Browse content similar to 20/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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stabbed in the stomach when he tried to go to Jo Cox's aid, has been | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Just days till the vote and the referendum | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
Should the UK leave the EU or remain a member? Those on both sides of the | :00:12. | :00:28. | |
argument will be debating here in Glasgow. | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
Also on the programme, rail workers are set to strike. | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
Industrial actions scheduled for tomorrow after talks break down | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
And Celtic's new manager trains his new squad, | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
as the draws are made for Scotland's football teams in Europe. | :00:39. | :01:04. | |
Good evening and welcome to a specially extended edition | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
of Reporting Scotland which includes our EU | :01:08. | :01:08. | |
But first today's news, and with just days to go | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
to the vote, the sides in Scotland have stepped up their campaigning. | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
The First Minister told nurses that leaving the EU would end up harming | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
But Ukip's Scottish leader said Nicola Sturgeon couldn't be trusted. | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
This from our political editor Brian Taylor. | :01:27. | :01:35. | |
The referendum is dominant and so addressing the Royal College of | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
Nursing Congress in Glasgow, the First Minister took care to make her | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
own position clear. I will be voting to remain in the EU on Thursday and | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
I hope others will do so, too. She told the nurses a British exit would | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
damage the NHS as economic decline would bring spending cuts, and she | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
broadened her case. I think it is still looking close across the UK, | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
which is why it is really important that everybody who wants to remain | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
part of the world's biggest single market, to protect our freedom of | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
travel across the EU, to protect workers' rights and the notion that | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
countries come together in the modern world to work together for | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
the greater good, if that is all important to you it is vital to get | :02:21. | :02:29. | |
out and vote Remain on Thursday. Look straight into this camera... | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
Ever obliging, the Ukip Scottish leader follows photographic advice. | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
He says Nicola Sturgeon, be trusted on the NHS as her own record is | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
poor. For him, this referendum is about choice and the UK we gaining | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
control. My campaign message is voted to leave the European Union. | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
It is in Scotland's interests. We get to decide who runs our country, | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
we get our fishermen back, and we get to be run by our own Parliament, | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
not Brussels, by Holyrood, so make sure we make our own decisions and | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
we can throw people out once every five years. Our democratically | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
elected colleague Jo Cox... five years. Our democratically | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
afternoon, in Westminster, tributes to MP Jo Cox, who was shot dead. MPs | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
united today is wearing the white rose of her native Yorkshire. But | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
they and voters will divide once more for the referendum this | :03:30. | :03:30. | |
Thursday. Rail passengers across Scotland | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
are facing the first in a series of strikes tomorrow, | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
after talks at the conciliation The RMT union says ScotRail wants | :03:38. | :03:48. | |
to water down and wipe out the safety role of the guard | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
on long-distance journeys, ScotRail say this is nonsense | :03:54. | :03:55. | |
and the majority of services Here's our correspondent Andrew | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
Kerr. Raising a flag about rail safety. A | :04:00. | :04:10. | |
protest outside HQ this morning. At the moment, on long-distance diesel | :04:11. | :04:12. | |
trains there is a guard and driver and the God operates the doors. On | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
the electrified suburban routes, where 59% of journeys take place, | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
there is a driver and ticket examiner but the driver operates the | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
doors. -- guard. ScotRail says it wants to reduce the safety role of | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
the gods, replacing the role with ticket examiners. When there has to | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
be an evacuation, the ticket collector is not trained for that, | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
and people like to see guards on trains. As of reasons, but it is the | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
critical safety role, evacuations, the protection of the travelling | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
public. That's what we want to maintain. Scott well have expressed | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
their frustration, saying safety and jobs are not at risk. -- ScotRail. | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
They say they want to get back around the table for | :05:03. | :05:04. | |
negotiations in around a round who opens and closes doors. For 30 years | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
we have operated a safe system. They say it does not exist. 59% of | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
our customers today travel So it is so disingenuous, so | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
avoidable and unnecessary. So it is so disingenuous, so | :05:18. | :05:30. | |
efforts to resolve the strike failed at the conciliation service in | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
Glasgow at lunchtime. The prospect of a strike can be annoying for any | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
travellers in any part of the country but for commuters in the | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
central belt it is particularly frustrating, as they are facing long | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
journeys already because of the Queen street | :05:45. | :05:45. | |
improvement works. It's taken 50 minutes to come | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
through and it's pretty me right off. Not good. Trains are cancelled | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
or delayed. I'm going down to Yorkshire so it | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
won't affect me. It is or was frustrating. You plan your day ahead | :06:05. | :06:05. | |
and you hope that is what is going to happen so you | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
take the best. -- always frustrating. Another six days of | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
action are planned, with passengers being urged to check their journeys | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
online before travelling. There's been a further | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
fall in crimes reported They fell by just over 3% in | :06:26. | :06:26. | |
the year to the end of last March. There were fewer murders but overall | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
violent crime was up by 5.6%, with serious assaults rising | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
by just under a quarter. Sexual crimes also increased, | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
although police say many of these offences were historical, | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
and there were fewer rapes. Celtic's summer break | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
is over already. New manager Brendan Rodgers | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
and his squad had their first And there was an immediate focus | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
on the European Champions League, as the qualifying draw | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
was made this morning. Monday afternoon in Lennoxtown, and | :06:58. | :07:10. | |
Brendan Rodgers gets his first chance to look at the Celtic | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
players. And he must hit the ground running. Success vital in the | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
Champions League campaign which begins in just over three weeks. | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
He's very experienced individual, he has looked after many clubs call and | :07:22. | :07:30. | |
he has a good understanding. He's followed the club for a long time | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
and he understands the pressure that comes with the job. Celtic will face | :07:33. | :07:43. | |
a trip to either the Estonian side or Lincoln of cobalt. The first leg | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
will be away on the 12th or 13th of July, with a returned the following | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
week. The more likely opponents to emerge from the first qualifying | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
round tie will be the Estonian club. It has never been relegated from the | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Estonian top division. But also battling to meet Celtic are the link | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
red imps, a semiprofessional club from Gibraltar. As we all was do, we | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
will approach the game with the preparation done and make sure we do | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
our homework. -- always do. The team should be fully prepared going into | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
the game because we can take no chances with it being the Champions | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
League. Celtic have lost in the final play-off round in the last two | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
season. -- seasons. Their aim is to reach the final Champions League | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
group stages. And Scotland has three other teams | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
in European action next season. The draw for the qualifying rounds | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
of the Europa League In ten days' time, Aberdeen will be | :08:44. | :08:45. | |
at home to Fola Esch, from Luxembourg, while in Edinburgh, | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
Hearts play Infonet of Estonia. Hibernian will meet Valur Reykjavik | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
or the Danish side Brondby. That's in the second | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
qualifying round in mid-July. I'll be back later with the weather | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
forecast, but now it's time to cross to my colleague Glenn Campbell | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
for a special EU referendum debate. Thank you. Debating life before our | :09:07. | :09:19. | |
audience here in Glasgow this evening, leading In and Out | :09:20. | :09:27. | |
campaigners. For Remain, Joanna Cherry. The Leave, the former SNP | :09:28. | :09:35. | |
Jim Sellers. And for Remain, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party | :09:36. | :09:37. | |
Mr Dugdale. Mr Dugdale. | :09:38. | :09:46. | |
-- Mrs Dugdale. So our panellists will be taking questions from the | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
audience, which include committed supporters in equal numbers and some | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
undecided voters as well. Let's go to our first question, which comes | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
from Fraser. How large of a shock to the UK economy would a Brexit be? | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
Let me put that first of all to KC. Dale. I think it would be a very | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
significant shock. I think it would be very serious and we would see the | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
results almost immediately as the markets open on Friday. I'm not here | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
to scare you into that prospect. I think it's good to create jobs, to | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
sustain the economy we have, to create opportunities for young | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
people, and there's no question it's been good for workers' rights. We | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
can now make sure we don't compete with our neighbours on the amount of | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
holiday leave, the amount we earn in a day and maternity and paternity | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
rights, and dots all because we have been in the EU and I hope it | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
continues. -- that is all. I don't like the word shock. They may be | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
some short-term uncertainty. I'm broadly with Lord rose, the leader | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
of the Remain campaign, and that is that it would settle down after a | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
period of time, and despite all the scaremongering that's been going on, | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
you look at the markets today, the Pounders broadly where it was when | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
actually the stock market went up. actually the stock market went up. | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
-- the pounds is broadly. I don't think that is the way to look at it | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
anyway. What we are looking at is whether we want to restore the | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
ability to make decisions in our Parliamentary democracy, and I | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
believe in Britain and I believe given the opportunity to control our | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
own destiny, we will prosper in the long term, and that's how we should | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
look at it. The UK Chancellor, George Osborne, has produced | :11:43. | :11:43. | |
look at it. The UK Chancellor, Treasury analysis which he says | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
would cost 43,000 Scottish jobs in two years of a Brexit. He's talked | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
about having to have an emergency Budget to plug ?30 billion of a | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
black hole in UK finances. Do you buy those figures? I think people in | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
Scotland are sick of this campaigning, constantly | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
scaremongering and raising fears, but what is undoubtedly true is that | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
member of the EU has brought very significant benefits to the British | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
and Scottish economy. For example, inward investment. For the -- | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
nations and regions, we have had the most investment to the tune of ?16 | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
billion per annum. In terms of our exports from Scotland, our exports | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
to the EU are worth 2000 per head for everybody in this country and | :12:32. | :12:32. | |
they support over 3000 jobs. If we for everybody in this country and | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
withdraw... But he is on the same side of the debate as you on this | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
occasion, and when the Chancellor says 43,000 Scottish jobs would go | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
within two years, are you saying he is | :12:49. | :12:48. | |
scaremongering or do you think those figures are inaccurate? What I'm | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
saying is, at the moment we are part of a free market and we have access | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
to 500 million other consumers, and this has brought massive benefit to | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
the British and Scottish economy. If we withdraw from that free market we | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
will no longer have access to that market, and of course it will have | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
an impact on jobs and investment... I'm not prepared to put a figure on | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
it and I'm not able to do so, but I'm saying it is a no-brainer if we | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
withdraw from the free market that it will affect jobs and investment | :13:22. | :13:30. | |
across the United Kingdom. There will be an agreement reached between | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
the European Union and a United Kingdom out of the EU. And I'll tell | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
you why. It is there in the trade figures. The European 27 exporter | :13:40. | :13:48. | |
costs around ?290 billion worth of goods and services a year. | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
-- export to us. We export to them 228 billion a year. So it is in the | :13:52. | :14:02. | |
interests of both sides, because the wager on a particular link trade is | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
only one way. It is a two-way trade and there are jobs tied up with | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
access to that market, and there are lots of jobs tied up in the EU about | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
access to our markets. Plus the fact that if we vote Brexit on Thursday, | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
we do not leave the EU on Friday. First of all, the United Kingdom | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
Government has to write a formal letter to the commission saying, we | :14:29. | :14:39. | |
wish to withdraw. On -- under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. So | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
we still have two years where we are members of the EU in that market, | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
and if you think of those figures and the millions of jobs on both | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
sides, common sense will in fact prevail. There will be a free trade | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
agreement. All common sense tells you that will be the case. And the | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
shock will not in fact occur. I will come back to the panel but I want to | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
bring in members of our audience. And perhaps bring in the questioner | :15:10. | :15:11. | |
on this festival. What do you think? on this festival. What do you think? | :15:12. | :15:20. | |
-- first of all. I think we need to leave and take back control. I think | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
the EU has proved itself to be a broken down institution at is very | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
core, so I think it's best we leave on our own terms and negotiate those | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
terms with the EU rather than have a disorderly Brexit from the EU at a | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
later stage. And do you think there will be an economic shock and that | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
is something we just have to absorb? Or do you think there is | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
scaremongering going on? I think there will be a short time period of | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
market volatility and turbulence, and once the markets get the idea of | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
the fact we are leaving the EU, they will quickly recover. OK. A | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
gentleman on the other side. How can you be so certain there will be an | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
agreement if we leave the EU? What of other countries rebel against us | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
because we have left? Which countries will rebel? I don't know | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
but there could be countries who rebel against us and you, be sure | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
they will let us have an agreement. You cannot be sure. | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
I'm not saying you would be 100% sure. What I'm saying is if you look | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
at the facts on the ground of trade and the jobs involved in euro coming | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
to us and our jobs going to them, common sense will prevail. It would | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
be a lunacy on their part to put trade barriers up against us, | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
because we would put trade barriers up against them and that serves | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
nobody's purpose. I'm assuming that all the hysteria from Merkel and Co | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
will in fact die down. For example, there is no way the German trade | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
unions, whose members are reliant on selling to you are market are going | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
to allow a European politician to act in a stupid way in reference to | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
a Free Trade Agreement between us and the EU. Now, I can't guarantee | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
00% that the politicians will come to their senses, but the facts on | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
the ground indicate clearly that they will. Joanna Cherry. Thank you. | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
Jim's right in the sense there probably would be an agreement in | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
due course. What matters about the agreement are the terms of | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
agreement. Look what the Norwegian Prime Minister told us last week. | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
She said if the British leave the European Union they won't like it. | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
Because in order to have free trade with the European Union, Norway has | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
to agree to border, passportless border checks in the Schengen area | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
and has to agree to the free movement of people. But it has no | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
say in how those regulations are reached. The Norwegian Prime | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
Minister described her Government as being like a lobbying organisation | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
in Brussels. That's not true, by the way. It is true, Jim. You can go | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
home and Google it. She described it as such, so take her word for it. | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
The difficulty is that we don't know what the terms of the agreement | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
would. Those who want to leave the European Union often cite migration | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
and the free movement of workers as one of the main reasons they want to | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
leave. If you want to be part of a Free Trade Agreement from outwith | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
the EU, you will have to agree to free movement of workers as Norway | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
and Switzerland has had to do. Lord Forsyth is shaking his head at that. | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
There are examples of countries who've a free trade with the EU who | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
don't have free moment of workers. Which countries? Turkey or | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
Liechtenstein. But we are not Liechtenstein or Norway. We are the | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
fifth largest economy in the world. APPLAUSE.. As Jim has pointed out, | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
they sell 62 billion worth of product to us. Anybody who thinks | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
with the German and the for example elections coming up, if we vote to | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
leave on Friday Angela Merkel's office isn't going to be filled with | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
BMW and VW and other manufacturers saying, for goodness sake we sell 1 | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
million cars to Britain every year, please make sure this free trade | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
existing agreement is maintained. Maintained. This is simple | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
scaremongering. You don't need to be in the EU in order to sell goods and | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
services to Europe. America does that. Those countries which are not | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
in the EU have been far better at increasing their exports than we | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
have as members. I want to hear from another couple of voices from our | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
audience and then I will come back to Kezo the panel. Our economy is | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
the fifth largest in the world but that relies heavily on trade, | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
particularly with the EU. The IMF has said the value of the pound | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
could fall as much as 10% on Brexit. If the pound were to fell in value, | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
it would help our export efforts enormously. It would made imports | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
more expensive, so it would be easier for our own organisations, | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
our own businesses to thrive and prosper. The point about the single | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
market, the use of the word market is misleading. It is a single | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
regulatory zone. Anyone can sell into the single market. Chinese or | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
the Indians and others do so. But they have to do it according to | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
terms. Tar tiffs will be applied. I want to hear from the audience. The | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
lady on this side. I'm still undecided but this is the nub of | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
where my dilemma lies will. Do the Remainors think this is worth | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
sacrificing their sovereignty for? I think we benefit from sharing a bit | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
of our sovereignty with other nations to have that strong economy, | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
to have workers' rights, to have the opportunities that young people get | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
from being part of Europe. Talking about the economic questions, you | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
are hearing four politicians argue about it. Look at what the business | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
leaders are saying, the Scottish whisky association are saying... | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
(Inaudible). We don't have a microphone. The Of course, the | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
economy is based on the people who generate the wealth. The Scottish | :21:14. | :21:15. | |
whisky association are saying to us generate the wealth. The Scottish | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
and to you it is hugely important to them that Scottish is part of the | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
European Union, because they can trade with 28 nations with one set | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
of regulations around marketing and health and safety and bottle size | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
and the rest of it. It is also an amazing platform for Scottish whisky | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
to get to China and to America that. Platform of being part of Europe is | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
hugely advantageous to trade beyond Europe as well as within Europe | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
itself. I'm inclined to listen to business, who says it is good for | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
the economy. Jim will talk about why it is a bad idea but I don't think | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
we should be afraid if we are stronger and better off overall. A | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
follow-up question, economy related from Adam. Will vote leave finance | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
the fishery and agricultural sectors to the same level as the EU after a | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
Brexit. Jim Sillars? I would imagine so. There is no reason why not. | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
Before we entered the European Union, in my time as a Member of | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
Parliament we had what were called efficiency payment to our farmers. | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
The money will be there to do so. I would doubt very much indeed if any | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
Government of any particular ideology would starve our | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
agricultural sector. By the way, on fishing, the final thing from the | :22:37. | :22:45. | |
SNP point of view, on fishing, the final thing from the SNP point of | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
view, since 19373 -- since 19373 was to get rid of the common fisheries | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
policy. Whether it is conducted from Westminster or Holyrood, that will | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
go down to the benefit of Scottish fishing. Stminster or Holyrood, that | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
will go down to the benefit of Scottish fishing. -- since 1973. Why | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
do you through the NFU in Scotland has come out against a British exit. | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
Arguing that overall benefits of staying in outweigh the advantages | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
that farm businesses would Duwayne from leaving the EU? I don't know | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
why he said that, because I've talked to lots of farmers who are | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
voting to leave, who would prefer the deficiency payment system that | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
we operated previously. People like the NFU say on balance, but there is | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
no figures provided by them that would clinch the art in that way. | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
And by the way, the common fisheries policy undoes the argument that | :23:40. | :23:41. | |
Kezia was making, that you share policy undoes the argument that | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
sovereignty in the EU. You do not share sovereignty in the EU. You | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
transfer sovereignty to the central institutions of the EU. The common | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
fisheries policy is a classic example of that transfer. Farming | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
and fishing, Joanna Cherry. The Common Agricultural Policy has | :24:03. | :24:04. | |
brought significant benefits to Scotland. Vital funding to farmers | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
and landowners to subsidise farming and forestry in difficult and | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
vulnerable areas. It provides significant funding to all sorts of | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
Najaf the rural area, all sorts of community and environmental | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
activities. Why the national farmers union of Scotland have said they | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
don't want to come out of the EU is clear, because they gave evidenced | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
to a Holyrood economy recently. They said 40% of the European Union | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
Budget is spent on the Common said 40% of the European Union | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
Agricultural Policy. Significant subs does come to Scotland and they | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
said nobody has told us what will replace those subsidies. George | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
Eustace, the Minister of State for farming in the UK Government and is | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
campaigning on the Leave side, says that farmers in his view would get | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
as much support or perhaps even more as they get now. That's his view. He | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
hasn't given any detail, which policy it is going to replace. He | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
can say whatever he likes but he has to give detail. Last year in the | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
Scottish independence referendum they produced a white paper with | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
detailed proposals. The Leave campaign has produced nothing of the | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
sort. Lord Forsyth is a director of vote leave. Leave.. It is nothing to | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
do with George Eustace, the moment we vote to leave on Friday, farming | :25:26. | :25:33. | |
and fishing will be the spotlight of the Scottish Parliament. I would | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
like to come back on that. It is a huge transfer of power to Scotland. | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
So the Scottish Parliament can decide what happens to our fishermen | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
and what happens to our farmers. I venture to suggest they'll be better | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
off. I've got a ten pound note here. Who is going to give me ?20 for it? | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
That's the deal in Europe. We pay them ?20 billion and we get 10 back. | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
And we are told how to spend it. Talk to any farmer in Scotland and | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
ask how it's been this year filling in the forms and the disaster of | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
paying the money. We send the money to Europe, who produce complicated | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
systems of grants, and it is sent back to uses in ways they determine. | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
I want the Scottish Parliament to be able to decide these matters and to | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
have a fishing the policy and agricultural policy which is right | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
for Scotland. I want to let Joanna Cherry pick up on that in a moment. | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
But I want to pick up this business of how much money will come to the | :26:28. | :26:29. | |
farmers. The Vote Leave battlebus of how much money will come to the | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
suggests the money we might save if we left in European Union | :26:35. | :26:36. | |
suggests the money we might save if contributions would be more likely | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
directed to the NHS. Well, with it isn't actually... You can't spend it | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
twice. Listen, this is not a general election. This is not about winning | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
or losing, but in whiching the public on the issues. At the end of | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
the day we will get money back. ?10 billion back. How it is spent is a | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
matter for the elected Governments, in Westminster for the Westminster | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
Government and in Scotland with agriculture and fishing and | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
education and other power which is will come back to Scotland, it will | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
be a matter for the First Minister and the Scottish Parliament to | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
decide. On that point, I want to hear from the audience. Let me | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
finish that point. And that is Hewitt should be. At the moment 60% | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
of our laws and regulations are made by unelected commissioners who are | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
accountable to no-one and whom you cannot get rid of. Fisheries and | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
farm have been devolved since 1998 but negotiating with other countries | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
over common fisheries policies and Common Agricultural Policies are not | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
devolved. Those from the preserve of Westminster. Furthermore... It is | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
called the Scottish Government now. Have you read the Scotland Act, Lord | :27:44. | :27:52. | |
Forsyth? Yes, I have. Negotiating with Governments is a devolved | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
matter. Jim talked about making trade agreements with other | :27:57. | :27:58. | |
countries. We have to replace what we have with something else. Here's | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
the other thing. Briefly, please. Lord Forsyth has said Scottish | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
Government will have more power. The economic levers of power remain at | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
Westminster. If the British Government is going to have more | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
money as a result of withdrawing from Europe... You don't accept | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
that? I said if. Who is to say it will give any of that money to the | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
Scottish Government to replace the subsidies we currently get for our | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
fishermen and farmers. APPLAUSE. | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
I think we have a farmer in our audience. Let's come to you. Make it | :28:37. | :28:47. | |
as a point. Well, it's a well-known fact that farmers have been in term | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
of the near on two years. There have been a few campaigns towards the | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
government and there is yet to be any support from UK Government base. | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
So what makes you think that if we exit Europe, they would support | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
farmers? Because they have an opportunity to do so just now. As I | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
understand it, you have yet to make up your mind and decide which way to | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
vote on Thursday? How big a concern is this for you in reaching that | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
decision? Oh, well, it is colossal, really. Because it is not just | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
farmers, is the whole rural economy. What is it you want the government | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
to do? What I'm saying is, we are still waiting on subsidy payments | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
that were due last year. If they can't deliver that, how on earth are | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
they going to deliver a Common Agricultural Policy within the UK? | :29:39. | :29:46. | |
But you have just explain that. If they can't deliver that how | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
wonderful they going to deliver... Our understanding is that it is | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
sitting at the door of the UK Government. So how can they deliver | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
their own policy? Let me bring in a voice from this side of the room. | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
The gentleman with glasses. I must confess, this is the second time | :30:05. | :30:05. | |
I've heard Lord Forsyth bring up confess, this is the second time | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
this phrase "Unelected bureaucrats". Does the term pot, kettle and black | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
spring to mind? APPLAUSE | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
Actually, the great virtue of our system on your point, which is a dig | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
at me because I'm a member of the House of Lords, which is accountable | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
to the House of Commons, the great virtue of our system is that you | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
were able to kick me out in 97 when you didn't agree with my policies. | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
You are still here! I want to hear more from the audience. You say | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
about the Common Agricultural Policy, but it doesn't actually work | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
for Scotland at all, to the point it could actually impact the barrel | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
production for the whisky trade which they talked up so well. It is | :30:56. | :31:05. | |
what your committee says in Hollywood. There's something else | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
Lord Forsyth said and that's the sense that 60% of laws come from | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
Europe, and that's just not true. Only 13% even reference to the EU, | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
let alone enforce laws made in Europe upon us. So it is another one | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
of these scaremongering stories that you accused us of right at the start | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
of your programme. The concerns about farming are very real indeed. | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
Likewise in the fishing industry. This is real and about | :31:37. | :31:38. | |
people'slivelihoods and is very serious indeed. The Scottish | :31:39. | :31:46. | |
fishermen 's Federation says they are neutral but they don't want to | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
lose out on the aspect of free trade because the current -- but the | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
current law doesn't work for them. It is really difficult but maybe | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
there aren't easy answers here. So I would say to you think about this. | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
Be you genuinely believe that a Tory government wants to give more | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
subsidy and more public money to you as a farmer? Do you believe they | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
genuinely want to give more money to our NHS? The Tories believe in | :32:13. | :32:14. | |
smaller state intervention and our NHS? The Tories believe in | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
smaller government. They are not out to help you get from one week to the | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
next or one season to the next. No doubt we will hear more from Lord | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
Forsyth as the debate goes on. This question comes from Sarah. I was | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
wondering, how would remaining in the EU or leaving effect or control | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
the higher levels of immigration we are experiencing across the UK at | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
the moment? I agree with Jeremy Corbyn, who said on the Andrew Marr | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
Programme on Sunday that while we are in the EU, it will be impossible | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
for us to control the levels of immigration. And I think that is | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
very important. I think we do need to have migrants coming to our | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
country but we need to be able to control the numbers so we are able | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
to match the services for the schools, the whole service, housing, | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
congestion on our roads and all the other things we have to live with in | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
congestion on our roads and all the our country. -- health service. | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
There are many countries not in the EU. In fact, most countries in the | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
world are not in the EU. But almost all countries I can think of think | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
it is important to be able to control their borders, who comes in | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
and who we can throw out. The fact that because of the EU court, we | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
find ourselves with serious criminals here that we cannot expel, | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
that is a good example of how we have lost control of our ability to | :33:41. | :33:50. | |
run our own affairs, and by leaving the EU, we can have an immigration | :33:51. | :33:52. | |
policy which meets our needs, brings the skills we need to Scotland and | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
the UK as a whole and also an immigration policy which is fair to | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
those who want to come here from non-EU countries. People from India, | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
Pakistan, South Africa, Australia, and so on, so we welcome people who | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
can make a real contribution to our economy and not turn people a side | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
who could make a huge contribution to the health service and other | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
services because we are stuck with our inability to control numbers | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
coming in from the EU. And in terms of net migration, EU citizens to the | :34:22. | :34:33. | |
UK, around 180,000 came to the UK. Obviously a smaller proportion to | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
Scotland. And yesterday, this interview Lord Forsyth referred to | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
on the Andrew Marr programme with your UK party leader, Jeremy Corbyn | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
was asked, is there any kind of upper limit to immigration coming to | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
this country? He said, I don't think you can have one while you have a | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
free movement of labour. First of all, I think we should recognise the | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
people choosing to live and make their lives in Scotland is a | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
positively good thing. It has added a tremendous amount to an society to | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
have those ethnicities and we should recognise that. Those figures you | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
highlighted are right. 180,000. It is a very small percentage of our | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
overall population. If you listen to the Leave campaign, and they | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
unveiled that horrific poster, you would think every immigrant coming | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
to this country gets a house, and they take everything from us. They | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
are being blamed and being told they are the fault of everything wrong | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
with our society... Just let me get this point out. The question I asked | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
you was about what Jeremy Corbyn said on the programme yesterday. Do | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
you agree there can be no limit? He is clear to say that as an aspect of | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
our current situation in the EU. That's right. But we also have to | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
recognise that immigration is much broader than people coming from the | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
EU. It is much more complex than that. And there is no solution to | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
immigration, however you feel about it, on the ballot paper on Thursday. | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
We are being asked about what kind of country and society we want to | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
be. Do we want to be one that is represented by Nigel Farage, who | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
labels immigrants as taking from us? Just 5% of EU immigrants claim | :36:18. | :36:26. | |
benefits. You are more likely to be treated by an EU immigrant in the | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
NHS than you are to be sat next to one. If you think there is a problem | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
in our country with access to GPs, not enough council houses to young | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
people, problems with school placements, blame the Tories, who | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
spent the last five years cutting public services. Don't blame | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
immigrants, because all they've done is invest in us. Seeing as Kezia | :36:48. | :36:58. | |
Dugdale mentioned the Tories, to start with, that poster she referred | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
to with the column of people seeking refuge in the EU with a banner on it | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
"Breaking point", what did you think when you saw that? I thought it was | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
a particularly stupid poster, because it was confusing two things. | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
Refugees and migrants. I would like to see us do more on refugees, and | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
that means being able to control the numbers coming into our country, | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
which we can do if we leave the EU. There is the most appalling | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
persecution going on in Syria of Christians and I've been trying to | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
persuade the Government to declare this as genocide, which would mean | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
we could intervene directly to help those people. So I thought it was a | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
silly poster. But, quite frankly, if this campaign is reduced to argue | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
about posters and Nigel Farage, when what is at stake is our democratic | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
future, then I think something has gone badly wrong. Let me bring in | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
the audience before I come back to our panellists. Back row. There was | :38:03. | :38:12. | |
a lot being said about immigration from people coming into the country | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
but immigration actually works both ways. There are 2.2 million Brits | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
who are working, living and retired abroad, and I would like to know | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
what is going to happen to them. If we come out of the EU, do they have | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
to come back? You know, what kind of future is therefore all these | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
people? OK. Pick up on that and your answer to the broader question. | :38:38. | :38:44. | |
There are about 40,000 Norwegians living in Spain, I think. I don't | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
think they will be greatly affected one way or the other, to tell the | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
truth. On immigration, let me make it perfectly plain that on the Leave | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
side, people have different reasons for wanting to leave. We are not all | :39:00. | :39:11. | |
Nigel Farages, let me tell you! And I think if the Leave side loses on | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
Thursday, he will be primarily responsible for the disgraceful way | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
he has conducted the argument on immigration. We need a rational, | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
sensible, adult discussion. Not so much a debate but a discussion about | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
immigration. Of course, numbers of people coming into our country | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
create a problem. The problem isn't culture or stealing someone's job. | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
It's being able to plan. When I was on a hospital board many years ago, | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
we needed a registrar general's figures in order that we could | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
allocate to different areas of the medical services. At one time, we | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
had children being born at a fair rate, so obviously we got those | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
figures that meant we could give more money to the maternity services | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
in Glasgow, which, combined with a birth rate, was a problem, because | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
this was before the slump took place. So we've got to be able to | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
say there are three categories of migrant. There are the asylum | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
seekers, whom we should welcome all the time without dispute. The other | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
two categories are short-term economic migrants, which I have been | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
one of them, incidentally. When I couldn't get work in Scotland, I | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
went to Saudi Arabia. This is quite important because we've had an awful | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
lot of stuff about people... But we are also pressed the time! The other | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
section of people who want to come and live here. In Scotland could do | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
with many more people from all over the world coming to live here | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
because our population was declining till we got the immigration | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
principally from eastern Europe, and it is now rising. A rising | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
population is good for us all. More prosperous and you have a bigger | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
home market. Let's have an adult, sensible discussion. OK, 3.3% of | :41:18. | :41:25. | |
those in Scotland at the moment are EU nationals. Further 2.1% from | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
outside the EU. That's the EU nationals. Further 2.1% from | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
proportion. There is absolutely no reason why free movement within the | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
EU should prevent us doing our fair share to take in refugees fleeing | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
from war and troubled areas in the middle east. And there's absolutely | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
no reason why free movement, people within you, should prevent us having | :41:49. | :41:56. | |
a sensible immigration policy for people out with the EU. -- people | :41:57. | :42:04. | |
within the EU. We have people wanting to take part in the Scottish | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
economy being sent home to Australia. Only 3% of the Scottish | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
population currently comes from the EU and only 5% in the UK comes from | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
across the EU, and various studies over the last couple of years have | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
shown migrants from the EU make a net contribution to the British | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
economy, so that is that they are paying more in by way of taxes than | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
they are taking out by way of benefits. So I think we need to | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
challenge the myth because that is what is creating -- challenge the | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
myth that what is creating pressure on our services is migrants from the | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
EU. It's not. What is creating pressure is the failure of this | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
Conservative government to invest properly in the services, | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
particularly the NHS, and affordable housing. OK... I need to come back | :42:52. | :43:00. | |
on this. We are not in charge of the amount of money that we spend on the | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
NHS. Yes, you are! It is dependent on the buyer formula. Do you not | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
blame the Scottish Government for the economic failures of the Tory | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
government? Why should people in Scotland have to pay more than | :43:16. | :43:17. | |
government? Why should people in people in England to have basic | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
decent public services? Is that your party policy? We are running out of | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
time. Let be hear from the lady on this side and then the gentleman | :43:30. | :43:30. | |
here. I was appalled the other day | :43:31. | :43:40. | |
Michael Gove suggested that if we leave the EU Scotland will be able | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
to sort out its own immigration issues. Talking about families like | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
the Brains from outside the EU. Appalled, why? Because it is | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
disingenuous. On the basis of what we've experienced post referendum I | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
wouldn't believe a word they say. APPLAUSE. Thank you for that. Joanna | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
I agree there's a skills gap in Scotland but with the EU we have no | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
control over what skill the workforce comes in. Surely it makes | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
sense to have a system where you prioritise the skills gap you keep | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
mentioning. You can have both. You can't control it. We can talk all | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
night about this topic but we need to move on about another. Thank you | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
for your contributions. Our next question is from Jamie McEwan. | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
Wouldn't it be better to be an independent Scotland outwith the EU, | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
or part of the UK within the UK? An independent Scotland within the EU. | :44:47. | :44:53. | |
Other options are available. It depends what happens in the | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
referendum on Thursday. But if there's a Brexit and Scotland votes | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
to stay in, what happens, Kezia Dugdale? I don't think we should | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
have to pick between two unions. I want to be part of the European | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
Union and within the European Union. If we are in a situation on Friday | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
morning where we have voted as a United Kingdom to leave the European | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
Union, I think the arguments for staying part of the UK become even | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
stronger. We will set ourselves a task of leaving our second biggest | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
trading partner. So much we discussed tonight is linked to. Why | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
would we want to leave our first biggest trading partner, our nearest | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
neighbours in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. The Labour Party's | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
position is we oppose a second referendum on independence over the | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
lifetime of the next five years, because we all respect democracy. We | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
were told it was a once in a lifetime, once in a generation | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
activity. In an interview in February you contemplated that in | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
these circumstances it wasn't inconceivable you might back an | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
independent Scotland. I think everyone would be thoughtful and | :46:08. | :46:09. | |
reflective about that. You've changed your mind? I thought we were | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
in a position in Scotland where we could have a more nuanced | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
conversation about the constitution. It turns out in Scotland we are | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
divided between yes and no. The clearly black and white. Having | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
thought about it I believe strongly, as I did throughout the independence | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
referendum, that Scotland's future best lies within the United Kingdom. | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
I think especially if we were to leave the European Union, and I | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
sincerely hope we don't, that relationship becomes even more | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
important. I'll be even more drawn to campaigning to remain within that | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
United Kingdom if we leave the European Union. Joanna Cherry. Kezia | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
and I are on the same side tonight, which is pleasant. We were on | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
different sides during the independence referendum. Those of | :46:52. | :46:59. | |
you who took any interest in the referendum, we were told by Better | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
Together, the only way to guarantee Scotland's membership of the | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
European Union was to vote no and stay in the United Kingdom. In the | :47:08. | :47:10. | |
event this Thursday the United Kingdom votes to leave the European | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
Union and Scotland votes to remain in the European Union, the | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
circumstances in which people voted to remain in the UK in 2014 will | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
have changed materially and significantly. If our manifesto for | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
the Holyrood election, the SNP said that we felt the Scottish Parliament | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
should be entitled to hold another referendum if there was material and | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
significant change in the circumstances that pertained in | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
2014. Do you think that's what happened? Alex Salmond said it would | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
happen within two years, what do you think? I think there would be a | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
groundswell of support for a second referendum if Scotland is taken out | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
of the European Union against her will. I base that on what people are | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
saying to me on the doorsteps. People are concerned they were told | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
in 2014 the only way to remain in the European Union was to vote no. | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
Now they face being taken out of the European Union against their will. I | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
want to see Scotland as an independent member state in the | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
European Union. But so long as Scotland remains in the United | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
Kingdom, I want to see the United Kingdom remain in the European | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
Union. I think that's in the interests of the whole of the UK | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
economy. That's why the SNP has been trying to run a positive campaign | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
for the whole of the UK to remain in the European Union. | :48:27. | :48:35. | |
APPLAUSE. Jim Sillars? That's pure kidology. I will tell you why. I've | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
read the manifesto and I've also read these words in the Sunday | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
Herald. This is from Nicola. I am clear that if Scotland does face | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
being taken out of Europe against our will, the option set out in our | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
consideration. It is a slippery word consideration. It is a slippery word | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
- consideration, by the way. The SNP does not have a mandate to hold a | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
second independence referendum. In the same position in 2016 as Alex | :49:11. | :49:19. | |
Salmond was in 2007. A minority Government, with this difference. | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
Alex at least asked from a mandate. In 2016, Nicola had the opportunity | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
to add words there, saying, in the event of Brexit turning out this | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
way, I ask you for a mandate in order to hold a second referendum. | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
She doesn't have the mandate. And the power to, the legal power to | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
grant a referendum is at Westminster. The only way you can | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
lever that out of Westminster is having a majority combined with a | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
mandate. You then have the moral authority to say, our people want | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
it. The next time that the SNP might get a majority and might ask for a | :50:04. | :50:12. | |
mandate is 2021. OK, so it wouldn't happen according to Jim Sillars... | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
For them to pretend to the yes voters that if Brexit turns out the | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
way Joanna described, we are on our way to a referendum. A promise that | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
she cannot fulfil. It is not kidology. I have the greatest | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
respect for Jim, but he is wrong on this issue. Tonight doingle the SNP | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
manifesto and look at page 24 and you will see the words I've set out | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
for you. We may not have a majority Government but the SNP received | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
46.5% of the vote. That's the highest mandate that any Government | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE ALL TALK AT ONCE | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
. . You have already had a say on this one. I'm don't have one. I'm | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
confused about the SNP's position. If the argument is, and it looks | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
like the polls suggests if England votes to leave but Scotland votes to | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
remain, we should have another referendum, the simple message to | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
anyone who wants to keep the union is that you should vote to leave in | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
Scotland. Otherwise it will be used as ammunition to make the case for | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
another referendum. And all the polls show that the majority of | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
people in Scotland do not want to have another referendum. By the way, | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
if on Friday people vote to remain in the European Union, which I'm | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
opposed to, I will accept the result, because I'm a democrat. I | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
think it is a disgrace that the SNP continue to damage Scotland's | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
interests by continuing to drag out this idea that we could leave the | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
United Kingdom, and if we were to leave the United Kingdom with the | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
oil price where it is, we would be bust. By the way, the EU wouldn't | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
have you, because you wouldn't be able to meet the debt criteria. I | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
want to not this nonsense on the head that we would be bust. Figures | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
show if Scotland wore an independent country, they would have a deficit | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
of ?7 billion. Ladies and gentlemen, the United Kingdom has a deficit of | :52:13. | :52:22. | |
?76 billion. It is an utterly disingenuous argument. Most | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
countries in Europe have a deficit. Scotland would have a small deficit. | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
The UK has a deficit of ?76 billion. Think object that. It is nonsense. | :52:30. | :52:39. | |
The gentleman on the front row. Your entire campaign for the the Scottish | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
independence referendum was - everything will stay the same. | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
That's why you wanted the EU as an exit result. But if we are out of | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
the EU, you've lost one of ve lost one of your status quo options - | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
keep the Queen, keep the pound, keep the EU. You will now be asking the | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
Scottish people to leave the UK and join the EU if we were out. I don't | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
think people were asked if they want to join this thing called the EU | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
they would say yes. You are assuming that everyone person would be a | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
citizen of the European Union. The European Union has expanded greatly | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
in recent years, with many small newly independent nations joining | :53:21. | :53:21. | |
it. It is simply ridiculous to think newly independent nations joining | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
that an independent Scotland would not be welcomed in the European | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
Union. These are issues of our time. Would you have the pound? We would | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
have to look at the situation pertaining at the time. You can't | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
expect me to make a decision about that here and now. We would need to | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
look at the economic conditions at the time. We probably wouldn't want | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
to be tied to a pound if it nosedived after a Brexit. Jim | :53:49. | :53:57. | |
Sillars? In 2014, in a letter to the Scottish Parliament from the | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
Vice-President of the European Union, they told us the the day | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
you're independent, you are out. In other words, get stuffed! They were | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
on the side of Better Together. There is no reason to believe they | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
wouldn't tell us to get stuffed next time if the UK remains inside the | :54:14. | :54:21. | |
European Union. Distinguished legal opinion says Scotland would have a | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
right to remain in the United Kingdom. Thank you very much indeed | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
to the four on our panel and to our audience here. That's all we've got | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
time for. Voting is on Thursday. APPLAUSE. | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
Well, our political editor Brian Taylor joins me now. | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
Let's start at the end of that, because there was claim and | :54:42. | :54:51. | |
counterclaim about what the EU referendum will mean for Scottish | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
independence. You've got some clarity on that. The entire thing is | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
the uncertainty of a referendum on Thursday. I think what the Scottish | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
Government might seek to do. I do not think they would regard an | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
independence referendum as absolutely a guaranteed prospect in | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
the event that Britain leaves. But I think they would try to set the | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
trail in motion. I think for example they might seek what's known as a | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
Section 30 agreement, as was done prior to the referendum in 2014. To | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
have that on the table in the event they would call a referendum. Nicola | :55:25. | :55:31. | |
Sturgeon would argue circumstances have materially changed. Overall, of | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
the 45 minutes, what's your analysis of the arguments. I'm struck by the | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
way the economy and immigration comes to the fore, and neither side, | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
and I don't blame them for this, this is the nature of politics and | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
the absence of forecasting for the future. Each side has to say trust | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
me with regard to the prospectus on the economy. People have to made up | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
their mind which of the two they trust. Time and time again it became | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
party political as opposed to remaining leave. Kezia Dugdale | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
saying don't blame the European Union, blame the Tories. Lord | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
Forsyth trying to rebut that. Jim Sillars saying if Leave losed, he | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
said that would be the responsibility, the blame, the | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
fault, for Nigel Farage for what Jim Sillars believes is getting it wrong | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
on immigration. Weather now, and as it's the summer | :56:29. | :56:29. | |
solstice Kirsteen MacDonald is on beautiful Nairn | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
beach this evening. Thank you Jackie. Good evening to | :56:33. | :56:41. | |
you from just east of inverness in. We are marking the summer solstice, | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
the longest day of the year. This year it is falling on June 20th | :56:46. | :56:55. | |
because of of it being a leap year. Indeed, we are expecting around 17 | :56:56. | :56:57. | |
hours of daylight across Scotland. Certainly here on Nairn beach, a lot | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
of sunshine. A pleasant day here. A marked improvement on the type of | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
weather we have seen in much of the north-east of Scotland over the last | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
few weeks, with a nagging northeasterly wind. As far as this | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
evening is concerned, across the country a fine evening, with spells | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
of brightness and sunshine. Any showers tending to fade away | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
tonight. We have clear spells for eastern areas. In the west, there'll | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
be a fair amount of cloud around. We'll have some showery outbreaks of | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
rain feeding into the north-west. On a fairly keen south to southwesterly | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
breeze. Not really a cold night for most of us. Temperatures will told | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
up at 10-12 Celsius. Atures will told up at 10-12 Celsius. Tomorrow - | :57:42. | :57:43. | |
much of the east and the south, another fine day to um can, with | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
spells of brightness and sunshine developing. More cloud across the | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
west and further outbreaks of rain developing. More cloud across the | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
in the north-west. Taking a closer look tomorrow afternoon. Across much | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
of the south and through central areas, it is looking fine and dry. | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
Brightness and sunshine. For much of the west, the north-west especially, | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
outbreaks of rain, perhaps something drier across the Western Isles at | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
times. For the Northern Isles a peppering of showers. A fine day for | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
the north-east, with spells of brightness and sunshine. Highs of 20 | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
Celsius. Not much change as we intheed the evening, with the best | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
of the sunshine in the east and the south. As we head into Wednesday, | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
again really quite a decent day of weather to come across Scotland. A | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
fair amount of brightness and sunshine around. Perhaps a | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
scattering of showers at times. Temperatures wide lid into the mid | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
to high teens. Peaking at 20 Celsius. Ide lid into the mid to | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
high teens. Peaking at 20 Celsius. Thursday - again another quite | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
decent day of weather to come. Especially in the east. Jack | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
written, that's the forecast from Nairn beach. Plenty of sunshine | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
around. I might go and build myself a sandcastle. Back to you. You do | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
that, Kirsty. Now a reminder of | :58:57. | :58:58. | |
tonight's main news. Rail passengers across Scotland face | :58:59. | :59:07. | |
the first in a series of strikes tomorrow after talks at ACAS between | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
the RMT union and ScotRail broke down. | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
I'll be back with the headlines at 8.00pm and the late | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
Until then, from everyone on the team, have a very good evening. | :59:23. | :59:32. |