21/03/2017 Reporting Scotland


Jackie Bird and Glenn Campbell host a live debate as a panel of leading politicians look at the impact of Brexit on Scotland and the options for Scotland's future.

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Heated exchanges in the Scottish Parliament as MSPs debate


whether there should be a second independence referendum.


For the UK Government to stand in the way of Scotland even having a


choice would be, in my view, wrong, unfair and utterly unsustainable.


Most people in Scotland are sick to death of The Games. Most people in


Scotland don't want another referendum any time soon.


Nicola Sturgeon wants another vote by Spring 2019,


the Prime Minister says that's too soon.


Join me for a special debate as an audience of viewers put their


questions on independence and Brexit to Fiona Hyslop from the SNP and


Adam Tomkins from the Scottish Conservatives. Also tonight...


A medical tribunal hears about the chaos at Heathrow Airport


as ebola nurse Pauline Cafferkey returned from Sierra Leone.


And keeping it in the family - how a married couple


from the Borders have made military history.


Nicola Sturgeon has accused the Prime Minister of acting


as a "road block" preventing Scotland from having a real choice


But the First Minister's critics said she would use


anything as "an excuse" to promote independence.


The exchanges came during the first day of debate over a demand


for Theresa May to concede a second referendum on Scotland's future.


This from our political editor Brian Taylor.


It is about time, timing, complex, political interplay. Theresa May is


about to signal the start Britain's withdrawal from the European Union.


That should take two years. She doesn't want to contemplate a


Scottish referendum during that period. But that strikes Nicola


Sturgeon as unfair. She says Scotland should be given a choice


before or just as Britain leaves the European Union. Between autumn 2018


and spring the year after. Nicola Sturgeon said it weighed heavily


upon her to call a rougher random, which many didn't relish. But she


blamed the Prime Minister for refusing to compromise on continuing


Scottish links with the EU. It will simply not be acceptable for the UK


Government to stand as a roadblock to the democratically expressed will


of this Parliament. For the UK Government to stand in the wake of


Scotland even having a choice, would be, in my view, wrong, unfair and


utterly unsustainable. But union supporters harked back to the


Edinburgh agreement which paved the way for the independence referendum


in 2014. They said the SNP had broken its pledge to respect the


outcome and a rerun was wrong. Most people in Scotland are sick to death


of The Games. Most people in Scotland don't want another


referendum any time soon, three years after the last one and most


people in Scotland see the common-sense in our own position.


Which is a second independence referendum shouldn't even be


contemplated until Brexit is resolved. Labour's leader said she


hated Tory rule, but... They want to replace Tory austerity with


turbo-charged austerity. Because the truth of the matter is, separation


would mean ?15 billion worth of cuts. Willie Rennie said those


against the referendum had faced a torrent of abuse from Independent


supporters. A second referendum would only make that worse. It will


be defied amylase, it will divide him Billy Maka communities and


divide communities. That is what happened last time. It is nice to be


given such a warm welcome. Ironic groans greeted Patrick Harvie.


Critics said the Greens have ruled out a referendum unless there was


public demand, but Mr Harvey brushed that aside. It is, Presiding


Officer, absurd to suggest we should not respond to and react to the


situation and the fundamentally changed circumstances we find


ourselves in. Outside Parliament, the attendant media, observing,


scrutinising. There is sound, there is light and tomorrow, there is a


vote on whether Holyrood demands another independence referendum.


Did we learn anything new in the debate?


One of the arguments were familiar, but we saw displayed again, the very


fact there is vehement discourse over independence on occasion.


Actually today, it was vitriolic. We saw the entrenched positions of the


various parties. But one thing differs, in 2014 he was accepted


there was to be referendum and the discourse was the nature of


independence on offer. This time it is not accepted there should be a


referendum. Those supporting the union say it is unwanted and


unwelcome. The First Minister says there will be instability in the UK


constitution and the question is whether joins in a choice with


regards to that change. Do you think the argument we are hearing at


Holyrood today and tomorrow, will influence Westminster in any way? I


don't see that happening. And the Conservative leader described this


debate as Groundhog Day. When she and David Blondel stood up on


Thursday responding to the primers's remarked that she would not


contemplate another referendum at this point, David Blondel said doing


it ahead of the debate was to leave the SNP in no doubt before they cast


the vote. And that vote will be tomorrow evening here at Holyrood.


Thank you very much. Meanwhile, it's understood MPs have


put off a final decision on whether the issue of a future


referendum on Scottish independence should get a further


airing at Westminster. An e-petition calling for a ban


on it has attracted more The Commons Petitions Committee


today considered whether a debate should be held by MPs


on the subject, but failed The expectation is that it will be


debated, but it may be linked to a counter petition in favour


of a second independence referendum. The First Minister has paid tribute


to Martin McGuinness, the former deputy First Minister


of Northern Ireland who died today. Nicola Sturgeon says


without his "hard and brave work" to bridge the divide,


peace would not have been achieved. Ms Sturgeon got to know


Mr McGuinness through their work She said he was optimistic


about the future but also understood the "fragility"


of the peace process. The death of Martin McGuinness has


brought intense reflection both on his role as former IRA commander


and as one of the architects of Tonight, while he received praise


from a former Scottish MP who served at the Northern Ireland Office,


the family of a soldier murdered by the IRA said they hoped


Martin McGuinness would be remembered as a terrorist


and not a statesman. Killed by the IRA in March 19 71.


He'd only been in the province a few weeks. It was a honey trap, longer


two other Scottish soldiers, teenagers John and Joseph McCague,


you was Lord to a remote spot and shot dead. It was a pivotal moment


and shattered their families. His cousin David was just three at the


time. No one has been convicted of the murders and an inquest returned


an open verdict. But David said the scar on his family has never healed.


He is convinced that as an IRA commander at the time, Martin


McGuinness must have known who was responsible. Martin McGuinness


played a part in the republican movement along with Gerry Adams. If


anything happened on the streets, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness


knew about it. Today, some of those who worked with Martin McGuinness


during the peace process say he played a crucial role in forging the


Good Friday agreement. There was a good Martin McGuinness and a bad


Martin McGuinness. He fought the bad fighter but then went on to fight


the good fight. Because of that we have the situation in Northern


Ireland today which is unparalleled. There is a peace process there and


he is a big feature of that. 46 years on, still campaigning for a


public enquiry into the deaths of the soldiers, David says he remains


convinced that Martin McGuinness went to his grave with secrets.


People will look on him as a statesman, other people will look


upon him as a terrorist. A doctor has told a tribunal


about the awful conditions that medical staff had to work


in during an Ebola outbreak The hearing is investigating


the circumstances surrounding Scottish nurse Pauline Cafferkey's


return to the UK. But this disciplinary medical


correspondent, Dominic Hughes. But this disciplinary medical


tribunal in Manchester heard today from Doctor Sharon Irvine, along


with Doctor Hannah Ryan and Pauline Cafferkey were part of NHS


volunteers who travelled out to Sierra Leone in 2014 at the height


of the Ebola clinic. She told the tribunal of the horrendous


conditions. 40 degrees heat, wearing top to toe protective clothing with


goggles and masks. It was extremely hot and they had to wear compares in


case one of them fainted and all the time surrounded by people who were


dying from Ebola. So not surprisingly at the end of their


stint, they were keen to be reunited with friends and family back at the


UK. When they arrived at Heathrow Airport they were confronted by a


screening Centre. That was described as chaotic, it was crowded, it was


noisy. She went through that screening process but when she was


in the arrivals hall, she was approached by Dr Hannah Ryan who


said there was a problem with Pauline Cafferkey's temperature.


Says she said immediately, we have got to contact Public Health England


and get her back into screening. We do know Pauline Cafferkey had gone


back into screening but had taken paracetamol, head temperature had


back into screening but had taken come down a bit so she was allowed


to get on the flight to Glasgow. The next day she collapsed and was


diagnosed with Ebola. The tribunal also heard from nurse Donna would he


was with Pauline Cafferkey and Dr Ryan when Dr Ryan the Pauline


Cafferkey's temperature and Dr Ryan's QC suggested it was nurse


Donna Ward who wrote the wrong temperature down on the format they


had to fill in, but she denies that. Hannah Ryan has admitted she knew


Pauline Cafferkey had a higher temperature and she went along with


writing down the lower temperature on the form. She failed to tell


Public Health England staff there was a problem with the temperature


and then she failed to be entirely straight, initially at least, with a


public-health enquiry after the event. She says her actions don't


amount to misconduct. Moves are under way to extradite


a retired priest from Canada to Scotland in connection


with child abuse claims. The Crown Office has been granted


a petition warrant for the arrest of Father Robert MacKenzie,


who lives in Saskatchewan. The 84 year-old taught


at the former Fort Augustus Abbey School before moving


to Canada in 1988. Papers are now being prepared


in the Crown Office to submit an extradition request


to the Canadian authorities. A plumber is to face trial accused


of causing a gas explosion in 2013, which saw this home's owners buried


in the rubble. Craig Hall is alleged to have failed


to properly install a boiler at Robin and Marion Cunningham's


house in Callander. A married couple from the Borders


are making military history. Lieutenant Colonel Gill Wilkinson


is passing command of her regiment Meet Mr and Mrs Allen and Gill


Wilkinson. They are all so both Lieutenant Colonel Wilkinson and one


has just taken the job from the other. Alan is in charge of Gill's


old regiment, making them the highest ranking couple to follow


each other in a command role. When a commanding officer leaves the


command, they don't look back at the regiment, they leave the next seal


to carry on. Although I am trying to do that, I can ask how people are


getting on and satisfied that parental bed. We work in a court


where men and women do equal jobs. It is unusual to have the husband


taking over from the wife or the other way around. There will always


be good banter. You have almost finished the course? Alan is


settling well into his white's old job while she is taking another


position in the reserves. They say this unusual handover shows how


opportunities for women in the Army are changing. Since I joined,


opportunities are increasing. Women are moving into combat roles. Does


Gill have any advice for her husband? She is always giving me


valuable advice. So yes, some is good, some I listen to and I do make


my own assessment. Both Lieutenant Colonel Wilkinson resists the


temptation to talk shop at home. Scotland's third most-capped rugby


player is to bring an end to his 17-year career at the end


of the season. Sean Lamont, seen here scoring


against Italy, amassed 105 The 36 year-old also helped


Glasgow Warriors to their first ever I'll be back later, but now


we to cross to my colleague Glenn Campbell for a special


Brexit debate. The Prime Minister Theresa May is


going to start the two-year process to take the UK out of the EU next


Wednesday. Tomorrow, a majority of MSPs are expected to back Nicola


Sturgeon in her call for the power to hold a second referendum on


Scottish independence, towards the end of the Brexit negotiations.


Plenty to talk about then. Debating before this live audience, two MSPs


with different views on Brexit and independence. We have the Scottish


Conservatives, Adam Tomkins who is a professor of constitutional law. And


the Cabinet Secretary for external furs, Fiona Hyslop from the SNP.


APPLAUSE They will be taking questions both


from me and from our audience, which includes members from both sides in


the independence debate, and some who are undecided. Let's go straight


to our first question, which comes from Janet... Should Theresa May be


allowed to delay the Scottish referendum because of Brexit? Should


she be allowed, Fiona Hyslop, to delay beyond the point of the


conclusion of the Brexit negotiations? The answer to that is


no. What we do agree with Theresa May on is, what we suggesting is, we


have a referendum at the point when we know what the terms of the Brexit


deal are. It should not be now. So we agree on that. That would allow


the Scottish people to have the choice on what they want. Brexit has


changed everything, and we need to make sure that Scotland is in the


best position to make sure that we can take advantage of the things


that are important to Scotland in terms of the type of country we want


to have, in terms of the economy, and what is in the best interests of


the economy. Also from a democracy point of view, it is really


important that it is the people of Scotland who have the choice, airing


in mind that 62% of people voted to remain. I know there's mixed


feelings. Some people may have changed their minds, but the choice


has two lies not with the politicians or the First Minister,


it really has to live with the people of Scotland at that time.


That would be 18 months to two years away, when the content of the Brexit


deal is available. And at that point, the choice should be with the


people of Scotland. The timetable the First Minister has suggested is


between the autumn of next year and the spring of 2019, surely we should


know the broad details of our exit deal from the EU by then, what is


wrong with that timescale? The question of the timing is really


extremely important. I think it is important that we understand how


this was done, with the independence referendum in 2014. It was done by


both the Westminster government and the Scottish Government agreeing a


timescale so the Section 30 order which was passed in Westminster


which gave the Scottish Parliament the power, legally come to hold that


decisive referendum in 2014, had to be held within a certain window of


time within a period which was agreed by the United Kingdom


government and the Scottish Government acting together. What


happened last week could hardly be more different from that process.


Because what happened last week was the First Minister of Scotland


announcing some kind of unilateral demand that there had to be a second


independence referendum, notwithstanding the fact that the


SNP had said it was a once in a generation event, there had to be a


second referendum within a certain period of time, between the end of


2018 and the beginning of 2019. I think Theresa May, as Prime Minister


of the whole of the United Kingdom, is absolutely right to say that now


is not the time to ask this question again. But what about towards the


end of the Brexit negotiations, which is what the First Minister is


for, can she sit down with the Prime Minister and come to an agreement


between we have to understand this from a position of principal. I go


back to the principles which were laid down in the Edinburgh


agreement, signed by Nicola Sturgeon, as do pity First Minister,


as well as by David Cameron and others from both governments. That


agreement said that an independence referendum was to be clear, fair,


legal and precise. It just wouldn't be fair to ask the people of


Scotland to decide on the independence question while there is


no clarity around either what the United Kingdom's relationship with


the European Union is going to be, or indeed Scotland's relationship


would be, either. Contact there will be more clarity around the Brexit


deal by the time we get to 2018, and there will be serious concerns about


the management of the whole Brexit process. Remember, it is about


democracy. Let me bring in some members of the audience. Starting in


the back row. European citizens were allowed to vote in the independence


referendum in 2014. According to the timescale suggested by Theresa May,


it will be very likely that we will not have a voice in another


referendum if it happens after Brexit. You would want EU citizens


to have that voice? I would like to have a voice. Presumably you are


anticipating that there will be a demand for another referendum, on


the basis of that question. The gentleman here. Is it not


unreasonable to ask the Prime gentleman here. Is it not


Minister to fight a constitutional issue in the UK simultaneously with


the EU? Is it not a distraction from the objectives of the Brexit


negotiations? Perhaps we will pick up on that. The lady in the front.


Brexit means the entirety of the UK is leaving the EU. There's no


guarantee that the EU will then allow Scotland to debate for itself


a package to remain within the EU whilst we are still part of the UK.


I think it is not necessarily true to suggest that the two could happen


at once, in such a timescale. So you're not against another


independence referendum, but it should happen after the UK has left?


I am massively against another referendum, not at all. But I think


the SNP is really misleading Scotland on what we are actually


capable of negotiating with the EU. Lady next to you is shaking her


head. Given the fact that the political landscape has changed,


there is no question that Scotland voted to remain in the EU. So Brexit


actually forces an undemocratic action on a democratic people. We


have a clear mandate to have a second referendum, which was in the


manifesto, that should circumstances change, we have the right to have a


second referendum on independence. Let's pick up that point. There was


a reference to this in the SNP manifesto, but as we mentioned in


the introduction, Adam Tomkins, by this time tomorrow, the Scottish


Parliament, by majority, will probably have urged the First


Minister to seek power from the UK Government to have another


referendum. What does the Prime Minister tactic? Well, since the


last election of a Scottish Parliament in May of last year, the


SNP government have lost five different votes on five different


subjects in the Scottish Parliament. And they have ignored every single


one - on education, on health, on enterprise boards, on energy. So if


the Scottish Government can ignore the verdicts of the Scottish


Parliament, when the Scottish Parliament is supposed to be


accountable, what on earth is the grounds for saying that the vote


tomorrow on a non-binding motion should somehow bind the hand of the


United Kingdom's Prime Minister when the United Kingdom's Prime Minister


is about to embark on what will be the most complex and difficult


negotiations of our political lifetime? Socially should stick to


her guns? I don't think the vote in the Scottish Parliament tomorrow


night will make any difference to the way in which the Prime Minister


has to carry on with her job as the Prime Minister of the United


Kingdom, and that job is to secure the best deal on leaving the


European Union for the whole of the United Kingdom, including for


Scotland. I agree that the noises around a second independence


referendum at this in a butcher in time are a distraction from what is


the most difficult and bishops and important set of negotiations that


the United Kingdom will be embarking upon in our lifetimes. The speaker,


we are not saying... Fiona Hyslop, why should the UK Prime Minister,


the UK Government, respect the will of the Scottish Parliament, when as


Adam Tomkins pointed out of the Scottish Government doesn't always


do that? We do, we go back to Parliament on all those votes that


he mentioned. A mandate in a manifesto clearly adds wait and is a


mandate to have a referendum in changed circumstances. It's not just


about the Scottish Government, it's also about the Scottish Parliament


and the will of the people of Scotland. In Scotland, the people of


Scotland are sovereign. I want to get back to the point the audience


were making about the Brexit negotiations. If we're going to be


held captive by a hard Brexit right-wing Conservative government


for two years, maybe more, just to see if it might work out all right,


that's a very dangerous position to be in. It's about democracy but it


is also about the people of Scotland having the choice. That to me is the


fundamental part of it. That's why the Scottish Parliament's vote


tomorrow is not just about Brexit or independence, it's about the right


of the Scottish people to exercise their sovereignty. Which we


exercised in 2014 and we said no. Changed circumstances. You are


determined that there should be another independence referendum on


that basis, but what if the Prime Minister says no, she's rejecting


the timetable, what will you do then? Theresa May has to respect the


sovereignty of the Scottish people. But if she says no, what is your


next move? We have been waiting patiently to have engagement on the


context of the Brexit has voted for by the United Kingdom. We have put


forward compromise proposals which would have had a situation where


Scotland could have remained as part of the single market. I understand


that, but if the position is that the Prime Minister is not prepared


to transfer the power, to have another referendum in the timescale


that the First Minister has set out, what you can do? We are now within


the eight days of the Article 50 letter which will take the UK out of


the European Union, and we have no content or detail about that. There


is fundamental constitutional change taking place. Is it an option for


you to have another referendum anyway, without the authority of


Westminster? Well, we want a referendum which is legal and


constitutional. We think we have got the authority for the Scottish


Parliament by a democratic vote tomorrow, that is the authority that


we would have. But can you have a referendum without that authority?


In the past, the Conservative Party has ignored the will of the people


In the past, the Conservative Party of Scotland, and we saw what


happened in the 1980s and 1990s. I think it would be otherwise... But


if she says no, do you still argue that it is an option but when we are


on a course of action which is to take the will of the people of


Scotland as democratic and exercised through the Scottish Parliament...


We are none the wiser. We are none the wiser of the content of the


Brexit letter which is going to to drag Scotland out of the EU against


our wishes, despite nine months of us trying to get some kind of


information regarding Scotland's interests as part of that. That is


the immediate issue facing interests as part of that. That is


Scotland's. The lady at the back. interests as part of that. That is


Fianna, if Scotland became an independent country, I would really


like to see changes in the NHS, especially mental health. And do you


see another independence referendum as an opportunity to change our


country, a positive opportunity? Yes. And here? I would like to put


the question, given the SNP's whole premise for this second referendum


would be to retain Scotland's position within the European Union,


the party itself is now rolling back from the position of suggesting that


the DEC or the FTA could be a alternative. So you're undermining


your own case. A country like Norway for instance is in the European free


trade Association, and through that, the European economy area, which


allows it to be in the single market but not in the union. I just want to


bring Fiona Hyslop in on that very point, are you watering down the


need for full EU membership? No, we're not. What we are proposing is


to have a system, as part of a compromises, by which Scotland could


remain as part of the single market, even if the rest of the UK left.


That is part of a compromises deal, what we wanted. Theresa May is not


engaging with that, so therefore so that we can pursue the interests on


the social and democratic and economic side, we now have to have


the choice to be able to make sure we can have some options for a


different path. We will not know where we're going to be by the time


we get to Brexit, never mind the transition. Adam Tomkins? I just


want to come back on something she said. She said twice that the Prime


Minister was standing in the way of the majority of Scottish opinion.


She is not, the Prime Minister is standing up for the majority of


Scottish opinion. There is a clear majority in Scottish opinion against


having a second independence referendum. And that's what the


Prime Minister is standing up for. The government which is standing in


the way of Scottish majority opinion at the moment is the SNP government


which Fiona Hyslop represents. And on the business of the relationship


that Scotland, an independent Scotland might have with the


European Union, what is your take on that? Alex Salmond, the former


leader of the SNP, said I think only this morning, and he's the foreign


affairs spokesman for the SNP, that an independent Scotland would not be


seeking full membership of the European Union, so he has been


perfectly clear since the morning of the 24th of June within hours of the


EU referendum result becoming clear, that this is a First Minister,


Nicola Sturgeon, who is using Brexit as a proxy for a second independence


referendum. On that, if we are already out of the European Union at


the point when you hold another independence referendum, if that


goes ahead, what then? Well, Adam Tomkins is clearly wrong about the


proposals that he is putting forward. Didn't Alex Salmond say


that? No, he didn't. He didn't say that. In terms of where we'll be,


this is why, changes happening... Do you accept that the starting point


might be that Scotland is already out of the European Union? Well, if


we do nothing and just sit back and sit on our hands and let Scotland


adrift for the next two years, we will definitely be out of the


European Union. What we're proposing in terms of the referendum is an


opportunity to make sure that Scotland can have a different path


and a different type of relationship. Which might not be at


the start, full EU membership? Talking to other European countries,


they perfectly understand the situation we find ourselves in. Now,


they all absolutely understand that we have to have the right to choose,


because of what has happened. Am not asking about that. I'm asking if you


accept that it is possible that if there is another independence


referendum, that the UK including Scotland will already be out as a


starting point? We won't know until that time. You accept it as a


possibility but when we won't know until at least we have the Brexit


terms of reference, which should be known... What is the latest point


that you could have an independence referendum that would allow Scotland


to stay in the European Union? The window we have, that has been set


out by the First Minister, iss 2018, which Theresa May at Lancaster House


said would be the time that we thought we would have the Brexit


said would be the time that we terms of reference. As confirmed by


David Davis. And more importantly, Michel Barnier, the European lead


negotiator, has also said that. Every other country by the way we'll


get to decide weather this is a good deal or bad deal, apart from


Scotland. So we have a window between the automata in the 18 and


the spring of 2019. According to Theresa May's own timetable, that is


the point that the UK will be out. So if it is after spring 2019, after


the end of May... That is the risk that we have, if we do nothing and


drift along for three years, Scotland's future will be decided


for us by a Conservative hard Brexiteer government, which actually


only has one MP out of 59 in Scotland. A few more thoughts from


our audience. Then we need to move on.


Could we not wait about 20 or 30 years to see the consequences


Could we not wait about 20 or 30 Brexit? And the gentleman in the


front row. I'm sick of hearing that Scotland voted to stay in. Fiona


Hyslop said there, 62% said it. The vote was not a Scottish vote, it was


a United Kingdom vote, and the majority of people in Scotland voted


in 2014 to stay in the United Kingdom. The only reason is a


logistic thing, if they counted all the votes in London or in Belfast in


one place, they would not have known and they would not have voted in the


same way. You just mentioned democracy three times. Let her


respond to the point. Think that's why, it is not just Scotland which


respond to the point. Think that's has concerns as to why there has


been so little engagement from the United Kingdom government over the


been so little engagement from the last nine months. The Welsh also are


making that point, and they voted to leave. So there were different


views. You have had your say, thank you very much. The gentleman,


waiting for 20 or 30 years, I know a life expecting the is good, but I'm


not sure you and I will be around to see that! One quick follow-up with


you, Adam Tomkins, it is reported that the Prime Minister is putting


the United Kingdom before she triggers Article 50 - should she


come to Scotland and sit down with the First Minister and try and work


this out? There is absolutely no reason why the Prime Minister and


the First Minister should not meet and discuss a number of issues. I


the First Minister should not meet want Scotland and that means


including the Scottish Government to be at the heart of Brexit


negotiations because I think it is important we get the right Brexit


deal for the whole of the UK. I do not want his second


independence referendum at all. I think the SNP should be held to the


commitment that it was a once in a generation referendum. I'm not going


to get into the detail about the timetable. The question is the


principle of the. That is the same as it was in 2012, which is that it


would be unfair to ask the people of Scotland weather they wanted to be


in an independent state weather they wanted to remain the United Kingdom


while the United Kingdom's relationship with the rest of the


United Kingdom is unclear, and while it is manifestly unclear at the


moment what an independent Scotland's relationship with the


European Union would be. We need to move on. We will leave detailed


questions on the merits and otherwise of independence for a


future debate. Another question now...


What advantage do you think we would have on leaving the EU? You were on


The Remain side, so how can you now argue for leave? I can do that


because I'm a Democrat. I lost the EU referendum, I wanted the United


Kingdom to remain in the European Union and most of my MSP colleagues


in all parties wanted the United Kingdom to remain.


In answer to your question, the first thing that the Prime Minister


has said is that we want the freest access to the European single


market. We want the greatest support trade deal.


Membership of the European Union does not allow you to have your own


arrangements with countries in the rest of the world. I believe, as I


think Fiona does as well, and we all do, that Brexit entails both


opportunities and risks. The task that lies ahead of us, whether we


are nationalist or unionist, whatever side, is to try and pull


together not to try to pull the country apart, to secure the best


possible Brexit deal for the whole of the UK, including Scotland. That


means maximise the opportunities and minimising the risk.


One of the opportunity Brexit gives is to be able to negotiate


free-trade agreements with the rest of the world, which you cannot do as


a member of the European Union. White Ayew so pessimistic that the


prospect of the UK, including Scotland? The single market we


support of, that single market membership is so important for


Scotland Conservatives. You saw the figures for Scottish food and drink


in terms of a 22% increase just last year in the growth of exports. 70%


of Scotland's food goes to Europe. In terms of continuing that


relationship with the single market is vital. We will still sell to the


EU whether we are in the single market or not? Every country in the


well can have access to the single market, but they had to pay for it.


The issue is how much and the number might be on the back of a bus, are


called on the figures being banded about by the league campaign. There


is a gentleman over here talking about the constitutional fight


Theresa May might be having with the European Union. If she fights and


treat them in terms of how she has treated us, she will not get a good


deal. One of the issues we have got, if you listen to, as I have, to be


European countries and their responses, they are clear, they


don't think and want the UK to have a better deal in relation to the


European market outside the European Union than everybody else. So it


will be worse than the deal we have now. It is about jobs. Out of the


single market, we will lose 5% of our GDP and we're not even out yet.


Let me bring in some voices from the audience. We will come to the front


row in a moment, but first of all the gentlemen at the back? Can I ask


Fiona Hyslop why is it Right Brussels can dictate his Scotland


should independence happen, who we can negotiate trade deals with


globally? What is your position? We should be able to freely trade with


who we wish, it is a UK referendum. Lady on the front row in the middle


here. Fiona you highlight the growth of the food and drink industry in


Scotland, I run the food business and I have started to export. But my


business will fail with the rise of business rates set by the Scottish


Parliament, so I will be able to export regardless. I think the whole


Brexit thing is a sham. It was sold on a lie. And the whole thing is,


the whole point is it is part of a Tory power grab for agriculture and


fisheries in Scotland. You can shake your head all you want, there is a


reason Theresa May is... V pick-up on this, I want to pick up on that


issue. It was argued by the league campaign. I was in the remain


campaign. I oppose the league campaign. Absolutely, but you are


supporting the United Kingdom leaving the European Union? I am


supporting the democratic verdict of the United Kingdom in a lawful


referendum. The question is, in the the United Kingdom in a lawful


leave campaign they said if the UK left the European Union, the


Scottish Parliament would become much more powerful, taking control


of agriculture, fisheries and other areas. Will it happen? Yes, it is an


inevitable consequence of Brexit. It is an inevitable consequence of


Brexit. The Scottish Parliament will become even more powerful than it


is. Some of the powers will be repatriated to the United Kingdom


from Brussels and vented the default administrations and not centralised


in Westminster. Since the Scottish Parliament was reconvened in 1999,


agriculture... We have legislation in Scotland. Are you saying when


those powers come back from Brussels, they will go directly to


the Scottish Parliament? Can you tell me now the Westminster


government will never legislate on agriculture and fisheries? Can you


tell me they will never legislate? What I can say, a number of the


powers coming back from Brussels will come to Holyrood. But you don't


want any of these powers to be exercised by Holyrood, you want them


to stay in Brussels. We have a UK Government deciding and debating the


Scotland whether it comes to agriculture fisheries. Fisheries was


described as expendable by the UK in negotiations. You are talking about


the 70s. Some of the grievances are more recent. The idea of the UK


Government will go into Brexit negotiations and they only started


when the letter goes in next Wednesday. They haven't even


started. My concern will be what will be UK Government be able to


sacrifice to get the deal would be other EU countries that don't want


them to get a better deal than they currently have? That is the worry we


have for devolved competencies we have already and we have to protect


them. We need to be part of the process. When powers are re-pre- --


repatriated to the UK that a number of those powers will come to us as


MSPs in Holyrood and come to the Scottish Government. Some of them


will be retained at the UK level. There are number of things that are


currently reserved under the Scotland act. What is devolves will


come to us and what is reserved will go to Westminster. The common


agricultural policy... Will there be a UK replacement for it? What it


agricultural policy... Will there be does is it deals with agricultural


holdings, or so products safety, consumer protection, labelling, a


range of issues. Some of them under the Scotland act are reserved to


Westminster and some of them are devolved. There will be no repeat


reservation from powers from Holyrood to Westminster. No powers


will be taken away from the Scottish Parliament as a result of Brexit and


it is an inevitable consequence of Brexit that the Scottish Parliament


will become even more powerful than it currently is. Let me go to


another question from Dean Brown. What impact will Brexit have on


European Union nationals working in the UK? We currently have 181,000 EU


nationals living and working in Scotland and it is not just the jobs


they provide, it is the support that they have the Scottish businesses


that depend on EU nationals working there. If there is no guarantee,


which there is not as of now, as of Monday the Westminster government


and the Conservative government chose to vote against giving EU


nationals, who are human beings in our society, any guarantees at all.


How can they do that when they don't have similar guarantees the UK


nationals in EU countries? One of the things I think we agree in the


negotiation, if you are negotiating with 27 other countries, having a


bit of decency and respect for their nationals is the starting point. We


cannot have them used as bargaining chips. If she thinks that is to our


advantage, she is mistaken. More importantly, that is not the kind of


country I want to be part of, treating people in this inhumane


way. We told it will be one of them first areas to be dealt with once


discussions get under way, but was it a mistake for the Prime Minister


not to say, those here now will be entitled to say? What she has


clearly said is that she wants to be able to make that guarantee is as


soon as possible in the process of negotiations but it is not


appropriate until the guarantee is reciprocated by the EU with regard


to the 2 million British people living elsewhere. Fiona and I


disagree profoundly about all sorts of things in politics but we don't


disagree much on this question. My view is clearly and a few of my


party is clearly that immigration enriches our nation in Scotland, not


only in terms of the labour market but in terms of culture, the area


that Fyona is responsible for in the Scottish Government, my wife is an


immigrant, my agent in the election campaign last year was an immigrant,


many of the students I have taught, I taught European law in the


University of Glasgow and elsewhere, many of them and indeed many of my


colleagues on campus were from Europe and elsewhere. I want the


Prime Minister to be able to make that guarantee as soon as she


possibly can but we can't do it unilaterally, it has to be


reciprocal. The hold-up is not in rotation hands, it is the EU who for


reasons of their own are refusing to negotiate until Article 50 goes


ahead. -- in our our own hands. That is the procedure, isn't it? It is


unfortunate that the procedure has stopped those guarantees being


given. It is not just about the EU nationals that they hear that we


want to stay, it is future EU nationals that are so vital to our


health service and universities, what happens to future EU nationals.


Particularly if you are an EU national or you have personal


experience of a family member or a relative in that position... The


lady in the front row with the black and white top first of all. My


husband is French and has lived here the 27 years, we have been married


for eight years. I am British. He would have to go, I would want to


go. We couldn't go to Europe. Where do you suggest we go? How do you


feel about it? It is causing real problems health-wise because it is a


big, big decision. We can't go to Europe because he is French, I am


British. We could go to Cape Verde, cell our house. Nobody is saying you


and your husband can't stay in the UK. What the Prime Minister is


saying is that people like you husband and yourself, we want to be


able to give the guarantee as soon as is. Then give the guarantee. It


needs to be reciprocated, we have to million British people living


elsewhere in the EU. The lady in the back row. If you wanted to give the


guarantee, why don't you give it? As an EU citizen, to me that means you


are still open to a scenario where that scenario is not given because


of failure in negotiations, because of walking out without a deal, which


is part of the narrative. What is your personal experience? I am


Bulgarian. A lot of the narrative has been very negative, very


distressing. I am a teacher at university, there are a lot of


international students, a lot of worry, we have been called Barlow --


bargaining chips, citizens of nowhere as part of the conference in


the autumn. It is very traumatic. But your hand up if you are from an


EU background. -- put your hand. In Italy there are over 100 British


lecturers who have not received equal treatment despite six


judgments of the European Court of Justice. I have had their salaries


recently cut by 50% and they are denied access to judicial review.


Mrs May is surely right in demanding a reciprocal agreement.


Let's come back to our panel and Fiona Hyslop. This is a central part


of the type of country we want to be, I think, our respect for EU


nationals etc. There is also an economic factor. If you want to be


the best at innovation and research, we rely on our universitiesmm


already be seeing the concerns that they have regarding collaborative


contracts internationally. They might not be getting the same


research contracts. The director of the Edinburgh international festival


is Irish and has expressed his concerns only this week in a


newspaper article. It is also about the jobs here. There are many


companies that are out with the EU that have based themselves in


Scotland precisely because we have access and are members of the single


market. So what do you think is going to happen, they won't be


allowed to stay? I was about to come onto the second part, EU nationals


want to come? Will they want to become and be part of our country? I


would want them to be. We are not sending out the right signal


whatsoever. Never mind the disadvantages in two years' time,


when the UK leaves. It is already having a negative impact on


Scotland. We want to be one of the world's beacons for free-trade, and


that includes trade in goods and services on campus and in cultural


things. If those are the signals that you're sending out, there is no


reason at all to believe, unless you just want to do Britain damn, that


Britain will be anything other than a welcoming place for migrants,


wherever you come from. It does not feel so just now. There is no need


for this to be a difficult point of the negotiations. There will be some


really difficult things to negotiate but this does not need to be one of


them. We are into the final minute or so. I wanted to ask you a quick


follow-up, Leave campaign, Michael Gove, who you supported for the


leadership of the Conservative Party, he also said that post-wrecks


act, Holyrood could have some say over immigration - will that happen?


I don't know whether that will happen or not. -- post-Brexit. But


what absolutely will happen is that the powers and shape and structure


what absolutely will happen is that of the Holyrood parliament will grow


as a result of Brexit. There will be powers repatriated from Brussels


which will come to Edinburgh and Holyrood. That is a given. Fiona


Hyslop, isn't it the case that the UK would be better placed to get the


best possible deal if people like you and the Scottish Government and


the other devolved administrations were working with the UK Government


and being part of the same team? Absolutely. Well, we have been and


we have been attending the joint ministerial committees. We expect


and we must be part of negotiations going forward. To many of our


industries depend on the European market and we need to make sure that


we are part of that trainer and I expect support from the


Conservatives in Scotland to remain as part of that negotiating


mechanism. Thank you both very much indeed. We're going to have to leave


it there. I would have loved to get more audience members in, but we are


at the end of our time. Let me thank those of you who are in the


audience, especially for those who asked questions. My thanks to Brexit


from the Scottish Government and Adam Tom kins from the Scottish


Conservative Party. And of course, thanks to you for following our


debate. Let's return to our political


editor Brian Taylor, There is a phrase in politics,


parity of esteem. Tonight, we saw parity of uncertainty. I


characterised the referendum 2014 is one of doubt and reassurance, doubts


from the pro-European side, leaving it to the others to offer


reassurance. This time it strikes me there is bounty of uncertainty,


there is doubt all around us to what Brexit means. Doubts offered by


those supporting the union, as to when any referendum might take


place, the terms of Scotland's potential membership of the European


Union, doubt upon doubt upon doubt. In those circumstances, you get the


Prime Minister saying, there is already doubt and uncertainty as a


consequence of Brexit, better to leave alone until that is resolved.


You get Nicola Sturgeon offering exactly the counterpoint, saying


there is doubt and uncertainty, and that independence would help resolve


that. So you have competing solutions being offered.


that. So you have competing briefly, tomorrow, MSPs back at


Holyrood for that vote? Yes, second day of debate. The greens will vote


with the SNP come there will be a majority. They will demand that


referendum, the transfer of those powers from the Prime Minister. The


Prime Minister will say no. Let's have a look at the weather. Good


evening. Some fairly disruptive wintry weather around this morning,


but equally, some rather pretty pictures coming in from our Weather


Watchers. Not so pretty if you are stuck in it, though. Through the


afternoon, the showers gave way to some sunshine. Some of them did hold


on across the far north. Tonight, cold and frosty, but that's not the


whole story. Low pressure pushing in across parts of England, which could


cause some issues across southern Scotland tomorrow. And this. In the


far north giving wet weather overnight. In between, largely dry,


hold, frosty, icy. Across parts of northern Aberdeenshire, across the


Northern Isles, wintry showers continuing. Elsewhere, largely dry


but it will be cold of temperatures in the countryside down to -6.


Tomorrow morning, in the south, that low pressure just getting into parts


of Dumfriesshire. From the central lowlands northwards, it's largely


dry with any showers tending to fade away. Across the south, by


mid-afternoon, still fairly cloudy. Still one or two wintry showers over


the host of and quite cold. On the north-easterly, that will feel quite


bitter. Up to Perthshire, some showers a easing away after being


quite heavily during the course of the morning of heading through the


rest of the afternoon into the evening, we start to see a change.


The wet weather tends to clear away. This is Thursday, largely dry and


fine and bright, with some sunshine. Still a few shows perhaps, though,


for Shetland. And this is why we are having the change. A big area of


high pressure from the Azores spreading all the way up to us here


in Scotland. That's Reporting Scotland. I will be live from


Holyrood tomorrow night for analysis of that Scottish vote on the


independence referendum. Join me for that if you can. Good evening.


The 24-year-old man has been charged with murder.


You made sure an innocent man is charged!


Jackie Bird and Glenn Campbell are joined by a panel of leading politicians and a studio audience for a live debate looking at the impact of Brexit on Scotland and the options for Scotland's future.

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