28/03/2017 Reporting Scotland


28/03/2017

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but Westminster says no negotiations until Brexit is complete. Now we

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Welcome to a special edition of Reporting Scotland from Holyrood.

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Yes, 69, no 59. There were no abstentions...

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The Scottish Parliament votes for the right to hold a second

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This is simply about giving people in Scotland a choice. We agree that

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now was not the right time for that choice, but that choice should be

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available to people in Scotland. But tonight the UK government

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rejected Holyrood's call. We will be declining the request for

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a Section 30 to hold another independence referendum. We won't be

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making any negotiations until the Brexit process is complete.

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We'll speak live to the Deputy First Minister and the leader

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And we've also been asking what you think the future holds.

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These men know exactly where they want their balls to land. But what

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position do they think Scotland will be in in 2020?

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In other news, after the terrorist attack at Westminster, police

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The Scottish Parliament has voted in favour of asking Westminster

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for the powers to hold a second independence referendum.

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The vote in the chamber behind me followed a heated

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It ended 69 to 59 - with the Greens backing the SNP.

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The UK Government says there will be no negotiation until the Brexit

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process is complete. Our political editor

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Brian Taylor reports. From Beijing to Bute House, Chinese

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visitors to Edinburgh top-up their photograph collection. But this

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isn't a random stop. The tourists are well up on the controversy

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between Scotland and the UK. Nicola Sturgeon acknowledge that the

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argument was robust, and she urged an open and respectful approach. She

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said she wished the Prime Minister well in pursuing a Brexit steel, but

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that was matched with a warning. I simply want Scotland to have a

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choice when the time is right. I hope that the UK Government will

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respect the will of this Parliament. If it does so, I will enter

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discussion in good faith and with a willingness to compromise. However,

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if it chooses not to do so, I will return to the Parliament following

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the Easter recess to set up the steps that the Scottish Government

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will take to progress the will of Parliament. Ruth Davidson accused

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the SNP of devoting division and rancour. This is not a reasonable

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plan of a government, it is the SNP cooking at the same recipe for

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division. Taken to The Take the proposal, stay in the greens and

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bring to the boil. It might have worked once, but it stinks and the

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people of Scotland are not buying it. The First Minister says that

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Scotland must have the choice of independence, the Prime Minister

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says the focus must be on the Brexit deal for the whole UK. Two and

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transient leaders, says Kezia Dugdale. She argued firmly against a

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referendum. 85% voted in the last referendum and voted decisively to

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remain in the UK. That is the will of the people and it should be

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respected. My message to the First Minister remains unchanged. We are

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divided enough, do not divide us again. The Liberal Democrats say you

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don't fix Brexit by breaking the UK. The decision to withdraw from Europe

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broke my heart. As an internationalist, my response could

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never be too up sticks from the one union of nations I have left. The

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never be too up sticks from the one greens backed the SNP and insisted

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Brexited changed everything for Scotland. We face being dragged out

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Brexited changed everything for of the single market with no mandate

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from the people of the UK or Scotland. To the goats, SNP plus

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Green equals a majority demand Scotland. To the goats, SNP plus

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an independence referendum. -- the goats. Yes, 69. The motion as

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amended is agreed. Applause, cheers, but a solemn looking First Minister,

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perhaps pondering challenges ahead. Chief among them, convincing the

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Prime Minister to grant Holyrood the necessary powers. Despite an eye's

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majority, that will require persuasion, pressure and that will

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be complex. Not black and white. We have stalemate, what happens

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next? The room for leverage is limited because legal powers rest

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with the UK Government. Constitution is reserved to Westminster as part

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of the Scotland Act, that established Parliament behind me.

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Nicola Sturgeon could do three things. There is political

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persuasion in the party machine, the Parliamentary motions here at

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Holyrood and Westminster. What I want to hear mentioned is that it is

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being suggested by the Scottish Government is that the UK Government

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will require Scottish consent at various points or Scottish

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corporation at various points, a queer -- acquiescence, during

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Brexit, perhaps it could be withheld. You could call it work to

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rule. We are going to hear from the First Minister? She spoke shortly

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after the vote. I hope the United Kingdom government will respect the

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view of Parliament. This is simply about giving people in Scotland a

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choice. We agree that now is not the right time for the choice, but it

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should be available to people in Scotland when the terms of Brexit

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are clear. I look forward to discussions in the weeks ahead. Now,

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we seem to be having some noises tonight, I hope that you will bear

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with us. What has been a reaction from the UK Government? Fairly

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emphatic? Yes, Theresa May was in Glasgow, emphasising that there

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would be no referendum within the period of Brexit and beyond that.

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Allowing Brexit to settle down. We heard from David Mundell,

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emphasising that point, no referendum during the timetable set

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out by the First Minister, water 2018 to spring 2019, and, crucially,

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no negotiations whatsoever in the meantime. We need to know what the

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choices on offer are. Until the Brexit process is complete, people

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could not possibly know what the alternatives were. That is why we

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are saying no at this time. That is why we will not be entering into any

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negotiations at all until the Brexit process is complete. Now is the time

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for the Scottish Government to come together with the UK Government,

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worked together, to get the best possible deal for the UK, and that

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will mean for Scotland, as we leave the EU. Brian, for the moment, thank

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you. So, following this evening's vote

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the Scottish Government will write to the UK Government to formally

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request the power to hold an independence referendum

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between Autumn next year But the Prime Minister, Theresa May,

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has already made pretty clear So what now for the two

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sides in this debate? Our political correspondent,

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Glenn Campbell reports. Near Falkirk, voters have

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conflicting advice for the Prime Minister on how to deal with a

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formal request from the First Minister for the power to hold

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another independence vote. I think we have to wait and see what happens

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with Brexit. That is my bottom line. It just seems ludicrous to jump into

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a decision before we know exactly how it is going to pan out. I don't

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think she can say no, because, knowing the Scottish psyche, if she

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says no people up here are just going to be up in arms and say, OK,

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what right has she got to tell us what to do? But it doesn't look like

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Theresa May will feel obliged to bow to Hollywood's demands. If the Prime

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Minister will not budge, the Scottish Government could call a

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referendum anyway. But that would be open to legal challenge, and the

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chairman of the yes campaign in 2014 thinks it could go wrong. The

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problem there is, I think, that a lot of the unionist people, a lot of

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the people that voted no last time, will say stuff this referendum, we

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are not going to take part, and if there is a massive boycott, the

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result would be lacking in credibility. That would be a

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problem. What about having an early Holyrood election and making is the

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central issue? That is a possibility. I am not going to

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propose that at this stage. But it is maybe a possibility that the

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First Minister could keep open. The 2014 referendum took place after the

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UK and Scottish governments agreed the terms. SNP ministers want to

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replicate that. But this former Conservative adviser thinks Theresa

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May is in no rush to negotiate. We think that people do not want a

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referendum right now, including some Yes voters. If they can take this to

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the general election in 2020, and the Scottish election in 2021, they

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think they could make substantial gains. What they have to watch is

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the narrative of a London, Tory Government saying no to something

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the Scottish Parliament has voted for. It could have severe long-term

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consequences. Might it be in the Prime Minister's entrusts a

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compromise? She may not need to get Nicola Sturgeon onside, but it would

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help her to not have this constant issue in the background as she is

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trying to conduct those negotiations. One way to avoid that

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being a major distraction is to have some sort of agreement for a

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referendum at some point in future, after the negotiations are complete.

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That space for a deal remains. But, right now, the two sides seem as far

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apart as ever. I'm joined now by the Deputy First

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Minister, John Swinney. You've won the vote,

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but there's also been an emphatic response -

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no negotiation until Brexit Scottish Parliament has taken a

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clear decision tonight to instruct the Scottish Government to embark on

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negotiations with the UK Government to take forward the process of

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establishing an independence referendum. That is the clear will

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of Parliament. It emerges from the commitment we gave to the public

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that if there was a material change in circumstances from 2014, such as

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Scotland being dragged out of the EU against our will, that Parliament

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should have the right to seek that opportunity for Scotland to choose

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her own future. We will now embark on that with the UK Government and

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aim to persuade the UK Government that the people of Scotland are

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entitled to have a choice about two very different futures. You are

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going to write a letter, what is in it? We will set out our demand to

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take forward the proposal that has been agreed by the Scottish

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parliament. They have said no, are you offering options? What we have

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said is that there is an opportunity to discuss the detail of how we go

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about this process. But the Prime Minister has been very clear, in 18

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months' time, the details of the Brexit negotiation will be complete.

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It will then be available for European parliaments around the

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continent to ratify the agreement and to consider that agreement. We

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believe in that window there is an opportunity between the autumn of

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2018 and the spring of 2019 for the people of Scotland to be given a

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choice about two different futures. One, a hard Brexit offered by

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Theresa May, or the opportunity of independence, offered by the

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Scottish Government. We already know West Minster's answer, so what can

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you do? Will you countenance another Scottish election? We need to do

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engage in that discussion. I'm sorry, if they say there is no

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discussion, I have to press you on sorry, if they say there is no

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this, you say the vote today is the will of the Scottish people,

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Scottish people watching tonight would like to know what options you

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are considering. Can you at least tell them that? What we have said

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first of all, what the First Minister said is that we encourage

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the Prime Minister in the discussions she has to take forward

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tomorrow but the triggering of Article 50, and we wish her well in

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that process, we set out the position of the Scottish parliament,

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agreed democratically by elected representative tonight, and we will

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engage in discussions with the UK Government and key Parliament

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updated about the steps we can take. I think it is important that, on an

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evening like this, when Parliament has decided clearly there should be

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this process embarked on to establish a second referendum, we

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should have the opportunity to take that forward in discussion with the

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UK Government, that is what the Scottish Government will do. When

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the Scottish Government has missed its cancer waiting targets for the

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fourth year running, and education standards, as you know, have been

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falling, your opponents say what we do not need is another two years of

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campaigning, the Scottish Government should get on with leading the

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country. What is your response? Across a whole range of areas of

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policy, the Scottish Government take steps to strengthen public services.

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In A, we had leadership over a 22 month period... 22 months of the

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best accident and the agency figures in the United Kingdom. In Scotland,

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a rising proportion of exam success for young people. For ministers in

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the Scottish Government, like me, we are focused entirely on education

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and making sure we take forward that agenda. But we also want to make

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sure the Scottish Parliament has the opportunity to shape a future for

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Scotland which is an outward looking future, able to participate with

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other countries. We have run out of time, I take it you will not tell us

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what is in that letter and what the options are.

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Let's go to Westminster and to our correspondent David Porter.

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David, has the UK Government seems to be hardening its line?

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You I think there is. A pretty blunt uncompromising reaction from the UK

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Government. No-one here at Westminster thought for anyway that

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the vote would not go the way it went today so. That to some extent

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has been factdorred into the response. What has struck me is the

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strength of the pushback wave had from the UK Government tonight.

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Previously Theresa May had said - now is not the right time. What UK

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ministers are now hinting at and saying is - now is not the right

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time and it may not be the right time for a number of years to come.

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They are trying to push this in effect, into the long grass. Some

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ministers privately are saying - you would not be wrong if you were

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speculating that they would not want any second Scottish independence

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referendum before the next Holyrood election. That could push it back as

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far as 2021. Thank you, very much David Porter at

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Westminster The Scottish Conservative leader

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Ruth Davidson joins me now. The Scottish Secretary has

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emphatically ruled out any negotiations on independence

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until Brexit is complete, so if not now, when? Well Nicola

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Sturgeon, didn't pen out a timetable. It is talking about

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principle. You cannot ask the people of Scotland to vote in a referendum

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when they don't know what they are voting for, they don't know what

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Brexit or independence looks like. That has not been made clear, nor

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should you vote or ask people to vote again in a referendum when the

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majority of Scots don't want to. We don't want dragged back to the

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decision we made three years ago and that we were told would be respected

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and respected for a generation. The Prime Minister herself said the deal

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would almost be done by spring 2019 and that is, Nicola Sturgeon's

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timetable? Well the Prime Minister has said what we already knew, which

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is that in two years, from Article 50 being moved, we will have left

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the European Union. Now there are many things that we won't know, we

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won't know if there are transitional arrangements or if powers are being

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repatriated from boroughsles, how they are going to be re-repatriated,

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if you like to the different devolved administrations and how. We

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don't know how it is working on the ground and we haven't heard from the

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other side, from the SNP basic questions about what independence

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looks like. They are saying leaving the European Union, is the basis for

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another referendum that they promised people of Scotland they

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wouldn't have for a generation but they are not talking about whether

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they would go in as full members of the European Union or about the

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currency. And if we stuck to the first ministers' timetable of a

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referendum in 18 months, she would have her campaigners on the street

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by tomorrow, they would be on the doors by the weekend. Some are here

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tonight. You might not agree with the vote in the Parliament today but

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isn't it disrespectful not to give a date just to say - not now, maybe

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later Well, look, I have always agreed with the self-determination

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of the Scottish people. That's why at the last referendum, when there

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was a clear mandate, there was a Government that won a majority, that

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there was - I voted along West Africary single other MSP, in the

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Parliament behind us, to have it. It was 92% support across the country.

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Oh, the chorus has started up but there was agreement across Scotland.

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At the moment we have division, we have a Government that lost its

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mandate, its majority. We have a split Parliament in there and we

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have a majority of Scots that don't want this and we don't know what we

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are being asked to vote on. Article 50 hasn't been moved yet and they

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start a campaign tomorrow. Brexit will be triggered tomorrow and

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Theresa May said there would be an agreed UK position before it is

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triggered. Is there? Theresa May has worked incredibly hard. There has

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been joint ministerial meetings. Has the Westminster Government responded

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to the Scottish Government document, its place in Europe. Has it formally

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responded? Well, it is about to go into a formal response but it has

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responded to the questions that are in there. There were lots that the

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SNP specifically asked for. When the Prime Minister laid out her

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Lancaster House Speke speech with 12 key planks of how she was going to

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Lancaster House Speke speech with 12 be negotiate Brexit there were key

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asks from the SNP in there. They asked for coordination, on crime and

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intelligence, workers' rights. I interrupted John Swinney and I'll

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have to do the same to you. We are running out of time. You are very

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welcome. Today's vote at Holyrood

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was held back from last week following the terrorist attack

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on Westminster, which included the murder of police

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constable Keith Palmer. Today, Police Scotland has deployed

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officers armed with Tasers Senior officers insist it's not

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in response to any specific threat. Our home affairs correspondent

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Reevel Alderson reports. Firearms officers are to be on duty

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24 hours a day at Holyrood but they'll only be armed with Tasers.

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Armed response officers with more lethal we are already on routine

:19:50.:19:54.

patrol around the area and on other iconic locations throughout Scotland

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T follow a review of security in the wake of the Westminster attack. I'm

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not suggesting for a minute that we jump straight into arming the

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police. But rank and file police, meeting in annual conference, heard

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calls for all officers to be armed. They asked a series of questions of

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the Government 679 Do we have ready access to specialist firearms

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officers and firearms? What impact is the financial cuts having on

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these specialist officers and their equipment? And when the Government

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said they expected more for less, what did they mean? What more can an

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officer give than his life? Surely they didn't mean that. The

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conference heard unarmed police were often sent to firearms incidents.

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Members called for the equipment they need to protect themselves and

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the public even if it meant being armed. We know that society in

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Scotland is maybe not ready for that particular step but there has to be

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an education programme taking place, there has to be an understanding

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that police officers put their lives at risk every day and if we ask the

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police to protect the politic we have to ask the question - how do we

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protect the police? Police Scotland now has 600 officers, trained to

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deal with any firearms incident. The number of armed response vehicles

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available almost trebled in the past number of armed response vehicles

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six months. Senior officers said the security threat was under constant

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review, based on intelligence here and the wider UK. What you see in

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review, based on intelligence here Holyrood today is a were you dented

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measure, operational contingency not in relation to any threat. I can

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reassure people that we constantly practice our test and response in

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times of crisis or extreme need and what you have seen over the last few

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days, is those plans kicking into place, at speed and without any

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hesitation, right across Scotland. Armed officers in Aberdeen this

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afternoon. It wasn't a firearms incident, but this may become a more

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common sight across Scotland. Let's get the weather

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now and Christopher Good evening. Some sunshine around

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for some of us. Beautiful blue skies Good evening. Some sunshine around

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in the north-west but many of us had cloudier conditions. Tonight

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outbreaks of rain moving their way northwards. Now here it is satellite

:22:03.:22:06.

from earlier. You can see where it was sunny and also the rain edging

:22:07.:22:10.

from the south-west moving its way through the central belt as I speak.

:22:11.:22:14.

Let's look at the forecast and you can see the rain continuing to edge

:22:15.:22:18.

its way northwards tonight. Overnight most of the weather

:22:19.:22:22.

tending to fizzle away to leave most areas dry by the end of the night

:22:23.:22:25.

but still fairly cloudy. Reasonably mild. Temperatures here in towns and

:22:26.:22:32.

cities, you will notice colder for Shetland with colder conditions.

:22:33.:22:35.

Tomorrow gets off to a cloudy but largely dry start. Perhaps the odd

:22:36.:22:38.

brighter moment inspect morning, mist and fog around, too. Then it

:22:39.:22:44.

turns wet. Winds again bands of rain moving north and north-eastwards

:22:45.:22:47.

through the course of the day. So after a dry start for many, expect

:22:48.:22:51.

things to turn wet. Here is mid-afternoon and you can see amass

:22:52.:22:54.

many parts of the country, fairly cloudy and damp. There'll be some

:22:55.:22:59.

breaks in the rain at times and certainly across south facing hills

:23:00.:23:03.

that rain quite moderate. Reasonably mile, double digits for many. The

:23:04.:23:10.

further north you are, the drier it'll be for longer certainly for

:23:11.:23:14.

Aberdeenshire and Orkney and Shetland, brightness there but the

:23:15.:23:16.

fresh south easterly winds will be apparent. Now the rest of the

:23:17.:23:19.

afternoon and into the evening and overnight, the rain still with us

:23:20.:23:22.

for a time, slowly slowly clearing away and as we head through towards

:23:23.:23:26.

Thursday, well, there's some more wet weather in the forecast, coming

:23:27.:23:30.

up from the south. Relatively mild direction but it will be a includy

:23:31.:23:34.

and a wet start to Thursday. A slow improvement, that rain could take a

:23:35.:23:37.

time to clear but hopefully brightening up as we head through

:23:38.:23:41.

towards the afternoon. That's the forecast for now. Back to Jackie in

:23:42.:23:44.

Edinburgh. We've heard from the politicians

:23:45.:23:46.

but it's voters who matter. Our reporters have been out

:23:47.:23:49.

and about throughout the day to see where you think Scotland

:23:50.:23:52.

will be in 2020. It's decision day in Holyrood. In a

:23:53.:24:04.

country we cannot avoid change but we can choose... Well, another day

:24:05.:24:07.

country we cannot avoid change but of headlines on independence or

:24:08.:24:10.

Brexit. An awful lot for people to take in. We are heading over to

:24:11.:24:15.

gallow shields, which is the largest down in thor borders, so let's find

:24:16.:24:19.

out what they are thinking now. I think it'll be part of the UK in

:24:20.:24:25.

Brexit. I would rather it was independent but I've go the a

:24:26.:24:28.

feeling it'll still be part of the UK. Just everything is up in the

:24:29.:24:30.

air. There is nothing certain. Nothing is for sure. So everybody is

:24:31.:24:37.

kind of - I don't know, like you say nervous and anxious. I would hope it

:24:38.:24:42.

would look very much the same as it is now. I was happy with the status

:24:43.:24:46.

quo in the country. I think we'll have chal edges with trade and what

:24:47.:24:50.

have you moving forward but I wouldn't say I'm particularly

:24:51.:24:52.

worried about the situation just now. Well Well it is just after 11s

:24:53.:24:58.

here at the senior men's bowling in Falkirk. These men know exactly

:24:59.:25:02.

where they want their bowls tloond, but what position do they think

:25:03.:25:07.

Scotland will be in in 2020? I think the younger generation will see more

:25:08.:25:11.

changes into the future. I think for us as an older generation, I don't

:25:12.:25:16.

think life is going to change massively in the next three or four

:25:17.:25:21.

years. I particularly don't want another referendum but that's my own

:25:22.:25:26.

view. I think it's very difficult to say where we'll be. I know where I'd

:25:27.:25:32.

like us to be and that is as part of the UK and well and truly out of

:25:33.:25:37.

Europe. It's a busy lunchtime in Aberdeen,

:25:38.:25:41.

office workers have escaped their dressk, grabbed something to eat and

:25:42.:25:44.

are chewing over what Scotland might look like in 2020. I think it will

:25:45.:25:48.

be an independent country. Personally I would prefer it to be

:25:49.:25:53.

independent of Brussels as well as Westminster. I just don't see the

:25:54.:25:58.

point in kind of being independent of the UK but then being members of

:25:59.:26:04.

the EU again and sort of being governed by their legislation. I

:26:05.:26:09.

hope we are still part of the UK and I'm sorry to say I wish we could

:26:10.:26:13.

still be part of Europe although I can't see a way this would happen.

:26:14.:26:27.

Here at a joiny contractors' workshop outside Inverness it is

:26:28.:26:30.

close to the end. Afternoon, the guys here will soon be clocking off.

:26:31.:26:33.

They are joiners, but are they Remainers or Levers? The way I see

:26:34.:26:37.

it, I don't see why we should be having another chance at it.

:26:38.:26:41.

Personally I would like to leave the European Union. That's why I'm on

:26:42.:26:44.

the fence on triggering the second referendum, so we can stay in Europe

:26:45.:26:48.

doesn't wash with me. Well that's our one-day road trip through

:26:49.:26:52.

Scotland almost complete. The political and constitutional

:26:53.:26:54.

journey, though, is only just beginning. And Brian joins me again,

:26:55.:27:02.

Brian, you would echo those thoughts, the journey is just

:27:03.:27:05.

beginning? Yes, it is a week of beginnings, a significant vote

:27:06.:27:07.

tonight in the Scottish Parliament. Tomorrow the triggering of Article

:27:08.:27:10.

50. On Thursday a white paper setting out ways in which the laws

:27:11.:27:14.

of the European Union could be repatriated to the UK and presumably

:27:15.:27:17.

also to the devolved territories but it is also about those voters. I

:27:18.:27:23.

mean, there will be legal argument, there will be parliamentary motions,

:27:24.:27:25.

cajoling and persuasion but what we actually have, what we actually have

:27:26.:27:30.

is competing claims by competing government, the Scottish and UK

:27:31.:27:32.

governments, competing for the attention of those voters, each

:27:33.:27:36.

seeking to persuade that they, the Scottish Government or the UK

:27:37.:27:38.

Government, have got the approach right. I think we'll be back to you

:27:39.:27:43.

pretty soon. Thank you very much for summing that up and for your

:27:44.:27:48.

And that's Reporting Scotland on another day of huge

:27:49.:27:56.

constitutional significance regarding Scotland's

:27:57.:27:56.

Join us tomorrow when I'll be at Westminster reporting

:27:57.:28:00.

on Scotland's place in a changing Europe.

:28:01.:28:02.

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