17/06/2014 Scotland 2014

When a tragedy then becomes a scandal there are always major

Today the parents at the centre of the baby ashes scandal are

It?s hard to imagine how anything could make losing a baby worse.

Bereaved parents who were then denied

their baby's ashes say that loss made their suffering much worse.

As the government today pledge to investigate every individual case,

we hear from the woman who first uncovered the scandal.

The grey man, former Prime Minister John Major in Edinburgh to warn

Scotland of possible irrelevance if we vote for independence.

And our referendum correspondent, Laura Bicker,

We follow her as she swims the Atlantic and speaks to people

It's been a long road for the hundreds of families

Today they have what they always hoped for - a national investigation

into what happened to their children's remains.

This story begins in 2012 when it emerged that families whose babies

had been committed here at Mortonhall were told that there were

no Ashes but in fact, ashes had been recovered and disposed of. Quickly,

story spread. Concerns them were raised at Aberdeen. This became a

national scandal. Dame Elish Angiolini held an enquiry into what

happened in Edinburgh. The report said should be a clear definition of

what is by ashes. The legislation is needed to ensure that babies under

24 weeks are treated properly. Cremation forms should properly give

parents a clear choice. The government has accepted all 67

recommendations but it became clear today that the investigation is not

over. The investigation team will look at Scotland wide, with a focus

on Aberdeen. Some parents will never know what happened to their children

but I hope that those parents will recognise that we will do all that

we can to get those answers for them. I hope that all parents will

recognise the important legacy of the last 18 months, that this will

never happen again. What started with one case in Edinburgh has

become a national scandal but many families are still waiting for

answers. I?m joined this evening by the

lawyer who represents over 200 Today's announcement is a positive

step forward and the families that I represent are happy with the

outcome. You had been calling for a public enquiry as that was the only

way to have enough power to drag the information out of local authorities

who have been reluctant. That is absolutely correct. Until now, I

have been seeing that the public enquiry was the only way to go but

we have to think about what it is that families are looking for. They

want to ensure that every fact that possibly it does come out. They want

to ensure that the stories are told that no stone is left unturned. We

were promised today that is what will come out of the national

investigation team to be cheered by Dame Elish Angiolini. She did a very

thorough job in Edinburgh. We welcome it and we will work with it.

We trust that will be the outcome. The dialogue that has been going on

with the Scottish Government, a very open dialogue, we have responded

very positively today. For a lot of families, they will never be any

answers to what happened to the children's remains no matter how

hard Dame Elish Angiolini looks at it. That would appear to be the

case. Each and every family will have to face that as that may arise.

What we do know from today is that the individual circumstances will be

fully, thoroughly and forensically investigated. Nobody has been held

to account yet. We have not seen anybody punished. We have not seen

anybody prosecuted. What we did see with the report that Dame Elish

Angiolini report -- issued in relation to Mortonhall is that she

pulled no punches. She did not hesitate in criticising people. That

is what the families are looking for now on the Scottish wide basis.

Thank you for coming in to talk to us tonight.

The baby ashes story started when one bereaved Edinburgh mother

asked questions about what had happened to her daughters remains

Dorothy Maitland sparked the investigation that led directly

Earlier today I met her in Edinburgh and began by asking her how she

a council official told her that, contrary to everything she had been

told, her daughter Kaelen's ashes were buried at Mortonhall.

I was absolutely gobsmacked for him to tell me that our ashes were

interred in the garden of remembrance after 26 years of

believing that the was no Ashes. For the best part of two years, this is

taking over your life since you have made the discovery about what

happened to Kaelen. What has it been like for your family? It has been

difficult. Kaelen was a twin. There was also another brother and sister

who had to see the offer with all of the media interest as well as give

even for the sister. They did not know what would come out about the

Ashes. It has had quite an effect as a family but we have all supported

each other. We have been very strong through it. It has been difficult

for resolve. -- difficult for all of us. We now have to move on from it.

You have spoken to families who have made the same discovery as you, what

impact did it have? It is taken as all back to square one. It is quite

unbelievable the grief that it is brought back for all abuzz. It has

been a difficult period. Did you ever see yourself as a national

campaigner who would lead a campaign like this? Absolutely not. I did not

believe for one minute after having that conversation that this would

open such a can of worms. A national enquiry has been ordered now on the

basis of your personal discovery. Is that gratifying that people are

taking it seriously or is it frightening that such a huge thing

has grown? At the start of it, it was quite frightening when you

realised how big this is becoming. At the end of the day, it gives me

comfort to know that this will not happen again. That parents will not

have to go through what myself and other parents have had to go

through. I find that comforting. For parents like yourself, where nothing

can be done, what is the outcome you looking for? We feel that we want to

move on and try to heal. It has been a very difficult couple of years but

I think it has been worth it and that Dame Elish Angiolini

divisibility honest report. That is what we asked for, the truth. I

think we got the truth. Legislation will change. -- a very honest

report. Nobody has been held account for this. Would it be disappointing

if nobody was punished? For many families it would be disappointing.

For me, I'm just satisfied with the fact that things are going to

change. I'm pleased about that. There is a lot of families who

discovered that similar things happen to them and they couldn't

kick the babies remains but they were denied that opportunity, the

possibly need never have known this at the scandal had not opened up. It

put them through a grieving process, that maybe it would be

better ignored? Some people think it should not have been spoken about

but that is very old-fashioned and very to do. The majority of parents

that I have been involved with, as much as it has been very upsetting

for them, they are glad that they know the truth. Do you sometimes

wish you had never found out what happened to your daughter? They were

times during the 19 pains that I felt, what have I done? -- during

the 19 months. I think it is a legacy that made daughter was only

here for nine days but she has left a huge legacy.

This lunchtime the parly hacks that haunt

the corridors of Holyrood sat down to a speech by the grey man, former

The political editor of the Scottish Daily Mail, Alan Roden, was there.

It was pretty strong stuff. Scotland will be irrelevant if they voted for

independence. Lack of the queue to join the European union. How did

that go down with journalists? He was a man who spoke his mind and it

was fascinating to listen to him. What will dominate the newspapers is

the taming of the referendum comments. He said that this year was

chosen in 2014 because it coincides with the 700th anniversary of

Bannockburn which will be celebrated next week. He said it is an attempt

to capitalise on anti-English sentiment in Scotland. That is his

words and not mine. He was having to walk a tricky line about in hands

powers for demolition because he was famously against devolution, he

called a teenage madness when he was Prime Minister. He now has

words and not mine. He was having to walk a to say that the Tory party

are in favour of devolved powers, how did you square that logic?

Today, he described the Scotland act that created the parliament as one

of the worst pieces of legislation for the last 30 years. He did not

quite support -- quite explain how he made that journey. It was a

question for another time. He was adamant that there will be for

another time. He was adamant that there will be whenever English

Tories come north of the border, the Yes campaign see it gathers more

support for them than it does for the Better Together campaign. The

journalists came out quite well today.

We like to set our reporters a bit of a challenge on Scotland

2014 so when we heard our Referendum Correspondent Laura

Bicker was into Triathlon we sent her off to cycle, run

Tonight we focus on the swim and her journey on Lewis as she

looks at the impact independence could have on our waters.

If you are going to talk about managing Scottish waters, you might

as well dive right in. The shifting sands beneath the

harbour a hidden treasure, valuable fishing grounds. Here is a balance

to be struck over detecting these waters and earning a living from

them. The team I am swimming worth now every twist and turn of the

current, but when it comes to the referendum... I could do with more

clarity. About what is what. Myself, I do not feel that I know much about

what is going on. We are one of the last places in the UK and in

Scotland. We need to look after those wild places. With the wet suit

off and in dry clothes, I in Stornoway where the fishing fleet is

geared towards catching prawns, a growing trend in Scotland. This is a

new vessel in today, just purchased and registered to fish. Half of this

pain will be spent in English waters. After the referendum, if

they went for the yes vote, I think it would be... Why do you go into

English waters quit at certain times of the year, it is better for us to

fish in different areas to maximise our days at sea -- why do you go

into English waters? The EU places limits on the amount fishermen can

catch. All to protect stocks. They are also told how many days a year

they can head out to sea. Donald believes independence will bring

change and would put Scotland in a stronger position to negotiate. It

would make things better and easier for fishermen. The legislation in

place frustrates you. We are not looking to do harm. We just enjoy

going out and the hunting instinct. Nothing better than getting a good

catch. Makes you feel good. The next generation looking for a catch come

here to learn their trade. Some hope to work on bigger boats. A bigger

challenge with bigger rural wards. Donald is 15 and he misses out on a

vote in the referendum by four days. He is back from a trip to the Faroe

Islands where he had to throw away his catch to keep to a quota. Quite

annoying when you have big fish coming over the rail and you have to

throw them back again. They are dead when they come over so they do not

survive it. Round the back and up. You pull it tight. You are saying I

am not very good at making a net! Others know the challenges they

face, but deciding who should be in charge of negotiating a better deal

is difficult. What would you like to see done about it? I would like

Scotland to have their own borders. The small boats would have access

because just now it is only the trawlers and that which can land

mackerel and herring. That is a different league to the little

boats. Thousands of pounds for one time. -- one time.

What is clear is that both sides of this debate want change. What they

cannot agree on is if independents will turn the tide for both fish and

fleet. The hardy

Laura Bicker there. And follow her triathlon adventure with the second

instalment, cycling in Harris on Thursday. But

in the meantime, in our Edinburgh studios, we have the Lib Dem

Shetland MSP Tavish Stock. And the North East Scotland SNP MSP

Christian Allard who worked in the Scottish fishing industry for many

years before joining Parliament. Which of the fishermen was right?

Stay in the UK to protect fishing rights and another thought an

independent Scotland would negotiate better fishing rights in the EU. I

would like to congratulate the BBC for the fantastic piece from Laura.

It is encouraging to see young fishermen ready to go out to see

Billy McReddie C. We are going to see an end to the discards -- going

out to sea. There is a great future for the fishing industry. To a

certain extent, I can hear the two sides of the argument. Who do you

trust best to look after Scottish waters? The people in Edinburgh or

the people in London? The last 40 years, Westminster has not been good

enough for us and not good enough for the fishing industry. The

Westminster government 40 years ago said about the Scottish vitamin,

they said they were expendable -- the Scottish fishermen. There is no

change. If we want change and there is only one way, vote yes. Tavish

Scott says it is about who you trust. -- Tavish Scott, Christian

Allard says it is about who you trust. It is also about the

difference between the UK Government and the Scottish Government and

since the Nationalists have been in power since 2007, you cannot put

April on between the statements they have made at the fisheries Council

outcome in December between them and the UK Government -- put a prawn.

When I read the press releases by the Scottish comedy and UK

Government, they say the same thing. They take credit for the

negotiations. These arguments that the UK Government do not do what

Scottish fishermen want would not be recognised in many places and they

are certainly not recognised in Lowick. The idea everything is bad

in London and nothing is good about any negotiation misses the point.

The problem is the Common Fisheries Policy and the keyword is common.

What Europe tries to do is impose a policy which is the same across the

entire EU. The one thing we might agree on is that it does not work

and what we need instead is a much more regional policy and one which

helps our fishermen in Scottish waters. As your young fishermen

recognise, our fishermen fish in foreign waters. That will be eight

difficult negotiation. -- a difficult negotiation. The UK has

more votes than an independent Scotland could ever hope to have. We

have the same amount of vote if not more because just now when the

Westminster government disagrees with the Scottish Government, we get

less vote because we have not got both. That will not change. Let me

put that to Tavish Scott. It is not true. The UK has more votes than a

smaller country. After all, the UK Government line when it comes to the

fisheries negotiation has to be agreed with Scottish fishermen,

whilst fishermen and Northern Ireland fishermen. That is a

position the Scottish Government says works. Why else would be press

releases that the Scottish fisheries minister puts out since 2007 say the

same as the UK Government fisheries minister? The argument is based on

assertion and bluff and bluster rather than facts which means that

Scotland works hard within the UK to achieve the best deal for fishermen.

It is not by any means always the deal we want but it is the best deal

we want given the Common Fisheries Policy. Thank you very much.

Now for a look at some of the most read stories

Al Jazeera has reported Foreign Secretary William Hague plans to

reopen the British Embassy in Tehran saying it is an important step

forward in British relations with Iran. The Telegraph online is

reporting the Chinese premier has said he wants to see a united UK. He

added China would respect the choice Scotland makes. BBC online has

revealed the UK Government says intelligence service GCHQ can

legally snoop on British citizens using Facebook and Google without a

warrant. Joining me for a look

at the biggest online news stories today is the screenwriter

Sergio Casci And back again, Alan Thank you both. The news that a lot

of the papers are leading on tonight is the Chinese premier saying a

United Kingdom is better united. He was to beside David Cameron as he

said it. Does it make much difference, Alan Roden, when someone

like the Chinese Prime Minister tells us we are better united? It is

not a game changer but it is interesting. China is a country that

Alex Salmond has been courting for many years. He has been over there

several times. His ministers have as well. Alex Salmond declined to meet

the dull alarm at recently to try to appease the Chinese -- Dalai llama.

The Chinese government said they will respect the choice of the

people of Scotland. Is Alex Salmond smarting a bit? It is no surprise.

He has issues of his own to deal with in China with Tibet. It is also

not a very good idea for the Better Together campaign to make to much of

this. The Scots do not like being told what to do even by such the

champion of democracy. A leader any House of Lords was on The Daily

Politics as afternoon and she had interesting thoughts about Alex

Salmond. I think the Scots are Lee led by a madman. Absolutely crazy

what they are trying to do -- the Scots are led by. I hope their

leader goes down, down, down. Can you get away with calling an elected

leader of Scotland Bay man mad -- Scotland chilly the lead at Scotland

a madman? The brownie points are used up. I do not think Alex Salmond

will be losing any sleep. Do you think the better together campaign

will be delighted? Alex Salmond is not mad. Perhaps his policies are

but it is a different argument. Is he going down if he loses the

referendum? People in Hollywood are saying he might have to go. If it is

a yes vote, David Cameron may have to go. Will one leader have to lose

their job? If there is a yes vote, David Cameron will have to go. If

there is a no vote, it is in the balance. A new survey has shown that

perhaps the Scots are not so worried about nuclear weapons. 41% of Scots

said Trident should stay. 37% say it should go. The SNP made a mistake in

assuming Scots are antinuclear. The problem is when you do not look at

the details, they asked particular questions to get particular answers.

It is generally accepted the Scots are against nuclear weapons. A lot

of assumptions are made about Scottish values and opinion polls do

not buy them out often. Opinion polls have shown that there are a

significant number of Scots who are OK about Trident. The SNP's notion

that we are a different country to England is completely wrong. And

others chilly another line so that two thirds say immigrants should

wait for benefits. Do you think we should claim Scots values are

different to the UK? When we come to vote, the Scots have different

political culture. The Scot philosophy tends to be more social

democratic. Is that true? I do not believe it at all. I think the

values we share across these nations are exactly identical. Is it a

fundamental mistake of the Yes campaign to tell us they are

different? Absolutely. Massive mistake. When UKIP won their first

seat in Scotland in the European elections was a sight to behold.

They thought UKIP would never get a seat and they were wrong. The more

we talk about Trident, the better it is for the Yes campaign. Thank you

very much. That is it from us. I will be back at the same time

tomorrow night. Do please join me then. Good night.