21/03/2017 Reporting Scotland


21/03/2017

Jackie Bird and Glenn Campbell host a live debate as a panel of leading politicians look at the impact of Brexit on Scotland and the options for Scotland's future.


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Heated exchanges in the Scottish Parliament as MSPs debate

:00:00.:00:08.

whether there should be a second independence referendum.

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For the UK Government to stand in the way of Scotland even having a

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choice would be, in my view, wrong, unfair and utterly unsustainable.

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Most people in Scotland are sick to death of The Games. Most people in

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Scotland don't want another referendum any time soon.

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Nicola Sturgeon wants another vote by Spring 2019,

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the Prime Minister says that's too soon.

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Join me for a special debate as an audience of viewers put their

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questions on independence and Brexit to Fiona Hyslop from the SNP and

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Adam Tomkins from the Scottish Conservatives. Also tonight...

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A medical tribunal hears about the chaos at Heathrow Airport

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as ebola nurse Pauline Cafferkey returned from Sierra Leone.

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And keeping it in the family - how a married couple

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from the Borders have made military history.

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Nicola Sturgeon has accused the Prime Minister of acting

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as a "road block" preventing Scotland from having a real choice

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But the First Minister's critics said she would use

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anything as "an excuse" to promote independence.

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The exchanges came during the first day of debate over a demand

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for Theresa May to concede a second referendum on Scotland's future.

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This from our political editor Brian Taylor.

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It is about time, timing, complex, political interplay. Theresa May is

:01:50.:02:02.

about to signal the start Britain's withdrawal from the European Union.

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That should take two years. She doesn't want to contemplate a

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Scottish referendum during that period. But that strikes Nicola

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Sturgeon as unfair. She says Scotland should be given a choice

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before or just as Britain leaves the European Union. Between autumn 2018

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and spring the year after. Nicola Sturgeon said it weighed heavily

:02:28.:02:31.

upon her to call a rougher random, which many didn't relish. But she

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blamed the Prime Minister for refusing to compromise on continuing

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Scottish links with the EU. It will simply not be acceptable for the UK

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Government to stand as a roadblock to the democratically expressed will

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of this Parliament. For the UK Government to stand in the wake of

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Scotland even having a choice, would be, in my view, wrong, unfair and

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utterly unsustainable. But union supporters harked back to the

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Edinburgh agreement which paved the way for the independence referendum

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in 2014. They said the SNP had broken its pledge to respect the

:03:07.:03:12.

outcome and a rerun was wrong. Most people in Scotland are sick to death

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of The Games. Most people in Scotland don't want another

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referendum any time soon, three years after the last one and most

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people in Scotland see the common-sense in our own position.

:03:24.:03:29.

Which is a second independence referendum shouldn't even be

:03:30.:03:33.

contemplated until Brexit is resolved. Labour's leader said she

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hated Tory rule, but... They want to replace Tory austerity with

:03:40.:03:43.

turbo-charged austerity. Because the truth of the matter is, separation

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would mean ?15 billion worth of cuts. Willie Rennie said those

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against the referendum had faced a torrent of abuse from Independent

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supporters. A second referendum would only make that worse. It will

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be defied amylase, it will divide him Billy Maka communities and

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divide communities. That is what happened last time. It is nice to be

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given such a warm welcome. Ironic groans greeted Patrick Harvie.

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Critics said the Greens have ruled out a referendum unless there was

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public demand, but Mr Harvey brushed that aside. It is, Presiding

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Officer, absurd to suggest we should not respond to and react to the

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situation and the fundamentally changed circumstances we find

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ourselves in. Outside Parliament, the attendant media, observing,

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scrutinising. There is sound, there is light and tomorrow, there is a

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vote on whether Holyrood demands another independence referendum.

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Did we learn anything new in the debate?

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One of the arguments were familiar, but we saw displayed again, the very

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fact there is vehement discourse over independence on occasion.

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Actually today, it was vitriolic. We saw the entrenched positions of the

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various parties. But one thing differs, in 2014 he was accepted

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there was to be referendum and the discourse was the nature of

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independence on offer. This time it is not accepted there should be a

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referendum. Those supporting the union say it is unwanted and

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unwelcome. The First Minister says there will be instability in the UK

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constitution and the question is whether joins in a choice with

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regards to that change. Do you think the argument we are hearing at

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Holyrood today and tomorrow, will influence Westminster in any way? I

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don't see that happening. And the Conservative leader described this

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debate as Groundhog Day. When she and David Blondel stood up on

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Thursday responding to the primers's remarked that she would not

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contemplate another referendum at this point, David Blondel said doing

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it ahead of the debate was to leave the SNP in no doubt before they cast

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the vote. And that vote will be tomorrow evening here at Holyrood.

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Thank you very much. Meanwhile, it's understood MPs have

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put off a final decision on whether the issue of a future

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referendum on Scottish independence should get a further

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airing at Westminster. An e-petition calling for a ban

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on it has attracted more The Commons Petitions Committee

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today considered whether a debate should be held by MPs

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on the subject, but failed The expectation is that it will be

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debated, but it may be linked to a counter petition in favour

:06:42.:06:45.

of a second independence referendum. The First Minister has paid tribute

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to Martin McGuinness, the former deputy First Minister

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of Northern Ireland who died today. Nicola Sturgeon says

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without his "hard and brave work" to bridge the divide,

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peace would not have been achieved. Ms Sturgeon got to know

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Mr McGuinness through their work She said he was optimistic

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about the future but also understood the "fragility"

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of the peace process. The death of Martin McGuinness has

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brought intense reflection both on his role as former IRA commander

:07:16.:07:18.

and as one of the architects of Tonight, while he received praise

:07:19.:07:21.

from a former Scottish MP who served at the Northern Ireland Office,

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the family of a soldier murdered by the IRA said they hoped

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Martin McGuinness would be remembered as a terrorist

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and not a statesman. Killed by the IRA in March 19 71.

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He'd only been in the province a few weeks. It was a honey trap, longer

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two other Scottish soldiers, teenagers John and Joseph McCague,

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you was Lord to a remote spot and shot dead. It was a pivotal moment

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and shattered their families. His cousin David was just three at the

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time. No one has been convicted of the murders and an inquest returned

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an open verdict. But David said the scar on his family has never healed.

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He is convinced that as an IRA commander at the time, Martin

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McGuinness must have known who was responsible. Martin McGuinness

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played a part in the republican movement along with Gerry Adams. If

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anything happened on the streets, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness

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knew about it. Today, some of those who worked with Martin McGuinness

:08:43.:08:45.

during the peace process say he played a crucial role in forging the

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Good Friday agreement. There was a good Martin McGuinness and a bad

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Martin McGuinness. He fought the bad fighter but then went on to fight

:08:57.:09:00.

the good fight. Because of that we have the situation in Northern

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Ireland today which is unparalleled. There is a peace process there and

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he is a big feature of that. 46 years on, still campaigning for a

:09:11.:09:14.

public enquiry into the deaths of the soldiers, David says he remains

:09:15.:09:18.

convinced that Martin McGuinness went to his grave with secrets.

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People will look on him as a statesman, other people will look

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upon him as a terrorist. A doctor has told a tribunal

:09:26.:09:30.

about the awful conditions that medical staff had to work

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in during an Ebola outbreak The hearing is investigating

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the circumstances surrounding Scottish nurse Pauline Cafferkey's

:09:36.:09:38.

return to the UK. But this disciplinary medical

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correspondent, Dominic Hughes. But this disciplinary medical

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tribunal in Manchester heard today from Doctor Sharon Irvine, along

:09:53.:09:57.

with Doctor Hannah Ryan and Pauline Cafferkey were part of NHS

:09:58.:10:00.

volunteers who travelled out to Sierra Leone in 2014 at the height

:10:01.:10:06.

of the Ebola clinic. She told the tribunal of the horrendous

:10:07.:10:10.

conditions. 40 degrees heat, wearing top to toe protective clothing with

:10:11.:10:14.

goggles and masks. It was extremely hot and they had to wear compares in

:10:15.:10:18.

case one of them fainted and all the time surrounded by people who were

:10:19.:10:22.

dying from Ebola. So not surprisingly at the end of their

:10:23.:10:26.

stint, they were keen to be reunited with friends and family back at the

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UK. When they arrived at Heathrow Airport they were confronted by a

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screening Centre. That was described as chaotic, it was crowded, it was

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noisy. She went through that screening process but when she was

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in the arrivals hall, she was approached by Dr Hannah Ryan who

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said there was a problem with Pauline Cafferkey's temperature.

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Says she said immediately, we have got to contact Public Health England

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and get her back into screening. We do know Pauline Cafferkey had gone

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back into screening but had taken paracetamol, head temperature had

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back into screening but had taken come down a bit so she was allowed

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to get on the flight to Glasgow. The next day she collapsed and was

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diagnosed with Ebola. The tribunal also heard from nurse Donna would he

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was with Pauline Cafferkey and Dr Ryan when Dr Ryan the Pauline

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Cafferkey's temperature and Dr Ryan's QC suggested it was nurse

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Donna Ward who wrote the wrong temperature down on the format they

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had to fill in, but she denies that. Hannah Ryan has admitted she knew

:11:35.:11:38.

Pauline Cafferkey had a higher temperature and she went along with

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writing down the lower temperature on the form. She failed to tell

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Public Health England staff there was a problem with the temperature

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and then she failed to be entirely straight, initially at least, with a

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public-health enquiry after the event. She says her actions don't

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amount to misconduct. Moves are under way to extradite

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a retired priest from Canada to Scotland in connection

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with child abuse claims. The Crown Office has been granted

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a petition warrant for the arrest of Father Robert MacKenzie,

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who lives in Saskatchewan. The 84 year-old taught

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at the former Fort Augustus Abbey School before moving

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to Canada in 1988. Papers are now being prepared

:12:13.:12:14.

in the Crown Office to submit an extradition request

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to the Canadian authorities. A plumber is to face trial accused

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of causing a gas explosion in 2013, which saw this home's owners buried

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in the rubble. Craig Hall is alleged to have failed

:12:25.:12:26.

to properly install a boiler at Robin and Marion Cunningham's

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house in Callander. A married couple from the Borders

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are making military history. Lieutenant Colonel Gill Wilkinson

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is passing command of her regiment Meet Mr and Mrs Allen and Gill

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Wilkinson. They are all so both Lieutenant Colonel Wilkinson and one

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has just taken the job from the other. Alan is in charge of Gill's

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old regiment, making them the highest ranking couple to follow

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each other in a command role. When a commanding officer leaves the

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command, they don't look back at the regiment, they leave the next seal

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to carry on. Although I am trying to do that, I can ask how people are

:13:26.:13:29.

getting on and satisfied that parental bed. We work in a court

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where men and women do equal jobs. It is unusual to have the husband

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taking over from the wife or the other way around. There will always

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be good banter. You have almost finished the course? Alan is

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settling well into his white's old job while she is taking another

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position in the reserves. They say this unusual handover shows how

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opportunities for women in the Army are changing. Since I joined,

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opportunities are increasing. Women are moving into combat roles. Does

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Gill have any advice for her husband? She is always giving me

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valuable advice. So yes, some is good, some I listen to and I do make

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my own assessment. Both Lieutenant Colonel Wilkinson resists the

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temptation to talk shop at home. Scotland's third most-capped rugby

:14:30.:14:34.

player is to bring an end to his 17-year career at the end

:14:35.:14:37.

of the season. Sean Lamont, seen here scoring

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against Italy, amassed 105 The 36 year-old also helped

:14:41.:14:42.

Glasgow Warriors to their first ever I'll be back later, but now

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we to cross to my colleague Glenn Campbell for a special

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Brexit debate. The Prime Minister Theresa May is

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going to start the two-year process to take the UK out of the EU next

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Wednesday. Tomorrow, a majority of MSPs are expected to back Nicola

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Sturgeon in her call for the power to hold a second referendum on

:15:17.:15:21.

Scottish independence, towards the end of the Brexit negotiations.

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Plenty to talk about then. Debating before this live audience, two MSPs

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with different views on Brexit and independence. We have the Scottish

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Conservatives, Adam Tomkins who is a professor of constitutional law. And

:15:39.:15:43.

the Cabinet Secretary for external furs, Fiona Hyslop from the SNP.

:15:44.:15:45.

APPLAUSE They will be taking questions both

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from me and from our audience, which includes members from both sides in

:16:02.:16:04.

the independence debate, and some who are undecided. Let's go straight

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to our first question, which comes from Janet... Should Theresa May be

:16:09.:16:14.

allowed to delay the Scottish referendum because of Brexit? Should

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she be allowed, Fiona Hyslop, to delay beyond the point of the

:16:22.:16:26.

conclusion of the Brexit negotiations? The answer to that is

:16:27.:16:31.

no. What we do agree with Theresa May on is, what we suggesting is, we

:16:32.:16:35.

have a referendum at the point when we know what the terms of the Brexit

:16:36.:16:39.

deal are. It should not be now. So we agree on that. That would allow

:16:40.:16:43.

the Scottish people to have the choice on what they want. Brexit has

:16:44.:16:46.

changed everything, and we need to make sure that Scotland is in the

:16:47.:16:50.

best position to make sure that we can take advantage of the things

:16:51.:16:53.

that are important to Scotland in terms of the type of country we want

:16:54.:16:57.

to have, in terms of the economy, and what is in the best interests of

:16:58.:17:02.

the economy. Also from a democracy point of view, it is really

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important that it is the people of Scotland who have the choice, airing

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in mind that 62% of people voted to remain. I know there's mixed

:17:09.:17:15.

feelings. Some people may have changed their minds, but the choice

:17:16.:17:19.

has two lies not with the politicians or the First Minister,

:17:20.:17:22.

it really has to live with the people of Scotland at that time.

:17:23.:17:27.

That would be 18 months to two years away, when the content of the Brexit

:17:28.:17:34.

deal is available. And at that point, the choice should be with the

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people of Scotland. The timetable the First Minister has suggested is

:17:38.:17:41.

between the autumn of next year and the spring of 2019, surely we should

:17:42.:17:46.

know the broad details of our exit deal from the EU by then, what is

:17:47.:17:51.

wrong with that timescale? The question of the timing is really

:17:52.:17:55.

extremely important. I think it is important that we understand how

:17:56.:17:57.

this was done, with the independence referendum in 2014. It was done by

:17:58.:18:03.

both the Westminster government and the Scottish Government agreeing a

:18:04.:18:09.

timescale so the Section 30 order which was passed in Westminster

:18:10.:18:11.

which gave the Scottish Parliament the power, legally come to hold that

:18:12.:18:17.

decisive referendum in 2014, had to be held within a certain window of

:18:18.:18:21.

time within a period which was agreed by the United Kingdom

:18:22.:18:24.

government and the Scottish Government acting together. What

:18:25.:18:27.

happened last week could hardly be more different from that process.

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Because what happened last week was the First Minister of Scotland

:18:35.:18:39.

announcing some kind of unilateral demand that there had to be a second

:18:40.:18:43.

independence referendum, notwithstanding the fact that the

:18:44.:18:47.

SNP had said it was a once in a generation event, there had to be a

:18:48.:18:51.

second referendum within a certain period of time, between the end of

:18:52.:18:57.

2018 and the beginning of 2019. I think Theresa May, as Prime Minister

:18:58.:19:00.

of the whole of the United Kingdom, is absolutely right to say that now

:19:01.:19:03.

is not the time to ask this question again. But what about towards the

:19:04.:19:09.

end of the Brexit negotiations, which is what the First Minister is

:19:10.:19:14.

for, can she sit down with the Prime Minister and come to an agreement

:19:15.:19:17.

between we have to understand this from a position of principal. I go

:19:18.:19:21.

back to the principles which were laid down in the Edinburgh

:19:22.:19:24.

agreement, signed by Nicola Sturgeon, as do pity First Minister,

:19:25.:19:27.

as well as by David Cameron and others from both governments. That

:19:28.:19:32.

agreement said that an independence referendum was to be clear, fair,

:19:33.:19:36.

legal and precise. It just wouldn't be fair to ask the people of

:19:37.:19:39.

Scotland to decide on the independence question while there is

:19:40.:19:44.

no clarity around either what the United Kingdom's relationship with

:19:45.:19:48.

the European Union is going to be, or indeed Scotland's relationship

:19:49.:19:54.

would be, either. Contact there will be more clarity around the Brexit

:19:55.:20:01.

deal by the time we get to 2018, and there will be serious concerns about

:20:02.:20:05.

the management of the whole Brexit process. Remember, it is about

:20:06.:20:09.

democracy. Let me bring in some members of the audience. Starting in

:20:10.:20:17.

the back row. European citizens were allowed to vote in the independence

:20:18.:20:23.

referendum in 2014. According to the timescale suggested by Theresa May,

:20:24.:20:28.

it will be very likely that we will not have a voice in another

:20:29.:20:32.

referendum if it happens after Brexit. You would want EU citizens

:20:33.:20:38.

to have that voice? I would like to have a voice. Presumably you are

:20:39.:20:43.

anticipating that there will be a demand for another referendum, on

:20:44.:20:46.

the basis of that question. The gentleman here. Is it not

:20:47.:20:50.

unreasonable to ask the Prime gentleman here. Is it not

:20:51.:20:54.

Minister to fight a constitutional issue in the UK simultaneously with

:20:55.:20:59.

the EU? Is it not a distraction from the objectives of the Brexit

:21:00.:21:02.

negotiations? Perhaps we will pick up on that. The lady in the front.

:21:03.:21:10.

Brexit means the entirety of the UK is leaving the EU. There's no

:21:11.:21:18.

guarantee that the EU will then allow Scotland to debate for itself

:21:19.:21:21.

a package to remain within the EU whilst we are still part of the UK.

:21:22.:21:26.

I think it is not necessarily true to suggest that the two could happen

:21:27.:21:31.

at once, in such a timescale. So you're not against another

:21:32.:21:33.

independence referendum, but it should happen after the UK has left?

:21:34.:21:40.

I am massively against another referendum, not at all. But I think

:21:41.:21:44.

the SNP is really misleading Scotland on what we are actually

:21:45.:21:47.

capable of negotiating with the EU. Lady next to you is shaking her

:21:48.:21:52.

head. Given the fact that the political landscape has changed,

:21:53.:21:56.

there is no question that Scotland voted to remain in the EU. So Brexit

:21:57.:22:01.

actually forces an undemocratic action on a democratic people. We

:22:02.:22:05.

have a clear mandate to have a second referendum, which was in the

:22:06.:22:11.

manifesto, that should circumstances change, we have the right to have a

:22:12.:22:14.

second referendum on independence. Let's pick up that point. There was

:22:15.:22:18.

a reference to this in the SNP manifesto, but as we mentioned in

:22:19.:22:23.

the introduction, Adam Tomkins, by this time tomorrow, the Scottish

:22:24.:22:27.

Parliament, by majority, will probably have urged the First

:22:28.:22:29.

Minister to seek power from the UK Government to have another

:22:30.:22:34.

referendum. What does the Prime Minister tactic? Well, since the

:22:35.:22:38.

last election of a Scottish Parliament in May of last year, the

:22:39.:22:41.

SNP government have lost five different votes on five different

:22:42.:22:44.

subjects in the Scottish Parliament. And they have ignored every single

:22:45.:22:49.

one - on education, on health, on enterprise boards, on energy. So if

:22:50.:22:54.

the Scottish Government can ignore the verdicts of the Scottish

:22:55.:22:57.

Parliament, when the Scottish Parliament is supposed to be

:22:58.:23:00.

accountable, what on earth is the grounds for saying that the vote

:23:01.:23:04.

tomorrow on a non-binding motion should somehow bind the hand of the

:23:05.:23:09.

United Kingdom's Prime Minister when the United Kingdom's Prime Minister

:23:10.:23:14.

is about to embark on what will be the most complex and difficult

:23:15.:23:17.

negotiations of our political lifetime? Socially should stick to

:23:18.:23:24.

her guns? I don't think the vote in the Scottish Parliament tomorrow

:23:25.:23:26.

night will make any difference to the way in which the Prime Minister

:23:27.:23:30.

has to carry on with her job as the Prime Minister of the United

:23:31.:23:32.

Kingdom, and that job is to secure the best deal on leaving the

:23:33.:23:36.

European Union for the whole of the United Kingdom, including for

:23:37.:23:40.

Scotland. I agree that the noises around a second independence

:23:41.:23:43.

referendum at this in a butcher in time are a distraction from what is

:23:44.:23:47.

the most difficult and bishops and important set of negotiations that

:23:48.:23:51.

the United Kingdom will be embarking upon in our lifetimes. The speaker,

:23:52.:24:01.

we are not saying... Fiona Hyslop, why should the UK Prime Minister,

:24:02.:24:04.

the UK Government, respect the will of the Scottish Parliament, when as

:24:05.:24:09.

Adam Tomkins pointed out of the Scottish Government doesn't always

:24:10.:24:13.

do that? We do, we go back to Parliament on all those votes that

:24:14.:24:17.

he mentioned. A mandate in a manifesto clearly adds wait and is a

:24:18.:24:24.

mandate to have a referendum in changed circumstances. It's not just

:24:25.:24:27.

about the Scottish Government, it's also about the Scottish Parliament

:24:28.:24:30.

and the will of the people of Scotland. In Scotland, the people of

:24:31.:24:34.

Scotland are sovereign. I want to get back to the point the audience

:24:35.:24:38.

were making about the Brexit negotiations. If we're going to be

:24:39.:24:48.

held captive by a hard Brexit right-wing Conservative government

:24:49.:24:50.

for two years, maybe more, just to see if it might work out all right,

:24:51.:24:54.

that's a very dangerous position to be in. It's about democracy but it

:24:55.:24:59.

is also about the people of Scotland having the choice. That to me is the

:25:00.:25:04.

fundamental part of it. That's why the Scottish Parliament's vote

:25:05.:25:08.

tomorrow is not just about Brexit or independence, it's about the right

:25:09.:25:10.

of the Scottish people to exercise their sovereignty. Which we

:25:11.:25:18.

exercised in 2014 and we said no. Changed circumstances. You are

:25:19.:25:24.

determined that there should be another independence referendum on

:25:25.:25:27.

that basis, but what if the Prime Minister says no, she's rejecting

:25:28.:25:32.

the timetable, what will you do then? Theresa May has to respect the

:25:33.:25:37.

sovereignty of the Scottish people. But if she says no, what is your

:25:38.:25:42.

next move? We have been waiting patiently to have engagement on the

:25:43.:25:46.

context of the Brexit has voted for by the United Kingdom. We have put

:25:47.:25:49.

forward compromise proposals which would have had a situation where

:25:50.:25:53.

Scotland could have remained as part of the single market. I understand

:25:54.:25:57.

that, but if the position is that the Prime Minister is not prepared

:25:58.:26:00.

to transfer the power, to have another referendum in the timescale

:26:01.:26:04.

that the First Minister has set out, what you can do? We are now within

:26:05.:26:08.

the eight days of the Article 50 letter which will take the UK out of

:26:09.:26:13.

the European Union, and we have no content or detail about that. There

:26:14.:26:19.

is fundamental constitutional change taking place. Is it an option for

:26:20.:26:23.

you to have another referendum anyway, without the authority of

:26:24.:26:27.

Westminster? Well, we want a referendum which is legal and

:26:28.:26:30.

constitutional. We think we have got the authority for the Scottish

:26:31.:26:33.

Parliament by a democratic vote tomorrow, that is the authority that

:26:34.:26:38.

we would have. But can you have a referendum without that authority?

:26:39.:26:44.

In the past, the Conservative Party has ignored the will of the people

:26:45.:26:46.

In the past, the Conservative Party of Scotland, and we saw what

:26:47.:26:50.

happened in the 1980s and 1990s. I think it would be otherwise... But

:26:51.:26:55.

if she says no, do you still argue that it is an option but when we are

:26:56.:27:00.

on a course of action which is to take the will of the people of

:27:01.:27:03.

Scotland as democratic and exercised through the Scottish Parliament...

:27:04.:27:08.

We are none the wiser. We are none the wiser of the content of the

:27:09.:27:12.

Brexit letter which is going to to drag Scotland out of the EU against

:27:13.:27:16.

our wishes, despite nine months of us trying to get some kind of

:27:17.:27:21.

information regarding Scotland's interests as part of that. That is

:27:22.:27:23.

the immediate issue facing interests as part of that. That is

:27:24.:27:24.

Scotland's. The lady at the back. interests as part of that. That is

:27:25.:27:35.

Fianna, if Scotland became an independent country, I would really

:27:36.:27:40.

like to see changes in the NHS, especially mental health. And do you

:27:41.:27:44.

see another independence referendum as an opportunity to change our

:27:45.:27:47.

country, a positive opportunity? Yes. And here? I would like to put

:27:48.:27:54.

the question, given the SNP's whole premise for this second referendum

:27:55.:27:57.

would be to retain Scotland's position within the European Union,

:27:58.:28:01.

the party itself is now rolling back from the position of suggesting that

:28:02.:28:07.

the DEC or the FTA could be a alternative. So you're undermining

:28:08.:28:12.

your own case. A country like Norway for instance is in the European free

:28:13.:28:16.

trade Association, and through that, the European economy area, which

:28:17.:28:20.

allows it to be in the single market but not in the union. I just want to

:28:21.:28:28.

bring Fiona Hyslop in on that very point, are you watering down the

:28:29.:28:33.

need for full EU membership? No, we're not. What we are proposing is

:28:34.:28:41.

to have a system, as part of a compromises, by which Scotland could

:28:42.:28:44.

remain as part of the single market, even if the rest of the UK left.

:28:45.:28:48.

That is part of a compromises deal, what we wanted. Theresa May is not

:28:49.:28:53.

engaging with that, so therefore so that we can pursue the interests on

:28:54.:28:57.

the social and democratic and economic side, we now have to have

:28:58.:29:00.

the choice to be able to make sure we can have some options for a

:29:01.:29:04.

different path. We will not know where we're going to be by the time

:29:05.:29:07.

we get to Brexit, never mind the transition. Adam Tomkins? I just

:29:08.:29:15.

want to come back on something she said. She said twice that the Prime

:29:16.:29:19.

Minister was standing in the way of the majority of Scottish opinion.

:29:20.:29:22.

She is not, the Prime Minister is standing up for the majority of

:29:23.:29:26.

Scottish opinion. There is a clear majority in Scottish opinion against

:29:27.:29:29.

having a second independence referendum. And that's what the

:29:30.:29:33.

Prime Minister is standing up for. The government which is standing in

:29:34.:29:36.

the way of Scottish majority opinion at the moment is the SNP government

:29:37.:29:39.

which Fiona Hyslop represents. And on the business of the relationship

:29:40.:29:45.

that Scotland, an independent Scotland might have with the

:29:46.:29:48.

European Union, what is your take on that? Alex Salmond, the former

:29:49.:29:56.

leader of the SNP, said I think only this morning, and he's the foreign

:29:57.:30:00.

affairs spokesman for the SNP, that an independent Scotland would not be

:30:01.:30:02.

seeking full membership of the European Union, so he has been

:30:03.:30:07.

perfectly clear since the morning of the 24th of June within hours of the

:30:08.:30:13.

EU referendum result becoming clear, that this is a First Minister,

:30:14.:30:16.

Nicola Sturgeon, who is using Brexit as a proxy for a second independence

:30:17.:30:24.

referendum. On that, if we are already out of the European Union at

:30:25.:30:28.

the point when you hold another independence referendum, if that

:30:29.:30:32.

goes ahead, what then? Well, Adam Tomkins is clearly wrong about the

:30:33.:30:38.

proposals that he is putting forward. Didn't Alex Salmond say

:30:39.:30:43.

that? No, he didn't. He didn't say that. In terms of where we'll be,

:30:44.:30:48.

this is why, changes happening... Do you accept that the starting point

:30:49.:30:52.

might be that Scotland is already out of the European Union? Well, if

:30:53.:30:55.

we do nothing and just sit back and sit on our hands and let Scotland

:30:56.:31:00.

adrift for the next two years, we will definitely be out of the

:31:01.:31:03.

European Union. What we're proposing in terms of the referendum is an

:31:04.:31:07.

opportunity to make sure that Scotland can have a different path

:31:08.:31:09.

and a different type of relationship. Which might not be at

:31:10.:31:16.

the start, full EU membership? Talking to other European countries,

:31:17.:31:18.

they perfectly understand the situation we find ourselves in. Now,

:31:19.:31:25.

they all absolutely understand that we have to have the right to choose,

:31:26.:31:30.

because of what has happened. Am not asking about that. I'm asking if you

:31:31.:31:36.

accept that it is possible that if there is another independence

:31:37.:31:39.

referendum, that the UK including Scotland will already be out as a

:31:40.:31:43.

starting point? We won't know until that time. You accept it as a

:31:44.:31:47.

possibility but when we won't know until at least we have the Brexit

:31:48.:31:51.

terms of reference, which should be known... What is the latest point

:31:52.:31:58.

that you could have an independence referendum that would allow Scotland

:31:59.:32:03.

to stay in the European Union? The window we have, that has been set

:32:04.:32:07.

out by the First Minister, iss 2018, which Theresa May at Lancaster House

:32:08.:32:11.

said would be the time that we thought we would have the Brexit

:32:12.:32:13.

said would be the time that we terms of reference. As confirmed by

:32:14.:32:16.

David Davis. And more importantly, Michel Barnier, the European lead

:32:17.:32:22.

negotiator, has also said that. Every other country by the way we'll

:32:23.:32:26.

get to decide weather this is a good deal or bad deal, apart from

:32:27.:32:29.

Scotland. So we have a window between the automata in the 18 and

:32:30.:32:33.

the spring of 2019. According to Theresa May's own timetable, that is

:32:34.:32:40.

the point that the UK will be out. So if it is after spring 2019, after

:32:41.:32:46.

the end of May... That is the risk that we have, if we do nothing and

:32:47.:32:51.

drift along for three years, Scotland's future will be decided

:32:52.:32:57.

for us by a Conservative hard Brexiteer government, which actually

:32:58.:33:00.

only has one MP out of 59 in Scotland. A few more thoughts from

:33:01.:33:05.

our audience. Then we need to move on.

:33:06.:33:16.

Could we not wait about 20 or 30 years to see the consequences

:33:17.:33:21.

Could we not wait about 20 or 30 Brexit? And the gentleman in the

:33:22.:33:27.

front row. I'm sick of hearing that Scotland voted to stay in. Fiona

:33:28.:33:36.

Hyslop said there, 62% said it. The vote was not a Scottish vote, it was

:33:37.:33:41.

a United Kingdom vote, and the majority of people in Scotland voted

:33:42.:33:46.

in 2014 to stay in the United Kingdom. The only reason is a

:33:47.:33:50.

logistic thing, if they counted all the votes in London or in Belfast in

:33:51.:34:04.

one place, they would not have known and they would not have voted in the

:34:05.:34:09.

same way. You just mentioned democracy three times. Let her

:34:10.:34:16.

respond to the point. Think that's why, it is not just Scotland which

:34:17.:34:18.

respond to the point. Think that's has concerns as to why there has

:34:19.:34:22.

been so little engagement from the United Kingdom government over the

:34:23.:34:24.

been so little engagement from the last nine months. The Welsh also are

:34:25.:34:27.

making that point, and they voted to leave. So there were different

:34:28.:34:33.

views. You have had your say, thank you very much. The gentleman,

:34:34.:34:40.

waiting for 20 or 30 years, I know a life expecting the is good, but I'm

:34:41.:34:44.

not sure you and I will be around to see that! One quick follow-up with

:34:45.:34:48.

you, Adam Tomkins, it is reported that the Prime Minister is putting

:34:49.:34:52.

the United Kingdom before she triggers Article 50 - should she

:34:53.:34:59.

come to Scotland and sit down with the First Minister and try and work

:35:00.:35:03.

this out? There is absolutely no reason why the Prime Minister and

:35:04.:35:05.

the First Minister should not meet and discuss a number of issues. I

:35:06.:35:09.

the First Minister should not meet want Scotland and that means

:35:10.:35:12.

including the Scottish Government to be at the heart of Brexit

:35:13.:35:15.

negotiations because I think it is important we get the right Brexit

:35:16.:35:16.

deal for the whole of the UK. I do not want his second

:35:17.:35:40.

independence referendum at all. I think the SNP should be held to the

:35:41.:35:44.

commitment that it was a once in a generation referendum. I'm not going

:35:45.:35:49.

to get into the detail about the timetable. The question is the

:35:50.:35:54.

principle of the. That is the same as it was in 2012, which is that it

:35:55.:35:58.

would be unfair to ask the people of Scotland weather they wanted to be

:35:59.:36:01.

in an independent state weather they wanted to remain the United Kingdom

:36:02.:36:05.

while the United Kingdom's relationship with the rest of the

:36:06.:36:08.

United Kingdom is unclear, and while it is manifestly unclear at the

:36:09.:36:14.

moment what an independent Scotland's relationship with the

:36:15.:36:16.

European Union would be. We need to move on. We will leave detailed

:36:17.:36:22.

questions on the merits and otherwise of independence for a

:36:23.:36:26.

future debate. Another question now...

:36:27.:36:40.

What advantage do you think we would have on leaving the EU? You were on

:36:41.:36:48.

The Remain side, so how can you now argue for leave? I can do that

:36:49.:36:57.

because I'm a Democrat. I lost the EU referendum, I wanted the United

:36:58.:37:00.

Kingdom to remain in the European Union and most of my MSP colleagues

:37:01.:37:04.

in all parties wanted the United Kingdom to remain.

:37:05.:37:31.

In answer to your question, the first thing that the Prime Minister

:37:32.:37:39.

has said is that we want the freest access to the European single

:37:40.:37:41.

market. We want the greatest support trade deal.

:37:42.:37:59.

Membership of the European Union does not allow you to have your own

:38:00.:38:04.

arrangements with countries in the rest of the world. I believe, as I

:38:05.:38:10.

think Fiona does as well, and we all do, that Brexit entails both

:38:11.:38:14.

opportunities and risks. The task that lies ahead of us, whether we

:38:15.:38:18.

are nationalist or unionist, whatever side, is to try and pull

:38:19.:38:22.

together not to try to pull the country apart, to secure the best

:38:23.:38:25.

possible Brexit deal for the whole of the UK, including Scotland. That

:38:26.:38:29.

means maximise the opportunities and minimising the risk.

:38:30.:38:37.

One of the opportunity Brexit gives is to be able to negotiate

:38:38.:38:44.

free-trade agreements with the rest of the world, which you cannot do as

:38:45.:38:49.

a member of the European Union. White Ayew so pessimistic that the

:38:50.:38:55.

prospect of the UK, including Scotland? The single market we

:38:56.:39:05.

support of, that single market membership is so important for

:39:06.:39:11.

Scotland Conservatives. You saw the figures for Scottish food and drink

:39:12.:39:17.

in terms of a 22% increase just last year in the growth of exports. 70%

:39:18.:39:22.

of Scotland's food goes to Europe. In terms of continuing that

:39:23.:39:26.

relationship with the single market is vital. We will still sell to the

:39:27.:39:32.

EU whether we are in the single market or not? Every country in the

:39:33.:39:35.

well can have access to the single market, but they had to pay for it.

:39:36.:39:41.

The issue is how much and the number might be on the back of a bus, are

:39:42.:39:45.

called on the figures being banded about by the league campaign. There

:39:46.:39:50.

is a gentleman over here talking about the constitutional fight

:39:51.:39:54.

Theresa May might be having with the European Union. If she fights and

:39:55.:39:58.

treat them in terms of how she has treated us, she will not get a good

:39:59.:40:03.

deal. One of the issues we have got, if you listen to, as I have, to be

:40:04.:40:07.

European countries and their responses, they are clear, they

:40:08.:40:12.

don't think and want the UK to have a better deal in relation to the

:40:13.:40:19.

European market outside the European Union than everybody else. So it

:40:20.:40:23.

will be worse than the deal we have now. It is about jobs. Out of the

:40:24.:40:31.

single market, we will lose 5% of our GDP and we're not even out yet.

:40:32.:40:38.

Let me bring in some voices from the audience. We will come to the front

:40:39.:40:41.

row in a moment, but first of all the gentlemen at the back? Can I ask

:40:42.:40:47.

Fiona Hyslop why is it Right Brussels can dictate his Scotland

:40:48.:40:51.

should independence happen, who we can negotiate trade deals with

:40:52.:40:56.

globally? What is your position? We should be able to freely trade with

:40:57.:41:05.

who we wish, it is a UK referendum. Lady on the front row in the middle

:41:06.:41:11.

here. Fiona you highlight the growth of the food and drink industry in

:41:12.:41:16.

Scotland, I run the food business and I have started to export. But my

:41:17.:41:20.

business will fail with the rise of business rates set by the Scottish

:41:21.:41:24.

Parliament, so I will be able to export regardless. I think the whole

:41:25.:41:33.

Brexit thing is a sham. It was sold on a lie. And the whole thing is,

:41:34.:41:44.

the whole point is it is part of a Tory power grab for agriculture and

:41:45.:41:49.

fisheries in Scotland. You can shake your head all you want, there is a

:41:50.:41:55.

reason Theresa May is... V pick-up on this, I want to pick up on that

:41:56.:41:59.

issue. It was argued by the league campaign. I was in the remain

:42:00.:42:08.

campaign. I oppose the league campaign. Absolutely, but you are

:42:09.:42:12.

supporting the United Kingdom leaving the European Union? I am

:42:13.:42:18.

supporting the democratic verdict of the United Kingdom in a lawful

:42:19.:42:19.

referendum. The question is, in the the United Kingdom in a lawful

:42:20.:42:26.

leave campaign they said if the UK left the European Union, the

:42:27.:42:28.

Scottish Parliament would become much more powerful, taking control

:42:29.:42:34.

of agriculture, fisheries and other areas. Will it happen? Yes, it is an

:42:35.:42:41.

inevitable consequence of Brexit. It is an inevitable consequence of

:42:42.:42:47.

Brexit. The Scottish Parliament will become even more powerful than it

:42:48.:42:57.

is. Some of the powers will be repatriated to the United Kingdom

:42:58.:43:03.

from Brussels and vented the default administrations and not centralised

:43:04.:43:10.

in Westminster. Since the Scottish Parliament was reconvened in 1999,

:43:11.:43:20.

agriculture... We have legislation in Scotland. Are you saying when

:43:21.:43:23.

those powers come back from Brussels, they will go directly to

:43:24.:43:28.

the Scottish Parliament? Can you tell me now the Westminster

:43:29.:43:33.

government will never legislate on agriculture and fisheries? Can you

:43:34.:43:36.

tell me they will never legislate? What I can say, a number of the

:43:37.:43:42.

powers coming back from Brussels will come to Holyrood. But you don't

:43:43.:43:48.

want any of these powers to be exercised by Holyrood, you want them

:43:49.:43:55.

to stay in Brussels. We have a UK Government deciding and debating the

:43:56.:43:59.

Scotland whether it comes to agriculture fisheries. Fisheries was

:44:00.:44:03.

described as expendable by the UK in negotiations. You are talking about

:44:04.:44:11.

the 70s. Some of the grievances are more recent. The idea of the UK

:44:12.:44:16.

Government will go into Brexit negotiations and they only started

:44:17.:44:20.

when the letter goes in next Wednesday. They haven't even

:44:21.:44:24.

started. My concern will be what will be UK Government be able to

:44:25.:44:27.

sacrifice to get the deal would be other EU countries that don't want

:44:28.:44:32.

them to get a better deal than they currently have? That is the worry we

:44:33.:44:36.

have for devolved competencies we have already and we have to protect

:44:37.:44:39.

them. We need to be part of the process. When powers are re-pre- --

:44:40.:45:02.

repatriated to the UK that a number of those powers will come to us as

:45:03.:45:06.

MSPs in Holyrood and come to the Scottish Government. Some of them

:45:07.:45:13.

will be retained at the UK level. There are number of things that are

:45:14.:45:18.

currently reserved under the Scotland act. What is devolves will

:45:19.:45:26.

come to us and what is reserved will go to Westminster. The common

:45:27.:45:33.

agricultural policy... Will there be a UK replacement for it? What it

:45:34.:45:38.

agricultural policy... Will there be does is it deals with agricultural

:45:39.:45:46.

holdings, or so products safety, consumer protection, labelling, a

:45:47.:45:51.

range of issues. Some of them under the Scotland act are reserved to

:45:52.:45:54.

Westminster and some of them are devolved. There will be no repeat

:45:55.:46:03.

reservation from powers from Holyrood to Westminster. No powers

:46:04.:46:06.

will be taken away from the Scottish Parliament as a result of Brexit and

:46:07.:46:11.

it is an inevitable consequence of Brexit that the Scottish Parliament

:46:12.:46:14.

will become even more powerful than it currently is. Let me go to

:46:15.:46:22.

another question from Dean Brown. What impact will Brexit have on

:46:23.:46:29.

European Union nationals working in the UK? We currently have 181,000 EU

:46:30.:46:37.

nationals living and working in Scotland and it is not just the jobs

:46:38.:46:41.

they provide, it is the support that they have the Scottish businesses

:46:42.:46:45.

that depend on EU nationals working there. If there is no guarantee,

:46:46.:46:50.

which there is not as of now, as of Monday the Westminster government

:46:51.:46:56.

and the Conservative government chose to vote against giving EU

:46:57.:47:01.

nationals, who are human beings in our society, any guarantees at all.

:47:02.:47:06.

How can they do that when they don't have similar guarantees the UK

:47:07.:47:09.

nationals in EU countries? One of the things I think we agree in the

:47:10.:47:17.

negotiation, if you are negotiating with 27 other countries, having a

:47:18.:47:21.

bit of decency and respect for their nationals is the starting point. We

:47:22.:47:26.

cannot have them used as bargaining chips. If she thinks that is to our

:47:27.:47:35.

advantage, she is mistaken. More importantly, that is not the kind of

:47:36.:47:38.

country I want to be part of, treating people in this inhumane

:47:39.:47:44.

way. We told it will be one of them first areas to be dealt with once

:47:45.:47:47.

discussions get under way, but was it a mistake for the Prime Minister

:47:48.:47:53.

not to say, those here now will be entitled to say? What she has

:47:54.:47:56.

clearly said is that she wants to be able to make that guarantee is as

:47:57.:48:00.

soon as possible in the process of negotiations but it is not

:48:01.:48:03.

appropriate until the guarantee is reciprocated by the EU with regard

:48:04.:48:08.

to the 2 million British people living elsewhere. Fiona and I

:48:09.:48:16.

disagree profoundly about all sorts of things in politics but we don't

:48:17.:48:20.

disagree much on this question. My view is clearly and a few of my

:48:21.:48:25.

party is clearly that immigration enriches our nation in Scotland, not

:48:26.:48:29.

only in terms of the labour market but in terms of culture, the area

:48:30.:48:34.

that Fyona is responsible for in the Scottish Government, my wife is an

:48:35.:48:39.

immigrant, my agent in the election campaign last year was an immigrant,

:48:40.:48:45.

many of the students I have taught, I taught European law in the

:48:46.:48:48.

University of Glasgow and elsewhere, many of them and indeed many of my

:48:49.:48:52.

colleagues on campus were from Europe and elsewhere. I want the

:48:53.:48:57.

Prime Minister to be able to make that guarantee as soon as she

:48:58.:49:01.

possibly can but we can't do it unilaterally, it has to be

:49:02.:49:08.

reciprocal. The hold-up is not in rotation hands, it is the EU who for

:49:09.:49:13.

reasons of their own are refusing to negotiate until Article 50 goes

:49:14.:49:20.

ahead. -- in our our own hands. That is the procedure, isn't it? It is

:49:21.:49:25.

unfortunate that the procedure has stopped those guarantees being

:49:26.:49:29.

given. It is not just about the EU nationals that they hear that we

:49:30.:49:33.

want to stay, it is future EU nationals that are so vital to our

:49:34.:49:37.

health service and universities, what happens to future EU nationals.

:49:38.:49:44.

Particularly if you are an EU national or you have personal

:49:45.:49:47.

experience of a family member or a relative in that position... The

:49:48.:49:53.

lady in the front row with the black and white top first of all. My

:49:54.:49:58.

husband is French and has lived here the 27 years, we have been married

:49:59.:50:09.

for eight years. I am British. He would have to go, I would want to

:50:10.:50:13.

go. We couldn't go to Europe. Where do you suggest we go? How do you

:50:14.:50:22.

feel about it? It is causing real problems health-wise because it is a

:50:23.:50:32.

big, big decision. We can't go to Europe because he is French, I am

:50:33.:50:38.

British. We could go to Cape Verde, cell our house. Nobody is saying you

:50:39.:50:45.

and your husband can't stay in the UK. What the Prime Minister is

:50:46.:50:47.

saying is that people like you husband and yourself, we want to be

:50:48.:50:53.

able to give the guarantee as soon as is. Then give the guarantee. It

:50:54.:50:59.

needs to be reciprocated, we have to million British people living

:51:00.:51:02.

elsewhere in the EU. The lady in the back row. If you wanted to give the

:51:03.:51:13.

guarantee, why don't you give it? As an EU citizen, to me that means you

:51:14.:51:18.

are still open to a scenario where that scenario is not given because

:51:19.:51:22.

of failure in negotiations, because of walking out without a deal, which

:51:23.:51:27.

is part of the narrative. What is your personal experience? I am

:51:28.:51:34.

Bulgarian. A lot of the narrative has been very negative, very

:51:35.:51:37.

distressing. I am a teacher at university, there are a lot of

:51:38.:51:42.

international students, a lot of worry, we have been called Barlow --

:51:43.:51:48.

bargaining chips, citizens of nowhere as part of the conference in

:51:49.:51:53.

the autumn. It is very traumatic. But your hand up if you are from an

:51:54.:52:02.

EU background. -- put your hand. In Italy there are over 100 British

:52:03.:52:06.

lecturers who have not received equal treatment despite six

:52:07.:52:10.

judgments of the European Court of Justice. I have had their salaries

:52:11.:52:15.

recently cut by 50% and they are denied access to judicial review.

:52:16.:52:20.

Mrs May is surely right in demanding a reciprocal agreement.

:52:21.:52:27.

Let's come back to our panel and Fiona Hyslop. This is a central part

:52:28.:52:34.

of the type of country we want to be, I think, our respect for EU

:52:35.:52:38.

nationals etc. There is also an economic factor. If you want to be

:52:39.:52:42.

the best at innovation and research, we rely on our universitiesmm

:52:43.:52:48.

already be seeing the concerns that they have regarding collaborative

:52:49.:52:50.

contracts internationally. They might not be getting the same

:52:51.:52:55.

research contracts. The director of the Edinburgh international festival

:52:56.:52:57.

is Irish and has expressed his concerns only this week in a

:52:58.:53:01.

newspaper article. It is also about the jobs here. There are many

:53:02.:53:06.

companies that are out with the EU that have based themselves in

:53:07.:53:09.

Scotland precisely because we have access and are members of the single

:53:10.:53:13.

market. So what do you think is going to happen, they won't be

:53:14.:53:17.

allowed to stay? I was about to come onto the second part, EU nationals

:53:18.:53:21.

want to come? Will they want to become and be part of our country? I

:53:22.:53:27.

would want them to be. We are not sending out the right signal

:53:28.:53:29.

whatsoever. Never mind the disadvantages in two years' time,

:53:30.:53:33.

when the UK leaves. It is already having a negative impact on

:53:34.:53:39.

Scotland. We want to be one of the world's beacons for free-trade, and

:53:40.:53:43.

that includes trade in goods and services on campus and in cultural

:53:44.:53:48.

things. If those are the signals that you're sending out, there is no

:53:49.:53:52.

reason at all to believe, unless you just want to do Britain damn, that

:53:53.:53:56.

Britain will be anything other than a welcoming place for migrants,

:53:57.:54:01.

wherever you come from. It does not feel so just now. There is no need

:54:02.:54:06.

for this to be a difficult point of the negotiations. There will be some

:54:07.:54:09.

really difficult things to negotiate but this does not need to be one of

:54:10.:54:13.

them. We are into the final minute or so. I wanted to ask you a quick

:54:14.:54:20.

follow-up, Leave campaign, Michael Gove, who you supported for the

:54:21.:54:22.

leadership of the Conservative Party, he also said that post-wrecks

:54:23.:54:30.

act, Holyrood could have some say over immigration - will that happen?

:54:31.:54:35.

I don't know whether that will happen or not. -- post-Brexit. But

:54:36.:54:38.

what absolutely will happen is that the powers and shape and structure

:54:39.:54:41.

what absolutely will happen is that of the Holyrood parliament will grow

:54:42.:54:45.

as a result of Brexit. There will be powers repatriated from Brussels

:54:46.:54:48.

which will come to Edinburgh and Holyrood. That is a given. Fiona

:54:49.:54:52.

Hyslop, isn't it the case that the UK would be better placed to get the

:54:53.:54:58.

best possible deal if people like you and the Scottish Government and

:54:59.:55:01.

the other devolved administrations were working with the UK Government

:55:02.:55:04.

and being part of the same team? Absolutely. Well, we have been and

:55:05.:55:09.

we have been attending the joint ministerial committees. We expect

:55:10.:55:12.

and we must be part of negotiations going forward. To many of our

:55:13.:55:15.

industries depend on the European market and we need to make sure that

:55:16.:55:19.

we are part of that trainer and I expect support from the

:55:20.:55:23.

Conservatives in Scotland to remain as part of that negotiating

:55:24.:55:33.

mechanism. Thank you both very much indeed. We're going to have to leave

:55:34.:55:36.

it there. I would have loved to get more audience members in, but we are

:55:37.:55:41.

at the end of our time. Let me thank those of you who are in the

:55:42.:55:44.

audience, especially for those who asked questions. My thanks to Brexit

:55:45.:55:47.

from the Scottish Government and Adam Tom kins from the Scottish

:55:48.:55:51.

Conservative Party. And of course, thanks to you for following our

:55:52.:55:52.

debate. Let's return to our political

:55:53.:56:03.

editor Brian Taylor, There is a phrase in politics,

:56:04.:56:15.

parity of esteem. Tonight, we saw parity of uncertainty. I

:56:16.:56:20.

characterised the referendum 2014 is one of doubt and reassurance, doubts

:56:21.:56:26.

from the pro-European side, leaving it to the others to offer

:56:27.:56:30.

reassurance. This time it strikes me there is bounty of uncertainty,

:56:31.:56:33.

there is doubt all around us to what Brexit means. Doubts offered by

:56:34.:56:38.

those supporting the union, as to when any referendum might take

:56:39.:56:41.

place, the terms of Scotland's potential membership of the European

:56:42.:56:45.

Union, doubt upon doubt upon doubt. In those circumstances, you get the

:56:46.:56:49.

Prime Minister saying, there is already doubt and uncertainty as a

:56:50.:56:52.

consequence of Brexit, better to leave alone until that is resolved.

:56:53.:56:59.

You get Nicola Sturgeon offering exactly the counterpoint, saying

:57:00.:57:02.

there is doubt and uncertainty, and that independence would help resolve

:57:03.:57:04.

that. So you have competing solutions being offered.

:57:05.:57:09.

that. So you have competing briefly, tomorrow, MSPs back at

:57:10.:57:12.

Holyrood for that vote? Yes, second day of debate. The greens will vote

:57:13.:57:17.

with the SNP come there will be a majority. They will demand that

:57:18.:57:20.

referendum, the transfer of those powers from the Prime Minister. The

:57:21.:57:29.

Prime Minister will say no. Let's have a look at the weather. Good

:57:30.:57:33.

evening. Some fairly disruptive wintry weather around this morning,

:57:34.:57:37.

but equally, some rather pretty pictures coming in from our Weather

:57:38.:57:40.

Watchers. Not so pretty if you are stuck in it, though. Through the

:57:41.:57:44.

afternoon, the showers gave way to some sunshine. Some of them did hold

:57:45.:57:49.

on across the far north. Tonight, cold and frosty, but that's not the

:57:50.:57:52.

whole story. Low pressure pushing in across parts of England, which could

:57:53.:57:56.

cause some issues across southern Scotland tomorrow. And this. In the

:57:57.:58:01.

far north giving wet weather overnight. In between, largely dry,

:58:02.:58:08.

hold, frosty, icy. Across parts of northern Aberdeenshire, across the

:58:09.:58:13.

Northern Isles, wintry showers continuing. Elsewhere, largely dry

:58:14.:58:17.

but it will be cold of temperatures in the countryside down to -6.

:58:18.:58:25.

Tomorrow morning, in the south, that low pressure just getting into parts

:58:26.:58:34.

of Dumfriesshire. From the central lowlands northwards, it's largely

:58:35.:58:37.

dry with any showers tending to fade away. Across the south, by

:58:38.:58:43.

mid-afternoon, still fairly cloudy. Still one or two wintry showers over

:58:44.:58:49.

the host of and quite cold. On the north-easterly, that will feel quite

:58:50.:58:53.

bitter. Up to Perthshire, some showers a easing away after being

:58:54.:58:59.

quite heavily during the course of the morning of heading through the

:59:00.:59:04.

rest of the afternoon into the evening, we start to see a change.

:59:05.:59:10.

The wet weather tends to clear away. This is Thursday, largely dry and

:59:11.:59:14.

fine and bright, with some sunshine. Still a few shows perhaps, though,

:59:15.:59:19.

for Shetland. And this is why we are having the change. A big area of

:59:20.:59:23.

high pressure from the Azores spreading all the way up to us here

:59:24.:59:35.

in Scotland. That's Reporting Scotland. I will be live from

:59:36.:59:39.

Holyrood tomorrow night for analysis of that Scottish vote on the

:59:40.:59:43.

independence referendum. Join me for that if you can. Good evening.

:59:44.:59:50.

The 24-year-old man has been charged with murder.

:59:51.:59:52.

You made sure an innocent man is charged!

:59:53.:59:55.

Jackie Bird and Glenn Campbell are joined by a panel of leading politicians and a studio audience for a live debate looking at the impact of Brexit on Scotland and the options for Scotland's future.


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