23/11/2017 Question Time


23/11/2017

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Tonight, we are in Colchester.

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And welcome to Question Time.

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And on our panel tonight,

the Conservative Secretary

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of State for Business,

and a member of Theresa May's

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inner Cabinet, Greg Clarke.

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Labour's Shadow Home Secretary,

Diane Abbott, who this year

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celebrates 30 years as an MP.

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The former head of the Met,

who resigned this year at the end

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of six years as Commissioner,

Bernard Hogan-Howe.

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The crime writer and Brexit

supporter Dreda Say Mitchell.

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And the former boss of Marks &

Spencer, who chaired the campaign

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for Britain to stay in the EU,

Stuart Rose.

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And, as ever, what is talked

about here is always contentious

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and if you want to join

in from home, a reminder our hashtag

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is BBCQT on Twitter or Facebook,

or you can text 83981,

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push the red button and you will see

what other people are saying.

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Our first question tonight

is from Jo Richardson, please.

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Workers are worse off

now than ten years ago,

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and the future looks equally gloomy,

to quote, "Astonishing".

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What is the point of capitalism?

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What is the point of capitalism?

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APPLAUSE

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Stuart Rose.

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Well, that's a tough

question to get asked first.

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Thank you very much,

Jo, for that one.

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Listen, we are facing very tough

times and I've no doubt we'll talk

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about the Budget at some point.

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But one of the things we really need

to talk about in the context

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of where we are today is not

the Budget but the economy.

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And I'm afraid all

the signs are not good.

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It doesn't matter who you refer to,

whether it's the IFS,

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whether it's the ONS,

whether it's the Bank of England.

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All the indicators are that we have

gone from being one of the top

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performers in the G7,

one of the top performers

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in the world, one of the top

performers in Europe in terms

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of growth, and we are now nearly

at the bottom of the league.

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And that's happened

in the last six or 12 months.

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And I don't want to open the debate

straightaway about saying that's

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all caused by Brexit.

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Forget about Brexit.

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It's irrelevant, to the extent

that we still have a problem.

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Our country is facing

a very difficult time.

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I think what we need

to do is face up to it.

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What we need to do is understand

the reasons for it.

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We have to articulate to everybody,

yourselves and to the country

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at wide, why those reasons

are there, what we think

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we can do about it.

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We've got to join together

to find solutions.

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It's not easy.

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It will take time, but I'm afraid

the future is a little bit gloomy.

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I do say it's gloomier

because of the situation

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we are finding ourselves in terms

of politics today and Brexit.

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APPLAUSE

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Diane Abbott.

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Capitalism is a way

of organising the economy.

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But the problems with

capitalism arise first

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of all when it is unregulated,

or not properly regulated.

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It was bankers who were not properly

regulated that tipped us

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into the economic crisis

which we are still struggling with.

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APPLAUSE

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I'm not against bankers, though,

not really, but they should have

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been properly regulated.

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It's also an issue when you try

and inject the market and capitalism

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into areas where it has no business.

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For instance, the health service.

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APPLAUSE

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I believe that the health service

should be free at the point of use.

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So I can see that politics is a way

of organising the world,

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but we can see both here

and the United States

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and across the world

what unregulated capitalism

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and injecting the market into

the wrong situations can lead to.

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APPLAUSE

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Greg Clarke, this idea that workers

are worse off than ten years ago,

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and we know the gloomy predictions

in this Budget, one of the gloomiest

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Budgets any of us have ever heard.

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Does it mean capitalism isn't

working, isn't delivering?

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First of all, if you look at

capitalism, and for all the flaws,

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a bit like Winston Churchill said

about democracy, look

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at the alternative.

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And if you really want to see

the effects on people,

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look at socialist societies.

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Look at Venezuela...

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APPLAUSE

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Look at Cuba, look

at Eastern Europe.

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The role of capitalism,

the role of business,

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let's put it that way,

is absolutely essential.

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It is by working, by paying taxes,

by producing things that we all

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consume that we are employed,

taxes are paid to support

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our public services.

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It's absolutely vital.

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Lots of us, outside of family

and education, lots of us

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fulfil our potential throughout

the world of work in companies.

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So let's not be against business

and successful business,

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because I would say that every

successful society has

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successful businesses.

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Of course they need to be prosperous

and they need to respect

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the people's rights, but you can't

have a successful society

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unless you have thriving businesses.

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The man up there.

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APPLAUSE

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Regarding Diane Abbott

saying about the bankers,

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wasn't it Gordon Brown

at the Mansion House

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speech said he wanted

to encourage the risk takers?

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I have to tell you,

I was in Parliament at that time

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and I didn't hear a single solitary

Conservative MP saying they wanted

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tougher regulation on bankers.

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But you admit, Gordon

Brown did say that.

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And just to refer to what Greg said,

I took care to say that

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I wasn't against business.

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I was pointing at what happens

when there isn't proper regulation,

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what happens when you have a society

driven by greed.

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Because when a society's

driven by greed, then

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it's actually the most

vulnerable who always suffer.

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APPLAUSE

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You, sir, over there.

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I would say there's nothing wrong

with capitalisation and capitalism.

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The problem all the socialist

countries have felt,

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and capitalism has succeeded

across the world, the problem

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is globalisation and the fact

that the rules are not

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the same for everyone.

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The multinationals are capable

of doing business in every country,

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most countries, apart from those

that still have some kind

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of sovereignty, without paying tax.

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How can local and national companies

compete with those multinationals?

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It is a downwards spiral

which is going to bring,

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like we are seeing across the EU

nations, increasing unemployment,

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increasing cost, increasing tax

to try to gain back some money

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and cover the increasing cost.

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So the EU has been failing

for the last 25 years.

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The EU is not the solution,

it is the cause of the increasing

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unemployment and problems

that we have.

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It is not capitalism.

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If everyone had the chance to make

business and only pay 4% of tax,

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which is what most of the 100

multinationals are doing

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in the EU, I would bet

that Europe would be

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a better place.

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APPLAUSE

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Bernard Hogan-Howe.

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I suppose it's in my nature,

but I would probably challenge

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a little bit the underpinning

in the assumption of the question,

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which is that we are in a horrible

place and it's terrible and things

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will never get better.

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What we've got is two

quarters of economic data,

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and that's important.

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And it might tell us

there is a trend, but we don't

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know for certain yet.

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And of course, the judgments

delivered by economists.

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There may be economists

in the audience, I don't know.

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The gentleman who just spoke may

well be an economist.

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But what we know with economists

is they are not always very good

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at predicting the future.

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They can explain and analyse

the past but they can't

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always predict the future.

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So I'm not entirely sure that we are

in such a terrible place,

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but clearly there is a challenge

for a while.

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The Chancellor of the Exchequer

seems to think we are in

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a pretty terrible place.

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What he's saying is that

the growth is not as high

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as they were expecting.

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1.4%, or something.

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It is the first time

for a while that it's been below 2%.

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So it's clearly not as good

as everybody wants.

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But it's not zero, and it's

not less than zero.

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So my point is that before

we overreact, we ought to at least

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understand what we are facing.

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People are already living in such

a desperate situation.

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You are talking as if, Bernard,

things are not bad for people.

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Currently we've got 6 million people

Jammed, just about managing.

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We've got two out of five

households, actually,

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who can't afford to do the things

that they want to do.

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We've got 42% of people

who cannot go away annually

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one week on a holiday.

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And the thing I meant with two

households out of five,

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they cannot save a tenner a month.

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If that is not bad...

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And what the government now

is saying to people is probably

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things are going to get worse.

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And also on top of that,

where is the investment

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in our young people?

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All right, don't make

too many points.

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Let Bernard answer.

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My point is not...

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Because you just described my

childhood, more or less.

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My point is not to dismiss

that type of background.

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My point is that we can

still have a positive

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attitude about the economy.

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That's my first point.

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The second point is,

in terms of capitalism,

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I think generally it's the better

of the alternatives.

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And I think although...

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And I agree entirely

with what Diane said,

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it ought to be regulated capitalism.

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There needs to make sure

that we have regulation.

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Don't you feel...

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Let him speak.

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The second point is that it ought

to be caring as well.

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And I think it isn't always caring.

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I think the incentive for capitalism

is about making profit,

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and that is a good thing.

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It generates wealth

and that helps us.

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But I don't think it

always cares about those

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people you just described.

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So I think that's where the state

has to take a part.

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I'll come to you soon.

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Let's hear some more

from members of the audience.

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The woman in the third row.

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Yes, I agree with Diane Abbott

completely and I do think

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capitalism is failing us.

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I think it has to be regulated.

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I completely agree

with what you said.

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To the Tory MP, I don't see

why you have to make

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this comparison with, "Oh,

socialist is a bad option.

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"What other alternative is there"?

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Well, I'm sorry, but socialism,

for me, is a great alternative.

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I would like to see

the Labour Party get in next time

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there's an election.

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OK, Greg Clarke.

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Let Mr Clarke reply.

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What I would say to you is

that we've had a test

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of this in practice.

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I understand that the socialists

were well motivated.

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They wanted to make

their countries better.

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But time and again it has failed

and people have been

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pushed into poverty.

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Where has it failed?

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Can I turn to something...

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Let him finish.

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Diane made a point.

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She said in response to a member

of the audience that no Conservative

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MP called out Gordon Brown

when this deregulation

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of the City was happening.

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That is not true.

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I'll tell you one Conservative MP,

Peter Lilley, who was

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the Conservative Shadow Chancellor.

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And at that moment,

when the Bank of England,

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that had always been a very

dependable, responsible regulator

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of financial services,

was being moved away,

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what Peter Lilley said in the House

of Commons was that this

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was the government taking its eye

off the ball and spivs and crooks

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would have a field day,

and that is exactly what happened

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and that is what he

predicted and opposed.

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That's some time back.

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APPLAUSE

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Maybe we should come back

to the present and to yesterday's

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Budget and the prediction of flat

growth and no change in people's

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take-home pay for a decade or more.

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Stuart Rose, you were

trying to get in.

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I just want to get...

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What's your name?

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Jackie.

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I just want to get back to the point

that you made, if I may say so,

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because I'd like to be clear

in my own mind in this audience

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about whether we would all agree

that the creation of wealth

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for all of us is a good thing.

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Because if we don't have

wealth and money to spend

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we cannot build hospitals,

we cannot build roads,

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we cannot build universities,

we cannot educate our children,

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we cannot even spend the money that

some parties might choose

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us to want to spend.

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So is the creation of

wealth a good thing?

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I think most of us would say yes.

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Yes, creation of wealth.

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But what I was trying to say

was that the Tory MP

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was saying that businesses,

you know, we all need businesses.

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Yes, we need creation of wealth,

we need businesses.

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Socialism doesn't say

we don't, does it?

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No, my point would be

that I agree with you,

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creation of wealth is a good thing.

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I've spent all my life in business

and I have been engaged

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in the creation of wealth

with people,

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in my most recent full-time job

with 100,000 people who depended

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on us to make sure that we create

the right amount of money

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to pay them the wages,

to pay for the investment

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in our business, to pay our taxes

and to pay for the hospitals,

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schools and whatever else.

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I'm sorry, but it's got

to trickle down as well.

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The lowest of the low are getting

paid nothing while the top ones

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are getting extraordinary,

ridiculous amounts of money.

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We are all suffering austerity.

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Jackie, I think we are going to be

in violent agreement.

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I agree with you,

in the sense that it's

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about the distribution of wealth.

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That's what we should

have a conversation about.

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The man with the spectacles

on in the second row from the back.

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For me, here is the difficulty.

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We've got the socialists arguing

with the capitalists,

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saying it's one or the other,

when the reality is what is

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needed is a third way.

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What we really need is to encourage

entrepreneurs, to encourage

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the creation of wealth,

but with that we need

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to also encourage people

to be compassionate,

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people to look after the poor,

people to look after our relatives

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who are in old people's homes that

aren't fit for purpose any more.

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We need a compassionate economic

system that will work for everyone.

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To pick up Jo Richardson's

question, do you think

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that the future looks gloomy?

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Me?

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Yes.

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No, I'm a glass is half full kind

of person, to be honest.

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I think there are organisations,

there's the voluntary sector

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who are doing incredible work.

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We talked this evening, earlier,

about food banks and suchlike.

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There are people like that

who are working really hard.

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It's just a shame they are needed.

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I do think we need to look

after the more vulnerable

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members of society more

than we currently do.

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The lady on the right.

Yes.

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I'm actually an economist by trade.

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There are economists

in the audience!

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I think what is always important

is economic growth, but

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inclusive economic growth.

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Even here in Essex we have

these coastal areas

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that are really deprived,

and it is sharing that wealth.

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There is a lot of focus

in London rather than save

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maybe in the north.

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And I know there is a bit

in the Budget about moving

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towards that.

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And I think it's really,

really important about

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spreading the wealth, not just

between generations but

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across regions.

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APPLAUSE.

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What is the difference in growth

in different regions of Britain?

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Is the North West,

for instance, or the

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Northeast doing better

than the South in terms of actual

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growth, not in total prosperity?

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Well actually, the

fastest-growing part

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of the country now

is the north-west.

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It used to be the case.

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That is the gap has closed.

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But there is further

to go, as I think

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everyone knows.

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London and the south-east

are still ahead in terms

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of productivity.

And that is the big challenge.

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Those people that have said that

actually it's not either

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or, we do have a role in making sure

that the prosperity that is enjoyed

0:16:230:16:27

by people who are earning well,

companies that are doing well, is

0:16:270:16:33

spread across the whole country.

0:16:330:16:38

And the challenge

that we have is this

0:16:380:16:39

productivity challenge

that was laid out in the Budget.

0:16:390:16:43

Can you use sort

of ordinary English?

0:16:430:16:48

I mean, the productivity

challenge is hardly

0:16:480:16:50

going to get everybody

fired up, is it?

0:16:500:16:53

What it is is this, it takes people

in Germany four days to

0:16:530:16:58

produce what people in the UK take

five days to produce.

0:16:580:17:04

And that means that they can

pay themselves better.

0:17:040:17:07

Whose fault is this?

0:17:070:17:09

This is a long-standing

challenge of the

0:17:090:17:11

British economy.

0:17:110:17:12

And it has a number

of different causes.

0:17:120:17:17

And what we need to do,

and this is not a party

0:17:170:17:20

political point, because it is

something that embraces the trade

0:17:200:17:22

unions, it embraces the trade

unions, leaders of councils,

0:17:220:17:26

universities and everyone else.

0:17:260:17:27

It's looking at what

you need to do to

0:17:270:17:29

improve things.

0:17:290:17:30

You need to improve

training and education.

0:17:300:17:34

You need to improve our

level of scientific

0:17:340:17:36

research and applying

that in practice.

0:17:360:17:39

You need to have

better infrastructure.

0:17:390:17:41

Again, this is a speech.

0:17:410:17:42

This is a speech.

0:17:420:17:43

All right.

0:17:430:17:45

Dreda, I'll come to you.

0:17:450:17:47

I mean, I just listen to this -

you see, my whole background

0:17:470:17:50

is sort of grassroots.

0:17:500:17:51

I'm not a politician.

0:17:510:17:54

And what I hear from people

day in, day out is big

0:17:540:17:58

companies, the people

at the top get all the money,

0:17:580:18:00

they don't get a lot of money,

they are seen as cheap

0:18:000:18:03

labour.

0:18:030:18:04

We live in a hire,

fire type of economy.

0:18:040:18:07

Somehow along we've got to start

taking care of our workers.

0:18:070:18:11

Because the way we are talking

about productivity, it was almost

0:18:110:18:14

as if the workers are the problem.

0:18:140:18:16

The workers are not

working quickly enough.

0:18:160:18:18

That is what I picked up from it.

0:18:180:18:24

So we've got to start thinking

about the sort of society we want

0:18:240:18:27

to be.

0:18:270:18:28

I don't use words like

capitalism and socialism.

0:18:280:18:30

I think about what is

the type of society I

0:18:300:18:33

want the next generation

to be living in?

0:18:330:18:35

I want them to be able to think

when they go to work there

0:18:350:18:38

will be in a caring environment,

they will be looked after, they will

0:18:380:18:41

get a decent wage.

0:18:410:18:42

We talked about the

society that we are in.

0:18:420:18:44

If you think about the

public sector, and I

0:18:440:18:47

think about my days as a teacher,

it is full of people

0:18:470:18:50

who were serving the community.

0:18:500:18:52

Why is it they are not

being paid properly?

0:18:520:18:55

Why is it their money

is being stopped?

0:18:550:19:01

If we are so caring we've got

to look after the people

0:19:010:19:04

who look after us.

0:19:040:19:06

That is a big job that the

government has to do and it was one

0:19:060:19:10

of the things in the Budget

that really, really I'm

0:19:100:19:13

disappointed and very

upset about.

0:19:130:19:14

OK.

0:19:140:19:16

Let's go back to some

members of our audience.

0:19:160:19:18

The woman in the third

row in the centre

0:19:180:19:21

there, yes?

0:19:210:19:25

Surely the prime job of a politician

0:19:250:19:27

is to serve the community,

the problem with our society is not

0:19:270:19:30

capitalism or socialism, it's

that our politicians are not serving

0:19:300:19:32

their communities.

0:19:320:19:34

In what way?

0:19:340:19:35

They are not listening

to the community,

0:19:350:19:36

they are not engaging

with the community.

0:19:360:19:38

The community are having politics

having done to them rather

0:19:380:19:40

than being engaged in the process.

0:19:400:19:42

APPLAUSE.

0:19:420:19:46

Diane?

0:19:460:19:47

I wanted to respond very quickly.

0:19:470:19:50

Can you respond to her first?

0:19:500:19:51

Well, I do, I do listen

to my community.

0:19:510:19:57

And even when it got me

into trouble with my leadership,

0:19:570:20:01

like when I listened to my community

on the Iraq war, I did what my

0:20:010:20:05

community wanted.

0:20:050:20:06

What about all the politicians,

for example, who sat

0:20:060:20:12

in a Remain constituency but voted

to leave, or vice versa?

0:20:120:20:14

Oh well, I mean, the

referendum was a thought

0:20:140:20:16

to leave.

0:20:160:20:26

-- a vote.

0:20:260:20:27

And I think there is a democratic

issue about taking the

0:20:270:20:30

referendum vote seriously.

0:20:300:20:31

What type of Brexit

we have is another matter.

0:20:310:20:33

It is my view the Tories are

mismanaging negotiations from top to

0:20:330:20:36

bottom.

0:20:360:20:37

But just to quickly respond to Greg,

he said that Peter Lilley

0:20:370:20:40

voted not to make the Bank

of England independent.

0:20:400:20:45

I'm sorry, Peter Lilley,

how many years back

0:20:450:20:47

are we talking about?!

0:20:470:20:50

We are here in 2017.

0:20:500:20:51

When did Peter Lilley leave

the House of Commons?

0:20:510:20:53

I made the point.

0:20:530:20:54

You made the point, didn't you?

0:20:540:20:56

Let's leave Peter

Lilley to one side.

0:20:560:20:59

But there is a serious point.

0:20:590:21:02

Greg's main argument was to offer

this completely false dichotomy

0:21:020:21:06

between, you know, Trump's America

on the one hand and Cuba on the

0:21:060:21:09

other hand.

0:21:090:21:10

There are other models of society.

0:21:100:21:12

Look at the Scandinavian countries.

0:21:120:21:13

They have far better public health.

0:21:130:21:17

Much more equal, much

better health service.

0:21:170:21:21

Don't talk about extremes.

0:21:210:21:23

What we want is a fair,

a more equal and a genuinely

0:21:230:21:27

social democratic society.

0:21:270:21:28

APPLAUSE.

0:21:280:21:34

I just want to pick up the German

comparison, because it is an

0:21:340:21:37

interesting point.

0:21:370:21:38

Many of the people who can

afford to will buy

0:21:380:21:40

German products.

0:21:400:21:42

And I think one of the things

the government has

0:21:420:21:44

responsibility to do,

which I didn't see any Budget,

0:21:440:21:47

because it was one of the things.

0:21:470:21:49

It's not how much tax was reduced,

I was looking for a

0:21:490:21:52

vision, or something that we can

all start to think about.

0:21:520:21:54

So if one of the things

that we need to do

0:21:540:21:57

is to embed quality

in the things we do,

0:21:570:21:59

Then you have to do

something about that.

0:21:590:22:01

You have to set up systems,

you have to look at research and

0:22:010:22:04

development.

0:22:040:22:05

So the investment goes

into the good ideas.

0:22:050:22:07

We have had great ideas

in this country, but we

0:22:070:22:09

never seem to make it often

to actually manufacture anything.

0:22:090:22:12

Education, clearly a vital part

of making sure that things are

0:22:120:22:14

developed.

0:22:140:22:15

The government talked about,

during the election,

0:22:150:22:18

involving workers on the boards.

0:22:180:22:19

That hasn't happened.

0:22:190:22:20

It does happen in Germany.

0:22:200:22:22

My point is, I'm not saying

the German economy is the best, it's

0:22:220:22:25

a pretty strong one.

0:22:250:22:26

Some of the things they do,

I think, government

0:22:260:22:28

does have a responsibility

at a strategic level

0:22:280:22:30

to set that context.

0:22:300:22:31

I don't think we see

it often enough.

0:22:310:22:33

We see what can be regarded

as gimmicks, the odd idea,

0:22:330:22:35

attractive for a bit.

0:22:350:22:36

It doesn't pay you back

for five years and that's

0:22:360:22:39

the sort of thing I

think we need to see.

0:22:390:22:41

No, no, plenty more time to talk.

0:22:410:22:43

I think we'll move onto another

aspect of the Budget.

0:22:430:22:45

We've got a lot of questions.

0:22:450:22:47

I can't get through them all.

0:22:470:22:48

I can't get to them all,

but one of the key ones is

0:22:480:22:51

the next one.

0:22:510:22:52

Just before we come to that though,

I should tell viewers

0:22:520:22:55

where we are going to be

next week, Scarborough.

0:22:550:22:59

And Swansea the week after that.

0:22:590:23:03

So if you're watching in

Scarborough or Swansea

0:23:030:23:05

and want to come to Question Time,

the details are on the screen of how

0:23:050:23:09

to get there.

0:23:090:23:10

I'll give those at the end.

0:23:100:23:11

This other aspect of it

which was very central to a lot of

0:23:110:23:14

people's concerns about the economy

at the moment, from John Acker,

0:23:140:23:17

please, John Acker.

0:23:170:23:18

Can the Budget fix

the broken housing market?

0:23:180:23:26

Dianne Abbott?

0:23:260:23:27

No.

0:23:270:23:28

The housing crisis

we face has more than

0:23:280:23:34

one dimension.

0:23:340:23:35

There are homeless people.

0:23:350:23:36

And actually, it's all tied up

with what is happening in private

0:23:360:23:39

housing.

0:23:390:23:40

There are people paying

astronomical rents nowadays.

0:23:400:23:44

60% of their income on rental.

0:23:440:23:47

There are people that

want to own their own

0:23:470:23:49

homes, and there are people that may

have a home but are very worried

0:23:490:23:53

about their children.

0:23:530:23:55

So no, this Budget does

not deal with all of

0:23:550:23:58

those issues.

0:23:580:24:00

What would you have wanted it to do?

0:24:000:24:02

I would have wanted it...

0:24:020:24:03

If it had been your Budget,

or McDonnell's Budget?

0:24:030:24:06

If it had in my Budget we would have

0:24:060:24:08

brought in some measure

of rent control.

0:24:080:24:10

APPLAUSE.

0:24:100:24:16

And if it had been my Budget,

we would have been borrowing

0:24:190:24:22

to invest in council housing.

0:24:220:24:25

APPLAUSE.

0:24:250:24:30

Now the Tories seem to think there's

some sort of stigma about council

0:24:300:24:33

housing.

0:24:330:24:35

But actually, good quality,

well-managed council housing is part

0:24:350:24:38

of the whole housing mix.

0:24:380:24:42

If you just rely on

subsidies to builders so

0:24:420:24:47

people can buy overpriced houses,

you're never going to meet the

0:24:470:24:50

real needs.

0:24:500:24:52

Can we just get the borrowing

thing clarified?

0:24:520:24:54

Sorry, you would borrow how

much and what would you

0:24:540:24:57

do with it?

0:24:570:25:00

Give it to the councils

or allow councils to borrow?

0:25:000:25:03

What would the plan be?

0:25:030:25:06

As you probably know,

the Bank of England base rate

0:25:060:25:09

is now half a percent.

0:25:090:25:10

When we get into

government, as I hope we

0:25:100:25:12

do, maybe next year,

maybe in 2022, we'll...

0:25:120:25:15

Exactly!

0:25:150:25:19

The estimate is that we will be

borrowing at around 2%.

0:25:190:25:22

If you borrow to invest,

which is what we say

0:25:220:25:24

we are going to do, whether it's

investing in

0:25:240:25:30

infrastructure or whether it's

investing in housing, you get a

0:25:300:25:33

return on that investment.

0:25:330:25:34

If you talk to merchant

banks about what

0:25:340:25:37

private sector investments

get out of interested

0:25:370:25:42

for instance, you're looking

at 8%, 10%.

0:25:420:25:50

So we are very clear

we would borrow to invest in things

0:25:500:25:53

like housing infrastructure.

0:25:530:25:53

And even Tories understand that.

0:25:530:25:55

His colleague, Sajid

Javid, was talking

0:25:550:25:56

about borrowing 50 billion

to invest in housing,

0:25:560:25:58

until he was slapped

down by Philip Hammond.

0:25:580:26:00

So yes we would borrow,

but we would get in

0:26:000:26:09

a return on that money

because we would be

0:26:090:26:11

investing in things

that

0:26:110:26:14

the community needs.

0:26:140:26:15

And why didn't you do that?

0:26:150:26:17

The truth is that

for many generations

0:26:170:26:19

of government of different colours,

we have not been building the number

0:26:190:26:21

of homes that we needed.

0:26:210:26:23

That has to be faced up to.

0:26:230:26:24

That is true.

0:26:240:26:25

Why didn't you do

what she suggested?

0:26:250:26:27

So...

0:26:270:26:28

What Sajid Javid suggested.

0:26:280:26:29

Diane suggested...

0:26:290:26:30

Sajid Javid suggested it.

0:26:300:26:32

Well, Diane suggested that we should

have, allow councils

0:26:320:26:34

to build council houses.

0:26:340:26:37

In the Budget that is precisely

what they have been not

0:26:370:26:40

just allowed, but encouraged to do.

0:26:400:26:43

There is £1 billion

that is going to be available

0:26:430:26:46

to councils for this.

0:26:460:26:48

And so far from having any objection

to councils building houses, I think

0:26:480:26:51

it is a fantastic thing.

0:26:510:26:52

In fact, there are more...

0:26:520:26:53

You're not freeing councils to

borrow as much as they would want?

0:26:530:26:56

No, it is part of the national debt.

0:26:560:26:58

That is the point she's making.

0:26:580:26:59

With low interest rates

you can afford to

0:26:590:27:01

borrow a lot more.

0:27:010:27:02

Well, they are being able to borrow.

0:27:020:27:04

They can't borrow what they want.

0:27:040:27:05

They can borrow £1 billion more.

0:27:050:27:07

It's not very much,

is it, for housing?

0:27:070:27:09

There are more houses

that have been built

0:27:090:27:11

in the last seven years than under

the entire period of Diane's

0:27:110:27:14

appeared in government.

0:27:140:27:15

That is tit-for-tat stuff.

0:27:150:27:16

The thing is, sorry, let me finish.

0:27:160:27:17

There's a big problem about housing.

0:27:170:27:19

You say there is.

0:27:190:27:20

All the speeches from the Tory

conference have said it.

0:27:200:27:22

When it comes to it,

what are we offered,

0:27:220:27:32

300,000 new houses

by 2022 or something?

0:27:320:27:33

It's nothing.

0:27:330:27:34

It's nothing to grab

the imagination are

0:27:340:27:36

confident people looking for houses.

0:27:360:27:37

APPLAUSE.

0:27:370:27:39

300,000 homes a year was the level

of house building that we

0:27:390:27:44

achieved when Harold Macmillan,

after the war, was prime minister.

0:27:440:27:47

That is what we need to do

to make a big difference.

0:27:470:27:50

We were a much smaller

country in those days.

0:27:500:27:52

300,000 a year is a lot.

0:27:520:27:54

But actually, we are

making big progress

0:27:540:27:57

compared to where we were after

the financial crisis.

0:27:570:28:00

The figures just for,

just imagine the last few

0:28:000:28:04

weeks, in the last year we build,

we added 217,000, that is getting up

0:28:040:28:09

to the level we need to,

but we have got further to go.

0:28:090:28:12

That is why, in very

difficult circumstances,

0:28:120:28:18

the money is not awash,

as it has been clear

0:28:180:28:20

from our discussion.

0:28:200:28:21

That's not what Diane said.

0:28:210:28:23

She says money is awash.

0:28:230:28:24

That £15 billion has

been found to invest

0:28:240:28:28

in housing is very important.

But let me pick up Diane's point.

0:28:280:28:31

This is the problem.

0:28:310:28:33

Tories talk about

building houses but

0:28:330:28:35

they are not houses that people

with average salaries can afford.

0:28:350:28:37

APPLAUSE.

0:28:370:28:40

No we can't.

0:28:400:28:41

All right.

0:28:410:28:44

We have to avoid this becoming

the House of Commons.

0:28:440:28:47

We have three other guests.

0:28:470:28:48

The removal of stamp

duty on house purchases

0:28:480:28:51

for first-time buyers

on

0:28:510:28:55

£300,000 more or less valued houses,

is a step in the right direction.

0:28:550:28:58

But I believe the green belt should

be built on and it should be built

0:28:580:29:01

on soon.

0:29:010:29:02

I think there is about 92%

of our land mass just not built on

0:29:020:29:06

at all.

0:29:060:29:07

Instead of talking about council

houses all the time, we need

0:29:070:29:09

to build on land we already

have that is not used.

0:29:090:29:12

Like new garden cities

like Milton Keynes, in the

0:29:120:29:14

70s, we should have more

projects like that.

0:29:140:29:18

It's slowed down because we won't

build on places you think

0:29:180:29:20

we should?

0:29:200:29:21

Yeah.

0:29:210:29:22

We should definitely like...

0:29:220:29:23

Milton Keynes was like

the 60s or the 70s.

0:29:230:29:25

Stuart Rose, what do you think?

0:29:250:29:27

Well, I think there is plenty

of brown space available

0:29:270:29:30

to build on as well,

I think we know that.

0:29:300:29:32

APPLAUSE

0:29:320:29:33

But the real issue is,

nobody is arguing, we need

0:29:330:29:36

to build more houses.

0:29:360:29:37

And what I say is, frankly,

as somebody who is from business,

0:29:370:29:39

is I've heard politicians,

and we heard from Greg,

0:29:390:29:42

from both parties for 50 years

telling us they are going to build

0:29:420:29:45

200, 300, 200, 300.

0:29:450:29:46

They never meet the targets.

0:29:460:29:47

They never put enough money in.

0:29:470:29:48

The real reason is there's not

enough joint infrastructure,

0:29:480:29:51

incentives in place for councils

to build social housing,

0:29:510:29:53

or for builders to build affordable

housing, or for that to be done

0:29:530:29:56

in a way which is seamless.

0:29:560:29:58

And I'm afraid, also,

which goes back to the skills

0:29:580:30:00

conversation we had,

we actually don't have enough

0:30:000:30:02

trained people at the moment.

0:30:020:30:04

One of the reasons we can't

build houses is we don't

0:30:040:30:06

have enough builders.

0:30:060:30:07

And we need to train builders.

0:30:070:30:11

What about the freedom of councils

to build houses in their own areas?

0:30:110:30:14

And also for them to borrow enough

money to be able to do so.

0:30:140:30:17

You think they should be allowed to?

0:30:170:30:19

Yes.

0:30:190:30:21

But he says they can't

be allowed to.

0:30:210:30:23

Well, anything can be

done, David, if we want.

0:30:230:30:25

We could change the rules.

0:30:250:30:26

Greg, why don't

you change the rules?

0:30:260:30:28

I'll come to you.

0:30:280:30:29

Just briefly.

0:30:290:30:30

Try and explain what the constraint

is that stops you doing

0:30:300:30:33

what Stuart Rose is suggesting.

0:30:330:30:36

The constraint is this,

that we have one of the highest

0:30:360:30:39

levels of debt, still,

in the Western world.

0:30:390:30:41

It is well over 85%

of our national income.

0:30:410:30:47

And the trouble is that you can't

just borrow more and more and more

0:30:470:30:53

and add to that debt

without interest rates rising,

0:30:530:30:55

and without lenders not

being willing to support you.

0:30:550:31:00

And if you do that, you pay more

interest on that debt.

0:31:000:31:02

So you think the Labour policy...

0:31:020:31:04

Yes.

0:31:040:31:05

Hang on, you think...

0:31:050:31:07

Labour is always saying,

as Diane just said, interest rates

0:31:070:31:11

are very low at the moment.

0:31:110:31:13

You're saying if they do build more,

interest rates will rise.

0:31:130:31:15

Diane, equally, says you make

money on what you invest.

0:31:150:31:18

Interest rates are at

a near historic low,

0:31:180:31:20

as we know, but already today,

the interest, the annual interest

0:31:200:31:24

on our national debt is,

last year was £48 billion.

0:31:240:31:29

If I tell you that the police

budget is £12 billion,

0:31:290:31:34

I don't think that adding more

to our interest payments,

0:31:340:31:37

which would have to be

at the expense of public services,

0:31:370:31:39

is the responsible way to go.

0:31:390:31:41

Of course we would like to have

more house building,

0:31:410:31:43

but we have to be responsible.

0:31:430:31:46

Bernard.

0:31:460:31:48

For me, I think at the moment

clearly we have a massive problem.

0:31:480:31:51

We need 200,000 houses

a year for a while.

0:31:510:31:53

And the response at the moment,

I think, is quite incremental.

0:31:530:31:56

20,000 is nowhere near.

0:31:560:31:59

And there are two

effects, obviously.

0:31:590:32:01

One is that the price of houses that

are there are getting

0:32:010:32:04

more and more expensive.

0:32:040:32:05

Some people haven't got houses.

0:32:050:32:06

There was a report by

Mark Easton on the BBC News

0:32:060:32:09

about four weeks ago now.

0:32:090:32:10

This happens to be London,

and there were families

0:32:100:32:12

who were living in a pub.

0:32:120:32:14

Single room, sharing one room.

0:32:140:32:17

It just looked...

0:32:170:32:19

It didn't look awful,

it was awful that in this country,

0:32:190:32:22

in this day and age,

that was happening.

0:32:220:32:25

I'm sure nobody wants that,

but that's a pretty

0:32:250:32:27

awful state to get to.

0:32:270:32:28

So of all the things

that we might need a tsar for,

0:32:280:32:32

you might need someone to grab this

and then do lots of

0:32:320:32:34

things, not one thing.

0:32:340:32:35

And I think I agree with this

gentleman over here all right,

0:32:350:32:38

it's good for the 300,000.

0:32:380:32:40

But alone that won't do it.

0:32:400:32:41

I don't think a billion's

going to do it.

0:32:410:32:43

Things like infrastructure.

0:32:430:32:44

It's the job of government to put

in roads and rail so that builders

0:32:440:32:47

can build around it.

0:32:470:32:49

Then you will get things to happen.

0:32:490:32:50

You can tax incentivise it.

0:32:500:32:51

You can innovate.

0:32:510:32:52

You don't have to carry on building

buildings in the same way.

0:32:520:32:55

You have prefab buildings.

0:32:550:32:57

You can get top-end range

houses now, prefabs.

0:32:570:32:58

Why can't we get mid-range houses?

0:32:580:33:00

You can speed up planning.

0:33:000:33:05

I agree with rent controls,

provided it was an interim measure.

0:33:050:33:07

I think if you disturb

the market too long,

0:33:070:33:09

I don't think that's

wise for anybody.

0:33:090:33:11

But you could do it for three

to five years while some

0:33:110:33:14

of these things took effect.

0:33:140:33:15

But I do think it needs

a comprehensive plan and it doesn't

0:33:150:33:18

feel at the minute comprehensive.

0:33:180:33:19

And you've got a lot

of people who are losing,

0:33:190:33:22

well, their life chances,

kids, as they are growing

0:33:220:33:24

through pretty awful circumstances.

0:33:240:33:25

I think we need to do

something pretty quickly.

0:33:250:33:27

OK.

0:33:270:33:28

Let's go to the audience.

0:33:280:33:30

You, sir.

0:33:300:33:32

I think it's an absolute disgrace

for the minister to rely on this

0:33:320:33:35

argument about lack of money.

0:33:350:33:37

He ought to live in Colchester.

0:33:370:33:40

There is no infrastructure

here to support the houses.

0:33:400:33:45

APPLAUSE

0:33:450:33:52

The hospital can't cope,

the roads can't cope.

0:33:520:33:55

Just explain what you mean.

0:33:550:33:57

Well, Colchester is probably one of

the largest areas of house building

0:33:570:34:03

in the south-east of England.

0:34:030:34:06

That's the first point.

0:34:060:34:08

It has had a record

number of houses.

0:34:080:34:12

It outperforms all the Essex

towns by a country mile.

0:34:120:34:16

And yet the council

here is determined to

0:34:160:34:18

build 920 homes a year.

0:34:180:34:25

The hospital can't cope,

the roads can't cope.

0:34:250:34:26

The schools can't cope.

0:34:260:34:29

APPLAUSE

0:34:290:34:34

I'm sorry.

0:34:340:34:35

So you think that the government's

ambitions are overambitious

0:34:350:34:38

in terms of Colchester,

that too many houses

0:34:380:34:40

are being built?

0:34:400:34:42

Yes.

0:34:420:34:43

They're trying to lump more

houses on Colchester.

0:34:430:34:47

This is what the latest

white paper is saying,

0:34:470:34:50

that Colchester Borough Council have

rejected that approach.

0:34:500:34:54

But they want, because Colchester

has delivered so many houses

0:34:540:34:56

in the past, they want to lump more

houses on Colchester.

0:34:560:35:00

And the people of Colchester

are completely fed up with it.

0:35:000:35:03

OK.

0:35:030:35:05

Dreda.

0:35:050:35:09

That's very interesting.

0:35:090:35:11

I completely agree there has

to be infrastructure.

0:35:110:35:14

You can't just build, you have

to service your actual community.

0:35:140:35:17

But I keep going back

to the question about stamp duty.

0:35:170:35:22

And before I came today,

I went back to where I grew up,

0:35:220:35:25

which is a very poor part of east

London.

0:35:250:35:27

And I went online to look at some

houses on one of those online

0:35:270:35:31

websites that collates

all the information about all

0:35:310:35:34

the property being sold.

0:35:340:35:37

42 pages, 25 properties a page.

0:35:370:35:39

I got to page 20 before I found

anything that was under a million.

0:35:390:35:46

And when I got to page 42,

there were no properties that

0:35:460:35:49

were 500,000 or less.

0:35:490:35:54

This is the reality

for lots of people who live

0:35:540:35:57

in some of our cities,

particularly places like London.

0:35:570:36:00

So for me, and I'm completely

in agreement with Bernard, Greg,

0:36:000:36:03

the government have got

to have an overall strategy.

0:36:030:36:08

And I feel it should be a strategy

that stops talking about housing.

0:36:080:36:11

It has to include rent.

0:36:110:36:12

We need to start

talking about homes.

0:36:120:36:14

Let's have a home strategy.

0:36:140:36:15

If we start talking about people

need homes where they live,

0:36:150:36:18

where they can have roots,

where their children can

0:36:180:36:21

grow up, it just changes

the narrative completely.

0:36:210:36:24

Because very often we think

about housing, we think bricks

0:36:240:36:27

and mortar, and very often

we are actually thinking

0:36:270:36:29

about investment.

0:36:290:36:31

Let's start thinking about making

homes for people in Britain.

0:36:310:36:40

We're more than halfway through,

well over half way through.

0:36:400:36:42

I want to go to other subjects

but I want to take a couple more

0:36:420:36:46

points from our audience.

0:36:460:36:47

The woman there.

0:36:470:36:48

I feel like I'm part

of the generation that is never

0:36:480:36:51

going to be able to afford

my own home.

0:36:510:36:53

I have a fairly good salary,

I pay a very expensive rent

0:36:530:36:56

which means I cannot save.

0:36:560:36:57

These 920 houses that Colchester

are committed to building,

0:36:570:36:59

I'd love to be able to afford one.

0:36:590:37:01

I can't save for a deposit.

0:37:010:37:03

I could easily pay for a mortgage.

0:37:030:37:05

It would be a lot

cheaper than my rent.

0:37:050:37:07

APPLAUSE

0:37:070:37:08

The man at the very

back, behind you.

0:37:080:37:10

At the very back.

0:37:100:37:12

Of course a lack of house building

is one of the main contributors

0:37:120:37:15

to the housing crisis,

but what's the government

0:37:150:37:17

going to do about land banking,

which is often overlooked,

0:37:170:37:20

where effectively landlords profit

from people being homeless?

0:37:200:37:25

OK.

0:37:250:37:29

You can just briefly answer John,

because we've got to move on.

0:37:290:37:33

John is absolutely right in saying

that infrastructure has

0:37:330:37:35

to accompany house building.

0:37:350:37:37

It goes to Bernard's point

that the package that Sajid Javid

0:37:370:37:39

announced included infrastructure

to support house building.

0:37:390:37:42

And to the gentleman's point there,

he is absolutely right.

0:37:420:37:46

We've had 322,000 planning

permissions, but only about half

0:37:460:37:48

have been built out.

0:37:480:37:50

So again, what my colleague has

proposed is that there are powers

0:37:500:37:53

to allow councils to get those homes

built, rather than just sitting

0:37:530:37:57

with planning permission.

0:37:570:38:01

That's why you do need to bring it

together into a strategy.

0:38:010:38:04

There's not one single panacea.

0:38:040:38:05

You need to work across fronts.

0:38:050:38:15

I'm afraid at this point we had to

curtail this edition of Question

0:38:160:38:21

Time. A member of the audience was

taken ill and could not safely be

0:38:210:38:25

moved, so we had to bring the

programme to a close.

0:38:250:38:28

moved, so we had to bring the

programme to a close. Let me tell

0:38:280:38:30

you about next Thursday. Question

Time is coming from Scarborough and

0:38:300:38:34

we have Labour MP Chuka Umunna,

former Greek finance minister Yanis

0:38:340:38:39

Varoufakis, and the new leader of

Ukip, Henry Bolton on the panel. The

0:38:390:38:44

week after that we will be in

Swansea. Call us if you would like

0:38:440:38:52

to be in either audience, or go to

the website and follow the

0:38:520:38:55

instructions. Question Time extra

time follows on five live. Once

0:38:550:39:02

again, apologies for this curtailed

edition of Question Time. Until next

0:39:020:39:07

Thursday, from Colchester, good

night.

0:39:070:39:12

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