21/03/2017 Reporting Scotland

Heated exchanges in the Scottish Parliament as MSPs debate

whether there should be a second independence referendum.

For the UK Government to stand in the way of Scotland even having a

choice would be, in my view, wrong, unfair and utterly unsustainable.

Most people in Scotland are sick to death of The Games. Most people in

Scotland don't want another referendum any time soon.

Nicola Sturgeon wants another vote by Spring 2019,

the Prime Minister says that's too soon.

Join me for a special debate as an audience of viewers put their

questions on independence and Brexit to Fiona Hyslop from the SNP and

Adam Tomkins from the Scottish Conservatives. Also tonight...

A medical tribunal hears about the chaos at Heathrow Airport

as ebola nurse Pauline Cafferkey returned from Sierra Leone.

And keeping it in the family - how a married couple

from the Borders have made military history.

Nicola Sturgeon has accused the Prime Minister of acting

as a "road block" preventing Scotland from having a real choice

But the First Minister's critics said she would use

anything as "an excuse" to promote independence.

The exchanges came during the first day of debate over a demand

for Theresa May to concede a second referendum on Scotland's future.

This from our political editor Brian Taylor.

It is about time, timing, complex, political interplay. Theresa May is

about to signal the start Britain's withdrawal from the European Union.

That should take two years. She doesn't want to contemplate a

Scottish referendum during that period. But that strikes Nicola

Sturgeon as unfair. She says Scotland should be given a choice

before or just as Britain leaves the European Union. Between autumn 2018

and spring the year after. Nicola Sturgeon said it weighed heavily

upon her to call a rougher random, which many didn't relish. But she

blamed the Prime Minister for refusing to compromise on continuing

Scottish links with the EU. It will simply not be acceptable for the UK

Government to stand as a roadblock to the democratically expressed will

of this Parliament. For the UK Government to stand in the wake of

Scotland even having a choice, would be, in my view, wrong, unfair and

utterly unsustainable. But union supporters harked back to the

Edinburgh agreement which paved the way for the independence referendum

in 2014. They said the SNP had broken its pledge to respect the

outcome and a rerun was wrong. Most people in Scotland are sick to death

of The Games. Most people in Scotland don't want another

referendum any time soon, three years after the last one and most

people in Scotland see the common-sense in our own position.

Which is a second independence referendum shouldn't even be

contemplated until Brexit is resolved. Labour's leader said she

hated Tory rule, but... They want to replace Tory austerity with

turbo-charged austerity. Because the truth of the matter is, separation

would mean ?15 billion worth of cuts. Willie Rennie said those

against the referendum had faced a torrent of abuse from Independent

supporters. A second referendum would only make that worse. It will

be defied amylase, it will divide him Billy Maka communities and

divide communities. That is what happened last time. It is nice to be

given such a warm welcome. Ironic groans greeted Patrick Harvie.

Critics said the Greens have ruled out a referendum unless there was

public demand, but Mr Harvey brushed that aside. It is, Presiding

Officer, absurd to suggest we should not respond to and react to the

situation and the fundamentally changed circumstances we find

ourselves in. Outside Parliament, the attendant media, observing,

scrutinising. There is sound, there is light and tomorrow, there is a

vote on whether Holyrood demands another independence referendum.

Did we learn anything new in the debate?

One of the arguments were familiar, but we saw displayed again, the very

fact there is vehement discourse over independence on occasion.

Actually today, it was vitriolic. We saw the entrenched positions of the

various parties. But one thing differs, in 2014 he was accepted

there was to be referendum and the discourse was the nature of

independence on offer. This time it is not accepted there should be a

referendum. Those supporting the union say it is unwanted and

unwelcome. The First Minister says there will be instability in the UK

constitution and the question is whether joins in a choice with

regards to that change. Do you think the argument we are hearing at

Holyrood today and tomorrow, will influence Westminster in any way? I

don't see that happening. And the Conservative leader described this

debate as Groundhog Day. When she and David Blondel stood up on

Thursday responding to the primers's remarked that she would not

contemplate another referendum at this point, David Blondel said doing

it ahead of the debate was to leave the SNP in no doubt before they cast

the vote. And that vote will be tomorrow evening here at Holyrood.

Thank you very much. Meanwhile, it's understood MPs have

put off a final decision on whether the issue of a future

referendum on Scottish independence should get a further

airing at Westminster. An e-petition calling for a ban

on it has attracted more The Commons Petitions Committee

today considered whether a debate should be held by MPs

on the subject, but failed The expectation is that it will be

debated, but it may be linked to a counter petition in favour

of a second independence referendum. The First Minister has paid tribute

to Martin McGuinness, the former deputy First Minister

of Northern Ireland who died today. Nicola Sturgeon says

without his "hard and brave work" to bridge the divide,

peace would not have been achieved. Ms Sturgeon got to know

Mr McGuinness through their work She said he was optimistic

about the future but also understood the "fragility"

of the peace process. The death of Martin McGuinness has

brought intense reflection both on his role as former IRA commander

and as one of the architects of Tonight, while he received praise

from a former Scottish MP who served at the Northern Ireland Office,

the family of a soldier murdered by the IRA said they hoped

Martin McGuinness would be remembered as a terrorist

and not a statesman. Killed by the IRA in March 19 71.

He'd only been in the province a few weeks. It was a honey trap, longer

two other Scottish soldiers, teenagers John and Joseph McCague,

you was Lord to a remote spot and shot dead. It was a pivotal moment

and shattered their families. His cousin David was just three at the

time. No one has been convicted of the murders and an inquest returned

an open verdict. But David said the scar on his family has never healed.

He is convinced that as an IRA commander at the time, Martin

McGuinness must have known who was responsible. Martin McGuinness

played a part in the republican movement along with Gerry Adams. If

anything happened on the streets, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness

knew about it. Today, some of those who worked with Martin McGuinness

during the peace process say he played a crucial role in forging the

Good Friday agreement. There was a good Martin McGuinness and a bad

Martin McGuinness. He fought the bad fighter but then went on to fight

the good fight. Because of that we have the situation in Northern

Ireland today which is unparalleled. There is a peace process there and

he is a big feature of that. 46 years on, still campaigning for a

public enquiry into the deaths of the soldiers, David says he remains

convinced that Martin McGuinness went to his grave with secrets.

People will look on him as a statesman, other people will look

upon him as a terrorist. A doctor has told a tribunal

about the awful conditions that medical staff had to work

in during an Ebola outbreak The hearing is investigating

the circumstances surrounding Scottish nurse Pauline Cafferkey's

return to the UK. But this disciplinary medical

correspondent, Dominic Hughes. But this disciplinary medical

tribunal in Manchester heard today from Doctor Sharon Irvine, along

with Doctor Hannah Ryan and Pauline Cafferkey were part of NHS

volunteers who travelled out to Sierra Leone in 2014 at the height

of the Ebola clinic. She told the tribunal of the horrendous

conditions. 40 degrees heat, wearing top to toe protective clothing with

goggles and masks. It was extremely hot and they had to wear compares in

case one of them fainted and all the time surrounded by people who were

dying from Ebola. So not surprisingly at the end of their

stint, they were keen to be reunited with friends and family back at the

UK. When they arrived at Heathrow Airport they were confronted by a

screening Centre. That was described as chaotic, it was crowded, it was

noisy. She went through that screening process but when she was

in the arrivals hall, she was approached by Dr Hannah Ryan who

said there was a problem with Pauline Cafferkey's temperature.

Says she said immediately, we have got to contact Public Health England

and get her back into screening. We do know Pauline Cafferkey had gone

back into screening but had taken paracetamol, head temperature had

back into screening but had taken come down a bit so she was allowed

to get on the flight to Glasgow. The next day she collapsed and was

diagnosed with Ebola. The tribunal also heard from nurse Donna would he

was with Pauline Cafferkey and Dr Ryan when Dr Ryan the Pauline

Cafferkey's temperature and Dr Ryan's QC suggested it was nurse

Donna Ward who wrote the wrong temperature down on the format they

had to fill in, but she denies that. Hannah Ryan has admitted she knew

Pauline Cafferkey had a higher temperature and she went along with

writing down the lower temperature on the form. She failed to tell

Public Health England staff there was a problem with the temperature

and then she failed to be entirely straight, initially at least, with a

public-health enquiry after the event. She says her actions don't

amount to misconduct. Moves are under way to extradite

a retired priest from Canada to Scotland in connection

with child abuse claims. The Crown Office has been granted

a petition warrant for the arrest of Father Robert MacKenzie,

who lives in Saskatchewan. The 84 year-old taught

at the former Fort Augustus Abbey School before moving

to Canada in 1988. Papers are now being prepared

in the Crown Office to submit an extradition request

to the Canadian authorities. A plumber is to face trial accused

of causing a gas explosion in 2013, which saw this home's owners buried

in the rubble. Craig Hall is alleged to have failed

to properly install a boiler at Robin and Marion Cunningham's

house in Callander. A married couple from the Borders

are making military history. Lieutenant Colonel Gill Wilkinson

is passing command of her regiment Meet Mr and Mrs Allen and Gill

Wilkinson. They are all so both Lieutenant Colonel Wilkinson and one

has just taken the job from the other. Alan is in charge of Gill's

old regiment, making them the highest ranking couple to follow

each other in a command role. When a commanding officer leaves the

command, they don't look back at the regiment, they leave the next seal

to carry on. Although I am trying to do that, I can ask how people are

getting on and satisfied that parental bed. We work in a court

where men and women do equal jobs. It is unusual to have the husband

taking over from the wife or the other way around. There will always

be good banter. You have almost finished the course? Alan is

settling well into his white's old job while she is taking another

position in the reserves. They say this unusual handover shows how

opportunities for women in the Army are changing. Since I joined,

opportunities are increasing. Women are moving into combat roles. Does

Gill have any advice for her husband? She is always giving me

valuable advice. So yes, some is good, some I listen to and I do make

my own assessment. Both Lieutenant Colonel Wilkinson resists the

temptation to talk shop at home. Scotland's third most-capped rugby

player is to bring an end to his 17-year career at the end

of the season. Sean Lamont, seen here scoring

against Italy, amassed 105 The 36 year-old also helped

Glasgow Warriors to their first ever I'll be back later, but now

we to cross to my colleague Glenn Campbell for a special

Brexit debate. The Prime Minister Theresa May is

going to start the two-year process to take the UK out of the EU next

Wednesday. Tomorrow, a majority of MSPs are expected to back Nicola

Sturgeon in her call for the power to hold a second referendum on

Scottish independence, towards the end of the Brexit negotiations.

Plenty to talk about then. Debating before this live audience, two MSPs

with different views on Brexit and independence. We have the Scottish

Conservatives, Adam Tomkins who is a professor of constitutional law. And

the Cabinet Secretary for external furs, Fiona Hyslop from the SNP.

APPLAUSE They will be taking questions both

from me and from our audience, which includes members from both sides in

the independence debate, and some who are undecided. Let's go straight

to our first question, which comes from Janet... Should Theresa May be

allowed to delay the Scottish referendum because of Brexit? Should

she be allowed, Fiona Hyslop, to delay beyond the point of the

conclusion of the Brexit negotiations? The answer to that is

no. What we do agree with Theresa May on is, what we suggesting is, we

have a referendum at the point when we know what the terms of the Brexit

deal are. It should not be now. So we agree on that. That would allow

the Scottish people to have the choice on what they want. Brexit has

changed everything, and we need to make sure that Scotland is in the

best position to make sure that we can take advantage of the things

that are important to Scotland in terms of the type of country we want

to have, in terms of the economy, and what is in the best interests of

the economy. Also from a democracy point of view, it is really

important that it is the people of Scotland who have the choice, airing

in mind that 62% of people voted to remain. I know there's mixed

feelings. Some people may have changed their minds, but the choice

has two lies not with the politicians or the First Minister,

it really has to live with the people of Scotland at that time.

That would be 18 months to two years away, when the content of the Brexit

deal is available. And at that point, the choice should be with the

people of Scotland. The timetable the First Minister has suggested is

between the autumn of next year and the spring of 2019, surely we should

know the broad details of our exit deal from the EU by then, what is

wrong with that timescale? The question of the timing is really

extremely important. I think it is important that we understand how

this was done, with the independence referendum in 2014. It was done by

both the Westminster government and the Scottish Government agreeing a

timescale so the Section 30 order which was passed in Westminster

which gave the Scottish Parliament the power, legally come to hold that

decisive referendum in 2014, had to be held within a certain window of

time within a period which was agreed by the United Kingdom

government and the Scottish Government acting together. What

happened last week could hardly be more different from that process.

Because what happened last week was the First Minister of Scotland

announcing some kind of unilateral demand that there had to be a second

independence referendum, notwithstanding the fact that the

SNP had said it was a once in a generation event, there had to be a

second referendum within a certain period of time, between the end of

2018 and the beginning of 2019. I think Theresa May, as Prime Minister

of the whole of the United Kingdom, is absolutely right to say that now

is not the time to ask this question again. But what about towards the

end of the Brexit negotiations, which is what the First Minister is

for, can she sit down with the Prime Minister and come to an agreement

between we have to understand this from a position of principal. I go

back to the principles which were laid down in the Edinburgh

agreement, signed by Nicola Sturgeon, as do pity First Minister,

as well as by David Cameron and others from both governments. That

agreement said that an independence referendum was to be clear, fair,

legal and precise. It just wouldn't be fair to ask the people of

Scotland to decide on the independence question while there is

no clarity around either what the United Kingdom's relationship with

the European Union is going to be, or indeed Scotland's relationship

would be, either. Contact there will be more clarity around the Brexit

deal by the time we get to 2018, and there will be serious concerns about

the management of the whole Brexit process. Remember, it is about

democracy. Let me bring in some members of the audience. Starting in

the back row. European citizens were allowed to vote in the independence

referendum in 2014. According to the timescale suggested by Theresa May,

it will be very likely that we will not have a voice in another

referendum if it happens after Brexit. You would want EU citizens

to have that voice? I would like to have a voice. Presumably you are

anticipating that there will be a demand for another referendum, on

the basis of that question. The gentleman here. Is it not

unreasonable to ask the Prime gentleman here. Is it not

Minister to fight a constitutional issue in the UK simultaneously with

the EU? Is it not a distraction from the objectives of the Brexit

negotiations? Perhaps we will pick up on that. The lady in the front.

Brexit means the entirety of the UK is leaving the EU. There's no

guarantee that the EU will then allow Scotland to debate for itself

a package to remain within the EU whilst we are still part of the UK.

I think it is not necessarily true to suggest that the two could happen

at once, in such a timescale. So you're not against another

independence referendum, but it should happen after the UK has left?

I am massively against another referendum, not at all. But I think

the SNP is really misleading Scotland on what we are actually

capable of negotiating with the EU. Lady next to you is shaking her

head. Given the fact that the political landscape has changed,

there is no question that Scotland voted to remain in the EU. So Brexit

actually forces an undemocratic action on a democratic people. We

have a clear mandate to have a second referendum, which was in the

manifesto, that should circumstances change, we have the right to have a

second referendum on independence. Let's pick up that point. There was

a reference to this in the SNP manifesto, but as we mentioned in

the introduction, Adam Tomkins, by this time tomorrow, the Scottish

Parliament, by majority, will probably have urged the First

Minister to seek power from the UK Government to have another

referendum. What does the Prime Minister tactic? Well, since the

last election of a Scottish Parliament in May of last year, the

SNP government have lost five different votes on five different

subjects in the Scottish Parliament. And they have ignored every single

one - on education, on health, on enterprise boards, on energy. So if

the Scottish Government can ignore the verdicts of the Scottish

Parliament, when the Scottish Parliament is supposed to be

accountable, what on earth is the grounds for saying that the vote

tomorrow on a non-binding motion should somehow bind the hand of the

United Kingdom's Prime Minister when the United Kingdom's Prime Minister

is about to embark on what will be the most complex and difficult

negotiations of our political lifetime? Socially should stick to

her guns? I don't think the vote in the Scottish Parliament tomorrow

night will make any difference to the way in which the Prime Minister

has to carry on with her job as the Prime Minister of the United

Kingdom, and that job is to secure the best deal on leaving the

European Union for the whole of the United Kingdom, including for

Scotland. I agree that the noises around a second independence

referendum at this in a butcher in time are a distraction from what is

the most difficult and bishops and important set of negotiations that

the United Kingdom will be embarking upon in our lifetimes. The speaker,

we are not saying... Fiona Hyslop, why should the UK Prime Minister,

the UK Government, respect the will of the Scottish Parliament, when as

Adam Tomkins pointed out of the Scottish Government doesn't always

do that? We do, we go back to Parliament on all those votes that

he mentioned. A mandate in a manifesto clearly adds wait and is a

mandate to have a referendum in changed circumstances. It's not just

about the Scottish Government, it's also about the Scottish Parliament

and the will of the people of Scotland. In Scotland, the people of

Scotland are sovereign. I want to get back to the point the audience

were making about the Brexit negotiations. If we're going to be

held captive by a hard Brexit right-wing Conservative government

for two years, maybe more, just to see if it might work out all right,

that's a very dangerous position to be in. It's about democracy but it

is also about the people of Scotland having the choice. That to me is the

fundamental part of it. That's why the Scottish Parliament's vote

tomorrow is not just about Brexit or independence, it's about the right

of the Scottish people to exercise their sovereignty. Which we

exercised in 2014 and we said no. Changed circumstances. You are

determined that there should be another independence referendum on

that basis, but what if the Prime Minister says no, she's rejecting

the timetable, what will you do then? Theresa May has to respect the

sovereignty of the Scottish people. But if she says no, what is your

next move? We have been waiting patiently to have engagement on the

context of the Brexit has voted for by the United Kingdom. We have put

forward compromise proposals which would have had a situation where

Scotland could have remained as part of the single market. I understand

that, but if the position is that the Prime Minister is not prepared

to transfer the power, to have another referendum in the timescale

that the First Minister has set out, what you can do? We are now within

the eight days of the Article 50 letter which will take the UK out of

the European Union, and we have no content or detail about that. There

is fundamental constitutional change taking place. Is it an option for

you to have another referendum anyway, without the authority of

Westminster? Well, we want a referendum which is legal and

constitutional. We think we have got the authority for the Scottish

Parliament by a democratic vote tomorrow, that is the authority that

we would have. But can you have a referendum without that authority?

In the past, the Conservative Party has ignored the will of the people

In the past, the Conservative Party of Scotland, and we saw what

happened in the 1980s and 1990s. I think it would be otherwise... But

if she says no, do you still argue that it is an option but when we are

on a course of action which is to take the will of the people of

Scotland as democratic and exercised through the Scottish Parliament...

We are none the wiser. We are none the wiser of the content of the

Brexit letter which is going to to drag Scotland out of the EU against

our wishes, despite nine months of us trying to get some kind of

information regarding Scotland's interests as part of that. That is

the immediate issue facing interests as part of that. That is

Scotland's. The lady at the back. interests as part of that. That is

Fianna, if Scotland became an independent country, I would really

like to see changes in the NHS, especially mental health. And do you

see another independence referendum as an opportunity to change our

country, a positive opportunity? Yes. And here? I would like to put

the question, given the SNP's whole premise for this second referendum

would be to retain Scotland's position within the European Union,

the party itself is now rolling back from the position of suggesting that

the DEC or the FTA could be a alternative. So you're undermining

your own case. A country like Norway for instance is in the European free

trade Association, and through that, the European economy area, which

allows it to be in the single market but not in the union. I just want to

bring Fiona Hyslop in on that very point, are you watering down the

need for full EU membership? No, we're not. What we are proposing is

to have a system, as part of a compromises, by which Scotland could

remain as part of the single market, even if the rest of the UK left.

That is part of a compromises deal, what we wanted. Theresa May is not

engaging with that, so therefore so that we can pursue the interests on

the social and democratic and economic side, we now have to have

the choice to be able to make sure we can have some options for a

different path. We will not know where we're going to be by the time

we get to Brexit, never mind the transition. Adam Tomkins? I just

want to come back on something she said. She said twice that the Prime

Minister was standing in the way of the majority of Scottish opinion.

She is not, the Prime Minister is standing up for the majority of

Scottish opinion. There is a clear majority in Scottish opinion against

having a second independence referendum. And that's what the

Prime Minister is standing up for. The government which is standing in

the way of Scottish majority opinion at the moment is the SNP government

which Fiona Hyslop represents. And on the business of the relationship

that Scotland, an independent Scotland might have with the

European Union, what is your take on that? Alex Salmond, the former

leader of the SNP, said I think only this morning, and he's the foreign

affairs spokesman for the SNP, that an independent Scotland would not be

seeking full membership of the European Union, so he has been

perfectly clear since the morning of the 24th of June within hours of the

EU referendum result becoming clear, that this is a First Minister,

Nicola Sturgeon, who is using Brexit as a proxy for a second independence

referendum. On that, if we are already out of the European Union at

the point when you hold another independence referendum, if that

goes ahead, what then? Well, Adam Tomkins is clearly wrong about the

proposals that he is putting forward. Didn't Alex Salmond say

that? No, he didn't. He didn't say that. In terms of where we'll be,

this is why, changes happening... Do you accept that the starting point

might be that Scotland is already out of the European Union? Well, if

we do nothing and just sit back and sit on our hands and let Scotland

adrift for the next two years, we will definitely be out of the

European Union. What we're proposing in terms of the referendum is an

opportunity to make sure that Scotland can have a different path

and a different type of relationship. Which might not be at

the start, full EU membership? Talking to other European countries,

they perfectly understand the situation we find ourselves in. Now,

they all absolutely understand that we have to have the right to choose,

because of what has happened. Am not asking about that. I'm asking if you

accept that it is possible that if there is another independence

referendum, that the UK including Scotland will already be out as a

starting point? We won't know until that time. You accept it as a

possibility but when we won't know until at least we have the Brexit

terms of reference, which should be known... What is the latest point

that you could have an independence referendum that would allow Scotland

to stay in the European Union? The window we have, that has been set

out by the First Minister, iss 2018, which Theresa May at Lancaster House

said would be the time that we thought we would have the Brexit

said would be the time that we terms of reference. As confirmed by

David Davis. And more importantly, Michel Barnier, the European lead

negotiator, has also said that. Every other country by the way we'll

get to decide weather this is a good deal or bad deal, apart from

Scotland. So we have a window between the automata in the 18 and

the spring of 2019. According to Theresa May's own timetable, that is

the point that the UK will be out. So if it is after spring 2019, after

the end of May... That is the risk that we have, if we do nothing and

drift along for three years, Scotland's future will be decided

for us by a Conservative hard Brexiteer government, which actually

only has one MP out of 59 in Scotland. A few more thoughts from

our audience. Then we need to move on.

Could we not wait about 20 or 30 years to see the consequences

Could we not wait about 20 or 30 Brexit? And the gentleman in the

front row. I'm sick of hearing that Scotland voted to stay in. Fiona

Hyslop said there, 62% said it. The vote was not a Scottish vote, it was

a United Kingdom vote, and the majority of people in Scotland voted

in 2014 to stay in the United Kingdom. The only reason is a

logistic thing, if they counted all the votes in London or in Belfast in

one place, they would not have known and they would not have voted in the

same way. You just mentioned democracy three times. Let her

respond to the point. Think that's why, it is not just Scotland which

respond to the point. Think that's has concerns as to why there has

been so little engagement from the United Kingdom government over the

been so little engagement from the last nine months. The Welsh also are

making that point, and they voted to leave. So there were different

views. You have had your say, thank you very much. The gentleman,

waiting for 20 or 30 years, I know a life expecting the is good, but I'm

not sure you and I will be around to see that! One quick follow-up with

you, Adam Tomkins, it is reported that the Prime Minister is putting

the United Kingdom before she triggers Article 50 - should she

come to Scotland and sit down with the First Minister and try and work

this out? There is absolutely no reason why the Prime Minister and

the First Minister should not meet and discuss a number of issues. I

the First Minister should not meet want Scotland and that means

including the Scottish Government to be at the heart of Brexit

negotiations because I think it is important we get the right Brexit

deal for the whole of the UK. I do not want his second

independence referendum at all. I think the SNP should be held to the

commitment that it was a once in a generation referendum. I'm not going

to get into the detail about the timetable. The question is the

principle of the. That is the same as it was in 2012, which is that it

would be unfair to ask the people of Scotland weather they wanted to be

in an independent state weather they wanted to remain the United Kingdom

while the United Kingdom's relationship with the rest of the

United Kingdom is unclear, and while it is manifestly unclear at the

moment what an independent Scotland's relationship with the

European Union would be. We need to move on. We will leave detailed

questions on the merits and otherwise of independence for a

future debate. Another question now...

What advantage do you think we would have on leaving the EU? You were on

The Remain side, so how can you now argue for leave? I can do that

because I'm a Democrat. I lost the EU referendum, I wanted the United

Kingdom to remain in the European Union and most of my MSP colleagues

in all parties wanted the United Kingdom to remain.

In answer to your question, the first thing that the Prime Minister

has said is that we want the freest access to the European single

market. We want the greatest support trade deal.

Membership of the European Union does not allow you to have your own

arrangements with countries in the rest of the world. I believe, as I

think Fiona does as well, and we all do, that Brexit entails both

opportunities and risks. The task that lies ahead of us, whether we

are nationalist or unionist, whatever side, is to try and pull

together not to try to pull the country apart, to secure the best

possible Brexit deal for the whole of the UK, including Scotland. That

means maximise the opportunities and minimising the risk.

One of the opportunity Brexit gives is to be able to negotiate

free-trade agreements with the rest of the world, which you cannot do as

a member of the European Union. White Ayew so pessimistic that the

prospect of the UK, including Scotland? The single market we

support of, that single market membership is so important for

Scotland Conservatives. You saw the figures for Scottish food and drink

in terms of a 22% increase just last year in the growth of exports. 70%

of Scotland's food goes to Europe. In terms of continuing that

relationship with the single market is vital. We will still sell to the

EU whether we are in the single market or not? Every country in the

well can have access to the single market, but they had to pay for it.

The issue is how much and the number might be on the back of a bus, are

called on the figures being banded about by the league campaign. There

is a gentleman over here talking about the constitutional fight

Theresa May might be having with the European Union. If she fights and

treat them in terms of how she has treated us, she will not get a good

deal. One of the issues we have got, if you listen to, as I have, to be

European countries and their responses, they are clear, they

don't think and want the UK to have a better deal in relation to the

European market outside the European Union than everybody else. So it

will be worse than the deal we have now. It is about jobs. Out of the

single market, we will lose 5% of our GDP and we're not even out yet.

Let me bring in some voices from the audience. We will come to the front

row in a moment, but first of all the gentlemen at the back? Can I ask

Fiona Hyslop why is it Right Brussels can dictate his Scotland

should independence happen, who we can negotiate trade deals with

globally? What is your position? We should be able to freely trade with

who we wish, it is a UK referendum. Lady on the front row in the middle

here. Fiona you highlight the growth of the food and drink industry in

Scotland, I run the food business and I have started to export. But my

business will fail with the rise of business rates set by the Scottish

Parliament, so I will be able to export regardless. I think the whole

Brexit thing is a sham. It was sold on a lie. And the whole thing is,

the whole point is it is part of a Tory power grab for agriculture and

fisheries in Scotland. You can shake your head all you want, there is a

reason Theresa May is... V pick-up on this, I want to pick up on that

issue. It was argued by the league campaign. I was in the remain

campaign. I oppose the league campaign. Absolutely, but you are

supporting the United Kingdom leaving the European Union? I am

supporting the democratic verdict of the United Kingdom in a lawful

referendum. The question is, in the the United Kingdom in a lawful

leave campaign they said if the UK left the European Union, the

Scottish Parliament would become much more powerful, taking control

of agriculture, fisheries and other areas. Will it happen? Yes, it is an

inevitable consequence of Brexit. It is an inevitable consequence of

Brexit. The Scottish Parliament will become even more powerful than it

is. Some of the powers will be repatriated to the United Kingdom

from Brussels and vented the default administrations and not centralised

in Westminster. Since the Scottish Parliament was reconvened in 1999,

agriculture... We have legislation in Scotland. Are you saying when

those powers come back from Brussels, they will go directly to

the Scottish Parliament? Can you tell me now the Westminster

government will never legislate on agriculture and fisheries? Can you

tell me they will never legislate? What I can say, a number of the

powers coming back from Brussels will come to Holyrood. But you don't

want any of these powers to be exercised by Holyrood, you want them

to stay in Brussels. We have a UK Government deciding and debating the

Scotland whether it comes to agriculture fisheries. Fisheries was

described as expendable by the UK in negotiations. You are talking about

the 70s. Some of the grievances are more recent. The idea of the UK

Government will go into Brexit negotiations and they only started

when the letter goes in next Wednesday. They haven't even

started. My concern will be what will be UK Government be able to

sacrifice to get the deal would be other EU countries that don't want

them to get a better deal than they currently have? That is the worry we

have for devolved competencies we have already and we have to protect

them. We need to be part of the process. When powers are re-pre- --

repatriated to the UK that a number of those powers will come to us as

MSPs in Holyrood and come to the Scottish Government. Some of them

will be retained at the UK level. There are number of things that are

currently reserved under the Scotland act. What is devolves will

come to us and what is reserved will go to Westminster. The common

agricultural policy... Will there be a UK replacement for it? What it

agricultural policy... Will there be does is it deals with agricultural

holdings, or so products safety, consumer protection, labelling, a

range of issues. Some of them under the Scotland act are reserved to

Westminster and some of them are devolved. There will be no repeat

reservation from powers from Holyrood to Westminster. No powers

will be taken away from the Scottish Parliament as a result of Brexit and

it is an inevitable consequence of Brexit that the Scottish Parliament

will become even more powerful than it currently is. Let me go to

another question from Dean Brown. What impact will Brexit have on

European Union nationals working in the UK? We currently have 181,000 EU

nationals living and working in Scotland and it is not just the jobs

they provide, it is the support that they have the Scottish businesses

that depend on EU nationals working there. If there is no guarantee,

which there is not as of now, as of Monday the Westminster government

and the Conservative government chose to vote against giving EU

nationals, who are human beings in our society, any guarantees at all.

How can they do that when they don't have similar guarantees the UK

nationals in EU countries? One of the things I think we agree in the

negotiation, if you are negotiating with 27 other countries, having a

bit of decency and respect for their nationals is the starting point. We

cannot have them used as bargaining chips. If she thinks that is to our

advantage, she is mistaken. More importantly, that is not the kind of

country I want to be part of, treating people in this inhumane

way. We told it will be one of them first areas to be dealt with once

discussions get under way, but was it a mistake for the Prime Minister

not to say, those here now will be entitled to say? What she has

clearly said is that she wants to be able to make that guarantee is as

soon as possible in the process of negotiations but it is not

appropriate until the guarantee is reciprocated by the EU with regard

to the 2 million British people living elsewhere. Fiona and I

disagree profoundly about all sorts of things in politics but we don't

disagree much on this question. My view is clearly and a few of my

party is clearly that immigration enriches our nation in Scotland, not

only in terms of the labour market but in terms of culture, the area

that Fyona is responsible for in the Scottish Government, my wife is an

immigrant, my agent in the election campaign last year was an immigrant,

many of the students I have taught, I taught European law in the

University of Glasgow and elsewhere, many of them and indeed many of my

colleagues on campus were from Europe and elsewhere. I want the

Prime Minister to be able to make that guarantee as soon as she

possibly can but we can't do it unilaterally, it has to be

reciprocal. The hold-up is not in rotation hands, it is the EU who for

reasons of their own are refusing to negotiate until Article 50 goes

ahead. -- in our our own hands. That is the procedure, isn't it? It is

unfortunate that the procedure has stopped those guarantees being

given. It is not just about the EU nationals that they hear that we

want to stay, it is future EU nationals that are so vital to our

health service and universities, what happens to future EU nationals.

Particularly if you are an EU national or you have personal

experience of a family member or a relative in that position... The

lady in the front row with the black and white top first of all. My

husband is French and has lived here the 27 years, we have been married

for eight years. I am British. He would have to go, I would want to

go. We couldn't go to Europe. Where do you suggest we go? How do you

feel about it? It is causing real problems health-wise because it is a

big, big decision. We can't go to Europe because he is French, I am

British. We could go to Cape Verde, cell our house. Nobody is saying you

and your husband can't stay in the UK. What the Prime Minister is

saying is that people like you husband and yourself, we want to be

able to give the guarantee as soon as is. Then give the guarantee. It

needs to be reciprocated, we have to million British people living

elsewhere in the EU. The lady in the back row. If you wanted to give the

guarantee, why don't you give it? As an EU citizen, to me that means you

are still open to a scenario where that scenario is not given because

of failure in negotiations, because of walking out without a deal, which

is part of the narrative. What is your personal experience? I am

Bulgarian. A lot of the narrative has been very negative, very

distressing. I am a teacher at university, there are a lot of

international students, a lot of worry, we have been called Barlow --

bargaining chips, citizens of nowhere as part of the conference in

the autumn. It is very traumatic. But your hand up if you are from an

EU background. -- put your hand. In Italy there are over 100 British

lecturers who have not received equal treatment despite six

judgments of the European Court of Justice. I have had their salaries

recently cut by 50% and they are denied access to judicial review.

Mrs May is surely right in demanding a reciprocal agreement.

Let's come back to our panel and Fiona Hyslop. This is a central part

of the type of country we want to be, I think, our respect for EU

nationals etc. There is also an economic factor. If you want to be

the best at innovation and research, we rely on our universitiesmm

already be seeing the concerns that they have regarding collaborative

contracts internationally. They might not be getting the same

research contracts. The director of the Edinburgh international festival

is Irish and has expressed his concerns only this week in a

newspaper article. It is also about the jobs here. There are many

companies that are out with the EU that have based themselves in

Scotland precisely because we have access and are members of the single

market. So what do you think is going to happen, they won't be

allowed to stay? I was about to come onto the second part, EU nationals

want to come? Will they want to become and be part of our country? I

would want them to be. We are not sending out the right signal

whatsoever. Never mind the disadvantages in two years' time,

when the UK leaves. It is already having a negative impact on

Scotland. We want to be one of the world's beacons for free-trade, and

that includes trade in goods and services on campus and in cultural

things. If those are the signals that you're sending out, there is no

reason at all to believe, unless you just want to do Britain damn, that

Britain will be anything other than a welcoming place for migrants,

wherever you come from. It does not feel so just now. There is no need

for this to be a difficult point of the negotiations. There will be some

really difficult things to negotiate but this does not need to be one of

them. We are into the final minute or so. I wanted to ask you a quick

follow-up, Leave campaign, Michael Gove, who you supported for the

leadership of the Conservative Party, he also said that post-wrecks

act, Holyrood could have some say over immigration - will that happen?

I don't know whether that will happen or not. -- post-Brexit. But

what absolutely will happen is that the powers and shape and structure

what absolutely will happen is that of the Holyrood parliament will grow

as a result of Brexit. There will be powers repatriated from Brussels

which will come to Edinburgh and Holyrood. That is a given. Fiona

Hyslop, isn't it the case that the UK would be better placed to get the

best possible deal if people like you and the Scottish Government and

the other devolved administrations were working with the UK Government

and being part of the same team? Absolutely. Well, we have been and

we have been attending the joint ministerial committees. We expect

and we must be part of negotiations going forward. To many of our

industries depend on the European market and we need to make sure that

we are part of that trainer and I expect support from the

Conservatives in Scotland to remain as part of that negotiating

mechanism. Thank you both very much indeed. We're going to have to leave

it there. I would have loved to get more audience members in, but we are

at the end of our time. Let me thank those of you who are in the

audience, especially for those who asked questions. My thanks to Brexit

from the Scottish Government and Adam Tom kins from the Scottish

Conservative Party. And of course, thanks to you for following our

debate. Let's return to our political

editor Brian Taylor, There is a phrase in politics,

parity of esteem. Tonight, we saw parity of uncertainty. I

characterised the referendum 2014 is one of doubt and reassurance, doubts

from the pro-European side, leaving it to the others to offer

reassurance. This time it strikes me there is bounty of uncertainty,

there is doubt all around us to what Brexit means. Doubts offered by

those supporting the union, as to when any referendum might take

place, the terms of Scotland's potential membership of the European

Union, doubt upon doubt upon doubt. In those circumstances, you get the

Prime Minister saying, there is already doubt and uncertainty as a

consequence of Brexit, better to leave alone until that is resolved.

You get Nicola Sturgeon offering exactly the counterpoint, saying

there is doubt and uncertainty, and that independence would help resolve

that. So you have competing solutions being offered.

that. So you have competing briefly, tomorrow, MSPs back at

Holyrood for that vote? Yes, second day of debate. The greens will vote

with the SNP come there will be a majority. They will demand that

referendum, the transfer of those powers from the Prime Minister. The

Prime Minister will say no. Let's have a look at the weather. Good

evening. Some fairly disruptive wintry weather around this morning,

but equally, some rather pretty pictures coming in from our Weather

Watchers. Not so pretty if you are stuck in it, though. Through the

afternoon, the showers gave way to some sunshine. Some of them did hold

on across the far north. Tonight, cold and frosty, but that's not the

whole story. Low pressure pushing in across parts of England, which could

cause some issues across southern Scotland tomorrow. And this. In the

far north giving wet weather overnight. In between, largely dry,

hold, frosty, icy. Across parts of northern Aberdeenshire, across the

Northern Isles, wintry showers continuing. Elsewhere, largely dry

but it will be cold of temperatures in the countryside down to -6.

Tomorrow morning, in the south, that low pressure just getting into parts

of Dumfriesshire. From the central lowlands northwards, it's largely

dry with any showers tending to fade away. Across the south, by

mid-afternoon, still fairly cloudy. Still one or two wintry showers over

the host of and quite cold. On the north-easterly, that will feel quite

bitter. Up to Perthshire, some showers a easing away after being

quite heavily during the course of the morning of heading through the

rest of the afternoon into the evening, we start to see a change.

The wet weather tends to clear away. This is Thursday, largely dry and

fine and bright, with some sunshine. Still a few shows perhaps, though,

for Shetland. And this is why we are having the change. A big area of

high pressure from the Azores spreading all the way up to us here

in Scotland. That's Reporting Scotland. I will be live from

Holyrood tomorrow night for analysis of that Scottish vote on the

independence referendum. Join me for that if you can. Good evening.

The 24-year-old man has been charged with murder.

You made sure an innocent man is charged!