a culture
where sexual abuse and sexual | 0:53:18 | 0:53:21 | |
harassment towards women is accepted
because men are powerful | 0:53:21 | 0:53:23 | |
and that is clearly not right. | 0:53:23 | 0:53:27 | |
You cannot insinuate that
because he is not powerful then | 0:53:27 | 0:53:30 | |
that's why he doesn't respect women. | 0:53:30 | 0:53:33 | |
Respect of women should be
a universal standard, | 0:53:33 | 0:53:36 | |
it should be by politicians... | 0:53:36 | 0:53:37 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:42 | |
All right. | 0:53:42 | 0:53:45 | |
Regardless if you are powerful,
if you are not powerful, | 0:53:45 | 0:53:48 | |
it does not matter. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
So making that statement is
perpetuating a very, very bad idea. | 0:53:51 | 0:53:53 | |
It is what you said, Charles? | 0:53:53 | 0:53:55 | |
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself
clear, I completely agree with that. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:58 | |
The point I'm making
is about the temptation that people | 0:53:58 | 0:54:00 | |
get when they get into power
and this is what the abuse that has | 0:54:00 | 0:54:04 | |
to be looked at all the time. | 0:54:04 | 0:54:05 | |
It's not an excuse for it
but I'm explaining it. | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
But Charles I also think
there is a generational issue | 0:54:08 | 0:54:10 | |
here perhaps around what a younger
generation thinks is acceptable | 0:54:10 | 0:54:13 | |
and I think attitudes have moved
on and I have to say | 0:54:13 | 0:54:16 | |
in the right way frankly. | 0:54:16 | 0:54:17 | |
Aditya? | 0:54:17 | 0:54:27 | |
I think that's right. | 0:54:30 | 0:54:32 | |
There is a cultural problem
here of trivialising women, | 0:54:32 | 0:54:34 | |
sometimes express itself very
violent, sometimes it | 0:54:34 | 0:54:36 | |
expresses itself in the pages
of our newspapers and media. | 0:54:36 | 0:54:39 | |
I'm a loyal reader of Charles Moore
so before I came on, like Kirstie, | 0:54:39 | 0:54:42 | |
I did a bit of research
and I remember this piece Charles | 0:54:42 | 0:54:45 | |
wrote for the Spectator
in 2015 around the time | 0:54:45 | 0:54:47 | |
of the Labour Leadership election
and it was titled have Yvette Cooper | 0:54:47 | 0:54:50 | |
and Liz Kendall got the looks
for the Labour Leadership and there | 0:54:50 | 0:54:52 | |
was an amazing conclusion... | 0:54:52 | 0:54:54 | |
A writer never writes
his own headline. | 0:54:54 | 0:55:00 | |
An amazing conclusion. | 0:55:00 | 0:55:03 | |
A writer never writes his own
headline, as you know, | 0:55:03 | 0:55:05 | |
you're a journalist. | 0:55:05 | 0:55:06 | |
I do but I'm sure you
wrote this bit though. | 0:55:06 | 0:55:09 | |
You said there is something quite
appealing about Yvette Cooper, | 0:55:09 | 0:55:11 | |
he slightly French crop
and her black-and-white dress. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
Serious policies
seriously discussed. | 0:55:15 | 0:55:23 | |
There is an issue which affects our
politics in which people are treated | 0:55:23 | 0:55:29 | |
as a lesser because they're women
or because they're from ethnic | 0:55:29 | 0:55:32 | |
minorities or because they come
from working class backgrounds | 0:55:32 | 0:55:34 | |
and that's what we
need to get rid of. | 0:55:34 | 0:55:44 | |
The woman there? | 0:55:46 | 0:55:48 | |
I was listening to what Justine said
and it was a bit worrying | 0:55:48 | 0:55:51 | |
that she said they released
a code of conduct. | 0:55:51 | 0:55:53 | |
You would think that that would be
something that should have already | 0:55:53 | 0:55:56 | |
been done before you made
Parliament. | 0:55:56 | 0:55:58 | |
It's a shame there is not a lot
of women in Parliament | 0:55:58 | 0:56:01 | |
but these kind of situations
are going to deter women from even | 0:56:01 | 0:56:03 | |
wanting to be in Parliament
because it's those things in the way | 0:56:03 | 0:56:06 | |
that it's treated and handled,
it's not just something that's | 0:56:06 | 0:56:09 | |
happened the past three or four
years, it's a generation generation | 0:56:09 | 0:56:11 | |
of culture that's continued
and nothing's been done about it. | 0:56:11 | 0:56:15 | |
Joining why suddenly
now, it's media. | 0:56:15 | 0:56:18 | |
So what we are doing,
there was an inquiry a long time ago | 0:56:18 | 0:56:21 | |
when there were issues like this
in the past around standards | 0:56:21 | 0:56:24 | |
in public life and what we are doing
now is frankly making sure it's | 0:56:24 | 0:56:28 | |
actually fit for purpose today
because of the problems | 0:56:28 | 0:56:30 | |
we can see today. | 0:56:30 | 0:56:33 | |
As we have been saying on the panel,
a big part of this is Parliament | 0:56:33 | 0:56:40 | |
as a work place, having some
independent support and grievance | 0:56:40 | 0:56:43 | |
processes for people who work
there who need to raise issues | 0:56:43 | 0:56:49 | |
and get them dealt with. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:56 | |
And within the parties,
that doesn't work as effectively, | 0:56:56 | 0:56:58 | |
which is why we need it. | 0:56:58 | 0:56:59 | |
The man in the spectacles
there, at the very back? | 0:56:59 | 0:57:02 | |
You with your hand up, yes,
be quick, if you would? | 0:57:02 | 0:57:04 | |
Thank you. | 0:57:04 | 0:57:05 | |
What I suggest that Mrs May
was to appoint a Minister | 0:57:05 | 0:57:08 | |
for Manner and courtesy,
and I would suggest Jacob Rees-Mogg. | 0:57:08 | 0:57:10 | |
OK. | 0:57:10 | 0:57:11 | |
You, Sir? | 0:57:11 | 0:57:12 | |
You have spoken already I think. | 0:57:12 | 0:57:14 | |
You, Sir, briefly, if you would? | 0:57:14 | 0:57:15 | |
I think there is an element
of we need to be very mindful | 0:57:15 | 0:57:19 | |
of people being accused in terms
of levels of protection. | 0:57:19 | 0:57:21 | |
A prime example sadly
is the Welsh MP. | 0:57:21 | 0:57:23 | |
I'm very mindful that we have had
a lot of celebrities | 0:57:23 | 0:57:25 | |
and a lot of politicians,
ex-service personnel, | 0:57:25 | 0:57:27 | |
who've been effectively hounded
erroneously as it turns out | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
but their identity was splashed
across all the social media. | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
If an alleger is able to have some
degree of anonymity until such | 0:57:32 | 0:57:38 | |
an individual was charged or twos
to court, surely they | 0:57:38 | 0:57:42 | |
are also entitled to... | 0:57:42 | 0:57:45 | |
This is such an important point
because we don't have anonymity | 0:57:45 | 0:57:48 | |
for any type of crime in this
country so if you single out this, | 0:57:48 | 0:57:52 | |
the message that you are sending,
and we have worked so hard | 0:57:52 | 0:57:55 | |
to challenge this within
the police and the wider CPS, | 0:57:55 | 0:57:58 | |
is that we don't believe people,
we set a different standard of truth | 0:57:58 | 0:58:02 | |
about this particular type of crime
than we do for any other | 0:58:02 | 0:58:05 | |
type of crime. | 0:58:05 | 0:58:06 | |
Why are you asking for... | 0:58:06 | 0:58:09 | |
I'm not saying that somebody who's
served in the military for arguments | 0:58:09 | 0:58:13 | |
sake, somebody who's a former
Home Secretary, a former | 0:58:13 | 0:58:16 | |
politician, and unfortunately
this Welsh politician, | 0:58:16 | 0:58:19 | |
that they are not deserving... | 0:58:19 | 0:58:23 | |
I'm asking you because we know that
when people come forward, | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
as we have seen, it gives other
people confidence that they will be | 0:58:26 | 0:58:30 | |
believed because shame is in it. | 0:58:30 | 0:58:32 | |
We have to stop there, I'm sorry,
apologies to you both. | 0:58:32 | 0:58:35 | |
Our hour is up. | 0:58:35 | 0:58:43 | |
Our next Thursday Question Time
is going to come from Newcastle and, | 0:58:43 | 0:58:45 | |
among others on our panel,
Emily Thornberry, Tim Farron, | 0:58:45 | 0:58:48 | |
Rod Liddel and crime
writer Val McDiarmid. | 0:58:48 | 0:58:51 | |
That is in Newcastle and you can
call to be there and go | 0:58:51 | 0:58:54 | |
to the Question Time website,
you can equally apply there. | 0:58:54 | 0:58:56 | |
Question Time extra time
follows on Five Live. | 0:59:04 | 0:59:08 | |
We are discussing all of the issues
we have been talking about. | 0:59:08 | 0:59:11 | |
My thanks to the panel
and to you who came here | 0:59:11 | 0:59:14 | |
to Croydon to take part. | 0:59:14 | 0:59:16 | |
Until next Thursday, good night. | 0:59:16 | 0:59:18 |