Browse content similar to 23/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Tonight, we are in Colchester. | 0:00:05 | 0:00:07 | |
And welcome to Question Time. | 0:00:07 | 0:00:10 | |
And on our panel tonight,
the Conservative Secretary | 0:00:16 | 0:00:18 | |
of State for Business,
and a member of Theresa May's | 0:00:18 | 0:00:20 | |
inner Cabinet, Greg Clarke. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:24 | |
Labour's Shadow Home Secretary,
Diane Abbott, who this year | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
celebrates 30 years as an MP. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:30 | |
The former head of the Met,
who resigned this year at the end | 0:00:30 | 0:00:34 | |
of six years as Commissioner,
Bernard Hogan-Howe. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:38 | |
The crime writer and Brexit
supporter Dreda Say Mitchell. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:41 | |
And the former boss of Marks &
Spencer, who chaired the campaign | 0:00:41 | 0:00:43 | |
for Britain to stay in the EU,
Stuart Rose. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:53 | |
And, as ever, what is talked
about here is always contentious | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
and if you want to join
in from home, a reminder our hashtag | 0:01:05 | 0:01:09 | |
is BBCQT on Twitter or Facebook,
or you can text 83981, | 0:01:09 | 0:01:11 | |
push the red button and you will see
what other people are saying. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
Our first question tonight
is from Jo Richardson, please. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:22 | |
Workers are worse off
now than ten years ago, | 0:01:22 | 0:01:24 | |
and the future looks equally gloomy,
to quote, "Astonishing". | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
What is the point of capitalism? | 0:01:26 | 0:01:30 | |
What is the point of capitalism? | 0:01:30 | 0:01:32 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:01:32 | 0:01:38 | |
Stuart Rose. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
Well, that's a tough
question to get asked first. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:43 | |
Thank you very much,
Jo, for that one. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
Listen, we are facing very tough
times and I've no doubt we'll talk | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
about the Budget at some point. | 0:01:49 | 0:01:52 | |
But one of the things we really need
to talk about in the context | 0:01:52 | 0:01:55 | |
of where we are today is not
the Budget but the economy. | 0:01:55 | 0:01:58 | |
And I'm afraid all
the signs are not good. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:00 | |
It doesn't matter who you refer to,
whether it's the IFS, | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
whether it's the ONS,
whether it's the Bank of England. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:05 | |
All the indicators are that we have
gone from being one of the top | 0:02:05 | 0:02:08 | |
performers in the G7,
one of the top performers | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
in the world, one of the top
performers in Europe in terms | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
of growth, and we are now nearly
at the bottom of the league. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
And that's happened
in the last six or 12 months. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:19 | |
And I don't want to open the debate
straightaway about saying that's | 0:02:19 | 0:02:22 | |
all caused by Brexit. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:23 | |
Forget about Brexit. | 0:02:23 | 0:02:24 | |
It's irrelevant, to the extent
that we still have a problem. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:26 | |
Our country is facing
a very difficult time. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
I think what we need
to do is face up to it. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:31 | |
What we need to do is understand
the reasons for it. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:34 | |
We have to articulate to everybody,
yourselves and to the country | 0:02:34 | 0:02:37 | |
at wide, why those reasons
are there, what we think | 0:02:37 | 0:02:39 | |
we can do about it. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:40 | |
We've got to join together
to find solutions. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:42 | |
It's not easy. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:43 | |
It will take time, but I'm afraid
the future is a little bit gloomy. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:47 | |
I do say it's gloomier
because of the situation | 0:02:47 | 0:02:49 | |
we are finding ourselves in terms
of politics today and Brexit. | 0:02:49 | 0:02:51 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:02:51 | 0:02:56 | |
Diane Abbott. | 0:02:56 | 0:02:59 | |
Capitalism is a way
of organising the economy. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:06 | |
But the problems with
capitalism arise first | 0:03:06 | 0:03:10 | |
of all when it is unregulated,
or not properly regulated. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:14 | |
It was bankers who were not properly
regulated that tipped us | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
into the economic crisis
which we are still struggling with. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:21 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:21 | 0:03:28 | |
I'm not against bankers, though,
not really, but they should have | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
been properly regulated. | 0:03:31 | 0:03:34 | |
It's also an issue when you try
and inject the market and capitalism | 0:03:34 | 0:03:40 | |
into areas where it has no business. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:45 | |
For instance, the health service. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:47 | 0:03:55 | |
I believe that the health service
should be free at the point of use. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
So I can see that politics is a way
of organising the world, | 0:03:58 | 0:04:02 | |
but we can see both here
and the United States | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
and across the world
what unregulated capitalism | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
and injecting the market into
the wrong situations can lead to. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:13 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:04:13 | 0:04:20 | |
Greg Clarke, this idea that workers
are worse off than ten years ago, | 0:04:20 | 0:04:23 | |
and we know the gloomy predictions
in this Budget, one of the gloomiest | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
Budgets any of us have ever heard. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
Does it mean capitalism isn't
working, isn't delivering? | 0:04:28 | 0:04:30 | |
First of all, if you look at
capitalism, and for all the flaws, | 0:04:30 | 0:04:34 | |
a bit like Winston Churchill said
about democracy, look | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
at the alternative. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
And if you really want to see
the effects on people, | 0:04:39 | 0:04:41 | |
look at socialist societies. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:42 | |
Look at Venezuela... | 0:04:42 | 0:04:45 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:04:45 | 0:04:50 | |
Look at Cuba, look
at Eastern Europe. | 0:04:50 | 0:04:52 | |
The role of capitalism,
the role of business, | 0:04:52 | 0:04:54 | |
let's put it that way,
is absolutely essential. | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
It is by working, by paying taxes,
by producing things that we all | 0:04:57 | 0:05:03 | |
consume that we are employed,
taxes are paid to support | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
our public services. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:09 | |
It's absolutely vital. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:11 | |
Lots of us, outside of family
and education, lots of us | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
fulfil our potential throughout
the world of work in companies. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:17 | |
So let's not be against business
and successful business, | 0:05:17 | 0:05:21 | |
because I would say that every
successful society has | 0:05:21 | 0:05:26 | |
successful businesses. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:31 | |
Of course they need to be prosperous
and they need to respect | 0:05:31 | 0:05:34 | |
the people's rights, but you can't
have a successful society | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
unless you have thriving businesses. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:40 | |
The man up there. | 0:05:40 | 0:05:42 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:05:42 | 0:05:50 | |
Regarding Diane Abbott
saying about the bankers, | 0:05:50 | 0:05:52 | |
wasn't it Gordon Brown
at the Mansion House | 0:05:52 | 0:05:54 | |
speech said he wanted
to encourage the risk takers? | 0:05:54 | 0:05:59 | |
I have to tell you,
I was in Parliament at that time | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
and I didn't hear a single solitary
Conservative MP saying they wanted | 0:06:01 | 0:06:08 | |
tougher regulation on bankers. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:10 | |
But you admit, Gordon
Brown did say that. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:13 | |
And just to refer to what Greg said,
I took care to say that | 0:06:13 | 0:06:19 | |
I wasn't against business. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:20 | |
I was pointing at what happens
when there isn't proper regulation, | 0:06:20 | 0:06:23 | |
what happens when you have a society
driven by greed. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:27 | |
Because when a society's
driven by greed, then | 0:06:27 | 0:06:29 | |
it's actually the most
vulnerable who always suffer. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:34 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:06:34 | 0:06:36 | |
You, sir, over there. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
I would say there's nothing wrong
with capitalisation and capitalism. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:41 | |
The problem all the socialist
countries have felt, | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
and capitalism has succeeded
across the world, the problem | 0:06:44 | 0:06:48 | |
is globalisation and the fact
that the rules are not | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
the same for everyone. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
The multinationals are capable
of doing business in every country, | 0:06:55 | 0:07:00 | |
most countries, apart from those
that still have some kind | 0:07:00 | 0:07:04 | |
of sovereignty, without paying tax. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
How can local and national companies
compete with those multinationals? | 0:07:07 | 0:07:12 | |
It is a downwards spiral
which is going to bring, | 0:07:12 | 0:07:16 | |
like we are seeing across the EU
nations, increasing unemployment, | 0:07:16 | 0:07:20 | |
increasing cost, increasing tax
to try to gain back some money | 0:07:20 | 0:07:27 | |
and cover the increasing cost. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:32 | |
So the EU has been failing
for the last 25 years. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:37 | |
The EU is not the solution,
it is the cause of the increasing | 0:07:37 | 0:07:40 | |
unemployment and problems
that we have. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:42 | |
It is not capitalism. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:44 | |
If everyone had the chance to make
business and only pay 4% of tax, | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
which is what most of the 100
multinationals are doing | 0:07:47 | 0:07:51 | |
in the EU, I would bet
that Europe would be | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
a better place. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:58 | 0:07:59 | |
Bernard Hogan-Howe. | 0:07:59 | 0:08:05 | |
I suppose it's in my nature,
but I would probably challenge | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
a little bit the underpinning
in the assumption of the question, | 0:08:07 | 0:08:11 | |
which is that we are in a horrible
place and it's terrible and things | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
will never get better. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:15 | |
What we've got is two
quarters of economic data, | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
and that's important. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:19 | |
And it might tell us
there is a trend, but we don't | 0:08:19 | 0:08:21 | |
know for certain yet. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:23 | |
And of course, the judgments
delivered by economists. | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
There may be economists
in the audience, I don't know. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:27 | |
The gentleman who just spoke may
well be an economist. | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
But what we know with economists
is they are not always very good | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
at predicting the future. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
They can explain and analyse
the past but they can't | 0:08:34 | 0:08:36 | |
always predict the future. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:37 | |
So I'm not entirely sure that we are
in such a terrible place, | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
but clearly there is a challenge
for a while. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:42 | |
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
seems to think we are in | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
a pretty terrible place. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:46 | |
What he's saying is that
the growth is not as high | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
as they were expecting. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:49 | |
1.4%, or something. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:51 | |
It is the first time
for a while that it's been below 2%. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:56 | |
So it's clearly not as good
as everybody wants. | 0:08:56 | 0:08:58 | |
But it's not zero, and it's
not less than zero. | 0:08:58 | 0:09:01 | |
So my point is that before
we overreact, we ought to at least | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
understand what we are facing. | 0:09:04 | 0:09:05 | |
People are already living in such
a desperate situation. | 0:09:05 | 0:09:07 | |
You are talking as if, Bernard,
things are not bad for people. | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
Currently we've got 6 million people
Jammed, just about managing. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:15 | |
We've got two out of five
households, actually, | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
who can't afford to do the things
that they want to do. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:23 | |
We've got 42% of people
who cannot go away annually | 0:09:23 | 0:09:26 | |
one week on a holiday. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
And the thing I meant with two
households out of five, | 0:09:30 | 0:09:33 | |
they cannot save a tenner a month. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:37 | |
If that is not bad... | 0:09:37 | 0:09:39 | |
And what the government now
is saying to people is probably | 0:09:39 | 0:09:41 | |
things are going to get worse. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:43 | |
And also on top of that,
where is the investment | 0:09:43 | 0:09:45 | |
in our young people? | 0:09:45 | 0:09:46 | |
All right, don't make
too many points. | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
Let Bernard answer. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:50 | |
My point is not... | 0:09:50 | 0:09:54 | |
Because you just described my
childhood, more or less. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
My point is not to dismiss
that type of background. | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
My point is that we can
still have a positive | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
attitude about the economy. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
That's my first point. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:05 | |
The second point is,
in terms of capitalism, | 0:10:05 | 0:10:07 | |
I think generally it's the better
of the alternatives. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
And I think although... | 0:10:10 | 0:10:12 | |
And I agree entirely
with what Diane said, | 0:10:12 | 0:10:14 | |
it ought to be regulated capitalism. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:15 | |
There needs to make sure
that we have regulation. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
Don't you feel... | 0:10:18 | 0:10:20 | |
Let him speak. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:21 | |
The second point is that it ought
to be caring as well. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:24 | |
And I think it isn't always caring. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:28 | |
I think the incentive for capitalism
is about making profit, | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
and that is a good thing. | 0:10:31 | 0:10:32 | |
It generates wealth
and that helps us. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
But I don't think it
always cares about those | 0:10:34 | 0:10:36 | |
people you just described. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:37 | |
So I think that's where the state
has to take a part. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
I'll come to you soon. | 0:10:40 | 0:10:41 | |
Let's hear some more
from members of the audience. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:43 | |
The woman in the third row. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:45 | |
Yes, I agree with Diane Abbott
completely and I do think | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
capitalism is failing us. | 0:10:47 | 0:10:48 | |
I think it has to be regulated. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:50 | |
I completely agree
with what you said. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
To the Tory MP, I don't see
why you have to make | 0:10:52 | 0:10:55 | |
this comparison with, "Oh,
socialist is a bad option. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:57 | |
"What other alternative is there"? | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
Well, I'm sorry, but socialism,
for me, is a great alternative. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
I would like to see
the Labour Party get in next time | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
there's an election. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:09 | |
OK, Greg Clarke. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:10 | |
Let Mr Clarke reply. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
What I would say to you is
that we've had a test | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
of this in practice. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:18 | |
I understand that the socialists
were well motivated. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
They wanted to make
their countries better. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:25 | |
But time and again it has failed
and people have been | 0:11:25 | 0:11:29 | |
pushed into poverty. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:30 | |
Where has it failed? | 0:11:30 | 0:11:33 | |
Can I turn to something... | 0:11:33 | 0:11:34 | |
Let him finish. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:35 | |
Diane made a point. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
She said in response to a member
of the audience that no Conservative | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
MP called out Gordon Brown
when this deregulation | 0:11:42 | 0:11:44 | |
of the City was happening. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:46 | |
That is not true. | 0:11:46 | 0:11:49 | |
I'll tell you one Conservative MP,
Peter Lilley, who was | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
the Conservative Shadow Chancellor. | 0:11:52 | 0:11:54 | |
And at that moment,
when the Bank of England, | 0:11:54 | 0:11:57 | |
that had always been a very
dependable, responsible regulator | 0:11:57 | 0:12:01 | |
of financial services,
was being moved away, | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
what Peter Lilley said in the House
of Commons was that this | 0:12:04 | 0:12:08 | |
was the government taking its eye
off the ball and spivs and crooks | 0:12:08 | 0:12:11 | |
would have a field day,
and that is exactly what happened | 0:12:11 | 0:12:14 | |
and that is what he
predicted and opposed. | 0:12:14 | 0:12:16 | |
That's some time back. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:18 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:18 | 0:12:21 | |
Maybe we should come back
to the present and to yesterday's | 0:12:21 | 0:12:25 | |
Budget and the prediction of flat
growth and no change in people's | 0:12:25 | 0:12:28 | |
take-home pay for a decade or more. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:31 | |
Stuart Rose, you were
trying to get in. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:34 | |
I just want to get... | 0:12:34 | 0:12:35 | |
What's your name? | 0:12:35 | 0:12:36 | |
Jackie. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:37 | |
I just want to get back to the point
that you made, if I may say so, | 0:12:37 | 0:12:41 | |
because I'd like to be clear
in my own mind in this audience | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
about whether we would all agree
that the creation of wealth | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
for all of us is a good thing. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:49 | |
Because if we don't have
wealth and money to spend | 0:12:49 | 0:12:51 | |
we cannot build hospitals,
we cannot build roads, | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
we cannot build universities,
we cannot educate our children, | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
we cannot even spend the money that
some parties might choose | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
us to want to spend. | 0:12:58 | 0:12:59 | |
So is the creation of
wealth a good thing? | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
I think most of us would say yes. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:03 | |
Yes, creation of wealth. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:04 | |
But what I was trying to say
was that the Tory MP | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
was saying that businesses,
you know, we all need businesses. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
Yes, we need creation of wealth,
we need businesses. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:12 | |
Socialism doesn't say
we don't, does it? | 0:13:12 | 0:13:14 | |
No, my point would be
that I agree with you, | 0:13:14 | 0:13:16 | |
creation of wealth is a good thing. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
I've spent all my life in business
and I have been engaged | 0:13:18 | 0:13:21 | |
in the creation of wealth
with people, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:23 | |
in my most recent full-time job
with 100,000 people who depended | 0:13:23 | 0:13:25 | |
on us to make sure that we create
the right amount of money | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
to pay them the wages,
to pay for the investment | 0:13:29 | 0:13:31 | |
in our business, to pay our taxes
and to pay for the hospitals, | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
schools and whatever else. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:35 | |
I'm sorry, but it's got
to trickle down as well. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:37 | |
The lowest of the low are getting
paid nothing while the top ones | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
are getting extraordinary,
ridiculous amounts of money. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:42 | |
We are all suffering austerity. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
Jackie, I think we are going to be
in violent agreement. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:51 | |
I agree with you,
in the sense that it's | 0:13:51 | 0:13:53 | |
about the distribution of wealth. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:54 | |
That's what we should
have a conversation about. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:57 | |
The man with the spectacles
on in the second row from the back. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
For me, here is the difficulty. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:02 | |
We've got the socialists arguing
with the capitalists, | 0:14:02 | 0:14:04 | |
saying it's one or the other,
when the reality is what is | 0:14:04 | 0:14:06 | |
needed is a third way. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
What we really need is to encourage
entrepreneurs, to encourage | 0:14:08 | 0:14:10 | |
the creation of wealth,
but with that we need | 0:14:10 | 0:14:13 | |
to also encourage people
to be compassionate, | 0:14:13 | 0:14:19 | |
people to look after the poor,
people to look after our relatives | 0:14:19 | 0:14:24 | |
who are in old people's homes that
aren't fit for purpose any more. | 0:14:24 | 0:14:27 | |
We need a compassionate economic
system that will work for everyone. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
To pick up Jo Richardson's
question, do you think | 0:14:32 | 0:14:38 | |
that the future looks gloomy? | 0:14:38 | 0:14:40 | |
Me? | 0:14:40 | 0:14:42 | |
Yes. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:43 | |
No, I'm a glass is half full kind
of person, to be honest. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:48 | |
I think there are organisations,
there's the voluntary sector | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
who are doing incredible work. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:58 | |
We talked this evening, earlier,
about food banks and suchlike. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:00 | |
There are people like that
who are working really hard. | 0:15:00 | 0:15:03 | |
It's just a shame they are needed. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
I do think we need to look
after the more vulnerable | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
members of society more
than we currently do. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:12 | |
The lady on the right.
Yes. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
I'm actually an economist by trade. | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
There are economists
in the audience! | 0:15:18 | 0:15:23 | |
I think what is always important
is economic growth, but | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
inclusive economic growth. | 0:15:26 | 0:15:26 | |
Even here in Essex we have
these coastal areas | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
that are really deprived,
and it is sharing that wealth. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:35 | |
There is a lot of focus
in London rather than save | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
maybe in the north. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:39 | |
And I know there is a bit
in the Budget about moving | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
towards that. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:43 | |
And I think it's really,
really important about | 0:15:43 | 0:15:45 | |
spreading the wealth, not just
between generations but | 0:15:45 | 0:15:46 | |
across regions. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:47 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
What is the difference in growth
in different regions of Britain? | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
Is the North West,
for instance, or the | 0:15:52 | 0:15:55 | |
Northeast doing better
than the South in terms of actual | 0:15:55 | 0:15:57 | |
growth, not in total prosperity? | 0:15:57 | 0:16:02 | |
Well actually, the
fastest-growing part | 0:16:02 | 0:16:04 | |
of the country now
is the north-west. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
It used to be the case. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
That is the gap has closed. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:11 | |
But there is further
to go, as I think | 0:16:11 | 0:16:13 | |
everyone knows. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:14 | |
London and the south-east
are still ahead in terms | 0:16:14 | 0:16:16 | |
of productivity.
And that is the big challenge. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
Those people that have said that
actually it's not either | 0:16:19 | 0:16:23 | |
or, we do have a role in making sure
that the prosperity that is enjoyed | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
by people who are earning well,
companies that are doing well, is | 0:16:27 | 0:16:33 | |
spread across the whole country. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:38 | |
And the challenge
that we have is this | 0:16:38 | 0:16:39 | |
productivity challenge
that was laid out in the Budget. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:43 | |
Can you use sort
of ordinary English? | 0:16:43 | 0:16:48 | |
I mean, the productivity
challenge is hardly | 0:16:48 | 0:16:50 | |
going to get everybody
fired up, is it? | 0:16:50 | 0:16:53 | |
What it is is this, it takes people
in Germany four days to | 0:16:53 | 0:16:58 | |
produce what people in the UK take
five days to produce. | 0:16:58 | 0:17:04 | |
And that means that they can
pay themselves better. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
Whose fault is this? | 0:17:07 | 0:17:09 | |
This is a long-standing
challenge of the | 0:17:09 | 0:17:11 | |
British economy. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:12 | |
And it has a number
of different causes. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:17 | |
And what we need to do,
and this is not a party | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
political point, because it is
something that embraces the trade | 0:17:20 | 0:17:22 | |
unions, it embraces the trade
unions, leaders of councils, | 0:17:22 | 0:17:26 | |
universities and everyone else. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:27 | |
It's looking at what
you need to do to | 0:17:27 | 0:17:29 | |
improve things. | 0:17:29 | 0:17:30 | |
You need to improve
training and education. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:34 | |
You need to improve our
level of scientific | 0:17:34 | 0:17:36 | |
research and applying
that in practice. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:39 | |
You need to have
better infrastructure. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:41 | |
Again, this is a speech. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:42 | |
This is a speech. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:43 | |
All right. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:45 | |
Dreda, I'll come to you. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
I mean, I just listen to this -
you see, my whole background | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
is sort of grassroots. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:51 | |
I'm not a politician. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:54 | |
And what I hear from people
day in, day out is big | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
companies, the people
at the top get all the money, | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
they don't get a lot of money,
they are seen as cheap | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
labour. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:04 | |
We live in a hire,
fire type of economy. | 0:18:04 | 0:18:07 | |
Somehow along we've got to start
taking care of our workers. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:11 | |
Because the way we are talking
about productivity, it was almost | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
as if the workers are the problem. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:16 | |
The workers are not
working quickly enough. | 0:18:16 | 0:18:18 | |
That is what I picked up from it. | 0:18:18 | 0:18:24 | |
So we've got to start thinking
about the sort of society we want | 0:18:24 | 0:18:27 | |
to be. | 0:18:27 | 0:18:28 | |
I don't use words like
capitalism and socialism. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
I think about what is
the type of society I | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
want the next generation
to be living in? | 0:18:33 | 0:18:35 | |
I want them to be able to think
when they go to work there | 0:18:35 | 0:18:38 | |
will be in a caring environment,
they will be looked after, they will | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
get a decent wage. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:42 | |
We talked about the
society that we are in. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:44 | |
If you think about the
public sector, and I | 0:18:44 | 0:18:47 | |
think about my days as a teacher,
it is full of people | 0:18:47 | 0:18:50 | |
who were serving the community. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
Why is it they are not
being paid properly? | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
Why is it their money
is being stopped? | 0:18:55 | 0:19:01 | |
If we are so caring we've got
to look after the people | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
who look after us. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:06 | |
That is a big job that the
government has to do and it was one | 0:19:06 | 0:19:10 | |
of the things in the Budget
that really, really I'm | 0:19:10 | 0:19:13 | |
disappointed and very
upset about. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:14 | |
OK. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:16 | |
Let's go back to some
members of our audience. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:18 | |
The woman in the third
row in the centre | 0:19:18 | 0:19:21 | |
there, yes? | 0:19:21 | 0:19:25 | |
Surely the prime job of a politician | 0:19:25 | 0:19:27 | |
is to serve the community,
the problem with our society is not | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
capitalism or socialism, it's
that our politicians are not serving | 0:19:30 | 0:19:32 | |
their communities. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
In what way? | 0:19:34 | 0:19:35 | |
They are not listening
to the community, | 0:19:35 | 0:19:36 | |
they are not engaging
with the community. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:38 | |
The community are having politics
having done to them rather | 0:19:38 | 0:19:40 | |
than being engaged in the process. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:42 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:19:42 | 0:19:46 | |
Diane? | 0:19:46 | 0:19:47 | |
I wanted to respond very quickly. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
Can you respond to her first? | 0:19:50 | 0:19:51 | |
Well, I do, I do listen
to my community. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:57 | |
And even when it got me
into trouble with my leadership, | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
like when I listened to my community
on the Iraq war, I did what my | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
community wanted. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:06 | |
What about all the politicians,
for example, who sat | 0:20:06 | 0:20:12 | |
in a Remain constituency but voted
to leave, or vice versa? | 0:20:12 | 0:20:14 | |
Oh well, I mean, the
referendum was a thought | 0:20:14 | 0:20:16 | |
to leave. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:26 | |
-- a vote. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:27 | |
And I think there is a democratic
issue about taking the | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
referendum vote seriously. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:31 | |
What type of Brexit
we have is another matter. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:33 | |
It is my view the Tories are
mismanaging negotiations from top to | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
bottom. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:37 | |
But just to quickly respond to Greg,
he said that Peter Lilley | 0:20:37 | 0:20:40 | |
voted not to make the Bank
of England independent. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:45 | |
I'm sorry, Peter Lilley,
how many years back | 0:20:45 | 0:20:47 | |
are we talking about?! | 0:20:47 | 0:20:50 | |
We are here in 2017. | 0:20:50 | 0:20:51 | |
When did Peter Lilley leave
the House of Commons? | 0:20:51 | 0:20:53 | |
I made the point. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:54 | |
You made the point, didn't you? | 0:20:54 | 0:20:56 | |
Let's leave Peter
Lilley to one side. | 0:20:56 | 0:20:59 | |
But there is a serious point. | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
Greg's main argument was to offer
this completely false dichotomy | 0:21:02 | 0:21:06 | |
between, you know, Trump's America
on the one hand and Cuba on the | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
other hand. | 0:21:09 | 0:21:10 | |
There are other models of society. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:12 | |
Look at the Scandinavian countries. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:13 | |
They have far better public health. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:17 | |
Much more equal, much
better health service. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
Don't talk about extremes. | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
What we want is a fair,
a more equal and a genuinely | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
social democratic society. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:28 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:34 | |
I just want to pick up the German
comparison, because it is an | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
interesting point. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:38 | |
Many of the people who can
afford to will buy | 0:21:38 | 0:21:40 | |
German products. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:42 | |
And I think one of the things
the government has | 0:21:42 | 0:21:44 | |
responsibility to do,
which I didn't see any Budget, | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
because it was one of the things. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:49 | |
It's not how much tax was reduced,
I was looking for a | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
vision, or something that we can
all start to think about. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
So if one of the things
that we need to do | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
is to embed quality
in the things we do, | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
Then you have to do
something about that. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
You have to set up systems,
you have to look at research and | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
development. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:05 | |
So the investment goes
into the good ideas. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
We have had great ideas
in this country, but we | 0:22:07 | 0:22:09 | |
never seem to make it often
to actually manufacture anything. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:12 | |
Education, clearly a vital part
of making sure that things are | 0:22:12 | 0:22:14 | |
developed. | 0:22:14 | 0:22:15 | |
The government talked about,
during the election, | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
involving workers on the boards. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:19 | |
That hasn't happened. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:20 | |
It does happen in Germany. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:22 | |
My point is, I'm not saying
the German economy is the best, it's | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
a pretty strong one. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:26 | |
Some of the things they do,
I think, government | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
does have a responsibility
at a strategic level | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
to set that context. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:31 | |
I don't think we see
it often enough. | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
We see what can be regarded
as gimmicks, the odd idea, | 0:22:33 | 0:22:35 | |
attractive for a bit. | 0:22:35 | 0:22:36 | |
It doesn't pay you back
for five years and that's | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
the sort of thing I
think we need to see. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:41 | |
No, no, plenty more time to talk. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:43 | |
I think we'll move onto another
aspect of the Budget. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:45 | |
We've got a lot of questions. | 0:22:45 | 0:22:47 | |
I can't get through them all. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:48 | |
I can't get to them all,
but one of the key ones is | 0:22:48 | 0:22:51 | |
the next one. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:52 | |
Just before we come to that though,
I should tell viewers | 0:22:52 | 0:22:55 | |
where we are going to be
next week, Scarborough. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
And Swansea the week after that. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:03 | |
So if you're watching in
Scarborough or Swansea | 0:23:03 | 0:23:05 | |
and want to come to Question Time,
the details are on the screen of how | 0:23:05 | 0:23:09 | |
to get there. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:10 | |
I'll give those at the end. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:11 | |
This other aspect of it
which was very central to a lot of | 0:23:11 | 0:23:14 | |
people's concerns about the economy
at the moment, from John Acker, | 0:23:14 | 0:23:17 | |
please, John Acker. | 0:23:17 | 0:23:18 | |
Can the Budget fix
the broken housing market? | 0:23:18 | 0:23:26 | |
Dianne Abbott? | 0:23:26 | 0:23:27 | |
No. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:28 | |
The housing crisis
we face has more than | 0:23:28 | 0:23:34 | |
one dimension. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:35 | |
There are homeless people. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:36 | |
And actually, it's all tied up
with what is happening in private | 0:23:36 | 0:23:39 | |
housing. | 0:23:39 | 0:23:40 | |
There are people paying
astronomical rents nowadays. | 0:23:40 | 0:23:44 | |
60% of their income on rental. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:47 | |
There are people that
want to own their own | 0:23:47 | 0:23:49 | |
homes, and there are people that may
have a home but are very worried | 0:23:49 | 0:23:53 | |
about their children. | 0:23:53 | 0:23:55 | |
So no, this Budget does
not deal with all of | 0:23:55 | 0:23:58 | |
those issues. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:00 | |
What would you have wanted it to do? | 0:24:00 | 0:24:02 | |
I would have wanted it... | 0:24:02 | 0:24:03 | |
If it had been your Budget,
or McDonnell's Budget? | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
If it had in my Budget we would have | 0:24:06 | 0:24:08 | |
brought in some measure
of rent control. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:16 | |
And if it had been my Budget,
we would have been borrowing | 0:24:19 | 0:24:22 | |
to invest in council housing. | 0:24:22 | 0:24:25 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:30 | |
Now the Tories seem to think there's
some sort of stigma about council | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
housing. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:35 | |
But actually, good quality,
well-managed council housing is part | 0:24:35 | 0:24:38 | |
of the whole housing mix. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:42 | |
If you just rely on
subsidies to builders so | 0:24:42 | 0:24:47 | |
people can buy overpriced houses,
you're never going to meet the | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
real needs. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:52 | |
Can we just get the borrowing
thing clarified? | 0:24:52 | 0:24:54 | |
Sorry, you would borrow how
much and what would you | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
do with it? | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
Give it to the councils
or allow councils to borrow? | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
What would the plan be? | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
As you probably know,
the Bank of England base rate | 0:25:06 | 0:25:09 | |
is now half a percent. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:10 | |
When we get into
government, as I hope we | 0:25:10 | 0:25:12 | |
do, maybe next year,
maybe in 2022, we'll... | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
Exactly! | 0:25:15 | 0:25:19 | |
The estimate is that we will be
borrowing at around 2%. | 0:25:19 | 0:25:22 | |
If you borrow to invest,
which is what we say | 0:25:22 | 0:25:24 | |
we are going to do, whether it's
investing in | 0:25:24 | 0:25:30 | |
infrastructure or whether it's
investing in housing, you get a | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
return on that investment. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:34 | |
If you talk to merchant
banks about what | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
private sector investments
get out of interested | 0:25:37 | 0:25:42 | |
for instance, you're looking
at 8%, 10%. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:50 | |
So we are very clear
we would borrow to invest in things | 0:25:50 | 0:25:53 | |
like housing infrastructure. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:53 | |
And even Tories understand that. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:55 | |
His colleague, Sajid
Javid, was talking | 0:25:55 | 0:25:56 | |
about borrowing 50 billion
to invest in housing, | 0:25:56 | 0:25:58 | |
until he was slapped
down by Philip Hammond. | 0:25:58 | 0:26:00 | |
So yes we would borrow,
but we would get in | 0:26:00 | 0:26:09 | |
a return on that money
because we would be | 0:26:09 | 0:26:11 | |
investing in things
that | 0:26:11 | 0:26:14 | |
the community needs. | 0:26:14 | 0:26:15 | |
And why didn't you do that? | 0:26:15 | 0:26:17 | |
The truth is that
for many generations | 0:26:17 | 0:26:19 | |
of government of different colours,
we have not been building the number | 0:26:19 | 0:26:21 | |
of homes that we needed. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
That has to be faced up to. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:24 | |
That is true. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:25 | |
Why didn't you do
what she suggested? | 0:26:25 | 0:26:27 | |
So... | 0:26:27 | 0:26:28 | |
What Sajid Javid suggested. | 0:26:28 | 0:26:29 | |
Diane suggested... | 0:26:29 | 0:26:30 | |
Sajid Javid suggested it. | 0:26:30 | 0:26:32 | |
Well, Diane suggested that we should
have, allow councils | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
to build council houses. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:37 | |
In the Budget that is precisely
what they have been not | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
just allowed, but encouraged to do. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:43 | |
There is £1 billion
that is going to be available | 0:26:43 | 0:26:46 | |
to councils for this. | 0:26:46 | 0:26:48 | |
And so far from having any objection
to councils building houses, I think | 0:26:48 | 0:26:51 | |
it is a fantastic thing. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:52 | |
In fact, there are more... | 0:26:52 | 0:26:53 | |
You're not freeing councils to
borrow as much as they would want? | 0:26:53 | 0:26:56 | |
No, it is part of the national debt. | 0:26:56 | 0:26:58 | |
That is the point she's making. | 0:26:58 | 0:26:59 | |
With low interest rates
you can afford to | 0:26:59 | 0:27:01 | |
borrow a lot more. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:02 | |
Well, they are being able to borrow. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
They can't borrow what they want. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:05 | |
They can borrow £1 billion more. | 0:27:05 | 0:27:07 | |
It's not very much,
is it, for housing? | 0:27:07 | 0:27:09 | |
There are more houses
that have been built | 0:27:09 | 0:27:11 | |
in the last seven years than under
the entire period of Diane's | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
appeared in government. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:15 | |
That is tit-for-tat stuff. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:16 | |
The thing is, sorry, let me finish. | 0:27:16 | 0:27:17 | |
There's a big problem about housing. | 0:27:17 | 0:27:19 | |
You say there is. | 0:27:19 | 0:27:20 | |
All the speeches from the Tory
conference have said it. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | |
When it comes to it,
what are we offered, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:32 | |
300,000 new houses
by 2022 or something? | 0:27:32 | 0:27:33 | |
It's nothing. | 0:27:33 | 0:27:34 | |
It's nothing to grab
the imagination are | 0:27:34 | 0:27:36 | |
confident people looking for houses. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:37 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:39 | |
300,000 homes a year was the level
of house building that we | 0:27:39 | 0:27:44 | |
achieved when Harold Macmillan,
after the war, was prime minister. | 0:27:44 | 0:27:47 | |
That is what we need to do
to make a big difference. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
We were a much smaller
country in those days. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:52 | |
300,000 a year is a lot. | 0:27:52 | 0:27:54 | |
But actually, we are
making big progress | 0:27:54 | 0:27:57 | |
compared to where we were after
the financial crisis. | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
The figures just for,
just imagine the last few | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
weeks, in the last year we build,
we added 217,000, that is getting up | 0:28:04 | 0:28:09 | |
to the level we need to,
but we have got further to go. | 0:28:09 | 0:28:12 | |
That is why, in very
difficult circumstances, | 0:28:12 | 0:28:18 | |
the money is not awash,
as it has been clear | 0:28:18 | 0:28:20 | |
from our discussion. | 0:28:20 | 0:28:21 | |
That's not what Diane said. | 0:28:21 | 0:28:23 | |
She says money is awash. | 0:28:23 | 0:28:24 | |
That £15 billion has
been found to invest | 0:28:24 | 0:28:28 | |
in housing is very important.
But let me pick up Diane's point. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:31 | |
This is the problem. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:33 | |
Tories talk about
building houses but | 0:28:33 | 0:28:35 | |
they are not houses that people
with average salaries can afford. | 0:28:35 | 0:28:37 | |
APPLAUSE. | 0:28:37 | 0:28:40 | |
No we can't. | 0:28:40 | 0:28:41 | |
All right. | 0:28:41 | 0:28:44 | |
We have to avoid this becoming
the House of Commons. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:47 | |
We have three other guests. | 0:28:47 | 0:28:48 | |
The removal of stamp
duty on house purchases | 0:28:48 | 0:28:51 | |
for first-time buyers
on | 0:28:51 | 0:28:55 | |
£300,000 more or less valued houses,
is a step in the right direction. | 0:28:55 | 0:28:58 | |
But I believe the green belt should
be built on and it should be built | 0:28:58 | 0:29:01 | |
on soon. | 0:29:01 | 0:29:02 | |
I think there is about 92%
of our land mass just not built on | 0:29:02 | 0:29:06 | |
at all. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:07 | |
Instead of talking about council
houses all the time, we need | 0:29:07 | 0:29:09 | |
to build on land we already
have that is not used. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:12 | |
Like new garden cities
like Milton Keynes, in the | 0:29:12 | 0:29:14 | |
70s, we should have more
projects like that. | 0:29:14 | 0:29:18 | |
It's slowed down because we won't
build on places you think | 0:29:18 | 0:29:20 | |
we should? | 0:29:20 | 0:29:21 | |
Yeah. | 0:29:21 | 0:29:22 | |
We should definitely like... | 0:29:22 | 0:29:23 | |
Milton Keynes was like
the 60s or the 70s. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:25 | |
Stuart Rose, what do you think? | 0:29:25 | 0:29:27 | |
Well, I think there is plenty
of brown space available | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
to build on as well,
I think we know that. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:32 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:29:32 | 0:29:33 | |
But the real issue is,
nobody is arguing, we need | 0:29:33 | 0:29:36 | |
to build more houses. | 0:29:36 | 0:29:37 | |
And what I say is, frankly,
as somebody who is from business, | 0:29:37 | 0:29:39 | |
is I've heard politicians,
and we heard from Greg, | 0:29:39 | 0:29:42 | |
from both parties for 50 years
telling us they are going to build | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
200, 300, 200, 300. | 0:29:45 | 0:29:46 | |
They never meet the targets. | 0:29:46 | 0:29:47 | |
They never put enough money in. | 0:29:47 | 0:29:48 | |
The real reason is there's not
enough joint infrastructure, | 0:29:48 | 0:29:51 | |
incentives in place for councils
to build social housing, | 0:29:51 | 0:29:53 | |
or for builders to build affordable
housing, or for that to be done | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
in a way which is seamless. | 0:29:56 | 0:29:58 | |
And I'm afraid, also,
which goes back to the skills | 0:29:58 | 0:30:00 | |
conversation we had,
we actually don't have enough | 0:30:00 | 0:30:02 | |
trained people at the moment. | 0:30:02 | 0:30:04 | |
One of the reasons we can't
build houses is we don't | 0:30:04 | 0:30:06 | |
have enough builders. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:07 | |
And we need to train builders. | 0:30:07 | 0:30:11 | |
What about the freedom of councils
to build houses in their own areas? | 0:30:11 | 0:30:14 | |
And also for them to borrow enough
money to be able to do so. | 0:30:14 | 0:30:17 | |
You think they should be allowed to? | 0:30:17 | 0:30:19 | |
Yes. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:21 | |
But he says they can't
be allowed to. | 0:30:21 | 0:30:23 | |
Well, anything can be
done, David, if we want. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:25 | |
We could change the rules. | 0:30:25 | 0:30:26 | |
Greg, why don't
you change the rules? | 0:30:26 | 0:30:28 | |
I'll come to you. | 0:30:28 | 0:30:29 | |
Just briefly. | 0:30:29 | 0:30:30 | |
Try and explain what the constraint
is that stops you doing | 0:30:30 | 0:30:33 | |
what Stuart Rose is suggesting. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:36 | |
The constraint is this,
that we have one of the highest | 0:30:36 | 0:30:39 | |
levels of debt, still,
in the Western world. | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
It is well over 85%
of our national income. | 0:30:41 | 0:30:47 | |
And the trouble is that you can't
just borrow more and more and more | 0:30:47 | 0:30:53 | |
and add to that debt
without interest rates rising, | 0:30:53 | 0:30:55 | |
and without lenders not
being willing to support you. | 0:30:55 | 0:31:00 | |
And if you do that, you pay more
interest on that debt. | 0:31:00 | 0:31:02 | |
So you think the Labour policy... | 0:31:02 | 0:31:04 | |
Yes. | 0:31:04 | 0:31:05 | |
Hang on, you think... | 0:31:05 | 0:31:07 | |
Labour is always saying,
as Diane just said, interest rates | 0:31:07 | 0:31:11 | |
are very low at the moment. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:13 | |
You're saying if they do build more,
interest rates will rise. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:15 | |
Diane, equally, says you make
money on what you invest. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:18 | |
Interest rates are at
a near historic low, | 0:31:18 | 0:31:20 | |
as we know, but already today,
the interest, the annual interest | 0:31:20 | 0:31:24 | |
on our national debt is,
last year was £48 billion. | 0:31:24 | 0:31:29 | |
If I tell you that the police
budget is £12 billion, | 0:31:29 | 0:31:34 | |
I don't think that adding more
to our interest payments, | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
which would have to be
at the expense of public services, | 0:31:37 | 0:31:39 | |
is the responsible way to go. | 0:31:39 | 0:31:41 | |
Of course we would like to have
more house building, | 0:31:41 | 0:31:43 | |
but we have to be responsible. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:46 | |
Bernard. | 0:31:46 | 0:31:48 | |
For me, I think at the moment
clearly we have a massive problem. | 0:31:48 | 0:31:51 | |
We need 200,000 houses
a year for a while. | 0:31:51 | 0:31:53 | |
And the response at the moment,
I think, is quite incremental. | 0:31:53 | 0:31:56 | |
20,000 is nowhere near. | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
And there are two
effects, obviously. | 0:31:59 | 0:32:01 | |
One is that the price of houses that
are there are getting | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
more and more expensive. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:05 | |
Some people haven't got houses. | 0:32:05 | 0:32:06 | |
There was a report by
Mark Easton on the BBC News | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
about four weeks ago now. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:10 | |
This happens to be London,
and there were families | 0:32:10 | 0:32:12 | |
who were living in a pub. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:14 | |
Single room, sharing one room. | 0:32:14 | 0:32:17 | |
It just looked... | 0:32:17 | 0:32:19 | |
It didn't look awful,
it was awful that in this country, | 0:32:19 | 0:32:22 | |
in this day and age,
that was happening. | 0:32:22 | 0:32:25 | |
I'm sure nobody wants that,
but that's a pretty | 0:32:25 | 0:32:27 | |
awful state to get to. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:28 | |
So of all the things
that we might need a tsar for, | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
you might need someone to grab this
and then do lots of | 0:32:32 | 0:32:34 | |
things, not one thing. | 0:32:34 | 0:32:35 | |
And I think I agree with this
gentleman over here all right, | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
it's good for the 300,000. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:40 | |
But alone that won't do it. | 0:32:40 | 0:32:41 | |
I don't think a billion's
going to do it. | 0:32:41 | 0:32:43 | |
Things like infrastructure. | 0:32:43 | 0:32:44 | |
It's the job of government to put
in roads and rail so that builders | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
can build around it. | 0:32:47 | 0:32:49 | |
Then you will get things to happen. | 0:32:49 | 0:32:50 | |
You can tax incentivise it. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:51 | |
You can innovate. | 0:32:51 | 0:32:52 | |
You don't have to carry on building
buildings in the same way. | 0:32:52 | 0:32:55 | |
You have prefab buildings. | 0:32:55 | 0:32:57 | |
You can get top-end range
houses now, prefabs. | 0:32:57 | 0:32:58 | |
Why can't we get mid-range houses? | 0:32:58 | 0:33:00 | |
You can speed up planning. | 0:33:00 | 0:33:05 | |
I agree with rent controls,
provided it was an interim measure. | 0:33:05 | 0:33:07 | |
I think if you disturb
the market too long, | 0:33:07 | 0:33:09 | |
I don't think that's
wise for anybody. | 0:33:09 | 0:33:11 | |
But you could do it for three
to five years while some | 0:33:11 | 0:33:14 | |
of these things took effect. | 0:33:14 | 0:33:15 | |
But I do think it needs
a comprehensive plan and it doesn't | 0:33:15 | 0:33:18 | |
feel at the minute comprehensive. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:19 | |
And you've got a lot
of people who are losing, | 0:33:19 | 0:33:22 | |
well, their life chances,
kids, as they are growing | 0:33:22 | 0:33:24 | |
through pretty awful circumstances. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:25 | |
I think we need to do
something pretty quickly. | 0:33:25 | 0:33:27 | |
OK. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:28 | |
Let's go to the audience. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:30 | |
You, sir. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:32 | |
I think it's an absolute disgrace
for the minister to rely on this | 0:33:32 | 0:33:35 | |
argument about lack of money. | 0:33:35 | 0:33:37 | |
He ought to live in Colchester. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
There is no infrastructure
here to support the houses. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:45 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:33:45 | 0:33:52 | |
The hospital can't cope,
the roads can't cope. | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
Just explain what you mean. | 0:33:55 | 0:33:57 | |
Well, Colchester is probably one of
the largest areas of house building | 0:33:57 | 0:34:03 | |
in the south-east of England. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
That's the first point. | 0:34:06 | 0:34:08 | |
It has had a record
number of houses. | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
It outperforms all the Essex
towns by a country mile. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:16 | |
And yet the council
here is determined to | 0:34:16 | 0:34:18 | |
build 920 homes a year. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:25 | |
The hospital can't cope,
the roads can't cope. | 0:34:25 | 0:34:26 | |
The schools can't cope. | 0:34:26 | 0:34:29 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:34:29 | 0:34:34 | |
I'm sorry. | 0:34:34 | 0:34:35 | |
So you think that the government's
ambitions are overambitious | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
in terms of Colchester,
that too many houses | 0:34:38 | 0:34:40 | |
are being built? | 0:34:40 | 0:34:42 | |
Yes. | 0:34:42 | 0:34:43 | |
They're trying to lump more
houses on Colchester. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
This is what the latest
white paper is saying, | 0:34:47 | 0:34:50 | |
that Colchester Borough Council have
rejected that approach. | 0:34:50 | 0:34:54 | |
But they want, because Colchester
has delivered so many houses | 0:34:54 | 0:34:56 | |
in the past, they want to lump more
houses on Colchester. | 0:34:56 | 0:35:00 | |
And the people of Colchester
are completely fed up with it. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
OK. | 0:35:03 | 0:35:05 | |
Dreda. | 0:35:05 | 0:35:09 | |
That's very interesting. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:11 | |
I completely agree there has
to be infrastructure. | 0:35:11 | 0:35:14 | |
You can't just build, you have
to service your actual community. | 0:35:14 | 0:35:17 | |
But I keep going back
to the question about stamp duty. | 0:35:17 | 0:35:22 | |
And before I came today,
I went back to where I grew up, | 0:35:22 | 0:35:25 | |
which is a very poor part of east
London. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:27 | |
And I went online to look at some
houses on one of those online | 0:35:27 | 0:35:31 | |
websites that collates
all the information about all | 0:35:31 | 0:35:34 | |
the property being sold. | 0:35:34 | 0:35:37 | |
42 pages, 25 properties a page. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:39 | |
I got to page 20 before I found
anything that was under a million. | 0:35:39 | 0:35:46 | |
And when I got to page 42,
there were no properties that | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
were 500,000 or less. | 0:35:49 | 0:35:54 | |
This is the reality
for lots of people who live | 0:35:54 | 0:35:57 | |
in some of our cities,
particularly places like London. | 0:35:57 | 0:36:00 | |
So for me, and I'm completely
in agreement with Bernard, Greg, | 0:36:00 | 0:36:03 | |
the government have got
to have an overall strategy. | 0:36:03 | 0:36:08 | |
And I feel it should be a strategy
that stops talking about housing. | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
It has to include rent. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:12 | |
We need to start
talking about homes. | 0:36:12 | 0:36:14 | |
Let's have a home strategy. | 0:36:14 | 0:36:15 | |
If we start talking about people
need homes where they live, | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
where they can have roots,
where their children can | 0:36:18 | 0:36:21 | |
grow up, it just changes
the narrative completely. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:24 | |
Because very often we think
about housing, we think bricks | 0:36:24 | 0:36:27 | |
and mortar, and very often
we are actually thinking | 0:36:27 | 0:36:29 | |
about investment. | 0:36:29 | 0:36:31 | |
Let's start thinking about making
homes for people in Britain. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:40 | |
We're more than halfway through,
well over half way through. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:42 | |
I want to go to other subjects
but I want to take a couple more | 0:36:42 | 0:36:46 | |
points from our audience. | 0:36:46 | 0:36:47 | |
The woman there. | 0:36:47 | 0:36:48 | |
I feel like I'm part
of the generation that is never | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
going to be able to afford
my own home. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
I have a fairly good salary,
I pay a very expensive rent | 0:36:53 | 0:36:56 | |
which means I cannot save. | 0:36:56 | 0:36:57 | |
These 920 houses that Colchester
are committed to building, | 0:36:57 | 0:36:59 | |
I'd love to be able to afford one. | 0:36:59 | 0:37:01 | |
I can't save for a deposit. | 0:37:01 | 0:37:03 | |
I could easily pay for a mortgage. | 0:37:03 | 0:37:05 | |
It would be a lot
cheaper than my rent. | 0:37:05 | 0:37:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:37:07 | 0:37:08 | |
The man at the very
back, behind you. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:10 | |
At the very back. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:12 | |
Of course a lack of house building
is one of the main contributors | 0:37:12 | 0:37:15 | |
to the housing crisis,
but what's the government | 0:37:15 | 0:37:17 | |
going to do about land banking,
which is often overlooked, | 0:37:17 | 0:37:20 | |
where effectively landlords profit
from people being homeless? | 0:37:20 | 0:37:25 | |
OK. | 0:37:25 | 0:37:29 | |
You can just briefly answer John,
because we've got to move on. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
John is absolutely right in saying
that infrastructure has | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
to accompany house building. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:37 | |
It goes to Bernard's point
that the package that Sajid Javid | 0:37:37 | 0:37:39 | |
announced included infrastructure
to support house building. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
And to the gentleman's point there,
he is absolutely right. | 0:37:42 | 0:37:46 | |
We've had 322,000 planning
permissions, but only about half | 0:37:46 | 0:37:48 | |
have been built out. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:50 | |
So again, what my colleague has
proposed is that there are powers | 0:37:50 | 0:37:53 | |
to allow councils to get those homes
built, rather than just sitting | 0:37:53 | 0:37:57 | |
with planning permission. | 0:37:57 | 0:38:01 | |
That's why you do need to bring it
together into a strategy. | 0:38:01 | 0:38:04 | |
There's not one single panacea. | 0:38:04 | 0:38:05 | |
You need to work across fronts. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:15 | |
I'm afraid at this point we had to
curtail this edition of Question | 0:38:16 | 0:38:21 | |
Time. A member of the audience was
taken ill and could not safely be | 0:38:21 | 0:38:25 | |
moved, so we had to bring the
programme to a close. | 0:38:25 | 0:38:28 | |
moved, so we had to bring the
programme to a close. Let me tell | 0:38:28 | 0:38:30 | |
you about next Thursday. Question
Time is coming from Scarborough and | 0:38:30 | 0:38:34 | |
we have Labour MP Chuka Umunna,
former Greek finance minister Yanis | 0:38:34 | 0:38:39 | |
Varoufakis, and the new leader of
Ukip, Henry Bolton on the panel. The | 0:38:39 | 0:38:44 | |
week after that we will be in
Swansea. Call us if you would like | 0:38:44 | 0:38:52 | |
to be in either audience, or go to
the website and follow the | 0:38:52 | 0:38:55 | |
instructions. Question Time extra
time follows on five live. Once | 0:38:55 | 0:39:02 | |
again, apologies for this curtailed
edition of Question Time. Until next | 0:39:02 | 0:39:07 | |
Thursday, from Colchester, good
night. | 0:39:07 | 0:39:12 |