Browse content similar to 21/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Heated exchanges in the Scottish Parliament as MSPs debate | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
whether there should be a second independence referendum. | :00:09. | :00:17. | |
For the UK Government to stand in the way of Scotland even having a | :00:18. | :00:24. | |
choice would be, in my view, wrong, unfair and utterly unsustainable. | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
Most people in Scotland are sick to death of The Games. Most people in | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
Scotland don't want another referendum any time soon. | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
Nicola Sturgeon wants another vote by Spring 2019, | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
the Prime Minister says that's too soon. | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Join me for a special debate as an audience of viewers put their | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
questions on independence and Brexit to Fiona Hyslop from the SNP and | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
Adam Tomkins from the Scottish Conservatives. Also tonight... | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
A medical tribunal hears about the chaos at Heathrow Airport | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
as ebola nurse Pauline Cafferkey returned from Sierra Leone. | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
And keeping it in the family - how a married couple | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
from the Borders have made military history. | :01:06. | :01:18. | |
Nicola Sturgeon has accused the Prime Minister of acting | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
as a "road block" preventing Scotland from having a real choice | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
But the First Minister's critics said she would use | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
anything as "an excuse" to promote independence. | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
The exchanges came during the first day of debate over a demand | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
for Theresa May to concede a second referendum on Scotland's future. | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
This from our political editor Brian Taylor. | :01:39. | :01:49. | |
It is about time, timing, complex, political interplay. Theresa May is | :01:50. | :02:02. | |
about to signal the start Britain's withdrawal from the European Union. | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
That should take two years. She doesn't want to contemplate a | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
Scottish referendum during that period. But that strikes Nicola | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
Sturgeon as unfair. She says Scotland should be given a choice | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
before or just as Britain leaves the European Union. Between autumn 2018 | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
and spring the year after. Nicola Sturgeon said it weighed heavily | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
upon her to call a rougher random, which many didn't relish. But she | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
blamed the Prime Minister for refusing to compromise on continuing | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
Scottish links with the EU. It will simply not be acceptable for the UK | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
Government to stand as a roadblock to the democratically expressed will | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
of this Parliament. For the UK Government to stand in the wake of | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
Scotland even having a choice, would be, in my view, wrong, unfair and | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
utterly unsustainable. But union supporters harked back to the | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
Edinburgh agreement which paved the way for the independence referendum | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
in 2014. They said the SNP had broken its pledge to respect the | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
outcome and a rerun was wrong. Most people in Scotland are sick to death | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
of The Games. Most people in Scotland don't want another | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
referendum any time soon, three years after the last one and most | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
people in Scotland see the common-sense in our own position. | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
Which is a second independence referendum shouldn't even be | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
contemplated until Brexit is resolved. Labour's leader said she | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
hated Tory rule, but... They want to replace Tory austerity with | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
turbo-charged austerity. Because the truth of the matter is, separation | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
would mean ?15 billion worth of cuts. Willie Rennie said those | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
against the referendum had faced a torrent of abuse from Independent | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
supporters. A second referendum would only make that worse. It will | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
be defied amylase, it will divide him Billy Maka communities and | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
divide communities. That is what happened last time. It is nice to be | :04:10. | :04:18. | |
given such a warm welcome. Ironic groans greeted Patrick Harvie. | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
Critics said the Greens have ruled out a referendum unless there was | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
public demand, but Mr Harvey brushed that aside. It is, Presiding | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
Officer, absurd to suggest we should not respond to and react to the | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
situation and the fundamentally changed circumstances we find | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
ourselves in. Outside Parliament, the attendant media, observing, | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
scrutinising. There is sound, there is light and tomorrow, there is a | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
vote on whether Holyrood demands another independence referendum. | :04:52. | :04:52. | |
Did we learn anything new in the debate? | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
One of the arguments were familiar, but we saw displayed again, the very | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
fact there is vehement discourse over independence on occasion. | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
Actually today, it was vitriolic. We saw the entrenched positions of the | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
various parties. But one thing differs, in 2014 he was accepted | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
there was to be referendum and the discourse was the nature of | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
independence on offer. This time it is not accepted there should be a | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
referendum. Those supporting the union say it is unwanted and | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
unwelcome. The First Minister says there will be instability in the UK | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
constitution and the question is whether joins in a choice with | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
regards to that change. Do you think the argument we are hearing at | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
Holyrood today and tomorrow, will influence Westminster in any way? I | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
don't see that happening. And the Conservative leader described this | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
debate as Groundhog Day. When she and David Blondel stood up on | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
Thursday responding to the primers's remarked that she would not | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
contemplate another referendum at this point, David Blondel said doing | :06:09. | :06:16. | |
it ahead of the debate was to leave the SNP in no doubt before they cast | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
the vote. And that vote will be tomorrow evening here at Holyrood. | :06:22. | :06:23. | |
Thank you very much. Meanwhile, it's understood MPs have | :06:24. | :06:24. | |
put off a final decision on whether the issue of a future | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
referendum on Scottish independence should get a further | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
airing at Westminster. An e-petition calling for a ban | :06:30. | :06:31. | |
on it has attracted more The Commons Petitions Committee | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
today considered whether a debate should be held by MPs | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
on the subject, but failed The expectation is that it will be | :06:40. | :06:41. | |
debated, but it may be linked to a counter petition in favour | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
of a second independence referendum. The First Minister has paid tribute | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
to Martin McGuinness, the former deputy First Minister | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
of Northern Ireland who died today. Nicola Sturgeon says | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
without his "hard and brave work" to bridge the divide, | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
peace would not have been achieved. Ms Sturgeon got to know | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
Mr McGuinness through their work She said he was optimistic | :07:04. | :07:05. | |
about the future but also understood the "fragility" | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
of the peace process. The death of Martin McGuinness has | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
brought intense reflection both on his role as former IRA commander | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
and as one of the architects of Tonight, while he received praise | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
from a former Scottish MP who served at the Northern Ireland Office, | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
the family of a soldier murdered by the IRA said they hoped | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
Martin McGuinness would be remembered as a terrorist | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
and not a statesman. Killed by the IRA in March 19 71. | :07:35. | :07:51. | |
He'd only been in the province a few weeks. It was a honey trap, longer | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
two other Scottish soldiers, teenagers John and Joseph McCague, | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
you was Lord to a remote spot and shot dead. It was a pivotal moment | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
and shattered their families. His cousin David was just three at the | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
time. No one has been convicted of the murders and an inquest returned | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
an open verdict. But David said the scar on his family has never healed. | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
He is convinced that as an IRA commander at the time, Martin | :08:21. | :08:22. | |
McGuinness must have known who was responsible. Martin McGuinness | :08:23. | :08:29. | |
played a part in the republican movement along with Gerry Adams. If | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
anything happened on the streets, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
knew about it. Today, some of those who worked with Martin McGuinness | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
during the peace process say he played a crucial role in forging the | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
Good Friday agreement. There was a good Martin McGuinness and a bad | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
Martin McGuinness. He fought the bad fighter but then went on to fight | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
the good fight. Because of that we have the situation in Northern | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
Ireland today which is unparalleled. There is a peace process there and | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
he is a big feature of that. 46 years on, still campaigning for a | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
public enquiry into the deaths of the soldiers, David says he remains | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
convinced that Martin McGuinness went to his grave with secrets. | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
People will look on him as a statesman, other people will look | :09:25. | :09:25. | |
upon him as a terrorist. A doctor has told a tribunal | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
about the awful conditions that medical staff had to work | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
in during an Ebola outbreak The hearing is investigating | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
the circumstances surrounding Scottish nurse Pauline Cafferkey's | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
return to the UK. But this disciplinary medical | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
correspondent, Dominic Hughes. But this disciplinary medical | :09:41. | :09:52. | |
tribunal in Manchester heard today from Doctor Sharon Irvine, along | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
with Doctor Hannah Ryan and Pauline Cafferkey were part of NHS | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
volunteers who travelled out to Sierra Leone in 2014 at the height | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
of the Ebola clinic. She told the tribunal of the horrendous | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
conditions. 40 degrees heat, wearing top to toe protective clothing with | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
goggles and masks. It was extremely hot and they had to wear compares in | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
case one of them fainted and all the time surrounded by people who were | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
dying from Ebola. So not surprisingly at the end of their | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
stint, they were keen to be reunited with friends and family back at the | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
UK. When they arrived at Heathrow Airport they were confronted by a | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
screening Centre. That was described as chaotic, it was crowded, it was | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
noisy. She went through that screening process but when she was | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
in the arrivals hall, she was approached by Dr Hannah Ryan who | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
said there was a problem with Pauline Cafferkey's temperature. | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
Says she said immediately, we have got to contact Public Health England | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
and get her back into screening. We do know Pauline Cafferkey had gone | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
back into screening but had taken paracetamol, head temperature had | :11:05. | :11:05. | |
back into screening but had taken come down a bit so she was allowed | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
to get on the flight to Glasgow. The next day she collapsed and was | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
diagnosed with Ebola. The tribunal also heard from nurse Donna would he | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
was with Pauline Cafferkey and Dr Ryan when Dr Ryan the Pauline | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
Cafferkey's temperature and Dr Ryan's QC suggested it was nurse | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
Donna Ward who wrote the wrong temperature down on the format they | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
had to fill in, but she denies that. Hannah Ryan has admitted she knew | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
Pauline Cafferkey had a higher temperature and she went along with | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
writing down the lower temperature on the form. She failed to tell | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
Public Health England staff there was a problem with the temperature | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
and then she failed to be entirely straight, initially at least, with a | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
public-health enquiry after the event. She says her actions don't | :11:54. | :11:55. | |
amount to misconduct. Moves are under way to extradite | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
a retired priest from Canada to Scotland in connection | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
with child abuse claims. The Crown Office has been granted | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
a petition warrant for the arrest of Father Robert MacKenzie, | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
who lives in Saskatchewan. The 84 year-old taught | :12:09. | :12:10. | |
at the former Fort Augustus Abbey School before moving | :12:11. | :12:12. | |
to Canada in 1988. Papers are now being prepared | :12:13. | :12:14. | |
in the Crown Office to submit an extradition request | :12:15. | :12:16. | |
to the Canadian authorities. A plumber is to face trial accused | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
of causing a gas explosion in 2013, which saw this home's owners buried | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
in the rubble. Craig Hall is alleged to have failed | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
to properly install a boiler at Robin and Marion Cunningham's | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
house in Callander. A married couple from the Borders | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
are making military history. Lieutenant Colonel Gill Wilkinson | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
is passing command of her regiment Meet Mr and Mrs Allen and Gill | :12:41. | :13:02. | |
Wilkinson. They are all so both Lieutenant Colonel Wilkinson and one | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
has just taken the job from the other. Alan is in charge of Gill's | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
old regiment, making them the highest ranking couple to follow | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
each other in a command role. When a commanding officer leaves the | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
command, they don't look back at the regiment, they leave the next seal | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
to carry on. Although I am trying to do that, I can ask how people are | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
getting on and satisfied that parental bed. We work in a court | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
where men and women do equal jobs. It is unusual to have the husband | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
taking over from the wife or the other way around. There will always | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
be good banter. You have almost finished the course? Alan is | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
settling well into his white's old job while she is taking another | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
position in the reserves. They say this unusual handover shows how | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
opportunities for women in the Army are changing. Since I joined, | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
opportunities are increasing. Women are moving into combat roles. Does | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
Gill have any advice for her husband? She is always giving me | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
valuable advice. So yes, some is good, some I listen to and I do make | :14:17. | :14:27. | |
my own assessment. Both Lieutenant Colonel Wilkinson resists the | :14:28. | :14:29. | |
temptation to talk shop at home. Scotland's third most-capped rugby | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
player is to bring an end to his 17-year career at the end | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
of the season. Sean Lamont, seen here scoring | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
against Italy, amassed 105 The 36 year-old also helped | :14:41. | :14:42. | |
Glasgow Warriors to their first ever I'll be back later, but now | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
we to cross to my colleague Glenn Campbell for a special | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
Brexit debate. The Prime Minister Theresa May is | :14:54. | :15:05. | |
going to start the two-year process to take the UK out of the EU next | :15:06. | :15:13. | |
Wednesday. Tomorrow, a majority of MSPs are expected to back Nicola | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
Sturgeon in her call for the power to hold a second referendum on | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
Scottish independence, towards the end of the Brexit negotiations. | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
Plenty to talk about then. Debating before this live audience, two MSPs | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
with different views on Brexit and independence. We have the Scottish | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
Conservatives, Adam Tomkins who is a professor of constitutional law. And | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
the Cabinet Secretary for external furs, Fiona Hyslop from the SNP. | :15:44. | :15:45. | |
APPLAUSE They will be taking questions both | :15:46. | :16:01. | |
from me and from our audience, which includes members from both sides in | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
the independence debate, and some who are undecided. Let's go straight | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
to our first question, which comes from Janet... Should Theresa May be | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
allowed to delay the Scottish referendum because of Brexit? Should | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
she be allowed, Fiona Hyslop, to delay beyond the point of the | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
conclusion of the Brexit negotiations? The answer to that is | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
no. What we do agree with Theresa May on is, what we suggesting is, we | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
have a referendum at the point when we know what the terms of the Brexit | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
deal are. It should not be now. So we agree on that. That would allow | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
the Scottish people to have the choice on what they want. Brexit has | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
changed everything, and we need to make sure that Scotland is in the | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
best position to make sure that we can take advantage of the things | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
that are important to Scotland in terms of the type of country we want | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
to have, in terms of the economy, and what is in the best interests of | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
the economy. Also from a democracy point of view, it is really | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
important that it is the people of Scotland who have the choice, airing | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
in mind that 62% of people voted to remain. I know there's mixed | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
feelings. Some people may have changed their minds, but the choice | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
has two lies not with the politicians or the First Minister, | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
it really has to live with the people of Scotland at that time. | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
That would be 18 months to two years away, when the content of the Brexit | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
deal is available. And at that point, the choice should be with the | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
people of Scotland. The timetable the First Minister has suggested is | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
between the autumn of next year and the spring of 2019, surely we should | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
know the broad details of our exit deal from the EU by then, what is | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
wrong with that timescale? The question of the timing is really | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
extremely important. I think it is important that we understand how | :17:56. | :17:57. | |
this was done, with the independence referendum in 2014. It was done by | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
both the Westminster government and the Scottish Government agreeing a | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
timescale so the Section 30 order which was passed in Westminster | :18:10. | :18:11. | |
which gave the Scottish Parliament the power, legally come to hold that | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
decisive referendum in 2014, had to be held within a certain window of | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
time within a period which was agreed by the United Kingdom | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
government and the Scottish Government acting together. What | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
happened last week could hardly be more different from that process. | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
Because what happened last week was the First Minister of Scotland | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
announcing some kind of unilateral demand that there had to be a second | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
independence referendum, notwithstanding the fact that the | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
SNP had said it was a once in a generation event, there had to be a | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
second referendum within a certain period of time, between the end of | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
2018 and the beginning of 2019. I think Theresa May, as Prime Minister | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
of the whole of the United Kingdom, is absolutely right to say that now | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
is not the time to ask this question again. But what about towards the | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
end of the Brexit negotiations, which is what the First Minister is | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
for, can she sit down with the Prime Minister and come to an agreement | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
between we have to understand this from a position of principal. I go | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
back to the principles which were laid down in the Edinburgh | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
agreement, signed by Nicola Sturgeon, as do pity First Minister, | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
as well as by David Cameron and others from both governments. That | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
agreement said that an independence referendum was to be clear, fair, | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
legal and precise. It just wouldn't be fair to ask the people of | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
Scotland to decide on the independence question while there is | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
no clarity around either what the United Kingdom's relationship with | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
the European Union is going to be, or indeed Scotland's relationship | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
would be, either. Contact there will be more clarity around the Brexit | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
deal by the time we get to 2018, and there will be serious concerns about | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
the management of the whole Brexit process. Remember, it is about | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
democracy. Let me bring in some members of the audience. Starting in | :20:10. | :20:17. | |
the back row. European citizens were allowed to vote in the independence | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
referendum in 2014. According to the timescale suggested by Theresa May, | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
it will be very likely that we will not have a voice in another | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
referendum if it happens after Brexit. You would want EU citizens | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
to have that voice? I would like to have a voice. Presumably you are | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
anticipating that there will be a demand for another referendum, on | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
the basis of that question. The gentleman here. Is it not | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
unreasonable to ask the Prime gentleman here. Is it not | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
Minister to fight a constitutional issue in the UK simultaneously with | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
the EU? Is it not a distraction from the objectives of the Brexit | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
negotiations? Perhaps we will pick up on that. The lady in the front. | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
Brexit means the entirety of the UK is leaving the EU. There's no | :21:11. | :21:18. | |
guarantee that the EU will then allow Scotland to debate for itself | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
a package to remain within the EU whilst we are still part of the UK. | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
I think it is not necessarily true to suggest that the two could happen | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
at once, in such a timescale. So you're not against another | :21:32. | :21:33. | |
independence referendum, but it should happen after the UK has left? | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
I am massively against another referendum, not at all. But I think | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
the SNP is really misleading Scotland on what we are actually | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
capable of negotiating with the EU. Lady next to you is shaking her | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
head. Given the fact that the political landscape has changed, | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
there is no question that Scotland voted to remain in the EU. So Brexit | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
actually forces an undemocratic action on a democratic people. We | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
have a clear mandate to have a second referendum, which was in the | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
manifesto, that should circumstances change, we have the right to have a | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
second referendum on independence. Let's pick up that point. There was | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
a reference to this in the SNP manifesto, but as we mentioned in | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
the introduction, Adam Tomkins, by this time tomorrow, the Scottish | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
Parliament, by majority, will probably have urged the First | :22:28. | :22:29. | |
Minister to seek power from the UK Government to have another | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
referendum. What does the Prime Minister tactic? Well, since the | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
last election of a Scottish Parliament in May of last year, the | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
SNP government have lost five different votes on five different | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
subjects in the Scottish Parliament. And they have ignored every single | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
one - on education, on health, on enterprise boards, on energy. So if | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
the Scottish Government can ignore the verdicts of the Scottish | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
Parliament, when the Scottish Parliament is supposed to be | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
accountable, what on earth is the grounds for saying that the vote | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
tomorrow on a non-binding motion should somehow bind the hand of the | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
United Kingdom's Prime Minister when the United Kingdom's Prime Minister | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
is about to embark on what will be the most complex and difficult | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
negotiations of our political lifetime? Socially should stick to | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
her guns? I don't think the vote in the Scottish Parliament tomorrow | :23:25. | :23:26. | |
night will make any difference to the way in which the Prime Minister | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
has to carry on with her job as the Prime Minister of the United | :23:31. | :23:32. | |
Kingdom, and that job is to secure the best deal on leaving the | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
European Union for the whole of the United Kingdom, including for | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
Scotland. I agree that the noises around a second independence | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
referendum at this in a butcher in time are a distraction from what is | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
the most difficult and bishops and important set of negotiations that | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
the United Kingdom will be embarking upon in our lifetimes. The speaker, | :23:52. | :24:01. | |
we are not saying... Fiona Hyslop, why should the UK Prime Minister, | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
the UK Government, respect the will of the Scottish Parliament, when as | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
Adam Tomkins pointed out of the Scottish Government doesn't always | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
do that? We do, we go back to Parliament on all those votes that | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
he mentioned. A mandate in a manifesto clearly adds wait and is a | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
mandate to have a referendum in changed circumstances. It's not just | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
about the Scottish Government, it's also about the Scottish Parliament | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
and the will of the people of Scotland. In Scotland, the people of | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
Scotland are sovereign. I want to get back to the point the audience | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
were making about the Brexit negotiations. If we're going to be | :24:39. | :24:48. | |
held captive by a hard Brexit right-wing Conservative government | :24:49. | :24:50. | |
for two years, maybe more, just to see if it might work out all right, | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
that's a very dangerous position to be in. It's about democracy but it | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
is also about the people of Scotland having the choice. That to me is the | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
fundamental part of it. That's why the Scottish Parliament's vote | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
tomorrow is not just about Brexit or independence, it's about the right | :25:09. | :25:10. | |
of the Scottish people to exercise their sovereignty. Which we | :25:11. | :25:18. | |
exercised in 2014 and we said no. Changed circumstances. You are | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
determined that there should be another independence referendum on | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
that basis, but what if the Prime Minister says no, she's rejecting | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
the timetable, what will you do then? Theresa May has to respect the | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
sovereignty of the Scottish people. But if she says no, what is your | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
next move? We have been waiting patiently to have engagement on the | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
context of the Brexit has voted for by the United Kingdom. We have put | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
forward compromise proposals which would have had a situation where | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
Scotland could have remained as part of the single market. I understand | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
that, but if the position is that the Prime Minister is not prepared | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
to transfer the power, to have another referendum in the timescale | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
that the First Minister has set out, what you can do? We are now within | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
the eight days of the Article 50 letter which will take the UK out of | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
the European Union, and we have no content or detail about that. There | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
is fundamental constitutional change taking place. Is it an option for | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
you to have another referendum anyway, without the authority of | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
Westminster? Well, we want a referendum which is legal and | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
constitutional. We think we have got the authority for the Scottish | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
Parliament by a democratic vote tomorrow, that is the authority that | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
we would have. But can you have a referendum without that authority? | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
In the past, the Conservative Party has ignored the will of the people | :26:45. | :26:46. | |
In the past, the Conservative Party of Scotland, and we saw what | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
happened in the 1980s and 1990s. I think it would be otherwise... But | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
if she says no, do you still argue that it is an option but when we are | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
on a course of action which is to take the will of the people of | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
Scotland as democratic and exercised through the Scottish Parliament... | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
We are none the wiser. We are none the wiser of the content of the | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
Brexit letter which is going to to drag Scotland out of the EU against | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
our wishes, despite nine months of us trying to get some kind of | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
information regarding Scotland's interests as part of that. That is | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
the immediate issue facing interests as part of that. That is | :27:24. | :27:24. | |
Scotland's. The lady at the back. interests as part of that. That is | :27:25. | :27:35. | |
Fianna, if Scotland became an independent country, I would really | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
like to see changes in the NHS, especially mental health. And do you | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
see another independence referendum as an opportunity to change our | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
country, a positive opportunity? Yes. And here? I would like to put | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
the question, given the SNP's whole premise for this second referendum | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
would be to retain Scotland's position within the European Union, | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
the party itself is now rolling back from the position of suggesting that | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
the DEC or the FTA could be a alternative. So you're undermining | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
your own case. A country like Norway for instance is in the European free | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
trade Association, and through that, the European economy area, which | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
allows it to be in the single market but not in the union. I just want to | :28:21. | :28:28. | |
bring Fiona Hyslop in on that very point, are you watering down the | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
need for full EU membership? No, we're not. What we are proposing is | :28:34. | :28:41. | |
to have a system, as part of a compromises, by which Scotland could | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
remain as part of the single market, even if the rest of the UK left. | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
That is part of a compromises deal, what we wanted. Theresa May is not | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
engaging with that, so therefore so that we can pursue the interests on | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
the social and democratic and economic side, we now have to have | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
the choice to be able to make sure we can have some options for a | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
different path. We will not know where we're going to be by the time | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
we get to Brexit, never mind the transition. Adam Tomkins? I just | :29:08. | :29:15. | |
want to come back on something she said. She said twice that the Prime | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
Minister was standing in the way of the majority of Scottish opinion. | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
She is not, the Prime Minister is standing up for the majority of | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
Scottish opinion. There is a clear majority in Scottish opinion against | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
having a second independence referendum. And that's what the | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
Prime Minister is standing up for. The government which is standing in | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
the way of Scottish majority opinion at the moment is the SNP government | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
which Fiona Hyslop represents. And on the business of the relationship | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
that Scotland, an independent Scotland might have with the | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
European Union, what is your take on that? Alex Salmond, the former | :29:49. | :29:56. | |
leader of the SNP, said I think only this morning, and he's the foreign | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
affairs spokesman for the SNP, that an independent Scotland would not be | :30:01. | :30:02. | |
seeking full membership of the European Union, so he has been | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
perfectly clear since the morning of the 24th of June within hours of the | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
EU referendum result becoming clear, that this is a First Minister, | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
Nicola Sturgeon, who is using Brexit as a proxy for a second independence | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
referendum. On that, if we are already out of the European Union at | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
the point when you hold another independence referendum, if that | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
goes ahead, what then? Well, Adam Tomkins is clearly wrong about the | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
proposals that he is putting forward. Didn't Alex Salmond say | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
that? No, he didn't. He didn't say that. In terms of where we'll be, | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
this is why, changes happening... Do you accept that the starting point | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
might be that Scotland is already out of the European Union? Well, if | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
we do nothing and just sit back and sit on our hands and let Scotland | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
adrift for the next two years, we will definitely be out of the | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
European Union. What we're proposing in terms of the referendum is an | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
opportunity to make sure that Scotland can have a different path | :31:08. | :31:09. | |
and a different type of relationship. Which might not be at | :31:10. | :31:16. | |
the start, full EU membership? Talking to other European countries, | :31:17. | :31:18. | |
they perfectly understand the situation we find ourselves in. Now, | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
they all absolutely understand that we have to have the right to choose, | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
because of what has happened. Am not asking about that. I'm asking if you | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
accept that it is possible that if there is another independence | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
referendum, that the UK including Scotland will already be out as a | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
starting point? We won't know until that time. You accept it as a | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
possibility but when we won't know until at least we have the Brexit | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
terms of reference, which should be known... What is the latest point | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
that you could have an independence referendum that would allow Scotland | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
to stay in the European Union? The window we have, that has been set | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
out by the First Minister, iss 2018, which Theresa May at Lancaster House | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
said would be the time that we thought we would have the Brexit | :32:12. | :32:13. | |
said would be the time that we terms of reference. As confirmed by | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
David Davis. And more importantly, Michel Barnier, the European lead | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
negotiator, has also said that. Every other country by the way we'll | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
get to decide weather this is a good deal or bad deal, apart from | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
Scotland. So we have a window between the automata in the 18 and | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
the spring of 2019. According to Theresa May's own timetable, that is | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
the point that the UK will be out. So if it is after spring 2019, after | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
the end of May... That is the risk that we have, if we do nothing and | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
drift along for three years, Scotland's future will be decided | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
for us by a Conservative hard Brexiteer government, which actually | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
only has one MP out of 59 in Scotland. A few more thoughts from | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
our audience. Then we need to move on. | :33:06. | :33:16. | |
Could we not wait about 20 or 30 years to see the consequences | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
Could we not wait about 20 or 30 Brexit? And the gentleman in the | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
front row. I'm sick of hearing that Scotland voted to stay in. Fiona | :33:28. | :33:36. | |
Hyslop said there, 62% said it. The vote was not a Scottish vote, it was | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
a United Kingdom vote, and the majority of people in Scotland voted | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
in 2014 to stay in the United Kingdom. The only reason is a | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
logistic thing, if they counted all the votes in London or in Belfast in | :33:51. | :34:04. | |
one place, they would not have known and they would not have voted in the | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
same way. You just mentioned democracy three times. Let her | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
respond to the point. Think that's why, it is not just Scotland which | :34:17. | :34:18. | |
respond to the point. Think that's has concerns as to why there has | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
been so little engagement from the United Kingdom government over the | :34:23. | :34:24. | |
been so little engagement from the last nine months. The Welsh also are | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
making that point, and they voted to leave. So there were different | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
views. You have had your say, thank you very much. The gentleman, | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
waiting for 20 or 30 years, I know a life expecting the is good, but I'm | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
not sure you and I will be around to see that! One quick follow-up with | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
you, Adam Tomkins, it is reported that the Prime Minister is putting | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
the United Kingdom before she triggers Article 50 - should she | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
come to Scotland and sit down with the First Minister and try and work | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
this out? There is absolutely no reason why the Prime Minister and | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
the First Minister should not meet and discuss a number of issues. I | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
the First Minister should not meet want Scotland and that means | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
including the Scottish Government to be at the heart of Brexit | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
negotiations because I think it is important we get the right Brexit | :35:16. | :35:16. | |
deal for the whole of the UK. I do not want his second | :35:17. | :35:40. | |
independence referendum at all. I think the SNP should be held to the | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
commitment that it was a once in a generation referendum. I'm not going | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
to get into the detail about the timetable. The question is the | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
principle of the. That is the same as it was in 2012, which is that it | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
would be unfair to ask the people of Scotland weather they wanted to be | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
in an independent state weather they wanted to remain the United Kingdom | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
while the United Kingdom's relationship with the rest of the | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
United Kingdom is unclear, and while it is manifestly unclear at the | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
moment what an independent Scotland's relationship with the | :36:15. | :36:16. | |
European Union would be. We need to move on. We will leave detailed | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
questions on the merits and otherwise of independence for a | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
future debate. Another question now... | :36:27. | :36:40. | |
What advantage do you think we would have on leaving the EU? You were on | :36:41. | :36:48. | |
The Remain side, so how can you now argue for leave? I can do that | :36:49. | :36:57. | |
because I'm a Democrat. I lost the EU referendum, I wanted the United | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
Kingdom to remain in the European Union and most of my MSP colleagues | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
in all parties wanted the United Kingdom to remain. | :37:05. | :37:31. | |
In answer to your question, the first thing that the Prime Minister | :37:32. | :37:39. | |
has said is that we want the freest access to the European single | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
market. We want the greatest support trade deal. | :37:42. | :37:59. | |
Membership of the European Union does not allow you to have your own | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
arrangements with countries in the rest of the world. I believe, as I | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
think Fiona does as well, and we all do, that Brexit entails both | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
opportunities and risks. The task that lies ahead of us, whether we | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
are nationalist or unionist, whatever side, is to try and pull | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
together not to try to pull the country apart, to secure the best | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
possible Brexit deal for the whole of the UK, including Scotland. That | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
means maximise the opportunities and minimising the risk. | :38:30. | :38:37. | |
One of the opportunity Brexit gives is to be able to negotiate | :38:38. | :38:44. | |
free-trade agreements with the rest of the world, which you cannot do as | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
a member of the European Union. White Ayew so pessimistic that the | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
prospect of the UK, including Scotland? The single market we | :38:56. | :39:05. | |
support of, that single market membership is so important for | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
Scotland Conservatives. You saw the figures for Scottish food and drink | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
in terms of a 22% increase just last year in the growth of exports. 70% | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
of Scotland's food goes to Europe. In terms of continuing that | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
relationship with the single market is vital. We will still sell to the | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
EU whether we are in the single market or not? Every country in the | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
well can have access to the single market, but they had to pay for it. | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
The issue is how much and the number might be on the back of a bus, are | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
called on the figures being banded about by the league campaign. There | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
is a gentleman over here talking about the constitutional fight | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
Theresa May might be having with the European Union. If she fights and | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
treat them in terms of how she has treated us, she will not get a good | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
deal. One of the issues we have got, if you listen to, as I have, to be | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
European countries and their responses, they are clear, they | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
don't think and want the UK to have a better deal in relation to the | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
European market outside the European Union than everybody else. So it | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
will be worse than the deal we have now. It is about jobs. Out of the | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
single market, we will lose 5% of our GDP and we're not even out yet. | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
Let me bring in some voices from the audience. We will come to the front | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
row in a moment, but first of all the gentlemen at the back? Can I ask | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
Fiona Hyslop why is it Right Brussels can dictate his Scotland | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
should independence happen, who we can negotiate trade deals with | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
globally? What is your position? We should be able to freely trade with | :40:57. | :41:05. | |
who we wish, it is a UK referendum. Lady on the front row in the middle | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
here. Fiona you highlight the growth of the food and drink industry in | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
Scotland, I run the food business and I have started to export. But my | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
business will fail with the rise of business rates set by the Scottish | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
Parliament, so I will be able to export regardless. I think the whole | :41:25. | :41:33. | |
Brexit thing is a sham. It was sold on a lie. And the whole thing is, | :41:34. | :41:44. | |
the whole point is it is part of a Tory power grab for agriculture and | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
fisheries in Scotland. You can shake your head all you want, there is a | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
reason Theresa May is... V pick-up on this, I want to pick up on that | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
issue. It was argued by the league campaign. I was in the remain | :42:00. | :42:08. | |
campaign. I oppose the league campaign. Absolutely, but you are | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
supporting the United Kingdom leaving the European Union? I am | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
supporting the democratic verdict of the United Kingdom in a lawful | :42:19. | :42:19. | |
referendum. The question is, in the the United Kingdom in a lawful | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
leave campaign they said if the UK left the European Union, the | :42:27. | :42:28. | |
Scottish Parliament would become much more powerful, taking control | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
of agriculture, fisheries and other areas. Will it happen? Yes, it is an | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
inevitable consequence of Brexit. It is an inevitable consequence of | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
Brexit. The Scottish Parliament will become even more powerful than it | :42:48. | :42:57. | |
is. Some of the powers will be repatriated to the United Kingdom | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
from Brussels and vented the default administrations and not centralised | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
in Westminster. Since the Scottish Parliament was reconvened in 1999, | :43:11. | :43:20. | |
agriculture... We have legislation in Scotland. Are you saying when | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
those powers come back from Brussels, they will go directly to | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
the Scottish Parliament? Can you tell me now the Westminster | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
government will never legislate on agriculture and fisheries? Can you | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
tell me they will never legislate? What I can say, a number of the | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
powers coming back from Brussels will come to Holyrood. But you don't | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
want any of these powers to be exercised by Holyrood, you want them | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
to stay in Brussels. We have a UK Government deciding and debating the | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
Scotland whether it comes to agriculture fisheries. Fisheries was | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
described as expendable by the UK in negotiations. You are talking about | :44:04. | :44:11. | |
the 70s. Some of the grievances are more recent. The idea of the UK | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
Government will go into Brexit negotiations and they only started | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
when the letter goes in next Wednesday. They haven't even | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
started. My concern will be what will be UK Government be able to | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
sacrifice to get the deal would be other EU countries that don't want | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
them to get a better deal than they currently have? That is the worry we | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
have for devolved competencies we have already and we have to protect | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
them. We need to be part of the process. When powers are re-pre- -- | :44:40. | :45:02. | |
repatriated to the UK that a number of those powers will come to us as | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
MSPs in Holyrood and come to the Scottish Government. Some of them | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
will be retained at the UK level. There are number of things that are | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
currently reserved under the Scotland act. What is devolves will | :45:19. | :45:26. | |
come to us and what is reserved will go to Westminster. The common | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
agricultural policy... Will there be a UK replacement for it? What it | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
agricultural policy... Will there be does is it deals with agricultural | :45:39. | :45:46. | |
holdings, or so products safety, consumer protection, labelling, a | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
range of issues. Some of them under the Scotland act are reserved to | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
Westminster and some of them are devolved. There will be no repeat | :45:55. | :46:03. | |
reservation from powers from Holyrood to Westminster. No powers | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
will be taken away from the Scottish Parliament as a result of Brexit and | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
it is an inevitable consequence of Brexit that the Scottish Parliament | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
will become even more powerful than it currently is. Let me go to | :46:15. | :46:22. | |
another question from Dean Brown. What impact will Brexit have on | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
European Union nationals working in the UK? We currently have 181,000 EU | :46:30. | :46:37. | |
nationals living and working in Scotland and it is not just the jobs | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
they provide, it is the support that they have the Scottish businesses | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
that depend on EU nationals working there. If there is no guarantee, | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
which there is not as of now, as of Monday the Westminster government | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
and the Conservative government chose to vote against giving EU | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
nationals, who are human beings in our society, any guarantees at all. | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
How can they do that when they don't have similar guarantees the UK | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
nationals in EU countries? One of the things I think we agree in the | :47:10. | :47:17. | |
negotiation, if you are negotiating with 27 other countries, having a | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
bit of decency and respect for their nationals is the starting point. We | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
cannot have them used as bargaining chips. If she thinks that is to our | :47:27. | :47:35. | |
advantage, she is mistaken. More importantly, that is not the kind of | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
country I want to be part of, treating people in this inhumane | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
way. We told it will be one of them first areas to be dealt with once | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
discussions get under way, but was it a mistake for the Prime Minister | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
not to say, those here now will be entitled to say? What she has | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
clearly said is that she wants to be able to make that guarantee is as | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
soon as possible in the process of negotiations but it is not | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
appropriate until the guarantee is reciprocated by the EU with regard | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
to the 2 million British people living elsewhere. Fiona and I | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
disagree profoundly about all sorts of things in politics but we don't | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
disagree much on this question. My view is clearly and a few of my | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
party is clearly that immigration enriches our nation in Scotland, not | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
only in terms of the labour market but in terms of culture, the area | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
that Fyona is responsible for in the Scottish Government, my wife is an | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
immigrant, my agent in the election campaign last year was an immigrant, | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
many of the students I have taught, I taught European law in the | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
University of Glasgow and elsewhere, many of them and indeed many of my | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
colleagues on campus were from Europe and elsewhere. I want the | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
Prime Minister to be able to make that guarantee as soon as she | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
possibly can but we can't do it unilaterally, it has to be | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
reciprocal. The hold-up is not in rotation hands, it is the EU who for | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
reasons of their own are refusing to negotiate until Article 50 goes | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
ahead. -- in our our own hands. That is the procedure, isn't it? It is | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
unfortunate that the procedure has stopped those guarantees being | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
given. It is not just about the EU nationals that they hear that we | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
want to stay, it is future EU nationals that are so vital to our | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
health service and universities, what happens to future EU nationals. | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
Particularly if you are an EU national or you have personal | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
experience of a family member or a relative in that position... The | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
lady in the front row with the black and white top first of all. My | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
husband is French and has lived here the 27 years, we have been married | :49:59. | :50:09. | |
for eight years. I am British. He would have to go, I would want to | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
go. We couldn't go to Europe. Where do you suggest we go? How do you | :50:14. | :50:22. | |
feel about it? It is causing real problems health-wise because it is a | :50:23. | :50:32. | |
big, big decision. We can't go to Europe because he is French, I am | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
British. We could go to Cape Verde, cell our house. Nobody is saying you | :50:39. | :50:45. | |
and your husband can't stay in the UK. What the Prime Minister is | :50:46. | :50:47. | |
saying is that people like you husband and yourself, we want to be | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
able to give the guarantee as soon as is. Then give the guarantee. It | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
needs to be reciprocated, we have to million British people living | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
elsewhere in the EU. The lady in the back row. If you wanted to give the | :51:03. | :51:13. | |
guarantee, why don't you give it? As an EU citizen, to me that means you | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
are still open to a scenario where that scenario is not given because | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
of failure in negotiations, because of walking out without a deal, which | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
is part of the narrative. What is your personal experience? I am | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
Bulgarian. A lot of the narrative has been very negative, very | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
distressing. I am a teacher at university, there are a lot of | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
international students, a lot of worry, we have been called Barlow -- | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
bargaining chips, citizens of nowhere as part of the conference in | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
the autumn. It is very traumatic. But your hand up if you are from an | :51:54. | :52:02. | |
EU background. -- put your hand. In Italy there are over 100 British | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
lecturers who have not received equal treatment despite six | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
judgments of the European Court of Justice. I have had their salaries | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
recently cut by 50% and they are denied access to judicial review. | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
Mrs May is surely right in demanding a reciprocal agreement. | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
Let's come back to our panel and Fiona Hyslop. This is a central part | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
of the type of country we want to be, I think, our respect for EU | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
nationals etc. There is also an economic factor. If you want to be | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
the best at innovation and research, we rely on our universitiesmm | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
already be seeing the concerns that they have regarding collaborative | :52:49. | :52:50. | |
contracts internationally. They might not be getting the same | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
research contracts. The director of the Edinburgh international festival | :52:56. | :52:57. | |
is Irish and has expressed his concerns only this week in a | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
newspaper article. It is also about the jobs here. There are many | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
companies that are out with the EU that have based themselves in | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
Scotland precisely because we have access and are members of the single | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
market. So what do you think is going to happen, they won't be | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
allowed to stay? I was about to come onto the second part, EU nationals | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
want to come? Will they want to become and be part of our country? I | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
would want them to be. We are not sending out the right signal | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
whatsoever. Never mind the disadvantages in two years' time, | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
when the UK leaves. It is already having a negative impact on | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
Scotland. We want to be one of the world's beacons for free-trade, and | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
that includes trade in goods and services on campus and in cultural | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
things. If those are the signals that you're sending out, there is no | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
reason at all to believe, unless you just want to do Britain damn, that | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
Britain will be anything other than a welcoming place for migrants, | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
wherever you come from. It does not feel so just now. There is no need | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
for this to be a difficult point of the negotiations. There will be some | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
really difficult things to negotiate but this does not need to be one of | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
them. We are into the final minute or so. I wanted to ask you a quick | :54:14. | :54:20. | |
follow-up, Leave campaign, Michael Gove, who you supported for the | :54:21. | :54:22. | |
leadership of the Conservative Party, he also said that post-wrecks | :54:23. | :54:30. | |
act, Holyrood could have some say over immigration - will that happen? | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
I don't know whether that will happen or not. -- post-Brexit. But | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
what absolutely will happen is that the powers and shape and structure | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
what absolutely will happen is that of the Holyrood parliament will grow | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
as a result of Brexit. There will be powers repatriated from Brussels | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
which will come to Edinburgh and Holyrood. That is a given. Fiona | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
Hyslop, isn't it the case that the UK would be better placed to get the | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
best possible deal if people like you and the Scottish Government and | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
the other devolved administrations were working with the UK Government | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
and being part of the same team? Absolutely. Well, we have been and | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
we have been attending the joint ministerial committees. We expect | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
and we must be part of negotiations going forward. To many of our | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
industries depend on the European market and we need to make sure that | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
we are part of that trainer and I expect support from the | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
Conservatives in Scotland to remain as part of that negotiating | :55:24. | :55:33. | |
mechanism. Thank you both very much indeed. We're going to have to leave | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
it there. I would have loved to get more audience members in, but we are | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
at the end of our time. Let me thank those of you who are in the | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
audience, especially for those who asked questions. My thanks to Brexit | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
from the Scottish Government and Adam Tom kins from the Scottish | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
Conservative Party. And of course, thanks to you for following our | :55:52. | :55:52. | |
debate. Let's return to our political | :55:53. | :56:03. | |
editor Brian Taylor, There is a phrase in politics, | :56:04. | :56:15. | |
parity of esteem. Tonight, we saw parity of uncertainty. I | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
characterised the referendum 2014 is one of doubt and reassurance, doubts | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
from the pro-European side, leaving it to the others to offer | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
reassurance. This time it strikes me there is bounty of uncertainty, | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
there is doubt all around us to what Brexit means. Doubts offered by | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
those supporting the union, as to when any referendum might take | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
place, the terms of Scotland's potential membership of the European | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
Union, doubt upon doubt upon doubt. In those circumstances, you get the | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
Prime Minister saying, there is already doubt and uncertainty as a | :56:50. | :56:52. | |
consequence of Brexit, better to leave alone until that is resolved. | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
You get Nicola Sturgeon offering exactly the counterpoint, saying | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
there is doubt and uncertainty, and that independence would help resolve | :57:03. | :57:04. | |
that. So you have competing solutions being offered. | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
that. So you have competing briefly, tomorrow, MSPs back at | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
Holyrood for that vote? Yes, second day of debate. The greens will vote | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
with the SNP come there will be a majority. They will demand that | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
referendum, the transfer of those powers from the Prime Minister. The | :57:21. | :57:29. | |
Prime Minister will say no. Let's have a look at the weather. Good | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
evening. Some fairly disruptive wintry weather around this morning, | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
but equally, some rather pretty pictures coming in from our Weather | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
Watchers. Not so pretty if you are stuck in it, though. Through the | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
afternoon, the showers gave way to some sunshine. Some of them did hold | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
on across the far north. Tonight, cold and frosty, but that's not the | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
whole story. Low pressure pushing in across parts of England, which could | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
cause some issues across southern Scotland tomorrow. And this. In the | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
far north giving wet weather overnight. In between, largely dry, | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
hold, frosty, icy. Across parts of northern Aberdeenshire, across the | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
Northern Isles, wintry showers continuing. Elsewhere, largely dry | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
but it will be cold of temperatures in the countryside down to -6. | :58:18. | :58:25. | |
Tomorrow morning, in the south, that low pressure just getting into parts | :58:26. | :58:34. | |
of Dumfriesshire. From the central lowlands northwards, it's largely | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
dry with any showers tending to fade away. Across the south, by | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
mid-afternoon, still fairly cloudy. Still one or two wintry showers over | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
the host of and quite cold. On the north-easterly, that will feel quite | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
bitter. Up to Perthshire, some showers a easing away after being | :58:54. | :58:59. | |
quite heavily during the course of the morning of heading through the | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
rest of the afternoon into the evening, we start to see a change. | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
The wet weather tends to clear away. This is Thursday, largely dry and | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
fine and bright, with some sunshine. Still a few shows perhaps, though, | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
for Shetland. And this is why we are having the change. A big area of | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
high pressure from the Azores spreading all the way up to us here | :59:24. | :59:35. | |
in Scotland. That's Reporting Scotland. I will be live from | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
Holyrood tomorrow night for analysis of that Scottish vote on the | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
independence referendum. Join me for that if you can. Good evening. | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
The 24-year-old man has been charged with murder. | :59:51. | :59:52. | |
You made sure an innocent man is charged! | :59:53. | :59:55. |